0:00:05.3 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:08.9 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 VB: Each week, we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others and give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.6 AS: Welcome back, friends.

0:00:34.5 VB: Hi, hi. You're in it. Yeah. By now...

0:00:39.8 AS: Yeah. I mean, by now, everyone should be back in school. We've kind of had this, like, progression of some schools starting in August, and now everyone's finally back. So we're all in it trying to figure out how the recent changes are affecting this school year, and we're trying our best to give you guys as much information as possible about what you can do, how we can get information to everybody, because that's the key. It's just making sure everyone is kind of informed about what's going on.

0:01:09.4 VB: Absolutely. And I think it's really important with our conversation for today for that focus to center on, you know, the communities that a lot of these school districts and individual principals and staff are trying to create in the context of the larger world, right, and political climate that we're at where, you know, the Department of Education is being dismantled. Education is being attacked on all fronts. And, you know, we're still in a position where we are advocating for our kiddos where, you know, our kiddos go to school every day. And so then how are these conversations being navigated, especially around race and culture, just not even at the beginning of the school year that kind of sets the tone for the rest of the school year, but throughout. And that's where our guest comes in. Hello. Thank you for joining us.

0:02:00.7 Jebeh Edmunds: Thank you for having me, Vickie and Amanda. I'm so honored to be a guest today.

0:02:05.6 VB: Can you just give our listeners a little introduction and background about yourself?

0:02:11.3 JE: Yes. Hello, everyone. My name is Jebeh Edmunds. I am the founder and CEO of Jebeh Cultural Consulting. And that consulting firm helps disseminate multicultural educational lesson plans for kindergarten through 12th grade. They're all Common Core standards based. And we also do diversity, equity and inclusion trainings and cultural responsiveness trainings. We've done that with over 70 plus non-for-profit and for-profit companies and school districts. And in my previous hat of being an entrepreneur, I was a classroom teacher for 18 years in Duluth, Minnesota. And that's where I live. And so, yeah, continuing to just, you know, share multicultural educational resources. And I hail from Liberia. So I am a first generation Liberian-American immigrant. I've been in this country since I was a toddler. And so just having that cultural pride and dispelling and disrupting, you know, those racist stereotypes of what an African educator looks like and still doing the charge of continuing that life work.

0:03:26.1 VB: Literally, I was just going to say that life work, right?

0:03:29.8 AS: Yes.

0:03:30.4 VB: Becoming an expert, not just on the educational front, but on the experience front of being in the classroom and living your life, right? And, you know, that's why we were delighted to have you on because it is a really crucial topic, you know, and definitely under this administration that impacts, like I had said, that community of a school, right? Where every teacher, every student, every staff member is impacted. It just is. And I think a lot of times administrators fear saying the wrong things or doing the wrong things. And then it kind of it leads them into this kind of fawn reaction of inaction. And so, you know, we kind of wanted to hit off with, you know, what are some foundational steps that you think, you know, educators or school leaders, you know, can take to kind of set up the year in a successful way for

0:04:28.8 JE: Yes, well, a lot of us tend to have that fear, like you said, Vickie, of saying the wrong thing. And I always tell my clients, you will. We're in the human experience. You're just going to make that mistake. And you need to, especially being an educator mentor for your students, you're going to say, I'm a lifelong learner like you are in front of me. I will make that mistake. We would have that my job, your job charts in our classroom. I taught fifth grade, first grade. And that in both of them is like, my job is to learn from my mistakes as well as your job. But what I really want our educators to remember is we need to get away from, oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing. That to me is just an excuse of I don't want to do the work. I'm just going to put my head down. And I used to hear this all the time. Oh, I teach all of my students. I love all of my students. I know you do. But we also have to know we have that little bias that creeps up. And you say things or, oh, I know that family. I don't want their kid. You know where they're from.

0:05:38.2 JE: So I thought you loved all your students, right? And then you're, you know, so it goes beyond the signs of all are welcome here. You really need to put that into practice. So when I tell those educational institutions that I've worked with, it's like, we need to go beyond the signs. We need to have a library rich of all walks of life identities in there. And I also remind my educator friends that you might see with your naked eye one person's identity, but we have multiple identities that we carry. And when you harness that environment of that belonging space, they will show up different identities when they feel psychologically safe in your classroom.

0:06:19.3 AS: Yeah.

0:06:19.7 JE: So yeah. Embrace that. You're going to step in it.

0:06:23.6 AS: Part of getting the students, I think, feeling safe and part of a community is being real with them. And I think back to what you said about you're going to make mistakes, but you need to have the ability to acknowledge that like, hey, I'm human just like you, like you said, lifelong learners. And I think that's something that so many people, even educators have this assumption that like, oh, well, it's second graders. They don't understand. They can't critically think or this or that. And we're not giving children enough credit at all about what they're capable of. I mean, even I, over the earlier in the summer, the Supreme Court had discussions about one of the cases regarding LGBTQ themes in books. And one of the things that they kept talking about was, oh, well, like a kindergartner can't critically think. And so they can't do this and that. And I just, I mean, I did a whole reel on our social media about this because I was like, what are you talking about? Like, have you ever read a book to a four or five year old? Because they absolutely can critically think. You're not giving these kids enough credit that they can listen to what you're saying.

0:07:27.8 AS: And just because you say something and then you tell them you made a mistake, they're not going to assume like, oh, we're allowed to say that. No, have conversations with them.

0:07:36.2 VB: Right. Well, I think by six months, a baby can distinguish color, right? In people, not just color, right? And so if they really, as students, didn't have the capability to make that distinction, then okay, maybe they don't have the critical thinking. But if that's already happening, you know, at six months, by the time that even, you know, I think another study was like, you know, first grade kiddos, like they're really hyper aware, right? Of how they belong in the community and who are they and what identity to present at school, you know, maybe not at home, but here. And, you know, I wonder, you know, and it's a lot of the teachers that are at the forefront of, you know, providing strategies, right? What are some of the ones, and I love embracing just you're going to mess up because I think it kind of gives you permission to at least try. But I wonder for some of our administrators that listen, staff and teachers, what are some common maybe ineffective strategies? I can think of one off the top of my head just because it's I hear it all the time. And it's this colorblind approach. So I could imagine you've heard that one. Oh, yes. Oh, it drives me nuts.

0:08:55.6 JE: Yes. And just before I share with a quick example about that, When people do make mistakes, I want there also to be accountability. So when someone says, oh, I made a mistake, I want them to say, and I will do better. It is not your job, student or Jebba in my class, to do the work. I have to do the work. And that to me is the same thing, again, of, oh, I made a mistake. Oops. You know, Jebeh said we're going to get comfortable with making mistakes. But then you have to own it and you have to move on. And one particular one, like you're saying with, I don't see color, always around Martin Luther King Day. I walked in, I was visiting our first grade class and she had a brown egg cracked on a plate and a white egg cracked. And then she had a picture of Martin Luther King in the little, oh, you know, one of his like, you know, his quote from I Have a Dream, not based on the color of your skin, but your content of your character. You know, we've seen that. And these little six and seven year olds are like, we just see eggs that are not cooked.

0:09:59.2 JE: What does it have to do with this man in a mustache? Like, what are we doing here? And I said, I would always tell my colleagues, I'm like, leave your eggs in the fridge. It has nothing to do. And talk about the context. Yes, he was saying that because they were seeing him as a threat. And that is something a lot of people when they're talking about MLK and I called it like the fabulous five, you know, of our Black History Month icons, you know, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, you know, Malcolm X, if we hear Malcolm X and Barack Obama, but that's it, you know, and I would always joke and say, well, I'm still Black in March. Like, we can still continue to do these lessons throughout the year. So another thing with the I don't see color, I would always tell folks that I came encountered with who would say that even administrators that I've worked with in the past, oh, Jeb, I don't see color. I just see you. I said, well, you don't see all of me as a human being.

0:11:00.5 JE: You see, if you see somebody in a wheelchair, do you say, oh, I don't see you in a wheelchair. I just see you. How dangerous is that, you know? And so those are the things where, like you said, you know, a baby at six months can decipher skin tone. So then why am I shooing and shunning my curious fifth grader who has a question about race? You know, we don't talk about that here. Or, you know, Jeb is here because she's supposed to be here. But well, the kid is curious and wants to know, you know, what are her lived experiences compared to mine? And that's okay. That's how we have this, you know, and we're saying now in our day and age, too, of so much going on in our education and so much being erased. We as educators and administrators need to find the educator experts out there that have the vetted resources with the access that we have, you know, so there's still hope.

0:11:59.7 AS: Yeah. Well, it's so important as early on as we can to be having these conversations with children because at a certain point, they get so ingrained if we're just like, shh, we don't talk about this, like, don't worry about it. Then they become the adults that are doing exactly what we don't want them to do. And so it goes, as you're saying, it goes back to what we were saying. We need to have these conversations with each other, but also with the kids and early on, not let's wait till they're in high school and they're learning about it in their history books because what's going to happen when their history book doesn't include this? Because we know what's happening.

0:12:35.9 JE: You know it, Amanda. And what if, oh, I've heard this too. Oh, we don't have anybody of color here. Why do we need to have this lesson? And just by looking, yes. And just how dangerous that is too. Like, we don't have the headache, so why are you giving us the aspirin? It's like, no, no, no, no, no. This is preventative, so you don't have the headache when you interact with my two biracial children that are like, again, avian. You know, like, we need to be not reactive, but proactive. And you're right. You know, so many of this is, we don't have time. And it's like, well, we have the resources to help you with that. You know, time should not be the excuse. Or we've been cut of this. There's so many free resources out there that you can still do this work for free. That's out there. So that's the thing where I was a classroom teacher, you know, like, we rub two pennies together and we make a wonderful environment for our students. So there's no excuse of there's no time, no money, and that fear of retaliation. It's like, well, when I'm in my classroom community, I am the head of that community.

0:13:44.0 VB: Yes.

0:13:44.4 JE: This is what I have that responsibility to continue with this future.

0:13:48.9 AS: And that's why we have so many amazing diverse books that are available to be in your classroom library, your school library, your community library, and why it's so important that we have these books. Because if you don't have, you know, as diverse a population of kiddos, if you don't have a person of color, if you don't have a person with two dads, you don't have a person in a wheelchair, or you're not seeing their disabilities, that's what books can help us. I mean, that's the purpose of books, right? We say early kids, one of the best things you can do early in intervention is reading. Okay, so just automatically include these books in your reading. It doesn't take any more time.

0:14:28.5 JE: It doesn't take any more time. And it's a launching pad for those open, brave discussions. It's huge. It's huge. It's beyond the multicultural posters. But then you have nothing that reflects me or only the black sidekick. They're never the main character. Or you're talking about Africa, it's jungles. But Jebeh's from Africa, and she lived in a house. We saw her picture. Well, that's just her. No, that's reality for a lot of us. But they get all flustered, and it's like, we got a lot of work to do.

0:15:03.5 AS: So we love to give practical tips to our listeners, especially those that are teachers and administrators. Can you give us some advice about what an educator can do when a hot moment arises, like when there is a comment, a question, an incident? In the moment, what can they do appropriately and responsibly?

0:15:22.3 JE: Oh, appropriately, yes. Well, then let's just, especially let's say, for example, if there was a harmful statement, you could say, this statement could be hurtful, and I think we should unpack it together. And it's a fine line, because as teachers, we need to decipher if this is bullying behavior, if this is something that I'm just going to have a gotcha moment with my teacher. So teachers, they think quick on their feet. But if they have that hurtful statement, you can say, yeah, this is very hurtful. And I'm not just going to point out to Jebeh in the classroom, like, you're offending people like Jebba. No, don't ever call a child out in a moment like that, because that child is already feeling that they're already the recipient of that. But you also need to call it out. You can't ignore, like, I didn't hear it. You always have to go, hmm, what did you mean by that statement? Call out the statement first. And then secondly, you can say, you know, this is something beyond what I am capable or equipped to do.

0:16:26.3 JE: Let's have the principal come in and help us navigate this. That is also good so the administrator knows that this has happened, because nine times out of 10, you're going to have a student in that room that will call their parents and say, the teacher reacted this way, and I don't feel safe coming to class. I'm going to skip that class. But at least have the administrator know that this is happening. This is how you addressed it. We're so big on, you know, documenting everything. You have to document. And you also have to have privately that support with that child, you know, away from their peers to say, I'm here to support you. You're not alone. I did talk, you know, I will take care of this and follow up. You know, there will be those moments where you have that deer in the headlights, like, oh, my gosh, I was just doing this lesson and then this happened.

0:17:19.0 VB: Right, right.

0:17:19.7 JE: You have to address it. You can't just go, oh, okay, we'll talk to you after recess. Or, you know what, we don't talk like that here and moving on. No, no, no, no, no, no. Those students are already checked out of what you are doing. You have to address it. Go, man, that's a really hurtful statement. Maybe you do that at home. But in our classroom environment, that statement is not welcomed here. You, as a leader of your class, have the right to say that statement is not welcomed in this classroom.

0:17:51.4 AS: And I would guarantee, especially for younger kids, the majority of those kids saying those words have no idea what it actually means. They heard it on TV, on social media, or from their parents. And they are repeating it having no idea. And if we ignore it and just say it's not allowed, they're never going to truly understand. And that's why these conversations are so important. Because then two other kids are going to hear it and be like, oh, it's not okay to say, oh, we love saying bad words.

0:18:19.7 JE: Yes, we love it. And then they have to follow up with the disciplinary actions that they have to do. I mean, come on. We can't just be swearing up a storm in our classroom and think we're not going to get punished. So if you're hearing some new slang, go in your urbandictionary.com, look it up. Even with two teenage sons, it's like, I don't know if I should laugh at this. Let me go look on my phone real quick and then we'll discipline accordingly. You've got to be two steps ahead too, because there is those nuanced phrases and words that aren't particularly a slur, but it is. You need to learn the language of the people that you're teaching too to make sure that you are having that safe environment for all of your students.

0:19:06.3 VB: And it's still a teaching moment. That is the purpose, right? Is it being teachable not to be disciplinary in the moment, but like you said, everybody in the whole class is like checked out at whatever you were doing before. Because some kids, it might hit them different, right? That you wouldn't think that it would, right? We don't want to put the burden completely on the children of color that are in the class because it's like, oh my gosh, this is my safe space and this was just said to me, right? And as the captain of the ship, I agree, you know, that it needs to be addressed and it kind of also reflects, I liked how you said at the beginning as well, you know, when we're trying to encourage administrators and teachers and staff to do something, right? To acknowledge, you know, you are going to make mistakes, but then the accountability. Because I think oftentimes, and that's what you were saying with like the "discipline", right? But it's more so the accountability and to be able to learn from it. And I think that that is like a wonderful way that we can also shift that kind of perspective of this is a teachable moment. Like it's going to happen. Don't think it's not because it is. And I think that also needs to shift as well. It will happen.

0:20:28.8 JE: It will happen. And also too, friends, it's those hot moments. You know that particular student, they come in hot. They always come in hot. They are ready to just, you know, get you off your game. And, you know, you could be having, you know, and they're trying to push that boundary too to see how far they can go, you know? And again, that's also another teachable moment of how are you creating a safe space for all of your students every single time and still meet it? It's never usually going to be that first day. It could be, you know, in the middle of December and then something comes up. And also too, do some research. You know, educators, you know, the classics, especially when we talk about literature and To Gill a Mockingbird, it's still, oh, it's still in our high schools. I was that student junior in high school and kids would be shouting that word in the middle. Oh, I want to read aloud. I want to do that. And they're looking at me trying to see my reaction. But it's a classic, Jeb. We have to. It's a part of our curriculum. There's plenty of other classics. We've always done it this way. Or let's not say the N word. Let's say black man. Does that make it better?

0:21:47.2 VB: Right.

0:21:50.6 JE: Does that help? Do we hiccup? There's so many other books that can talk about race relations in our day that are vetted, you know, in the black community that is still getting that scope and sequence and objective checked off the list. But just because we have to have this book or, again, you know, Tom Sawyer, you know, those types of books that, oh, they're classics, though, she's ruining a classic. Why do we, you know, are we getting rid of our whole American literature because a certain group of people, you know, those are the hot moments right there, you know? And you've got those teachers and those black students. Trust me, it's a wave of black students that start skipping their AP English or their English classes. And we wonder why they're not coming, why they don't feel comfortable. Let me guess, because the kid next to them is saying those words and, you know, murmuring it and pointing at it. And, you know, so those are the things we really need to have those discussions because, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of hot moments, you know? Yeah. It always hits. Yes.

0:23:02.6 AS: Yeah. Well, this conversation is so important and we will need to have you back on again soon.

0:23:07.4 JE: Would love to be back. In more depth.

0:23:11.2 AS: Can you give us like a key takeaway for our listeners? If they took away one thing from this conversation, what would that be?

0:23:18.7 JE: One takeaway I want them to know is when we're talking about cultural competency and seeing your BIPOC students where they are, remember, all of our parents are giving you their best, their best resource, their best is in their child. They're not leaving their best kids at home, you know, and you are entrusted with their best. Look to those families as a resource for help and support. Call them up for good news, not just the disciplinary ones. Trust and believe a good email saying, wow, I saw your child do this amazing thing that I didn't ask them to do. They just did it. Oh, they will be butter in your hands if something happens and they're like, oh, you know, something happened at school today and I just could use your backing and support. Well, yeah, I'll be right there.

0:24:13.3 VB: Because you see the good and the bad.

0:24:15.8 JE: You see the good and the bad and the learning. So, yeah, those parents are giving you their best. They're entrusting you with their best. So don't look at their child as the worst case scenario or, oh, they're from that particular, you know, ethnicity or, you know, what about that father or that parent that is incarcerated? They're giving you their best. I had the best parent-teacher conference with a parent in prison. They made the conference. And I had families across the street that didn't show up. So you can't tell me our assumptions are for the bad, you know? So those are the things where, you know, my biggest takeaway for all our educators and listeners, I am with you all. This is a very trying time, but we have done it before and we will do better. And so this is, you know, we can say, you know, same wine, different bottle. Honey, they've always been trying to erase and oppress and dismantle us.

0:25:15.3 AS: Yes.

0:25:16.2 JE: We're there for our kids. We have to keep it going. Yeah.

0:25:19.8 VB: Especially now. And Jebeh, if someone wanted to kind of contact you, what's the best way?

0:25:26.4 JE: Yes, I have a website, jebehedmonds.com, J-E-B-E-H-E-D-M-U-N-D-S.com. I've got lots of mini courses for educators and administrators that talk about empowering our BIPOC students, being a cultural, you know, ally and code switching 101. Our kids code switch. What does that mean? How does it look like, sound like, feel like? And I also have a podcast, The Cultural Curriculum Chat, where we interview BIPOC authors who have amazing books that should be in your classroom libraries as well. So, so excited for sure.

0:26:02.0 VB: We will put that in our show notes. Thank you for sharing your podcast because that is another, you know, it seems overwhelming, but it's like, whoops.

0:26:10.9 JE: Here's a resource. You don't have to do it on your own. That's amazing.

0:26:14.2 VB: Exactly, right. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. We will have you back on. There are so many things that we could talk, code switching, white privilege, like we can get into it.

0:26:22.7 JE: I'm here for it, Amanda and Vickie, anytime.

0:26:27.0 VB: We appreciate you. Thank you so much.

0:26:27.6 AS: Thank you so much. And to our listeners, we'll talk to you later.

0:26:32.5 VB: Bye-bye.

0:26:33.2 JE: Thank you.