Going live.

You are?

I'm dead.

Going dead.

Today, uh, thank you for everyone who is here.

We're just gonna think out loud.

combining my experience of, uh, running and selling an event that

is hard to describe unless you've been there, and Ben's sort of

knowledge and expertise around just pricing things, and particularly

pricing, thinking about pricing in this case for emergent outcomes.

Mm-hmm.

So for those of you who may be coaches, who may be, are focused on creating events

that are much more about experiences, uh, and less about maybe learning and content.

Or even, actually I would, I was thinking about this, even people who are in

maybe the design space, um, where you're doing much more bespoke work where it

isn't much more about you learn along the way, what's gonna happen and what

you're gonna discover, what is the right thing, uh, that might be, I feel that

there might be a touch point there.

Uh, and just talking about how can we get some kind of confidence around

the prices we put on these things.

And I think a caveat for me is there's no objective number.

There's no objective measure that's gonna say this is, this is, should

be this, this kind of experience should be this amount of money.

Um, I had someone on LinkedIn reply to one of the posts saying, you know, this

is 10 times more valuable than I paid.

And it's kinda like, it's actually measurable to, to be

able to put, uh, the, the value of this event on, which is great.

But there, there's that real lovely validation around, but still the,

uh, the practical level, still gotta get a number and, and then there's

some considerations around how people respond and react to that number.

Mm-hmm.

So we're gonna have a, uh, an emergent conversation around this.

Uh, I need it 'cause it's be useful just to kind of think about our

pricing in a way and just feel, talk out loud about, you know, how, how

to think about pricing these things.

I think.

Anyone listening to this will need it because you'll get some, some, some

things to hold onto, to, to ground your way of thinking about pricing.

Uh, and Ben needs it 'cause he just needs to get all this knowledge out of his head.

Too much there.

It's too much.

Too much for, I've overflowing with knowledge,

Too much for one brain to cope with.

So we need you to suck it up and use it.

So, yeah, I, I dunno.

Ben, Ben, you had a, you, before we started, you, you had a thought around

this to begin with around, yeah.

I, I think it was like how you f what to focus on and maybe

there's a red herring here when we talked about life changing stuff.

Mm.

Yeah.

Um, so obviously the kind of theme for today's event was part of the

long planned calendar of, uh, uh, of activities and things that we had

sort of talked about, and it was just convenient that this theme came on

the back of the weekend of Summercamp.

Uh, just gone before it.

Um, so those things are obviously just a coincidence, a convenient coincidence.

Uh, but when I was reflecting on the convenient coincidence and we were

having this, talking about maybe the idea of how do you price someone like

this, I guess one of the thoughts in my mind was if I think about any

number of the conversations we had and you sort of introduced what the,

um, what the, the weekend was about for those people who weren't there.

You know, the in, in lots of different ways and I think about my own experience.

I think for lots and lots of people there, um, maybe everyone in their own way, I.

You know, there, there is something very transformative about being

there, and that's kind of one of the benefits, of course, of the

kind of intensity of it in a way.

You know, there's, you know, 150 whatever it is, all people, you know,

living, eating, sleeping together.

There's loads of sort of, uh, lit, not literally as far as I know, whatever.

Um, and you know, all the sort of talks, all the talks, and so got

a huge amount kind of going on.\

I know that I think about some of the conversations I had with people,

you know, people were making kind of, sort of breakthroughs in how

they thought about their work.

People were making breakthroughs in, you know, who they might work with.

And of course, some of those things have a number attached to them.

But equally other people, if I think about some of the people who, who kind of gave

talks like, uh, Chris who gave, you know, gave a talk, you know, there's these kind

of transformations, these breakthroughs come in all different shapes and sizes.

Sometimes it has a kind of number attached to it.

Sometimes it has, you know, it might be how they kind of think about their

own work or what's kind of going on.

And I, you know, also for me, it kind of felt transformative too in the sense

of there was a way of thinking before I went in and there's a way of thinking

when I came out in a, in a sense.

And so when we were talking about this, it's kind of interesting thinking,

well, you know, what price, all of that?

What price all of that?

And uh, when I was then reflecting on it before, we just had this, this

conversation now, and on the one hand you could go look at it and go, well, you

know, some this, you know, person X is now thinking about selling their thing

for 10 times more that has a financial number to it, so maybe a price should

reflect that or, or whatever it might be.

But then the kind of the, the kind of flip, which I think is what you were sort

of alluding to there, maybe actually, that this shouldn't, you know, that it is

a transformative, maybe, you know, that, you know, lives change essentially on,

on some of, as a result of, of attending.

Maybe that shouldn't be reflected in the price at all.

And maybe that's got, and that's just, that's like a, a visitor benefit.

That's a benefit of coming, you know, in, in the sense you and kind of Laurence,

you know, you put this on, you host it, you create this space and you know,

sure there are costs associated with it.

And there is a need also to, for Happy Startup School to

make income on the back of it.

But maybe.

That it generates all of this kind of, sort of transformative goodness.

That's just a benefit of being there and it should never be a consideration

when thinking about pricing.

Uh, or, or maybe not, you know, maybe, like I said, for some people

who are actually coming out with real tangible, kind of quantifiable

money benefits as a result of being there equally, maybe it should be.

So, I don't know.

They were the, the, the kind of two poles, if you like,

The principle that springs to mind.

I've learned from you.

Um, Ben is this idea of any purchasing decision is fraught with uncertainty.

And so, that's a guidance principle for me in terms of like, how do we

reduce the uncertainty around making an investment in something like this?

Mm-hmm.

And so on one hand, talking about life changing experiences, you could,

you could say beneficially Oh yes.

You know, that's an amazing thing because of course I want a life

changing experience, but then what number do I put on that?

Mm-hmm.

So there's another level of uncertainty there.

How do I quantify that?

It's like, oh my God, what kind of change is that gonna be?

I'm not going there.

I'm not going there.

But then also that's a self filtering thing.

Mm-hmm.

So again, this is such a, we can't necessarily stalk

to a pricing in isolation.

I think this is one of the things I wanted to maybe touch on here is like,

there is the story you tell around the experience as well as that point where you

are going to sign up to the experience, and it's at that point of signing up

to the experience where hopefully you are bought in to some of the changes

that you think are going to be created.

But there's still this thing, okay, how much is that worth to me?

Hmm.

And it's really hard to, to, uh, I think on one hand you.

You a simple way for some people to do, whether it's a product, uh, or a service,

the well-known service is, or commoditized service, like there's a market rate.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

We go, okay, compared to that piece of software, this one's a bit cheaper and

has a few more features, so it's great.

Well, with us, you know, it isn't like you've got a, a smorgasbord of

lots of different, similar events.

You know, there are similar events like ours, there's the Do Lectures

and I think there's a Good Life Project and there's, um, There's

another one similar to, I think there's good life projects in the US.

Think it's the same thing.

I can't remember what it's called here in the uk, but there's similar kinds

of events around there, all within that same kind of price bracket roundabout

between the grand to 1500 quid.

So there's a kind of a sense of like, oh, that seems like the kind

of price that people might pay.

But I think it still needs, well, I think to price, well, as I understand,

it still needs some work to help whoever's coming understand that

is a price that makes sense for me.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and another element of this is really complicated for us.

I would see, you know, on one hand, what does a life

changing event mean for people?

It could mean different things.

What are the outcomes that we're trying to create for people?

It could be very different.

We've had so many different types of outcomes from people who come to

Summercamp, and so there's not like a clear promise of a solution or.

Problem we can solve that is broadly applicable to everyone.

And so lots of different people have different senses of what they might

get or will get something different.

And then so we have different context.

So there's no, like, it's really hard to say there's a single

avatar or a single customer potentially that we could say, boom.

Mm-hmm.

That's the, that's the core customer.

But I feel there is some things that we can hold onto or we can start

holding onto in terms of what people will feel and how important it is

to have those kinds of feelings.

And, and I think, you know, to a certain level, it's nearly like

going on to an amazing holiday.

You know, are you worth an amazing holiday?

Like a question to people?

'cause then that feels like, um, this is such an investment in yourself and

not necessarily a tangible business, um, outcome, though it could be.

But I'm wondering if we, if we are able to talk more in those terms and

how you price those kinds of things.

Mm.

As a way of helping people get their heads around, okay, what

kind of language do I need to use?

How do I need to talk about, yeah, the number, or have conversations

with people so that they can start using the right anchor points, I

think is what I'm trying to get at.

Mm-hmm.

it seems, I think so.

Even in the examples that you gave, so yours, um, Do Lectures

and the good, good life one thingy.

Um, uh, but, so even with something like the Do Lectures, you can easily, you

can also buy a ticket, which is two and a half thousand, you know, so there is,

you know, there's quite a big range.

I mean, obviously they, they sort of, in some respects, sound like similar numbers.

But you know, there there's kind of a hundred percent

difference, isn't there, you know?

Um, and so, so there is quite a big range there.

But I guess what everybody's kind of doing in those things is, like

you're talking about, they're not really kind of pricing to outcome.

And it might just be, and I guess the kind of caveat coming into this whole

conversation, it might just be pricing to outcome is just not possible for a

thing that is given that everybody's kind of outcomes are, are so varied.

And, and what they, what, you know, those, you know, what the other

organizations are doing is they're finding other ways of getting people to

kind of segment, like I think, you know, like we Do Lectures, you can pay more

if you want to sleep in your own 10.

Not sleep with everybody as we spoke about before.

That's a whole different price.

Um, so what they're kind of doing is they, they are giving people an

opportunity to kind of put themselves different, but that's really not,

of course, not about outcome.

Uh, but I like what you're talking about there, you know, the, the kind

of feelings that you kind of get, how you might feel after a holiday, how you

might feel after you've kind of sort of taken yourself kind of, you, you kind

of disconnected the energy that you come back with the kind of will, the intent,

the, the kind of, you know, the, the kind of positivity you come back with.

Trying to talk a little bit more to those things.

I guess there's still a, the, the challenge a little bit then is still,

um, I guess finding some sort of commonality, uh, of, of experience,

some sort of commonality of feeling that people are gonna get to.

But like you sort of talked to, which I guess is also relevant to

some of the other things that you, you put on, yeah, you know, like you

say, you know, what price a holiday?

What price, taking a, you know, a kind of week out of your, of your schedule?

And I don't know, the, the kind of time is different, but, you know,

maybe that's actually how I feel coming back is I do feel the same.

As I would if I'd taken, taken a kind week out.

And so, like you said, maybe these kind of point to kind of anchors these point

to things you might kind of use as part of the story and the, the conversation to

frame why it's an appropriate investment.

That for me kind of links to the kind of, what's the cost of

not doing something like this.

Mm-hmm.

You know, what is it?

There's a reason why you, it might have come on your radar

and you peaked an interest.

And so, you know, for a lot of people they're uh, uh, a stage

where they're just, they're trying to look at some kind of change,

not maybe sure what it might be.

Just, uh, they know that kind of traditional business events aren't

necessarily for them 'cause they're all very much in their heads and it's

very about more and more content.

But at the same time, they want to learn something that might shift their mindset.

And so there is an element of If I don't start thinking about this and

if I don't spend some time doing this, and again, this is why I think it all

ties to the marketing and the story.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you know, I could read all, watch all the TED talks I want, I

could read all the self-help books I want, but I'm still doing it on my own.

I'm still going around in circles.

I still don't feel that visceral sense that change can happen because I'm not

really being inspired by people who feel like real people as opposed to authors

of massive books or people on the stage.

So being in a place, and I maybe I, I feed off the energy of real life people.

Being in a place like that, being able to tell the story of actually when you

are in nature with people who are also in the same kind of space, the energy

that you get, the, the epiphanies you're allowed to have, the space you're

allowed to have between the reading and the learning is much more valuable

than spending a year trying to do, kind of go through a whole set of self-help

books that you've got off the School of Life or trying to do all these kind

of like self-paced courses on your own.

And this could be the, the focal focus that would shortcut the next five years

of getting lost, trying to work out what, what it is you really wanna commit to.

One of the other things which, um, you just, I was reminded of as you were

talking there and that I was thinking about earlier, was this thing around, um,

you know, what we are willing to kind of invest in and our sort of willingness to

spend money in a sense being kind of a, a kind of point or the, the other side

of the coin, if you could sort of, excuse the pun, uh, for what, you know, what

equally might, might sort of come back.

And, and I was sort of thinking that actually 'cause this, you

know, it is an investment isn't it?

And I appreciate that's just a, a kind of a language thing.

But it is, it is an investment.

You know, if I'm thinking about those things, if I'm curious about,

I guess it depends, isn't it?

Because if I'm kind of, if I'm, if I'm just get, if I'm just getting curious, if

I'm just starting to ask myself, I feel like if I'm very much at the beginning

of a journey of kind of exploration, maybe I'd come to something like, um,

the, the Summercamp because it's a, it's a way of sort of stepping into that.

Or maybe I'm coming to Summercamp and, and I feel a little bit kind of, I feel at a

different point on that kind of journey.

And then it's about, you know, making an investment in this because it's

a commitment to myself that I'm really on this journey of change.

So, you know, part of me.

Investing the money to come and spend the weekend and all of those kind of

things is not necessarily just about sort of exposing me, but is like a, a

nod to myself that I'm kind of serious about this and I'm acting on it.

And then, you know, again, the, the kind of, the value of that is, is different

potentially to the person who feels a kind of different point on the journey.

I quite like this idea.

And for anyone who is like doing something similar where part of

the value for someone buying your work or buying what you're doing,

Is that commitment to themselves.

Mm-hmm.

And so there's that sense of accountability, a sense of

really stepping into this new direction that they want to take.

And yes, they could do it cheaper in inverted commas somewhere

else, but then that doesn't feel as strong as a commitment.

And again, there's that talking again.

It all depends on the people that you're trying to target and,

and, and, uh, bring on board.

But it, it's talking less, again, less about purely the content and

necessarily even just the outcomes, but just this whole idea of like, this

is a commitment to yourself, like I said, an investment in yourself, and

it's trying to tell the story of what is the return on that investment.

I think maybe that's part of this is like sometimes it isn't just about,

I fi an immediate financial return.

Mm-hmm.

Which is the easiest one to say, all right, I spend this much money and then

within a year I'm get loads of money back and I see a lot of people, you know,

selling coaching programs, marketing programs, sales programs based on that,

as opposed to actually by doing this, I've now set myself on the path, or I

will set myself on the path that will be a fruitful one for the next five, 10 years.

Mm.

As opposed to a quick fix.

And then the, and then think again, just following on from that, just

how much is that worth to you to feel like for the next five, 10

years I'm really clear or much more clear about the direction I'm going.

Mm-hmm.

I'm much more energized to commit to the direction.

And I don't think this points just what, um, Frances is saying there about

committing to kind of therapy or coaching.

And again, in my mind, was the talk that Chris gave at Summercamp.

I guess partly 'cause it was one of the last ones that really in my mind, but

also because the story is really powerful.

And the idea that you kind of, you'll go somewhere, you know, in

his case going to going Summercamp and you are in a job you don't like

and you know, okay, so whatever.

Let's say that job you are earning, I dunno, whatever the number is, like

30,000, 40,000 pounds, whatever it might be, but it kind of makes you feel sort of

sad, it makes you feel kind of depressed, it makes you feel, you know, you don't

enjoy the kind of feeling of doing that.

What kind of price essentially to kind of not feel like that?

What price to get on a journey where you are connected to work, which

kind of empowers you and motivates you and kind of fills you with more

joy and more kind of happiness?

You know, if you are, you know, affecting that kind of change

is of course worth huge amounts in all sorts of ways to people.

Uh, and, you know, sort of consistently talking to those 'cause that starts

to kind of point to the good feelings essentially, that people are getting

as a consequence of investing in you, in, in invest, whether it's coaching,

whether it's therapy, whether it's even sort of Summercamp, you know, in the,

in the context of all of those things.

There is, there, there are real gains there actually, uh, that are important

to talk to when somebody is thinking about, you know, making the leap.

And of course it links back to the first thing, you know, of buying

anything is fraught with risk, uh, but equally that's, or in a way that's

the outcome, that's the change that people are interested in buying.

Uh, and that, you know, is, is a hugely valuable thing for people.

Well, it makes me think back to the holiday thing or the kind of,

people buy adventure sometimes.

That is the thing that they're, they're looking for.

They're, they're, they've seen everything they've seen or

they've experienced so much.

It's like, oh, I'm not gonna do another package holiday.

Oh, I'm not gonna just sit on the beach somewhere.

I want to go out.

I want to like climb Everest.

Or, oh, not another, uh, industry event.

No, not another, uh, event that's gonna talk to me about things I should

do and learn to improve my business.

May I want something that's different, something that's, that's memorable.

I feel it's like so much focused on the feeling side of things.

Is, it's, it's talking to the experiences that will become memories that will

last you a lifetime in terms of they will be memories that you can tap into,

and always be getting value from them.

Mm-hmm.

As opposed to you buy something, uh, and it's done in terms of like, it's a

product, it probably dies in about two years and it doesn't pro, necessarily

create the same emotional impact.

And so, yeah, there's maybe an emergence in terms of some kind of what tangible

learnings are gonna, people are gonna create, but the, the kind of certainty

for want of a better term that you can provide, that you will, you will feel,

and you will remember this time, and you will have, you will have a time

that you will be able to talk about and resource yourself from in the future.

Mm-hmm.

And be able to tell that story.

I do wonder as well, again, I'm, I'm, I'm, maybe I'm overly fixated by this, but

it is this whole idea about the number.

You know, um, how, how to get people not necessarily comfortable, but accepting and

understanding that this, this number makes sense in terms of what I'm going to pay.

And, you know, from what we talk about on the course, it's, you know,

value is in the eye of the beholder.

It's up to them to be able to, well, they will pay that mon number,

um, they will decide on whether that's the value to them, if they

are able to make sense of it.

Mm-hmm.

How do you help people understand or get close to, to telling a, a

useful story about these numbers?

Um, well, I think one of the things which is kind, so of course comparison

is a, you know, is a way we try and make sense of almost everything, isn't it?

It's like this, but like that, or you would do this, but it's like that.

So comparison is a way that we can use to make, make sense of things,

um, for sure, and that's part, part of what's what, part of what's going on.

And then there, there are, you know, other things which links a little

bit to the idea of kind of, of around anchoring, you know, you would have

invested on this for that amount.

And then there is this again, but again, that's more on the sort

of comparison side of things.

Yeah.

Well, one of the things again that, uh, remembering from the, the

course is like giving some options.

Mm-hmm.

Like you were saying in terms of, you know, you can, in this

case, types of accommodation.

Mm-hmm, sleeping with everybody or just yourself.

Exactly.

Um, then there's.

Uh, terms.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know, whether you pay upfront or you, you pay over a, using a payment plan.

Again, just making it, just giving people opportunities to, to

choose a way of engaging with you.

Yeah, the anchoring thing is really interesting and I'm curious as to like how

best, what, what comparisons to use there.

Um, because, uh, it could be straightforward like other

events like you were saying before, and how much they cost.

It could be other experiences that you may have and how much they cost.

I'm wondering if there's something also about, Okay.

if you are not getting your inspiration and energy from here, what would you

end up spending your money on doing, and would they be as effective?

Mm-hmm.

Would you be just buying stuff to make yourself feel better or, um, doing more

training to make yourself feel better.

And how much of an impact will that make?

Mm-hmm.

And how, and how does that compare to having more clarity, for instance,

or coming from a space and just being, yeah, having more inspiration

because you've heard a story that just shifted the way you look at things.

I, one of the, the thing which is coming up, and I know it's not really

a sort of comparison with, it was not a comparison with what you do, but

just the rest, you know, this thing around what else people spend money on.

And I know it's a different audience and a different thing, but then you have

something like a Tony Robbins type thing where people spend tens of thousands or

whatever the number is, I don't know, you know, but where it's, you know, what

is happening in that sort of situation?

In a sense, you know, people are, Willing to make that investment

because there is something they desperately want to go away.

They, they, you know, they just, they want something to go away and

something in the future to be different.

And they see that investment, going to that, going to those events as

the means to affect that change.

Um, and you know, the thing around the price tag is, uh, you know,

it in that sense it is a signal.

You know, I think probably part of the reason that they're doing that.

And the Do Lectures too, 'cause obviously the do lectures price confidently, uh,

is one way of putting it, isn't it?

You know?

And, and I think because they are, they are interested in the price as a signal.

Um, that it is saying something about what the event is like.

It is saying something about the change that you will enjoy as a

consequence of going, and it's, it's gonna, it's saying something about

a kind of confidence essentially.

So the other thing I was, that's springing up to mind when you, when

you spend is also the identity.

Mm-hmm.

You know, by associating to yourself to that.

It's like with any brand, you know, it says something about you.

Mm-hmm.

By a, spending a certain amount of money and b, spending it with a certain

brand or a certain group of people.

And so I feel as part of this story as well for, for people trying to get

people to value and experience is also the whole people like us do things

like this marketing aspect of this.

And if you identify with this journey, or our journey and the way we see the

world, uh, and you're not alone and you see all these other people that you,

you admire, or you are, you are, um, wanting to be connected to, then it

makes sense to make this investment.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's, it's about you feeling part of something bigger

and rather being on your own.

And then again, all of these I think are, are just ways to tap into that

more emotive side of decision making, which arguably is the only side.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's the, the piece around the numbers, it's just post-rationalization.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, okay, how do I explain this to friends, family, loved

ones, colleagues, to say, yeah, no, no, no, this is worth this.

It's uh, it's a business event.

Yeah.

Gonna learn lots about business.

Mm-hmm.

Not woo woo.

Not incrementally woo woo.

Not incrementally woo.

Or who knows?

Who knows?

Know someone this woo woo stuff is even more valuable.

Mm-hmm.

Is like, ah.

And I, and I think in the end, and this is the I, this is where I think the,

one of the key pillars of it is, like really having a sense and understanding

of the people that you wanna invite.

Uh, and being able to tell a, a story that aligns with them by understanding,

getting into their heads, really understanding their context,.

Um, and there's, there's a psychographic aspect of this, rather

than necessarily demographic aspects.

Like what are the changes they wanna make in their lives?

Where, you know, what kinds of professions they may be in.

Mm-hmm.

I know that's starting to go to the demographic route, but then it starts

to tell the, to talk to the, the ability to spend and the kinds of things that

they might spend their money on already.

Yeah.

And then ways like you point out ways they might spend, you know, is there

a thing around terms, is there a thing around sort of dividing how you

would sort of divvy up the payment?

So those more tactical things that you come to once you're really

clear about the, the who and the change that they're trying to buy.

Nice.

As promised, no silver bullets.

Not even a copper bullet.

Just joyful pricing bants.

Um, if you have any questions, uh, please and if, if an epiphany springs

to mind afterwards, uh, about something you'd like to ask or you'd, you'd be

curious about or want us to talk about more and elaborate on, um, please

email me, carlos@happystartups.co.

Um, yeah, subject line, Things to talk about when it comes to pricing.

That's a bit too long.

I've got, I've got a question.

Whatever you want.

Send it to us and yeah, we, we'd appreciate um, any thoughts or

Answers

curiosities, well answers.

Even maybe you got like, actually, you know what?

You're all talking rubbish.

This is how we do it.

Um, yeah, we'd love to hear from you.

Um, 'cause it's, again, this is as much for us to connect with you

and, um, get a feel for all your challenges around this so that we

can, yeah, share what we can find out.

Mm-hmm.

And hopefully move you along on this whole confidence and

clarity journey around pricing.

Cool.

Until next time.

Until next time.

Thank you very much, Ben.

Thank you, Carlos.

Um, thank you for joining us.

Thank for you for your ears for those of you listening to the podcast.

We'll give them back.

Bye-bye.

Bye.