1 00:00:00,330 --> 00:00:08,213 So it's hard to know when we're on or off. All right, okay, fine. Good evening 2 00:00:08,213 --> 00:00:16,096 and welcome to Crowd Church. We're excited to be here tonight. Uh, tonight I'm 3 00:00:16,096 --> 00:00:23,980 Anna, and tonight I'm joined by the lovely Dave. Dave, say hi to everyone. 4 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:25,879 Hi everybody, good to be with you again. 5 00:00:26,449 --> 00:00:29,109 It's nice to have you back. Is it your first one after summer? 6 00:00:29,109 --> 00:00:31,820 It is. It should have been last week, but I wasn't able to do. 7 00:00:31,820 --> 00:00:34,700 Okay, cool. Well, it's lovely to have you back, Dave. 8 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:35,259 Good to be back. 9 00:00:35,259 --> 00:00:38,100 Good, it's good. I'm also joined tonight by Sharon. 10 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:39,990 Hi everybody, good to be here. 11 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:44,678 Sharon's going to be sharing with us in a minute, um, on the next in our series 12 00:00:44,678 --> 00:00:49,365 that we've been doing recently on Jesus the Revolutionary. So she's going to be 13 00:00:49,365 --> 00:00:54,054 sharing the talk for us in a minute. Um, but just to say before we start that, 14 00:00:54,054 --> 00:00:58,742 um, as we go into the talk tonight on Crowd Church, please do kind of, um, 15 00:00:58,742 --> 00:01:03,429 follow along, um, make some comments, put your— post your questions in the 16 00:01:03,429 --> 00:01:08,117 comments bar. Um, and also just to say that tonight we've got something a bit 17 00:01:08,117 --> 00:01:12,805 different happening. So it's the first time we're trying out Live Lounge, which 18 00:01:12,805 --> 00:01:17,493 is an opportunity just to join a Zoom, um, room where you can join other people 19 00:01:17,493 --> 00:01:22,182 who are watching Crowd live. Um, and it's a chance to like chat to other people, 20 00:01:22,182 --> 00:01:26,870 meet other people, connect a little bit, talk about what you're watching as you 21 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:31,557 go. Um, yeah, so people who want that, the link to the Zoom room will be in the, 22 00:01:31,557 --> 00:01:36,246 um, in, in the comments box. And Matt says it's coming on in 5 seconds, so sorry 23 00:01:36,246 --> 00:01:40,933 if it's not there yet. But yeah, we'll be adding that and, um, please join that 24 00:01:40,933 --> 00:01:45,621 if you want to, but if not, that's fine as well. You can just watch us on 25 00:01:45,621 --> 00:01:50,310 YouTube or social media, wherever you normally join us from. That's absolutely 26 00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:54,997 fine too. Um, I think some people are already in that, in that chat room already 27 00:01:54,997 --> 00:01:59,686 though. And then at the end of Crowd Church, us as hosts will also join to say a 28 00:01:59,686 --> 00:02:04,373 quick hello to everyone too. So I think that's probably all I need to say at the 29 00:02:04,373 --> 00:02:09,061 top. Um, so I'm going to pass over to Sharon, who's gonna, um, share with us 30 00:02:09,061 --> 00:02:13,750 tonight. Yeah, cool. 31 00:02:14,180 --> 00:02:17,250 Yeah, so when I started dating Matt, my now husband of 28 years, one of the 32 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:20,319 things— 33 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:22,740 can you hear him? 34 00:02:22,909 --> 00:02:27,723 Yeah. One of the things that attracted me to him was that he was different to 35 00:02:27,723 --> 00:02:32,537 other guys I knew. Those of you who know him will not be surprised by that. Um, 36 00:02:32,537 --> 00:02:37,350 and one of the things that was different was that he loved studying the Bible, 37 00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:42,164 and he would spend hours searching in it for the answers to his questions, and 38 00:02:42,164 --> 00:02:46,977 then he would put them into practice, which was great, um, especially when it 39 00:02:46,977 --> 00:02:51,791 came to the subject of marriage and being a good husband. And, um, he had Bible 40 00:02:51,791 --> 00:02:56,604 verses and other inspirational or motivational sayings, um, pinned up around his 41 00:02:56,604 --> 00:03:01,418 bedroom. Now, we can't remember what those were, but we're fairly sure that none 42 00:03:01,418 --> 00:03:06,231 of them were the verse I'm going to talk about tonight. And I also don't 43 00:03:06,231 --> 00:03:11,045 remember seeing them— I don't know, for those of you who are around churches in 44 00:03:11,045 --> 00:03:15,858 the 1980s, they used to have these cute little posters up on the walls, um, 45 00:03:15,858 --> 00:03:20,672 with, you know, sayings. I don't remember it being there either. So, it's not 46 00:03:20,672 --> 00:03:25,485 usually a verse that makes it onto walls, though maybe your experience is 47 00:03:25,485 --> 00:03:30,299 different. So, today is the first part of a series looking at the tougher 48 00:03:30,299 --> 00:03:35,112 teachings of Jesus, and it's part of a larger series looking at Jesus the 49 00:03:35,112 --> 00:03:39,926 revolutionary. Over the past few months, we've looked at how Jesus builds 50 00:03:39,926 --> 00:03:44,740 belonging and different types of— a different type of community. 51 00:03:44,740 --> 00:03:45,030 Mm-hmm. 52 00:03:45,030 --> 00:03:49,979 And it's much easier to love those verses, you know, the ones that make us feel 53 00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:54,930 warm and fuzzy. But if we want to be true followers of Jesus, we can't just pick 54 00:03:54,930 --> 00:03:59,879 out the bits that we like and leave the rest, just as we can't only eat dessert 55 00:03:59,879 --> 00:04:04,829 and expect to be healthy, unfortunately. Or maybe you're just looking into 56 00:04:04,829 --> 00:04:09,780 Christianity, wondering what it's all about, wondering if Jesus is worth giving 57 00:04:09,780 --> 00:04:14,729 your time to or your life to. Then it's important for you also to know some of 58 00:04:14,729 --> 00:04:19,680 Jesus' tougher teachings so you don't get a lopsided view. So, what is this 59 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,629 verse we're going to look at today? It's John 16:33, and the first part of it 60 00:04:24,629 --> 00:04:29,579 says this: In this world you will have trouble. Great, eh? 61 00:04:29,579 --> 00:04:29,990 Mm. 62 00:04:29,990 --> 00:04:34,915 It doesn't even say you might have trouble, it says you will. Now, some of you 63 00:04:34,915 --> 00:04:39,840 are already thinking, wait, what? Jesus promises me trouble? I'm not sure I like 64 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:44,764 that. And for some, that verse will send you into a panic by anticipating what 65 00:04:44,764 --> 00:04:49,689 might be coming your way. And for others who thought that being a Christian 66 00:04:49,689 --> 00:04:54,615 would mean that everything would suddenly fall into place in your life, and that 67 00:04:54,615 --> 00:04:59,540 it would mean an end to your trouble, this verse might come as a bit of a shock. 68 00:04:59,540 --> 00:05:04,465 And in many ways, following Jesus does make life fall into place, because he 69 00:05:04,465 --> 00:05:09,389 knows how he's created us to thrive. So, when I learnt to receive God's 70 00:05:09,389 --> 00:05:14,314 forgiveness and his grace, that took that internal pressure of guilt and shame 71 00:05:14,314 --> 00:05:19,240 from me. And when I learnt to forgive, it took the anger and the darkness from 72 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:24,165 me. And when I learnt to believe who God says I am, instead of all the negative 73 00:05:24,165 --> 00:05:29,089 things going around in my brain, I could finally enjoy who God had created me to 74 00:05:29,089 --> 00:05:34,014 be. But Jesus also said this in Luke 4. He said, the Spirit of the Lord is on me 75 00:05:34,014 --> 00:05:38,939 because he's anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. 76 00:05:38,939 --> 00:05:39,129 That's right. 77 00:05:39,790 --> 00:05:44,286 He sent me to proclaim freedom to the prisoners and recovery of sight for the 78 00:05:44,286 --> 00:05:48,783 blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour. So 79 00:05:48,783 --> 00:05:53,279 Jesus is about all of these things. So in a way, following Jesus does make life 80 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,776 fall into place. However, we're also promised trouble. But I would like to argue 81 00:05:57,776 --> 00:06:02,273 that this is actually an encouraging verse, especially when we look at the rest 82 00:06:02,273 --> 00:06:06,769 of it. 83 00:06:06,769 --> 00:06:07,060 Mm-hmm. 84 00:06:07,540 --> 00:06:12,373 And the bits before, but I'll get into that soon. So, what does Jesus mean by 85 00:06:12,373 --> 00:06:17,206 trouble? The Greek word used is thlipsis, and it's used 45 times in the New 86 00:06:17,206 --> 00:06:22,040 Testament of the Bible. And its literal meaning is a pressure or squeezing or 87 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,873 compression, but it's used metaphorically to refer to something outward, an 88 00:06:26,873 --> 00:06:31,706 outward affliction or a distress or a persecution that causes that internal 89 00:06:31,706 --> 00:06:36,540 pressure and anguish. 90 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:36,750 Mm-hmm. 91 00:06:37,189 --> 00:06:41,701 And I expect we've all experienced that at some point in our lives. Maybe that's 92 00:06:41,701 --> 00:06:46,213 how you feel today. Now, there is a trouble that we bring on ourselves by our 93 00:06:46,213 --> 00:06:50,725 own stupidity or rebellion. For example, if at work we're sloppy in what we do, 94 00:06:50,725 --> 00:06:55,236 we arrive late, we leave early, we're likely to bring trouble on ourselves with 95 00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:59,748 our boss and our coworkers. Or, for example, it's the kind of trouble that I 96 00:06:59,748 --> 00:07:04,259 experienced years ago whilst driving. 97 00:07:04,259 --> 00:07:04,430 Hmm. 98 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,386 And being distracted by 3 small kids in the car, and I turned— I missed my exit 99 00:07:09,386 --> 00:07:13,972 on the motorway and turned a 1.5-hour journey into a 4.5-hour journey. So, Jesus 100 00:07:13,972 --> 00:07:18,557 isn't talking about that kind of trouble here. The other uses of the Greek word 101 00:07:18,557 --> 00:07:23,144 thlipsis in the New Testament refer to 2 other broad categories. The first is 102 00:07:23,144 --> 00:07:27,730 the distress brought about by living in a broken world. 103 00:07:27,730 --> 00:07:27,990 Mm. 104 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:32,344 So, it talks about the trouble or distress of losing your parents or becoming 105 00:07:32,344 --> 00:07:36,698 So, even in these days, the loss of your parents or your husband is a 106 00:07:36,698 --> 00:07:41,052 distressing event. In most cases, I hope the loss of a husband is a distressing 107 00:07:41,052 --> 00:07:45,407 event. But back then, it added an extra layer of vulnerability to your life, 108 00:07:45,407 --> 00:07:49,761 potentially leaving you without a protector or a provider. So, this type of 109 00:07:49,761 --> 00:07:54,115 trouble would include things like illnesses, miscarriages, the endless search 110 00:07:54,115 --> 00:07:58,470 for a job, abuse, many other things. 111 00:07:58,470 --> 00:07:58,730 Yeah. 112 00:07:59,139 --> 00:08:03,521 And this is the sort of trouble that's not caused by our own actions, and it's 113 00:08:03,521 --> 00:08:07,903 the sort of trouble that we're all likely to face, whatever our religion or lack 114 00:08:07,903 --> 00:08:12,286 of religion. It's the sort of stuff that happens to everyone because we live in 115 00:08:12,286 --> 00:08:16,668 a broken world full of broken people. So, the second category is trouble that 116 00:08:16,668 --> 00:08:21,050 comes as a direct result of our faith. 117 00:08:21,050 --> 00:08:21,209 Yeah. 118 00:08:21,209 --> 00:08:25,978 So, Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, talks about some extreme forms of 119 00:08:25,978 --> 00:08:30,746 trouble that he suffered because he was a follower of Jesus. And this included 120 00:08:30,746 --> 00:08:35,514 beatings, imprisonments, riots, hard work, sleepless nights, hunger, insults, 121 00:08:35,514 --> 00:08:40,283 and loads more. And there are many people around the world today who experience 122 00:08:40,283 --> 00:08:45,051 those things for their faith in Jesus. In the UK, we have much milder forms of 123 00:08:45,051 --> 00:08:49,820 trouble for our faith, don't we? 124 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:50,519 Mm-hmm. 125 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:55,264 Evangelical Focus says Christians in the UK primarily experience cultural 126 00:08:55,264 --> 00:09:00,009 pressure, workplace friction, and social hostility when expressing traditional 127 00:09:00,009 --> 00:09:04,754 views on sexual ethics, marriage, and gender identity. While British law 128 00:09:04,754 --> 00:09:09,500 protects religious freedom, many believers face practical challenges in public 129 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:14,245 and professional life. Now, Ephesians 6 tells us that we're in a spiritual 130 00:09:14,245 --> 00:09:18,990 battle. It says we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the 131 00:09:18,990 --> 00:09:23,735 rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present 132 00:09:23,735 --> 00:09:28,480 darkness, um, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 133 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,225 So, part of the trouble we face as believers is because of the spiritual battle, 134 00:09:33,225 --> 00:09:37,970 spiritual forces stirring up trouble on earth. So, how is this promise of 135 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:42,715 trouble encouraging? Well, I think it's encouraging for a couple of reasons. One 136 00:09:42,715 --> 00:09:47,460 is that we all do experience trouble, and if we have this belief that Being a 137 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:52,204 Christian should give us a guarantee of a trouble-free life. When trouble hits, 138 00:09:52,204 --> 00:09:56,950 we can blame ourselves for our trouble, or we can doubt God's character, his 139 00:09:56,950 --> 00:10:01,694 love, or his power, and we could needlessly throw away our faith. In fact, one 140 00:10:01,694 --> 00:10:06,439 of the reasons Jesus gives for the teaching leading up to today's verse is this. 141 00:10:06,439 --> 00:10:11,184 He says, all this I've told you so that you will not fall away. So, I think it's 142 00:10:11,184 --> 00:10:15,929 encouraging to know that when we experience trouble, it doesn't necessarily mean 143 00:10:15,929 --> 00:10:20,674 it's our fault, and it doesn't mean God doesn't love us, it doesn't mean we 144 00:10:20,674 --> 00:10:25,419 haven't prayed enough or done enough. In fact, it can come because we are 145 00:10:25,419 --> 00:10:30,164 pursuing God and doing exactly what we're meant to be doing. The second thing 146 00:10:30,164 --> 00:10:34,909 that's encouraging is the next sentence of the passage. So, if we put the 2 147 00:10:34,909 --> 00:10:39,654 sentences together, they say this: In this world you will have trouble, but take 148 00:10:39,654 --> 00:10:44,399 heart, I have overcome the world. 149 00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:44,799 Yes. 150 00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:49,610 So, this verse comes at the end of a whole set of teaching that Jesus is giving 151 00:10:49,610 --> 00:10:54,419 his closest followers, and the The context is really important because he's not 152 00:10:54,419 --> 00:10:59,230 talking to them at a time when everything is happy and peaceful. Jesus is not 153 00:10:59,230 --> 00:11:04,039 theorising about a distant future trouble. He's about to be betrayed to death by 154 00:11:04,039 --> 00:11:08,850 one of the group, and he knows this is going to be an extremely distressing, 155 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:13,659 terrifying, and confusing time for them. He knows they're not as brave as they 156 00:11:13,659 --> 00:11:18,470 thought they were. He knew they were going to desert him, scatter, and hide. 157 00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:19,080 Mm-hmm. 158 00:11:19,809 --> 00:11:23,774 And in the case of Peter, denying him 3 times, which Matt spoke about last week. 159 00:11:23,774 --> 00:11:27,740 This is ver— this verse is like the end of a pep talk. 160 00:11:27,740 --> 00:11:28,090 Yeah. 161 00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:32,852 That a unit commander is giving to his soldiers right before they're going into 162 00:11:32,852 --> 00:11:37,614 battle. He's calling them to take heart or have courage. The call is the same to 163 00:11:37,614 --> 00:11:42,376 us when we're facing battles. So, if you're facing battles in your life today, 164 00:11:42,376 --> 00:11:47,138 have courage. Why? Because he's overcome the world. But what does that mean? So, 165 00:11:47,138 --> 00:11:51,900 in the Bible, the world often means more than the physical earth that we live 166 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:56,662 on. It can refer to our human systems that don't acknowledge God. And if you've 167 00:11:56,662 --> 00:12:01,424 ever interacted with any of our human systems, you will know just how 168 00:12:01,424 --> 00:12:06,187 frustrating they can be and how difficult. It refers to sin, rebellion, and 169 00:12:06,187 --> 00:12:10,949 unbelief. It refers to the evil spiritual forces. God is greater than all of 170 00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:15,711 them. He's more powerful. He's greater than every problem we have to face. So, 171 00:12:15,711 --> 00:12:20,473 does this mean that every time we experience trouble, we can just pray and all 172 00:12:20,473 --> 00:12:25,235 will be sunshine and rainbows and we'll feel fabulous? No. What does Jesus 173 00:12:25,235 --> 00:12:29,997 overcoming the world look like in everyday life? So, it can look different in 174 00:12:29,997 --> 00:12:34,759 different situations and for different people. 175 00:12:34,759 --> 00:12:35,000 Mm-hmm. 176 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,587 For example, in the book of Acts chapter 5, Peter and some others were in prison 177 00:12:38,587 --> 00:12:42,174 for practice— for preaching about Jesus, and suddenly this angel showed up, and 178 00:12:42,174 --> 00:12:45,762 supernaturally broke them out. I love stuff like that. I'd love to see more of 179 00:12:45,762 --> 00:12:49,350 it in my life. 180 00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:49,539 Mm-hmm. 181 00:12:49,539 --> 00:12:54,135 But just 2 chapters later, we read about Stephen, who was this incredibly godly 182 00:12:54,135 --> 00:12:58,731 man, getting stoned to death by the religious people for preaching about Jesus. 183 00:12:58,731 --> 00:13:03,327 2 chapters later. And before they started stoning him, the Bible says this, but 184 00:13:03,327 --> 00:13:07,922 Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, 185 00:13:07,922 --> 00:13:12,518 and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Look, he said, I see heaven open 186 00:13:12,518 --> 00:13:17,114 and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. So sometimes Jesus 187 00:13:17,114 --> 00:13:21,710 overcoming the world in our lives involves the miracles and the outcomes that we 188 00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:26,305 wanted. Sometimes it involves God giving his presence and the peace to walk 189 00:13:26,305 --> 00:13:30,901 through the situation, knowing that there's more than just this life. So one of 190 00:13:30,901 --> 00:13:35,497 the trustees of the charity that I work for, was diagnosed with skin cancer at 191 00:13:35,497 --> 00:13:40,092 the same time as I was last year. And I experienced Jesus in this really 192 00:13:40,092 --> 00:13:44,688 powerful way. I had a strong sense that it wasn't my time to die. And whenever, 193 00:13:44,688 --> 00:13:49,284 whenever I felt upset, I prayed it through, and I had such this strong sense of 194 00:13:49,284 --> 00:13:53,879 peace and joy and love. 195 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:54,139 Mm-hmm. 196 00:13:54,139 --> 00:13:58,909 It just like, it was amazing. And it was as if God was working behind the scenes 197 00:13:58,909 --> 00:14:03,679 to bring me this highly skilled surgical team, including a Christian anaesthetist 198 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:08,449 who was praying for miracles. And it was this, um, it was like God worked 199 00:14:08,449 --> 00:14:13,220 through the team to give me a better outcome than they could have done alone. So 200 00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:17,990 that was Jesus overcoming the world. That's what it looked like for me. My 201 00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:22,759 colleague, on the other hand, experienced the suffering and anguish of a cancer 202 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:27,529 that spread and caused her much pain. But within that, she experienced the peace 203 00:14:27,529 --> 00:14:32,299 of God and that anticipation that death wasn't the end of the story. 204 00:14:32,299 --> 00:14:32,700 The blessing. 205 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:36,700 And that actually something better was waiting on the other side for her. And it 206 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:40,700 was her funeral a few months ago. 2 people, similar situation, God working in 207 00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:44,700 both of us, but it looked completely different. 208 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:46,470 Yeah. 209 00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:50,567 So, there's a certain amount of mystery to all this, isn't there? We don't 210 00:14:50,567 --> 00:14:54,664 necessarily get the answer to the question of why. Like, why does God do a 211 00:14:54,664 --> 00:14:58,762 miracle for one person and just give strength for another, or something 212 00:14:58,762 --> 00:15:02,860 different? Why does God allow that innocent child to get brain cancer and 213 00:15:02,860 --> 00:15:06,957 suffer? Why does he allow a Christian pastor to get hit by a sign at a Christian 214 00:15:06,957 --> 00:15:11,055 festival and die? Why does he allow the wars? Why, why, why? There are partial 215 00:15:11,055 --> 00:15:15,152 answers to these questions in the Bible, but I think this side of eternity, we 216 00:15:15,152 --> 00:15:19,250 only catch a glimpse of that. 217 00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:19,539 Mm. 218 00:15:19,539 --> 00:15:24,038 The answers don't fully satisfy. They don't always make sense to us at the time. 219 00:15:24,038 --> 00:15:28,535 But Jesus dying on the cross looked like a big failure, but in fact, it was part 220 00:15:28,535 --> 00:15:33,033 of God's rescue plan. So even when we don't understand, why don't we take Jesus' 221 00:15:33,033 --> 00:15:37,531 advice in our trouble and have courage because he has overcome the world? I'm 222 00:15:37,531 --> 00:15:42,029 gonna hand back to you guys. 223 00:15:42,029 --> 00:15:46,709 Perfect. Thanks so much, Sharon. That was great and just a lot of really good 224 00:15:46,709 --> 00:15:51,389 content in there. I, um, I just love that last point that even when it looked 225 00:15:51,389 --> 00:15:56,069 like the plan had all gone wrong, yeah, you know, when Jesus died on the cross, 226 00:15:56,069 --> 00:16:00,750 it was like, actually, it looked like Not an outcome that the disciples or 227 00:16:00,750 --> 00:16:05,429 anybody who knew Jesus was like hoping for or expecting. They expect that this 228 00:16:05,429 --> 00:16:10,110 kind of Messiah to come and rescue them all, but actually Jesus' rescue plan 229 00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:14,789 kind of looked like human— like failure in human eyes. 230 00:16:14,789 --> 00:16:15,129 Yeah. 231 00:16:15,129 --> 00:16:18,663 But it wasn't. It was like— yes, that, that's just incredible. What a great 232 00:16:18,663 --> 00:16:22,196 thought to start on. It's— yeah, yeah, inspiring. What did you think, Dave? What 233 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:25,730 jumped out to you? 234 00:16:26,059 --> 00:16:29,897 I think, you know, as you— when Sharon started and she talked about, you know, 235 00:16:29,897 --> 00:16:33,735 the verse, I think probably very few Christians have that, um, underlined in the 236 00:16:33,735 --> 00:16:37,573 Bible, um, as, you know, their favourite verse. Um, but I think it's a real 237 00:16:37,573 --> 00:16:41,412 verse, and I think it's all about trusting God, you know, which is what the 238 00:16:41,412 --> 00:16:45,250 faith walk is about, isn't it? 239 00:16:45,250 --> 00:16:45,519 Mm-hmm. 240 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:48,519 You know, and, um, I think, you know, as we read this verse, and I was looking 241 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,519 at it in several different versions today, You know, it doesn't say God sent the 242 00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:54,519 trouble. 243 00:16:54,519 --> 00:16:54,929 Yeah. 244 00:16:54,929 --> 00:16:59,610 You know, and I'm sure there are times when God pulls back his grace and trouble 245 00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:04,289 unfortunately comes into people's lives. But, um, I, I had 2 points and it was 246 00:17:04,289 --> 00:17:08,970 simply, and the question is not whether suffering will come, the question is how 247 00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:13,650 will we respond when it does? 248 00:17:13,650 --> 00:17:14,240 Yeah. 249 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,360 Because, you know, that really shows us where we are. Like you were saying about 250 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:20,480 the 2 ladies, Oh, sorry, yourself. 251 00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:20,829 Yeah. 252 00:17:20,910 --> 00:17:24,009 And your colleague. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 253 00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:27,025 That's really good. I think that example you gave, Sharon, of you and your 254 00:17:27,025 --> 00:17:29,950 colleague— um, was it colleague? 255 00:17:30,099 --> 00:17:30,369 Yeah. 256 00:17:30,369 --> 00:17:30,680 Yeah. 257 00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:34,717 Um, it's quite— it's really powerful. Like, like, like you said, 2 similar 258 00:17:34,717 --> 00:17:38,535 journeys but 2 different outcomes, and yet God was in them both. And I sort of 259 00:17:38,535 --> 00:17:42,352 reflect on times when it's like, I don't understand this, I don't understand why 260 00:17:42,352 --> 00:17:46,170 that's happened. 261 00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:46,390 Yeah. 262 00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:49,014 But as you say, good things happen— like, bad things happen to good people all 263 00:17:49,014 --> 00:17:51,329 the time. 264 00:17:51,329 --> 00:17:51,450 Yes. 265 00:17:51,450 --> 00:17:55,978 But I suppose for me, it's stepping back from that and being like, well, that's 266 00:17:55,978 --> 00:18:00,507 the situation. But one thing I heard this summer actually that just really has 267 00:18:00,507 --> 00:18:05,036 stuck with me on this theme was, um, Tyler Staton, who's a— he's a church pastor 268 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:09,565 in America, and, um, he's written a few books on prayer and the Holy Spirit and 269 00:18:09,565 --> 00:18:14,093 stuff. And he was speaking at Wildfires, which some of the Crowd group we're at. 270 00:18:14,093 --> 00:18:18,622 Um, and like, he, he talked about kind of how, um, some of those things that we 271 00:18:18,622 --> 00:18:23,151 don't understand, it's only resolved— like, we, we want healing now, we want 272 00:18:23,151 --> 00:18:27,680 miracles now. 273 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:27,980 Yeah. 274 00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:31,523 We want answers to prayer now. Absolutely. And I'm the same as the next person. 275 00:18:31,523 --> 00:18:35,066 Like, I, I want God to step into my situation and fix it fast. Who doesn't, 276 00:18:35,066 --> 00:18:38,609 right? That's just human nature, isn't it? 277 00:18:38,609 --> 00:18:38,789 Yeah. 278 00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:42,160 But what he says is, even in those instances where God does that it's not a 279 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,529 permanent fix, it's a temporary one, because it doesn't solve the eternal 280 00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:48,900 problem. 281 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:49,109 Yeah. 282 00:18:49,109 --> 00:18:52,913 Which is that, you know, they might not— like, even if God had stepped in to 283 00:18:52,913 --> 00:18:56,716 save your friend in that kind of physical healing kind of way, she would have 284 00:18:56,716 --> 00:19:00,519 still died at some point. 285 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:00,849 Yes. 286 00:19:00,849 --> 00:19:04,694 It might not have been cancer and it might not have been today, but we all die, 287 00:19:04,694 --> 00:19:08,539 right? We all, we all have like that, that kind of finite— because sin and the 288 00:19:08,539 --> 00:19:12,384 way that this broken world is. So it's like even when God does step in, it's 289 00:19:12,384 --> 00:19:16,230 only a temporary solution. 290 00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:16,660 Yes. 291 00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:19,470 But actually, the, the big solution that we all have is only in salvation, and 292 00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:22,279 we already have that. 293 00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:22,470 Yes. 294 00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:26,009 Right, as believers, we have that, and that's an eternal guarantee. 295 00:19:26,009 --> 00:19:26,400 Yeah. 296 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,265 An eternal inheritance. Um, that promise that God will heal and redeem and 297 00:19:30,265 --> 00:19:34,130 restore everything in time. 298 00:19:34,130 --> 00:19:34,789 Yeah. 299 00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:38,708 Is kind of You know that. Yeah. And I just think that, that's really stuck with 300 00:19:38,708 --> 00:19:42,625 me over the last few weeks and just been mulling it over all summer. It's just 301 00:19:42,625 --> 00:19:46,544 like, oh yeah, so often we can get fixated on like, why didn't God do it this 302 00:19:46,544 --> 00:19:50,461 way? Or— and God's not always interested in the immediate fix. He's interested 303 00:19:50,461 --> 00:19:54,380 in the long-term fix. 304 00:19:54,380 --> 00:19:54,680 Yeah, yeah. 305 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,005 That's what the cross did. Um, yeah, yeah. So it just strikes me as you're 306 00:19:57,005 --> 00:19:59,329 talking about it. 307 00:19:59,329 --> 00:20:04,113 I think it is that having that eternal perspective, isn't it, just changes the 308 00:20:04,113 --> 00:20:08,896 way that we look at what happens now. We don't necessarily always get the 309 00:20:08,896 --> 00:20:13,679 answers now, but when you— yeah, it's almost like you can step out and take that 310 00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:18,463 bigger view. Um, we were talking in our physical church we go to this morning 311 00:20:18,463 --> 00:20:23,246 about how worshiping God can get our eyes off our little situation now and look 312 00:20:23,246 --> 00:20:28,029 up to the one who is bigger, who's got everything, you know, in his grip. 313 00:20:28,029 --> 00:20:32,779 But yeah, everything around us I, I, it feels at times it's about the immediate 314 00:20:32,779 --> 00:20:37,529 fix. And the thing that I've been a Christian a long time and I've had high 315 00:20:37,529 --> 00:20:42,279 highs and low lows and I had lots of painful things happen and, you know, I've 316 00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:47,029 known lots of the glory of God. But, you know, for me, the thing is knowing that 317 00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:51,779 God is walking through it with us, you know. 318 00:20:51,779 --> 00:20:52,390 Mm-hmm. 319 00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:57,663 And, um, and, and just as we, you know, we embrace scripture in those really 320 00:20:57,663 --> 00:21:02,936 difficult times. especially of loss, especially, um, I mean, I've had a number 321 00:21:02,936 --> 00:21:08,209 of friends that died over the last 12 months, and, um, and, and nothing can fill 322 00:21:08,209 --> 00:21:13,482 that void, and nothing's supposed to, you know, because we are supposed to miss 323 00:21:13,482 --> 00:21:18,755 them. And it's only when we look at that void with a, with thankfulness, you 324 00:21:18,755 --> 00:21:24,028 know, thankfulness to God, um, because we know that God is in that situation. 325 00:21:24,028 --> 00:21:29,301 Yeah. But, you know, I was saying to Sharon before we started, you know, when I 326 00:21:29,301 --> 00:21:34,575 read the, you know, the verse for today, it takes me to, um, Daniel 3, where 327 00:21:34,575 --> 00:21:39,848 there's these 3 young men, um, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego, you know. And 328 00:21:39,848 --> 00:21:45,121 these are men who were thought to be of high standing. They were exiles, they 329 00:21:45,121 --> 00:21:50,394 were in prison, but they were thought to be in high standing. And demands were 330 00:21:50,394 --> 00:21:55,667 being put on them. And, um, and it says in Daniel 3, Verse 17 and 18, it says 331 00:21:55,667 --> 00:22:00,940 this. This is these 3 young men, and they're being told, you will worship our 332 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:06,213 idol or you're going in this fiery furnace. People were dying just getting it 333 00:22:06,213 --> 00:22:11,486 hot enough. And they say this, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us, and 334 00:22:11,486 --> 00:22:16,759 he will deliver us. But if not, we will not serve your God. 335 00:22:16,759 --> 00:22:17,029 Mm-hmm. 336 00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:21,836 And I think it's that thing of, God can, God will, but should he not, he has a 337 00:22:21,836 --> 00:22:26,642 greater plan. And, um, and I think for me about trusting God, because stuff— you 338 00:22:26,642 --> 00:22:31,447 have to see, it's like you go from one trouble to the next, or from one 339 00:22:31,447 --> 00:22:36,253 situation that's flooding into you, like, to the next. But knowing that he is 340 00:22:36,253 --> 00:22:41,059 there because he said he would be, and he walks it with us. 341 00:22:41,059 --> 00:22:45,339 Yeah, I love that, Dave. And, and, you know, that, that whole idea of even if 342 00:22:45,339 --> 00:22:49,619 not, it's just so powerful. And absolutely, I know in difficult times I've I've 343 00:22:49,619 --> 00:22:53,899 had to make that decision as well, where it's like choosing to believe God that 344 00:22:53,899 --> 00:22:58,180 if you kind of heal or fix the situation in the way that I want you to do, then 345 00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:02,460 that's wonderful. But even if not, yeah, I, I'm choosing to trust that you've 346 00:23:02,460 --> 00:23:06,740 got my life and you've got a plan for my future and that you're in control of 347 00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:11,019 everything anyway. 348 00:23:11,019 --> 00:23:11,309 Yeah. 349 00:23:11,309 --> 00:23:15,391 That's challenging, isn't it? And Katharine touched on this, but people do often 350 00:23:15,391 --> 00:23:19,472 walk away from their faith when they hit hard times and I'm sure we all know 351 00:23:19,472 --> 00:23:23,553 people, like each of us around the table, who've kind of hit something difficult 352 00:23:23,553 --> 00:23:27,634 and they've been faced with that kind of decision. And it's like, this, this is 353 00:23:27,634 --> 00:23:31,716 too much, it's asking too much of me. Or maybe they just hadn't been prepared 354 00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:35,797 for the fact that they would have troubles as a Christian. Maybe, maybe faith 355 00:23:35,797 --> 00:23:39,878 had been too shallow, or they just misunderstood that Christianity doesn't take 356 00:23:39,878 --> 00:23:43,960 all your problems away necessarily. 357 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:44,150 Yes. 358 00:23:44,650 --> 00:23:48,660 And I just love that bit that you said, Sharon, um, when you pointed out, um, 359 00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:52,670 where is it? Yeah, John 16:16, I think it was. Like, I've told you all this, you 360 00:23:52,670 --> 00:23:56,680 don't fall away. 361 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:57,069 Yes. 362 00:23:57,069 --> 00:24:02,869 I've never noticed that verse before. I'm like, oh, Jesus is explaining this. 363 00:24:02,869 --> 00:24:03,190 Yes. 364 00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:05,079 Because he knows that we'll struggle with it. 365 00:24:05,079 --> 00:24:05,609 Yes. 366 00:24:05,609 --> 00:24:09,039 And he's saying, don't fall away when things get tough. Trust me in it and trust 367 00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,470 that I've got a bigger purpose and plan. 368 00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:13,029 Yeah. 369 00:24:13,339 --> 00:24:17,319 it's really worth reading the whole teaching that he does before this, like 370 00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:21,299 preparing them, because this is, this is just one verse of a— 371 00:24:21,299 --> 00:24:22,069 Yeah. 372 00:24:22,069 --> 00:24:25,769 A big passage. There's so much in it. Um, and as I was preparing, it's just 373 00:24:25,769 --> 00:24:29,470 like, I totally recommend preparing a talk even if you're never going to give 374 00:24:29,470 --> 00:24:33,170 one, because you get so much from it. 375 00:24:33,170 --> 00:24:33,569 Yes. 376 00:24:33,569 --> 00:24:37,853 Just reading through all this stuff and like thinking, okay, why is Jesus saying 377 00:24:37,853 --> 00:24:42,137 this? And yeah, and, um, You're talking about the bit about people falling away. 378 00:24:42,137 --> 00:24:46,421 It also reminded me of the parable of the sower. So for those who don't know, it 379 00:24:46,421 --> 00:24:50,704 talks about a sower who went out to sow and the seed fell on different types of 380 00:24:50,704 --> 00:24:54,988 soil. And there was, I think it was the rocky soil where the plants grew up, but 381 00:24:54,988 --> 00:24:59,272 then they shriveled because the roots weren't deep enough. And he's talking 382 00:24:59,272 --> 00:25:03,556 about that. That's like when we're— when our faith is just a shallow faith, when 383 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:07,839 trouble or persecution comes. 384 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:08,259 Yeah. 385 00:25:08,579 --> 00:25:12,029 we fall away. So that all ties in as well. So I guess the question would be, 386 00:25:12,029 --> 00:25:15,480 how, how do we not have a shallow faith? How do we have a deeper faith? Any— 387 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,930 just throw that one out there. 388 00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:23,360 But it's got to go back to the church, I think, you know, because lots of 389 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,789 people, they, they hear a gospel that is, come to Jesus and everything's been— 390 00:25:27,789 --> 00:25:32,220 is good, God's got a plan for you, like. But that's, that's, that's a cheap 391 00:25:32,220 --> 00:25:36,650 gospel, you know. I really believe that's a cheap— I believe it's a lie as well. 392 00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:41,079 You know, because, um, you know, people come to faith and, and they go through 393 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:45,509 all sorts of things. But it's, it's not about coming to Jesus to get a better 394 00:25:45,509 --> 00:25:49,940 life, you know, to get a do-over type of thing or an upgrade. It's about coming 395 00:25:49,940 --> 00:25:54,369 to Jesus and surrendering your life and submitting your life to his will. And, 396 00:25:54,369 --> 00:25:58,799 um, so I think it starts, you know, with the church. I think it's teaching 397 00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:03,230 people, you know, who Jesus is, you know, and what has God Why did God send 398 00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:07,659 Jesus? And as you read the New Testament— somebody said to me a number of times 399 00:26:07,659 --> 00:26:12,089 last year, I'm nurturing some people, how do I nurture them? 400 00:26:12,089 --> 00:26:12,490 Mm-hmm. 401 00:26:12,490 --> 00:26:17,574 And I said, well, if it was me, I would get them to read Matthew, Mark, Luke, 402 00:26:17,574 --> 00:26:22,658 and John, and when they finished, get them to read it again and maybe spend 403 00:26:22,658 --> 00:26:27,742 maybe 2 years, which does not fit our world's thinking. But what about the Old 404 00:26:27,742 --> 00:26:32,827 Testament? After 2 years or so reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, You get to 405 00:26:32,827 --> 00:26:37,911 know the Father's heart. You get to know what the cross entailed. You get to 406 00:26:37,911 --> 00:26:42,995 know the victory that Jesus brought and paid for in full. And I think there has 407 00:26:42,995 --> 00:26:48,079 to be an investment. You know, there's no question over the seed. 408 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:49,039 Mm-hmm. 409 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:53,778 You know, when in all those different situations, and there's no question of 410 00:26:53,778 --> 00:26:58,517 whether the seed's good and it has the capability of reproducing, has the 411 00:26:58,517 --> 00:27:03,255 capability of flourishing, you know. And, um, I think we need to really just be 412 00:27:03,255 --> 00:27:07,994 conscious of that seed. And just, you know, one final thing, you know, we 413 00:27:07,994 --> 00:27:12,732 talked, we listed like those difficult things, you know, like grief, you know, 414 00:27:12,732 --> 00:27:17,471 um, you know, through, whether it's through, you know, bereavement or whatever 415 00:27:17,471 --> 00:27:22,210 it is. And they are really real things. 416 00:27:22,210 --> 00:27:22,559 Mm-hmm. 417 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:28,238 And we all go through life with, you know, with seeing brokenness to ourselves 418 00:27:28,238 --> 00:27:33,917 or people around us. And also, before I became a church minister, I am— I was a 419 00:27:33,917 --> 00:27:39,596 nurse, and part of my job was to work with families whose children were going to 420 00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:45,275 die. And, um, far too many times, even though it was a privilege to be in that 421 00:27:45,275 --> 00:27:50,953 position, you know, I had to walk through that with parents whose children died. 422 00:27:50,953 --> 00:27:56,632 And, um, I used to come away thinking, I don't know how you do that. without 423 00:27:56,632 --> 00:28:02,311 having Christ in your life. It's just, for me, just far too overwhelming, um, 424 00:28:02,311 --> 00:28:07,990 without knowing that there's somebody bigger than this, you know, and it's God. 425 00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:09,559 Yeah, yeah. 426 00:28:10,329 --> 00:28:14,676 I, I think it's really interesting, that point you raised, Dave, um, about we 427 00:28:14,676 --> 00:28:19,023 all have a responsibility as the church, and by that I mean like all of us who 428 00:28:19,023 --> 00:28:23,369 are Christians believers, we're all the church, and we do have a responsibility 429 00:28:23,369 --> 00:28:27,716 not to undersell the gospel or make it sound easier than it is, because being a 430 00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:32,063 Christian isn't easy all the time. And what God asks of us is our whole lives, 431 00:28:32,063 --> 00:28:36,410 as you pointed out. 432 00:28:36,410 --> 00:28:36,680 Yeah. 433 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,757 It is worth it. It's not easy, but it's worth it. But the, the other thing that 434 00:28:40,757 --> 00:28:44,835 I think is— it's so part of it is on the church, but I also think, and I was 435 00:28:44,835 --> 00:28:48,913 thinking this as you were talking, it's also about individuals taking some 436 00:28:48,913 --> 00:28:52,991 responsibility as well for their own growth. So I, I mean, one of the ways that 437 00:28:52,991 --> 00:28:57,068 I think anyone can get a really good start, part of it is reading scripture and 438 00:28:57,068 --> 00:29:01,146 doing that and reading about the life of Jesus and just getting into scripture 439 00:29:01,146 --> 00:29:05,224 daily or as often as you can and just really getting to know this Jesus who 440 00:29:05,224 --> 00:29:09,302 you've— who you follow. But I also think the other thing is like, do the Alpha 441 00:29:09,302 --> 00:29:13,380 course. 442 00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:13,650 Yes. 443 00:29:13,650 --> 00:29:18,780 Like, that is— we're talking about good foundations and good roots, and I think 444 00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:23,910 that is a really good basis for starting the Christian faith on sort of right 445 00:29:23,910 --> 00:29:29,039 footing with— like, it's a 14 or 15 week course and it takes you through a lot 446 00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:34,170 of the basics of Christianity. And it's not a quick emotional decision. 447 00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:34,609 That's right. 448 00:29:34,609 --> 00:29:38,911 It's like looking at all the evidence and understanding what it truly means to 449 00:29:38,911 --> 00:29:43,212 follow Jesus over a number of weeks and discussing that with others. And I 450 00:29:43,212 --> 00:29:47,513 think, you know, it— that is just such a good foundation. And we're running them 451 00:29:47,513 --> 00:29:51,814 at the moment, and we're running an Alpha course at the moment. in Crowd, and 452 00:29:51,814 --> 00:29:56,115 we've done previous ones. And if you're watching this tonight and thinking, I'm 453 00:29:56,115 --> 00:30:00,416 not sure if my foundations are that strong, whether you've been a Christian for 454 00:30:00,416 --> 00:30:04,717 a week or you're not a Christian, you're just looking at the Christian faith, or 455 00:30:04,717 --> 00:30:09,018 you've been a Christian for years but you think, I'm not sure how my foundations 456 00:30:09,018 --> 00:30:13,319 are, I recommend anyone signs up and does that. I think, um, you know, I, I grew 457 00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:17,620 up in a Christian family, so I was always around church from a very young age, 458 00:30:17,620 --> 00:30:21,921 as young as I can remember. But I still went to university and did the Alpha 459 00:30:21,921 --> 00:30:26,222 course because I wanted to be sure that my own roots were good and that I was— I 460 00:30:26,222 --> 00:30:30,523 knew what I believed and that I was sure why I believed what I believed. And I, 461 00:30:30,523 --> 00:30:34,824 like, I would encourage anyone to do it at any point in there. It's not just for 462 00:30:34,824 --> 00:30:39,126 new believers, it's for anyone who wants to kind of look at it again and, and 463 00:30:39,126 --> 00:30:43,427 make sure they've got good foundations. But if you are interested in doing it, 464 00:30:43,427 --> 00:30:47,728 Crowd is running every Wednesday, um, so it's 7:30. Um, so yeah, it started last 465 00:30:47,728 --> 00:30:52,029 week, but it's not too late to join. Matt and Sharon are involved, so come 466 00:30:52,029 --> 00:30:56,330 along. And you can, you can come and, um, just observe, like, like the same as 467 00:30:56,330 --> 00:31:00,631 watching Crowd, just watch from a distance. Or you can kind of, you can have 468 00:31:00,631 --> 00:31:04,932 your camera on or off. So yeah, just come and listen, or you can ask questions 469 00:31:04,932 --> 00:31:09,233 if you want to. But I'd encourage anyone to do that. And if you're not free on a 470 00:31:09,233 --> 00:31:13,534 Wednesday or that doesn't work for you, then There's tons of other Alpha courses 471 00:31:13,534 --> 00:31:17,835 happening across the UK. Loads of local churches run them. There's loads online. 472 00:31:17,835 --> 00:31:22,136 So just find one or grab the book even and just, just get deeper into that. So 473 00:31:22,136 --> 00:31:26,437 that, that's one thing practically that everyone can do to kind of strengthen 474 00:31:26,437 --> 00:31:30,738 their own faith as well. Um, is there anything else you want to add about that, 475 00:31:30,738 --> 00:31:35,039 Sharon? 476 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:36,849 No, I've got another question for me though. 477 00:31:36,849 --> 00:31:37,490 Go on then. 478 00:31:37,490 --> 00:31:40,744 So, so Dave, you talked about it's not so much where the trouble comes, it's 479 00:31:40,744 --> 00:31:44,000 your response to it. 480 00:31:44,049 --> 00:31:44,160 Yes. 481 00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:48,545 I was just wondering for you guys, you've kind of answered this But what has 482 00:31:48,545 --> 00:31:52,859 stopped you from going, God, you— this is— I don't like this trouble. 483 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:53,549 Why? 484 00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:56,496 You're all-powerful, you're all-loving, why are you not stopping it? What 485 00:31:56,496 --> 00:31:58,813 stopped you from walking away, thinking those things and walking away? What 486 00:31:58,813 --> 00:32:01,130 keeps you with God? 487 00:32:01,130 --> 00:32:06,341 We live in the same world as everybody else does, but hopefully we're walking in 488 00:32:06,341 --> 00:32:11,553 somebody else's footsteps. And, um, my story is that, you know, I've got— you 489 00:32:11,553 --> 00:32:16,765 know, we've all been through horrendous things, you know, either personally or 490 00:32:16,765 --> 00:32:21,977 to affect our families, our community. But, you know, scripture says this, and, 491 00:32:21,977 --> 00:32:27,189 and for me, um, I, I just have to go back. I don't like being in the midst of 492 00:32:27,189 --> 00:32:32,401 chaos and pain and brokenness. Who does, you know? Um, but, you know, scripture 493 00:32:32,401 --> 00:32:37,613 in James 1:2 says, consider it all— sorry, consider it pure joy. And I'm like, 494 00:32:37,613 --> 00:32:42,825 are you kidding me? See, can I just tell you, my friends, God wants those 495 00:32:42,825 --> 00:32:48,036 conversations. And you can have these, that type of conversation in an Alpha 496 00:32:48,036 --> 00:32:53,248 course. You know, are you kidding me? You know, how does this work in this 497 00:32:53,248 --> 00:32:58,460 situation? You know, consider it pure joy. God, are you— come on. You know, and 498 00:32:58,460 --> 00:33:03,672 he says, whenever you face trials. And, you know, for me in that, is it It just 499 00:33:03,672 --> 00:33:08,884 makes me think, God, you know, and I say this a lot on Crowd, you know, I grab 500 00:33:08,884 --> 00:33:14,096 hold— sometimes I can only grab hold of God and his word. And he, you know, and 501 00:33:14,096 --> 00:33:19,308 he says, you know, in the context of what we're talking about this evening, I 502 00:33:19,308 --> 00:33:24,519 will never leave you or abandon you. 503 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:24,809 Mm-hmm. 504 00:33:24,809 --> 00:33:29,557 And I can only say, for me, that verse, those verses, it's in the Old Testament 505 00:33:29,557 --> 00:33:34,305 and in the New Testament, that Just, and just like, puts its arms around me and 506 00:33:34,305 --> 00:33:39,053 hold me when I want to wobble, when I want to look over my shoulder, when I want 507 00:33:39,053 --> 00:33:43,801 to consider going a different way, when I want to consider giving in. You know, 508 00:33:43,801 --> 00:33:48,548 I'm just like, God says he'll never leave me or abandon me. It also says in 509 00:33:48,548 --> 00:33:53,296 Psalms, where can I go with God? Because, you know, I can give up on God, I can 510 00:33:53,296 --> 00:33:58,044 turn away, I can have, you know, me tantrum. He's my Heavenly Father. And he 511 00:33:58,044 --> 00:34:02,792 says, I'm just stood here, son. And the safest place for any of us are in his 512 00:34:02,792 --> 00:34:07,539 arms. 513 00:34:07,539 --> 00:34:11,971 I think that's really right, Dave. And I, I was just reflecting on Sharon's 514 00:34:11,971 --> 00:34:16,403 question as well, and I, I kind of— my answer is similar in that I think, where 515 00:34:16,403 --> 00:34:20,835 else? But I mean, in a way, I'm a bit more pragmatic about it. Like, I think, 516 00:34:20,835 --> 00:34:25,268 you know, it's not just like It's great to have God's presence, but it's also 517 00:34:25,268 --> 00:34:29,699 like, where else would I go? 518 00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:30,190 Yes. 519 00:34:30,190 --> 00:34:33,672 Do you know, like, this world, we will all have troubles. You'll have trouble 520 00:34:33,672 --> 00:34:37,154 whether you walk with God in this world or you walk without God. You know, I 521 00:34:37,154 --> 00:34:40,637 have cancer, losing parents, miscarriage, whatever it is, long-term health 522 00:34:40,637 --> 00:34:44,119 problems. 523 00:34:44,190 --> 00:34:44,559 Totally. 524 00:34:44,829 --> 00:34:47,440 You know, I have a lot of friends in this season of life that are going through 525 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,050 those things, both Christian and not. 526 00:34:50,110 --> 00:34:50,199 Yeah. 527 00:34:50,530 --> 00:34:54,875 Divorces. Yeah. Like family breakdowns. all kinds of things. But I know that 528 00:34:54,875 --> 00:34:59,220 personally, I would rather walk those difficult things with God than walk them 529 00:34:59,220 --> 00:35:03,566 alone. And I think it's a similar thing to you, Dave. So, so for me, I'm just 530 00:35:03,566 --> 00:35:07,911 like, I'm quite pragmatic about it. Like, well, these things, these troubles are 531 00:35:07,911 --> 00:35:12,257 there whether you walk it with God or not. Why wouldn't you choose to do it with 532 00:35:12,257 --> 00:35:16,602 the one, the hope of God's presence and that experience of God walking with you 533 00:35:16,602 --> 00:35:20,948 and not being kind of lost and on your own in the middle of it. But also, like, 534 00:35:20,948 --> 00:35:25,293 it's a twofold hope. So it's a hope of God's presence here with you now in the 535 00:35:25,293 --> 00:35:29,639 middle of it, carrying you, supporting you, helping you, um, you know, 536 00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:33,984 comforting you if you're grieving, whatever it is. But it's also a hope of 537 00:35:33,984 --> 00:35:38,329 eternity, that one day, you know— 538 00:35:38,329 --> 00:35:39,119 Yes. 539 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:43,660 Those things won't be trouble. There won't be trouble anymore. One day God will 540 00:35:43,660 --> 00:35:48,201 make it right again. And so there's a hope now, and there's a hope in eternity. 541 00:35:48,201 --> 00:35:52,742 I'm like, For me, it mind-boggles a little bit because I'm like, well, why would 542 00:35:52,742 --> 00:35:57,283 you throw away that hope? Then you're just kind of less with— left with the 543 00:35:57,283 --> 00:36:01,824 hopelessness of the situation. The situation's the same, but now there's no hope 544 00:36:01,824 --> 00:36:06,364 in that situation. So I know when I've been in those situations where I'm like, 545 00:36:06,364 --> 00:36:10,905 well, this is really difficult and I'm struggling to trust God, I'm still like, 546 00:36:10,905 --> 00:36:15,446 I want— I'm like desperately clinging on to God, really. I'm like, I can't do 547 00:36:15,446 --> 00:36:19,987 this without the hope that God's there somewhere in the middle of all the mess 548 00:36:19,987 --> 00:36:24,528 and pain. Like, so, so for me, it's like, I can't imagine wanting to let go of 549 00:36:24,528 --> 00:36:29,069 that. Like, it's— for me, it's an easier option to walk with God in the midst of 550 00:36:29,069 --> 00:36:33,610 pain than apart from him. But that, that, that's just been my experience. 551 00:36:33,610 --> 00:36:38,750 But, and there's a story in that, isn't there? You know, um, a friend of ours, 552 00:36:38,750 --> 00:36:43,889 Ruth Richardson, She died of cancer a few years ago. Just a young woman. 553 00:36:43,889 --> 00:36:45,260 She was the same age as me. 554 00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:47,380 And she had 2 children. 555 00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:47,949 2 children, yeah. 556 00:36:47,949 --> 00:36:53,515 Early teens maybe, or just coming to the teens. And, um, just a lovely, lovely 557 00:36:53,515 --> 00:36:59,080 lady. And, you know, she got sick one summer, diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. 558 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,645 And, um, you know, obviously horrendous. And the prognosis, there wasn't one. 559 00:37:04,645 --> 00:37:10,211 You know, death was, was coming and I remember visiting her on a number of 560 00:37:10,211 --> 00:37:15,776 occasions, and, um, just before she died, we talked about death and, and a whole 561 00:37:15,776 --> 00:37:21,341 host of things. And, um, and, and even into her really worst days, you know, I 562 00:37:21,341 --> 00:37:26,906 remember being sat there with her and, and we, and we laughed when we were 563 00:37:26,906 --> 00:37:32,472 talking about the goodness of God and about, you know, God telling her, um, 564 00:37:32,472 --> 00:37:38,037 giving her a story. And, um, you know, I know he As I've talked about Ruth to my 565 00:37:38,037 --> 00:37:43,602 friends who have died in the last 12 months, because Ruth's story was right in 566 00:37:43,602 --> 00:37:49,167 the midst of it all. God was right there with her, and she knew God's presence 567 00:37:49,167 --> 00:37:54,733 in amongst the pain and all the stuff that end-of-life care brings. He was 568 00:37:54,733 --> 00:38:00,298 there, and I was able to share, um, her story. And, and Ruth had this line, and 569 00:38:00,298 --> 00:38:05,863 it was this, that The last year of her life was the best year of being a 570 00:38:05,863 --> 00:38:11,428 Christian. Her prayer life changed, her family life changed. There was just a 571 00:38:11,428 --> 00:38:16,994 greater intimacy. And I've been able to share that with another 40-year-old lady 572 00:38:16,994 --> 00:38:22,559 who died of exactly the same disease and a guy in his mid-50s who died of a very 573 00:38:22,559 --> 00:38:28,124 rare cancer. And you know what? They found great comfort in Ruth's story. And 574 00:38:28,124 --> 00:38:33,690 our stories of going through difficulties can bring comfort to others. 575 00:38:33,690 --> 00:38:36,969 We're keeping going. 576 00:38:36,969 --> 00:38:42,836 We're going, right. Yeah. You know, so I, you know, it's so painful, you know, 577 00:38:42,836 --> 00:38:48,703 seeing this lovely young lady just almost as it were dying in front of my eyes, 578 00:38:48,703 --> 00:38:54,570 and yet knowing that God was so present with her. It was just amazing. 579 00:38:54,570 --> 00:38:59,376 Yeah, yeah, just an incredible story. And, um, yeah, I remember that, that time 580 00:38:59,376 --> 00:39:04,183 as well, and just powerful, like, difficult situations, but God's presence in 581 00:39:04,183 --> 00:39:08,989 the midst of it brings hope and meaning, doesn't it? 582 00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:09,239 Yeah. 583 00:39:09,929 --> 00:39:13,821 And there's some interesting questions, comments and questions that are coming 584 00:39:13,821 --> 00:39:17,713 through on the feed, so I'll just read a couple of them out. So we've got Alicia 585 00:39:17,713 --> 00:39:21,605 says, being able to come to God with our frustrations is an underrated ability. 586 00:39:21,605 --> 00:39:25,498 I think to the, to the question, I think what keeps me from walking away is that 587 00:39:25,498 --> 00:39:29,389 even when I'm angry, I feel him with me. 588 00:39:29,449 --> 00:39:29,659 Yes. 589 00:39:29,929 --> 00:39:33,856 And I think that speaks to what you were saying, that, that, yeah, his— that 590 00:39:33,856 --> 00:39:37,783 sense of his presence and his being with you makes such a difference. Yeah, 591 00:39:37,783 --> 00:39:41,710 yeah. Once you've known God's presence, you can't unknow it again, can you? 592 00:39:41,710 --> 00:39:43,179 Yeah. 593 00:39:43,630 --> 00:39:48,365 Um, Ellis says, in regard to faith, one thing I struggle with is For example, 594 00:39:48,365 --> 00:39:53,101 God never said he would do X specifically. So for all I know, bad things, bad 595 00:39:53,101 --> 00:39:57,837 thing X and Y are going to happen. And if I struggle with that, what if? So 596 00:39:57,837 --> 00:40:02,572 basically, yeah, God never— and it's true. And yeah, I don't know if this is, 597 00:40:02,572 --> 00:40:07,308 this is the point of it, but I, I totally agree that it's often Christians are 598 00:40:07,308 --> 00:40:12,044 like, oh, I'm believing for this, I'm believing for that. But often that's more 599 00:40:12,044 --> 00:40:16,780 about our own desires and our own desired projection. 600 00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:17,139 Yeah. 601 00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:21,769 you know, name it and claim it kind of Christianity. And I'm not trying to mock 602 00:40:21,769 --> 00:40:25,980 that, but I do think sometimes it can be dangerous to assume to know— 603 00:40:25,980 --> 00:40:26,739 Absolutely. 604 00:40:26,739 --> 00:40:31,939 What God should do in a situation or what God, yeah, has said in a situation. 605 00:40:31,939 --> 00:40:37,139 Um, and it's quite— I think it can be quite hard to hear God when it's something 606 00:40:37,139 --> 00:40:42,340 so personal or a devastating situation. Like, it's very hard to separate your 607 00:40:42,340 --> 00:40:47,539 own desires and wants and preferences and needs Um, with kind of what God's 608 00:40:47,539 --> 00:40:52,739 doing or saying in a situation. And I think I certainly never know for sure that 609 00:40:52,739 --> 00:40:57,940 God said, I'm going to do X, Y, or Z in a very directive way. 610 00:40:57,940 --> 00:41:02,248 Well, I think it's how we're wired. We receive differently. So there's the 611 00:41:02,248 --> 00:41:06,557 wonderful story, isn't it, where Jesus says to the disciples, we're going to go 612 00:41:06,557 --> 00:41:10,866 across the lake, or, you know, Sea of Galilee, we're going across. Then this 613 00:41:10,866 --> 00:41:15,175 storm comes And, you know, it's horrendous, but these are experienced fishermen. 614 00:41:15,175 --> 00:41:19,484 They should not be surprised. He didn't say, we're gonna go halfway across and 615 00:41:19,484 --> 00:41:23,793 it's gonna sink. You know, so I think, you know, God says, for me, I know the 616 00:41:23,793 --> 00:41:28,102 leading of God in my life. We're going over there, Dave, and that's where I head 617 00:41:28,102 --> 00:41:32,411 for. I don't need GPS coordinates, if that makes sense. Name it and claim it, I 618 00:41:32,411 --> 00:41:36,719 think, is more dangerous than beneficial. 619 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,364 I think we just have to, we just have to hold things lightly, don't we? Like, 620 00:41:39,364 --> 00:41:42,010 even if we believe we have really clearly heard God. 621 00:41:42,010 --> 00:41:42,449 Absolutely. 622 00:41:42,389 --> 00:41:46,282 I think we don't know the how and the when and the why. Like, I always think of 623 00:41:46,282 --> 00:41:50,175 the Israelites in the desert. Like, if you've ever read the book of Exodus, they 624 00:41:50,175 --> 00:41:54,067 wander through the wilderness for 40 years on a journey that could have, like, 625 00:41:54,067 --> 00:41:57,960 geographically could have taken them 20 days. 626 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:58,409 Yeah, yeah. 627 00:41:58,409 --> 00:42:02,321 Because, like, you know, it's, it's not like an A to B journey always with God. 628 00:42:02,321 --> 00:42:06,233 Like, it just always strikes me God's timing is often not ours as well, and the 629 00:42:06,233 --> 00:42:10,145 ways that he works and the like he fulfills his promises, but not necessarily in 630 00:42:10,145 --> 00:42:14,057 our timescale. Or as Sharon said about the cross, it's— it doesn't always happen 631 00:42:14,057 --> 00:42:17,969 the way we expect the rescue to come. 632 00:42:18,210 --> 00:42:18,449 Yeah. 633 00:42:18,610 --> 00:42:21,989 So I— yeah, there's an element for me of like holding, yeah, all of it lightly 634 00:42:21,989 --> 00:42:25,369 before God and just being like, I trust you. 635 00:42:25,659 --> 00:42:25,769 Yeah. 636 00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:28,489 Whatever circumstances come my way. 637 00:42:28,610 --> 00:42:28,719 Yeah. 638 00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:30,800 Which is hard to do, right? 639 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,099 Yeah. 640 00:42:32,949 --> 00:42:37,574 One more comment here. Talita says, I struggle to understand how people who walk 641 00:42:37,574 --> 00:42:42,197 in faith their whole lives stray sometimes when things fall apart. To me, it has 642 00:42:42,197 --> 00:42:46,822 been the opposite. That's an interesting point, isn't it? Because I think for 643 00:42:46,822 --> 00:42:51,445 some people, um, difficult seasons of life definitely do grow their faith. Like, 644 00:42:51,445 --> 00:42:56,070 it's interesting. I guess it comes back to what you said about rootedness. 645 00:42:56,070 --> 00:42:56,659 Yeah, yeah. 646 00:42:56,659 --> 00:43:01,138 But if the roots are good and deep, like Yeah, actually seasons of difficulty, 647 00:43:01,138 --> 00:43:05,616 hardship, suffering in our lives can actually push you closer to God because you 648 00:43:05,616 --> 00:43:10,095 have that really deep sense of urgency about your need for him. And sometimes 649 00:43:10,095 --> 00:43:14,573 I've seen that in friends and in my own life, like you pursue him more urgently 650 00:43:14,573 --> 00:43:19,051 because you need, you need him more desperately perhaps than when everything's 651 00:43:19,051 --> 00:43:23,530 plodding along fine in life. 652 00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:26,940 Yeah, I mean, I think when some, you know, people stray I think, you know, I 653 00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:30,350 mean, that's a bigger conversation than what we have time for here. But, you 654 00:43:30,350 --> 00:43:33,760 know, for me, it's all about being surrendered. 655 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,329 Mm. 656 00:43:34,329 --> 00:43:39,545 If you're surrendered, I think there's less chance for you to be distracted and 657 00:43:39,545 --> 00:43:44,760 go off to do your own things. But, you know, sometimes we say people stray, and 658 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,974 I, I would say now, you know, being a late 60s gentleman, um, that I think just 659 00:43:49,974 --> 00:43:55,190 sometimes they're not doing the Christian life the way I would like them to, you 660 00:43:55,190 --> 00:44:00,405 know, and it doesn't look quite the Christian way that I've done it for my life, 661 00:44:00,405 --> 00:44:05,619 but they still have an experience and they still love God because they may give 662 00:44:05,619 --> 00:44:10,835 up on God, but God's not going to give up on them. You know, just because 663 00:44:10,835 --> 00:44:16,050 they're a lousy disciple doesn't make them a non-Christian again. 664 00:44:16,050 --> 00:44:20,097 You know, it's an interesting Question actually, and this is probably going a 665 00:44:20,097 --> 00:44:24,146 bit off the subject of the talk, but I'm interested in what you think, Dave. So 666 00:44:24,146 --> 00:44:28,193 do you think people can lose their salvation once they've given their life to 667 00:44:28,193 --> 00:44:32,242 God? And well, I know that's a really deep question, but give us like a quick 668 00:44:32,242 --> 00:44:36,289 snapshot. 669 00:44:36,289 --> 00:44:41,474 I'm not— all I would say from my personal experience, I became a Christian from 670 00:44:41,474 --> 00:44:46,658 nothing, but you know, I— and God delivered me from a whole host of things that 671 00:44:46,658 --> 00:44:51,843 were destroying my life, like overnight. For 18 months, I— God did amazing 672 00:44:51,843 --> 00:44:57,027 things, but there was one area in my life that was not surrendered to him, you 673 00:44:57,027 --> 00:45:02,212 know, and I was away after about 18 months for the best part of 2 years, and I 674 00:45:02,212 --> 00:45:07,396 was in a much worse place than I was before I was a Christian. But thank God 675 00:45:07,396 --> 00:45:12,581 that there was a person who was praying for me. And I am— I believe that if you 676 00:45:12,581 --> 00:45:17,765 have surrendered your life to Christ, I don't personally believe that you, you, 677 00:45:17,765 --> 00:45:22,949 you, you can lose your faith. 678 00:45:22,949 --> 00:45:23,190 Mm. 679 00:45:23,190 --> 00:45:28,115 I would say— and yet I swing between both of them, to be honest, because I know 680 00:45:28,115 --> 00:45:33,041 God's such a gracious God, you know, and I believe once you tasted him— I'm 681 00:45:33,041 --> 00:45:37,968 talking about if you've really, if you've really committed your life to God, and 682 00:45:37,968 --> 00:45:42,894 life can be bad and horrendous, you know. And I just don't believe that you can 683 00:45:42,894 --> 00:45:47,820 lose something that is just bestowed upon you, that you receive freely. 684 00:45:47,820 --> 00:45:48,139 Mm-hmm. 685 00:45:48,139 --> 00:45:52,960 I know I walked away. And, you know, and I, I talk very deep between people, you 686 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,779 know, live as disciples of Jesus and, you know, then people turn away just 687 00:45:57,779 --> 00:46:02,599 because they're not living as disciples. You know, I can't— my kids can't un-be. 688 00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:07,420 stop being my kids. They might want to, you know. And, you know, and there are 689 00:46:07,420 --> 00:46:12,239 times I think, you know, um, I don't think you can unfather somebody personally, 690 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:17,059 especially when God has given his Son to die for them, if they've truly 691 00:46:17,059 --> 00:46:21,879 surrendered. But I would take it back to what was the gospel we're preaching, 692 00:46:21,879 --> 00:46:26,699 you know. 693 00:46:26,699 --> 00:46:27,340 Mm. 694 00:46:27,340 --> 00:46:31,414 Are people coming to Christ because they want a better life? you know, your best 695 00:46:31,414 --> 00:46:35,489 life now, living your best life. That's nonsense. You know, it's, do you realise 696 00:46:35,489 --> 00:46:39,565 that you, you know, you're lost and you're going to a lost eternity if you don't 697 00:46:39,565 --> 00:46:43,639 know Christ? And you don't need to because he's died for you. 698 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:47,847 At the same time, I think sometimes people can maybe come to Jesus for the wrong 699 00:46:47,847 --> 00:46:52,054 reasons initially, and then as they get to know him, it's like, oh, I think 700 00:46:52,054 --> 00:46:56,262 maybe all of us at some point have not really been there for all the right 701 00:46:56,262 --> 00:47:00,469 reasons, and are we now even? I don't know. 702 00:47:00,469 --> 00:47:04,699 Well, if you look at Simon the Sorcerer, the Scripture will tell us, and 703 00:47:04,699 --> 00:47:08,929 actually, um, that, you know, we know Simon the Sorcerer, you know, he, he 704 00:47:08,929 --> 00:47:13,159 comes, he responds to the message, he gets baptised, and then God comes— um, 705 00:47:13,159 --> 00:47:17,389 sorry, the apostles come, and, and they're like, um, they see them, you know, 706 00:47:17,389 --> 00:47:21,619 operating in the gifts, and they're like, can I buy it? 707 00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:22,840 Mm-hmm. 708 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,571 Can I buy that off you? And, and that is just, for me, you know, we know Messiah 709 00:47:27,571 --> 00:47:32,302 and the source. We don't know what happens afterwards, you know, but he 710 00:47:32,302 --> 00:47:37,034 definitely made a decision to follow. We know he gets baptised, you know. We're 711 00:47:37,034 --> 00:47:41,765 just wet clay, you know, and we need to be discipled, we need to be nurtured. 712 00:47:41,765 --> 00:47:46,497 And if that doesn't happen, we can't get those things out of Simon. We can't 713 00:47:46,497 --> 00:47:51,228 teach him that the gifts of God, they're free because Jesus paid them all. He's 714 00:47:51,228 --> 00:47:55,960 trying to buy something that God's trying to give him. 715 00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:02,078 Yeah, that's interesting. I think no, no easy answers, is there? But I agree, 716 00:48:02,078 --> 00:48:08,196 really. I'd, I'd like to think that you can't unknow God once you've known him. 717 00:48:08,196 --> 00:48:14,315 You can make choices that are poor, and you can choose to not acknowledge him in 718 00:48:14,315 --> 00:48:20,433 your day-to-day life. You can— your life can look a bit like someone who doesn't 719 00:48:20,433 --> 00:48:26,551 know him quite often. Um, but it doesn't mean that you haven't known God and 720 00:48:26,551 --> 00:48:32,670 that he hasn't known you. And I, I think it's hard to undo that, isn't it? 721 00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:33,719 Yeah. 722 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,865 You know, I don't know if you ever heard the story. Um, I'm not very good at 723 00:48:38,865 --> 00:48:43,731 telling stories, but it basically says the thief on the cross, you know, that 724 00:48:43,731 --> 00:48:48,597 thief on the cross, he goes to heaven, And one of the, you know, one of the 725 00:48:48,597 --> 00:48:53,463 welcomers on the gate says, hi, how are you doing? Um, what's your name? Oh, it 726 00:48:53,463 --> 00:48:58,329 doesn't appear to be here. Just a minute. Um, what's your theory of salvation? I 727 00:48:58,329 --> 00:49:03,195 haven't got one. Okay, what's your theory on the second coming? Don't have one. 728 00:49:03,195 --> 00:49:08,061 And he asked him 7 questions. He said, let me get my supervisor. The supervisor, 729 00:49:08,061 --> 00:49:12,927 probably Peter, comes He said, just let me ask you a question. He said, I don't 730 00:49:12,927 --> 00:49:17,793 have any answers to that. So, well, why are you here? And he says this, because 731 00:49:17,793 --> 00:49:22,659 the man on the cross right next to me said today I'll be with him in paradise. 732 00:49:22,659 --> 00:49:27,525 And it really is that simple that Jesus has paid. And you know what? It's not a 733 00:49:27,525 --> 00:49:32,391 model, okay? I'm not suggesting it's a model because he, I mean— It's a gift. 734 00:49:32,391 --> 00:49:37,257 didn't get baptised, how was he getting into heaven? You know, it's a heart. You 735 00:49:37,257 --> 00:49:42,123 know, sometimes we're asking people to know stuff and do stuff. He's like, God's 736 00:49:42,123 --> 00:49:46,989 heart's much bigger than doing any of those things. 737 00:49:46,989 --> 00:49:51,787 Yeah, so true. Um, I'm aware that time is ticking on, as it always does. It goes 738 00:49:51,787 --> 00:49:56,585 very fast when you're hosting Crowd Church, doesn't it? Um, but I, I suppose, 739 00:49:56,585 --> 00:50:01,382 um, yeah, we'll We'll start wrapping up, but Sharon, have you got any final 740 00:50:01,382 --> 00:50:06,179 thoughts or comments or anything else that you want to add? 741 00:50:06,179 --> 00:50:10,894 I think just the thing of, um, just because stuff comes against us, it doesn't 742 00:50:10,894 --> 00:50:15,608 necessarily mean it's God's will. It's, it's that tension, isn't it, between God 743 00:50:15,608 --> 00:50:20,323 allows it but it doesn't mean it's his will, because he, he tells us to pray 744 00:50:20,323 --> 00:50:25,037 that his kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven, because his will is not 745 00:50:25,037 --> 00:50:29,752 always done. Many people go against his will. And so I think it's just that if 746 00:50:29,752 --> 00:50:34,466 trouble does come against us, I think I'm especially thinking of people who are 747 00:50:34,466 --> 00:50:39,181 in abusive situations, not to think, oh, this is happening, therefore it must be 748 00:50:39,181 --> 00:50:43,895 God's will. Because I think if you're in those situations, it can really 749 00:50:43,895 --> 00:50:48,610 scramble your brain and you can start to think— 750 00:50:48,610 --> 00:50:49,960 Mm-hmm. 751 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,636 So it's not that he doesn't, um, get us out of those situations sometimes, do 752 00:50:53,636 --> 00:50:57,313 you know what I mean? It's like we're not— if we're in that, we're not meant to 753 00:50:57,313 --> 00:51:00,989 stay in that. 754 00:51:01,050 --> 00:51:01,289 Yeah. 755 00:51:01,909 --> 00:51:04,829 Um, yes, it's just really to flag that up, I think. 756 00:51:05,039 --> 00:51:05,219 Yeah. 757 00:51:05,219 --> 00:51:09,543 Yeah, that's a really important point actually. Like, yeah, if you're in a 758 00:51:09,543 --> 00:51:13,866 difficult or unsafe situation, God's not asking you to stay there. Um, Dave, any 759 00:51:13,866 --> 00:51:18,190 final thoughts or comments from you? 760 00:51:18,190 --> 00:51:19,320 Yeah, just one. 761 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:20,539 Amen. 762 00:51:20,539 --> 00:51:26,887 Um, if you don't know Jesus Christ as your own personal Saviour tonight, I want 763 00:51:26,887 --> 00:51:33,235 you to know this: he offers each of us forgiveness, hope, and eternal life. To 764 00:51:33,235 --> 00:51:39,584 all, whoever you are, whatever we've done, wherever we've been, whatever our 765 00:51:39,584 --> 00:51:45,932 story is, he offers those things. To all who put their trust in him. I want to 766 00:51:45,932 --> 00:51:52,280 encourage you, find an Alpha course, join the Alpha course. 767 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,950 Amazing, thanks Dave. So I think we'll wrap up the live stream at this point. 768 00:51:57,950 --> 00:52:03,619 Um, just a final reminder that if you want to carry on this conversation, if you 769 00:52:03,619 --> 00:52:09,289 want to come meet us in the Zoom room, you can join the live lounge. The link 770 00:52:09,289 --> 00:52:14,960 should be in the chat. Um, in the comments. Um, so yeah, it is, I am told. So 771 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:20,630 yeah, come and join us if you want to continue the conversation and meet us in 772 00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:26,300 person. Um, yeah, as Dave said, Alpha's started, so come along on Wednesday at 773 00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:31,969 half 7, um, if you want to join us there. And if not, we will be here again next 774 00:52:31,969 --> 00:52:37,639 Sunday, same time, 7 PM. So we'll see you then and have a great week.