Hi, everyone.
Welcome to this week's episode of scaling expertise.
Will we talk to experts who have successfully scaled their businesses
and also help and have tips for you to scale your business?
I'm very excited about this week's guest, Katie Nelson, who is the
founder and CEO of Sales Uprising.
Hi, Katie.
Welcome.
Thank you.
I'm so
excited
to be here.
This is going to be a fantastic conversation.
So before we get started, if you could just let us know who you
serve and how you serve them.
I can tell you that who I serve are the solopreneurs that are
looking to get to their first, second or third seven figures.
So those of us that take our expertise and decide to hit the road.
it's a very bumpy road and we're building the plane as we decide to fly it.
the reason why I do that is because what's in my heart is to serve local communities.
And the money, the river of money that flows through our local communities,
the majority of it comes from our small business community, it's not corporations.
They've got other agendas.
it's for us to watch our own.
So I'm The service based businesses looking to get to their first quarter of a
million on the way to their first, second and third seven figures is my cup of tea.
Fantastic.
And it's never been more important for us to think about community and being
inclusive and making sure we have an economy that works for more of us.
Doing that work is fantastic.
Very happy about that.
So we're going to talk about, scaling, of course, because that is in the
name of the podcast, talk about it.
So one, I want to talk about how you work with your clients to
help them scale their business.
What a great question.
So before I answer that, can I ask you a question?
Sure.
Okay.
Can you give me your definition of scaling?
Ah.
So, to me, scaling
means growing revenue without increasing resources.
either I am not working more to get that, additional income, or I am getting
the same income with fewer resources.
So either way, or both, even better.
Perfect.
Okay.
So the reason why I asked this is because I can't assume which definition you use.
And if you were like any entrepreneur, I know you listen to many, many
podcasts, read a ton of books and The variation always is slightly different,
So one of the ways that I help my clients is to let them understand
where they are in their business.
I'm known as a startup expert.
So anywhere after launch, right?
After you've had your first sales round, you have your first five figures
coming in the door between that and 250 K. Is what we consider to be startup.
for businesses that are looking to get beyond that, the reason why I say that
is because by your definition, you could scale your business from 50 K to 250 K.
I just don't.
Talk about it in those terms.
I talk about scaling your business.
Once you get probably past your quarter of a million to half a million dollars.
but in essence, our definition would be the same because I do believe
that it's growing revenue without increasing your hours, right?
Your output and all of those things.
So one of the ways that I do that is actually teaching my clients
how to leverage their time better.
We absolutely take a look at their pricing and whether or not that's
appropriate and they're doing things like charging what you're worth, which is
actually the name of one of my courses.
and taking a look at their packaging.
as a business owner who's been in sales my whole life, keys to being
even able to get to any kind of scalability are in understanding
the basis of those three things.
Yeah.
And so I think people often confuse I know how to increase my revenue by, working
harder and they consider that a win.
Do you consider that a win?
not the way you say it, I believe in working smarter, not harder,
which is why things like leveraging tools have the ability to help
you grow to a scalable place.
So in the way, so no, I don't believe that work.
I believe that in the beginning of your business, working hard is
relatively inherent, depending on the level of success you choose to get to.
And based on what you know about business, not on what you're an expert on.
Right.
So I would come to you to protect.
Everything.
I would come to you to provide me with more assets in terms of my
intellectual property, my copyrights, my trademarks, all of those things, all
of those build assets for my business.
But that's only one piece of being a business owner.
So in the very beginning, it really is just about understanding your market.
It's the simplest of the things, and that's going to be a lot of hard work.
Yes.
The goal is to not have that for the entirety of our business and to grow to a
place where we can give ourselves uplift.
So do I think that working harder is the way to go?
Only for periods of
time.
Absolutely.
So how do your potential clients know they need you?
What are they going through that they go, I need to call Katie?
Ah, they go.
Oh my gosh, I did.
So I was awesome.
I killed it last year.
I made X amount of money.
And then the next or the next year I didn't, and I don't know how to fix it.
Like, I don't know where it all went.
I think people just aren't buying so that is a fundamental challenge and
how you would know you need to me.
Another version of that is.
one of my favorite client success stories, literally came to me and said,
okay, I've had my business for 10 years.
It was great.
I'm ready to do more because my kids are taken care of now.
They're a little bit, they're about to fly away.
but here's the deal.
I've made 185 K for 10 years.
I've tried to make more.
I would have been happy if I made less, but I can't figure
out how to crack the code.
Like, what am I doing?
I only know what I know, I'm open to recognizing now.
I don't know how to get to the next.
that's how you would know you might need to meet.
Yes.
I think that ceiling, happens to a lot of us.
It's happened to me.
It's happened to a lot of us.
Like, how do I get over that hump?
And I found that people who come to me, oftentimes they're
somewhat undifferentiated.
and they want to increase the market by helping more people, you
know, I've got this expertise and I can share it with lots of people.
So what were the problems with that?
So for your listeners, they may think you're completely setting me up, but
please note, she said, undifferentiated.
She didn't say don't have a target market or not niched, which would be the things
you would hear me say all over the place.
But I believe that's exactly what you're talking about, right?
there are three words that.
I try really hard not to use and make me cringe when I hear them out in the
wild, in the business wild, which are anyone like help anyone or just help
anyone, the words, just the words help.
And the words, anyone are not beneficial to the success of your business.
If you are new in business, it may be the most comfortable thing to say.
Wonderful.
No, that, The challenge I would put forward to anyone would be, set yourself
a date and time, you know, if networking is brand new to you, Aaron, take the
hack and go with what's easy for a minute, but put a deadline on how long
you're going to use that, because what the room hears is, They can help anyone.
They don't need me.
I don't know why they're doing targeting marketing, like target
networking, like they can help anyone, Or because they can help anyone.
I cannot literally flip through my mental Rolodex, for anybody who's
younger, my mental list of contacts.
I
still hear the word Rolodex in the wild, it just,
I don't know if they know what it means, but I definitely hear it.
Well, and that's the thing, I actually used to have one, right?
So that's literally my mental Rolodex, where you flip it all
and you get to your Z, oh my gosh.
Okay, so you know, you're going through your list of contacts and going, oh,
they just said the words that let me know I have an introduction for them.
Right?
So being unspecified is not helpful at all.
how I describe it is like a dartboard.
the most points on any dartboard are the tiniest spot.
that's where things really start getting going for you.
This is what, this would be considered the wind beneath your wings is being
as targeted as you possibly can.
to get to your success.
Well, how have you applied these rules and these, suggestions to your business?
Obviously, I'm sure you're on your second, third or fourth, seven figures.
So tell us about, well, I guess there's only three, but, how
have you scaled your business?
where did you start?
How'd you get to where you are today?
Okay.
So that story is a little bit longer.
How I started was two businesses ago.
So I'm a third time business owner.
and the first two businesses were in a completely different market.
So they were also services based, but I co owned two professional services and
staffing companies, that serviced small to mid sized government contractors.
And how I scaled those businesses is much different than how I scaled this one.
because I chose to have a different business model.
When I first started Sales Uprising, I have no problem selling, Aaron.
I don't know if that, comes across at all.
the name of my company is Sales Uprising.
Everybody needs to go get one.
so selling has never, that's absolutely my expertise, but my genius zone is allowing
business owners to understand how sales, is their friend and how they can do it
to the betterment of their business.
That's my superpower.
How I scaled my business was.
Through failure.
I know that sounds crazy.
but very early on within the first six months of my business, I had clients
and I was, I felt so good because, you know, I had just come out of owning
a business that I had generated a 6 million run rate in under three years.
And so I was extremely nervous about what was this going to look like Was my
network going to be able to follow me?
Was I going to have to start all over?
Or am I just too old for that?
So many doubts and all of these things.
And, it turns out I made deals.
And then I did the math and I'm like, I don't understand
why my math isn't mapping.
I am going to have to work until I'm 90 to make my first hundred K.
Okay.
So my prices are off.
So that's my first.
And I'd already owned a business, right?
So I say this because each individual business and each individual service
based business, if the service offering and potentially target
market are different, it will also look different and how you need to
go about it, is in a different lens.
So I scaled my business through a lot of, mistakes early on.
I immediately, bit off all my fingernails.
figuratively and spent what I thought was exorbitant amounts
of money on a business coach.
and it turns out it was the best investment I ever made.
Made so much money in that first year I didn't even notice
that exorbitant investment.
And I just, honestly, That first year of business.
Let me say, yep, I don't know everything.
Like I've done this before and I don't know everything.
So teach me your ways.
Oh world, you know, I'm in this new space.
Teach me everything.
Yeah.
Reaching out for help is super important.
if you are the expert and whatever you do, leadership, development, whatever it is.
There's an expert who knows how to grow your business and help you do that.
And we love expertise.
We believe in it.
We believe in staying in our lane and letting experts
help us do what they do best.
So that makes a ton of sense to me.
So when people worry about a lot of people, you know, they have
this, maybe it's their signature offer, that it's high ticket.
It's.
highly customized, and they worry about that scaling is going to,
devalue that high ticket offer.
Do you have any ideas about how they can feel better about, scaling is
going to devalue their high ticket offer?
What's the mechanism for that?
Well, if I stop, being highly, customized and I'm not doing something
specific for each client, like how can I scale my premier service?
Ah,
okay.
So personalization and high touch.
is another way to say what Aaron's talking about, I think.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm . Yeah.
You know I heard that right?
Okay.
Yeah.
the answer to this question lies in each business owner's revenue,
goals, and vision for their business.
the answer to this question is going to look different if you're like,
I wanna get to 250 K and I'm good.
Mm-hmm . Or I wanna get to half a million and see if I wanna go further.
Mm-hmm . The answer requires context of understanding what you
want as a business owner first.
And if we take away that context at its most basic and where we
can average it out where there's a median that my answer will apply to
both scenarios, It doesn't have to.
I understand the feeling of that.
Feelings aren't facts.
And as long as you are going with the concept of your private time
is the most expensive time that you sell, you're in the right lane
to get to where you want to be.
Absolutely.
when we first start, we don't know.
I can find who I think might be my competition, see if they've posted
their rates online so I can try and do some of my own little market research,
decide if those hourly rates are my cup of tea and if I think I can sell it.
that's really important.
Yes.
if I'm comfortable at a hundred bucks an hour, great, go get a couple
of those deals under your belt.
the business you do in your first couple of years of business is
not the business that you do.
If you have a growth mindset and you're willing to learn the lessons, it's not
the business that you do in your third and fourth and fifth year of business.
Right.
So it's okay.
Give yourself some grace in the beginning to really, really hammer
at home, somewhere in the middle.
Yeah.
There's two things you said that I want to respond to.
One is that things will mature the, you you start with that, I can help
anybody and everybody, but then you'll start to see like there's this
specific type of client that I have the best results with or that I like
working with the most, or that's the most profitable, whatever it may be.
And then you start drilling in on that, client.
And that is one way as we keep working with that same client
with similar needs that we become more efficient and can get better.
And then the other thing that you said was that the most
valuable resource is your time.
when we are the founders of our businesses, like we are the most
expensive resource in there.
If you're looking at it from a, Cost of goods.
Right.
A straight perspective.
Yes.
We are the most expensive resource.
And so we can also build scale through less expensive human resources, right?
It doesn't include
us.
What Aaron said, less expensive human resources, which is less than you.
So if you're newer in business, you wear all the hats like an E Myth, right?
You're the technician, the manager and the CEO.
Beautiful analogy.
and let's just pay attention to that really, really quickly.
For those of you who are like, I currently have a full time job, but I really
want to make my side gig the thing.
And I've done my side gig forever and I think it could work, but I
don't know how to make it happen.
Look, if you hold three jobs, pay yourself for three jobs, as a business owner, you
go into business saying, you know what, if I just make the same as I made in my
paycheck, you're thinking about it wrong.
Yes.
Immediately engineered a challenge into the growth of your business,
because the only reason why you can get paid that amount in that way is
because it's somebody else's cost,
Somebody else holds the cost of your seat as an employee.
So now you're doubling your cost because you're your employee.
Yes.
I believe that is one of the hardest mindset shifts.
for people, ex corporate people.
100%. Like, I match my salary.
I'm doing good.
And, or maybe they get a little more, and what they're not understanding
how much their costs have increased.
If in your audience, you really see like, Katie, this is like the hardest thing.
There's a couple of hacks that I give people for them to understand it.
One, is your business costs money.
Like it's a baby bird.
It needs to be fed, but it costs, you have taxes.
And I am not talking about whether or not you are an sole proprietor
LLC, S Corp, B Corp, C Corp taxes.
It applies across the board.
you can fiddle with it with your bookkeeper and CPA as much as
you want, but it's still owed.
So those are automatically extracted.
So you're thinking, okay, I make a hundred K.
Minus my taxes.
I net 84k.
So if my business makes 84k, you see where that's wrong?
where's your taxes taken out?
Much less the cost of your computer or your phone or anything else.
And you now have three jobs.
That's
exactly right.
Yes.
That's the most fun.
So let's get back to scaling your business for a second.
So you mentioned my favorite words, intellectual property.
What do you, how do you think about intellectual property in your business?
Did you always understand its importance or is that something that you had to
learn the hard way and how, what part does it play in your business now?
I love that you asked me this question so that I can give all intellectual
property lawyers their due.
At least the ones who understand the importance of small business.
in the beginning of my business.
Because that portion of my vision wasn't clear, having intellectual
property assets and copyrights wasn't necessarily what I was thinking about.
Let's be clear.
and I don't tell my people it's necessary to think about it.
There's no reason to spend that money if you don't know that you can sell.
there really isn't.
Why would you spend the money and then hold your breath for a year?
Because people, when you work, to make sure that your IP is protected and
nobody can help this, but the USPTO, it's going to take at least a year.
it takes a maturity to use a word that you've put out there to understand
how IP can work for your business.
And I would tell you that regardless of how small a
business you are, IP is important.
It is literally an asset.
Now, you may never choose to use that as an asset.
in the same way that your home is an asset.
Mm-hmm . You may never choose to sell your house for profit and then
flip that profit into something else.
In the same way that you won't use your trademark asset to go
to your m and a and look for an early exit or whatever the case is.
but it is an asset.
It really does.
In a way that your website doesn't do it, your copy doesn't do it, your podcast
doesn't do it, it says, I'm a real boy, to borrow a phrase from Pinocchio, I
understand one, my importance as this business's importance, it's probably
One of the first places where you will separate potentially your business from
you as the CEO or founder right now.
did right by my own business.
I have my little are right.
I love my little are, It means registered trademark people registered, you can
have just letting you know, I say that because I had to learn that I
didn't know, of course I've seen it on my Doritos bag every day I live,
but I didn't know what that meant.
and it's one of the things I'm just so proud of that I took a chance on.
You want to talk about something I really didn't know.
and it feels great when you can put forward your argument on paper to
say, these are the things, this is why I am different we talk about
value differentiators a lot in business, especially in marketing
and sales functions, on the backend.
IP and your trademark are your value differentiators.
Yes.
I'm going to agree and disagree with you.
Oh, yay.
Tell me.
so we have the trademarks and the trademark like sales
uprising or McDonald's or FedEx that tells the consumer who is
providing that good or service.
But the good or service itself is not protected by trademark.
So when I am an expert and I am creating a training program, that
training program is protected through copyright laws and through
copyright registration and copyrights attached at the moment of creation.
When I create an original work, And I put it, you know, I make my slideshow.
I have my workbooks.
I have, my training materials.
I created a copyrightable asset that I have exclusive rights to that nobody else
can copy or use without my permission.
And that is something that we're doing every day.
We're creating something right here as we record this podcast.
We do it every day.
We, post on LinkedIn.
We do it every time we, have some sort of, interview that is recorded, And so
when we are working with our clients say, if you're using your intellect,
you're creating intellectual property.
So if you're working with your client as the expert and you're
working with them, then you're creating intellectual property.
The question to me, what I like to ask is who owns that though?
Do you own it or do they own it?
And so that's where we need to be mindful about making sure if
we want to create our own assets, that we can continue to leverage.
We need to make sure that we own them.
And so it's a hundred percent.
Is as you said, like how you become known because you become known by the results
you provide to your clients and you provide those results because you have
effective materials, effective training, effective workshops, things like that.
so yes to trademarks and trademarks are definitely more expensive.
So that is why I agree that you should wait to make the investment in your
trademark until you absolutely know who you are, because I will say I have
personally wasted money on trademarks that I thought this is genius.
I love this.
And then okay, that's not what I'm going to do now.
So, yeah, making sure you know what you're going to do, but your
copyrights you know those Don't require registration for protection.
although there are reasons to, of course, to register them.
If you want to,
can I ask you a question really quick?
Absolutely.
Because I didn't hear any disagreement in what you said.
And the reason why I didn't is because you'll note, all I did was
talk about trademarks, I didn't even talk about copyrights because, and I
didn't realize it until you started talking about it for me, copyrights
are the easiest part to understand.
And probably because they don't require a lawyer until they do.
so of course, when we create a PowerPoint or now a Canva, like whatever it is,
it's going to have your copyright protection on it, the name of your
company, like all of those things.
So for me, that's in a matter of course, and I didn't learn that.
And as a business owner, I learned that as a business development
person in a company who was making presentations for my clients.
So that's probably why I didn't mention it, but I do have a
deeper question for you about it.
At what point?
So just to let you know, We could really get deep into it because I
also have a sub licensed product, which requires all of its own things,
uh, legally.
And when we talk about scaling, it's definitely a mechanism that one can use.
with that being said.
I'm looking to get to my first 250 K, I have presentations made.
I have education and training in all of these things.
At what point should I really think to myself, I need to get
this all to my lawyers straight away so that it can go through some
kind of copyright registration?
Yeah.
Well, we want to make sure that it is registered before we are going
to license it to third parties now.
100%, yes.
My, my general recommendation.
Is that we register for copyright protection are moneymakers.
I just use the term moneymakers again, we're creating content all day, every
day, almost all of us puts out new content every day, and we're not
going to register all that stuff.
But the things that you would hire a lawyer to, defend an
infringement or to prosecute an infringement, that stuff, register it.
And so when it's, what we register is the Final form.
So make sure it's in final form.
If you have a draft of something that's not ready yet, don't register that.
Register the thing that you want to, protect against
infringement from third parties.
And that would be my recommendation.
Can I just give maybe a couple people in your audience, like
the exact example of what you're talking about, at least in my way.
Yes.
Okay.
So if me now, people, if you are a coach or course creator, what
Aaron just said, and thank you so much for answering this question.
Cause I never thought to ask before, when you have sold enough to know
exactly what your target market needs and you were about to use.
Programs as a way to scale your business in an effort to leverage your time Prior
to going out and selling that take the final form of those programs which will
have been created through the actual delivery to said clients previously So now
you know exactly what your people need.
You know, the exact, timing that they need to receive it.
You know, what's going to hit them and hit them hard to their best interest, right?
It is at the moment that you choose to go bigger with that,
that you need to call Aaron.
Yes.
Did I get it right?
You're perfect.
I did not pay her for that.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
That's a hundred percent.
I love the way that you put it in those terms.
like that.
Yes.
Well, this is, you know, this is an amazing key piece to the thing
because I teach people literally when you say, Katie, how do you
work with your clients to scale?
We do work on the creation of these things.
There is so much time and effort that goes into creating them
before they should get to you.
Yes,
right.
or any lawyer because it can be expensive to do it over and over and over again, I
would think that the expense and effort of that in and of itself would be exhausting.
It's a toll.
It's a cost.
I do have another follow up question though.
Once I have final forms and I get them to you, is it like a
trademark where it takes a year?
No,
it is, fairly simple.
It takes a while.
I did one recently.
I'm trying to remember exactly how long it took from the time we've
registered till I got the copyright.
Registration certificate.
I want to, it was no more than two months.
I can't remember exactly.
I have to look.
Okay.
So no
general generalities, like I say a year so that everybody has a really good
idea that when they hire you, you're not going to, it's not this slap dash.
They get a gold.
Our circle, like it has a really long governmental process.
It's got to go to, and that doesn't even include if somebody fights it.
And that is one of the distinctions between copyright registration
and trademark registration because you don't have that whole process.
Because
you own it as you,
right?
As soon as you create it, you own it, assuming you didn't
copy anybody, you own it.
and you didn't use AI, but that's another conversation.
Oh, please
don't make me have that conversation.
can you and I plan to do this again in like six months when I'm more
educated on the law side of that and all know all the questions I should ask?
Well,
wait a minute.
This is my podcast.
Oh,
fantastic.
Heard.
Yes, we can have that conversation anytime.
I love to talk about that too.
Oh my gosh.
This has been so fantastic, Katie.
A plus guess.
I gotta tell you, this has made it so much fun and so informative.
I know everyone got a ton of value from this episode.
Thank you so much.
So I want to talk about what's coming up new for you.
Something that we want to tell the audience about that they should
check out.
New for me.
Oh, new.
so audience, I'm going to tell you the reason why I'm like,
what is she talking about?
Why is Katie so taken aback by new?
one of the ways to scale your business is to get it right and keep doing it
until it's honed to a fine, fine point.
As an entrepreneur, we have tons of new ideas.
They literally go in a new ideas box on the corner of my desk and I
review them once a year I already have planned the success of my year.
So, as far as new, I think one of the things I talk to people about is.
What was old is new again.
So I'm going to go back live in person, for the first time to hold masterclasses
for the past couple of years.
I cannot wait to do it.
I do four of them a year.
Oh, fantastic.
go around the country so that different people can get access to you or,
oh, no, they all need to fly here to the top of the world.
no, the new part of doing new and old is that they will probably be hybrid.
and then of course I've picked a new location for my strategic
business planning retreat.
That'll be in Colorado this year.
I host a strategic business planning retreat for business owners every year.
it's some of the most important
CEO time we can give ourselves and somehow it always falls to
the bottom of the task list and we look at it sometime in February.
am as guilty as anyone about the old working in the business
instead of on the business thing.
So yes, so easy.
Well, we'll make sure we put, if you have the details about that, we'll make
sure we get that into the show notes as well as where they can find you now.
Where should people find more Katie?
if they want to find more Katie and giggle, go to YouTube at Sales Uprising.
I have what I would call short clips.
it's a series called Feed the Fire because cash flow is oxygen
for the fire of your business.
So we're looking to feed the fire.
They're about one and a half to two and a half minute clips of me being like,
okay, I know this is how you think.
And that's how this is antithetical to the growth of your business.
So they're just little quick hit tips.
and that's great way to continue to get to know me.
Fantastic.
We will have that in the share notes as well.
Well, thank you again, Katie.
It has been an absolute pleasure to have you on and we will have to do this again.
I look forward to it.
Thank you.