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Host: Jordan Harbinger has
always had an affinity for

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social influence interpersonal
dynamics and social engineering.

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He is the host of one of the
most popular podcasts in the

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world. I'm excited to introduce
him to you guys. So Jordan,

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thanks for being here.

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Jordan Harbinger: Hey, thanks
for having me on. And I

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appreciate it.

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Host: Yeah. So what do you think
are some of the key differences

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between ordinary guys and
extraordinary men? Or how do you

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sort of draw that line?

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Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean,
it's definitely an interesting

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sort of distinction, right?
Because there's so many guys out

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there that don't really know
what either of those things

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mean, right. So you've got these
weird camps and stuff we can get

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into later, where, you know,
guys think they're supposed to

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be one way, and they're not the
other and we're not kids

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anymore, we can't get away with
the same type of stuff, we can't

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ditch responsibility, you know,
people aren't really going to

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take the same level of
forgiveness to the way that we

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carry ourselves, or the, you
know, can't be as selfish, there

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was just a lot of things that
went into becoming more of a

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mature guy. And I also noticed
that especially some of the guys

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that I just know, personally
that I grew up with, they were

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just really not, not really
interested in addressing that

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whole thing. So that I still
have people that I grew up with

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were like, living with their
parents, or they're going to

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work every day, because they do
have a job. But maybe they're

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like, oh, you know, this isn't
what I'm really going to do

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later on, I'm going to do XYZ,
and it's just like all this

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ridiculous, kind of childish
stuff, they don't want to make

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the transition. And I'm not
totally blaming laziness or

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society or anything like that, I
think that just, there's not a

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clear path anymore, which is
both good and bad. You know,

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it's good, because now we don't
have to work a nine to five, and

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we don't have to grow up, get
married and have kids, if you

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don't want to, you don't even
have to live in the same country

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you grew up in, and you can work
from home and all this cool

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stuff. But on the other hand,
there's no real clear

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transition, you know, back in
the 60s, and earlier and, and,

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to a lesser extent, even in the
70s, and 80s, it was kind of

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like, this is what kids do.
Okay, you're 18, get a job, you

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know, graduated from high
school, get a job, figure the

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rest out on your own. And that
worked for a lot of people

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because they were thrown into
the fryer. And my dad was one of

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those guys were graduated from
high school. And at that point

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in Detroit, everybody was going
getting a job in the auto

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industry. And that was what you
did. And my dad went, I'm gonna

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go to college, because a lot of
the bosses are, you know,

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college educated guys, and I
want to be one of them. So you

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went to college, paid his own
way, I helped his brothers and

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sisters go to college. And now
it's like, if you don't go to

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college, and there was sort of a
rite of passage in the in before

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our time that now no longer
exists. So now it's like, do I

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go to college? Do I not go to
college? Do I get a job? Do I

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start a business, our ideas of
what makes a man are completely

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skewed and screwed up? And
there's no real good role models

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to look at to figure out what to
do? You can look at your own

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parents. But if they're screwed
up, you're kind of out of luck.

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What are you going to do look at
the NBA. I mean, you don't have

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a whole lot of options.

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Host: What do you think are some
of like the misconceptions that

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guys have about what it takes to
be a man?

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Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's
tons of stuff like that out

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there. Because since this vacuum
has happened, there's this whole

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camp of guys that got started
with like, maybe a few of these

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modern men's movements, and some
of them are really unhealthy.

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Like there's this whole Pickup
Artists movement, right? Where

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guys, like, here's how you get
chicks. Because somewhere along

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the line, we started measuring
ourselves by that. And so guys

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went out and tried to master
that which in a weird, self,

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destructive, misogynistic way.
There's these other camps that

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turned into like, No, we have to
be really, really respectful.

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And we got to make sure
everybody around us feel safe

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and loved, which is great. Don't
get me wrong. And the idea is

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great, but the execution is
usually something along the

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lines of please everyone, but
yourself. And eventually people

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will love you for that. And then
of course, when that doesn't

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happen, you get these angry
people, pleaser, guys that are

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like really resentful of pretty
much all of humanity. And then

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they turn into the next camp of
guys. In fact, I'm almost going

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in an evolution here. Then they
turn into the next camp of guys,

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which are these like, really
weird men's rights activists?

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Have you ever heard of this?
It's called like the men's

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rights activist thing. And I'm
sure that there's probably some

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guys who are gonna yell at you
and me about how I'm lumping

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everybody together, but I don't
care. But these guys, what they

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do is they they write things
like, oh, you know, 10 rules

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for, and I'm not even I'm not
even going to quote and I'm

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going to loosely paraphrase for
your show. Because otherwise,

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it's just too offensive. But I
read an article that was very

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typical of one of these sites.
And I read it recently because

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someone sent it to me, a female
friend of mine, she's like, is

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this real? And I was like,
sadly, yes. And it was like 10

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ways to make sure your
relationship goes the way you

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want it to. And it's things like
isolate her from her family and

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friends make sure she knows her
opinions don't matter. Like

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don't spend any time with her
family or her friends unless you

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have to, you know, once a year
on a holiday you can go to her

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house otherwise it's all about
you. You know, make sure she

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doesn't have a career that it's
like misogyny one on one, but

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like created in a way that's way
too well thought out to be like

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a joke. It's clearly like this
guy has implemented This stuff

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and he's advocating that other
people do. And people write

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books about it. That stuff is
creepy and weird. And when you

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say something like that, then
you become on their like weirdo

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message boards, you become like
this target. And there are

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people that are like, I know
where he lives, we should wait

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outside his apartment and kick
his ass because that's what,

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that's what alpha males do. And
then there's other guys that are

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like, No, you'll get arrested,
just screw up his credit by

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doing this. And it's like, Are
you kidding me, I have a

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different opinion than you. And
since you're a quote unquote,

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alpha male, you're going to
steal my identity, like get a

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life, but guys are doing this.
And it's a result of having no

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idea what real men actually do,
what real responsibility looks

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like, what real, how you can
actually be a strong guy and

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show vulnerability and love
other people and take care of

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your brothers and sisters. And
figuratively, or literally, it's

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just like, oh, man, I grew up in
this weird environment with bad

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parents. So an idea of what a
man is is like a supervillain

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plus a Hollywood guy. You know,
it's just weird.

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Host: So I want to turn the
conversation now a little bit.

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You talk about charisma. So you
actually think that charisma is

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is a learnable skill?

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Jordan Harbinger: I don't just
think that it's actually been

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proven by science. The only
people who think charisma and

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personal skills are not
learnable are people that either

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are well behind the curve, which
is fine, I can understand that,

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but don't really want to put in
the work to do it. It would be

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like you ever have, do you have
any friends that aren't doing so

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well financially? And they say,
well, it's easy for you because

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this oh, well, I can't do that.
Because of this. You ever have

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any friends like that? Sure.
Yeah, of course. Yeah. So the

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people who think Oh, charisma,
personal skills network, and

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that's not something you can
learn. I wasn't born with the

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gift of gab, the people who say
that and quote unquote, truly

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believe it are the people who
go, oh, man, that looks like a

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lot of work. I'd rather not
highlight my shortcomings and

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simply blame it on whatever
genetics the economy,

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circumstances beyond my control,
you know, they'll force majeure

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argument, right? And it's very,
very, it's well established that

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this is a nurturer not
necessarily nature type of

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thing. And I know, just from my
personal observation, as well as

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as well as the science, I know
that it is teachable, because

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that's what we do. If this was
snake oil, we would have been

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called out a long time ago, what
a lot of people don't really get

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their think like, oh, it's all
about saying the right thing,

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and you got to be quick on your
feet. And maybe there's

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something to that. But mostly,
what it comes down to is a few

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parts nonverbal communication,
both reading and displaying, and

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then the ability and
willingness, frankly, to give

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pretty much unendingly to others
without the expectation of

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getting something in return. So
we teach a lot of nonverbal

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communication skills and I can
give you a drill towards the end

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of the show that people
listening can just try so we

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teach a lot of nonverbal
communication. In other words,

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like looking acting, feeling
confident, the the kind of like

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fake it till you make it but for
real, you know, science based,

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nonverbal communication, how
you're perceived, how others

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perceive you. And of course,
when you change your nonverbal

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communication, to be more
confident, more positive, more

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charismatic, people start to
treat you differently. And that

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creates really good feedback
loops where you think, okay, now

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maybe I am that person, or how
come everybody's being nice to

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me today. And you've experienced
this as well, I'm sure where

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you're having a good day, you're
in a good mood, and then

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suddenly, other people are
treating you really well. And

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you're like, Well, today's a
really good day, that's not an

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accident. It's a result of the
way that you're being as well.

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It doesn't mean that people
won't be snotty and rude to you.

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If you're in a good mood. It
just means that chances are, if

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you're in a great mood, and
you're engaging other people all

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the time, and they're reading
positivity, friendliness,

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openness from you, and the way
that they do that is

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nonverbally, they're probably
going to treat you differently

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than they are going to treat the
guy who looks grumpy, stressed,

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and like he's just over it.

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Host: How do you go about doing
that? Like, how do I start the

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journey of becoming confident if
I don't feel that way?

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Jordan Harbinger: That's a great
question. Especially because,

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you know, a lot of people go
well, what causes this in the

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first place, and I don't want to
zoom out too far. Because I'm

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not a psychologist. I'll just
blanket statements a parents

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upbringing environment, that can
ruin us, just as it can make us.

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You know, the kids who were
really fun, popular and great

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and well adjusted in school,
they had a different environment

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than the kid who never said
anything and had some trouble

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going on at home. Right? We all
that's like a cliche, it's so

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obvious now. Now we look at the
way that people are the way that

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people behave. And as adults, we
carry 99% of the crap we had in

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childhood, we can slowly start
to outgrow it. And we can slowly

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start to become confident, but
it doesn't mean all that stuff

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goes away. It has to be a manual
process. Just like if you're 100

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pounds overweight. You don't
just gradually Oh, you know what

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I just randomly got in shape.
No, it's you had to change your

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habits, right? You had to change
the way you eat. You have to

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change the way you exercise. And
usually you have to change the

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way that you think about
yourself. Because if you and I

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grew up together, and you were
fat when we were kids, and this

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is hypothetical, I have no idea
whether or not you were fat or

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not. I Let's say that you were
like 100 pounds overweight, you

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were always a fat kid. And we
went to college in different

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places, and I haven't seen you,
and then we have our high school

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reunion. And you're thin, right?
I know, you've made a change.

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And it's dramatic. And everyone
that knows, you knows that

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you've made a change. Now, if I
was always the shy kid, and you

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know, all the way through middle
school, high school, and then I

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go to college, and we have our
high school reunion, what would

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it take for you to notice that
I'm less shy? And how would you

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measure that? You wouldn't
really, I mean, you might

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notice, because maybe I'm a
little bit more outgoing than I

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was, but you and I were friends.
So I wasn't really shy with you.

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I was more shy with, you know,
women or other strangers, but

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you wouldn't really notice that
because the way I interact with

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you hasn't changed all that
much. And there's no gradient

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that you can say, Well, Jordan
was, you know, he used to be

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really shy. And now he's what
less shy I mean, those are the

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most descriptive terms that you
can really give that type of

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change. It's another thing, if
you look at people who knew me

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growing up, and they go, Wow,
you're like a totally different

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person, because my change is
really drastic. So when you look

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at somebody who's has a physical
change, that's dramatic, you go,

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wow, you know, what, you really
did something, what was it and

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they have a strategy that was
backed by science, that looks

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like it probably was the reason
why they've changed the way that

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they appear. If I have science
based strategies that change the

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way that I behave, there's a 90%
chance that most of the people

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that I interact with will not
even really notice that much.

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Because they're wrapped up in
their own stuff. Now, someone's

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appearance is so basic, that you
always notice the difference.

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That's why you'll see somebody
that you've known for years, and

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you'll go, did you get a haircut
or something? But you would

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never go? Amen. Did you um, did
you suddenly talk to three

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strangers that you never would
have talked to this morning,

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you'd never, you know, you never
will have that. So it's in part,

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its measurement, or lack of
ability to measure. And to it

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has to be such a dramatic change
for most people to notice other

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than you, right? Because your
first impressions are already

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kind of made. That's why it's
even more dramatic to notice

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that somebody has lost weight,
or gained it, versus somebody

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who you know, changing their
personality, because that image

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is already there. If you meet a
bunch of new people, after you

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make dramatic changes to your
personality, they see you in a

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completely different way. That's
why I go by my middle name now,

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which is Jordan, and people who
I grew up with are used to

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calling me let's say, Eric,
right? So people who I'm young

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when I was younger, they go man,
you you don't look like a

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Jordan. I can't call you,
Jordan. And people that I meet

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now go, oh, man, I can't call
you Eric. There's no way I could

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call you, Eric. I don't look
like a Jordan or not look like

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an Eric. That's ridiculous,
right? The only thing is their

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perception of me their initial
one is what's burned into their

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brain. And so now the new one
doesn't quite jive with what

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they imagined me to be. And
that's why it's so hard to

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notice. If somebody's made
dramatic changes. It's not that

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it's not science based. It's not
that this can't be done. It's

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just that we don't have good
measurements for it other than

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subjective perception.

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Host: Yeah. So you mentioned
that word perception.  Is the

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biggest part of perception, the
way that we perceive ourselves

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first, and then charisma or
confidence become sort of the

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outward display of the
perception of ourselves. Would

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you agree with that?

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Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man,
that's brilliant. Yeah. And in

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fact, I couldn't have said it
better myself. Because the thing

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is, you can't be or it's very
difficult to be outwardly

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charismatic. If you have a lot
of trouble perceiving yourself

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as somebody who's confident now
you can act charismatic, don't

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get me wrong. So everyone right
now is like no, but that one

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guy, right? No, you can act
charismatic. Look at a lot of

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me, you see these actors that
have like these crazy substance

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abuse problems and stuff, when
they're acting, they're

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phenomenal. But they're acting,
it's an art, right? You can try

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to do that as much as you want.
But the whole point of this

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exercise is for you to become
happier and more fulfilled, and

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create better relationships not
to make other people think that

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you're cool. That's that's the
unhealthy stuff that we were

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just talking about in the
beginning of the show. So we all

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probably met those kids, or even
adults where you think, man, you

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know, this kid's so cool. He's
tall. He's athletic. Oh, the

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girl was like, Man, I wish I was
him. And then you know, you have

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that one drunken and like, cool,
intimate conversation with the

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guy and you find out that he
like, hates his parents, and he

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feels like he's stupid. And the
only thing he has is athletics,

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but he's not good enough to get
into college. So he's like

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really insecure about his future
and you're like, holy crap, this

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guy has real problems. What I
didn't know that. You know, the

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whole time. You're wishing
you're wishing you're him and

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he's thinking what am I going to
do after this? Right? He's the

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most insecure guy you've ever
met. And the reason that you

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thought that is because you went
well, I'm below him on this

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ladder and on this measurement,
I'm less and on that other

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measurement. I'm last and he's
definitely beat got me beat

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here, here and here. You know,
you this is all a matter of self

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perception, just as his
shortcomings are also a matter

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of self perception.

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Host: What is your definition of
charm?

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Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's
really tough. Let people ask me

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that all the time. But it really
comes down to a lot of different

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things. I mean, there's this
cutesy definition where it's

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like, getting the answer without
having to ask the question, you

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know, that's all fine and good.
But it depends on a lot of such

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I know, this is a worst answer
ever. But it depends on the

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situation, right? You know, if
you're looking at at this from

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like, the confidence and
charisma angle that we've just

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been discussing, it's literally
to be so confident in yourself

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that you're comfortable being
authentic, which means you're

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comfortable being vulnerable,
because here's going back to the

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beginning of this conversation,
a lot of guys go, Yeah, I'm

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confident I could like beat up
anybody who disrespects me.

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Well, that's not really
confidence, right? Because

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clearly, you're not going to
beat up anyone who disrespects

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you, you're tough guy, you're
just really hurting and really

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insecure. So you act like that,
right. And you see these truly

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confident guys that you've
rarely meet. And they're really

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honest about what they're afraid
of. And then they're the ones

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who are really close with their
mothers and fathers and wives

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and girlfriends and kids,
because they can be vulnerable,

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they can come back after a hard
day of at work, and they can be

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00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:10,380
the spaghetti Flying Spaghetti
Monster or whatever to their kid

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and they can, they can take care
of the emotional needs of their

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family. That type of thing.
That's extremely, that takes a

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lot of development, right? And
it takes a lot of confidence to

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be able to go you know what, I'm
going to quit this job that I

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don't like and start a business.
They're confident enough to

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admit when they're wrong,
they're confident enough to

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continue learning through life
without having to prove to other

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people that they already know
everything. So it's more like a

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savoir faire type of thing
that's evolved into really the

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type of savoir faire itself,
where it doesn't matter what

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other people's perceptions might
be. We may teach you to read

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those and others we may teach
you to display them well to

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others. But really, it's about
you, you know, it's about how

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you feel how comfortable are you
in your own skin because there's

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nothing more attractive than
somebody who's got that nailed.

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Host: Mm hmm. Well, I appreciate
it, brother. You're doing a good

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thing.

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Jordan Harbinger: Appreciate it,
man. Thank you