Welcome to Transit Unplugged, now in our seventh season.

I'm your host and producer, Paul Comfort.

Today I'm talking with Adam Hill, editor in chief of London

based ITS International Magazine.

Adam and I discuss how great high speed rail is, and we compare notes on

why it's so difficult to build, both there in England and here in the U.

S.

A big challenge in public transit worldwide is getting people out of their

personal cars and onto trains and buses.

Adam and I talk about that and how tools like congestion charging and low

emission zones can help or hinder that.

Adam talks about how London's new Ultra Low Emission Zone, or ULEZ, It's

supposed to encourage taking transit, but there are a myriad of challenges to

implementing it, including some political.

It's a great lesson for us here in America and beyond in encouraging

people to change their commuting habits.

Join us for this fascinating discussion with one of the world's leading

transportation experts, Adam Hill.

And make sure you stay tuned for Mike's Minute after my interview with Adam.

Yeah.

Very good.

You're at your nation's capital and I'm near ours near here in Washington, D.

C.

Adam, great to, uh, great to have you on the podcast, my friend.

Thank you, Paul.

Thank you very much for inviting me.

It's a great honor.

Well, uh, you're welcome.

You are, uh, a self described transit nerd and of course, editor

of ITS International Magazine.

tell me about a little bit about your organization and yourself.

Sure, well, ITS International is the leading platform

for advanced technology for traffic management and urban mobility.

We have print and digital products, so the print magazine comes out six times a year.

We have digital platforms, social media and so on.

Something like 20, 000 readers and we have a fortnightly e newsletter which goes

to 38, 000 transport, uh, professionals.

And around half our, we're based in the UK, but half our, uh,

readership is in, uh, North America.

And for those of us in North America, what's a fortnight?

I'm so sorry it's every two weeks.

I think a lot of people know that but it's actually not very common.

I've actually been interacting quite a bit with some Brits lately.

Um, my new book, uh, The Future of Public Transportation, or The New

Future of Public Transportation, will be coming out in 2024, published by

SAE, Society of Automotive Engineers, and just last week I was in Austin,

Texas, and guess who I ran into?

Tell me.

Andy Byford.

Fantastic.

Commissioner of transportation.

He was there.

At a conference I was speaking at, he and I were both speaking, and we got

together afterward for drinks and, uh, I'm very excited about the work he's

doing, and a topic that you and I are going to talk about, which is bringing

high speed rail to the United States.

It seems like Europe and Asia have figured it out, but we're still,

you know, Uh, trying to get there.

Well, it's kind of you to say that Europe's figuring it

out, because, um, in the UK at the moment, we are struggling a

little with, uh, high speed rail.

there's a major project, HS2, which has hit the buffers, is

that, is that perhaps fair to say?

Um...

It was originally designed to run from London to Birmingham, which is about

120 miles north, something like that, then to run on to two other great

northern cities, Manchester and Leeds.

Well, the northern bit, the bit after Birmingham, has really run into

difficulty, and in fact the Prime Minister this afternoon, is in Manchester UK,

With Mayor Andy?

Yes, with Mayor Andy, and he's talking about whether he won't be

drawn on whether or not the high speed 2 line will eventually go to Manchester.

And I guess if you're actually in Manchester, you probably don't want

to give any bad news to people there.

today, but we'll see.

Um, yeah, I just

read that.

That's very interesting.

It's billions of dollars they've already spent on it, uh, and getting it planned.

Is that right in engineering?

That's absolutely right.

And I mean, it's an extraordinary infrastructure project.

I mean, it's very ambitious, but I think, um, there's quite a lot of consensus here

that it would have made more sense to have started the work in the north of England,

where connectivity between cities and towns is perhaps not as good as it is,

uh, Within the southeast of England and around London, which is very well served,

and the London to Birmingham route, for example, that's very quick already.

That's, that's, that's a very, very convenient line.

So the idea of making that quicker didn't necessarily make that much sense.

But Northern Connectivity does make sense in England, and yet that is the bit

that has been gradually sacrificed, cut back bit by bit over the last few years.

and there may be further cuts to it as well.

Not only that Paul, the, uh, the line when it does come to London at the moment is

not going to go to the centre of London.

It's going to go to a place called Old Oak Common, which

is on the outskirts of London.

I've lived in London 30 years I've never heard of, Old Oak Common,

neither has anyone else I've talked to.

And it's just, you do wonder sometimes these, uh, great high-speed

rail, rail is a fantastic means of creating connectivity, economic

growth, et cetera, et cetera.

We all get that, but you do have to get it right.

And I think what's happening with HS two at the moment in the uk,

well in England, I should say.

Yeah.

Rather than the uk.

Shows that these big ticket, multi billion dollar, uh, projects, they

are hard, really hard to get right, although I have to say, I think we're

making a spectacular meal of it.

There's difficult and then there's really difficult.

So, it's, but yeah, um, you're absolutely right.

I'm fascinated by the idea of high speed, speed rail in the US as well.

Um, 20 odd years ago, I took a train from, um, LA to San Francisco,

although of course I didn't take a train from LA to San Francisco because

it doesn't go to San Francisco.

Um, I, you may be able to help me with where it stops, but it stops

near San Francisco, then I had to get someone to pick me up and get a ride.

You know...

America just seems to me to be absolutely crying out for high speed rail.

It would be the most fantastic innovation and, um, great that

you've got the Transit Daddy there to sort of, that's right, help you

out.

Train Daddy's here.

We, um, it's funny, the story you told about that, uh, project in England reminds

me of what's happening here in the US.

You're probably aware, but Uh, the effort that is furthest along is the

California High Speed Rail Project.

Yeah, so in California, like you said, in England, it's very interesting.

Another long term high speed rail project that has been whittled back

little by little so that it's kind of going what critics would say are

from, you know, somewhere no one really wants to go to or come from.

To the same on the other end.

I mean, there are cities, there are people there, but they're not

like LA, San Francisco, big places like that, big trip generators.

Unlike what's happening in Florida here, where a private company is moving

ahead, and it's not high speed in a traditional sense, it's not over 200

miles per hour, but it's higher speed.

Uh, and this is a company called Brightline Trains, uh, and they have,

uh, had a train going from Miami to West Palm Beach, and they just recently opened

up a station in Orlando at the airport.

Great location, uh, so that you can connect between the two, and it's

this intercity transportation, Adam, that is where you've got distances

that are too short to really fly.

But too long to drive, right?

Sure.

So anyway, very interesting.

And now they're trying to start one, uh, between LA and Las Vegas,

which would be a great, uh, trip generator because a lot of people go

that way and they have to fly now.

It's too far.

It's, you know, it's just over, I think I did it a few years ago.

I think it's like three and a half, four hours if you're

going very fast, which I was.

But it's so interesting because I was in Detroit just a few

years ago, and when the, that beautiful, um, mainline station, uh, there, was

still a little bit in rack and ruin, and now having seen the pictures, it's

just, it's stunning, the redevelopment that's gone on, uh, around that area, but

again, just, you, I was walking around just thinking, I can't believe that

this extraordinary sort of cathedral to public transport, as was, is no longer

useful, and so I get, you know, I Things change, but some things do stay the same.

And rail links are such a fantastic, well, A, it's a fantastic way to travel.

It really is just one of the great ways to get around.

Um, but B, it's efficient.

It's, it can be cost effective.

It can be, uh, time effective.

And I just wonder why there isn't maybe the passion, um, where that's gone.

And again, I understand the, you know, the development of the automobile and the

development of relatively cheap flights.

Can it come back?

You know the market backwards, Paul.

Will we get to a point where high speed rail in the U.

S.

And that is passionately championed by policymakers, etc.

So it's the, you know, a lot of it's political, right?

Because the politicians are the ones that appropriate the funds.

And when you have a pendulum in politics in America, where we go from Republican

to Democrat, parties back and forth, there's sometimes less enthusiasm, or

depending on where it's at, there's less enthusiasm sometimes and it stalls.

But also...

You know, that's not the only issue, Adam, uh, when I was CEO of the MTA

in Baltimore, when I got there in 2015, there was a study underway.

To look at high speed rail between Washington, D.

C.

and Baltimore, and they said, we can get this down to a 15 minute trip, which

is very exciting for people, because a lot of people make that trip every day.

Tens of thousands of people that drive their cars, and it takes an hour

to two hours, depending on traffic.

If you could get that down to 15 minutes, you'd have...

a built in ridership.

So they were studying when I got there.

We got, I think a 20 some million dollar grant from the federal government.

We were looking at Japanese maglev technology, our governor and my

boss, the secretary of transportation actually went to Japan to take a

look at it up close and personal.

And they came back very enthused about it.

So we're in the end of 2023.

Now guess what's happening with it.

They're still studying it.

So, so, uh, you know, I know there's a lot of things that have to be

looked at, but gee whiz, you know, can't we do this a little faster?

You see, I don't know whether it's a cry, because it just,

it seems, um, it is extraordinary.

I mean, we, we've had some success recently in, um, the southeast of

England with a thing called, it was called Crossrail, it's been

reborn as the Elizabeth Line.

Oh yeah,

I love that.

I know you've been on it.

I know a lot of people have done some great travelogues and so on from there.

And it's the most fantastic line.

It runs from east of London to west of London through the centre, stopping

at mainly a lot of new stations, but incorporating some of the old underground

tube stations and so on that were there.

And it's extraordinary getting on it the first time.

It really was like running after walking.

It was just a wonderful experience.

Um, and it still is.

I mean, a year on, my enthusiasm is undimmed.

But one thing about, something like that, and the reason the Elizabeth

line works so well as a user, as a consumer, As a rider is its frequency.

It not only takes you places you want to go, but it does

it at very regular intervals.

It's rare that you're waiting more than 10 minutes to get a train.

now what happened?

My commute to the office, I, I live in North London, but I come to our office,

which a couple of times a week, which is where I am now, which is sort of

to the south, uh, southeast of London.

I'm going right round.

The Elizabeth line stops about three stops away from my office.

The problem then is I've got to change to just to go 10 minutes on another

line, but it doesn't run very frequently.

I can't time it right leaving from home.

Um, so it's just not worth using in many ways because the

connection just isn't there.

Uh, for various reasons, when I leave the office to go home, I can time it.

It's fine.

So it works very well.

But it was just one of those little indications of how it's wonderful to

have these new infrastructure projects.

And I'm really not complaining.

I sound like, as we would say in England, a whinger.

I'm not complaining.

But it's sometimes if things don't quite match up, it can be frustrating

and very frustrating for users.

I think we're, we're passionate advocates of getting people onto public transport,

but I do understand sometimes if you're not so passionate and your car is a

very convenient option as it is for so many people everywhere in the world.

yeah, you, you do need a bit more persuasion to get on and you need

it to be as simple as possible from everything, from the connectivity, the

frequency, also the payment, of course, you know, that has to be simple too.

So I've got sympathy with people who are more reluctant,

um, public transport users.

Paul, we've just got to bring them on board.

We've just got to, uh, we've just got to keep spreading the word.

I'm talking too much, but can I just say the way that you bring in, um,

I really like the way that you have brought in travelogue and cuisine into

your talking about public transit.

I think it's a great way.

Not at all.

It's a great way of just drawing people in.

And maybe getting people who didn't know they were interested in public transit

interested, uh, because who wouldn't be?

You've got Paella or, uh, you know, some great shots of Lisbon

or wherever, wherever you are.

So, yeah, no, so that, but that's the thing.

It's getting people interested in something that, um, you know, is.

When it's done right, mass transit is just this extraordinary way of moving

people around, uh, great distances, or even quite small distances, but

very effectively, very efficiently.

It's frustrating.

I do understand people's frustration when it's, their experience is

not as good as it should be.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

And thank you for that compliment for our TV show, Transit Unplugged TV, where each

month we go to a different city and we dive into their public transportation, but

we also show you fun places you can go.

Riding the public transportation.

Again, the idea is to kind of expand upon the nuts and bolts of what

it takes to run a transit system.

Like you talked about the frequency, maybe the technology,

um, and the headways, et cetera.

And to say, Hey, you know what?

Like I just did in Austin, Texas.

So I was there with Dottie, who is the CEO of the transit system, Dottie Watkins.

And we're at a big, at their main major bus hub.

And we filmed me saying to her, Hey, I've heard about this place, Barton Springs,

which is a big tourist attraction.

People go and swim there.

It's a cold water

. It comes out of a spring.

It's like 68 degrees.

I want to jump in during the show, but we didn't have time.

We were, we were scheduled for another event right after, but so we say,

well, and I say to her as we do on every episode, but how do I get there?

And then she'll say how to get there is you get on the line 30, which comes

right from here every 15 minutes, and it'll take you directly and drop you

off right in front of Barton Springs.

So the thought is, you know, just what you said, showing the fun part,

the food, the music, the culture, uh, and all of them are accessible.

And without Mobility.

So many people would not have access to all of that, but for

those that do, and our taxpayers, we need to show them the fun side.

They may not ride public transit.

They may say, I don't want to spend my taxpayer subsidy

dollars to subsidize people.

They should charge them full freight.

Well, you know what?

It also helps these businesses stay.

Uh, Alive, because it brings people to them.

It provides employees.

So for instance, you know, when I used to run the light rail system in Baltimore,

one of the lines goes right to the airport, and it's not just for passengers.

Uh, Ricky, who is the CEO there, said, Paul, you know, you're bringing in most

of our employees, ride the light rail from Baltimore out to, so there's a

lot to public transportation that the casual observer may not see, right?

no, absolutely.

But I think it's interesting.

The fun stuff is great.

And actually, I like, I really like that idea of showing people where

they can go on public transit.

But in the main, people aren't necessarily going to fun places, they're going to

work, they're going to school, wherever.

And getting people out of their cars and onto mass transit, I mean, it's just such

a, it's such a difficult play, I think, particularly in Many parts of the States

and certainly in many parts of the UK.

There's, you know, I live in London, so public transport is fantastic.

You know, you can get by without a car or driving relatively infrequently.

You go much further out, it's more difficult.

So, um, I think as well, we, and by which actually I mean me, have

to beware against, simply because we have such a great experience in

public transport, to realize that for other people, It's more of a hassle.

It's more difficult.

Um, and it's not as attractive an option.

So what do we do about that?

I think, um,

Well, in, in some places, another catalyst for getting

on public transit is congestion, right?

In the downtowns of big cities like New York here in the U.

S.

or in London there, or in Singapore, where I was at recently with Jeremy Yap.

So the mayor there of London is in charge of transport for London directly.

It's a department that reports to him and it's not just over

transit, it's over roadways.

Traffic signals and all that.

And, uh, they've had congestion charging there for quite a while, which I

think people understand, but there's something new, uh, called, called an

ultra low emission zone, which the mayor is putting into place there, or ULEZ.

Tell us about that and what's happening.

Well, ULEZ is, as you suggested, it is distinct from the

congestion charge zone, which came first.

ULEZ the ultra low emission zone, um, is actually in its initial stages, which came

into force a couple of years ago, three, three, four years ago, um, is a zone

into which if your car is not compliant or your van or your truck or whatever.

If it's not compliant with the Ultra Low Emission Zone regulations, so, you

know, it has to emit a certain level of pollution, um, you have to pay 12.

50 a day if you want to drive your vehicle into the zone.

What that means is, in effect, for most of central London, and indeed

even where I live, which is sort of the inner suburbs of London, for the

last, uh, few years, Your car, your vehicle has had to be compliant.

So in the main, it means if you have a diesel powered vehicle, most of

the older ones are not compliant.

A lot of petrol car, but a lot of petrol cars are compliant.

For example, my, uh, car at the moment is about 18 years old.

It's a petrol car.

It's compliant with ULEZ so it's not the case that you have to

buy a new car to avoid paying 12.

50 a day.

Anyway, just in the last couple of months, we've had the great ULEZ extension,

which means that now ULEZ doesn't just cover the inner part of London and the

inner suburbs, it covers everything right out to the M25 motorway, which is the

orbital highway that goes around London.

Can we call that a beltway here?

A beltway around the city?

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

Um, so this has been a massive political hot potato because, um, and

politics always comes to the, into these things as, as you well know.

Um, there's been huge opposition to the idea of, uh, pushing the ULEZ

zone out to cover the whole of London.

So a lot of misinformation about it, a lot of legitimate concerns as well.

there will be somewhat people who do have to change their vehicles because otherwise

they will be eligible to pay the 12.

50 a day, which is a lot of money.

Um, but equally, uh, TfL, Transport for London, estimates something

like 9 out of 10 existing cars will already be ULEZ compliant.

So, It is, uh, a worry which is perhaps out of scale with the actual problem.

That said, it's a very emotive thing.

People feeling they're not, they're not able to drive their car

where they want, when they want.

and it's definitely, that has definitely affected current political, uh, debate

and discourse in the UK because, uh, we had a, uh, what's called a by

election, which is where a sitting member of parliament, in this case

Boris Johnson, who used to be the prime minister, leaves their constituency.

They say, I don't want to be an MP anymore, so you have to vote a new one

in, but it doesn't come, uh, after, you know, in a four year election cycle.

It comes in the right in the middle of a parliament.

Um, and quite often the Opposition party will win these elections because they

can often be protest votes and so on.

It was widely assumed that the Labour party, the opposition party, would

win the constituency called Uxbridge.

In effect, by about 500 votes, Boris Johnson's party won.

Now this was something of a surprise and part of the reason for it was

that, um, a, an anti ULEZ expansion mobilization went on Uxbridge falls

into the new expanded, uh, ULEZ zone.

So there was, um, that was able to be, uh, weaponized, if you like, as

a political issue, despite the fact it wasn't necessarily that germane.

But nonetheless, it was very, very powerful.

Um, and I think as a result, political parties in the UK, um, have looked

at that and said, hang on, maybe this, uh, and maybe this ULEZ thing,

maybe people don't want to be told that they can't drive their car.

Maybe they don't like, uh, the expansion.

Um, and this has fed into a few sort of big announcements that

we've had here over the last month.

Yes,

I just saw that.

Yeah.

Your prime minister made an announcement.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So we've revised some net zero targets.

We've revised some green targets.

And we're now, you know, the prime minister has been talking about

the fact there's a, in inverted commas, a war on motorists.

And this is very, very attractive to a lot of people because loads

of people drive cars and they are.

I think they suddenly think, wow we're under attack, you know, I don't think

the are this is politicizing, but it, and it might be quite smart politicizing,

but it's, um, it's, I think, a good illustration of the way that, um, if

you seek to impose any restriction on the way we move around our, as we

see it, our individual freedom, that does come fraught with political risk.

I think this is also why the, the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,

has actually been quite bold.

And again, whether you agree with him or not, it is undoubtedly bold

to extend the ULEZ zone, because it hasn't been fantastically popular.

You know, so many things wrapped in there.

And I think another thing, and Paul, sorry, I am, I am going on.

So please, this is interesting though.

Yeah.

But if, uh, one of the really interesting things, as we were saying before, how

do we get people out of their cars?

How do we get them to, um, use public transit?

Well, We can get them out of the cars by penalising them by saying, you know,

if your car doesn't comply with these emissions standards, you need to pay 12.

50 a day.

And that will be a natural way of pushing people onto public transport.

But the public transport has to exist.

The connectivity has to be there for those people.

Otherwise, they will either get resentful, not not unreasonably, if they feel

they're, um, uh, you know, um, being discriminated against in some way, um, or

I guess they just won't they won't comply.

And I think part of the reason the ULEZ expansion, perhaps, will, uh,

succeed, and will, I think, win people over, is that there is a pledge by the

Mayor of London to use the money that is taken from it to invest in public

transit around London, so in the outer suburbs, where the, the connectivity is

perhaps not as good, certainly not as good as it is in the centre of London.

So that's a really interesting idea.

That's an interesting link, a direct link between you get out of your car and we

are going to invest in public transport.

And I think that's got to be the way forward.

There's no point just penalising people.

There has to be some, um, they've got to see some gain.

so we'll see.

It's very, very early days.

The expansion has only been in the last year or so.

Uh, the Mayor of London is up for re election, uh, next year.

We also have a general election in the UK next year.

We'll see.

There's a lot of politics, but I think I do guarantee that motorists are going to

be very much at the center of politics in the UK for the next year, 18 months,

because they're a powerful constituency.

Most of us are motorists.

as well as being other things.

We're also cyclists, we're pedestrians, we're public transport, we're parents.

So, you know, arguments around, better air quality.

Improved road safety.

They're also very powerful as well.

They're powerful arguments.

People get them.

So there's a lot of different factors at play, I think, certainly here.

And, you know, this is a microcosm, obviously, of what's

going on in many other countries.

I'm very interested to see how the New York City congestion zone pans out.

I'm fascinated by the idea of the motorists in the capital of the world

being told where they can drive.

How's, I mean, what do you think?

How's that going to go down?

Well, it's, it's, um, it's moving forward

in New York City as we speak.

It was passed and adopted and allowed, uh, and, uh, my understanding is,

you know, they're putting up cameras, et cetera, uh, but it is have, you

know, the people in New Jersey are suing New York because a lot of them

are going to have to pay going in.

So, you know, In the end, like most things here in the U.

S., it'll probably be decided by the courts.

So, uh, but thank you, Adam.

This has been a fascinating look at comparison and contrast, I think,

between what's happening in public transportation here in the U.

S.

and there in, in, uh, what we call Great Britain, which I know

is, uh, now the United Kingdom.

But really, we talked a lot about what's happening in England,

uh, which is the basis of it.

And, uh, so.

Thank you for this great talk, and if people want to read more about

this type of things, they of course can subscribe to your magazine, ITS

International, and we'll have information on the show notes about how to do that.

Thank you again, Adam.

Thank you, Paul.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

Hi, this is Mike Bismeyer and this is Mike's Minute

where we talk about leadership, mentorship and kindness with the hopes

it'll inspire you to pay it forward.

It was great today to hear Paul and Adam talk about the fun stuff of transit as I'm

excited to be attending the Canadian Urban Transit Association's fall conference

and trade show this week, participating on a leadership panel with Paul as

well as speaking to the Young Leaders Summit about the power of mentorship

and it is always fun to be here.

It's a perfect parlay for all the subjects I talk about when we cover

leadership, mentorship, and kindness.

I wanted to talk a bit about the Young Leaders Summit and those young leaders

that we are surrounded with at the agencies and companies we represent.

It's always inspiring to see the passion and excitement that many

new folks or early career folks have, the ideas they bring, and the

ambition they have to be changemakers.

It also reiterates the importance to share and pass on knowledge,

be willing to help and listen.

Leadership and mentorship can take on many forms, and both

are always two way streets.

But the example I will use in terms of leadership is with

this Young Leaders Summit.

The young leaders that have made up part of the steering committee and

taken the lead on organizing this particular summit for 63 delegates,

building an incredibly action packed few days of transit related sessions,

learnings, and team building exercises.

The idea is, of course, to encourage the future generation of leaders

and to build excitement for transit in general and to have folks

consider transit as a career path.

It's always my honour to be involved in these summits and have an opportunity

to address the young leader delegates about the values of mentorship and

networking, and I truly believe that peer to peer relationships, learning

and sharing in our industry fall right into that fun stuff category.

As I sign off, I'm headed to ride the new Valley Line Southeast Light Rail that

opened just last week here in the host city of Edmonton and have some more fun.

Thanks for listening.

Kindness is cool.

Hi.

This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Thank you for listening to today's show.

And a special thanks to our guest Adam Hill Editor in Chief

of ITS International Magazine.

And coming up next week on the show, Paul's talking with Scott Smith,

former CEO of Valley Metro in Arizona.

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