There is so much out there to get mad about. Social injustices, class warfare, continued

colonization, the act of destruction of our planet by those focused on profits and not

people. We can find it overwhelming at times. The good news is there are equally as many,

if not more, stories of people coming together and rising up against the forces at play. So

the creators of Blueprints of Disruption have added a new weekly segment, Ravel Rants, where

we will unpack the stories that have us most riled up, share calls to action, and most importantly,

celebrate resistance. All right, Jeremy, I don't think there's an audience member that doesn't

know who you are. You've been on the show before, but just in case, can you introduce yourself,

please? My name is Jeremy Appel. I am an independent Edmonton based journalist and podcaster and

a forthcoming author. I should probably plug that because I think that's a difference between

last time I was on. I've booked about Jason Kenney coming out in February. You should read

it when it's out and pre-order it now. You can do that on the publisher Dundurn's website.

There's a shop, you go the page of the book and there's a shop local tab and you hit it

and you put in your postal code and it shows you an independent bookstore nearby that you

can preorder it from. I should probably save that for the end, but. Don't worry about it.

I mean, let's talk. I've seen you accused of promoting Jason Kenny. So just to be clear,

it's not a, I don't imagine you spend a whole lot of time praising. Jason Kenney in there,

you're going to scare the audience. No, there is very little praise in that book. But yeah,

I mean, I don't know. I think my editor did a good job sort of toning it down at certain

at certain points. So it's not just like an outright hit job, I guess you could say. But

obviously, if you like Jason Kenney or if you're to the right of him, you're probably going

to hate it. It comes out on February 6. We'll link people to it in the. The show notes. Yeah,

which is a long time from now. But yeah, no, the book publishing world is weird. I think

it's just because publishers like juggling like hundreds of like different titles at any given

time. So they need time to like work on all of them. Also, you don't want to like compete

with the release of Britney Spears' next memoir or anything like that, right? You got to space

that shit out. But we'll call you back on the show for sure to get the more unhinged version.

Whatever fell to the cutting room floor you can bring and share with us. Yeah, a couple

of pages of speculation about his personal life. I'm sure it's juicy. Yeah. Well, I cut it.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. Well, we'll talk about it. We'll cross that bridge when we get

there. We do. We got a bit off topic because although you talk about a lot of interesting

things, I reached out to you to talk about something a lot more serious. And that is really what

it's been like for you, for Jeremy, as an independent journalist, I feel like that tag was important

to make at the beginning because people are right frustrated right now with what they're

reading. And I see you out there constantly kind of combating the propaganda machine and

the disinformation. And I wanted to call you in to get your take on all that and on what

Canadian politics, how that's gonna play into it, but also to check in with you to see how

you're dealing. You've got a unique position, both as a Jewish person and a journalist. And

those are, it's difficult times for both right now, is it not? Mm hmm. Yeah. Thank you for

checking in on your Jewish friend as, you know, all the celebs are saying you should do. But

no, it has been, you know, I would be lying if I said that it wasn't a very emotionally

exhausting time for myself. I don't think that's anything compared to what, you know, Palestinian

and Arab and Muslim people are going through now. But I mean, still it has been very distressing.

I mean, first with the attacks on October 7th, as someone who has been my entire adult life,

a critic of the state of Israel and supporter of Palestinian human rights, it was really

hard to I guess reconcile that with the sheer horror of the Hamas attacks on Israel on October

7th. And of course, we still don't have an entirely clear picture of what happened. But either

way, a lot of Israelis were killed, right? More than on any other day.

on the day since the Holocaust. It's like gross emotional manipulation, but it's also technically

true, right? And so that, you know, did I, I mean, I have family in Israel. I like them,

I care about them. I don't agree with their, you know, political views, but, you know, I

certainly don't wish them harm. And, you know, good friend of my parents had a niece who was

killed. And so there's that, but ever, but everyone knew what was going to come next. Right. In

response to the attacks. Yeah. And of course the attacks weren't, they didn't just come

out of nowhere. They were in response to decades of apartheid and ethnic cleansing and, you

know, siege on Gaza. And but you know, again, the Israel only has one strategy for dealing

with the Palestinians, and that's using.

group force to respond to any acts of violence against Israeli civilians, to do at least 10

times worse to them what was done to us, quote unquote. As that week after went on in the

body count of Palestinians starting to exceed Israelis, it was like, okay. like October 7th

is, you know, it pills in comparison to what we're seeing in Gaza now. And, you know, because

I, you know, I know a lot of pro-Israel people from my youth who I, you know, follow on Instagram.

You know, a few of them I'm still friends with, you know, so we go way back and like well-intentioned

people, they just think in a certain box. They've been taught to think in where it's like us

against the world and Israel is just an extension of the Jewish people. And that's been really

distressing for me to see, to see people I know from when I was a kid just outright calling

for genocide, frankly. Yeah, that's been tough. And just also seeing them say, Oh, well, if

you didn't have anything to say about October 7, then why are you criticizing Israel? And

it's like people have lots of things to say about October 7. You know, and I certainly

don't expect Palestinian people to immediately rush to denounce it when I mean what Hamas

did on October 7th is what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for decades. Like even

the most grisliest, unconfirmed details like cutting a pregnant woman open and pulling the

fetus out and then killing them. I mean, that is what Israel oversaw in the, you know, Sabrash

Tila massacre in 1982, the who massacred almost 2000 Palestinians in like two days while the

Israelis stood guard, did that. Right. Talk about mass rapes. I mean,

that, you know, and you read accounts of the Nakba. I mean, the Israelis did all these things,

you know, putting babies in ovens, which again, appears to not have actually happened, which

I mean, it sounded really fake when I heard about it. But because then of course, all the

I'll design this propagandists were like, oh my god, this is literally the Holocaust. And

I mean, if if, you know, Palestinians breaking over their concentration camp in Gaza and committing

these atrocities is the Holocaust, then what what do you call what Israel is doing in Gaza,

right? And again, it's this mentality that frames us perpetually as us as in Jewish people as

victims who are only ever responding to like external threats. And it makes it hard to have

any sort of compassion. towards those we commit violence against. I feel like a lot of people,

your average people, understand the hypocrisy that's at play. But the narratives that you're

talking about, everyone talks about how the battle's going, right? We like to encourage

ourselves and say, you know, we're winning this narrative, people are listening, you know,

they're understanding the reality. But sometimes that's hard to see when... like really top-down

messaging is coming out that includes these like unverified claims you're talking about,

people that refuse to take them down, some notable, you know, media heads. We won't note them though,

but how does that perpetuate in such a level that we're seeing right now, even when folks

can see that they're using unreliable sources, that they are... You know the whole Biden thing

where he gets in front of his people and says he looked at photographs of beheaded babies

and Walks it back a couple days later But yet people are still coming at us with the Secretary

of State Blink in his words as though their bond right as though there's some sort of Yeah,

the Secretary of State United States, why would he lie? It's just like, yeah, no secretary

of state has ever lied. No. Yeah. But like, no, you should know better are throwing this

guy's quotes at me as evidence, as receipts of something. And I am just my mind just explodes.

I'm going, where did you come from? What happened to you? But just to be clear, actually, it

wasn't. a couple days later that the White House walked back Biden saying that he saw pictures

of the headed babies. It was immediately after the press conference when reporters reached

out to the White House to be like, did he actually saw pictures? And they were like, no, he didn't.

He read about it in media Netanyahu told him. And yeah, I mean, there's a I've never seen

a greater gap between what actual people think. And what our government is saying. And I mean,

the NDP, because of pressure, have gotten to a good position on this, I think, a reasonable

position. You know, I really had to swallow a pill there to nod along with you. They have,

they have, but it's just a letter. I'm still not satisfied, but. And they're not in, they're

not in, they're not in, I mean, they're propping up liberal government, but they're not gonna

make the government fall over this. So yeah, I mean, but I mean, when you look at states,

I mean, Bernie Sanders will not say the word ceasefire. He can't do it. I mean, that is

so distressing. And I mean, you have like 10 people in Congress, literally 10 people out

of nearly 500 who are being reasonable. It can be really discouraging in seeing how the media

often frames this conflict, whereas it started on October 7th, right? Only it starts whenever

Israel's attacked, right? But what happens before that, what leads up to the attack context doesn't

matter, right? And so obviously that framing is problematic, but you are seeing sort of,

I think, punctures in that narrative. You're seeing a lot more. not enough. And I know there

are many stories of Palestinian experts having their interviews canceled and all sorts of

injustices on that level. But there are, I think, more Palestinian voices being included in media

narratives. And because you saw, I remember in 2021, there like the amount of support for

Palestine right coming a year after like George Floyd in this sort of really mainstreaming

of Black Lives Matter. I remember thinking wow like there's really been a shift in narrative

this time and I think that's true this time as well like sort of building on that but of

course because of the October 7th attacks. that I think led to this gap between what people

in the streets are saying and how they're perceiving this and people in positions of power that

wasn't as clear in 2021. But this effort to frame it as Israel's 9-11 I mean, that works

on some people, but a lot of people, it's like, yeah, and they're responding to it. Like the

US responded to 9-11, which we can all see now wasn't the appropriate response. And I remember

I was arguing with this Israeli, like quasi-Israeli government propagandist, like he works for

some like think tank that's like funded by these. You know what I mean? Like he doesn't work

for the Israeli government, but he does. And I was like, oh yeah, remind me what happened

after 9-11. Like, how'd that go? And he's like, oh, remind me, what would the world be like

if Al-Qaeda wasn't taken out? And it's like, well, I guess we wouldn't be supporting them

in Syria, you know, there wouldn't be ISIS, you know, millions of people would be alive.

It's like we're experiencing like this real in right in front of us, revisionist history

happening like we're watching people shift their positions from like 10 years ago. They just

right in front of us, real, real blatant, like as though it's not actually happening. And

like you talk about like the bottom, you know, and what the masses think, what most people

think and then the people of power. But even the people in the power. people in power are

fractured, right? Like Trudeau's out of step with a lot of his cabinet. The NDP, you know,

should have had a clear position. Their members had kind of given them a clear position from

the onset. They could have been on the right side, but it was really, really top decision

makers and Biden's rumored to be completely ignoring his advisors. And I wonder if that's

going to be disastrous for these politicians down the road as well. to hold on to dig into

this position for so long when so many people around you are falling away from it. I can

only imagine there's going to be blowback. And I feel like the conservatives here in Canada

are just, you know, you've got your usual suspects pumping out the usual trash, but generally

they're kind of laying low here as the liberals get painted as supporters of genocide. You

got any predictions in terms of Canadian politics and- any rightful blowback that folks will

face, like Biden in particular or Trudeau? Well, in terms of Biden, I mean, you've seen his

poll numbers among Arab Americans have absolutely. Been decimated in rightfully so now, interesting,

you look at that poll, it's like a lot of Arab Americans are thinking of voting for Trump

or RFK. And I found. And in like not a lot for Cornel West, which is interesting, because

of course, Trump is the same as Biden on this issue. Rhetorically, you know, he wouldn't

be advocating for any sort of restraint like Biden is like claims to be, but isn't in fact.

So I think he would be about the same in our case. Worse. I mean, you know, I mean, after

he, you know. on Twitter praised Roger Waters and got blowback for it. He just went like

full Likudnik. And so it's interesting. I can't believe we're still even talking about him.

I wish he would just fade into obscurity. You know, I do think he will help Biden. Like if

we're talking about like, obviously stealing votes isn't a thing. Like you're not entitled,

no one's entitled to anyone's votes. But I do think people would otherwise vote for Trump

would probably be more likely to vote for RFK than people would otherwise vote for Biden.

But yeah, I mean, I don't know how Biden's gonna win Michigan now. I mean, there are a lot of

Arabs and Muslims in Michigan and you know, Rashia Tlaib, of course, very popular congressperson,

probably the only, like, it wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say she's the only good.

I think that's what's left with down there. Yeah, no. And Cori Bush, and Cori Bush.

You know, I mean, she's saying, yeah, I'm not going to support him. And that I think that

carries a lot of weight among like working class people in Detroit and, of course, Arabs and

Muslims here in Canada. It will be I don't know. I mean, because on the one hand, obviously,

Canada doesn't have the same amount of power to put a stop to this as the United States

does, right? We aren't directly funding the Israeli military in the same way that the United

States is. Of course, we fund the Palestinian Authority directly, which exists to protect

Israelis from Palestinians, in the West Bank at least. where they're nominally in power.

And we have a free trade agreement with Israel. I mean, so we do have leverage and anyone who

says we don't in that the US is also powerless is lying. We absolutely do have leverage over

Israel. Are we gonna use it? No. But it will be interesting to see And, you know, Trudeau's

been calling for a humanitarian pause for, I don't know, a week or two now, which is, I

mean, useless. But it'll be interesting to see if the pressure on him works, right? I mean,

you have, you know, I think a couple dozen liberal MPs calling for a ceasefire now. offices were

occupied last week, including Randy Boisnoe here in Edmonton. And I mean, it worked with

the NDP. I mean, after, you know, Jenny Kwan and Jagmeet Singh and Randall Garrison's offices

were occupied, the NDP came out and were like, I mean, they already supported ceasefire, but

they went beyond that saying, we need to cut off arms sales to Israel. We need to end the

siege of Gaza. We write like you mentioned, like that requires a far less hard commitment

from the NDP, right? They now just have to issue a letter, show all their signatures on social

media. And it seems like they think their job is done. And, you know, I understand your point

earlier about they don't hold much leverage over the liberals, although that is their marketing

scheme, right? Like they take credit for everything the liberals do because of the influence that

they wield. And then they cry. like that they don't have any, but I'm so disappointed in

the MPs that exist there that are persons that can do a lot of things to show what side they're

on. Right? They've completely lost their voice. They can occupy offices. They can help lead

actions. There's nothing preventing them from doing this except fear of reprisal, but that's

not stopping everybody else out here. sticking their neck out for Palestine. Right. And these

folks have made immense connections. Many of them are guaranteed pensions and still won't

stick their neck out at this point. And that's why, again, I'm not satisfied with that letter,

even though they do take a really good position. It goes beyond the ceasefire. And the fact

that we get really excited that people are calling for just a ceasefire at this point is really

frustrating. But I know we have to get what we can get. But, you know, but yeah, I mean,

a lot of liberal MPs are coming because they're listening to their constituents who are saying,

you know, ceasefire is the bare minimum. Right. Because we have a ceasefire and also, you know,

release the hostages on them. We're just back to the status quo before October 7. Right.

And the status quo before October 7 led to October 7 and led to what we're seeing Gaza now. So

obviously we need to go beyond that. And it is good to see the NDP say that, but are they

going to do anything about it? Of course not. I interviewed Heather McPherson, who's actually

my MP. And I like Heather. I don't agree with her on everything, but I think she has her

heart in the right place. And yeah, I interviewed her on the Forgotten Corner with my cohost,

Scott Schmidt, and we talked about Ukraine a bunch. and about Palestine. And I was like,

when it comes to Ukraine, we're saying not only should we send weapons to Ukraine, but we need

to send as many weapons to Ukraine as they're asking us for, right? That's her position.

Now on Palestine, she's saying, no, we need to stop the violence, whether it's from Israel

or the Palestinians, and we need to put pressure on Israel as a more powerful party. But, you

know, I mean, there's a clear cognitive dis and obviously Ukraine and Palestine aren't

the exact same. There are similarities and differences with the conflict in Ukraine. But she didn't

she didn't really have an answer. She was like, look, we're not perfect. Like she said that

she's like, look, we're not perfectly consistent. I get that. But we're the best you have or

something like that, which is on the one hand is very cynical. But on the other hand, it

was like refreshingly honest for her to be like, yeah, we're not like there, you know, that

she didn't have a good answer. And she acknowledged that. So I think that's where a lot of the

personal attacks come from online, where you kind of get to this point in the argument where

there is no defending it. Right. There is no real explanation as to why not that you can

say out loud to why Palestine would be denied the right to arm resistance. And we arm. Ukraine

to the teeth, right? Because there really is no end to it. It has to stop there. Then it

denigrates to calling absolutely everybody who speaks against Israel an anti-Semite, or the

way that folks come after people like Fred Hahn and Sarah Gemma. And then when you come back

and say, give me the quote, what upset you the most? What was the anti-Semitic line in her

statement or an action she took? then it just degrades from there. There is no receipts or,

you know, there is no mass protests in favor of Israel, because, I mean, those signs would

be really hard to make. It's really hard to justify that. And so, at least she is being

refreshingly honest rather than trying to scramble to an answer to that, because, yeah, there

really is no answer that you could say other than colonialism, right? We support. what Israel's

doing because that is a model that we set for them. That's a model that we have followed

before. Palestinians don't have the right to arm resistance because that would not work

well for us. That is not part of our history, you know, that is not something that they recognize

as being valid. Well, I think it's important though to distinguish when we're talking about

Palestinian right to arm resistance that it isn't absolute like a lot of what Hamas did

on October 7th, I don't think would fall under the category of legitimate armed resistance?

No, but nobody would dream of sending weapons to Palestine. Like if you ask Canadian Parliament,

can we offer a $32 million package for armored tanks for Palestinians to defend themselves

in the West Bank as settlers try to take their town? Right? Illegally, right now and all year,

it's been on the increase, right? We would never think to allow... supplied them with anything

to defend themselves. So not so much like justifying every horrible act that an armed extension

of people commits, but even the idea that they could, even the idea of firing a rocket is

so abhorrent, right? Like that is something that will erase the occupation in the discussion.

Yeah, but they fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel. And it's like, well, I can't figure

out what would be acceptable then. Like what only precision guided weapons only, you know,

like it just becomes such an obvious hypocritical position that, you know, they can't say without

saying either they're completely racist or pro-Zionist. So yeah, no, it's definitely not to condone

any form of resistance in the same way that nobody condones the most horrible things the

US has committed in their war, right? Even though Americans would defend the war and their troops

and all of that, they would still acknowledge the things that had happened. the civilian

casualties, the, what do they call it? Collateral damage is not wanted, is not something to celebrate,

you know? So, but yeah, there's just completely different standards when we come into this

discussion. I wanna shift a little bit to your role as a journalist now and that must be difficult

to watch, you know, the numbers, the same as we've seen. a higher death rate of children

in Gaza than like armed conflict over the last few years. That is the same with the amount

of journalists that we've lost in this conflict. If that's even an adequate word for what's

happening. Where it's hard to dispute at this point that the IDF is targeting Al Jazeera

journalists and other journalists, but there are still people online that are saying otherwise.

Yeah, like NATO Joe. Who's we don't like to talk about Joe on this program, but that's

exactly who I'm talking about. You got it. Yeah. Yeah, of course. And he's doing his Oh, I left

the left arc. And I mean, you know, I'm good for him on becoming a national post columnist.

I hope it pays well. But. Yeah, I mean, again, we're seeing exactly what's happening. And

there's just all these figures in Canadian media, not to mention government, telling us that

it's not what it looks like. It's actually the opposite of what it looks like. That the grossest

talking point for me is that, oh, no, Palestinians are suffering under Hamas. We're helping Palestinians

by... flattening their neighborhoods. And then when you ask, OK, well, once this is all done,

do you expect a Palestinian person who's lost their entire family to be more, have a more

favorable disposition towards Israel or less, they say, oh, that doesn't matter. We need

to destroy him. And it's like, but you just said that you support Palestinians. And it's

just so phony. It's such a phony talking point. And again, No one outside of these like media

circles believes this shit. And in people who like. Care about what these pundits have to

say, and, you know, and there's a generational divide, too. There's a very clear generational

divide, like our parents generation, which came right after the Holocaust, you know, and they

saw sort of Israel as this great redemption narrative and just refused to believe it's

anything. But. That. Um, but I think again, among younger people, especially people younger

than ourselves, it's like, how do you justify this? Like why, why is the Holocaust? Why are

the Palestinians being scapegoated for the Holocaust? Um, and, you know, people saying that, oh,

October 7th was like a second Holocaust. It's like, well, if killing 1400 people, largely

civilians, though, again, we don't know the total tally, but a lot of them were clearly

civilians, then what is killing 9,000 and growing people? And again, I mean, Israel's not even,

in past conflicts, I think Israel put a lot more emphasis on the fact that, oh, we're trying

so hard to limit civilian casualties, but they just keep getting in the way. Human shields.

Yeah, now it's just like, okay, we need a million of you to in one of the most densely populated

places on Earth to locate to relocate to half of it, making it. I mean, I would assume that

would that if Israel does wipe out northern Gaza and creates this like security buffer

and confines everyone to southern Gaza, unless they flee elsewhere. which by the way they

currently aren't allowed to do even if they want to. I mean that would make it, I suspect

by far the most densely populated place on Earth, but I don't have the statistics in front of

me. But just framing this, which is an act of ethnic cleansing, you're telling a million

people to leave their homes and they're not going to have anything left when this is done.

And say in trying to pressure Egypt into resettling them. And the Western nations will play a role

in that too, in hiding their involvement, coming out looking like roses by taking in refugees

or aiding in the resettlement. Yeah, well, I don't know if you... The liberals will be like,

yay. I don't know if you saw that piece in 972 Mag, which is a great Israeli-Palestinian publication

that I think your listeners should read. I mean, that is the plan, right? The the Israeli intelligence

ministry, which the piece notes, isn't like a decision making body and sort of. Make suggestions

that are aren't.

Taken up by the government in the military was like, yeah, we need to relocate all of Gaza

to the Sinai or. them resettled elsewhere. And yeah, and we're gonna ask that and we're gonna

present it as we're doing them a favor. We're trying to limit civilian casualties by pushing

them elsewhere. And you know, people, you know, otherwise people who are like, generally quite

reasonable on this subject that I've spoken to in our critical of Israel are like, yeah,

well, but That's not the official policy of the Israeli government. It's just this one

ministry making suggestions. But the first part of that plan has already been implemented,

which is clearing out northern Gaza, right? Reducing Gaza City to rubble, which is now,

it seems to be what they're sending Israeli soldiers to do and just shoot anything. And

yeah, I mean, more people. You know, the Sebernicka massacre in the 1990s, the Serbia committed

against Bosnian Muslims killed 8,000 people. And now we're at 9,000 people in Gaza. I mean,

by the time this episode is out, I don't recall what your sort of turnaround is. But pretty

quick, I mean, it will probably be 10,000, right? And no one's doing anything. I mean, I shouldn't

say Western because it's one thing, you know, just to say, you know, it's easy to say, oh,

Western governments aren't doing anything to stop it. It's more it's worse than that. That

the United States is actively abetting it. I mean, they just approved three point five billion

dollars for Israel. That has no congressional oversight or anything. Right. Just like giving

them money with like. No, like I only want to say no strings attached because USA to Israel

already has no strings attached. But this is like. Well, especially when you position it

amongst what's happening right now, like how can you at the same time ask for restraint

and then give them unconditional funds? Right. Yeah. And Canada too. I'm looking into this.

Actually, I'm working on a piece today for the maple that Canada sent a special ops team to

Israel. Right. I don't know if you caught that piece in global. We did. We covered that on

our last show, The Special Task Force. Right, exactly. And he also flew when we were evacuating

Israelis a few weeks ago. We flew a couple of plane loads of Israelis back to Israel. And

Global Affairs Canada essentially won't say whether they were reservists or not. But I

asked them about it and they said they weren't explicitly reservists, which explicitly seems

to be doing a lot of work in that. And so, yeah, I mean, we're totally complicit. And that's

why I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend who works in media. They're progressive.

They're reporters, so they have to do the whole neutrality thing, but they don't cover global

affairs or anything, but they're just saying, Yeah, I've been avoiding this topic because

like, I know it's horrible, but I don't have any skin in the game, right? I'm not Palestinian.

I'm not Jewish. And it's like, no, but you're Canadian. So you do have skin in the game because

we're complicit. Not only are we possibly flying reservists to participate in this. ethnic cleansing

campaign in Gaza and we're sending a special forces team to do that, which the government

says is just to protect or consulate, but I'm confused as to why special forces team would

be needed to do that. But I'm also not a military expert, so that could be a valid explanation.

But we also have free trade agreement with Israel that is horribly skewed. I mean, goods produced

in illegal settlements. have no tariffs on them. And I mean, that's a good, again, I don't expect

the Canadian government to call for Palestinian liberation. Or BDS. Or yeah, certainly not

BDS. Trudeau thinks that it's an evil thing. Overnight. Yeah, yeah, no, there was a great

piece in the Maple yesterday or the day before. I don't know if you saw it from Alex Kosh,

whose work on this has been fantastic. His friend of mine, shout out to Alex. That was like every

nonviolent form of Palestinian resistance. has been condemned by Canada, right? The United

Nations resolutions, BDS, Israel apartheid week. And we know what happens when we cut off everybody's

avenue to change, right? Like even within small institutions, you get disturbances, right?

People who need to break out of the processes because they don't work. They're not doing

anything. And so, yeah, like you point to the March of Return. for folks in Gaza and they

were just mowed down, right? With the policy of shoot to injure especially. So the casualties

were still over 200 dead, but thousands, thousands injured. Again, media targeted, medics targeted,

and that was simply a march, right? It was to the wall, you know, and if you describe it

and understand it as a prison, it does... it's easy to frame it as a violent act, right? That's

the whole idea. But absolutely everything, even simple things like simple actions to push IDF

off of campuses were met with resistance, slander, you know, just that isn't that is an anti-Jewish

thing to do. It's, you know, taking even an anti-Israeli position is such a has been labeled.

as un-Canadian. And I guess, again, I go back to that point where you start looking and reminding

ourselves how colonial we are still, and how we frame our foreign policy that way. It doesn't

become so puzzling as to why we try to fend off any criticism of us. I think there's a

lot of projection there in terms of Canada's own actions and that of Israel. But you talk

about the role of the media. How do you see your role? How do you, as an independent journalist,

going up against publications like the National Post that so ironic for Joe Roberts to frame

Al Jazeera as simply a propaganda machine, right? He calls it a state-owned enterprise. What's

the quote? under the charade of objective journalism, is a propaganda machine designed to subvert

US interests. I don't know how else you describe our media most of the time, just with the opposite

goals, of propping up US and Canadian interests, capital interests, but there's a real attempt

to invalidate the one set of journalists. that we can somehow rely on from inside Gaza and

the West Bank, but you're a little bit more removed, right? So what's your role as an independent

journalist? And it's really complicated because then how do you focus on anything else? Maybe

that's like a two-part question because I'm struggling with that as well. Yeah, I mean,

it's been a struggle. I mean, you know, I have a book coming out about Canadian and Alberta

politics. Uh, and I mean, it's coming out in a few months, right? So it's not like I have

to be promoting it, uh, aggressively right now, but it's like, yeah, I mean, I can't just seeing,

um, how there's no voice in almost no voice in Canadian, uh, punditry, um, criticism. I

mean, every, everyone is besides Shreep Hardkar. every like regular Canadian columnist has either

said nothing or talked about how Israel is preventing another Holocaust by flattening refugee camps

and bombing hospitals and ambulances and using white phosphorus on United Nations schools.

I mean, this is evil shit, evil, right? And these same people who are talking about the

evils of Hamas. And I look, I agree. I agree. Like Hamas is in again, it's easy for me to

say, and I don't expect Palestinian people to make this observation as a condition for solidarity

with them. But Hamas is a sinister authoritarian religious fundamentalists movement that is

profoundly conservative, but You have to look at the big picture. When you look at the big

picture, it becomes clear that we're not the good guys. Right. Like. Right. And not right.

Like this isn't that there's this lazy binary thinking that

geopolitics doesn't exist and they're just good guys or us in bad guys who are that. But there

are more obvious as it has been right now, I think. Yeah, and it's not again in anything

you say in support of the Palestinians that actually listens to what Palestinian people

are saying is you're pro Hamas. You support you know all these which comes with the terrorist

quote right or the terrorist

You know, the PFLP, which I mean, the PFLP, I I'm not going to say I support the PFLP,

but I am certainly sympathetic to the aims of their political, their political win. And yeah,

like just saying, oh, saying from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is a call

for genocide. Like on what planet? On what planet is everyone colonial lens, right? If you are

looking at it from that colonial perspective of like savages and the civilized, there are

people that are viewing it this way. They're looking at land back in a different way. Now,

like they do believe it. They believe because if you look at the basis of Zionism that like

has to be. one religion, right? Like it's, it is an exclusionary idea. And so they think

in that way, because that's how they've lived. And so, you know, it's the same way I think

that people like Canadians are just going, well, is that how you'd feel if indigenous people

just started trying to take land back in the same way Hamas did on October 7th? Again, like

a real kind of revisionist history, but that's how they view it, right? It's projection. That's

how Israel has gotten to where they are. They have removed Palestinians as they claim land,

right? So any assertion that Palestinians should claim land back, they assume would remain removing

Jewish people because that is how apartheid works. That is what they've lived and breathed

and been taught that is the only solution. And so that's how I think people misinterpret that.

not to mention it's perpetuated by people who don't, who probably do know better and are

just saying this to demonize Palestinian supporters in all the way that they do. But I think some

people then hear it and believe it because that's what they've seen. And they've seen Canada

do it to Indigenous people. You know, when you need a land, you wipe out what's there, right?

Some may survive in some fashion or another, but not without assimilation and all these

definitions that do encompass genocide. And Yeah. So, but that is very frustrating. And

I'm proud to see Palestinians not back down from that, because I know organizing about

eight years ago, you know, it's not the first time that chant has been focused on as meaning

something that it doesn't. But it was the response of a lot of, not every, but a lot of organizations

that were pushing for Palestinian rights at the time was to ask supporters not to chant

that. And. You know, that's not a decision for me to make. I'm usually just a participant.

Well, you know, I remember it right. I remember back in the day, the chant Viva Palestina,

Viva Intifada, which is now just Viva Palestina. Like they drop that because people are saying,

oh, it's called violence, which is, of course, bullshit. but it can be interpreted that way.

But from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. I mean, that, like, yeah, no, like,

people who are telling you that is calling for the elimination of the state of Israel, which,

I mean, I guess you could interpret it that way, but you could, I mean, it's just saying

that. Palestinians living between two bodies of water should have the same rights as Jewish

people do. In fact, is the destruction of the State of Israel, then should the State of Israel

exist as a Jewish state? I think the answer to that question is obvious. And then the extension

that, oh, this is calling for genocide of Jews. How? First of all, you're conflating the existence

of Jewish people with... existence of the state of Israel, which to me is anti-Semitic. And

then you're saying that like you're conflating states with people. States don't have rights

to exist. They exist. There's reality of their existence that people have to contend with,

but it's people. It's people have a right to exist. And if that's the best they can do,

if they're saying there are these anti-Semitic rallies all over the world because they're

calling for everyone, have equal rights between two bodies of water? What does that tell you?

What does that tell you about this narrative that is being perpetuated in the media? But

I think few people seem because they're like, you know, you read the Globe and Mail, like

this is in general, but definitely especially on this issue. Well, no, but you read its reporting.

I get it. I get the paper on the Saturday paper and just read it over the weekend. But you

read the reporting and it's like you learn something like you. Often you have to read between the

lines and you have to sort of. Way. Different points of view, which aren't always of equal

worth, but you learn something often when you when you read the reporting in a paper like

Then you go to the opinion page where it lays out what opinions you're allowed to have. And.

It's it. They don't jive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like the most repugnant. Shit

that is it's just pure ideology, right? It's pure ideology, not that ideology doesn't, in

fact. the way people report the news, because they absolutely does. Including yourself. Right?

Yeah, of course. And the difference is I'm open about that. And I sort of sometimes blur reporting

with analysis and opinion. But yeah, I mean, you learn something. But I mean, there's nothing

to learn from these minds. And there's no... There's no even acknowledgement that there's

another perspective to it. And again, I've seen, you know, and I think the only if I'm not mistaken,

the only Canadian newspaper that actually does foreign reporting anymore is The Globe. And

like, you know, I think like Jeffrey York and Mark McKinnon and others have done a good job,

I think, at. And I think a lot of people disagree with me, but they've done a good enough job,

like presenting what's going on accurately without explicitly telling you what is going on. Right.

But then you read Andrew Coyne and Robin Urbach and Marcus G and Conrad Yakubuski. And it's

just like, what are you talking about? Like, go out and talk to someone like. You know,

I mean, like me a person that's not all anyone is reading. Right. Because if it was when you

pair these kind of so-called unbiased reportings with highly inflammatory opinion pieces, you

come out with one end unless you've got someone that's real critical thinking, trying to dissect

what they're reading and taking the effort to look beyond that. But so few do that. Right.

So it's it ends up being left to independent journalists like yourself and other folks for

saying. That quiet part out loud, oh, yeah. McKinnon won't say the which reminds me because

to directly answer your question, the job of a writer, I don't know if you saw Ta-Nehisi

Coates on Democracy Now yesterday talking about his experience in Gaza, is actually visiting.

I think it was actually the West Bank. I don't know if he went to Gaza, but And just saying

that, like, the really resonated with me when he said the job of a writer is to bear witness,

right? It's to be honest and tell people what you're seeing and in that of all people, writers

should be the first ones to speak out about this. And. You know, it's funny because I remember

back when Cornell West and Tommy C. Coats had their had their like feud and one of Cornell

West's points that I thought was valid was he's like, you never hear Tommy C. Coats talk about

Palestine like, well, why is that? Why isn't he like challenging power in that way? And

now he is. And so, I mean, it is good to see. And I do think it's a sign that the narrative

is shifting the question because I don't think I don't expect Palestinian people to care.

what the West that the Western narrative is shifting, like Western sympathy isn't going

to give them their rights. I mean, it will play a role. You know, it certainly doesn't hurt.

But I mean, I think the narrative clearly is shifting on this topic. And I think, again,

if you read the op-ed pages of our newspapers. Or if you read this like really neutral reporting

that is supposedly just the facts, it's hard to see that. But then you see what's happening

in the streets, right? You see massive protests like in and that are growing in the pro-Israel

side isn't growing. Same people, right? In fact, it's getting I would say, yeah, it's shrinking

because it's becoming harder and harder to hold that line on October 7th. October 8th, they

had many people on their side, right? Felt like it. And it. Yeah, because people who know the

history and context were like, yeah, well, you're about to do way worse and have done way worse.

But but. It's just I. You know, I think I think I saw David Clion, who writes for Jewish currents

and N plus one and. May

tweeted that like Israel is like saying a world record for like burning international goodwill.

And yeah, I mean, it's going to be hard once the dust settles for this for. People. to justify

not boycotting Israel, right? For people to want to engage with Israel when, I mean, clearly,

this apartheid system, of course, is bad for Palestinians. Of course, it's bad for Arabs

in Southern Lebanon, in Egypt, in Jordan. But it's also bad for Israelis because it leads

to things like October 7th. Right. And I think that is an important point too. Right. That

you I think Archbishop Tutu said when he was talking about Palestine, you know, he's saying

like going through the checkpoints and seeing these Palestinians being brutalized. It's also

I'm trying to say this in a way that isn't centering this sort of Israeli experience like you've

seen sometimes, but it also does. damage the souls of the occupiers, right? To see these

kids just manning checkpoints or invading Gaza City. I mean, that. And again, we shouldn't

use this to detract from the suffering of the Palestinians, which is far worse. But it's

also bad for the occupiers, right? It's all, like, it is... And it's important to understand

their psyche, right? To how... this is perpetuated, right? How they can dance outside of an open

air prison and not be impacted in that way, you know, to because a lot of people want to

look to the people of Israel to change their government, you know, but I think like, I,

we lose sight of how, but like, change their government, we are in changing our own government

for the better, right? As they change their go ahead. change their government to what?

I mean, the entire Zionist political spectrum in Israel supports the war, right? It's only

a handful of the- You don't have to call it a war. Yeah, yeah, this campaign of slaughter.

Right? I mean, the entire mainstream Israeli, right? All the people who were protesting Netanyahu,

they were protesting for the Palestinians somewhere and I support the protests because there's

something to build on, right? But now they're all fired up to take revenge on Palestine.

Of course, the attacks of October 7th were revenge, right? And I don't want to be both sidesy about

it, but there is a cycle of violence, right? And that doesn't- Well, even Hamas issues another

statement saying we are going to keep attacking in response to this. And I'm still shocked

at how many people see that statement presented as evidence of how barbaric they are, but in

the midst of a campaign of revenge. Like in the campaign of revenge that you've acknowledged

is revenge, most part. Some are just like, oh, we're weeding out Hamas. But no, in general,

it's like an eye for an eye. This is what you get. You supported Hamas. You didn't remove

them. You let them build tunnels instead of water pipe. Like just the most nonsense. nonsense

coming out. And then to just narrow that ability or that right for revenge just to the state

of Israel, that only they can be justified, and they call it defense, in this. But if Hamas

were to return, if Hamas were to respond to the death of over 4,000 of their children.

Because you're calling them human shields. You are saying these are families of Hamas, essentially,

right? That is the line that's being told. What do you think those fighters are going to do

now? What if they were so angry and backs to the wall and responded in that horrific way?

I can't, I can't understand how people can't look at Hamas saying we're going to do this

again and, and see anything. But well, I guess, yeah, that's what That's what happens, right?

But no, it's this shock, this like, how could they? You see, you see, we're justified. And

it's like, no, you don't understand. That's the receipts that you are not justified, that

your tactics are not going to work. But I think like, if you really boil it down, we don't

have time to get into it today, but I think you and I both know, and a lot of people know

that it's not even about Hamas. You hit on it at the beginning that it is a land grab. And

just like we use the war on terror to justify solidifying oil reserves and getting contracts

in all of these countries and whatnot, very little of it had to do with actually rooting

out militant groups, whether you call them terrorists or not. It's always about getting land and

then selling it as something else. So those intelligence reports that we see that advocate

for... moving everybody out of the north of Gaza, that'll be used in the same way the weapons

of mass destruction, like these memos that are used to then justify what was already been

in the cards for a long time. Right? Like, Yeah, exactly. And that that's another thing about

October 7. I mean, it gave these the openly exterminationist Israeli government the opportunity

to do what it's said it wants to do and people, you know, point to that interview with that

Hamas official as like this smoking gun that Hamas wants nothing more but to commit violence

against Israeli Jews. And it's just like, look at what the Israeli government people in the

Israeli government have been saying for. I mean, look, it's a more Ben Gavir. Right. Or Netanyahu

himself. Or even I mean, Talking about how there is no alternative in Israel, I mean, the president

of Israel, which is supposed to be this like governor general type position, is figurehead.

But he was the leader of the Labor Party before he was appointed. And he's saying there are

no civilians in Gaza. It's their own fault. If they should have thought about this before

an overthrown Hamas. And right. And again. um, they're, they're being like deliberately obtuse

when, when they just point at Hamas and pretend that this doesn't exist in any sort of like

continuum. That's just this vacuum of Hamas and that this is like, how can you compare?

How can you compare the this? bombing of this open-air prison, this deliberately disproportionate,

indiscriminate bombing of an open-air prison, an ethnic cleansing therein, to the fight against

the Nazis. Like, that is grotesque. It is so grotesque. And again, I think when the dust

fells, a lot of people are going to say... Oh, yeah, you know, I didn't realize how bad it

was or I didn't get I didn't know fucking Joe Roberts goes around saying that he was against

it all along. He knew all along that he took screenshots. Yeah, don't let them forget. These

people should never be allowed to forget what they supported when it mattered. And I'm just

saying, especially because the right wingers are going to whatever they're going to go to

their deathbed saying that this was justified. But the liberals, the more centrist types or

center-right types, like they cannot be allowed to forget that when it mattered, they fully

supported this campaign of ethnic cleansing. And... Like, no pressure, but it's going to

be up to folks like you to make sure that folks don't forget, right? The Canadian, all public,

especially political, memories are very short. We allow folks to spin the hell out of this

down the road. And so, you know, you've... you've got a big role to play there and along with

other people, you know, it's not on all your back, but before we go, I wanted to get your

reaction on something and in a way, I guess, it asks a question of what would you do? You

know, we hear some statements coming out from people working at the BBC that anchors and

staff are crying at their desks, having to pump out Israeli propaganda. in a time like this

and how, you know, that internal struggle and how do they live with themselves? Lots of people

are calling for resignations of MPs, you know, having that platform and not adequately using

it. What would you do if you were a BBC anchor or you had one of these positions where clearly

the pressure is on to toe a certain line that is genocide. This isn't just any old capitalist

policy, right? Like this is something next level. be an armchair journalist for a moment, not

that you aren't one, but like of the folks that we're being really critical of, like what would

you do in that position? What should they be doing instead of this? I mean, yeah, I do think

we should feel sorry for them because at the end of the day, I mean, there are a lot of

media jobs around and not everyone can do what I do and just go independent and depend on

good building audience and depend on people's goodwill. So I am empathetic to that, especially

people who put, I mean, when you have journalists gang, Palestinian journalists getting fired

for simply speaking out against what's happening to their people should never happen to an Israeli

journalist or Jewish journalists. No. I mean, Yeah, I mean, the least you could do is speak

out and say, this is wrong, you know, and I know you're going to you don't want to get

reprisals, but there are more of us than there are of them. And so I would it's easy for me

to say in my position, right. I mean, you saw in 2021, there was that letter signed by hundreds

of Canadian journalists.

the way Canadian media frames this conflict. And a lot of them are silent, right? Because

they got a backlash for it, right? I mean, there is, you know, there's the Honest Report in

Canada, for example, right? This pro-Israel

media watchdog. I mean, they're open about it. They're bragging that they got these two journalists

fired. And they're saying, this is an example to anyone. If you... express anti-Israel sentiment,

we will hold you accountable. And

all I can say is just don't be intimidated. Right? I mean... There are people who value

what you do. And again, it's hard because there is a certain degree of security with a job,

but. For me, I can just speak to my own experience. I'm not going to tell people what to do, because

I do empathize with the situation they're in, which is nothing compared to what Palestinians

and Gaza are going through, but I get it. It's just, think about when the dust settles and

you look back on this. Will you be able to live with the fact that you didn't do the few things

within... your power to at least try and put a stop to this. And I don't know, maybe some

people are OK with that, right? Because they're just like, yeah, I got a family to feed. And

and I can't risk job security over speaking out about something I don't like have direct

control over. But but for me, it's like I wouldn't be able to live with myself. if I didn't do

like everything in my power right now, which isn't a lot to bear witness. And I think it's

easy to focus on, to just try and focus on the other things and just ignore what's going on.

But this is, I mean, this is serious stuff.

Again, the more people that speak out, the harder it is for

these pro-Israel groups to target them.

Just remember that you're going to get called anti-Semitic, but you don't have to disprove

you're anti-Semitic. These people have to prove that you're anti-Semitic. And again, if the

best they can do is saying that you said that everyone between the Jordan River and Mediterranean

Sea should have equal rights. If that's the most anti-Semitic thing that you've ever said,

then you're good. No one believes that shit. Like you're boss's mate. And again, that's

the problem. But, you know, now is not the time for cowardice, right? Now is the time for courage,

which is in very short supply, as you can see. And so, again, I get it. you have a job you

need to provide for your family or for yourself. But like, just think of the bigger picture

here. And see that the media can manufacture whatever consent it wants. But the people are

largely on your side. And Again, I don't expect journalists to, you know, organize pro-Palestine

marches or criticize their bosses when they make shitty editorial decisions, although that

would be nice. Just go to the protest, not as a journalist, just as a human being, right?

Strengthen numbers. You know, wear a mask if you don't want- You should be wearing a mask

anyway. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But all the more reason to wear a mask. And yeah, like individually,

we can't do much, but together we can do a lot more. And I think the tide is turning. It's

just turning slower than it needs to be. And that's really distressing when you think about

it that way. But again. Um, people can contribute to the cause in different ways, right? And,

um, just do something, do something, even if it's tiny, like, like we need all hands on

deck here, right? Because we are, we are up against very influential forces, but together

we can be an influential counterforce. Thank you, Jeremy. for those words there to encourage

folks, but for doing a lot of the heavy lifting up there. I know you're gonna say it pales

in comparison to what Palestinians are doing, even the diaspora, and we get that, but I also

see you sticking your neck out there and taking some blows, whether you read them or mute them

or block them. I know some of them get through, and I wanna just encourage you to just keep

it up and know that you make space for people when you do what you do. and even for folks

like me, but also for just regular people talking to their family and feeling validated and having

some of the receipts to back up the things that they need to say and getting it from sources

that they know they can trust. So thank you, Jeremy, for coming on the show and for all

of your hard work. Thanks for having me, Jess. Always, always a pleasure. That is a wrap on

another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also, a very big

thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Helu Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is

an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter at BPofDisruption.

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