The answer of we're probably not getting enough or we're probably not getting any is an unacceptable answer that no one would ever hold anybody accountable to. Let's start there. Let's go and get five. just to give you some context, John, basically the main concern that the client has is in regards to lead volume. I've been trying to run the account in broad on a tcpa. I've also tried the account running on exact on a max clicks And i'm all I also recommended them to improve the website because they had a 12 question form That nobody was filling out so they made it shorter and a little more specific for both They're still not happy with the volume. They're getting basically You said they're not happy with the lead quality, but then you said they're not happy with the volume. The only problem is volume. Oh, okay. So if the only problem is volume, why not? Add budget, what did they say when you suggested budgets? We are not spending the full budget yet. We haven't even reached the full budget yet. And the target CPA that they're looking to get it's between 100 and 150. and we're not there yet either. 1 thing. I don't think we're tracking all of the conversions. so they have book an appointment on the homepage that was being tracked, right? Yes, correct. that goes to the thank you page. Okay. what about the chats? So I know that they used to get a lot of chats. and then chats fell off and then they fired the person that was supposed to fix it. And then the other person became disinterested. And then the other person came back and she's we just turned something on and that's where we're at. But they were getting probably 10 chats a day. Yeah. So the web guy, I have not been able to find a way to track. and the web guide said they haven't gotten a lot lately. do we have access to this chat? we don't, but I can try to get it. Let's get that first. so the outside of that metrics that we're going to track are things like. Or, we can identify that by looking at the amount of leads that they can see on their end, divided by spend. So what we're going to do is, unfortunately, we have to teach lead generation clients how to be good business people, which means if we see 10 chats coming in and 3 are ignored and 2 are late 2 are actually good and that kind of stuff. What we have to ask is, hey, you're spending 150 cost, maybe less, not about 100 cost per chat. And those are not going anywhere. I guarantee you if the tech person's ah, we're probably not getting a lot. Like they don't know that's not a viable answer. imagine them paying us and say, Hey, how's Google ads doing? And we're like, that's probably not, you're probably getting good. Like that's the same answer. We wouldn't be held accountable to it. We should not hold other people accountable to that. We have a higher standard. So let's work on getting access to the chats. That was also something that did really well for them. There was tons of it. Most of them were chats. now we haven't tracked it for probably a year, but the person that I was doing business with, Callie at the time, there are many variations of passages of lorem ipsum available. The majority of suffered by injected humor. we got to make sure that they can update their site to this lorem ipsum. default text, just as a side note, let's let him know about that. but the point in time that we have to measure is the leads that they see on their side. not what's in Google ads, because I think Google ads were close. if we tracked chats in the last 30 days. we're within goal at 162. And this is just a lead the calls on my call tracking and calls from ads. just so everyone's clear. What is the cost per lead goal? 100 to 150. Okay. they're wanting to see 100 to 150 inside the Google Ads dashboard or in total business metrics. What I've been trying to do is, since they have not been picking up the phone sometimes in call tracking metrics, I've been like using that hey, you're having these calls, you're not picking them up, they're not going to be transferred to Google Ads, therefore they won't show up here. So in the last call that I had with them, I like just grabbed all the data from both the forms, and the calls and just do like a blended CPA. so they're not necessarily looking at Google ads right now, but I'm just trying to anticipate to anything that they may come up with. we'd have to measure their back end. so what we want to do is we want to hop into their tool and say, here's my chats phone calls. Whether they answered it or not and leads, and then say, by the way, the difference between the cost per lead that we're generating and the cost per contacted lead is 50 percent off. You're not answering your calls. You're not answering your chats, because right now what they're doing is they're saying my business is failing, so let's cure it with more traffic and that's what they're trying to account for is they won't look at necessarily. Themselves. Cause like you said, they're not answering every phone call, but what they want us to do is deliver more phone calls that they won't answer, which is not going to affect the metric. They're trying to hold us accountable to, which is NF CPA. And that's why NF CPA doesn't work. That's why NF metrics fail every time. So what we have to do is gain access to more than they want to us to give access to. And our reasoning is I can't help you unless I know where the fail points are and the answer of. We're probably not getting enough or probably not getting any is an unacceptable answer that no one would ever hold anybody accountable to. the 1st thing is can never look at an app. An app does not mean anything. we have to look at what is actually landing because their sales team. If they're good, you win. If they're bad, you fail Dean. So you have to hold them accountable before they hold you accountable first. I think that's a really good idea to have those two data points, John. Like I've never thought to do that. You show them the cost per lead of answer calls and the cost per lead total and say look, like you're making your own cost per conversion go way up by not answering calls. Yeah. And if you add money to this, it just becomes more expensive as your team will not. Get better. They especially will not scale and efficiency with more dollars that I put into the way that I would say this too, is most of the time for me, I have a real harsh way that I deal with clients, I will say, Hey, I think we're not the right fit. You're going to fire me based on your team's Inability to contact the leads that I'm delivering and my reputation means more to me than what your business apparently means to you. So I usually have a real hard, fast line in the sand, but the way that I manage it is I hop into only the backend clients and I say, what happened with these leads? And when they go, now they're flipping everything around. They start to look at their internal teams. So what I would say, Dean is a good idea to say, I'd like actually like to decrease costs because I am outpacing your team. They're not contacting the calls. They're not contacting the chats. And if you're asking me to fix Google because your team isn't answering the calls, we're going to make this worse. This can be more expensive. We need to actually back down the spend to what your team can handle, because it seems that we may have a staffing or operations issue based on these facts, This is how many leads generated. There's something leads for contact. And some of my chats came in and some of my chats went unanswered. Took two to three minutes for people to answer the chat. You can see that they went dormant by there and weren't responding back. The people that are landing in the inbox. If the people that are landing in the CRM are not being contacted and they're one back button away from three of your competitors, all those things that are the reasons we will live and die by how proficient their sales team is. And we're outpacing their sales team. And you're asking us to outpace them further. I do not think that's a good business decision for you. This is client management gold, everybody. if anyone has any lead gen clients who are asking for more lead quality, like this is such a good strategy. Cool. So let's start there and let's bring it back. Thank you, John. I will do that. I think I flip it last time. So I don't think they're blaming us right now because I show her 50 percent of calls not being answered and in each call costing them 100. they said bad things, but not about us, just about their team. I will try to get access to the other, like the live chat and see what else we can do. Thank you. Sounds good. John, can I say the slightest caveat? Yeah, First of all, first time caller, long time listener and agree with everything you're saying. Thanks for being on the show. Colby. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Always looking at the end number what are we actually trying to don't live in an app But will you agree that? Once you're looking at things properly you can use an app just as your baseline like, you know These numbers aren't real But, if I'm moving something in this direction, say you have a CPQL or something, and it's you decreased it in app, and then you go and verify that you've decreased it somewhere else. Do you still use that indication or do you solely just look non in app? Do you know what I'm saying? What I'll do is I'll use the backend metrics and then draw a correlation between what the front end metrics look like and find the Delta of the attribution. There. So for my other little company travel, it's 50%. I tracked 50 percent of every e commerce sale in app. And I'm the only one running any sort of marketing for my own company. So I see 50 percent of the data this last week though, it was 40%. a 4, 000 in revenue. And I actually made like 10. So what I will do is draw a correlation of, okay, a 180 percent TROAS and 180 percent ROAS goal instead of Google ads will give me a four and I make sure that Delta is not increasing or decreasing. So I'll know how to maintain my attributed metrics in order to influence my backend metrics. Yeah, perfect. Okay. But every client will be different. It just depends on their sales cycle and how much their site is, their site speed actually affects more than anything else. Regina was talking about site speed the other day. you hit a thank you page, how fast do you usually leave that thank you page after you place an order? Zoom. Now, how many seconds does that page take to load? they say Dom ready? just know because I've had it's not firing quick enough. You're not going to even record that. And if it doesn't go through all of the tags and firing the conversion tag on that page, Google says nothing happened. So your site speed on the thank you page and how fast those people leave will depend on. If you're in a metrics or even trending in the right direction, or if some people start to leave faster or slower, your ROAS goes up and down. All right.