We have Eric Guyer with me here today. You can learn what

his team is up to by heading over to pure assurance.com.

And with my Minnesotan accent, that probably didn't come out quite

great, so it's I'm gonna make sure that is a clickable link in the show

notes. So it's pure assurance.com.

But, Eric, I appreciate your time here today as this is

gonna be an interesting conversation about health insurance.

And I know being self employed in some regards, it's

this is something that is top of mind, especially single

family incomes. These everybody is

gonna kinda struggle with this and how to navigate some of this. So

thanks for your time today as we kinda make sense of some of this world.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's my pleasure, Jack, and thank you for having me on your show.

I'd be interested. The it always fascinates

me, and I don't want you to have to spend a ton of time on

this. But how did you find your way to this niche? I'm sure there's a

story there. Yeah. So I worked on Wall Street on trading desks

for the better part of 2 decades. And

when I was no longer employed in that area,

seeking health insurance was very expensive,

and it it was just it it was exhausting. I ended

up buying into a franchise that didn't really have

any good options either because a franchise organization

cannot insure distinct owners. So it just

kind of led me down the path of solving a problem

that every individual business, not everyone,

but a lot of individual business owners are faced with, as

well as small teams. And that is, how can I

get comprehensive health insurance for me and my family, but also

be able to offer it for employees I for

prospective employees I wanna attract to my business and also

retain? Because I don't wanna lose anybody to what's arguably,

after compensation, the most important benefit that, you

know, that we have. Mhmm. Well, you know, I'd I'd

like to explore some of that, especially when it comes

to entrepreneurs. We got a lot of real estate investors

are gonna be 1 man bands, maybe a couple couple

people Mhmm. Outside of Obamacare

or those directions by your state, what else

would there be? Sure. So if I could just kind of take a background on

what got me into kind of the the the real estate investing space,

is that we're the health insurance provider for Homevestors

1200 plus nationwide franchisees, and we've been so

for the past 5 years. So we have a lot of experience

in working with single owner businesses.

A lot of their franchisees are single

owner or small teams. And what I found

out was a lot of those guys are going

without coverage just because the options are

just too expensive. And, you know,

you know better than anybody how cash intensive, capital

intensive real estate investing is. So it

created an opportunity where, through

private means, we're able to provide

coverage that only that not only frees up liquidity,

but also provides benefits without having to first satisfy deductibles.

So it it was just it happened by happenstance,

but it just it turned out to be an incredibly good

fit for the real estate investor, you know,

partially because they're single owner and, you know, they're

and and it's a very capital intensive business. So how are you pulling

this off? It it kinda sounds like since since

you are the providing health insurance for this

for these this this group of investors, is it

because that's that's a group or an entity and it's kind of

underwritten as a as a corporation in itself,

or is the how how does that piece work? Right.

So when you Homevestor's obviously a franchise organization, and

each one of their owners are distinct, and no

attachments whatsoever to the mother ship other than, you

know, royalties and and that kind of thing. In that sense,

they're really no different than any individual business

owner. They have their own LLCs, and,

you know, it's very difficult for insurance companies

to manage risk on one person

getting insurance, which is why the health

insurance exchanges are so expensive. They

insurance companies need to pad their, you know, premiums

to account for unpredictable risk.

So, you know, that is a is a is a huge

disadvantage to the individual business owner. However,

there are private options that we that we

found. We created a portfolio around it

to be able to offer these owners a

a a very good option that that enables

them to go on their daily business without having to sink,

you know, a $1,000 in for a health insurance

policy while realizing benefits without having

to satisfy $75100 deductibles

before they they see it. So it's

it it and and and the other thing about what I found out about working

with entrepreneurs is that they don't they're not huge users

of health insurance. Like, they'll go for the annual exam,

but they really want asset protection on the upside.

Everybody wants asset protection, but it's more defined

with the individual business owner. I don't wanna go bankrupt

if I have a health event. So when we structure

these plans, we structure with asset protection in

mind. That's the number one the number one

aspect of coverage that we're looking at when we when we cover business

owners. Okay. So could you kinda give us a

kind of a summary of what is a common policy then for

what would people expect here? Yeah. So

the the day to day benefits are extremely generous. They're you

know, each person each insured is looking at something

like 20 doctor visits per calendar year if they want it,

chiropractic benefits, urgent care benefits, obviously,

hospitalization catastrophic. But what

the real value is is that, you know, you

first of all, you don't need referrals to to see a specialist.

That's that's big and pays benefits for all medically necessary

services and procedures. The the fact that, you

know, they somebody can just go to the

doctor and, you know, and not have to

worry, is this or is this not gonna be covered? That's a big one. The

second thing is that it's very flexible. Like,

HomeVestors has investors, for example, who

have properties in multiple states. And

oftentimes, even a PPO plan, a traditional PPO

plan, will not offer benefits other

than emergency ones outside of your

state. So the fact that

it's network agnostic is is is

hugely attractive. You can stay in network, for

example, if you like, and the real benefit to that is that

the convenience of doctors filing claims on your behalf, but you

literally can go anywhere you want. You would just pay and

and and get reimbursed. So there's a flexibility

there that does not exist with with a traditional health

insurance plan. You know, another aspect of

this coverage, which in my opinion is a game changer, is that

I don't know if you are are familiar with direct primary care

providers. They're getting very big around the country. It's like a it's a

membership based primary care model

where you you essentially have 247 access

to to your doctor, whether that be through text, through

video chat, or go see a or or go to the office. You don't have

to wait 3 weeks. You can pretty much get in same day if you need

to. I am such a member of a practice. Now if

you have traditional coverage, let's just use Blue Cross Blue

Shield as an example, the any

any monthly membership fees that you're paying to

the concierge doctor or direct primary care

provider is a sunk cost. You don't get that

back. With private coverage, you

get reimbursed for each visit that you

go to to such a doctor, and that offsets

your membership fees. So, like, for me, for

example, I pay $85 a month to go to a direct

primary care provider, and I can see her as much as I

want. This insurance reimburses

me a $160 each time I

go because that's my office visit benefit.

So it's you know, I'm basically paying

for my DPC membership fees

through insurance that's as much as 60%

less than a traditional silver Blue

Cross Blue Blue Cross Blue Shield plan anyway.

So, you know, it's it's it's basically you're you're double dipping in a

way. Right? So that's what I love about it.

I'm a healthy guy, but I go to the doctor

when I'm not feeling well now because it's so easy for me to get

in. And I know that every time I go, I'm going to be

reimbursed. So that incentivizes me to go, which is

another great point. This coverage

rewards you for going to the doctor.

It's what it it takes away one of the one

of the biggest stumbling blocks to going, which is,

you know, I know I have insurance. I could go. I I just pay this

co pay, so on and so forth. But this kind of adds gamification to it

a little bit where if you know that you're gonna go and

get paid for it, you know, it it'll make you more likely

to, you know, to get that EKG that you've been putting

off or the colonoscopy or whatever. I mean, I'm in my

fifties. That's that's a reality for me right

now. But just for things that you normally

wouldn't do, it's it's much better because we all

know how important early detection is for,

you know, for cancers, for pretty much any

any illness that's out there? Well, I think a lot

of investors or or entrepreneurs for that matter, they're kinda

looking for a possibly, for a situation where you can kinda

set it and forget it and try to save the the money.

Yeah. It almost sounds like there's some management on

our end asking for reimbursement and and the like. Is

am I mistaken there? If for a DPC provider,

yes. For an in network provider, just

the regular doctor, no. It it's it it works the

same way from a claims perspective. But I was I was just kind

of illustrating the flexibility that if you or

your family had was a member of a DPC

practice, that would not be a sunken cost like it would be

with a traditional plan Sure. Would get money back

for going, which would offset that DPC fee. But in

terms of going to, you know, your regular doctor or

specialist, as you do now, they

can, provide their network, they can just file claims on on your

behalf. So with what people are experiencing

now when it comes to insurance, health insurance, the the

cost is astronomical sometimes. It's just almost

like you pointed out, it's almost cost prohibitive in some regards. Yeah.

Could you do a quick comparison as to what can people traditionally

expect here? On a premium perspective. Yeah.

Somebody in their twenties for full coverage with catastrophic,

somewhere between 20225 a month. In their

thirties, maybe that goes up to 250, 275.

Forties, 335, 350, and

so on and so forth from there. It's it's age age

specific because as we get older, you know, more things go

wrong with us. We we use the doctors more, and there's more

risk to the insurance company. So it's totally age driven. The

premiums do not rise with number of claims or

dollar value of claims. It's coverage that can be kept

till 65 years of age if you like, at which point we go we

all go on Medicare in this country. And, you

know, a more flexible policy, we have not found.

It it it really if you're living in Texas, for example, and you

move to Virginia, it would probably be the other way around,

but let's just use that as an example. The coverage would work just as

well in Virginia as it would in Texas mainly

because, first of all, you could see anybody you want. And secondly, it is

a nationwide network of nearly a 1000000

providers. Obviously Just from Yeah.

No. Go ahead. I was gonna say the major hospitals are all,

you know, in network and, you know, it's it's it's

exceedingly easy to to find providers. So just to

remind everybody, head over to prosurancedot com to learn a

little bit more about what we're talking about here and and maybe connect with Eric

and his team. And if you found some value in what we're talking about

so far, share this episode with one of your investor friends.

And if you're watching us on YouTube, do us a quick favor and give us

a thumbs up and, subscribe. So,

Eric, you're you're gonna have to give us the down and dirty here.

What are the gotchas? Because some of the numbers you've been throwing out,

the the the premiums for for

that matter seem very low in comparison to what

I've experienced anyway Yeah. In regards to that. The numbers

you're throwing out actually are are quite a bit lower than what,

at one time, I was paying biweekly.

Levis. Oh, from employer coverage. Right. Like

but but that was still my portion. Yeah. So

what how is this possible, and what are some of the

gotchas here? No maternity coverage, and

you do have to be reasonably healthy to qualify for the coverage.

So no cancer in the last 5 years, no

insulin dependent diabetes, immune related

illnesses, and musculoskeletal stuff like MS would be

knockout, and heart attack, cardiovascular disease,

stroke, that kind of thing. The the the really ugly stuff

that you really should be on a traditional plan for.

But if you are reasonably healthy, and we've done

some analyses, and from the from what we've learned from Homevestors,

about 75 to 80 percent of the entrepreneurial community qualifies for

it. So if you don't need pregnancy coverage,

which is a kind of a scam in itself, and we can go into that

if you like, and you are reasonably healthy. This

is a a a very good value proposition for the

independent business owner. And what is the process in validating

that type of information? Oh, and it's

there's no physicals. It's questions. And

based on that, the insurance companies do their

underwriting. They basically look at prescription history. Prescription

history tells a lot. And if there's anything ominous in that, they'll

ask for more information and make a

decision based on that. You know? And

it's actually really good to go through an underwriting process with

insurance because I've encountered a lot of situations where

there's been wrong information on a medical report.

And with wrong information on a medical report,

that could kill your chances of getting life insurance,

long term care coverage, you know, anything in the future

where underwriting is important. And you can have your

medical history changed. You know, you just have to

go to the doctor and and have it changed. But I I

actually was just talking to somebody who they

there was stroke written all over their medical records, and this guy did

not have a stroke. He was in Denver and the

skiing, and he had a faint episode

because because of the air there. Right? Mile High City and

all that kind of stuff. And they wrote stroke because of it, possible

stroke. And when he saw that,

you know, it was like a wake up call. He's like, I didn't have a

stroke. And, you know, lo and behold, he was able to go back

and have his medical records changed and, you

know, and and coverage was was doable for him. But that would

have presented a lot of problems. For the one part is he's

actually launching he's a key man in a in a new

company venture that's getting outside money. So

with his with his medical record the way it was,

he wouldn't be able to get Keyman life insurance.

So this actually was fortuitous in

that he was able to do this before,

you know, a lot of this stuff came up. Well, I'm gonna put you on

the spot. You used the words scam when it comes

to, you know, pregnancies. Yeah. And then in cover.

What what were you referring to there, and what others, quote,

unquote, scams are there in the marketplace that we should be aware of?

Cash prices for pregnancies are between $510,000

depending upon where you have it done. Meaning that you can go and say, here's

$5,000. Here's $8,000, and

and and the pregnancy is done. You pretty much pay the

same thing because it's marked up so much for the

chargemaster price at hospitals, which is akin to

MSRP on cars before discounts. So when

insurance companies, when they when when they

determine benefits, the the part that you have to

pay, it's based on that high number. But the

reality is for them and for everyone else, it's about

half that. So every you know,

you think you're going in and, oh, yeah. I need maternity coverage, but at the

end of the day, you're probably gonna pay the same thing by being

a cash payer, maybe less. I've seen them as low as $45100

for a regular delivery than you will

for having insurance, unless you're on a very

low deductible plan, which is very

expensive. Very, very expensive. Well, you know,

could you ascertain then? You know, you point out one

scenario there, but is that the case for the majority of

the health care that we receive? Is that the the prices are just

completely blown up, and it's primarily because of the insurance

companies? Yep. Yeah. There's there's a lot and

and kickbacks to providers and and facilities.

You know, when you go just to get labs

12, like, you could get a full thing of labs, a

full panel of labs, and see a $1200

bill on that. The real price could be 10% of

that. And, you know, you could go to and here

here's just a a place to go. Go to walk in lab.com,

book lab tests through LabCorp or Quest,

and you're gonna pay rock bottom prices. Why is that?

Because there's kickbacks to the providers that are referring them

to these labs. And a lot of times, those kickbacks are

pretty material. So it's there's a

lot of there's a lot of mouths to feed in the health care

slash health insurance industry. And, you

know, what we advocate for is complete transparency.

And this coverage that we do offer,

it it it it offers benefits at the true price

of care. And, you know, that's why

they can afford to be so generous is because,

a, yeah, it's the true price of care, and and, b,

you know, you're going in as a reasonably healthy person. So based on

their actuarial metrics, you're not gonna be a big

user of coverage, and they're gonna make a lot of money off of

it. So you know? But that said, I

I I have clients, young clients in their twenties,

who pretty much they negate

their annual premium bill

through excess. If you have a benefit

through insurance that's higher than what a provider

is owed, you're going to get the difference back to

you. Let me let me just kind of illustrate that very,

very easily. So on the top level of coverage for one

particular plan, the the chiropractor

benefit is a $160 per visit, and you can use that

6 times a year. I pay $40 to go to the chiropractor.

So that means since my benefit is 1.60 and

it costs me $40 to go to the chiropractor, I'm going

to get that difference or a $120

back each time I go, and I can do that up to 6 times

per calendar year. That's huge. That's a $960

benefit. That's an that offsets my premiums. So in

you know, if you're a 25 year old who's paying

202.25 a month for insurance, you know, that let's

just call it $24100 a year, You're getting a $960

benefit that's probably gonna cost you 2.40, you

know, 40 times 6. And then the difference,

$720, effectively offsets your annual premium. So your premiums

just went from 24100 to 24100

minus $700, which is the excess

represents the excess benefit of those 6 annual chiropractor

visits. That that's that's really interesting

because more times than not, the insurance that that I've experienced,

it doesn't really matter what the chiropractor charges. That's what the

insurance company provides. Yeah. I don't I would never

see any kind of excess funds back to me. Yeah.

I had a conversation with this woman, and and and and she she

wasn't getting it because her traditional

insurance policy that she had, she's like, well, I go to the chiropractor,

and I just pay a $50 co pay. I said, I

mean, I I said to her, I said, you know, what if it was

cash? Like, what how how much would you pay if it was cash?

Oh, like, $45. Like, why aren't you paying cash

is my first question. Like, why are you even going through insurance?

Right? And secondly, in in the scenario

of of our coverage, you would make a $115

per visit for 6 visits on that, but you couldn't get

it. You know, this kinda reminds me of a story just

personally because we had to get a prescription

once, and it was a it's an it was an ongoing thing.

So we we went to I asked the

pharmacy once because it was, like, $20 every time. That was

my co pay. $20. Okay. Here's my $20. And I

and I stopped him once and I said, if I would just pay for this,

what what would it be? It was 10. Yeah. Yeah. It was

half if I would just pay for it. Yeah. I was like, why why didn't

you tell me this then? Why why did I have to ask? And

and and then it just leads to why is it cheaper for me

to just buy it. Yeah. And and that I think and so I started to

get into the habit of of asking each time just because,

like you just pointed out, more times than not, it's actually cheaper

than the co pay had been. For a generic for, like, a a

generic? Yeah. Absolutely. Like, if you go to

GoodRx and you take a, you know, a routine

antibiotic like amoxicillin. You know, if if

Walmart, for example, is overstocked in amoxicillin,

it could be free. Right? And and if

you have insurance, you'll go and you'll pay your $20 co pay if you don't

know any better. But why would you pay a $20 co

pay that is free or

dollar or $10 in your case? And

it it just it makes no sense. It's what I do is really

not selling. It's more educated. And people

you know, the the insurance industry and Wall Street does the same thing with

with finance. They create these these elaborate names

and then that nobody understands, so they think only they can

do it. But you start peeling the onion, and you start

seeing how all of this is just a ruse. It's all

smoke and mirrors to justify higher costs.

And the the clients that I have are

much better educated than their

average insured on a traditional plan, which is

essentially a bury your head in the sand, which is

what, you know, the BUCA plans want, which blue BUCA meaning

Blue Cross, UnitedHealthcare, Cigna, Aetna. And, you

know, don't take my my food away from me is

basically their thing. Right? They've they live high in the hog, and there's a lot

of money that they make. And

because people think that health insurance is this

this this, you know, so complicated thing,

and it's really not. It's not at all. It

doesn't have to be. And if you just kind of get a little bit

of education, then, you know, you just

become smarter, and that intelligence

leads to you paying less for coverage. Just to remind

everybody one more time, pure assurance.com. That's gonna be a

clickable link in the show notes. Eric, before we transition

into rapid fire questions here and close out this episode,

I'm sure I'm missing something else here. Is there a question or concept

do you think we should have covered made sure we covered here? You know, I

just would love your viewers to just

take, you know, a little bit of steps just to kind

of ease the burden of their health costs. You know,

if if they need a scan or they need

imaging of some sort, you know, go to go to a website like

greenimaging.net, and, you

know, you'll save 100 of dollars by

getting any kind of ultrasounds or

CT scans by doing that. I have a client who

needed an ultrasound. His doctor was charging him $1500

for the ultrasound through Green Imaging 6 miles

away from his house. He got it for a $110 through an

interview. You have, like, a list of resources like that on your website

anywhere? I don't. I I share them with clients.

I'm happy to put together a list of of things,

and and, you know, you're you're welcome to share them with your readers.

But, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of resources out there to

to save money, especially if you're uninsured. I'm not

advocating for being uninsured and, you know, health insurance at a

reasonable price should be the antidote to,

you know, uninsurance. Because just because you've never had

anything happen to you in the past is no indication

that a serious injury or illness is gonna come out of left field. And I

just kind of want people to understand that. But there

are resources out there, independent imaging centers, you

know, like walk in lab for blood work. That that that's a

fraction of the cost, and they always run specials that make

those costs even less. So, yeah, I'm

I'm happy to put such a document together and and

forward it over to you, which you're welcome to share with your listeners. Yeah. I

I bet you a lot of people would take advantage of that because you

you're absolutely right. Until you become self reliant to a

certain extent, you know, lab work is a great example. I didn't even

really have an idea that there were such companies available.

And then I did a search online a few years back,

found some a place in a strip mall. Walk in,

they do your test, and it was, like you said, a fraction of

the cost. Fraction of the cost. There were it it's the same exact

test that your doctor would order, but you're just cutting out

that that kickback scheme. Yep. And

it's surprisingly easy to understand and read when you got it.

Yeah. Again, it's pure pure assurance dot com.

And, Eric, if you're ready, we'll jump into the rapid fire questions.

Let's do it. So first of all, since you've been working a lot

with entrepreneurs and real estate investors, I'd be curious

what lie do we tell ourselves and sometimes to others?

That you're going to make a $1,000,000 the 1st

year of of investing in properties.

Yeah. Very optimistic. Right?

Overly optimistic. But people tend to

over overestimate results

in, when they go into business.

Do you have a book recommendation, or what are you reading right now?

Yeah. So as fate would had it would have it, I just

finished a book called Predictably Irrational by Dan

Ariely, and it talks about

what we do as human beings that we

think are the right things to do and the right ways

to approach things, but they're completely irrational

in the way we think about it. It's such an easy read, and

it's so good, and it's so enlightening. I think

it's I I think everybody should be reading it, but if you're a

business owner, you're gonna find out a lot of insights

about what makes you tick and what what goes into your

decision making process and what, you know,

takeaways to what you can do to to put

yourself in a better decision making situation. Yeah.

I'm gonna look that one up. Like, we've we have something

my partner and I were talking about just the other night where we're,

for as long as we've been doing this, there's one scenario

where we don't understand

why people act so irrationally. Yeah.

And we it it just has baffled us. And we were talking about it again

just the other night, and we don't we don't understand. So maybe this would give

me the answers. 1 of the major one of the major causes

that that that causes people to act

irrationally is is unpredictable

stress, stress that you didn't see coming

that's overwhelming, that you know, I I I

saw a very disturbing article about a

woman, a normally good woman, who left

her 10 month old who left her infant baby alone while

she went on vacation for 10 days. They the cops

said they've never seen anything so

bad in their life. Obviously, you know, the the the

baby passed from emaciation and

thirst and all this other horrible stuff. But this is

a relatively normal, sane person

when when confronted with all of this stress that she didn't see

coming, does something completely irrational

that Mhmm. That you and I couldn't even fathom

doing. And, yeah, she got life

imprisonment, but that's really not the point of it. The point of it is is

what can we do to to the best

of our ability to ahead of time

to try and prepare ourselves for the kinds

of stresses that are beyond

the normal day to day stressors.

And resiliency is a huge part of that.

You know? So I'm I'm very interested in

concepts that, you know, talk about resiliency

and, and inner strength because, you know, as an

entrepreneur, we don't know what's around the corner. We don't. And I say

we because I'm I'm a business owner too, and

things that kept me up 2 years

ago aren't the thing same things that keep me awake now

because I built resiliency to that. But there's other

stuff. But knowing that you're resilient can

be in and of its in and of itself a a a

great self introspective thing because you

you you become attuned to the fact that you can

deal with anything even when it seems like there's

no good options out there. Mhmm. No. Good point.

If you could go back in time and give your younger self one piece of

advice, what would it be? Be a better student.

Don't don't think that you've got all the answers at a young age.

You know? I I that's that's a big one. Get a mentor,

somebody who you look up to, somebody you trust,

and engage with that because

doing it all on your own is puts a lot of unnecessary

suffering. So that's that's what I would do.

Sure. What single strategy, process, or

tool have you implemented that has the biggest time saving impact?

Virtual assistance. I love them. I love them.

$5 an hour for grunt work that I don't have to hire

for is has been a lifesaver,

absolute lifesaver. I'm a huge, huge fan of virtual

assistants, the right ones. You can get wrong ones, but

do your due diligence and find good virtual assistants

to take off all of the non revenue

producing stuff on your plate as a business owner.

Because I think a lot of business owners confuse

busy with productive. And you don't wanna be

busy doing the wrong things. You wanna be

busy closing business and adding value.

So virtual assistants have been a life saver.

And with virtual assistants, you don't have to worry about, you know,

paying FICA and and all this other stuff. And

at $5 an hour, you're not even gonna be able to get

anything like that anyway.

So, yeah, I'm a big fan. Yeah. I that that

was awesome. I I appreciate you bringing that up because I I,

frankly, I think everybody's tired of hearing me

preach from that pulpit regarding Yeah.

Putting that Great. Like, take it take it off. Be a

delegator. You know? Just focus on on why you're in

business and and growing that that value. Yeah. Well,

Eric, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really

appreciate the value you brought here today. It is pure

assurance.com. That is gonna be clickable in the show notes.

But, Eric, I hope you'll come back again sometime when we can dig in because

I have a feeling you talked about perseverance quite a few times. There must be

a story there that we could dive into. It would be my pleasure.