Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk.

Welcome to how to be human,

a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

on this episode and I discussed selfishness. Take a seat clear mind and let's chat trying to say hello in a way that's not weird.

Is there one?

Hello?

I think it can be very telling of when of how people say hello when they feel like shy or awkward or, you know, like I always like a party or or even like a workshop, I always find it very telling help people like who's like good day people are like, Oh, you're that one? Okay, cool.

How about that? How about when I shook that girl's hand the other day?

Sometimes, so, like, Nina is literally one of the kindest and most supportive friends like even if she will give it to you straight and be like, No, it's you who's ruining your life. Like she'll do it in the kindest way. But, like, I cannot always reciprocate because she will tell me these stories. And I'm like, wait, you did that. Like, I'm so surprised that she was like, so awkward with someone kind to her and be like, it's okay. Everybody's awkward. I'm like, wait, you were awkward? That's so weird. No.

Dynein I appreciate you for that. I was like, you see me I'm not awkward. I'm really not.

And I was I feel like she took her sometimes it's like counterintuitive with you, you know, like, how you are is not like what you want necessarily.

100% I do not want that.

And if I was Oh, it's okay. I'm sure she for sure.

She really are. Your Spirit she saw right through into your soul. You know? I just like shut down when people talk to me like that. I'm like, Huh?

Me too. Have you ever seen like a puppy that's getting pet too much by children and it just like shuts down. Like I feel a bit like that sometimes where it's like, I'm just gonna endure it. They just keep adding, you know, like, I'm just gonna go with him, you know? And it's like, it's not that high. But it just feels like a lot though, like, I shook someone's hand, and I think I also like, punched her boob. No, no,

I agree. I agree. Yeah. I went to like, tap her to be like, oh, yeah, we're not doing that anymore. People don't shake hands. And I went to go Tapper. And then I'm like, that was mushy. Oh.

It just gets better.

And then I was like, well, here we are. I could have just like, literally pinched your nipple or like, I don't know. But we're, what's done is done.

Oh, my God. I love it. See? So it's true. Like, it's Nina is very rarely awkward. Like, and I don't know that I'm as awkward as I think I am in my head. You know, when I'll be like, and then I felt like and you're like, that's not what happened at all. You know, like, you're like, that's not how you sounded at all, you know? Like, I think we're all hard on ourselves. But the like, one of the only times I can think of when you were awkward, and it was It wasn't even awkward, but maybe intense or like it was socially odd was one we initially were first trying to connect I think with Lauren maybe. And it was like through a comedy of errors you essentially emailed her like 14 times like in a three minute period. Like it was just my accent I mean, it was It wasn't like you were really trying to do it was like you like prank Elam emailed to her or something or like you forgot something. You were like, sure. You sent me a text joke. We were already like laughing about it. And then like something else happened. And you were like, do I just sent her like her phone number is on her signature? Do I just call her now? Like, Hey, girl.

It's me.

I mean, I was already like, sure about our partnership at that point. But I was like, oh, yeah, she's for me. This is right up my alley.

So today, we're not talking about that. We're talking about selfishness,

selfishness. I was gonna be like I selfishly very much like it when you're awkward because it delights me it's always funny. That's why I told you. It's true. A hug. Did I when when you added the blue part about the Pilates check I would lost it because you're also like so respectful people's like bodies and personal space and, and your brood was like it would be like it was mushy, I don't know I'm not telling myself at the shoulder. So selfishness when, once again, like I say on every fucking episode and when I went looking for this, it was like, you know redirect to selfish and then I was like, I don't really want to like define selfishness by defining selfish bah bah bah. So Wikipedia had what I thought was a really nice definition. And it is selfishness is being concerned excessively or exclusively for oneself or one's own advantage, pleasure, or welfare regardless of others. Selfishness is the opposite of altruism or selflessness, and has also been contrasted with self centeredness. Studies done, done. I mean, I wouldn't say mee. Mee Mee Mee Mee Mee Mee Mee Mee Oh, that but but that harms me, I don't care. I feel like to a certain degree, I have so much I think about selfishness that I like, don't even know where to begin. And something in terms of like, prepping for this episode and thinking about this podcast in general. I was like, it's so interesting to me how often I go into these episodes, and I think I know exactly where I am, like, what my viewpoint is, you know, and then I realized I generally hold to, you know, are like two main spectrums. And I'm like, I both think selfishness, fucking sucks. And as why, like, we're all so miserable, and the pandemic is going to be like, 700 years. And I also think it's the only pathway to like, true happiness and thriving, it's like, it's, we you have to, like, you have to have it in its negative, and you have to have it in its positive in order to have any benefits at all, or something. And I was like, frustrating this thing that I was like, Oh, I feel really clear on it's actually so much more nuanced. So I'm curious how you felt coming into this?

Well, you know, I don't look at the subjects until about 10 minutes before, and then we're talking about selfishness today. You know, I just like this to be get really real and authentic.

This is how, you know, as learning disabilities, any other doesn't, because she was like, Oh, we're really talking about it once I think in terms of meditations, and I was like, Oh, I'd get real lost in the corn maze. Okay. You have a different process.

Just so creative, that you're like, oh, a cloud. And let me talk about I don't maybe I do get lost, I just, I something about doing meditations, like anchors May. So I feel like I feel pretty good in my like, freak zone there. But anyway, selfishness, I'd say have a pretty negative. It holds a pretty negative connotation to me. But yeah, I also think that what we teach is selfish is not always selfish. So there are many conflicting beliefs that I think we all hold the of like, oh, but that's selfish. But that's not actually selfish. I don't believe so. A lot of this is undoing and unlearning, you know, but I do think I grew up believing that I was so frustrating is like, I try I think when we try think teenagers are just inherently selfish, by the way, but especially, I think that I tried so hard not to be self absorbed that I became selfish

interest. You're also an only child, which I think is an interesting layer, you know, of like, I have a brother, but like, in terms of what you're saying of like, what people say is selfish, you know, like, it. Yeah, it isn't. I think like, with siblings, as well, there's a lot of like, help your brother like, do you know, like, if you're like, I don't want to it's like, well, don't be selfish. And it's like, Am I really being selfish? Or am I just not really interested in doing childcare since I too, am one, you know?

Yeah, there's that's what I mean. It's like it's, it's it is the, as you said, it's so nuanced, right? I mean, Caveman me is like selfishness bad. But that's not really like, what is it? You know, what defines it? How do you know when you're being selfish, I think at this point in my life, so when we got we're just talking about how we met yesterday when we had a friend over and I think that We decided not to have a wedding and all that stuff. And I think that a lot of people would consider that selfish in some ways because like, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's also like, people become demons when they get married, like and become the most self absorbed people on Earth. Not all of you, but a lot of you.

Well, it's funny you say that because weddings are one of my my things. I think people are incredibly selfish, but act like they're not about

100%. Because it's because it's okay. That's what it's like. It's almost, it's like selfish not to have a wedding. And I don't think people impose that on us as much as I do think it was like, oh, we'd like to have celebrated with you or whatever. I mean, some people were relieved, I'm sure as I am, every time somebody doesn't invite me to their wedding for the most part, or doesn't have a big one. But I think that it's confusing, right? Because what we wanted to do was just for us, yeah, we didn't want to have the big thing. And also, that feels to me like this big hoopla for some, and to be like, me, me, me, look, I mean, give me presents give me money, which again, I'm not saying everybody's like that, but that's how it felt for me. And I didn't want to be in that. I just didn't, I never had any interest in really having like a wedding that way. But I think when I was younger, what I was saying is that I tried to be like the best friend I could possibly be and always be, you know, they're for everyone to this degree that wasn't really healthy. But it ended up having the adverse effect on you know, as far as it just, it wasn't balanced. So I became actually quite selfish in some ways. Not always, but because I was so burned out, or I was, so I wasn't taking care of myself that I wasn't able to find this happy medium of, like, if I give to me, then I can also give to you and it. But if it comes in this weird, muddy, like, I'm gonna give you everything, then you then become like, No, I want this. And this is what I wanted, this is how I'm gonna get it. And you often have tunnel vision, I think about yourself

what's interesting is, I would wonder, sort of, with the younger you is, it's like, it's, I don't know that you were being selfish so much as you are being like, self reliant. And also, like, your needs aren't being met. You know, so like, whenever your our needs aren't being met, it's going to fire, like, our survival shit, you know, and I think survival stuff really looks selfish, you know, like, a lot of my friends who I think are earlier in the process of sort of, like, realizing they're fucked up, you know, like, because we all are, everybody is, you know, there's like, no shame in it, because we all are everybody, if you've been a human being on this earth for any period of time, like, you've got some stuff, and they're like, oh, like, in starting to go, like, I get really anxious and stuff. And like, becoming more aware of that stuff of like, what their some of their drivers are, that I think it can be really hard for all of us to realize that, like, I think of selfishness is like, there's no other driver than just like you want it. You know, it's like, I want that, or I, I want my way, like whatever that is. We're sort of survivors survival stuff. It's like, that's how you've learned to get your needs met, you know, so you're, you're operating on a very different system, like our brains literally fire different shit when that's what's going on. But I think that a lot of us if you have any, any history of like trauma or anything like that, like, it gets confusing, you know, like, because yes, you are very like US centric, you are looking to like heal your pain or do whatever, like, you know, through being really attached to friends or being really, you know, focused on your stuff, but it's like, it's coming from a very different place than literally like, I don't care about anyone else. I want this. Do you think that it's what we internalize? You know,

that's a really good point. I because I never felt like I didn't give a fuck about people. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that I do think being selfish is being you know, like you said excessively, exclusively concerned with self. But do you think that yeah, you've selfish people or selfish when people are being selfish, they know they're being selfish?

Yes, I think on some level, if we go back to the definition, like what's interesting is you you said to, or you said one of the words in the definition which is excessive, you know, and in it saying Um, selfishness is being concerned excessively or exclusively for oneself or one's own advantage, pleasure or welfare, regardless of others, you know. So I think that a lot of people, I think exists on a spectrum and it's like, you know, I just binged we crashed over the weekend, which, you know, Friday night. I'm like texting. It's, it's funny sometimes when Nina and I are watching stuff, or we like, turn the other onto something, and then the the other one starts watching and being like, Oh my God, this part. Oh my god, you know? And I'm like, Nina, you have to watch this because it's just,

it's on HBO.

Yeah, Apple plus.

Okay, gone. I'll do it today. Is it like, it's okay for for me and my

Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Okay. For sure. Oh, for sure. I mean, you're gonna hate them. It's gonna rile you up, but in a good way, I think okay, or in a way that you'll get it. But But I like I had so many, like, epiphany is watching it and it was funny rolling into this episode thinking about it, but like, you don't like he essentially lied, he essentially was arrogant and overvalued, estimated the value of a company, the Adam Newman, the main, the the founder. And but it's like, he was high on his own supply. Is it selfishness? Yes. You know, but like, like, where are these lines, and especially to in the day and age of like scammers. It's like, I think you were not being selfish. I think you were kid trying to figure some stuff out. And if we look again, to the definition, you weren't pursuing this stuff, regardless of others, you were trying to figure out? How do I like follow this lead of being really driven to care a lot about my friends, and take care of me like you were to me, that's like, you were trying to work some shit out. You know, like, that's a different thing. Versus like, people are telling you like, this isn't going to work, this will fail, you will lose all this money. And you're going, I believe in me.

Did you have you seen the Hulu documentary?

No, I can't wait. That's next on my list. Because that Pete because like the Hulu documentary, and we crash, like not that different. You know, like, it really is how it went down. And it's like, how do people justify that kind of selfishness? It's like, like out I mean, I guess it can't be altruistic selfishness. But it's like, you're telling yourself like when people are like, I have a vision, or it's for this mission, or we're going to do this or whatever. Is is that a way they hide the selfishness from themselves? Just kind of like weddings, to be honest. It's like RZ about like, how many times when friends have gotten married, they started to like, play the victim and start being martyrs and being like, you just don't know what it's like. It's just and I'm like, it's just so hard. Why? Like, I'm not saying it's not stressful. I do think it's a lot of pressure. Like, I'm not saying it's not a pain in the ass. I think weddings are huge pain in the ass. Cost of money. I mean, the cause, like all of it stressors. But when people start acting like it's this thing that they're doing for all of us. And it's just so hard to give, give give to all of you. I'm like, this is for you, Link. This is all about you. Like the dress I'm buying is for you. Just me started on two dresses, was like for me to care about this napkin is for you. You know, like, let's not act like you're like, especially because I've mostly been in bridal parties and stuff that you're the one taking the brunt of the brides complaining and stuff. And I'm like, This is insane. You know, like, and I think that there's an interesting sort of overlap between like selfishness and Blaine that like, selfish, like we've been so poisoned. I think in our society that like selfish is bad. Don't be selfish, be anything but selfish. That's bad. But so then it's like, we won't look at it or own it when I think we're being selfish in a way that like is healthy. Like, if it is your wedding, you should be selfish. This is your day, do it. You know, like, embrace if you want to, like, if you want to come in off the ocean writing dolphins, like I hold that vision and dream for you, you know, but don't pretend like you're doing it for your grandmother, you know, like, let's be real

Nana would want that.

You know, but it's like that, but it's like, I feel like sometimes when people are confronted with selfishness, or you're kind of like, hey, that seems kind of selfish. There's immediate blame.

I feel like I was called selfish a lot. I'm sure you are too. You

know. Oh, you was I was such a people pleaser.

Oh, yeah. No, yeah. As a teenager, I think I was called that a lot.

I think because my family dynamics were different. I would be called selfish really, I think Like, I mean, I would say that some of the patterns aren't so different than what happens now of like, when I want to boundary, or I'm like, This doesn't feel good to me. I'm not called selfish, but there's an implication I am being selfish. Like, you're not being cool about this is real selfish, you know? And it's like, well, so be it, you know?

Yeah, maybe I'm

I think you're good at good selfish so we wouldn't surprise me that you've been called it by people that it threatens.

Yeah, not recently, but I think when I I didn't they're too scared now. Yeah 100% me selfish like, No,

you would be like yes. And that's why I'm happy next

clickety click sorry call me never the blocking the blocking is just so good. I saw something the other day was like reasons I block and I'm like, I got more like just you i for any really apparent reason I decide, oh, we're gonna laugh so hard. Okay, so what do you think there's some of the things that we call selfish or we are taught are selfish that aren't actually selfish like,

well, hmm, your alone time. I think preferences. I think like if people have yet preferences about like, sleep energy food. Yeah. Like, you know, kind of like quality of life stuff. Maybe, you know, like, I don't know what you would call that just like kind of basic documenting lifestyle. Yeah, lifestyle. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, If only there was a word.

Later, they haven't thought of it yet.

If there was a way to sum up the things. Yeah, like a lifestyle. Like, I wonder. I mean, I feel like you grew up differently than I did. But like, in the south is so gossipy. I feel like if someone came over and was like, Oh, I don't like sweet tea. Do you have blah, that like, people would be like, gracious, but then be like, can you believe she asked for? And it's like, you gave them the option? I was like, how's that? Selfish? You know, like, yeah, people, I think like self advocating preferences, like lifestyle, kind of lifestyle stuff that I think is, in my opinion, very arbitrary. You know, and I was reading something, though, a ways back about, like, why people are so threatened by people, if people don't like the same things that they do. And it was, because it threatens our sense of how we're relating. And whether or not like, we're able to relate to that person. And I was like, oh, maybe that's sort of why people if someone's like, I don't like strawberries. People like lose their shit. You know? And I like

strawberries. That's so weird. Everybody likes strawberries. Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like I grew up in a way that everybody else everybody liked the same kind of things and I was like, weird because I didn't but I don't know if it was selfish as much as it was like, framed as like or the undertone of of snotty which I wasn't Yeah, II but I think that goes in line with like, someone you know. It's not it wasn't like an ego thing. It wasn't like I was like, I don't I don't eat that. I don't grow up like that. I don't eat that. I don't want that or I don't want to go there. Or and I've obviously said it more intensely.

It's interesting you saying this makes me think I think no, is a big one where people are like, You're selfish. If all you push back and say, No, I don't want to go there. I don't want to eat that. I don't want to see that person. You know, you're selfish.

How often are men called selfish in and women called selfish? What's the Yeah, how much more women are called selfish than men for you know what?

I bet men are called selfish more often than women and women are punished more for it.

Yeah, I don't I don't know maybe met maybe like behind closed but we don't point to men the way we point to women in this way. If you if a man is going back to work right after like, they have a baby at if that's a woman's choice, it's often selfish

Well, yeah, I think that that's where like, some of the some of it is bizarre, like no one can win where it's like, I think we just accept men are selfish. You know, we're like, men are so oafish. Like, the amount of times I've heard that from somebody about like, well, what are you gonna do? Men are selfish, you know? And it's like, they can evolve like we did, you know? We boys? Yeah, yeah, like I think I hear in that way. And then with women, you know, it's funny, my mom was called selfish a lot, you know, like in her household growing up and I don't know that she was I think she was just maybe like not compliant, to be honest. And that's a big thing. I mean, especially like as like, as a little girl, like, she was a bit like, you know, kind of hyperactive, and there's a my aunt six years older, and I forget how much younger my uncle is a couple years. And I think she was just kind of, like, tough for my grandparents to parent a little bit. So the thing became, like, I think a way they sort of cut her down was selfish. And it's still I'm not going to say how old my mom is now, because she would literally murder me. But um, many years later, it still is a trigger for her. It's still something she's afraid of. She still, I think struggles to set boundaries, because she's so afraid of being selfish. And I want to be kind of like, Will, like so why, like what like, what's, I also think, too, that I don't know about you, but a lot of the people I know, who are very hung up on selfish or selfishness and talk about it a lot. Think about it a lot. All those often are some of the most covertly selfish people.

Mm hmm. Yeah,

I find the covert selfishness. Like I think our need and desire to take care of ourselves, obviously, is going to leak out. So if you're constantly trying to sublimate that and be like, I am going to be a person of the world and give of myself all the time. Like, of course, you're going to have all these sneaky ways that you're trying to prioritize yourself to counteract that.

Yeah, totally. I think that's, I mean, I wasn't covertly but I think that's what I was getting out. Or, you know, like, where when I was younger, I think I was working shit out. But I think it gets sneaky, not because yes, because it has to come out.

Don't you think? Like, I think that there's a real selfishness sometimes in healing that isn't talked about?

Yeah. And that in self indulgence, and yeah, the out. Yep.

And then often, oh, my God. And I think sometimes, like when you're doing maybe some, some big work some big healing, like, you can really become this like, it's like, oh, did you want to see what you're like, is a narcissist. Here you go, like, here's a little taste, you know, like, and I think we all grow out of it, you know, but and I think it is a process sometimes if like it, especially if it's things that you've resisted feeling, I think it is a way of like, being immersed in the feeling to move through the feeling. But it's like, oh, yeah, like, I didn't think about points when I was really like working through stuff that I'm like, it was smart of me to just like, go on that retreat and like isolate or something that I was

gonna say that, like, go into a place and close the door and then come out when you're ready.

Yeah, it's, it's very, I don't know, this, I think also too, it's, it's, it's, it's almost like the emotional version of like, trying to show people photos of your vacation. Like, no one cares. They weren't there. You know, absolutely. Give me the hit, you know, show me a really beautiful sunset. And I'm like, amazing. I'm so glad you enjoyed it, you know, and I think it's similar to like, our trauma or healing or whatever. Like, of course, anyone in your life cares, you know, and I would or I would hope they care and your friends and people, but like, to, they really want to sit in that stew with you. Like, like, like we need to for any of our own stuff. Probably

not know and what's so interesting about it is like, that's just so egocentric. All the while we're trying to, you know, move away from our ego, right? We're like, I'm working on detaching from my ego right now. And then you're like, oh, is this the part where you become as egotistical as possible so that you can like OD on it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just like, wow, you know, that's, that's a lot. It becomes a lot. It's just it just does, just does and I think if you're so far from it, you know, far away from yourself for so long that when you get this moment of like, oh, wow, maybe I should have be in relationship with that part of myself or think about that thing or heal that part that you just have like this tunnel vision Yes.

Oh, you Yes. You just articulated what I've been trying to articulate forever. Yes, it like the I think that's why I like laugh about it. And I have a fondness for anyone like myself and anyone when you're in that place, because it I do you think it's a good thing it is coming it is coming from a place of like you've been so out of touch. It's like you're falling in love with yourself a bit, you know, and, and stuff. But yeah, go separate. You know, go be with it. Go fall deeply in love with yourself, do it, you know, then come back. Totally. laugh sometimes, and I just cringe when I think about, like brunches where my friends were very kind, but I was like, okay, so that was chapter one of my healing journey. So just starting chapter two, should we get another round and they're like, gotta go, you know, it's like, I totally get it. And I didn't, it wasn't thinking of it as garden variety selfishness of like, I'm gonna dominate this brunch with like, my healing journey. It was out of excitement. It was wanting to share, like, Oh, I've experienced this thing. And I want to tell you all about it. It was born out of that. But it is also to I just laugh when I think about it now. And like, you know how much I didn't really care about others. At that point. I was so excited to be meeting myself like, you're right. It's such a good way to frame that. I'm curious, because I know my answer to this question. And I'm curious, is there something you feel as you grow older, that you're becoming more selfish about and you give zero fucks that you are? Yeah, he's maybe wrong, but like going in that direction?

Yeah, I think this will come as no surprise to you. But I think socially, I'm coming out of like, being really antisocial. Like, for the last four years, I've been like, strictly antisocial. And I have not thought it was selfish. But I don't think it was particularly maybe balanced either a little bit of, I don't know, little bit, this little bit of that. But right now I, I am becoming very selfish, I guess in like, I don't, everybody does not, I don't, I don't have to be to have this life that I used to have, or this life that I think I should have with this group of friends or that group of friends. I can be really selfish with my energy and my and who has access to it. And I don't have to feel bad about that. Because often I think that gets you know, like, oh, just just go wherever just hanging out with whoever just, like, be chill, and I just don't fucking want to and it doesn't feel good. So it's less like rebelling against something or being scared. I think in the past couple years, it's been this protection of like, I don't know how to navigate this right now. I'm too like, fresh from being a new mom. And I just don't know where I am kind of yet. And now it's more like, No, I'm selfish with my space. I'm selfish with my time and I don't care about what anyone thinks about it.

Yeah, I have a bit more. Now. It's more conscious.

Yeah. And more just like healthy. You know? And yeah, less. Like, I think I get really aggro about stuff. I don't know if you've noticed that about me twice. So I, you know, I kind of come out of the gate with stuff. Like, well, fuck that. I don't need to fuckin like, go fuck in, hang out with booking people. All right. And then I'm like,

Nina, sometimes when she's like, clearly has feelings is like a 90s movie and becomes like, the kid who like you, you find out really is like in foster care. Like, she'll be like, I don't fucking need anyone. Like, I don't need it. And then she's like, gosh, I think it was really about that I blah, blah, blah. Like, I've known I'm like, as is her process, you know? Like, it's just kind of funny.

Accurate. That's scary, accurate. Magic. When I was like, as a teenager,

I can't even oh my god, I wouldn't have been like, romashin. Like,

the drama. That was me. But But yeah, I think when I let things, I've let things settle. And so now, when I'm in that state, I'm defending something, even though I'm not Yes. Totally conscious of it. I'm defending it. Right. And I'm defending it to myself. Like, I'm not fully comfortable with what's happening. So I'm like, I do that. And people don't come near me to be like, but I'm like De Niro.

I think you also are good at like, I think the way you and I process is actually like opposite where it's like, you feel it and react. cuz you're like, I'm uncomfortable, or I don't feel good. And you go into like defense mode, you know, like, yeah, you act. And then it's like you give word to it or language and then you're like, Oh, I think this is what's going on or think I, I just need distance, you know, it's like, then you, whereas I'm like, I think I need distance, and then it like, works its way down for me, you know, it's like, yours, like, works its way up and like mine works its way down in terms of like, figuring out like, why did we do that thing? Why don't we? Like, why did we yell and then do that? It's like, Oh, I was scared.

Oh, I think I'll be like, lying in bed like, oh, oh, totally.

Whereas I'm, you know, I'm like, Why have I wanted to bar for three days? And I'm like,

it and I instantly want to barf. Like, instantly. Like, in that moment. What do you think? Are some of the ways that people can I want to say stop that feels like such a like, but become less selfish? If you're feeling like, Oh, am I like, in my zone right now of am I getting a little self absorbed? Or am I just kind of forgetting about the people around me a lot of selfishness, I think, is defined by like other people not receiving from you. And I don't mean in a way of like, Yeah, but like even listening, like, you might not be listening to them. Or you just might again, be like, in your bubble and forgetting that other people also might Yeah, need some some space

I think the easiest thing is to do something for someone else, and not what you think they want, not what you but literally what they want you to do for them. You know, like, if that's a charitable thing of like, you know, I see it all the time. Like, I follow all these dog rescues, you know, and they'll be like, we've just, you know, rescued a litter of puppies, if you can donate, that'd be great. And people are like, I'd love a puppy. Like, they didn't ask for people to take puppies, they asked for money, you know. So I think sometimes, like, the first thing is to like, literally take yourself out of it and be like, What is this person was like asking for. And I think it can be helpful as a reset to do it with some sort of like, out of your life, and then practice it with someone in your life. And I mean, thanks to like, things being insane, like, everyone seems to have something going on. And rather than assuming how maybe your friend or, you know, partner, mom, like anyone wants you to show up, like, ask that they changed a lot for me in terms of my own stuff and my own, like, so often, I think our selfishness, like is well intentioned, you know, it's like, I would drive myself crazy trying to think of like, you know, I'll never forget when a friend of mine was cheated on by their person. And I was like, Oh, my God, code read, oh, my God, you know, and was like, how are we gonna get her through this? You know, I was like, Oh, my God, and I, and I didn't say anything for a second. And I was like, you don't need to know how to fix her breakup. That's not your work. That's not your job. You just need to know how to be her friend. And I just literally texted back and was like, this is such a big deal. I don't even know how to respond. I don't even know how to show up for you. Well, what do you want? Do you want me to take you out to dinner? Get you really fucking drunk? Do you want me to, you know, do you want space? Do you want to talk shit? Like, what? What would what feels good to you? You know, and she was like, thank you for this menu. I would like to go to dinner and have a really special drink. And I was like, we will do that tomorrow. You know, like, yeah, and it was really good for me to learn, like, ask, you know, like it. I think like, sometimes when I get really in my own stuff, like, I forget that like curiosity is a really good pathway out of being like to close down. Regardless if that's closed down and fear closed down and selfishness closed down. You know, like, curiosity and going like, I wonder how everybody else is, I wonder, you know, like, learn something new watch a documentary about something you've never even a million years thought about? Like I think a big thing you can do and especially in like today's day and age is in the economy of attention is if you feel maybe your attention has been too focused on yourself. gift it to somewhere else.

Oh, well. Hello with that line. I mean, the economy of attention. Why don't you just

are draining a lot been reading a lot lately when not being terrified by thunderstorms?

I mean, is that are we just all selfish now?

I think so. I mean, Look at all these things that I think we are selfish. And I don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish. My thing is you can I think it's only cool to be selfish, as long as you have a strong, like altruistic practice or a strong like, you know, selflessness practice, like you obviously do, because you're a mom, you have to be selfless all the time. I don't think you want to get up at six o'clock in the morning. But you do and with a smile, because your son's like, oh, wait, I'm singing every day, you know. And it's like, for you to do that you might need to be like, and you know, like, at five, I go dark. You know, like, that's, like, I think that stuff's fine. Because I think the only way we can really be in connection with anyone else is like, if we're in deep connection with ourselves. So all these people who are like, I mean, think of all the troops about kind of like, I think like Midwestern, you know, housewives that just give for their children. And they're, you know, and wake up when all the kids have gone to school, and they're like, I'm miserable. It's like, it doesn't work for anyone to just be selfless. It's not, not Jesus, there's no point. There's not gonna, we're not gonna get holidays, we're not gonna get a parade. Like, nothing's come in. And I think a lot of people who do this sort of performative, selflessness or martyrdom or whatever, like, that's not good, either. So I think we have to embrace our selfishness in order to make it healthy. And that, that way we can go we can advocate for others, we can be allies, we can like, you know, call out things that are happening, because we're not so like, constantly focused on our needs being met that we can't see anyone else.

No, I totally agree. I do think that our as a whole, we are so much, you know, in this space of just like, weird individualism, but like, not in a good way. A lot of the time where we don't consider like the whole right, obviously. Yeah, I think that that's how I think selfishness shows up. Just societally in this way of like, it's every man for themselves. I mean, COVID was just such a huge example of like, I don't give a fuck if I'm killing your grandma. Like, that's not my problem. Like, I need to not wear a mask in the grocery store. It's like, okay, Dick. But, like, think about everybody else. And so that I think has been so disappointing for me just to see how far gone we are like, we're not coming back. I don't know if we were ever there. But I don't think we're ever going to be there.

Yeah, I don't know that we were ever there. I think. And I think a lot of the people, I felt this way when Trump won, to be honest, and a lot of friends who had been political for like three minutes. We're like, I can't believe color it when the and I was like, Where have you been?

Like, the people that were shocked. were shocking to me.

And I feel a bit that way and like about certain things in certain things that I think are like really divisive in the US right now that I'm like, yeah, like we've like, this is this is why like, I feel like I become progressively less and less fun. Because I'm like, no fun that came. Like that came at someone's expense, like cool choice to not mass cool choice not to max like cool choice. Like you may have killed someone you feel good about that? You know, like,

I just were no, like really fun. No fun. Yeah, it

would. But when you say that people are like, whoa, that's intense. And you're like, well, so was death. You know, like, I

can't wait till you hear of death.

Like, that's like what's crazy to me sometimes that I feel like, you know, I see this actually, it's interesting, as a woman, being partnered in business with another woman and witnessing like that, I feel like you and I get treated like different forms of like sexism in a way. And I think it's like interesting that someone like you, I think it's a little bit of that projection of selfishness just because like, you maintain your space and your energy and your boundaries. But like, I read something the other day, that was like, people pleasers aren't honest or something, and I was like reading this thing about it. And it's true. So it's like, why are that you can't really trust what a people pleaser says or does, you know, and there's not fully like intention behind their actions because they're doing whatever they think someone else is gonna like, you know? Yep. So I think it's like what do we expect in a society when often it's like we had a situation where you had a clear boundary and you were Being really cool about it, but you're just kind of like, Hey, can this be accommodated? And I felt like you were super gaslit over it. And like, what are we going to do in a society when we're when we like preach all these things like on social, we do all these things for clout, but then when it comes down to the practice, it's like, oh, the person doing the thing that we're saying we should probably do in order to be healthy and connect and stuff. We're gonna like, villain. Yeah, and then be like, just and just bulldoze on this other in, but then act like, you know, like, all of that stuff makes me feel crazy. All of that stuff, when we're saying like, this is the problem, when really, it's more than reaction to the problems that are happening. It like, makes me feel crazy. And I feel like selfishness is a similar thing, where so often that people who are being like sort of, you know, ruled about selfishness are the ones like trying to like kind of accommodate everyone I feel like, and it's like, the people who don't even think about it, are the ones, you know, being like, You're selfish. And it's like, you're not getting your way is not the same as selfishness. That's not the same thing.

I had a call with this, I found out how young he was on the call, but this magazine here and today, and he was we were talking about him coming to the farm to do something to interview way and then interview me for something. And he was so sweet. And he was like, yeah, it's just full transparency, I don't know if I'm going to be able to come because they don't want to pay for me to go there. And I don't really want to take a week, you know, a day of my weekend, and pay to get there and all that. And he wasn't being like, Woe is me. He was just literally telling me the facts. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is like, a healthy version of his generation that I often get very frustrated with, because it's like, I'm just not coming. I have my period. And it's like, do you know, any fucking periods? I've had? Do you know how many periods I've had? And I've had to go places. Like, that's not you can't just not be in the world. Right. But he was so an obviously, he is he, but the way he articulated it was just like, that's not something I'm, I feel like I need to do or I want to do, but I want to do this. So can we find something that works for everyone? And I was just like, Yeah, you should definitely not come here on a weekend and drive yourself and pay your money, like they should be doing that. Their magazine, but I just thought it was a very balanced and grounded way to be selfish, you know?

Yeah. I wish that selfish could get maybe get a makeover and be more regarded as just like, self protective or self interested. You know, like, that was him protecting his self interest. And I think this comes up, especially in the workplace over and over and over again. That's somewhere to go back to your earlier question. That's somewhere I was definitely gaslit that if I didn't want to accept shitty pay, or whatever, I was being selfish, like, family,

you're not one of the team. Yeah, you want to leave before the 10 million Happy Hour has ended. And by happier I mean, like, 10 o'clock at night, it's like, Bitch gets a real friend. Like, I'm out. I want to go to bed. But 100% And it's 100% Why remember when I quit the modeling agency, and I went up to my boss, and he he was, you know, the president. And we had this meeting and he was so fucking condescending. And he was like, I mean, your health matters to us as well. And I'm like, No, it doesn't you think that this is all a lie? You don't think I like it was so clear that he was just like, yourself as your you don't want to be part of this, like a network changing fashion situation and like, so whatever. And I was just like, how sad that you think that that all of you are drinking this Kool Aid of and where is it going to get you? Where is it going to get you? Yeah, because maybe two I have no doubt. I didn't meet anyone there that was like happy. They were all pretty miserable in one way or another.

Do you think with being selfish or selfishness that it's something that we would all benefit by just sort of adopting an agree to disagree kind of policy because I think about it often when you You know, like with friends when they're like, can you chat now and you're like, I can't, and I'm like, Oh, I'm really bummed. I just wanted to talk to you. And it's like, sort of annoying. That, to me is like a battle of the selfishness of like, I'm being selfish. You're saying, This isn't the time for me, they're thinking, I'm being selfish, because they want my time now, you know, whatever. And it's like, it's, it's kind of benign, but it's like, they can think I'm selfish, and I can go about my day the way I needed to, and it's like, agree to disagree. You know, it's like, I think it helps all of us if we if we start dismantling, like selfishness, like, I don't think most of us are being like, toxically, selfish, you know, I think most of us are trying to be healthy, selfish, let's give us all the benefit of doubt there, you know, that I think it can be really helpful to get into touch of like, Where does your selfishness really show up? If you start sort of realizing someone always being unhappy or not giving people what they want, doesn't make you selfish. It sort of like, you know, it's like boundaries, you know what I mean? That, like, you're not a bad person for having a boundary, but people don't always like them.

No, and you said something that I was on the tip of my tongue, you just said it in a different way. Assumptions, like we're constantly assuming that if we don't like what the other person is putting down that they're being selfish in some way, right? Or a lot, we assume that a lot. And, and then resentment builds. You know, I know, there are friends of mine who probably think that if I can't talk, or I'm like, oh, you know, my low sleeping, it's like, well, why can't you just like, go downstairs? You know what I mean? Like, because like, that's, I'm not doing that right now. Because I don't want it tired. And my hours have passed, my talking hours are now done. My office is closed, personally, unless something is really happening. Right. But I so I do think agree to disagree. But also, you know, redefine it a little bit like get clear on what I mean, was I crystal clear on what I thought selfishness was before we got on here. I mean, I thought so. But it's very complex. And there's a lot of different layers to it, and stuff that's been imposed upon us and stuff that we've, you know, just kept with us from a long time ago, that maybe keeps us from doing things that we would actually be really good for, for us as individuals. And then as a result, collective group, whatever, right? The family, the community, the world, but we're so entrenched in this like, No, I can't do that. That's selfish. No, I can't do that. No, I can't do that, that we don't really end up living, I think fully, and that that's a challenge that becomes a challenge for everyone that doesn't that just I think we have so many people living half lives.

I 100% agree. And I know we have to wrap up. And I would say that like, the same people, when you say like, I want to do this, who make you think like, that's too selfish, or you're being selfish, I find are often the same people. If you come back and you say, like, I wasted that year of my life, I wanted to go to blah, and I didn't and like you made me, you know, are gonna be like, sorry, like, it's even right now for that conversation. Exactly, exactly. So I think it's another place where it's really important, like a lot of other things. And now I feel like I'm starting to sound like a conspiracy. Consider conspiracy theorists, there we go. Of being like, consider how people benefit by making you believe you're selfish, you know, does that make you like, do what they want more often? I know, that's not a trap. I've been, you know, fallen into, like, it can be helpful to kind of go like, how like, also does it I know it's made me also take like less risks in my life like not figure as much Oh, I don't want to be self that would be so selfish or whatever. And I didn't want to push past my discomfort. So like, I think when that fires like in your either you think you're being selfish or someone's made you question your selfishness, like, push it, you know, like, ask yourself about that. Remember what the definition is, is what you're doing, really about saying fuck everybody, like, I'm gonna do me. Sometimes we have to do that. And other times it's negative to do that, like, where are you falling on that? Yeah,

I also wouldn't leave you with no one is coming to save you. You have Yes, you just got to do it yourself. And that's not the sexy answer. I just had a reading move for this and it was like, you know, a made the world and the it's the universe in this deck. And it was just like, all like completion and celebration, and I was like, but here's the thing like you have to show up for it. It's exactly what I said. I'm like, bad news. Like, it's you who must push it over that line. She was like, oh, but it's the truth. So we asked herself, yes. What is this actually selfish? And then what do I want? What do I want? It seems so simple. And so, but I was talking to this with my trainer today, he's like, people don't think they can. They're like, Oh, I can't just pick up and leave. I can't pick up and move. It's like, yes. Is it absolutely more challenging for some than others? 100% There are many factors. But you can always choose differently. And that might feel selfish in the moment, and you might be uncomfortable. But if in the long run it, it makes you happier. And as a result, you try to be in the world and help other people be happier. Even if that's just by being a more decent human being. Then all of us win. Yeah, sure. Well, thanks for listening. I

learned a lot I'm in. Yeah, thanks. So

long are law that I'm a 90s just like icon. So I am happy with that. It's That's what you said. You said I'm a 90s icon and what the rest of my day till next time.

Till next time.

That's all for today's episode.

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