Paul Laursen (00:00)

we want to have the mindset that the most important session is the next session. So you really want to manage how much soreness you actually make in any given one session so that you can still have enough energy to do the next session.

Paul Warloski (00:39)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass Podcast, where we navigate training, fitness, and health for everyday athletes. Well, you've done it to yourself again. You crush a new workout. Maybe it's your first gravel race of the season. Maybe you finally tackled those hill repeats. And today you can barely walk down the stairs. Your legs are stiff, they're sore, they're screaming at you, and you're wondering, did I do something wrong? Is this normal? Or did I actually hurt myself?

Today we're talking about something every endurance athlete has dealt with at some point: sore muscles. We'll discuss why your muscles, especially your legs, get that deep achy soreness 24 to 48 hours after a workout, what science calls DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness. We'll talk about what happens inside your muscles, whether soreness means you're getting stronger, and what you can do to prevent it.

And if you're already sore, we'll cover what actually works to feel better, plus the stuff that's just wasting your time. Plus, we'll tackle the protein question. Does when you eat protein matter? Or is it just about how much? So, Paul, why do our legs, our bodies, muscles get sore twenty four to forty-eight hours after a hard ride or workout, but not immediately. What yeah, what's going on?

Paul Laursen (01:57)

Yeah. Well, Paul, this is

a I should say this is actually even a w a more difficult and relevant concept in the in in the context of running. And it's really relates to the eccentric, the muscle lengthening aspect of how our muscles function. So to just to back up the track, and you you do get a little bit of that with cycling too, which is why you, of course, you can get that soreness.

also with cycling, but never to the deg the same degree that you get when you're running this. And then you won't exacerbate that even further. You know, you run downhill. Okay. So yeah, let's let's just back it up and and think about like what is this what is this big fancy word that I just used called eccentric. So when you are sh like shortening a muscle making it like when you're when you're myofilaments, the the proteins

Paul Warloski (02:31)

Absolutely.

Paul Laursen (02:55)

That are in your muscle when they they come together. It's a couple of proteins called the actin and the myosin. They they come together, they shorten that muscle. And that's you know, when I and the classic example is like if you're watching this on YouTube, you can just see my my bicep is I I'm telling my bicep to like shorten that that muscle and it pulls the lever, it pulls my you know, radius and ulness ulna towards my

more toward my humerus, and of course that whole lever just shortens with that. But of course, also we have this this scenario where we can still be resisting that that force, but under a lengthening tension, right? So if someone's stronger than me on an arm wrestle, if I'm pulling that muscle and they're they're pulling it out so that my the lever extends

that my muscle lengthens under con under contraction while I'm still I'm trying not to let it go. that's called an eccentric contraction. Now in the scenario of running, you really have this this scenario. This is like just east especially downhill, it's constant eccentric contractions. You're just always can like providing an action potential and a neural impulse to tell that muscle

Whoa, just break, break. Don't, you know, don't don't lengthen. and it but it does anyways, right? Of course, under the force. and that is that also happens at a small level too in in the cycling contraction as well. There are these small these micro lengthening scenarios. Okay, so now you again, why have I why have I talked about this? Well, it's because related to the soreness.

When that muscle lengthens, it actually tears. At the microscopic level, that ecenter contraction and it and under the lengthening, it's actually tearing at the micro level. And there's your answer, Paul. At the end of the day, that that tearing of the muscle at the micro level is what causes delayed onset muscle soreness. You don't feel it right away, delayed is in the word, but you definitely feel it, you know, 24 to 48 to even 72 hours.

After a really hard bulk of exercise that invol that involves a lot of eccentric muscle contractions.

Paul Warloski (05:29)

So it's the there's actual muscle damage in the tear with the tears that happen when you are lengthening the muscle. Is that a sign that I got good a good workout or is that just a damage?

Paul Laursen (05:42)

yeah.

Well, it it's kind of both. and let's even back the truck up further, like to maybe, you know, five to ten years ago, or even the listener, you might have heard of this. It's like that y we used to blame the that soreness on lactic acid. Of course, it has nothing to do with lactic acid, right? You didn't you didn't get sore because you burn burned your muscles in lactic acid. That's that's false and that's that's an old

Paul Warloski (06:03)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (06:12)

That's the first way we we thought of trying to explain it, but it's just it's not what occurs. It is back to this this micro tear, this mic micro damage. So you're actually yeah, you're actually making that that damage in in the muscles there. And yeah, it's the good news is, Paul, is that there is a a response to that.

length that that soreness, right? When you make those tears, that sends a signal to the body to say, whoa, I don't think we want that to happen as much next time, please. So what slowly starts to happen is that all of these amino acids that you consume from your protein, they run to the area and they start to make a more resilient a more resilient muscle.

that has tighter junctions and stronger you know stronger proteins that are around it and reconfigurations of the protein in terms of how they're they're positioning on the force that was applied there. All these various different adaptations occur so that you don't get as sore the next time. And that's that's the useful aspect of it. Do you always have to make yourself sore?

No, you don't. But, you know, in and then this is especially in the context of the ultra trail, the ultra runner that do actually has to perform these bouts of of downhill running, you definitely need to get a regular dose of this eccentric muscle contractions downhill running into your program at a regular basis. And if you go unprotected.

you are you're you're gonna really gonna feel it on the day. In fact, if there's one one thing that's important for the ultra trail, the ultra runner that's that has mountains in in in their in their program or in their in their race that they're going to do, it's that. You have to get at least a weekly dose of that you know, repeated bout effect, that downhill running.

Guillaume Millet, who's Professor Guillaume Millet he's researched this and you know, he's he's come fourth in Trail Mont Blanc and Ultra Trail Mont Blanc, UTMB, which and you know, th he says this is this is you know, he did he did this really cool experiment on himself where he got his he got his dad to pick him up at the top of this this mountain every time so he'd constantly run up and get his dad to drive him back down.

Thinking that the most important thing would be the climbing of the of the of the mountain, right? And I would have almost thought that initially too. And then he he f he almost couldn't finish it. He was so sore after he did the race with that training. Then when he had this epiphany, he switched things up and he got his dad to do the opposite. His dad drove him to the top of the mountain and he continued to run down it. Drove him to the top, ran down it. He placed fourth at UTMB. So

completely the opposite strategy and completely the opposite outcome. So again, eccentric contraction training is vital, especially if you have this in the physiological requirements of the event that you're about to do.

Paul Warloski (09:46)

So, you know, I'm thinking about getting ready for cyclocross later this this this fall and winter, and I need to do some running and I'm dreading it because I know that it's going to I'm gonna be sore after the first time I run. But why why do my legs feel sore with something new when I'm already in pretty good shape? Is it just the eccentric motion or is there something else going on?

Paul Laursen (10:09)

Exactly. Exactly. It is it is just the fact that you don't have that eccentric motion in your in the diet of your training. And this is again a go to another really cool case study. and this was Christian Ma Meyer, who you might know Paul. He's like, you know, he was a Tour de France rider. and he switched to UTMB type type type training after he retired from from doing Tour de France, you know, racing for Garmin Slipstream,

Paul Warloski (10:24)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Paul Laursen (10:38)

orca green edge, et cetera. So I had him on the podcast and he told me the story too. The first three, again, just to your point, you know, here's one of the fittest guys in the world coming in to do UTMB type ultra ultra events. And for the first three years, he just absolutely suffered. He's like, what am I doing here? until he finally realized about this mechanism. And then he slowly started to add that eccentric type of training in. And of course

he won one of the one of the feeder events. So he went from again because he always he had that, you know, a vicious, massive aerobic capacity. Well, you know, he'd be up in the seventies or eighties, in terms of VO two max, but he had no protection in terms of his eccentric contraction. So he had to go slowly add those in. And it's the same with you, Paul, with the with the cyclocross. You just need to work slowly towards towards adding that in.

and you you have to feel a degree of that muscle soreness when you when you're now switching over to the cyclocross and to to meet the demands of those the the running requirements in that sport.

Paul Warloski (11:50)

Okay. Well, I'll I'll deal with it then. we've talked about recovery modalities in past episode. Are there are there specific modalities like massage or electro stim that work better when we're sore, or do we simply need to deal with it and maybe get back on the horse that threw us and and go running again?

Paul Laursen (11:53)

Yeah.

Yeah. That's a great question. And I don't think it and I think it really comes down to the individual and where they're at. And there's different degrees of that muscle soreness. So we can r we can rate it. And I've been you know, I I've been involved in a lot of these research studies, including the my level of soreness after, say, for example, an Ironman triathlon right? Where you've got the f the full forty two kilometer marathon at the end, and that's you know, the the DOM's level is

You y usually in researchers like Ken Nasaka who are leaders in this and they research you and he he did this on me. He was he was asking me, on a scale of one to ten, what's your soreness level? And of course, after an Iron Man, in terms of day forty-eight hours, two days, three days, it's ten out of ten. It's just like you can hardly walk down stairs. You sometimes you have to walk down backwards almost, just to to switch the muscle groups up, right? 'Cause the front of your legs

Paul Warloski (13:06)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (13:12)

in the to the quadriceps are just so sore. So there's the extreme level, but of course you can have just minor, you know, it can just be a a two out of ten or a three out of ten. It's not too bad. And then you could still potentially push through. So, you know, how long's a piece of string? It really depends on your own context of that soreness. You've got to listen to your body saying, what is what is this level? How bad is it? And then, you know, common sense usually should prevail on this. If it's not too bad, no problem.

Get out there and and give it a try. And it may also warm up with a little bit of you know, with with movement. It may get s slowly better if you just sort of start or start slowly, start by walking and then you know, work towards a jog. And but yeah, you you need to be cautious and careful with it. It's very individual. And I don't think there's a blanket, a blanket recipe, but usually, you know, there is that 48 hour DOMS window.

Right. So and in that context, we know that damage is still present. this, you know, repair is in progress, but not complete. And it's usually complete. Well, let's see, in the example of my Iron Man, we monitored for four two weeks and it returned after the Iron Man, it returned about ten days. I was from an extreme marathon kind of example, I w ten days I was back to normal, in terms of at least the DOMS level and the soreness had had gone away.

But yeah, so it's it's it's it it d depends on the degree of of damage that you've induced in yourself. And you need to individualize that to how level how much that soreness is.

Paul Warloski (14:56)

What did you do in the aftermath when you were sore after the Iron Man's? What did you do for recovery? Yeah.

Paul Laursen (15:03)

We didn't want to do too much.

You know, you don't want to move too too much, but you I think gentle gentle walking and gentle movement. light stretching but not too much. yeah, I think d I think definitely like static stretching was the main one, and then slow gentle movement and mobilities, mostly mostly walking, but not not a whole heap.

'Cause even walking was was pretty pretty painful. and just being patient though, ultimately with the time and making sure that, you know, a little bit of temperature manipulation as well as really nice. Things like a hot tub can be can be quite nice. you know, any any way you can get hot, even a sauna would be would be good, or a stretch in a sauna would would be lovely. you could try some cold water immersion. Just you know, I don't think it

It's probably not gonna make a massive difference, but you might, you know, it will numb the pain for a moment. Makes you feel like you're doing something. you know, it will, yeah, it's it's just a a nice a nice way to sort of manipulate that. Of course, your nutrition, you usually will gravitate towards higher protein sources. It's almost like your body needs or knows and and is telling you, let's let's have some we're you know, we're turning over proteins.

a lot right now. So please make sure the input is is sufficient and and and it should be, right? So that's really when we want to be, you know, looking and at consuming larger doses of protein, getting over two grams per kilogram body weight at that point.

Paul Warloski (16:45)

Yeah, let's talk about protein. Does does muscle protein synthesis actually fix the sore muscles or is it doing something different? I mean, research shows that they're somewhat independent processes. You know, so i is so what is the protein synthesis actually building? Is it is it repairing the tears?

Paul Laursen (17:03)

yeah, I I mean common sense would tell me that it it has to because yeah, that's the job of the body is that we need to again, we've provided the signal that damage has occurred and we want to pr prevent the that from occurring in the future. And the only thing that's gonna do that is you know, a more resilient structure around that, which requires protein. So, you know, even if a study n hasn't necessarily

you know, determine that whole body protein synthesis is has increased. you know, there's it it just makes per makes sense that you you would need that around the local area. So yeah, I mean I mean I I don't I don't know p particularly Paul in terms of of of studies, but that's just common sense says that's that's what you want to be doing afterwards.

Paul Warloski (18:00)

So so should I be eating protein before or after my workouts to minimize soreness, maybe before I go to sleep as well?

Paul Laursen (18:09)

Yeah, I mean it's it's just you know, we're gonna have Jose Antonio, Dr. Han Jose Antonio on the on the podcast He's the guru in this. I had him on the training science podcast and he was saying that, his wife is up to close to, you know, three grams per kilogram body weight and gets,

Paul Warloski (18:18)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (18:29)

Amazing results with that. It's individual. it probably depends on the diet that you consume. If you're, you know, more of it into a on the carnivore kind of side, having, you know, more more meat in your diet than versus versus not, then it's gonna be easy for you to do. So it it will really sway depending on the person's palatability and desire for for proteins and and yeah, and what they

what they're sort of regularly consuming. But you know, you know, we had Mickey Willington on the podcast as well. And, you know, protein, protein, protein was was was always emphasized. And certainly in the context of muscle damage, muscle soreness that we're talking about today, it makes only make makes makes sense that this is this should be a target for you to to to recover from it.

before, I don't think but before is necessarily the place. We have what's called a very shallow amino acid pool. so it's probably it it may also disappear in the in the in the beforehand time. before you really want to make sure that your energy levels are are up, right? You just want to make sure you have energy for the exercise. But then the after in the aftermath, you know, 30 minutes to

Five hours after it really I don't think the window matters that much, but you want to be consuming that protein in that in that recovery window before you go to sleep because when you sleep, that's when so much of the work is going to be done to rebuild you and make you stronger for for the next the next day and and coming days.

Paul Warloski (20:07)

So once again we come back to sleep being a critical part of of training because that's when the the muscle tears get repaired.

Paul Laursen (20:16)

That's right. Yeah. And we have to just think about well why that is. And there's, you know, this is sleep is more when the anabolic hormonal profile arrives. Right. So in the when when we're in the wake cycle, we're more in the catabolic or the breakdown phase. And and certainly when we're exercising and exercising eccentrically, as we've spoken about, there's a lot of of cat catabolism that's that has to occur, breaking down of the body.

So in the in the sleep time, that's when we build it up, the anabolism. And that's when when you're asleep, that's when all the all the systems of the body are going to work to make you stronger for the next day. Remember the f remember the fact that every cell in your body is turned over in six months. Right? So this whole process is constantly going. You literally are what you eat. And yeah, you definitely want to have amino acids, protein covered.

Before you you go to sleep at night.

Paul Warloski (21:17)

Do we also or should we also take some B CAAs or branch chain amino acids for recovery? Does that additionally help? Or is taking pr extra protein or getting protein from our diet enough?

Paul Laursen (21:31)

Total total context. And again, back to remember when I was talking about, you know, it it depends. So in the context of you know, Dr. Antonio's wife who said he was, you know, she was consuming three grams per kilogram body weight. Well, that's a ton of protein. She's eating a lot of meat, right? You can really only do that with a lot of a lot of meat. And she probably there there's no there's no sense in having

Paul Warloski (21:33)

Okay.

Paul Laursen (21:55)

to me a a a BCA supplementation because you're getting so many in the in all the meat that you're getting. Now and in contrast, if we're having a vegetarian diet, well then there's a lot of rationale for for supplementing now because you're not going to be getting all of the the the BCAAs and and your you will you know your protein level will be it would be hard to be reaching that two gram per kilogram body weight threshold

that we that we want for optimal recovery. So total context depending on how you eat, which is a you know, everyone has their own own culture and feelings and beliefs and practices around this, which is perfectly fine.

Paul Warloski (22:42)

So I work with some athletes who are are vegan and often, you know, these are jun some junior athletes and they often are feeling like their legs are sore. Is that likely something that they should be supplementing more with more protein source, you know, some some vegan sources?

Paul Laursen (23:03)

Yeah, that's yeah, again, there there's there's likely a parallel there, Paul, but again, we're we're guessing. We we don't know. and but but certainly it could be a a factor, right? and it could be it could be more challenging for them to get the rebuild that they're after, which is which may be manifesting in the the soreness report, but you know, we're we're guessing with the with individuals.

But if there were ways that they could consider f trying to, you know, in a vegan context, it's really difficult because we you you know, you don't even have access now to dairy protein or you know, egg protein. So now we're really we're really you know, challenged. whey whey substances, soy. This is these are just not the same level of bioavailability and

and dosages that you can get compared to you know, a big a big piece of steak. You know, the other the other issues that we have too are the the B vitamins, which all come with with especially with beef products. Yeah, liver and b liver and beef and and steak, for example, the you know

The yeah, and which and these are really important micronutrients that are involved with energy production and you need energy for everything. So you need energy for rebuilding, right? Even though the B vitamins might not necessarily be involved specifically with creating the resiliency from an amino acid standpoint, they are involved you know as in the in the actual generation of the energy that's required.

To do that rebuilding. All these things for from you know in anabolism and catabolism, they're all energetic processes that require enzymes. And these enzymes are, you know, they're built, they're built on many of the minerals and vitamins that we consume for our diet. So if we're deficient there also, this is again creating challenge, which could manifest in more, in more soreness.

Paul Warloski (24:49)

No, yeah.

Paul Laursen (25:15)

and I don't and unfortunately there's just not a an optimal or there's you know, there's potentially supplements could be considered. but the you know, my my preference is is always going back to whole foods,

Paul Warloski (25:27)

Yep. Yep. What about caffeine? I read that caffeine can help with soreness, or is that just masking the the pain?

Paul Laursen (25:35)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it could caffeine would be w it's like a adenosine which is a a a fatigue inducer. It basically it alleviates that adenosine re response. And if you're gonna feel a little bit more alert and awake, then it could potentially mask that that soreness or or pain receptor that's you know coming back.

the afferent signal coming back to the brain to tell you that you're sore. so could be okay in an acute situation like like a race. That's when we throw in gasoline on the fire and putting everything in. but probably don't necessarily want that in in training I would I would think unless you know you really, really need to get get through a hard workout and then could be could be potentially useful. Just have to watch the

the consequences of managing that d soreness in the in the aftermath. Remember again, the whole what we really want to do with training is we want the most, you know, we want to have the mindset that the most important session is the next session. So you really want to manage how much soreness you actually make in any given one session so that you can still have enough energy to do the next session.

Paul Warloski (26:59)

Do do warm ups help with that? You know, does a proper warm up actually prevent some of that soreness or is it still mostly about, you know, in you know, injury prevention and getting the the body warm? What does the evidence say about that?

Paul Laursen (27:12)

Well, just kind of common sense. So when the the warming up whole concept is you know, it's ultimately it's an energy flow sort of scenario where it's a like there's a temperature effect. So the t the temperature of the body from the muscles contracting actually causing heat to be produced and everything becomes actually warmer.

Everything becomes more lubricated, joints become more lubricated. and it's you're just in more of this flow you know movement state. So there's just multiple factors that are at play that are going to lower that soreness. And again, this was, remember, we we spoke about this. What can you kind of do? This is one of the one of the things is you know, if you're only at say when you're starting a three out of ten on that muscle soreness factor, well, that might slowly.

move down to two and then a one and it might even be gone by the by the time you're you know you're really into into the middle of your of your your set or your workout. So yeah, the usual recommendation for the athletes that I'm coaching is is, you know, just start the session. If it's if it's not if that soreness is not going away, that's probably real soreness we we need to just appreciate. But if it goes away, that's probably a good signal that it's not too bad and we're still gonna get a workout in. So

Yeah, you but again, always comes down to the individual and their and their feel on on the session, which is why it's so important for all of us to get as educated as we can on on the whole process of of training, including this really important topic, muscle soreness.

Paul Warloski (28:56)

The hydration and electrolytes, you know, does hyd dehydration make soreness work worse? You know, it's kind of a practical question for all of our endurance athletes.

Paul Laursen (29:08)

Hmm. Yeah, I would say probably not to a massive effect. but that being said, it's you know, it it's one of a number of of different factors that what if you're dehydrated, you're gonna be feeling not as comfortable ultimately. So i you know, we all have a mind, we all have a brain, we all that can handle so much stress.

Paul Warloski (29:15)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (29:32)

Well, and it you know, it's really always about stress management. So all of a sudden now if we're you know, dehydrate I mean, we we really need to do a whole podcast, Paul, on what is dehydration. Dehydration is the loss of b of of body water. But even if you're, you know, dehydrated and exercising, you you might have a plasma volume level that's perfectly normal, homeostatic, because of how the b how the the water shifts in the in the body.

Paul Warloski (29:44)

Mm-hmm. Good idea.

Paul Laursen (30:02)

So but in the case where even that plasma volume is is declining as well, then that could be, you know, that could be adding to your stress. And if your stress level is added, then you'll also be feeling more soreness as well. So the i the answer is it it depends.

Paul Warloski (30:20)

It depends. Yeah. Yeah. one more question about that kind of adaptation that happens that you mentioned in the beginning, the repeated bout effect. Why does this same workout get easier on our bodies, you know, the more time we over over time? You know, the first gravel race, first gravel workout of the season kind of, you know, puts you in the hurt locker, but the fifth one feels fine. What's the science behind the adaptation?

Paul Laursen (30:29)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so again we've kind of we've danced around it a little, Paul, and really it is the the repeated boat effect, and that is the fact that in repeated s scenarios of the same boat, it goes away in terms of the DOMs. You don't get as much DOMS. It's really the science is that those amino acids, those proteins that we've been talking about, they go into forming tighter junctions, a more robust

fascia that surrounds the the entire muscle unit. So the the fascia, which is the connective tissue, it gets stronger and and tighter, the the muscles themselves stronger and tighter and everything develops more stiffness ultimately. So it's a it's it's a stiffer overall unit. And we have a stiffer unit

we get better elastic recoil and and it's just it's everything is just is is is tighter and and as a result there's less tearing of the actin and myosin and the sarcolema, which is sort of the the area that surrounds the the the muscle fiber and it it bleeds less less. Like when we're actually talking about muscle damage, we usually measure the the markers of

cre creatinine and myoglobin, right? And we actually look at the amount that's in the blood. So the degree of creatinine and myoglobin, which are you know muscle components, the degree the the the level that that leaks into the bloodstream is proportional to how much damage. And of course with a repeated bout effect we find out that

Paul Warloski (32:10)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (32:25)

you get less and less of that leakage. So the whole everything is tighter and stronger, more stiffness, bounce, bounce, bounce in terms of the think of the running context. But it would be even the same in the cycling as well, Paul, because we know we get a little bit of soreness when we're just starting cycling. We haven't done that, you know, in a while. And, you know, e even in the cycling context as well, you would just have a

every time that muscle actually shortens under contraction, it would it would just it would hold together even a little bit more. So that's that's the repeated boat effect. It's just yeah. we're incredible you know animals. like but all you know all animals get this this same sort of effect or a lot of them do. And yeah we're we're certainly one as well and it it's super cool.

Paul Warloski (33:00)

Mm-hmm.

Is there anything that else about muscle soreness that we need to discuss?

Paul Laursen (33:20)

I don't think so. I mean we kind of I I'll do a little summary and see if anything further comes to mind. But I think the the take home for the re for the for the listener is you get muscle soreness from this concept of an eccentric contraction or lengthening under tension. You're trying not to let that muscle lengthen, but you and you contract accordingly. And by doing that, you actually create damage.

Now that's and that's that damage, that tearing of the you know of the muscle, actinomyosin, sarcolema, that actually causes for that damage, causes for a variety of different enzymes to leak out of the muscle, And yeah, it creates that pain and soreness from actually stimulates the what's called the nausea receptors. There's a new one back to the brain. but of course the repeated boat effect.

it's not gonna be as bad the next time. You're gonna be sore over twenty-four to twenty-four to seventy two hours and then that's gonna slowly diminish. But the next time that you go back, according to the science, says you won't be as sore the next time. And that's because of all of the you know, amino acids, proteins that you've had in the interim, they've gone to work and made a more resilient s system of sp in in terms of the specific you know, motor

unit co contraction, motor pattern that you've that you've induced, it goes back and it's not as painful the next time. And and that's that's the repeated boat effect. And we use that science in our own training and specifically in the context of the ultra runner who gets this more than any other athlete that I'm I'm aware of out there. This is why you want to do a a shock shock weekend, Professor Millet

calls it. You know, you when when you finally have your weekend available, you want to find some hills to run downhill on specifically. And that will be you'll be sore for a few days after that, but you'll slowly become more and more resilient and be able to compete well in the you know in the in the ultra trail type runs where eccentric damage i is massive. Of course this applies to all runners and even cyclists and especially

cyclocross runners are cyclocross participants as well, Paul, like you're like you're having to go with.

Paul Warloski (35:44)

Thanks for listening today to the Athletes Compass Podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science-based training platform Atletica, and join the conversation at the Athletica Forum. For Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.