Host: Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for
social influence interpersonal dynamics and social engineering.
He is the host of one of the most popular podcasts in the
world. I'm excited to introduce him to you guys. So Jordan,
thanks for being here.
Jordan Harbinger: Hey, thanks for having me on. And I
appreciate it.
Host: Yeah. So what do you think are some of the key differences
between ordinary guys and extraordinary men? Or how do you
sort of draw that line?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely an interesting
sort of distinction, right? Because there's so many guys out
there that don't really know what either of those things
mean, right. So you've got these weird camps and stuff we can get
into later, where, you know, guys think they're supposed to
be one way, and they're not the other and we're not kids
anymore, we can't get away with the same type of stuff, we can't
ditch responsibility, you know, people aren't really going to
take the same level of forgiveness to the way that we
carry ourselves, or the, you know, can't be as selfish, there
was just a lot of things that went into becoming more of a
mature guy. And I also noticed that especially some of the guys
that I just know, personally that I grew up with, they were
just really not, not really interested in addressing that
whole thing. So that I still have people that I grew up with
were like, living with their parents, or they're going to
work every day, because they do have a job. But maybe they're
like, oh, you know, this isn't what I'm really going to do
later on, I'm going to do XYZ, and it's just like all this
ridiculous, kind of childish stuff, they don't want to make
the transition. And I'm not totally blaming laziness or
society or anything like that, I think that just, there's not a
clear path anymore, which is both good and bad. You know,
it's good, because now we don't have to work a nine to five, and
we don't have to grow up, get married and have kids, if you
don't want to, you don't even have to live in the same country
you grew up in, and you can work from home and all this cool
stuff. But on the other hand, there's no real clear
transition, you know, back in the 60s, and earlier and, and,
to a lesser extent, even in the 70s, and 80s, it was kind of
like, this is what kids do. Okay, you're 18, get a job, you
know, graduated from high school, get a job, figure the
rest out on your own. And that worked for a lot of people
because they were thrown into the fryer. And my dad was one of
those guys were graduated from high school. And at that point
in Detroit, everybody was going getting a job in the auto
industry. And that was what you did. And my dad went, I'm gonna
go to college, because a lot of the bosses are, you know,
college educated guys, and I want to be one of them. So you
went to college, paid his own way, I helped his brothers and
sisters go to college. And now it's like, if you don't go to
college, and there was sort of a rite of passage in the in before
our time that now no longer exists. So now it's like, do I
go to college? Do I not go to college? Do I get a job? Do I
start a business, our ideas of what makes a man are completely
skewed and screwed up? And there's no real good role models
to look at to figure out what to do? You can look at your own
parents. But if they're screwed up, you're kind of out of luck.
What are you going to do look at the NBA. I mean, you don't have
a whole lot of options.
Host: What do you think are some of like the misconceptions that
guys have about what it takes to be a man?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's tons of stuff like that out
there. Because since this vacuum has happened, there's this whole
camp of guys that got started with like, maybe a few of these
modern men's movements, and some of them are really unhealthy.
Like there's this whole Pickup Artists movement, right? Where
guys, like, here's how you get chicks. Because somewhere along
the line, we started measuring ourselves by that. And so guys
went out and tried to master that which in a weird, self,
destructive, misogynistic way. There's these other camps that
turned into like, No, we have to be really, really respectful.
And we got to make sure everybody around us feel safe
and loved, which is great. Don't get me wrong. And the idea is
great, but the execution is usually something along the
lines of please everyone, but yourself. And eventually people
will love you for that. And then of course, when that doesn't
happen, you get these angry people, pleaser, guys that are
like really resentful of pretty much all of humanity. And then
they turn into the next camp of guys. In fact, I'm almost going
in an evolution here. Then they turn into the next camp of guys,
which are these like, really weird men's rights activists?
Have you ever heard of this? It's called like the men's
rights activist thing. And I'm sure that there's probably some
guys who are gonna yell at you and me about how I'm lumping
everybody together, but I don't care. But these guys, what they
do is they they write things like, oh, you know, 10 rules
for, and I'm not even I'm not even going to quote and I'm
going to loosely paraphrase for your show. Because otherwise,
it's just too offensive. But I read an article that was very
typical of one of these sites. And I read it recently because
someone sent it to me, a female friend of mine, she's like, is
this real? And I was like, sadly, yes. And it was like 10
ways to make sure your relationship goes the way you
want it to. And it's things like isolate her from her family and
friends make sure she knows her opinions don't matter. Like
don't spend any time with her family or her friends unless you
have to, you know, once a year on a holiday you can go to her
house otherwise it's all about you. You know, make sure she
doesn't have a career that it's like misogyny one on one, but
like created in a way that's way too well thought out to be like
a joke. It's clearly like this guy has implemented This stuff
and he's advocating that other people do. And people write
books about it. That stuff is creepy and weird. And when you
say something like that, then you become on their like weirdo
message boards, you become like this target. And there are
people that are like, I know where he lives, we should wait
outside his apartment and kick his ass because that's what,
that's what alpha males do. And then there's other guys that are
like, No, you'll get arrested, just screw up his credit by
doing this. And it's like, Are you kidding me, I have a
different opinion than you. And since you're a quote unquote,
alpha male, you're going to steal my identity, like get a
life, but guys are doing this. And it's a result of having no
idea what real men actually do, what real responsibility looks
like, what real, how you can actually be a strong guy and
show vulnerability and love other people and take care of
your brothers and sisters. And figuratively, or literally, it's
just like, oh, man, I grew up in this weird environment with bad
parents. So an idea of what a man is is like a supervillain
plus a Hollywood guy. You know, it's just weird.
Host: So I want to turn the conversation now a little bit.
You talk about charisma. So you actually think that charisma is
is a learnable skill?
Jordan Harbinger: I don't just think that it's actually been
proven by science. The only people who think charisma and
personal skills are not learnable are people that either
are well behind the curve, which is fine, I can understand that,
but don't really want to put in the work to do it. It would be
like you ever have, do you have any friends that aren't doing so
well financially? And they say, well, it's easy for you because
this oh, well, I can't do that. Because of this. You ever have
any friends like that? Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So the
people who think Oh, charisma, personal skills network, and
that's not something you can learn. I wasn't born with the
gift of gab, the people who say that and quote unquote, truly
believe it are the people who go, oh, man, that looks like a
lot of work. I'd rather not highlight my shortcomings and
simply blame it on whatever genetics the economy,
circumstances beyond my control, you know, they'll force majeure
argument, right? And it's very, very, it's well established that
this is a nurturer not necessarily nature type of
thing. And I know, just from my personal observation, as well as
as well as the science, I know that it is teachable, because
that's what we do. If this was snake oil, we would have been
called out a long time ago, what a lot of people don't really get
their think like, oh, it's all about saying the right thing,
and you got to be quick on your feet. And maybe there's
something to that. But mostly, what it comes down to is a few
parts nonverbal communication, both reading and displaying, and
then the ability and willingness, frankly, to give
pretty much unendingly to others without the expectation of
getting something in return. So we teach a lot of nonverbal
communication skills and I can give you a drill towards the end
of the show that people listening can just try so we
teach a lot of nonverbal communication. In other words,
like looking acting, feeling confident, the the kind of like
fake it till you make it but for real, you know, science based,
nonverbal communication, how you're perceived, how others
perceive you. And of course, when you change your nonverbal
communication, to be more confident, more positive, more
charismatic, people start to treat you differently. And that
creates really good feedback loops where you think, okay, now
maybe I am that person, or how come everybody's being nice to
me today. And you've experienced this as well, I'm sure where
you're having a good day, you're in a good mood, and then
suddenly, other people are treating you really well. And
you're like, Well, today's a really good day, that's not an
accident. It's a result of the way that you're being as well.
It doesn't mean that people won't be snotty and rude to you.
If you're in a good mood. It just means that chances are, if
you're in a great mood, and you're engaging other people all
the time, and they're reading positivity, friendliness,
openness from you, and the way that they do that is
nonverbally, they're probably going to treat you differently
than they are going to treat the guy who looks grumpy, stressed,
and like he's just over it.
Host: How do you go about doing that? Like, how do I start the
journey of becoming confident if I don't feel that way?
Jordan Harbinger: That's a great question. Especially because,
you know, a lot of people go well, what causes this in the
first place, and I don't want to zoom out too far. Because I'm
not a psychologist. I'll just blanket statements a parents
upbringing environment, that can ruin us, just as it can make us.
You know, the kids who were really fun, popular and great
and well adjusted in school, they had a different environment
than the kid who never said anything and had some trouble
going on at home. Right? We all that's like a cliche, it's so
obvious now. Now we look at the way that people are the way that
people behave. And as adults, we carry 99% of the crap we had in
childhood, we can slowly start to outgrow it. And we can slowly
start to become confident, but it doesn't mean all that stuff
goes away. It has to be a manual process. Just like if you're 100
pounds overweight. You don't just gradually Oh, you know what
I just randomly got in shape. No, it's you had to change your
habits, right? You had to change the way you eat. You have to
change the way you exercise. And usually you have to change the
way that you think about yourself. Because if you and I
grew up together, and you were fat when we were kids, and this
is hypothetical, I have no idea whether or not you were fat or
not. I Let's say that you were like 100 pounds overweight, you
were always a fat kid. And we went to college in different
places, and I haven't seen you, and then we have our high school
reunion. And you're thin, right? I know, you've made a change.
And it's dramatic. And everyone that knows, you knows that
you've made a change. Now, if I was always the shy kid, and you
know, all the way through middle school, high school, and then I
go to college, and we have our high school reunion, what would
it take for you to notice that I'm less shy? And how would you
measure that? You wouldn't really, I mean, you might
notice, because maybe I'm a little bit more outgoing than I
was, but you and I were friends. So I wasn't really shy with you.
I was more shy with, you know, women or other strangers, but
you wouldn't really notice that because the way I interact with
you hasn't changed all that much. And there's no gradient
that you can say, Well, Jordan was, you know, he used to be
really shy. And now he's what less shy I mean, those are the
most descriptive terms that you can really give that type of
change. It's another thing, if you look at people who knew me
growing up, and they go, Wow, you're like a totally different
person, because my change is really drastic. So when you look
at somebody who's has a physical change, that's dramatic, you go,
wow, you know, what, you really did something, what was it and
they have a strategy that was backed by science, that looks
like it probably was the reason why they've changed the way that
they appear. If I have science based strategies that change the
way that I behave, there's a 90% chance that most of the people
that I interact with will not even really notice that much.
Because they're wrapped up in their own stuff. Now, someone's
appearance is so basic, that you always notice the difference.
That's why you'll see somebody that you've known for years, and
you'll go, did you get a haircut or something? But you would
never go? Amen. Did you um, did you suddenly talk to three
strangers that you never would have talked to this morning,
you'd never, you know, you never will have that. So it's in part,
its measurement, or lack of ability to measure. And to it
has to be such a dramatic change for most people to notice other
than you, right? Because your first impressions are already
kind of made. That's why it's even more dramatic to notice
that somebody has lost weight, or gained it, versus somebody
who you know, changing their personality, because that image
is already there. If you meet a bunch of new people, after you
make dramatic changes to your personality, they see you in a
completely different way. That's why I go by my middle name now,
which is Jordan, and people who I grew up with are used to
calling me let's say, Eric, right? So people who I'm young
when I was younger, they go man, you you don't look like a
Jordan. I can't call you, Jordan. And people that I meet
now go, oh, man, I can't call you Eric. There's no way I could
call you, Eric. I don't look like a Jordan or not look like
an Eric. That's ridiculous, right? The only thing is their
perception of me their initial one is what's burned into their
brain. And so now the new one doesn't quite jive with what
they imagined me to be. And that's why it's so hard to
notice. If somebody's made dramatic changes. It's not that
it's not science based. It's not that this can't be done. It's
just that we don't have good measurements for it other than
subjective perception.
Host: Yeah. So you mentioned that word perception. Is the
biggest part of perception, the way that we perceive ourselves
first, and then charisma or confidence become sort of the
outward display of the perception of ourselves. Would
you agree with that?
Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, that's brilliant. Yeah. And in
fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. Because the thing
is, you can't be or it's very difficult to be outwardly
charismatic. If you have a lot of trouble perceiving yourself
as somebody who's confident now you can act charismatic, don't
get me wrong. So everyone right now is like no, but that one
guy, right? No, you can act charismatic. Look at a lot of
me, you see these actors that have like these crazy substance
abuse problems and stuff, when they're acting, they're
phenomenal. But they're acting, it's an art, right? You can try
to do that as much as you want. But the whole point of this
exercise is for you to become happier and more fulfilled, and
create better relationships not to make other people think that
you're cool. That's that's the unhealthy stuff that we were
just talking about in the beginning of the show. So we all
probably met those kids, or even adults where you think, man, you
know, this kid's so cool. He's tall. He's athletic. Oh, the
girl was like, Man, I wish I was him. And then you know, you have
that one drunken and like, cool, intimate conversation with the
guy and you find out that he like, hates his parents, and he
feels like he's stupid. And the only thing he has is athletics,
but he's not good enough to get into college. So he's like
really insecure about his future and you're like, holy crap, this
guy has real problems. What I didn't know that. You know, the
whole time. You're wishing you're wishing you're him and
he's thinking what am I going to do after this? Right? He's the
most insecure guy you've ever met. And the reason that you
thought that is because you went well, I'm below him on this
ladder and on this measurement, I'm less and on that other
measurement. I'm last and he's definitely beat got me beat
here, here and here. You know, you this is all a matter of self
perception, just as his shortcomings are also a matter
of self perception.
Host: What is your definition of charm?
Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's really tough. Let people ask me
that all the time. But it really comes down to a lot of different
things. I mean, there's this cutesy definition where it's
like, getting the answer without having to ask the question, you
know, that's all fine and good. But it depends on a lot of such
I know, this is a worst answer ever. But it depends on the
situation, right? You know, if you're looking at at this from
like, the confidence and charisma angle that we've just
been discussing, it's literally to be so confident in yourself
that you're comfortable being authentic, which means you're
comfortable being vulnerable, because here's going back to the
beginning of this conversation, a lot of guys go, Yeah, I'm
confident I could like beat up anybody who disrespects me.
Well, that's not really confidence, right? Because
clearly, you're not going to beat up anyone who disrespects
you, you're tough guy, you're just really hurting and really
insecure. So you act like that, right. And you see these truly
confident guys that you've rarely meet. And they're really
honest about what they're afraid of. And then they're the ones
who are really close with their mothers and fathers and wives
and girlfriends and kids, because they can be vulnerable,
they can come back after a hard day of at work, and they can be
the spaghetti Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever to their kid
and they can, they can take care of the emotional needs of their
family. That type of thing. That's extremely, that takes a
lot of development, right? And it takes a lot of confidence to
be able to go you know what, I'm going to quit this job that I
don't like and start a business. They're confident enough to
admit when they're wrong, they're confident enough to
continue learning through life without having to prove to other
people that they already know everything. So it's more like a
savoir faire type of thing that's evolved into really the
type of savoir faire itself, where it doesn't matter what
other people's perceptions might be. We may teach you to read
those and others we may teach you to display them well to
others. But really, it's about you, you know, it's about how
you feel how comfortable are you in your own skin because there's
nothing more attractive than somebody who's got that nailed.
Host: Mm hmm. Well, I appreciate it, brother. You're doing a good
thing.
Jordan Harbinger: Appreciate it, man. Thank you