Welcome to the VP Life Podcast, the show
where we bring you actionable health
advice from leading minds.
I'm your host, Rob.
My guest today is Cheryl Dunn, Managing
Director and the founder of Nationwide
Pathology, a UCAS-accredited private
laboratory she launched back in 2011
after more than 30 years
in the field of pathology.
Expect to learn why private health care
and blood testing are growing rapidly in
the UK and where the NHS is currently
falling short, how modern pathology labs
operate behind the scenes, from advanced
analyzers to emerging technologies like
AI, and how accessible, preventative
testing can help identify health issues
early and improve long-term outcomes.
Now, on to the
conversation with Cheryl Dunn.
Good afternoon, Cheryl,
and welcome to the podcast.
This is going to be an
interesting show today.
It's something that's
definitely new for us in any case.
Of course, we talked about diagnostics
and biomarkers and blood work a fair
amount in the past, but we've never
really, I suppose, taken a dive of any
depth into what your side of the industry
is like and what makes it tick and why
private health care, I suppose, is
growing at the rate that it is.
So, yeah, this is a conversation I'm
excited to share with the listeners and
your audience as well.
In any case, before we dive into what
makes a pathology service tick, would you
mind introducing yourself, who you are,
what you do, all that good stuff?
Yeah, my name is Cheryl Dunn.
I am a biomedical scientist by trade and
have been for quite a long time, worked
in the NHS and the private industry for
40 plus years, which
is a bit scary nowadays.
So, yeah, so I started Nationwide Volley
in 2011 and I'm currently MD and
laboratory director of that company.
And it's an interesting
industry to be in, definitely.
It's exciting and I still enjoy it.
I know a lot of people look to retire at
points in their life, but I've got no
intention of doing that because it still
really interests me being able to deliver
a pathology service
to people who need it.
Yeah, no, you know what they say?
You don't get old because you don't stop
playing because you get old, you get old
because you stop playing.
And I think that rings
true for any profession.
I think the moment you retire,
all the wheels fall off, don't they?
And I think if you keep yourself going
and going, then you're more likely to
sort of age effectively, although that's
probably a different conversation.
What got you into
biomedical science to begin with?
What was your initial sort
of call, I suppose, there?
So originally I actually decided what I
wanted to do when I was at school.
I always loved science, lived in the city
of Birmingham at the time when things by
nudge weren't really
available to me to go to university.
My actual family friend was in those days
a medical laboratory scientific officer
in Wales, and she used to take me in the
holidays to the lab.
And I just was really interested in it.
So at the age of 14, I wrote to all the
hospitals and said, when I do my
O-levels, can you give me a job?
And the day in my O-levels came out, I
had some letters come through the post.
That said, would you like
to come from an interview?
So that's really how I started.
I've never done anything
different from that day.
And I definitely
formerly chose the right career.
Fair enough.
Well, I suppose that's
quite fortuitous, one might say.
OK, so let's dive into it.
And maybe a bit of an odd place to start
talking, to start off with.
But how did you get
nationwide off the ground?
You mentioned you
started the company in 2011.
Now, color me curious, but I suppose how
does one start a pathology lab?
I mean, there are plenty of us who've got
centrifuges, microscopes and stains
floating around sort of
under the kitchen sink at home.
Maybe that's just me
actually, come to think of it.
But yeah, how did you sort of go from
this private sector?
I think you were in the NHS as well to
then getting nationwide off the ground.
I reckon it's probably quite the endeavor
to begin with at least.
Yeah, definitely.
As I say, I've always
been really passionate.
I worked in managed private lab for 20
years and worked with him after the NHS.
And when it's not your company, I wasn't
going in the direction
that I thought we could go in.
And that's difficult when
you're not your own boss.
So there were lots of conversations and a
lot of people said to me, you should be
doing this on your own.
You've got some really good ideas.
But financially, to set
up a lab is very difficult.
So as a family, we took a real risk.
We basically put everything on the line
and thought, if we're going to go for
this and do the things that we want to
do, then we'll do it.
And really, I've set up the lab with
machinery from some companies that I've
been involved with over the years.
They took a risk on what I believed in
and sat in a room with a load of
equipment on my own and
waited for the phone to ring.
And that's where we started.
And we just went from
strength to strength.
I think I knew the industry very well.
So when what people wanted and we've
developed into the company we are now,
it's still very family.
We try to treat all our stuff
like it's a family environment.
We haven't sold out to anyone.
My husband and I are the sole directors.
And we get excited
about what we can deliver.
We've moved.
This is our third move and hopefully our
final move to the premises right now.
And it is difficult.
It's difficult whatever
business you start up in.
I think you just have to really believe
in what you're delivering to keep going.
But, you know, there are late
nights or still late nights.
People think, you know, you have this
fantastic life when you've got a business
that is doing well and actually the
effort that goes in behind the scenes is
a lot more than people realize.
People don't, whoever in business don't
have holidays, they might go on holidays.
They ultimately think about
work or do work constantly.
And I'm happy with that.
So I think we're doing the right thing
and I get great enjoyment in seeing the
people we help through offering the
service that we offer.
Yeah.
No, I think your first business is always
about fundamentally learning business as
much as it is sort of
delivering the product.
Just to speak to what you've just said.
And yeah, it's a labor of
love at the end of the day.
You can't sort of go into
entrepreneurship and
expect it to be easy.
And as you've no doubt sort of picked up
along the way, I think business is
fundamentally the game of solving both
your problems and other people's problems
as they arrive and as they arise.
It's kind of a combination of creating a
really good product and a really good
service, figuring out how to sell it and
then putting up fires on the back end.
In any case, when you sort of in the
early days, were you sort of running
most, were you doing most analytical?
Can were you running the labs and on and
all of that side of it?
Yeah.
So I did all of the testing in the
beginning and all of the admin work.
And, you know, eventually as we got
busier and busier, we brought people in
to help all those sides.
Obviously, you need someone to answer the
phone or you can put resorts.
So we just grew organically, customer
wise and staff wise.
And we've got some staff that have been
with us for nearly the
duration of that time.
And it helps that I was on the ground.
I know how it started and I can do
everything that I expect
everyone else to do now.
And, you know, we've got children
involved who are now part of the business
and they all work
their way from the bottom.
So we all sort of learn everything.
So you don't, you know, how long
something takes and you know what you're
expecting somebody to do.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And I can just speak to the quality of
the staff that you have.
Not that this is an ad, especially, but
you really do have amazing staff.
You mentioned recently
that you've moved again.
Is this sort of a final
and that being a final move?
Is that just sort of
from a point of expansion?
Have you got new units in?
Is that sort of the
reason for the move or?
So basically we've grown to labs,
Dinto and an opportunity came up actually
where we live at the moment
where there was an empty bar.
And to make life easier,
we thought we might as well convert this
building into a purpose built lab, which
meant that we could have windows where we
wanted them and we could look after our
staff better, give
them a better environment.
It's also four times the size of the lab
we move from the space.
And we thought we'd have loads of room,
but actually nine months later, it's
absolutely jump packed.
Right.
Be looking for more space.
But I think it is a
permanent site where we are.
We're in an ideal location right in the
middle of the country.
M1, M6, Cogdoor.
We've got a train line to
London that's 55 minutes.
So we're well sat actually that we don't
get those snarls of samples trying to get
to us, even though we're not in London or
not in this big city.
It works really well for us.
Fair enough.
Yeah, I suppose having a background in
biomedical science has
definitely helped you.
Do you think that that
training sort of, I suppose,
really, I suppose it did actually help
you get established.
Is this something that someone would,
without your background, could
potentially get into as
well, setting up a pathology lab?
Or do you think you need that technical
experience if you maybe don't have a
technical partner off the bat to help?
I think you definitely do need a
technical experience in the field,
whether that's you implore somebody to do
that part of it or not.
But I think it helps.
I think there are some labs that set up
in Covid and Covid was a test.
And that's one test, one lot for this
control, one lot of results that can
possibly go wrong or
there's issues with it.
When you're actually into the rounds of
having a private pathology lab, there are
hundreds of tests you are doing.
And that's a lot
different to doing one test.
And I think people find that in Covid,
they set up labs to
just do Covid testing.
And then they'll all
delve into this market.
And I think some of them have struggled a
little bit with that concept.
One, because there's a lot of machinery
you need to do these
tests, which is expensive.
You have to have partners that are ready
to put that amount of equipment and
you've got to have the work and volume as
well to cover those costs.
And the quality side is
very difficult as well.
It's expensive and it's very laborious
and it's very technical.
So you need somebody very experienced to
be able to help you with that quality
side of it in your UCAS accreditation.
Yeah, no, that's a perfect segue
actually, because the next thing I wanted
to talk about was UCAS accreditation.
But before we get there,
though, you mentioned Covid.
Maybe the last question I'll ask here,
just regarding the start up here
regarding nationwide.
But how did you sort
of move through Covid?
I assume it had a positive effect on the
business at that time and space.
Definitely.
It was very difficult.
We were all at the point where we didn't
know what was going to happen.
I personally thought we
could all die from this flu.
At the very beginning, it was very scary.
And even though as labs do PCR testing,
that is done, it wasn't
used on a real team basis.
So to be able to facilitate the amount of
testing we did was quite
challenging at the time.
It was really exciting to be in that
world of biomedical science at the time.
We didn't know what was positive or what
was negative necessarily.
We did some of the first Covid testing.
We obviously helped in
that chest, our points.
We did by the end of Covid, we were doing
15,000 Covid tests a day
and sent 15,000 kits out.
So it was a big learning curve.
We had to think on the hoof, there were
lots of talks with the government and
other scientists
about how we approach it.
Financially, it was obviously very good
for the labs that did big testing.
And that's probably allowed us to
reinvest into a lot more testing post
Covid, which is the exciting bit.
Because as I said before, to bring new
tests is their expensive bits and pieces.
And you need the capital behind you to be
able to facilitate that testing.
Well, there's always a silver lining.
So in any case,
working in the supplement industry, which
is sort of the background
over here behind the podcast,
I'm fairly familiar with
testing of various sorts.
And I know if you want your products to
stand out in the market and to have any
chance of being taken seriously, they
need to be tested by a UCAS accredited
lab, something you mentioned earlier.
Now, obviously, a
different sort of testing.
But for the audience, would you mind
breaking down what UCAS accreditation is
and then maybe why it's
important to have that as a lab?
UCAS accreditation probably underpins
quality of results you are delivering.
It's changed over the years.
UCAS accreditation some years ago, it
used to be called something
else and they accredited a lab.
Whereas now UCAS
accreditation is on each individual test.
So they come in and they inspect us, but
they go through every part of the
business from recruitment to your
website, to terms and conditions, to them
drilling down to each individual test.
And those individual tests are assessed
on a strict regime according to an
accreditation schedule
that you have to fulfill.
But part of that is that we carry out
internal quality control every day, maybe
testing sometimes twice a day on tests we
do to make sure we're achieving a set
result that we know from an own sample.
And we also take part in
external quality insurance.
So you are it's a blind testing when you
get samples sent to your lab, you test
them, send back and then you all compared
to your peers really.
So there are certainly labs take part to
do, for example, he would go and test and
everyone's compared against each other.
And also you compared against methods
because every method or every different
manufacturer has
slightly different variables.
So you can see whether you're achieving
the same result as all the other Siemens
users in the country.
So internally, it's really good for
quality because you can see instantly
there's something going on with the test
and that might not be at lab level.
That might be a manufacturer level if
they get in old resorts or things are
quite where they'd expect them to be.
So we do that for every test we do.
You have to have specialist people who
can inspect those particular tests and
that's quite challenging for them.
It's a hard job for them to get round all
these labs, and inspect all of
the tests that they're doing.
And that's why sometimes the schedule of
accreditation for labs doesn't cover
every test because sometimes it can take
you two years to get a test on that
schedule, which is quite challenging.
But it's because we've got that medical
level of UCAS accreditation in our lab,
it underpins to our clients that actually
we follow the same protocols for all of
the tests we're doing in-house.
And we follow the same
procedures, so it gives them...
We're sure.
We're sure that we are doing everything
to the best of our
ability of that sample.
But obviously it's difficult.
We're not hospitals, so we haven't got
patients on wards for us.
Our work comes in like careers or post.
So you don't always know what sample,
what's happened to that
sample, wherever it is.
It could be taken
anywhere in the country.
But we do our best to be able to say,
right, on that sample, on that day, this
is the test result we've
achieved, and this is...
We've got all this underlying quality
control that we put in place to say that
that's what we've
achieved on that sample.
There is some due diligence required by
the customer, the physician, the
phlebotomist, etc., to make sure that
samples and specimens are obviously
labeled accordingly.
So you can then make a calculated
decision on whether that sample is still
viable when it arrives at the lab.
I think ultimately what this
accreditation seems to provide is just
consistency with regards to test
specificity and sensitivity across just
all, as you mentioned,
labs and machines and units.
And so, I mean, that's the fact that
you've got it obviously just speaks
volumes to the type of
service that you're running.
So that's incredible.
Joe, I'd love to switch gears a bit and
then I suppose talk about maybe what
makes Nationwide a little
different from the norm.
Now, starting off, how's your lab set up
in terms of equipment?
I reckon you've probably got a little
more than I do stored under the kitchen
sink and in the room closet.
Yes, definitely.
We've got a massive amount of equipment.
We try and do as much as we can in-house
and if we don't, if we've got a demand
for it, we get some equipment in that we
can do those tests on.
Obviously, every test is done on
different equipment.
Our core equipment is Siemens Atelica
analyzers and we do
our routine biochemistry,
our immunology on
those mainline machines.
That's quite an automated system.
We've got a new bit of equipment, which
is a track system that joins all those
analyzers together, which
makes us more efficient.
But there are lots of companies that
we've got equipment for in the lab.
We've got LCMS, we've got PCR machines,
we've got electrophoresis machines,
hematology analyzers,
and certain analyzers
do different things.
We've got an immuno light that
we've run allergy testing on.
We also do IgE and IgG allergy.
There's a lot of equipment and hopefully
our website will be updated soon and
people will see the pictures of the new
lab and see actually what
it looks like inside of them.
I suppose all your machines are
constantly calibrated.
Does this account for drift within your
mass spec machines and
things like that as well?
Everything is calibrated, everything is
close to controlled every day and
sometimes twice a day.
Sometimes we do the morning and we do an
afternoon callers to control and run on
our most common tests.
Okay, that's impressive to say the least.
And to be honest, it
sounds like my idea of heaven.
Maybe a bit of a technical question, but
are you doing any sort of ultra sensitive
hormone testing using
LCMS, MS, anything like that?
Obviously you get different sort of
assays or test types of
audience looking at hormones.
Maybe as an example, you get ultra
sensitive estradiol, for example, versus
just an immune based assay.
Are you looking at these ultra sensitive?
Are you offering these
ultra sensitive tests yet?
Or are they more just
sort of run of the mill?
We
will be.
We've just invested in LCMS because we
recognize that hormones, testosterone and
estradiols are much
more accurate on LCMS.
And that's something we've just put in
and we'll be launching in the next month
also to offer our menopause clinics and
our testosterone and plasma therapy
clinics a more accurate way of testing.
And that's something that I'm really
interested in at the moment.
Oh,
also nice music to my ears because yeah,
working with the old client and yeah, the
moment they have, they're on any form of
HRT, obviously those sort of, yeah, let's
call them traditional sort of tests tend
to be less reliable.
So I'm really glad to hear that because
yeah, that is definitely USP.
I can't think of many
labs who offer that.
So that's exciting to hear.
Right.
So recently I went to my GP to get some
blood thrown and believe it or not, I
actually managed to get
them to run serum copper,
which surprised me.
Normally, that's a bit of a juggling act.
And yeah, I got cross
question for an hour beforehand.
But yeah, all came back except the
copper, which I was told would
take a few weeks to get done.
That that's kind of stumped me to be a
bit honest, I must admit as I believe you
correct me if I'm wrong, I think most
minerals are just sort of analyzed
through atomic absorption spectroscopy.
Again, I'm probably just very naive here,
but that strikes me as a bit strange that
as sort of a government based institution
doesn't have sort of regular
access to this sort of kit.
Anyway, I suppose an actual question
which sort of goes back
to when I asked previously,
how does a private lab like yours differ
from a traditional NHS setup and yeah,
what you've already discussed or well,
I've mentioned off likely fairly limited.
I think NHS pathways are different.
And I think you've encountered that when
you go to GP and you want particular
tests that isn't in an NHS pathway or you
don't fit the criteria for that test.
So a lot of NHS labs don't have that
specialized testing and they're not often
used referral labs for that.
How we differ is we try to off all of
that and do what roof.
So we will do vitamins and minerals on a
sample we do we send
very little work out.
We like to keep control of our samples.
So for example, if you go to a doctor and
you ask for they suspect you've got a
thyroid issue, they might just send it
off for a T-sage because
that's all there to do.
Whereas we will do a whole thyroid panel,
which actually gives a better picture.
And if there is a result that is
different, then the GP or the private
doctor has that in front of them straight
away instead of sending the patient back
for another blood test.
So we try to do more comprehensive
testing that gives a
bigger picture, I think.
And in order to be able to do that as a
private lab, you have to have that
testing equipment in the house and you
don't question what
you're being requested to do.
So I would decide whether it's relevant,
clinical relevant to do certain tests on
the sample that comes into us whereas NHS
labs have to ask that question, why are
we doing this test on this patient that's
costing the NHS money?
Yeah,
no, I suppose that's a bigger issue
potentially talking about NHS guidelines
and why they will and
won't do certain tests.
But I think thyroid testing is
completely, it's a mess.
I mean, I'm sure you can speak to this
too, but looking at someone's T-sage and
just sort of hoping that your cover all
bases just by looking at one signaling
molecule is definitely not enough.
And I suppose that sort of speaks to a
reason why an individual should look to
go private with testing to begin with,
especially if there's maybe a bit more of
a complex medical condition or they are
struggling to get the answers that they
need out of their GP.
Hopefully something we can come back to a
little later on in the conversation.
Anyway, last time I checked, which was
when I had some caffeine in me, we were
in 2025 and we are slowly, well, not
slowly actually, we're fast moving into
this sort of area of well, everything
artificial intelligence.
Now,
there are various companies popping out
the woodwork here that are starting to
sort of amalgamate sort of, I suppose,
quote unquote
traditional testing with AI.
The clearly scan in the States being a
perfect example of this, which is
starting to utilize CTN geography along
with these AI engines to create, well,
results that look at calcium deposits in
the body with far more accuracy than
maybe just CTN geography by itself or
traditional CAC
school, something like that.
Have you thought about AI at all?
And are you looking to sort of
potentially integrate it
into your services yet?
Or is that something that's maybe a
couple of years down
the line for you guys?
I think for me, it's about the testing we
do and the quality of testing to do.
I think the
interpretation of it may come in.
I'm not 100% confident it
will work for everybody.
And that's the risk.
I think it is, knowing it's probably
someone, you know, good to me, that will
look into that and say, actually, you
know, this is going to come in.
And I know there are companies out there
experimenting with it.
I don't know how that evolves when you're
safe from the patient, whether people
have done comparisons of what something
AI would clinically diagnose
compared to a normal doctor.
And I think we just need to be.
It is out there and it will come.
But where we are with it
at the moment, I don't know.
For me, the important bit is us getting
the latest technology and the best test
results we can out there to enable
somebody to be able to do
a diagnosis on a patient.
On
the back end, yes, I suppose it's the
case of it ain't broke.
Don't fix it, really.
Fair enough.
Well, of course, it's, as you mentioned,
it's the future and it's something I'm
definitely excited to see develop.
In any case, I'd like to pivot again into
something else that maybe
I'm a little more clued up on.
And that's the preventative
care side of the equation.
Now, part of what I do with the clients
that I work with is obviously
has a lot to do with testing.
Now, in the past, I've tried to work with
maybe clients, PCP, their primary care
physician, to help them keep the costs
down and get the testing done like that.
But it's never worked.
It's always painful.
It's back and forth.
And now I rely predominantly
on labs such as yourselves.
From your point of view, though, why do
you think more people are looking to
optimize their, who are looking to
optimize their health?
Excuse me.
I'll start on to turn to private labs and
to help them keep track of the testing
that they're choosing to run.
I think people are more aware of their
health in general now.
And I think COVID has taught the general
public that actually there is a lab out
there and there is
access to private testing.
I think that's changed a lot.
I think telemedicine is important.
People don't have to
go somewhere to do it.
But the NHS is fantastic and it does what
it does for acute care really well.
We all want to be healthy.
I think that is the way that
we all want to live longer.
We all want to have
better quality of life.
And I think we're all more aware of our
health and what we can
do to help that process.
And I think that's where the private
pathology market will expand massively.
Because people take supplements, they
want to live longer.
They're looking at things.
They're looking at different biomarkers
than you would in the NHS.
And monitoring their health, I think.
And I think it's important that private
labs offer that service because I don't
necessarily think the NHS
should offer that service.
We're trying to get cost
down, bring things in house.
And the more we do with that testing, the
cheaper it will become.
Because instead of doing one test,
you'll suddenly...
test kits tend to come in a batch of 100.
So if you're doing one and it goes off in
30 days, you incur the
whole cost of that test kit.
If you could do 100,
you're splitting that cost down.
And what we do at Major Microbiology, we
really try and pass that cost reduction
on as soon as we've got demand or it's
costing us less to do.
Because there's no poor offering to test
that's going to cost a thousand pound
because no one's going to do it and it
becomes inaccessible to people.
But if you can offer something for 20,
because you're doing probably not be,
then it makes more sense.
That makes perfect sense.
And it's definitely a business model I
can get behind, especially again, when
working with clients and sort of
oftentimes you will try and get them to
run a few different tests at all at once.
And yeah, those bills
really do add up very quickly.
So that's awesome to hear.
So I suppose a lot of companies in this
space have launched or starting to sort
of build out these
direct to consumer models.
This obviously has its pros and cons.
I would have thought with your clinical
support team, that's maybe it's something
that you would start to look at offering.
I'd love to chat about your support team
in a second, by the way.
Is this sort of something that you're
considering this sort of, yeah, this DTC
model or you primarily just still looking
to work through practitioners?
We try and work through
practitioners when we can.
One of the reasons is we don't want to
compete with our own customers.
I know some labs are happy that they are
offered to the general public.
We did in COVID, obviously, because we
had to offer to the public in COVID.
I think it helps.
I think there are a lot of private GPs
and telemedicine companies that can help
people and we can help facilitate that testing.
But I really do like having that
relationship with our GPs and it might be
physios, it might be people who work in
the gym, but we like having, helping them
provide a service to their customers or
their group of people as well.
It's not about individual consumer
testing for us because I think there are
other platforms that do that quite well.
Menopause and Test Australia
are classic examples of that.
There are companies that have thousands
of clients on there.
They're books and we just deal with the
GPs, that run all the
physios and the people.
So I think where we can, we try to deal
business to business rather than DTC.
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
I suppose it's kind of the old adage, you
sort of stick to a warehouse focus on
what you do well and then let everybody
else sort of, I suppose,
pick up a slack on the backend.
Just out of interest, are you supporting
any of these sort of platforms on the
backend with their testing services?
Yeah, there's a lot of the online
companies that we do the testing for and
we facilitate, which is different to a
lot of other labs, we facilitate through
Botany, which was a
big hole in the market.
So if you're doing online consultation
and you need to go and have your blood
taken, it was very difficult to find
somewhere that can do that.
And we facilitate that
for all our customers.
That's an add-on service we do.
So we've got from Botany clinics all
around the country that CQC registered
and we have patient's bonus that are
referred by their clinics and we put
their postcode on and try and facilitate
that from Botany, whether that's with a
clinic based from Botany or
whether it's a mobile service.
So we've worked very hard since we first
began really offering a free botany
service across the country.
We've streamlined that and I think that's
a very good add-on for our customers and
a lot of people use this because we offer
that service and we do it very well.
Yeah,
you definitely do.
And again, I mean, it's something I've
used as well with the
clients I work with.
And it is required because unlike,
yeah, I suppose I'm the exception to the
rule, but very few people are willing to
flip optimize themselves like I am.
So it's a case of do as I say, as I do,
of course, but needs must sometimes,
needs must occasionally.
So yeah, I'm thrilled as
a service that you offer.
Okay, the other thing that you do really
well is you've got this sort of back end
clinical support structure that does help
when helping to interpret results.
How did and when did
that sort of developed?
Was that sort of something that was sort
of introduced straight off the bat or has
that something you've introduced over the
years to sort of help?
Well, I suppose the practitioners you
work with in the odd sort of direct
institutions, you know, you can help them
to understand the labs that they're
trying to run and interpret.
Yeah, I mean, I think it evolved.
It was always there from the beginning,
but on a very small scale.
UCAS 15189 accreditations
and medical accreditations.
So it gives you it does require you to
have consultant back
up for clinical advice.
We've got three, that's part of the
standard for that accreditation.
So it means that we can give advice, we
can interpret some results.
We can say whether you've got a current
infection or we assume you've got a past
infection based on the results we get.
But also for in-depth things, especially
from microbiology and
some just disease results.
We've got consultant back up that can
talk to our GPs and reassure them or
suggest for the
testing that they may need.
And that's an important part now, as we
discussed earlier, the more and more
people using private pathology labs.
Obviously in hospital, we
have instant access to doctors.
But I think it's something that we are
proud of that we can offer
that service to all our clients.
And it's really important because it
gives them reassurance in cases that they
can pick up the phone
and speak to people.
What we also do is, as I say, we don't
operate a call centre for such, radical
people and people have access to me and
director level at any time, night or day,
to speak to us if they're unsure about
what testing they should be doing,
whether they're unsure about the source.
And I think that's very different.
It makes us unique
really in the vulture world.
And I think that's something that would
be very precious about keeping that we
are a very bespoke tailor
made service for our clients.
And I think we can do that well, probably
because we don't sound to the general
public as well, because we're not
overloading with individual cases.
We can still deal with those individual
cases, but we're doing them through one
forum rather than each individual person.
Yeah, that just speaks volumes again to
the type of service that
you are you're offering.
And I think it does ultimately just
result in better patient outcomes too,
because you have multiple sorts of points
of interpretation on the test.
And then you can sort of come to sort of
a common consensus as to maybe what the
issue is and instead of maybe a
misinterpretation on the physicians part
if they maybe don't understand the
nuances of that specific lab.
So I think that is well, I
know that's really helpful.
In any case,
Cheryl, you've been amazing.
And I know we're
starting to run up on time.
Would you be open to just running through
a few sort of rapid ish fire questions, a
lightning round, as you might say,
they're never that rapid.
But yeah, sort of just a
nice question to end off with.
Yeah, that's fine.
Cool.
Awesome.
Okay.
Test in your opinion that you reckon
everybody should run maybe on
a quarterly to a yearly basis.
Definitely hemoglobin A1c
is to pick up pre-diabetics.
That is a big thing that can actually be
reversed really easily if it's called a
life thyroid function.
I think it's really important to test.
Your general well man, well woman checks.
There are lots of
diseases that can be addressed.
Fairly simply that you might not pick up
and GPs don't do that preventative well
man, well woman check every year.
If you're under a certain age as well,
you know, we've
picked up things actually.
And the lab team when we've wanted to
validate tests or use people as controls
and we've picked up definitely thyroid
issues, autoimmune type diseases.
That is now people have been treated as
giving them a better quality of life.
I think it's really important to test and
really important to trend as well.
So what might be normal for you might
alter slightly but might
still be in that normal range.
Most of those normal ranges are for 90%
of the population, but your normal range
might be slightly different.
Your testosterone might run at a certain
level and that might be
normal for everyone else.
But you know if that drops but still in a
normal range and that affects your
lifestyle or your well being.
So I think it is important to check
annually, six monthly annually for that.
And that's what we do for
our sports clients as well.
You know, we're really
involved in sports medicine.
It's really important for them, these
athletes to have regular testing because
they are pushed to the
extremes of their bodily.
So we do a lot of trending
for our sports clubs as well.
How about trending you mean?
Trend your so we
compare results at the time.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Got you.
And what sort of markers generally
speaking there are you looking at for
sort of professional sports teams?
I assume it's a lot of hormones, a lot of
liver enzymes, a lot of inflammation
markers, obviously keeping an eye on
those metabolic
parameters you spoke on earlier.
Is it just sort of an extension of this
sort of the well man well woman test or
are you looking for something sort of
ultra specific with those tests?
We do that.
I think I think sports medicine actually
has gone down the roof of nutrition and
it's very important to them.
And they obviously have supplements for
certain things they have to be certain
biomarkers have to be high levels in the
lead athletes because their bodies are
under such extreme pressure.
And also they get ill.
They're ill like any of us, you know,
some of these sports players is a lot of
guided fever, those sort of things.
So there's, there's a
lot of testing in sports.
And I think they tailor made their
nutrition as well, depending on the
biomarkers they get, you know, their
vitamin D's are at a certain level, their
ferritin level has to
be at a certain level.
We test copper and zinc, in a lot of
sports players, we test a lot of vitamins
as well, which is really interesting.
So the sports side of
it is very specific.
And on our, we offer a trending platform
as well that with regular blood tests can
actually look at there.
There was also the time which is, which
is interesting, because
it impacts performance.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's impressive.
And I sort of love the fact that you
brought up nutrients, I think that aside
from the sort of the metabolic markers
nutrients are one of the most overlooked
markers or biomarkers that
people should be checking.
Bit of a selfish question, maybe, are you
looking at sort of whole serum nutrients
or do you do red blood cell as well, sort
of across the range?
Yeah, we do both depending on what the
climate, so we could
do a red cell or serum.
Okay, perfect.
Well, that was not a rapid fire question.
Hopefully the next one.
No, that was completely my fault.
I just went off on tangents, sort of,
yeah, get me going and
we'll be here till Christmas.
Okay, next one, and I'll try not to
interrupt too much, but
I'll probably fail miserably.
What's the biggest myth
about private blood testing?
The myth that it's expensive.
I think I think people
think it's not reachable.
And it definitely is and it's got more
that way as I highlighted before we are
not afraid at the nationwide pathology of
bringing test prices down.
If I can bring it in the house and do it
cheaper, I'd much rather do that with a
quicker turnaround, cheaper test, which
makes it accessible to people who
wouldn't think that
they have access to that.
To start with, yeah.
Okay, a follow up on that one.
How can patients save
money on private testing?
I think if they went to
reputable private GPs, I think, Dr.
Google isn't an ideal thing because you
can put lots of things into Google that
bring up very, very expensive tests.
Whereas if they go to somebody, not
necessarily a private GP, but that
somebody who's experienced in nutrition
or physios or some people who
are really interested in that.
I think then they can direct them to
testing that is relevant
and not overly expensive.
Obviously, some of these tests that
appear in the papers every Sunday are
actually trying to test and they don't
hit some university in America and
they're actually not available.
But I think there's a lot of people out
there that can direct people to cost
effective private testing.
Yeah, I think there's definitely an
element of Dunning-Kruger, that cognitive
bias where people with maybe a low
competence in a specific area tend to
overestimate their ability
or knowledge in that domain.
And then they get onto Google and then
all of a sudden they go wild on a DTC
platform and rake up a 3,000 quid bill
when in reality all they need to do is
check a few simple markers.
Yeah, those are
definitely sage words of advice.
And I think as well what is relevant is
sometimes people want a lot of testing
and if they go through some of our
clients, if they send that to us,
individual testing, you have to have an
individual price for a test.
But if you're doing a big group of
biomarkers, we can offer different
profiles and more cost effective profiles
and we can actually group those together.
And we have actually launched for a lot
of our clients, some tired all the time
profiles and some
well-man, some well-woman.
That if you go on a platform and request
each of those tests individually, it
becomes hundreds of pounds when actually
we can make a much more cost effective
way of doing some set profiles.
So that's how we like to work.
We like to be able to offer people the
best price for the most comprehensive
testing that we can
with the quickest way.
That sort of economy of scale thing sort
of starts ranking up in
your favour as the consumer.
Okay, next one.
What do you find is the biggest trend in
private healthcare at the moment?
To say I think
hormone testing is very big.
I think testosterone
will be the next big market.
We are obviously women's menopause
clinics are very well-known now.
They're very publicised.
People know about them.
I think there is a myth behind men saying
they have a problem.
And I think generally as a lab, we have
seen men to testosterone results drop
dramatically over the last few years.
And I think really that is, you know, we
can get rid of the kudos of men having
low testosterone and make men talk about
it more or more symptoms.
And I definitely think that's something
we should be testing.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I was going to I
would have said longevity.
I think that's possibly the next
burgeoning market as well.
I think a lot of people are starting to
become very sort of aware of their
mortality and that there's
something you can do about it.
And obviously, there are a lot of markers
associated, quote unquote, with one's
longevity that can be where this data
that can be extrapolated.
And there's data that can be
extrapolated from those tests.
But no, I mean, that's an
interesting take for sure.
And I suppose the last question of the
day, where do you think the private
health care system is headed in the UK?
I think more and more people use private
health care, one because
the NHS is overstretched.
And also, there are lots of new tests and
new things we're finding out.
We're learning.
There's a lot in cancer care and tests we
can do that prevent it or recognizing
cancer before it
actually becomes symptomatic.
And I think the private market is in that
field at the moment.
But also, I just think, as you say,
people are looking at longevity and are
more aware of the health.
And I definitely think that middle age,
or you can, the younger person wants to
know if there's anything they can do and
whether losing weight affects whether you
become too diabetic in the future.
And I think none of us want to sit at
home and not do anything.
We're not 60 now.
We'll sit in a chair and
never go out or do anything.
We're all fit and active.
We all want to carry on
anything forever, really.
So the more we can do it, the more
accessible private health
care is, the better for us all.
And it will help the NHS in the long term
that we're not sat in hospital with
similar problems that we perhaps could
have solved before bed.
Yeah, it's all about
prevention at the end of the day.
Cheryl, you've been a
star and a treasure.
Where is the best place to point people?
Should they want to learn more about the
work you do nationwide and where can they
maybe connect with you online?
What's your preferred social platform?
All that good stuff.
I think LinkedIn is
our most today platform.
We've got a really good page on there.
We put new things all the time.
New tests we're doing.
We're bringing in house.
Our turnaround time.
Our website is being
updated at the moment.
They can go to our website and they can
just call us anytime.
We're open six days a week till 10 in the
evening from half seven in the morning.
And our team are on hand to answer any
questions or help anybody with any
questions that they want to ask.
Perfect.
And that website, you're all being
nationwide pathology.ca.uk.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
Perfect.
Awesome.
Well, thank you very much for your time.
This has been an amazing conversation.
And hopefully we can do another one at
some point in the future.
Okay.
Thank you, Rob.