Got a heavy topic today, but it's important and we hear about going far beyond the bell.

Let's get started, sir.

I will live with perseverance in the spirit of Taekwondo, courtesy for fellow students, integrity within myself, and to become a black belt leader.

Welcome to the Ata Nation podcast.

Instructors, students, parents, family members of Ata Nation, welcome back.

This is episode 136 of the Ata Nation podcast.

Can you believe that?

136?

I am super excited.

We've got a lot of great things going on this year.

We're going fortnightly is the word I'm using for the podcast because we've got an awesome other podcast for ATA licensees called Business beyond the Mat that we're doing with ATA headquarters.

Great guests on there as well.

So those come out twice a month.

This one comes out twice a month.

We've got lots going on at A Nation is busy.

Have you seen?

They're taking brand ambassador applications, so you might want to check that out.

Spring nationals is on its way.

It'll be here before you know it today as I record this Grandmaster Inho's birthday.

That's pretty exciting.

So all kinds of great things going on in ATA Nation.

Today's topic is a little heavier than we've.

We're used to.

I was reaching out all online, just looking for people and ideas for the podcast, you know, sharing ideas of.

Of people going beyond the belt, different topics, things like that.

And I was reached out by this young lady, and she talked about abuse and, and, you know, what we can do about that and things in that nature.

And I was like, you know what?

I think this is a really interesting topic that we don't, you know, we don't talk about it.

In the interview, you'll hear we talk about, you know, kind of destigmatizing some of the.

Our language and talking about it.

And I think that's an important thing.

So let's get right to our interview today.

Special guest interview, ATA Nation.

We are really excited to be back with you today.

And we have with us Jessica Z.

Epstein.

How are you today, ma'am?

I'm doing great, sir.

How are you?

Excellent.

Well, we connected online.

I was asking for some things about the podcast, and you mentioned a topic that I thought was something that I really thought was interesting, something that's good to talk about.

But before we kind of dive into that, I always like to start with, how'd you get into martial arts?

What's your martial arts story?

So my martial arts story started pretty young.

I got into A Japanese karate when I was about four years old.

I had done that for about two years.

Along that time is when my stepbrother and stepsister came to live with us.

And then we sort of stopped doing after school activities individually as much.

Kind of got into some group activities from there.

And then we restarted martial arts at around 10 with an ATA school in.

In our local area.

And where is that, where is that local area?

Hamilton, New Jersey, in New Jersey.

East coast.

Very good.

Um, so, and now where are you, where are you now in your martial arts career?

In my martial arts career now, it's definitely taken some turns through some different states.

I was in Texas for a period of time.

I moved back to New Jersey and I currently own a school in Flemington, New Jersey.

Excellent.

Congratulations.

How long have you had that school?

About 10 years.

Oh, nice.

Awesome.

Cool.

Yes.

And who, who are you training under these days?

Chief Master Ramundi.

Oh, fantastic.

So you get some, some cuts with the sword.

Definitely learn a thing or two for sure.

Yes, ma'am.

Definitely.

Well, you know what I thought was an interesting topic, something that is, you know, a heavy topic for people, is the idea of, you know, abuse, neglect, these kind of things in people's past.

But something about martial arts often can be a.

A healing thing.

There are often times where, you know, what, you know, people use it incorrectly or whatnot.

But you brought up this topic and it's in your history.

Yes, but you've come to use martial arts as a vehicle for healing and to help other people as well.

So can you give us a little background on kind of how what the experience was for you and then how martial arts was a part of that moving forward?

Okay.

So as a child, I mentioned my stepbrother and stepsister came to live with us a little bit later in life.

I also have two younger siblings as well.

So I come from a big family and with that is involves certain dramas and with having a step parent and being from that time period, abuse was quite prevalent in our household.

And it definitely wasn't something that was made to feel okay even through training in martial arts.

Right.

We do punches and kicks every day, but it's pretty clear that that's supposed to be kept in the dojang, not, you know, in your living room, you know, So I definitely had a little bit taught in me to not fight back to a degree.

And it came through, you know, a couple years of training and receiving my black belt, that I was kind of able to stand up for myself and my siblings and got us out of that sort of situation, becoming a leader within my studio definitely helped me to build some of that confidence that I definitely was not building in my home setting.

And I think sometimes as instructors, we tend to like to believe the world is this place where they're getting the support that somebody needs at home.

And sometimes they're really not.

And sometimes we are the only safe place for them to come.

And for me, that was definitely my experience through my ATA school.

Okay, so I've got a couple of questions on this.

First of all, let me you personally.

So I took some training from a gentleman named Bill Kip.

Fantastic martial arts, great self defense.

His was not much martial arts.

It was mostly just a self defense thing.

And he learned to become a very passive individual because he was beat up a lot by a sibling when he was little.

He got, you know, he would just cower under that and, and came, you know, became a marine, which then made him like flip the other way.

So he went from being super passive, being super aggressive, and then found this way of just being assertive and understanding that for you, did you find yourself going real passive, real aggressive?

Did, did going into martial arts like you said, becoming a leader help you find a balance there at all?

Or is it.

Obviously martial arts is not a fix all, you know, Absolutely.

You're not going to go through trauma and things like that and martial arts to be able to fix everything, but it can be a tool in the tool in the toolbox.

So for you, how did that work out?

I certainly see myself growing through martial arts.

I've been a part of the tournament circuit for, you know, 15 years of my youth from 10 to 25, and somebody's bound to change quite a bit through that.

And then stepping into a role of a school owner and just having different responsibilities that way has definitely made me more of a passive person when it comes to how I handle specific situations.

Because I also see that being the passionate person that I am because I truly care about what I do and the people around me and sometimes that can really get in the way.

I feel that people who have gone through some of that trauma, perhaps that shows up when you're feeling so passionate, you know, and you, you're perhaps communicating not the correct way, but you know, learning the legacy tools and tricks through teaching and things of that nature.

It's definitely assisted me in being able to keep myself far away, hopefully from the aggressive path.

Although my extreme martial art days might prove otherwise.

Well, channeled in the right way.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

Okay, so I instructors and even fellow classmates say, we're in these schools with other kids, other adults, other families.

You know, we're surrounded by this.

And we want our, like you said, the, the school to be a community of people who are supporting each other.

Right.

How.

What are some things that.

Let's start from like the, the students, like I'm another student with other students in class, not instructor.

If I'm just seeing a kid, you know, and they're down, what are maybe some signs that I can be looking at or some.

And some things that I can do then as an individual to just help support somebody who might be going through, you know, some real not great things at home.

I think it's definitely important for us to remember and for students to remember as we step onto the mat.

And black belt attitude is everything.

You know, a black belt attitude might look different for everyone.

And if somebody's experiencing something and they're not, you know, maybe as smiley or happy or as cheerful or encouraging as perhaps, you know, you expect somebody to be in a martial art class, I think it's just important to be allowing them to show up the way that they are showing up and let them absorb that culture and eventually, you know, just being around that sort of culture, not expecting them to partake in a high level right away, you know, just being okay with giving somebody a high five that day, that maybe they're not going to smile at you, that's okay, you know, it's, it's going to build and maybe next time they'll give you a high five and still there'll be no smile.

And time after that, perhaps, you know, that's when you start to build those relationships.

Gotcha.

What about from the instructor side?

You know, obviously we have, you know, ATA instructors go through a safe support.

So we, we are, you know, mandatory reporters.

Need to make sure that we are, you know, enforcing the, the right way to do things at our schools, you know, reporting things.

If we think there are issues, what are some things that we need to be thinking about, you know, in this whole realm?

Just because it's one thing to take a course, you see an online thing, but it's a different thing to be talking to somebody who's gone through situations like that.

I think something to be mindful of is what happens after a report is made, what happens after even proof of an incident occurs.

And it's not.

There's no fairy tale endings.

Nobody's magically rescued and sent to a place where everything gets better.

Right.

These are wonderful that, you know, you Trusted.

And you love this, these people, you know, and for a child to go through that, I've witnessed this a couple times throughout my years of teaching.

I've had students who have gone through the foster system and end up in our studio and just hearing them share their experiences later as leaders throughout our legacy program.

Just like how was it when you grew up and when you, when we talk about how much our parents are supposed to support us, you know, what feelings does that spark?

And let's make sure that we're holding space for a different experience and understanding that we're here to support the individual that's going through that.

And that looks very different for everybody.

And of course we have rules and regulations that we're supposed to follow.

That doesn't always help us deal with things on a day to day when, you know, you have two parents who have gone to court and have restraining orders, but you know, they're both there to support their child through martial arts.

You know, navigating those sort of processes is different.

And I do have some experience through that, but I've definitely spoken to a lot of people outside of martial arts to kind of gain some knowledge on how to best proceed through that as a neutral party.

Right.

Because you cannot be, you know, you're not guilty or you're innocent until proven guilty.

Right.

So that's how we have to operate.

And a child, no matter what, I mean, I'm sure you can speak to this, you know, whether, whether a parent is, you know, doing the things they should be doing or not doing the things they should be doing, being, you know, abusive or being supportive, there's a bond there, no matter what.

You know, I mean, you're a parent of the, of the kid.

So just, you know, labeling a parent as the bad guy is not necessarily helpful because they're still the parent of the kid.

And I think that's why it's important.

Like how do we support our parents?

Right.

Even if they're not involved in martial arts, which we would love, every family that kicks together, sticks together.

But if they're not involved, how can we make them feel supported in either way?

You know, just as we support you as the parent supporting the student.

So do you have any, any tips for.

So if I, if I am in a situation where I have, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's not abuse, but it's just a, a bad home situation.

There's fighting parents and then there's, there's a divorce and whatever.

What are some practical steps that I might Be able to take in reaching out to each parent to be a neutral party.

What are some things that might help as an instructor or even another parent who is, you know, sitting there, you know, their kids are in the same martial arts class.

What are some things that I might be able to do?

I think the, it's a really hard position to be in because you want to be neutral as the school owner.

Where if I was talking to parents, you know, I would say support who you want to support and be as friendly, you know, as, as possible.

Right.

And that's how you build community.

But then you don't want to make the other parent feel alienated either.

I definitely have many parents who have gone through divorce and I say we just try to make sure that they know if there's any financial hardships.

As far as separating things.

We try to be very amenable of in situations like that.

Right.

Splitting billing or sending all of the billing information, any, you know, workshops, purchased or even pro shop items.

Right.

For parents to split that.

As far as school ownership goes, that's really how we can provide a more inclusive situation for them so they don't feel alienated.

Right.

Not necessarily having the same home situation as everyone else.

And then we often, you know, with the day and age, you know, we try not to say mom and dad even.

We don't even say parents sometimes we just say your guardian, you know, because we even have students who, even though they have mom and dad, they also deal with an au pair or something like that throughout the day and that is definitely their guardian during that time and they're entrusted in them.

So.

And I've dealt with different situations where people have been unhappy with perhaps how an au pair has dealt with their child.

And you know, just everybody has their own opinions on how they want to raise their children.

And we try to be as inclusive as possible and allow for diversity in all of those ways.

Great.

And now.

So as a person who has, has gone through and, and, and dealt with these kind of situations, you know, martial arts has been very beneficial for you in doing that.

What would you say to a parent who is, you know, when these things happen, lots of stuff comes up and, and it's easy to pull a kid out of martial arts because it's just another thing that's going on.

Yeah.

But so often that community can be one of the, the things that is not changing in a kid's life.

What would you say to a parent or to people around a kid who, who, you know, they're like, you Know, I just don't know.

It's hard to get the kid to go to class because you know, well, your things are crazy at home, obviously.

So what advice would you give them?

Consistency is very important.

And when you don't have a parent that's able to provide that and a student is still interested in training, it's very important to just discuss, you know, hey, you know, what was the original reason you wanted to do martial arts?

That hasn't changed, right?

Like, even if your home situation has changed, that hasn't changed.

And do you want to waver on those goals for your child?

You know, a lot of times I feel like as adults and teach from teaching children through adults, I see adults struggle with this a little bit more.

Is we always have an excuse or a reason why we can't get the job done.

And that's just not built into most children, right.

That, that comes later.

And I feel like martial arts is a great way to break through barriers of that nature.

You know, we create a challenge for them to be able to break through.

And I think it's important to tell that parent that it's okay to ask for help and it's okay.

It's okay to admit like no parent is doing it perfectly and nobody is without.

Nobody should be judging anybody.

You know, just because you reach out for help in that way, I don't feel like I would hope they understand that we're not here to judge.

We're here to provide the best service for, for the student experience.

And for me that's really goes into, you know, it.

There is a financial aspect to it as well.

So I know that there are lots of people who work with different non profits and things of that nature.

And I think that's very beneficial as well.

Depending on where you're located and what things are available to you.

That's great.

Well, for a lot of this is, it's such a tough topic for, for people, you know, it's just thinking about the idea that a child is abused and, and, and these things aren't.

It's just so hard for people and it's just something we don't want to think about.

But.

Right.

It's out there, you know, it.

I think it's important to break the stigma around it.

It isn't always abuse, right.

Sometimes I'm sure you've had a moment of anger, right?

And we all react in different ways.

Sometimes we shut down, sometimes we lash out verbally or physically.

And I think that's normal.

You know, like I get to send all the students I teach home to their parents every night and come home to my dog.

If I had to come home to students every night, I could imagine my threshold of patience changing.

And that's no excuse for any situation.

However, it's okay to talk about.

We all have our limits, and once we reach those limits, it's okay to ask for help.

So that's a great, that's a great tip, you know, breaking the stigma and making it okay to ask for help.

And I think a martial arts school, especially our ATA schools, should be a place where a kid can ask for help, a parent can ask for help.

Community of people that is, you know, helping to build up the individual and the students there.

So before we, before we wrap up any, what message would you like at Nation?

Whether it's the students, instructors, parents to, to just learn to know from your experience.

When you see that kid struggling and you think that they're a jerk, you think that they're disrespectful, you think that they're.

Find out what's happening at home and don't take the first answer that you hear.

You know, keep asking questions because there's a reason why everybody acts the way that they are acting.

And if we all just had a little compassion or empathy for that and dug a little deeper, especially for the children, you know, that can't stick up for themselves all the time, I think that's important for everyone.

So that's excellent.

I recently have been going through Melody Johnson's pediatric ninja specialists.

A lot of things in there that are really just great to learn about kids brains and raising kids and things like that.

But, you know, us wanting to be, we need to be the heroes for kids, you know, we need to be the ones that are, you know, helping grow them in the right way.

So I think your advice there of making sure that you're, you're not judging that kid when he's come in and he's, he's grumpy and he's angry and he, he's defiant to you because there might, you know, there might be some real reasons behind that.

They're usually.

Yeah, yes, absolutely.

Well, ma'am, I really appreciate your time and your willingness to talk about this subject and use your life experience to help others out there.

I mean that, you know, we talk about going beyond the belt that is most certainly going beyond the belt to share and to help other people.

We thank you so much.

I appreciate the time.

Thank you.

Well, we want to thank Ms.

Epstein for her time today.

And for her vulnerability and just all of, you know, sharing that experience with us.

I think it's a great topic to make sure that we're thinking about it more often.

Our ATA licensees are really amazing.

We go through the SafeSport training, some other trainings to make sure that we are aware of these things.

But for every student and parent and family member out there to, to make sure that we're thinking about this every once in a while.

You know, I think it's really easy for us to, to sit and watch a class and be like, why is that kid not listening?

He should have to do push ups or why is that kid and you know, making sure that we're, we're thinking through that a little bit more and like, what else could be going on here?

How can I help support this family?

How, how can I help support this person more?

You know, just the idea of making sure that your child or you, if you're training class, you know, see if somebody's struggling and encourage them and just say, hey, when's your next class?

I can't wait to see you in your next class.

So that they continue in that environment of being around people who will help build them up.

You know, that alone is a huge way we can go beyond the bells.

And that's what we want to do.

We want to be champions beyond the bell.

So I challenge you this week to go out and do that.

Find somebody in class that you're just going to be like, hey, when's your next class?

I want to see at your next class.

You testing this time?

I'm testing this time.

Let's be testing buddies.

Make sure we get to testing and know our material together.

Partner with somebody that you're not maybe usually apt to partner with for this cycle or for, you know, whatever you're working on.

So I think that would be an amazing thing for all of us to do to go beyond the belt with other people in our classes.

Let's check something out.

Listener feedback.

So, ladies and gentlemen, I need some feedback from you guys, okay?

I got this interview today from a Facebook post that we posted.

I know a lot of you guys might not be on Facebook because, you know, the Facebook is for old people like me.

But would you do me a favor and send us a message?

Instagram.

You can DM us on Instagram.

You know, send us a message on, you know, Facebook.

If you're an old person like me, maybe I'll put some YouTube shorts out.

I don't know.

We're on YouTube.

ATAs official YouTube page.

You can watch these episodes right there.

Your podcasting app.

If you listen on Spotify, you can leave comments on there.

I would love to hear from you.

Do you have a story about going beyond the belt or somebody that you would like to hear from?

An ATA master instructor that is just your hero that you'd love to hear from?

Let us know because I would be more than happy to interview them and get their story out because we want to inspire you to go beyond the belt.

I think that's going to wrap us up for episode number 1 36.

I'm looking forward to seeing you guys, hearing you guys, talking to you guys at the next tournament and seeing who you suggest to be on the next episode.

Until then, get out there.

Go beyond the bells.

Thanks for listening to another episode of the ATA Nation podcast.

Be sure to subscribe and share with your ATA family secret part.

Hey, I we've been putting these on YouTube, but it's just a the straight video.

I know we need to do some cool motion graphics and stuff like that and then maybe put some YouTube shorts up or YouTube.

What do they.

What do they call them?

Shorts?

I don't know.

You know what makes me sad?

I used to be a cool person who knew all about the latest tech and stuff and I still do in some ways.

But man, some of the social media I'm just not as up to date with as I used to be.

I was talking with some of my students, we're doing a little internship on some content creation, some other stuff, and the platforms they use all the time are just different than what I used.

But help us get the information out here about the ATA Nation podcast because we want to just continue to grow, inspire, educate, entertain all of you out there in ATA Nation.

So we'll talk soon.

Take care.