1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,510 Welcome to Base Camp, a podcast put out by All Things All People, which 2 00:00:04,510 --> 00:00:07,920 equips you to take the gospel to the darkest places and the least 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,510 reached people all around the world. 4 00:00:09,950 --> 00:00:11,240 My name is Mikel Collins. 5 00:00:11,510 --> 00:00:14,179 In this episode, I sit down with Jeremy Jenkins, the founder 6 00:00:14,179 --> 00:00:15,379 of All Things All People, 7 00:00:15,669 --> 00:00:18,679 and we discuss an evangelism method called Any Three. 8 00:00:19,149 --> 00:00:22,229 So by the end of this episode, you should have a great understanding of what the 9 00:00:22,229 --> 00:00:26,559 Any Three method is and how to apply it to your own gospel conversations. 10 00:00:27,004 --> 00:00:29,434 So thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoy the show. 11 00:00:31,074 --> 00:00:31,274 Jeremy: so 12 00:00:31,274 --> 00:00:37,604 The any three method or model for evangelism, formulated by Most mostly 13 00:00:37,604 --> 00:00:42,794 by a guy named mike shipman, who he let a team who was engaging muslims 14 00:00:42,824 --> 00:00:48,824 in a Overwhelmingly Muslim country, and also one that was fairly hostile, 15 00:00:49,214 --> 00:00:53,834 towards the gospel it's called any three, because at a certain point 16 00:00:54,704 --> 00:00:58,344 in the evangelism strategy, you are. 17 00:00:59,134 --> 00:01:03,521 Hoping to be poised with the opportunity to ask one of any three questions. 18 00:01:04,434 --> 00:01:09,274 Usually any three is used in engaging, Muslims. 19 00:01:09,324 --> 00:01:11,484 you know, as you and I'll talk about, I think it's actually, 20 00:01:11,484 --> 00:01:12,794 it's used can go far beyond that. 21 00:01:13,134 --> 00:01:15,994 but yeah, so, so it's called any three because you're given the choice of 22 00:01:15,994 --> 00:01:18,514 asking one of any three questions. 23 00:01:18,824 --> 00:01:20,484 Shipman and his team came up with. 24 00:01:20,739 --> 00:01:25,099 Mikel: And so you're working towards a chance to work in one 25 00:01:25,099 --> 00:01:28,879 of one of any of these three questions, and what are the three 26 00:01:29,494 --> 00:01:31,994 Jeremy: So I remember hearing about this model. 27 00:01:32,585 --> 00:01:36,955 When I first got out of undergraduate and started working in church ministry, 28 00:01:37,275 --> 00:01:40,635 and started hanging around with like a lot of missionaries, who are 29 00:01:40,665 --> 00:01:42,685 engaging Muslims with the gospel. 30 00:01:42,885 --> 00:01:45,465 I think this model has been around since the nineties, maybe the early two 31 00:01:45,465 --> 00:01:49,495 thousands, maybe before that I might be very wrong, Shipman and his team 32 00:01:50,653 --> 00:01:56,595 found that getting to a point where you could ask something along the lines of. 33 00:01:57,165 --> 00:01:58,815 Are your sins paid off yet? 34 00:01:59,885 --> 00:02:04,445 when do you think your sins will be paid off or like on judgment day? 35 00:02:04,665 --> 00:02:06,335 Cause Muslims do believe in a judgment day. 36 00:02:06,605 --> 00:02:10,175 Do you know that your sin debt will be paid? 37 00:02:10,535 --> 00:02:14,105 And so those are the three questions in all honesty, it doesn't have to 38 00:02:14,115 --> 00:02:17,425 be one of those three questions, but you kind of see really, it's a three 39 00:02:17,425 --> 00:02:19,285 iterations of the same question. 40 00:02:19,595 --> 00:02:19,800 way you 41 00:02:20,305 --> 00:02:24,265 Mikel: just trying to make, asking the question of what, what about your sin? 42 00:02:24,750 --> 00:02:24,900 Jeremy: Yeah, 43 00:02:24,915 --> 00:02:26,375 Mikel: what's going to happen with your sin? 44 00:02:26,385 --> 00:02:31,645 gotcha, and this is, you'd say it's been around since the 90s 45 00:02:31,685 --> 00:02:34,135 ish, and started by a guy named Michael 46 00:02:34,605 --> 00:02:35,475 Jeremy: Mike Shipman. 47 00:02:35,535 --> 00:02:35,895 Yeah. 48 00:02:36,195 --> 00:02:42,205 And so in the study of missions, one of the more interesting things that's 49 00:02:42,205 --> 00:02:45,765 happened in the last, 20, 30, 50 years. 50 00:02:46,104 --> 00:02:52,394 Is there's been a lot of missiological study on what is the best way to reach 51 00:02:52,424 --> 00:02:57,314 Muslims, Obviously there was a lot of evangelism towards Muslims before 9 11, 52 00:02:57,314 --> 00:03:03,234 but then post 9 11, the Western world really became more, aware of what was 53 00:03:03,234 --> 00:03:06,234 happening in Muslim majority countries. 54 00:03:06,324 --> 00:03:09,844 And then likewise, the church really became probably more. 55 00:03:10,149 --> 00:03:14,339 Inclined to send missionaries And so out of that though, there was a 56 00:03:14,359 --> 00:03:16,589 big question of like, well, what's the best way to reach muslims? 57 00:03:16,589 --> 00:03:20,039 and you know, we can talk some other time about that, but all the way from 58 00:03:20,039 --> 00:03:27,354 like, you know, Questions like, is it permissible or wise even for what 59 00:03:27,354 --> 00:03:29,114 we call a Muslim background believer? 60 00:03:29,114 --> 00:03:33,014 That's something that usually like in mission circles, a Muslim who's converted 61 00:03:33,014 --> 00:03:37,344 to Christianity oftentimes is designated as an MBB Muslim background believer. 62 00:03:37,824 --> 00:03:40,994 which even that term is somewhat controversial in the study missions, 63 00:03:40,994 --> 00:03:43,854 but like even questions like what we call insider movements. 64 00:03:43,884 --> 00:03:49,094 So in some Muslim countries, there are missionaries who, You know, we'll lead 65 00:03:49,094 --> 00:03:53,654 somebody to Christ or, you know, I mean, even a national movement where some 66 00:03:53,654 --> 00:03:58,284 believers will actually stay in the mosque and, live out their life, following Christ 67 00:03:58,334 --> 00:04:03,484 in the mosque, and inside the culture with the hope that from the inside, it'll 68 00:04:03,484 --> 00:04:08,384 grow all the way to, the planting of churches and prominently Muslim areas, 69 00:04:08,594 --> 00:04:15,414 all that to say in the midst of all of that, any three, became a really simple 70 00:04:16,074 --> 00:04:23,744 and preferred model that to overcome the very obvious obstacles that like people 71 00:04:23,744 --> 00:04:28,234 face in any evangelistic situation, but especially one tour, like when you're 72 00:04:28,384 --> 00:04:32,794 In a place, in a country, let's say that is predominantly not Christian. 73 00:04:33,084 --> 00:04:36,354 you have a unique set of obstacles that somebody's going to face. 74 00:04:36,644 --> 00:04:41,424 And so Shipman and his team developed any three to make it easier. 75 00:04:41,444 --> 00:04:44,314 what I love, and this can kind of get us into the explanation 76 00:04:44,314 --> 00:04:45,354 of exactly what it is. 77 00:04:45,364 --> 00:04:47,164 Like the frustration that. 78 00:04:47,464 --> 00:04:51,474 That they faced and, and, we'll make sure to link to some articles. 79 00:04:51,644 --> 00:04:55,784 I think there's a book that Shipman wrote that explains this, but the Genesis of 80 00:04:55,784 --> 00:05:02,754 it was that they felt like they were spending so much time trying to figure 81 00:05:02,754 --> 00:05:05,314 out who is ready to hear the gospel. 82 00:05:05,904 --> 00:05:09,044 one thing that's interesting, I think we've talked about this in a past episode, 83 00:05:09,044 --> 00:05:12,404 like on Jesus and Isa in other cultures 84 00:05:12,504 --> 00:05:16,284 And specifically in, Middle Eastern culture, is they're very, very friendly. 85 00:05:16,284 --> 00:05:17,454 And they're very, very hospitable. 86 00:05:17,784 --> 00:05:23,354 And so missionaries like Shipman's team, who, Are in these, environments, 87 00:05:23,354 --> 00:05:25,774 like sometimes they really struggle to figure out like, okay, are 88 00:05:25,774 --> 00:05:27,284 they ready to hear the gospel? 89 00:05:27,294 --> 00:05:29,494 Because like, do I know the culture well enough? 90 00:05:29,494 --> 00:05:30,784 Do I know the language well enough? 91 00:05:30,974 --> 00:05:32,444 Am I good enough friends with them? 92 00:05:32,454 --> 00:05:34,064 Like, have I met their needs? 93 00:05:34,064 --> 00:05:35,234 Like all these things. 94 00:05:35,274 --> 00:05:39,374 And they sort of became, exhausted by this process. 95 00:05:39,404 --> 00:05:44,124 And so they just decided, well, Hey, Let's just start assuming that the Holy 96 00:05:44,124 --> 00:05:49,824 Spirit is, is like by the grace of God, preparing people to hear the gospel. 97 00:05:50,014 --> 00:05:52,454 So let's start sharing the gospel with as many people as we 98 00:05:52,454 --> 00:05:52,904 possibly 99 00:05:52,904 --> 00:05:53,434 can. 100 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:54,944 Mikel: And 101 00:05:55,074 --> 00:05:55,494 Jeremy: Correct. 102 00:05:55,494 --> 00:05:55,774 Yeah. 103 00:05:55,774 --> 00:05:57,634 And it really, it's funny because like. 104 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,559 I think once people start thinking that way, it really frees us 105 00:06:03,559 --> 00:06:06,689 up to feel like, okay, we don't have to till the soil, right? 106 00:06:06,689 --> 00:06:08,369 Like it's on the parable of the sower. 107 00:06:08,369 --> 00:06:11,059 Christ tells us like, you know, there's good soil. 108 00:06:11,079 --> 00:06:12,429 Then there's the rocky soil. 109 00:06:12,429 --> 00:06:14,879 Then there's the soil where the birds snatch the seed away. 110 00:06:14,879 --> 00:06:17,339 Then there's the soil where the weeds grow up. 111 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:19,279 Really our job is just to sow the seed. 112 00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:24,119 they started just sharing the gospel as effectively and simply as they could. 113 00:06:24,729 --> 00:06:28,939 and when they would find someone who was receptive to it, that was who 114 00:06:28,939 --> 00:06:33,989 they then began to disciple, like further the conversation about Christ. 115 00:06:34,139 --> 00:06:36,619 If somebody was like hostile towards it or indifferent towards it, they were 116 00:06:36,619 --> 00:06:38,229 just like, okay, we'll move on, you know? 117 00:06:38,229 --> 00:06:41,259 And so out of that, the Any three model. 118 00:06:41,474 --> 00:06:46,564 Came about, which we'll talk somewhat, formulaically about it here. 119 00:06:46,564 --> 00:06:50,444 But the reason why I love it and I use it any chance I get, and then I've actually 120 00:06:50,674 --> 00:06:55,414 broadened my use of it outside of just Muslims, which I think Shipman, has said, 121 00:06:55,414 --> 00:06:59,644 like it can be effective for that is that the first time you hear it, it might 122 00:06:59,644 --> 00:07:04,174 seem somewhat like systematic formulaic, but it's actually a tool that's. 123 00:07:04,564 --> 00:07:08,854 really conversational and simple and comes down to just a few key 124 00:07:08,854 --> 00:07:12,264 questions that you're trying to lace into a conversation Naturally. 125 00:07:12,534 --> 00:07:15,254 Mikel: Yeah, that's what I noticed when I was reading the article that you sent 126 00:07:15,254 --> 00:07:19,894 me that kind of breaks it down is it's I was going through it and I do not 127 00:07:19,894 --> 00:07:24,914 have the experience that you do with evangelism and missions and things and 128 00:07:24,914 --> 00:07:30,924 I thought wow This feels like a just like a regular conversation that I would 129 00:07:30,924 --> 00:07:33,761 have thinking about walking through it 130 00:07:33,761 --> 00:07:36,981 Jeremy: I think what I tell people, cause I'm not, I say this a lot, like 131 00:07:36,981 --> 00:07:38,721 I'm not naturally a very good evangelist. 132 00:07:39,051 --> 00:07:42,701 I didn't grow up in an environment where evangelism was taught, really 133 00:07:42,701 --> 00:07:46,091 didn't start being taught and equipped on how to evangelize until 134 00:07:46,091 --> 00:07:47,561 I was already in church ministry. 135 00:07:47,981 --> 00:07:51,601 but what I've come to learn, and I try and tell people, it's like evangelism really 136 00:07:51,601 --> 00:07:55,636 is just like the ultimate Like learning the art of having conversation in a good, 137 00:07:55,706 --> 00:07:59,896 like having good conversation that goes beyond the surface, but then also learning 138 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:05,356 how to, like, if we say that our faith in Christ and, the beauty of the gospel 139 00:08:05,356 --> 00:08:10,192 is one of, if not the most important things about us, then we would desire 140 00:08:10,202 --> 00:08:11,892 for that to be part of our conversations. 141 00:08:11,892 --> 00:08:15,092 Just like, and I say this a lot, it's like, Whatever my favorite TV 142 00:08:15,092 --> 00:08:17,592 show or whatever my favorite movie or whatever my favorite, like, 143 00:08:17,782 --> 00:08:19,130 I recently finished reading Lord 144 00:08:20,102 --> 00:08:20,522 and, 145 00:08:21,182 --> 00:08:24,092 and now have gone really, really deep in reading all 146 00:08:24,092 --> 00:08:25,272 this Tolkien stuff and all that. 147 00:08:25,272 --> 00:08:27,912 And every time I see you, we talk about 148 00:08:27,912 --> 00:08:28,162 that. 149 00:08:28,572 --> 00:08:33,402 , and so I think for people listening to this, who desire to be whatever 150 00:08:33,402 --> 00:08:37,412 become better evangelists, like it's really just learning how to have. 151 00:08:37,697 --> 00:08:41,947 Conversation that goes beyond the surface and learning how to listen well, but 152 00:08:41,947 --> 00:08:46,637 then learning that it's okay for this. 153 00:08:47,302 --> 00:08:52,472 Thing about you that you, you rightly proclaim is the most important thing 154 00:08:52,472 --> 00:08:58,332 about you to come to the surface and to not hide it and to allow it to 155 00:08:58,332 --> 00:09:01,882 become part of your conversation and the conviction that shipment and so 156 00:09:01,882 --> 00:09:06,212 many other missionaries that, you know, that I, I love and respect, throughout 157 00:09:06,212 --> 00:09:12,216 time, what they realized was like, People do want to hear the gospel. 158 00:09:12,892 --> 00:09:17,992 We have this picture of kind of like the God's not dead type evangelism where we 159 00:09:17,992 --> 00:09:20,102 think everybody is going to shout us down. 160 00:09:20,612 --> 00:09:21,842 Everybody's going to be angry. 161 00:09:21,952 --> 00:09:23,302 Very rarely does that happen. 162 00:09:23,302 --> 00:09:27,092 In fact, the most common reaction you're going to get is indifference, 163 00:09:27,232 --> 00:09:31,852 but more often than not, I think whether it's out of respect, kindness, or a 164 00:09:31,852 --> 00:09:34,792 genuine interest, people will want to know more because you're likely. 165 00:09:35,952 --> 00:09:39,202 Even here in the States where, Christianity is somewhat well known, 166 00:09:39,502 --> 00:09:43,582 you still are statistically most likely to be the only person who's 167 00:09:43,582 --> 00:09:47,462 ever presented the gospel to the person in a complete fashion, even 168 00:09:47,462 --> 00:09:48,772 if that person grew up in church, 169 00:09:50,035 --> 00:09:55,265 So yeah, so Shipman, they came up with this sort of model and method and 170 00:09:55,525 --> 00:09:57,575 they, they lay it out in five steps. 171 00:09:57,785 --> 00:09:59,635 The first step is get connected. 172 00:10:00,110 --> 00:10:01,100 and we'll break each of these down. 173 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:02,720 The second step is get to God. 174 00:10:03,170 --> 00:10:05,140 The third step is get to lostness. 175 00:10:05,170 --> 00:10:07,210 The fourth step is get to the gospel. 176 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,620 And then the fifth step is get to a decision. 177 00:10:09,940 --> 00:10:15,390 the first step is get connected in every story that Shipman tells, 178 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:19,220 and you can, you can go and Google any three, and there's a number of 179 00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:21,000 websites that talk about this model. 180 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:25,240 Is really what they're saying is like just have a conversation Like if this 181 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,800 is the first time you've met this person don't be the street preacher 182 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,565 who just starts with the gospel. 183 00:10:29,825 --> 00:10:34,415 but then also too, there's this sort of conviction that sometimes people 184 00:10:34,415 --> 00:10:38,605 will say, well, you really need to be good friends with a person before 185 00:10:38,605 --> 00:10:39,705 you share the gospel with them. 186 00:10:39,705 --> 00:10:41,045 Or you need to know them for a really long time. 187 00:10:41,045 --> 00:10:41,945 They need to trust you. 188 00:10:42,425 --> 00:10:46,205 And in the same sense, Shipman talks about well, how good a friend, how 189 00:10:46,235 --> 00:10:49,675 good a friend do I need to be a person before I can share the gospel with them? 190 00:10:50,095 --> 00:10:52,575 And so this step get connected is just like, 191 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:56,870 Just have a normal conversation with the person like anybody else. 192 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:57,740 Hey, how are you? 193 00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:58,480 How are you doing? 194 00:10:58,490 --> 00:10:59,340 where are you from? 195 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,830 you know, I've said before, and it's not my quote. 196 00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:07,940 I've heard it numerous times, but you're only as interesting as you are interested. 197 00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:08,930 And so like. 198 00:11:09,260 --> 00:11:14,200 if you're like, let's say you live in, you know, I grew up outside Chicago, let's say 199 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,390 I'm spending time in Chicago or something like that, and I'm waking up with the 200 00:11:17,390 --> 00:11:21,160 intention, like today, I want to find some people to just pray with and look to 201 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,760 share the gospel, or maybe I'm at work. 202 00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:25,560 Maybe, you know, you and I work at a church, so presumably we 203 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:26,796 don't have as many opportunities 204 00:11:27,610 --> 00:11:27,770 in 205 00:11:27,770 --> 00:11:29,350 our office to share the gospel. 206 00:11:29,610 --> 00:11:32,530 Well, the first step is just like be somebody that people like to talk to. 207 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:34,340 So it's okay to talk about sports. 208 00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:37,310 In fact, it's actually preferred to talk about sports and music 209 00:11:37,310 --> 00:11:40,330 and food and culture, because that's where people relate. 210 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:44,150 And so get connected, be friendly, be interested in them. 211 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,050 Like everybody's favorite topic, whether they realize it is 212 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:49,300 themselves, and, use people's name. 213 00:11:49,370 --> 00:11:52,090 You know, if I'm trying to talk to somebody that I've just met, 214 00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:53,660 And they say, Hey, my name's Mike. 215 00:11:53,660 --> 00:11:55,840 And it's like, well, Hey Mike, I'm really Glad to meet you. 216 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:56,570 My name's Jeremy. 217 00:11:56,910 --> 00:11:57,790 just stuff like that. 218 00:11:57,890 --> 00:11:59,060 and so get connected. 219 00:11:59,370 --> 00:12:01,390 and like I said, that's a pretty simple step. 220 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,080 I think most of us are actually probably fairly good at 221 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:11,006 Mikel: are thing about American selves is that we're actually 222 00:12:11,022 --> 00:12:14,259 Jeremy: it's actually one thing that, I was just, kind of 223 00:12:14,259 --> 00:12:15,719 briefing one of our mission teams. 224 00:12:15,719 --> 00:12:17,689 That's going to be traveling internationally this summer. 225 00:12:18,299 --> 00:12:22,699 And one thing I tell every missions team that goes on a short term trip 226 00:12:22,699 --> 00:12:25,419 or really anybody who's traveling is that one thing that Americans 227 00:12:25,419 --> 00:12:27,869 don't realize about themselves is that we're actually quite friendly. 228 00:12:28,099 --> 00:12:31,159 Like we sort of have this negative image of ourselves because 229 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:32,449 of like, there's obviously. 230 00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:36,049 Things that Americans aren't necessarily the best at, but we're really friendly. 231 00:12:36,199 --> 00:12:39,329 most people, when they walk down the street, don't smile and nod 232 00:12:39,379 --> 00:12:40,759 every single person they pass. 233 00:12:41,049 --> 00:12:44,079 And so in that sense, Americans are actually very good at small talk. 234 00:12:44,109 --> 00:12:45,839 We're very good at Hey, how are you? 235 00:12:45,849 --> 00:12:46,539 How's your day going? 236 00:12:46,539 --> 00:12:50,669 Like Think about the last time you talked to a waitress or a barista or a cashier. 237 00:12:50,669 --> 00:12:53,119 You usually don't just sit there in silence. 238 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,289 Yeah, leverage that, you know, get connected. 239 00:12:55,299 --> 00:13:00,049 And then the more instrumental step, the second one, which is get to God. 240 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:03,969 And this is where I think most people are going to struggle to 241 00:13:03,979 --> 00:13:06,609 begin to feel the nerve to do this. 242 00:13:06,899 --> 00:13:11,459 this is the idea of bringing up religion, bringing up beliefs and things like that. 243 00:13:11,819 --> 00:13:16,594 and it really is based around questions like, Hey, what do you believe? 244 00:13:16,614 --> 00:13:17,584 where do you go to church? 245 00:13:18,719 --> 00:13:22,469 Mikel: And you pointed out In the Jesus and Isa episode that that's something 246 00:13:22,469 --> 00:13:27,639 that is not common in america But is pretty normal in most other countries 247 00:13:27,649 --> 00:13:31,339 to just ask there's no taboo around talking about religion like there is 248 00:13:31,422 --> 00:13:31,579 Jeremy: here 249 00:13:31,609 --> 00:13:31,909 Yeah. 250 00:13:32,074 --> 00:13:36,374 if there is a taboo, it's not necessarily that you can't 251 00:13:36,374 --> 00:13:37,754 talk about it like it is here. 252 00:13:37,904 --> 00:13:41,234 It's more so like, you certainly need to be respectful and things like that. 253 00:13:41,234 --> 00:13:45,204 But what Americans, sometimes don't realize is that in our culture, 254 00:13:45,704 --> 00:13:47,744 religion is mostly a private choice. 255 00:13:48,064 --> 00:13:51,774 a lot of Christians, or Westerners in general, intentionally raise their 256 00:13:51,784 --> 00:13:55,652 children in hopes that they will pick whichever religion they like. 257 00:13:56,477 --> 00:14:00,137 so what comes of that is we live in a culture where I don't know 258 00:14:00,137 --> 00:14:03,877 what religion the person next to me follows if they do follow one. 259 00:14:04,217 --> 00:14:08,037 And even more so it can seem sometimes offensive to ask them, but in other 260 00:14:08,037 --> 00:14:12,319 cultures, Whether those cultures are overseas or like what we call a diaspora. 261 00:14:12,359 --> 00:14:13,949 Diaspora means dispersion. 262 00:14:14,409 --> 00:14:20,229 so like the United States is full of communities of people who is either first, 263 00:14:20,239 --> 00:14:24,329 second, third generation immigrants, or first, second, third generation Americans. 264 00:14:24,339 --> 00:14:27,569 So you know, presumably either they or their parents or their grandparents 265 00:14:27,569 --> 00:14:31,619 would have immigrated And in those cultures more often than not. 266 00:14:32,714 --> 00:14:37,064 Everybody's the same religion, or at least, one of a few, and in a 267 00:14:37,064 --> 00:14:41,694 lot of their cultural identity is really closely tied to what they 268 00:14:41,694 --> 00:14:43,104 believe to be true religiously. 269 00:14:43,104 --> 00:14:49,904 And so we can kind of feel a little bit free asking about somebody's beliefs, 270 00:14:49,934 --> 00:14:53,524 or even if somebody's uncomfortable with that, like even asking, like, 271 00:14:53,884 --> 00:14:55,544 do you go to a mosque around here? 272 00:14:55,544 --> 00:15:00,044 So you and I live near Charlotte, North Carolina, there's a predominantly. 273 00:15:00,674 --> 00:15:04,274 Arab part of Charlotte, so it's not a predominantly Muslim 274 00:15:04,274 --> 00:15:05,224 part of Charlotte, right? 275 00:15:05,384 --> 00:15:09,134 Not all Arabs are Muslims and Not all Muslims are Arabs. 276 00:15:09,144 --> 00:15:11,854 So there's a predominantly Arab part of Charlotte. 277 00:15:12,374 --> 00:15:14,634 Well, I've gone there, you know intentionally just to sort of 278 00:15:15,454 --> 00:15:19,084 pray through that neighborhood and look for opportunities and so 279 00:15:20,784 --> 00:15:20,984 In 280 00:15:20,984 --> 00:15:25,634 regards to like this step to talking to a guy who owns like a 281 00:15:25,644 --> 00:15:29,974 Lebanese grocery store Just asking like, Hey, is there a mosque near 282 00:15:31,454 --> 00:15:31,624 And 283 00:15:31,624 --> 00:15:35,054 he goes, Oh yeah, it's right down here on the corner, you know? 284 00:15:35,454 --> 00:15:36,804 And then I said, do you go there? 285 00:15:38,154 --> 00:15:39,404 And he goes, Oh yeah, actually I do. 286 00:15:39,404 --> 00:15:43,584 Or if he says no, you know, if somebody is sort of demonstrating to you through 287 00:15:43,584 --> 00:15:45,544 their body language or their tone, like, I don't want to talk about this. 288 00:15:45,574 --> 00:15:45,814 Okay. 289 00:15:45,814 --> 00:15:46,564 Then don't talk about it. 290 00:15:46,784 --> 00:15:49,874 But more often than not, they're going to go, Oh no, I go to the mosque over here. 291 00:15:50,174 --> 00:15:50,354 Right. 292 00:15:50,354 --> 00:15:52,634 So right away, like, okay, I know this person's a Muslim. 293 00:15:52,684 --> 00:15:54,394 presumably if you did step one. 294 00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:56,869 This isn't the first question you're asking them, right? 295 00:15:56,879 --> 00:15:58,869 Like, Oh, Hey, I really love this store. 296 00:15:58,869 --> 00:16:01,629 Like, maybe in this particular instance, there's a restaurant 297 00:16:01,629 --> 00:16:02,399 connected to the store. 298 00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:03,219 So I'm talking about the food. 299 00:16:03,219 --> 00:16:07,029 I'm talking about how much I love the food and Hey, how long has this store 300 00:16:07,029 --> 00:16:10,139 been here and man, I wish there was a place like this close to my house. 301 00:16:10,139 --> 00:16:12,189 Cause I have to drive an hour to get here. 302 00:16:12,499 --> 00:16:15,709 so it's quite natural then to say, well, Hey, tell me the most 303 00:16:15,709 --> 00:16:18,999 important thing about you, And so, yeah, the idea of getting to God. 304 00:16:19,649 --> 00:16:20,819 Is this second step. 305 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:24,239 So in, once again, to broaden this outside of just Muslims, it 306 00:16:24,239 --> 00:16:26,159 can be used in any circumstances. 307 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:30,819 I spent a lot of time talking to, South Asian, people and 308 00:16:31,079 --> 00:16:32,579 in the same notion is true. 309 00:16:32,589 --> 00:16:36,259 Like I can say, well, Hey, I've traveled to India or I've traveled to Nepal or 310 00:16:36,259 --> 00:16:39,119 something like that, you know, Like religion is really important there. 311 00:16:39,139 --> 00:16:44,109 like, how do you practice that being in a small town like you and I live 312 00:16:45,142 --> 00:16:46,619 Hindu temple and things like that? 313 00:16:46,619 --> 00:16:49,899 and, you know, it's people listening, , I know this might seem like gymnastics, 314 00:16:49,899 --> 00:16:54,679 but it's just like, look for a way to broach the subject, even if you do it. 315 00:16:55,564 --> 00:17:00,264 Inversely, which is you bring up your faith It's a great way for someone to 316 00:17:00,264 --> 00:17:04,084 bring up theirs if you bring up yours and so just approaching that subject and one 317 00:17:04,084 --> 00:17:09,114 thing that shipman recommends is even just being as bold to say like are you hindu? 318 00:17:09,134 --> 00:17:09,864 Are you muslim? 319 00:17:09,864 --> 00:17:10,474 Are you buddhist? 320 00:17:10,474 --> 00:17:11,084 Are you christian? 321 00:17:11,084 --> 00:17:15,944 You know, uh, especially if that person's given um sort of leeway in that 322 00:17:16,048 --> 00:17:16,694 Mikel: conversation 323 00:17:16,784 --> 00:17:16,844 Yeah. 324 00:17:16,844 --> 00:17:19,244 They just haven't started Clamming up and shutting down as soon as 325 00:17:19,339 --> 00:17:19,939 Jeremy: Exactly. 326 00:17:19,939 --> 00:17:20,119 Yeah. 327 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:25,409 And then once again, going back to, that conviction that it's like, I am not 328 00:17:25,419 --> 00:17:31,209 going to qualify or disqualify my hearer 329 00:17:32,449 --> 00:17:37,619 on whether or not they're prepared to hear the gospel by how they have 330 00:17:37,629 --> 00:17:43,169 been in conversation about things that aren't the gospel, you know? 331 00:17:43,199 --> 00:17:48,259 So, ask yourself, what's the worst thing That will happen if I politely 332 00:17:48,259 --> 00:17:52,049 and gently bring up spiritual matters in a conversation with somebody that 333 00:17:52,049 --> 00:17:54,809 I've already connected with The worst thing that's going to happen is that 334 00:17:54,809 --> 00:18:00,149 they express a disinterest maybe Very rarely they get upset about it, but 335 00:18:00,349 --> 00:18:01,809 more often than not they're not going 336 00:18:01,882 --> 00:18:02,029 Mikel: to 337 00:18:02,029 --> 00:18:02,449 Yeah. 338 00:18:02,569 --> 00:18:03,289 Not if you do it 339 00:18:03,778 --> 00:18:06,969 Jeremy: Exactly right and also too once again, you're interested and this is 340 00:18:06,969 --> 00:18:11,309 where like, You know, and for somebody who's listening to an ATAP podcast, I 341 00:18:11,309 --> 00:18:15,469 mean, you can say I'm really interested in religions Like I've used that 342 00:18:16,349 --> 00:18:17,869 Thousands of times, you know what I mean? 343 00:18:17,869 --> 00:18:21,369 Because I genuinely am like, hey, I'm a christian But i'm really 344 00:18:21,369 --> 00:18:24,769 interested in learning about religions and I really prefer to learn about 345 00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:26,499 religions from people who follow 346 00:18:26,499 --> 00:18:26,909 them 347 00:18:27,379 --> 00:18:31,149 And man, like people light up when I say that i'm not respecting that religion. 348 00:18:31,149 --> 00:18:33,679 I'm not giving credence to it I'm just saying hey, I I 349 00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:34,939 like to learn about religions. 350 00:18:34,939 --> 00:18:35,499 And so 351 00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:38,069 Mikel: then you're not, you're not disrespecting Correct. 352 00:18:38,069 --> 00:18:38,999 The religion either. 353 00:18:38,999 --> 00:18:39,989 You're just Exactly. 354 00:18:40,409 --> 00:18:42,509 Honestly saying, I wanna learn more about 355 00:18:42,598 --> 00:18:52,410 Jeremy: Honestly saying, I want to learn about what you some form of fashion, 356 00:18:52,410 --> 00:18:57,530 like, Hey, in your religion, what are you doing to get your sins forgiven? 357 00:18:57,830 --> 00:19:01,310 And in my experience with Muslims, which I'm, I'm no expert in 358 00:19:01,310 --> 00:19:02,460 sharing the gospel with Muslims. 359 00:19:02,460 --> 00:19:08,720 I'm, much more experienced with South Asians, but in the past year, like 360 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,600 I've been doing it more intentionally. 361 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:14,970 I find that the reason why this method is very effective with Muslims 362 00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:19,870 is because there is so much overlap between Islam and Christianity. 363 00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:24,443 When Muhammad, began to claim that he was receiving this revelation 364 00:19:24,443 --> 00:19:30,323 from a law, so much of it was based on the old and new Testament. 365 00:19:30,353 --> 00:19:34,973 I've been in experiences both internationally and stateside, where this 366 00:19:35,013 --> 00:19:42,113 step of getting to God and getting to these questions about sin is preceded by 367 00:19:42,793 --> 00:19:46,893 usually them when they say that they're Muslim and I say, I'm a Christian. 368 00:19:47,253 --> 00:19:51,043 Usually it goes something like, well, you know, it's basically the same thing. 369 00:19:51,253 --> 00:19:51,543 Yeah. 370 00:19:51,593 --> 00:19:55,343 we're very much alike, and I have no problem kind of saying, yeah, 371 00:19:55,343 --> 00:19:57,893 there is a lot of similarities, we both believe in sin. 372 00:19:58,233 --> 00:20:01,773 We both believe that inherently there's a problem with humanity. 373 00:20:02,383 --> 00:20:05,163 And then the question of like, well, so what are you doing 374 00:20:05,683 --> 00:20:07,283 to get your sins forgiven? 375 00:20:08,513 --> 00:20:13,583 Digs that well, even deeper to get to the heart of really what 376 00:20:13,583 --> 00:20:14,383 we're trying to get to with the 377 00:20:14,969 --> 00:20:15,628 Mikel: the gospel. 378 00:20:15,628 --> 00:20:19,618 Yeah, and so that those are the three First three steps right is 379 00:20:19,858 --> 00:20:24,508 make connection get to God and then What what about your sin? 380 00:20:24,588 --> 00:20:25,378 Is that what is it? 381 00:20:25,418 --> 00:20:26,338 Is that a third step 382 00:20:26,842 --> 00:20:29,902 Jeremy: So yeah, so get to God is step two. 383 00:20:29,962 --> 00:20:30,992 And get to lostness. 384 00:20:30,992 --> 00:20:31,572 Is step three, 385 00:20:31,622 --> 00:20:35,231 and if you're thinking about it as far as like these step one, step two, step 386 00:20:35,231 --> 00:20:41,491 three, in getting to lostness, we want to address the question of sin because 387 00:20:41,731 --> 00:20:44,231 if you ask somebody, well, what are you doing to get your sins forgiven? 388 00:20:44,391 --> 00:20:45,901 They're going to tell you, right? 389 00:20:46,011 --> 00:20:47,181 If they don't tell you then, 390 00:20:48,564 --> 00:20:52,994 hypothesis here that we want to find the people that the Holy Spirit's preparing. 391 00:20:53,704 --> 00:20:56,224 Scripture tells us like, Hey, if somebody doesn't receive the gospel, then just 392 00:20:56,224 --> 00:20:58,404 kind of shake the dust off your move on. 393 00:20:58,834 --> 00:21:01,804 in my experience, especially in the Islamic world, they're going 394 00:21:01,804 --> 00:21:03,654 to tell you about the five pillars. 395 00:21:03,654 --> 00:21:05,944 They're going to tell you about, giving to charity. 396 00:21:05,944 --> 00:21:08,324 They're going to tell you about, Praying five times a day. 397 00:21:08,334 --> 00:21:08,874 It's a lot. 398 00:21:08,894 --> 00:21:12,204 And, the confession of faith and all of these things, being a good 399 00:21:12,204 --> 00:21:14,204 father, being a good mother, so on. 400 00:21:15,264 --> 00:21:16,234 And then. 401 00:21:17,074 --> 00:21:20,234 We get to the any three, this is where the name comes from. 402 00:21:20,294 --> 00:21:22,274 And this is step three, which is get to lostness. 403 00:21:23,334 --> 00:21:25,334 Listen intently, listen, 404 00:21:26,354 --> 00:21:27,204 , Charitably. 405 00:21:27,264 --> 00:21:30,784 I guess you'd say, listen, not just to respond. 406 00:21:30,994 --> 00:21:33,444 if they say something that doesn't make sense to you or say something 407 00:21:33,444 --> 00:21:35,954 that I have never heard that before, like ask them a question. 408 00:21:36,534 --> 00:21:42,424 But then at a certain point, the crux of the any three method is that. 409 00:21:42,904 --> 00:21:46,944 After they have told you how they believe their sins are being forgiven. 410 00:21:47,194 --> 00:21:49,744 You ask one of those three questions, whichever one's most appropriate 411 00:21:49,744 --> 00:21:53,314 or your own iteration of it, which is so are your sins paid off yet? 412 00:21:53,474 --> 00:21:55,744 Or when do you think your sins will be paid off? 413 00:21:55,754 --> 00:22:00,104 Or especially if it is a Muslim, Hey, on judgment day, when you're 414 00:22:00,104 --> 00:22:03,754 standing before a law, like, do you know that your debt is paid? 415 00:22:04,314 --> 00:22:10,284 And in most cases, whether we're dealing with a Muslim or a Hindu or whatever, 416 00:22:11,384 --> 00:22:14,194 if they have the agreement that. 417 00:22:15,609 --> 00:22:19,839 There is sin and humanity is contending against sin, whatever that might 418 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:24,289 look like the Hindu concept of sin is completely and utterly different than 419 00:22:24,289 --> 00:22:26,069 the Judeo Christian concept of sin. 420 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:32,659 But if it's there, then this question is most likely going 421 00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:34,849 to be answered in the negative. 422 00:22:35,269 --> 00:22:36,329 No, I don't know. 423 00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:42,275 And in the Muslim, If they understand what the Quran teaches to be true about 424 00:22:42,275 --> 00:22:48,765 sin and salvation and Allah and paradise, then they will say, no, I don't know. 425 00:22:48,765 --> 00:22:51,549 I can't know because even Mohammed said he didn't. 426 00:22:52,405 --> 00:22:53,935 so that's. 427 00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:59,250 Where you get to the gospel step four, because then the beautiful 428 00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:02,560 thing about like learning how to have this conversation around any 429 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,780 three is then you say, now here's the difference between our faiths. 430 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:07,820 very. 431 00:23:08,390 --> 00:23:12,230 Helpful with a Muslim because you do without being 432 00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:14,230 disrespectful and inflammatory. 433 00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:17,730 You do want to say, no, we do not believe the same thing. 434 00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:19,380 Like we don't believe the same thing about Jesus. 435 00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:20,840 We don't believe the same thing about God. 436 00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:24,930 So the way we live out our faith might sometimes look similar and we might 437 00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:26,809 use the same names for the prophets. 438 00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:30,760 The most operative things about our faith are quite different. 439 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:31,510 And so, so. 440 00:23:31,845 --> 00:23:35,355 Like the way that Shipman puts it is, well, what I believe is different. 441 00:23:35,395 --> 00:23:37,125 I know that my sins are forgiven. 442 00:23:37,525 --> 00:23:39,115 It's not because I'm a good person. 443 00:23:39,125 --> 00:23:42,605 Although I do try, I know my sins are forgiven because God himself has made 444 00:23:42,605 --> 00:23:45,225 a way for our sins to be forgiven. 445 00:23:45,575 --> 00:23:48,895 And this brings us into the, get to the gospel step. 446 00:23:48,895 --> 00:23:52,455 So before we kind of talk about how to present the gospel in the any three model, 447 00:23:53,125 --> 00:23:56,005 which there isn't just one universal way, but there's one way that I've found 448 00:23:56,005 --> 00:24:01,005 helpful based off of what Shipman has found helpful, but to this point, right. 449 00:24:01,455 --> 00:24:03,265 All this is, is just a conversation about 450 00:24:05,365 --> 00:24:10,785 this person who's sitting with you and sin and what they believe about sin. 451 00:24:10,815 --> 00:24:15,045 And if they do believe in sin, how are you going about seeing that problem 452 00:24:15,075 --> 00:24:15,785 resolved? 453 00:24:16,305 --> 00:24:21,145 And to this point, like my advice to anybody listening, who feels compelled 454 00:24:21,145 --> 00:24:24,695 to try and have these conversations, it's like your job is to just listen. 455 00:24:24,715 --> 00:24:25,715 It's not to argue. 456 00:24:25,795 --> 00:24:30,505 Mikel: I think especially with early on, if you have not used to these kinds of 457 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:35,995 conversations, and maybe it's an American culture thing as well, I don't know. 458 00:24:36,045 --> 00:24:37,460 when you are talking about. 459 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:42,580 The thing that's most important to you in the world, and you know 460 00:24:42,580 --> 00:24:47,000 that the person you're talking to disagrees with you fundamentally, we 461 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,720 can kind of put up some defenses and can cause us to stop listening to 462 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,120 what the person is saying and start Thinking about what we are going to say 463 00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:03,439 next to try and prove that we're right and make it into more of an argument instead 464 00:25:03,439 --> 00:25:08,709 of a, this is just a person that I'm trying to connect with at this, moment. 465 00:25:08,779 --> 00:25:13,789 Jeremy: A lot of evangelism too, and just mission work in general, also comes down 466 00:25:13,789 --> 00:25:19,339 to what we might call like theological triage, which is like understanding. 467 00:25:19,389 --> 00:25:23,939 Which things are worth disagreeing about like openly, you know, and 468 00:25:23,939 --> 00:25:27,999 if this conversation is happening, at a bar or in an elevator, right? 469 00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:32,179 Like it's very rare that it's worth arguing about, right? 470 00:25:32,179 --> 00:25:37,119 If you're going into this saying, okay, let's assume that Shipman and 471 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,709 these other missionaries are right. 472 00:25:38,709 --> 00:25:42,789 I mean, they've led hundreds of thousands Muslims to the gospel. 473 00:25:43,874 --> 00:25:47,804 Assuming that they're right, that it's most effective to just look 474 00:25:47,814 --> 00:25:50,384 for people who it seemed like, what we would say is a green light. 475 00:25:51,004 --> 00:25:55,074 then if somebody starts throwing up these defensive arguments, well, you're 476 00:25:55,074 --> 00:25:57,434 a Christian, so you don't understand this and this and this like, Hey, if you 477 00:25:57,434 --> 00:26:01,894 want to continue the conversation, go for But that's not what we're looking for. 478 00:26:01,974 --> 00:26:05,654 Like we're not looking to win debates in, in, in even more so here in the 479 00:26:05,654 --> 00:26:10,594 United States, where honestly, by some segments of the population, evangelism 480 00:26:10,604 --> 00:26:11,869 is seen as somewhat offensive. 481 00:26:12,734 --> 00:26:15,474 If somebody, when you start asking questions about, Hey, 482 00:26:15,474 --> 00:26:16,444 what do you believe in sin? 483 00:26:16,444 --> 00:26:19,294 If they start throwing up these defensive things, like it's okay. 484 00:26:19,294 --> 00:26:22,934 Like this probably isn't the person today that you can continue that 485 00:26:22,984 --> 00:26:27,294 lovingly and gently giving an answer for the hope that is within you. 486 00:26:28,404 --> 00:26:33,224 But understand, okay, I'm probably not going to lead this person to Christ 487 00:26:33,224 --> 00:26:34,534 today and 488 00:26:34,534 --> 00:26:35,254 that's okay. 489 00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:38,844 So now it becomes more about, Hey, I just want to show this person that 490 00:26:38,844 --> 00:26:44,564 like Christians lovingly, but be looking for the person who maybe is 491 00:26:44,564 --> 00:26:48,314 interested in having this conversation wants to have this conversation. 492 00:26:48,704 --> 00:26:52,494 so everything to this point, is getting to. 493 00:26:52,994 --> 00:26:55,044 Getting to lostness, getting to Jesus. 494 00:26:55,414 --> 00:27:00,044 and the way that Shipman, and his team kind of formulated this is what 495 00:27:00,044 --> 00:27:04,014 they call the, how they presented the gospel in this step, right? 496 00:27:04,014 --> 00:27:08,774 So this get to the gospel step is what they call the first and last sacrifice. 497 00:27:09,094 --> 00:27:11,724 And, I'm only going to go over it just like briefly. 498 00:27:12,004 --> 00:27:14,714 If somebody is really interested in this week, like I said, Mike and I 499 00:27:14,714 --> 00:27:18,934 will link to some resources that would go more in depth, but basically what 500 00:27:18,934 --> 00:27:22,184 they do is they tell the story of what the first and last sacrifice. 501 00:27:22,184 --> 00:27:23,574 And so, once again. 502 00:27:24,834 --> 00:27:28,864 especially in regards to Muslims, it's effective because it starts 503 00:27:28,884 --> 00:27:32,724 with Adam and so like I was recently, and this is, we told this story 504 00:27:32,734 --> 00:27:34,014 in the Jesus and Isa episode. 505 00:27:34,014 --> 00:27:37,924 I was recently in a Muslim country having a conversation like this with a 506 00:27:38,004 --> 00:27:40,254 Muslim, who I had become friends with. 507 00:27:40,544 --> 00:27:43,944 And I was able to start the conversation with like, well, Hey, for instance, like 508 00:27:43,944 --> 00:27:45,614 you guys believe in Adam and Eve too. 509 00:27:45,614 --> 00:27:46,634 And he's like, yes, of course. 510 00:27:47,114 --> 00:27:49,864 And so the story of first and last sacrifice goes essentially 511 00:27:49,864 --> 00:27:51,574 like, well, then you remember. 512 00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:56,819 that when Adam and Eve sinned and sin entered into humanity, 513 00:27:57,209 --> 00:28:00,979 the first act of charity that God did for them was he sacrificed, 514 00:28:01,379 --> 00:28:03,369 a lamb to make clothes for them. 515 00:28:03,964 --> 00:28:07,204 In that in clothing them, he covered their sin quite literally. 516 00:28:07,654 --> 00:28:12,094 And then you kind of talk through the old Testament narrative of 517 00:28:12,094 --> 00:28:16,754 showing that like over and over and over again, sin required some sort 518 00:28:16,754 --> 00:28:19,254 of sacrifice on behalf of humanity. 519 00:28:19,614 --> 00:28:22,414 in regards to non Muslims, this is actually still true. 520 00:28:23,089 --> 00:28:26,909 Even though there's not that biblical overlap with a Hindu or maybe with 521 00:28:26,909 --> 00:28:30,299 a Buddhist, but usually, especially within Hinduism, like there still 522 00:28:30,299 --> 00:28:33,729 is the idea that they might call them Pooja's there's an offering. 523 00:28:33,769 --> 00:28:35,219 Like when I go to the temple. 524 00:28:35,939 --> 00:28:39,189 to give offering to the gods, like I'm bringing something with me. 525 00:28:39,399 --> 00:28:43,029 And so even if you're telling this story to somebody who's not Muslim, 526 00:28:43,069 --> 00:28:46,099 while they might not believe in Adam and Eve, you can tell the same 527 00:28:46,099 --> 00:28:48,229 story and say, Hey, we see that. 528 00:28:48,929 --> 00:28:52,459 In God's laying out, history with humanity is that, there always had to 529 00:28:52,459 --> 00:28:54,529 be an offering for sin in my faith. 530 00:28:54,899 --> 00:29:00,519 And can tell the story about, you know, Abraham and his son. 531 00:29:00,789 --> 00:29:03,659 when we're talking to Muslims, it's usually not helpful to say, 532 00:29:03,939 --> 00:29:06,859 Abraham and Isaac because they believe that it was Ishmael. 533 00:29:07,099 --> 00:29:09,069 So we usually just say Abraham and his son. 534 00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:11,749 So that we, once again, we kind of do theological triage. 535 00:29:12,199 --> 00:29:13,309 We're sitting out here having this. 536 00:29:13,574 --> 00:29:14,184 Conversation. 537 00:29:14,184 --> 00:29:16,984 Like we don't want the conversation to become a debate about 538 00:29:16,984 --> 00:29:18,264 whether it was Ishmael or Isaac, 539 00:29:19,064 --> 00:29:19,654 they agree. 540 00:29:19,654 --> 00:29:23,834 And we agree that Abraham was called to sacrifice his son at the last minute. 541 00:29:23,834 --> 00:29:29,794 God saw his obedience, gave him this Ram to provide this covering again and 542 00:29:29,814 --> 00:29:35,644 culminating in Jesus is that Jesus comes and I believe, right, I'm not looking 543 00:29:35,644 --> 00:29:38,584 for this person's agreement at this point yet, but I'm just saying, Hey, 544 00:29:38,584 --> 00:29:44,294 I believe that the scriptures tell us that Jesus came and his cousin, John 545 00:29:44,294 --> 00:29:49,484 the Baptist, who was like the last great prophet before Jesus, when he saw him. 546 00:29:50,074 --> 00:29:52,924 He yelled out and said, this is the lamb of God. 547 00:29:52,934 --> 00:29:55,124 Who's come to take away the sin of the world. 548 00:29:55,594 --> 00:30:00,724 And Jesus, in dying on the cross as sinless, and as the son of God, 549 00:30:00,724 --> 00:30:06,504 and as God, was that last sacrifice that covered our sin, and then 550 00:30:06,504 --> 00:30:08,114 he was resurrected from the dead. 551 00:30:08,804 --> 00:30:11,874 And in doing so is still alive. 552 00:30:12,174 --> 00:30:16,984 And he ascended to God and now he's actually, testifying on 553 00:30:16,984 --> 00:30:21,724 his followers behalf that his sacrifice covers their sin. 554 00:30:22,034 --> 00:30:26,044 And so the story of the first and last sacrifice ends with me 555 00:30:26,044 --> 00:30:29,654 saying, so I actually believe that my sins can be forgiven now. 556 00:30:29,654 --> 00:30:31,204 And actually it starts and ends with that. 557 00:30:31,204 --> 00:30:33,144 So like, so when someone says. 558 00:30:33,814 --> 00:30:35,944 know, this is how I believe that my sins are forgiven. 559 00:30:36,274 --> 00:30:39,234 You can actually say, we'll see, this is where the difference is because 560 00:30:39,234 --> 00:30:41,444 I believe that my sins already. 561 00:30:41,644 --> 00:30:45,414 And I know that I'm going to spend eternity with God in paradise. 562 00:30:45,614 --> 00:30:49,254 and it's actually like the times where I've used this in that way, 563 00:30:49,254 --> 00:30:53,744 like that can actually provoke a lot of interest to somebody. 564 00:30:53,894 --> 00:30:54,934 So for a Muslim. 565 00:30:55,684 --> 00:30:59,794 who their entire life maybe has had an undercurrent of like, am I doing 566 00:30:59,794 --> 00:31:04,894 enough or a Hindu who maybe their entire life has had an undercurrent 567 00:31:04,894 --> 00:31:08,824 of like, how many lives am I going to live in the cycle of some sorrow or 568 00:31:08,824 --> 00:31:13,954 rebirth and reincarnation when they hear you say, no, I have a confidence 569 00:31:14,344 --> 00:31:19,925 that comes from outside of myself that My sin is forgiven and covered. 570 00:31:20,445 --> 00:31:24,115 And at the end of my life, there is nothing else I have to do. 571 00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:26,705 Like that actually can provoke a tremendous amount 572 00:31:26,705 --> 00:31:28,025 of interest from a hearer. 573 00:31:28,505 --> 00:31:32,885 And so getting to lostness, you tell this story and, you know, honestly, 574 00:31:33,385 --> 00:31:36,455 you can tell any story, but I think that this is really effective. 575 00:31:36,745 --> 00:31:40,085 This story, because it really encapsulates the gospel completely. 576 00:31:40,335 --> 00:31:42,765 There are other methods, and we'll probably do episodes on other 577 00:31:42,765 --> 00:31:46,105 ways to share the gospel, but I really liked this one, especially 578 00:31:46,105 --> 00:31:51,185 with people who come from a Muslim background or Hindu background where. 579 00:31:51,795 --> 00:31:53,235 There is a belief in sin. 580 00:31:53,535 --> 00:31:57,285 If you're talking to a Buddhist, then it becomes a little bit more complex. 581 00:31:57,285 --> 00:32:00,965 If you're talking to an atheist or somebody who's like you're religious, 582 00:32:01,185 --> 00:32:04,245 sometimes this can be not necessarily the best way to go about it because 583 00:32:04,245 --> 00:32:07,765 there isn't that shared belief in sin, but the story of the first and 584 00:32:07,765 --> 00:32:11,505 last sacrifice can still be really effective because that's just the 585 00:32:11,505 --> 00:32:11,814 gospel. 586 00:32:12,233 --> 00:32:16,013 Once again, operating with Shipman's contention that We're going to try 587 00:32:16,013 --> 00:32:20,103 and find the people, the Holy Spirit's leading us to, but then also operating. 588 00:32:20,113 --> 00:32:22,813 And this is where I think American Christians really need 589 00:32:22,813 --> 00:32:24,153 to hear this and receive it. 590 00:32:24,163 --> 00:32:27,248 Is most people have not heard the gospel. 591 00:32:28,563 --> 00:32:32,983 if you share the story tomorrow of the first and last sacrifice with 592 00:32:32,983 --> 00:32:35,448 somebody, and you could even say to a person listening to this podcast, 593 00:32:36,133 --> 00:32:39,753 Hey, I was listening to this Christian podcast the other day and this guy. 594 00:32:40,353 --> 00:32:42,413 Shared this story about the gospel. 595 00:32:42,493 --> 00:32:46,233 And he said, most people have not heard it this completely. 596 00:32:46,633 --> 00:32:47,763 Can I tell you this story? 597 00:32:47,763 --> 00:32:50,953 And you tell me if you've ever heard it, I bet sometimes people like, 598 00:32:50,963 --> 00:32:53,703 Oh, you know, and I, I, Mike, you've probably heard this too, but like 599 00:32:53,703 --> 00:32:55,133 people like, Oh, I grew up in church. 600 00:32:55,483 --> 00:32:57,068 I know everything about Christianity. 601 00:32:57,783 --> 00:32:58,403 You're a kid's 602 00:32:58,801 --> 00:32:59,548 Mikel: pastor. 603 00:32:59,913 --> 00:33:00,543 Jeremy: You know what I mean? 604 00:33:00,543 --> 00:33:02,513 Like, like hopefully the kids that 605 00:33:02,513 --> 00:33:03,033 are growing up. 606 00:33:03,793 --> 00:33:04,113 Yeah. 607 00:33:04,703 --> 00:33:05,563 But let's just be real. 608 00:33:05,563 --> 00:33:06,483 Like you're a kid's pastor. 609 00:33:06,523 --> 00:33:08,003 I was a youth pastor for a long time. 610 00:33:09,083 --> 00:33:10,343 I think I was a good youth 611 00:33:10,577 --> 00:33:11,338 Mikel: pastor. 612 00:33:11,503 --> 00:33:12,803 Jeremy: Your sister was in my youth groups. 613 00:33:12,803 --> 00:33:12,953 Like, 614 00:33:12,953 --> 00:33:13,993 I hope I was a good youth pastor. 615 00:33:14,023 --> 00:33:15,110 Like, but 616 00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:19,950 I am routinely surprised at some of the students that I've had 617 00:33:20,380 --> 00:33:22,005 who later on expressed to me. 618 00:33:23,015 --> 00:33:27,875 That they didn't hear something that I know I said, or that, or even more so 619 00:33:27,875 --> 00:33:32,645 like that, I'm like, well, I thought I said that, did I not, did I not explain 620 00:33:32,645 --> 00:33:32,875 that? 621 00:33:33,265 --> 00:33:38,035 And so, uh, yeah, if you go to the person in the cubicle next to you or 622 00:33:38,035 --> 00:33:43,845 the office next to you or whatever and say, Hey, I want to tell you this story, 623 00:33:44,265 --> 00:33:45,395 you tell me if you've ever heard it. 624 00:33:46,805 --> 00:33:46,955 I, 625 00:33:46,955 --> 00:33:49,215 bet you they're going to say in some form fashion. 626 00:33:49,215 --> 00:33:51,325 Well, maybe I have, but I've never heard it like that. 627 00:33:51,925 --> 00:33:55,275 And, uh, and yeah, and it's, it's, it's truly amazing. 628 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:58,975 Mikel: And I think that, you know, I love that little tip. 629 00:33:59,035 --> 00:34:00,295 It makes me think of. 630 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,940 Something similar I would do when I was working as a cabin director at a 631 00:34:05,950 --> 00:34:12,790 summer camp, when the kids would tell me that they wanted to stay up past lights 632 00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:16,980 out or curfew or something, or break some rule, I'd tell them, Guys, I can't 633 00:34:16,980 --> 00:34:18,840 let you do that or I'll get in trouble. 634 00:34:18,910 --> 00:34:24,585 You know, and it, which might not seem super connected, but it's like, It was 635 00:34:24,615 --> 00:34:29,735 my way of showing them that I'm genuine. 636 00:34:29,795 --> 00:34:33,575 I'm not just enforcing these rules to keep them from having fun. 637 00:34:33,585 --> 00:34:35,175 Like it is true. 638 00:34:35,215 --> 00:34:38,255 It is genuine and it puts it on somebody else. 639 00:34:38,265 --> 00:34:41,995 And it's not me coming out and being like trying to make them do something. 640 00:34:41,995 --> 00:34:43,755 It's like putting us on the same. 641 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,520 Level and in the same way your line of hey, I heard this Christian podcast 642 00:34:48,850 --> 00:34:52,680 and they said that not many many people have actually heard this got the gospel. 643 00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:54,420 Can I tell you the story and you tell me if you 644 00:34:54,430 --> 00:34:54,810 heard it? 645 00:34:54,810 --> 00:34:55,010 It's 646 00:34:55,010 --> 00:34:56,360 like it's. 647 00:34:57,225 --> 00:35:03,095 It takes away the, , I don't know, awkwardness or the, this, you feel 648 00:35:03,095 --> 00:35:07,945 this pressure to try to come across as genuine, and, but you feel like you're 649 00:35:07,955 --> 00:35:11,555 being disingenuous when you're, you know that the point of this conversation is 650 00:35:11,555 --> 00:35:14,445 you're hoping to convert this person or 651 00:35:14,495 --> 00:35:15,205 convince them of 652 00:35:15,325 --> 00:35:18,500 Jeremy: that, Or you're worried that like they're gonna be like, 653 00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:20,000 oh, so you think I'm a sinner? 654 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:20,510 Yeah. 655 00:35:20,570 --> 00:35:20,785 You know? 656 00:35:20,795 --> 00:35:21,275 Mikel: Yeah. 657 00:35:21,375 --> 00:35:23,645 But it puts it on a whole 658 00:35:23,645 --> 00:35:23,955 nother 659 00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:24,590 Jeremy: oh man level. 660 00:35:24,590 --> 00:35:24,620 Oh. 661 00:35:24,620 --> 00:35:25,190 It's like, oh, 662 00:35:25,665 --> 00:35:26,595 Mikel: is the situation. 663 00:35:26,595 --> 00:35:27,865 The, you can't fake. 664 00:35:29,450 --> 00:35:29,840 Jeremy: Yeah. 665 00:35:31,055 --> 00:35:33,920 i'll, I'll tell, I'll, I mean, I'll tell you what, maybe we could we'll 666 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,670 clip this and put it on Instagram and send it out in the email. 667 00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:41,720 Maybe this is the big thought experiment that we do, like Blame me. 668 00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:43,110 You know what I mean? 669 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,100 like, Hey, I heard this go and read the story. 670 00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:47,610 Go read first and last sacrifice. 671 00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:51,580 If you tell this story to somebody and mind you, they don't need to be a 672 00:35:51,580 --> 00:35:54,510 Muslim, if you're stripping it down to just the first and last sacrifice, 673 00:35:54,510 --> 00:35:56,490 like they don't need to be Muslim. 674 00:35:57,510 --> 00:35:59,780 If they go, I've heard that story. 675 00:36:00,230 --> 00:36:03,180 You can go see, I knew, I knew that guy was wrong, you know, 676 00:36:03,380 --> 00:36:04,570 but what's happened here. 677 00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:05,180 Okay. 678 00:36:05,530 --> 00:36:07,410 That person has heard the gospel. 679 00:36:07,540 --> 00:36:07,880 Right. 680 00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:08,770 And. 681 00:36:09,470 --> 00:36:12,330 I don't have enough money to make a bet with every single person 682 00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:13,400 who listens to this podcast. 683 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:18,740 but I mean, I would be willing to bet money, that you would see some 684 00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:22,990 pretty cool spiritual conversations and that you might, like I 685 00:36:22,990 --> 00:36:25,250 said, you might see people like. 686 00:36:25,845 --> 00:36:28,845 Interested in following Christ or even, and this was taking it back to 687 00:36:28,845 --> 00:36:33,715 Shipman, like the hypothesis that like, there are some people who are 688 00:36:33,715 --> 00:36:36,795 ready to receive and follow Christ now. 689 00:36:37,495 --> 00:36:41,505 And by introducing the gospel to them in this way. 690 00:36:42,270 --> 00:36:43,720 You're giving them that opportunity. 691 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:48,570 The last step in any three is get to a decision and kind of his 692 00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:52,340 suggested like bow to put on it is asking just like simple questions 693 00:36:52,340 --> 00:36:53,420 like, Hey, that makes sense. 694 00:36:53,420 --> 00:36:53,870 Doesn't it? 695 00:36:54,430 --> 00:36:58,745 And, do you believe that, , and what he's trying to get at is, Hey, give people 696 00:36:58,745 --> 00:37:01,330 the opportunity to follow Christ now. 697 00:37:02,485 --> 00:37:06,235 Some people are going to go, yeah, that makes sense, but dot, dot, dot. 698 00:37:06,405 --> 00:37:07,955 I don't believe this and this and this. 699 00:37:07,995 --> 00:37:08,315 Okay. 700 00:37:08,315 --> 00:37:08,695 That's fine. 701 00:37:09,195 --> 00:37:10,585 we can have conversations about that. 702 00:37:10,585 --> 00:37:14,515 When we talked about Jesus and Isa a couple episodes ago, like we talked about 703 00:37:14,515 --> 00:37:18,945 how the next step if they expressed an interest or an agreement, but there was 704 00:37:18,945 --> 00:37:22,795 a, but it's like, well, Hey, the answer to that question, I think is in the gospel. 705 00:37:22,805 --> 00:37:24,385 Like, would you want to sit down and read that? 706 00:37:25,565 --> 00:37:31,405 But there might be people who are like, Yeah, that makes perfect sense. 707 00:37:31,455 --> 00:37:31,705 Yeah. 708 00:37:31,755 --> 00:37:31,925 And 709 00:37:31,925 --> 00:37:33,795 I want, I want what you have. 710 00:37:34,285 --> 00:37:35,845 And then it's like, well, Hey, listen, 711 00:37:36,931 --> 00:37:37,135 the 712 00:37:37,145 --> 00:37:40,365 scriptures say that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is 713 00:37:40,365 --> 00:37:44,070 Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you're saved. 714 00:37:44,765 --> 00:37:47,015 Like, Do you believe that? 715 00:37:47,145 --> 00:37:50,675 And you know, maybe, and this is where discipleship starts I tell 716 00:37:50,675 --> 00:37:53,025 people, evangelism is actually easier than we think it is. 717 00:37:53,075 --> 00:37:54,795 Discipleship is much harder than we think it 718 00:37:54,795 --> 00:37:58,845 is because this is going to require like multiple conversations. 719 00:37:58,845 --> 00:37:59,115 Right. 720 00:37:59,445 --> 00:38:02,135 Um, but, but of course too, this is a person you met on the 721 00:38:02,135 --> 00:38:05,525 street in a country that you're not from or something like that. 722 00:38:06,095 --> 00:38:09,995 Hey, if the worst thing that happens is they accept the gospel and then never 723 00:38:09,995 --> 00:38:12,595 see you again, like Got to work that out, 724 00:38:12,695 --> 00:38:13,105 you know, 725 00:38:13,365 --> 00:38:16,265 but, um, but yeah, so give him the opportunity to make that decision. 726 00:38:16,265 --> 00:38:20,055 I tell people all the time, give people the opportunity to say no to the gospel. 727 00:38:20,345 --> 00:38:25,215 Like most people who don't follow Christ, it's not that they said no to him. 728 00:38:25,245 --> 00:38:28,055 It's that they were never given the opportunity to say yes. 729 00:38:28,535 --> 00:38:32,265 And so, there you kind of have like that big picture of any three like these 730 00:38:32,265 --> 00:38:35,975 five steps If you're interested in it, you can read all these resources and 731 00:38:35,975 --> 00:38:40,195 all that stuff But for everybody even if you're listening to this and you're 732 00:38:40,195 --> 00:38:44,275 like, I don't know like this sounds kind of like bull I don't know that it's 733 00:38:44,275 --> 00:38:47,605 that simple this and this and this it isn't that simple I mean conversations 734 00:38:47,605 --> 00:38:50,145 are hard, but it's not as hard as you 735 00:38:50,165 --> 00:38:50,355 think. 736 00:38:50,355 --> 00:38:50,465 it 737 00:38:50,488 --> 00:38:50,630 Mikel: yeah. 738 00:38:50,705 --> 00:38:53,675 And Jeremy's already given you permission to blame him for 739 00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:54,500 Jeremy: a hundred percent. 740 00:38:54,890 --> 00:38:55,520 a hundred percent. 741 00:38:55,565 --> 00:38:55,685 Mikel: I 742 00:38:55,685 --> 00:38:56,645 listen to this podcast. 743 00:38:56,645 --> 00:39:00,495 I'm part trying to participate in this community and this guy wants me to. 744 00:39:01,510 --> 00:39:02,170 Share the gospel. 745 00:39:02,170 --> 00:39:04,480 'cause he says that people haven't heard it can, this might feel 746 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,950 awkward, but can we, can I share 747 00:39:05,950 --> 00:39:06,610 the story with you, 748 00:39:07,220 --> 00:39:09,850 Jeremy: Well, and what's funny is like, I use that, I use that 749 00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:11,160 kind of thing all the time. 750 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:15,140 And, and it is genuine, like, you know, because like coming from 751 00:39:15,140 --> 00:39:17,240 academia, I use that all the time. 752 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:18,620 I go, Hey, listen, I read this book. 753 00:39:18,930 --> 00:39:19,320 Mikel: yeah. 754 00:39:19,705 --> 00:39:23,535 Jeremy: And I, I read this, you know, thing about Islam or Hinduism. 755 00:39:24,365 --> 00:39:27,925 let me ask you a couple of questions and just, you tell me what you And 756 00:39:28,075 --> 00:39:30,265 like the answer to that is always, yes. 757 00:39:30,285 --> 00:39:30,605 You know what I 758 00:39:30,655 --> 00:39:30,915 Mikel: I mean? 759 00:39:30,915 --> 00:39:31,045 Oh 760 00:39:31,925 --> 00:39:32,435 yeah, you want, 761 00:39:32,655 --> 00:39:34,165 Jeremy: you want to know more about me? 762 00:39:34,165 --> 00:39:34,925 Yeah, exactly. 763 00:39:34,925 --> 00:39:35,135 You know? 764 00:39:35,345 --> 00:39:36,705 And I said, well, what do you think about this? 765 00:39:36,705 --> 00:39:37,265 What do you think about that? 766 00:39:37,265 --> 00:39:37,825 Oh, okay. 767 00:39:37,825 --> 00:39:38,425 That's interesting. 768 00:39:38,455 --> 00:39:42,195 You know, and then, you know, you pivot that to, well, let me tell you, this is 769 00:39:42,195 --> 00:39:43,645 what I was thinking when I read that. 770 00:39:43,715 --> 00:39:46,155 , and there is a sort of like deferred authority. 771 00:39:46,455 --> 00:39:47,545 And I do think. 772 00:39:48,060 --> 00:39:52,930 That in the American context, that is one of the things that keeps 773 00:39:52,940 --> 00:39:59,750 people from sharing the gospel is they, they don't feel like they are a 774 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,720 worthy emissary to share the gospel. 775 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:06,010 Like, I don't know enough or my life's not put together enough or 776 00:40:06,140 --> 00:40:09,030 well, what if they question me like, Hey, I know you're a sinner too. 777 00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:10,480 And so we just don't do it. 778 00:40:10,850 --> 00:40:11,440 And so. 779 00:40:11,830 --> 00:40:15,070 If, if that helps you at all to say like, Oh, I was listening to this podcast or 780 00:40:15,070 --> 00:40:19,220 I was reading this book or I heard this thing and I just wanted to see what you 781 00:40:19,220 --> 00:40:21,605 thought of That's better than nothing. 782 00:40:22,570 --> 00:40:23,960 That's much better than nothing. 783 00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:27,180 I think I've said it too on the podcast, but like I've been thinking 784 00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:30,380 about this quote a lot and I need to figure out if it was moody or Spurgeon. 785 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:31,870 I can't remember, but I think it was Spurgeon. 786 00:40:32,975 --> 00:40:36,275 But in talking about evangelism, he was challenged. 787 00:40:36,305 --> 00:40:40,455 Probably he gave these, he gave these huge altar calls like in hundreds 788 00:40:40,455 --> 00:40:44,955 or thousands of people would come and inevitably he was questioned. 789 00:40:44,965 --> 00:40:47,635 Like, do you really think that's the most effective way to do this? 790 00:40:47,635 --> 00:40:51,375 You know, and his response, and it might be apocryphal, I'm going to find 791 00:40:51,375 --> 00:40:51,625 out 792 00:40:52,395 --> 00:40:55,535 was something along the lines of, I like my way of doing it 793 00:40:55,695 --> 00:40:57,185 better than your way of not doing 794 00:40:58,285 --> 00:40:59,005 And I think. 795 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:07,490 The church in the United States is full of every evangelism idea with very little 796 00:41:07,490 --> 00:41:11,260 suggestion on how to improve it or, or what's the, what's your preferred way. 797 00:41:11,390 --> 00:41:14,190 So I, if I come across somebody who doesn't like any 798 00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:16,540 three, But they're doing it. 799 00:41:16,590 --> 00:41:17,720 I go, Hey man, that's cool. 800 00:41:17,730 --> 00:41:19,170 Like, I'm good with that. 801 00:41:19,180 --> 00:41:22,310 Like your way of doing it is great as long as doing it. 802 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,950 If you're not doing it, you should absolutely not criticize 803 00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:27,090 it. 804 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:27,940 You know what I mean? 805 00:41:28,290 --> 00:41:34,930 Um, and so like, just, yeah, try Like I don't, I don't want to see, I don't 806 00:41:34,930 --> 00:41:36,510 want to sound like a flippant, you know 807 00:41:36,510 --> 00:41:36,890 what I mean? 808 00:41:36,890 --> 00:41:38,070 Like give Jesus a try. 809 00:41:38,070 --> 00:41:40,680 That's not what I'm saying, but like, like try this. 810 00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:44,535 I a hundred percent will guarantee it will go better than you think it does. 811 00:41:49,755 --> 00:41:54,705 Mikel: It is, connect, make a connection, just talk to the person, get to know 812 00:41:54,705 --> 00:41:59,835 them, get to God somehow, find out what they believe about God, and then 813 00:41:59,835 --> 00:42:01,685 I know the next one is about sin, what 814 00:42:01,710 --> 00:42:01,760 Jeremy: is 815 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:01,780 it? 816 00:42:01,790 --> 00:42:03,390 Get to lostness. 817 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,090 Yeah, so you're broaching the subject on sin in some capacity. 818 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,010 Mikel: Yes. 819 00:42:08,190 --> 00:42:09,270 Get to lostness. 820 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,230 Then the 821 00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:10,890 gospel. 822 00:42:10,895 --> 00:42:10,995 What 823 00:42:10,995 --> 00:42:11,075 is 824 00:42:11,075 --> 00:42:11,155 it? 825 00:42:11,175 --> 00:42:11,395 the 826 00:42:11,395 --> 00:42:11,475 gospel, 827 00:42:11,580 --> 00:42:12,750 Get to the gospel 828 00:42:13,470 --> 00:42:13,770 and 829 00:42:13,770 --> 00:42:14,640 then decision. 830 00:42:14,850 --> 00:42:16,650 Get to a decision and give the, yeah. 831 00:42:17,460 --> 00:42:20,640 Put the ball in their court where they have to either, yeah. 832 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,510 Say yes 833 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:22,190 Jeremy: what do you think of 834 00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:24,380 this if say, I think that's stupid. 835 00:42:26,180 --> 00:42:27,370 do you think is stupid about it? 836 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:28,020 You know what I mean? 837 00:42:28,020 --> 00:42:28,750 Like, don't argue with that. 838 00:42:28,870 --> 00:42:30,110 Well, I don't think it's stupid. 839 00:42:30,110 --> 00:42:31,840 You know, it's like, no, like, well, what do you think is stupid? 840 00:42:31,890 --> 00:42:32,940 I think it's stupid. 841 00:42:33,420 --> 00:42:36,210 You know, somebody who's going to say, I think it's dumb to think that Jesus could 842 00:42:36,210 --> 00:42:40,150 have been Oh, why do you think Right. 843 00:42:40,170 --> 00:42:40,700 And then, right. 844 00:42:40,750 --> 00:42:44,340 Like, this is, see, this is where I get really excited. 845 00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:44,730 Yeah. 846 00:42:44,890 --> 00:42:48,630 Like, cause I'm like, Oh, you're giving me permission to have a conversation with 847 00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:49,950 you about like something really spiritual. 848 00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:51,650 I go, listen, I'm going to blow your mind. 849 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:52,560 God does stuff. 850 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:53,810 Miracles all the time. 851 00:42:54,545 --> 00:42:55,165 this is what I believe. 852 00:42:55,165 --> 00:42:58,105 I believe this whole world is full of this merging of the 853 00:42:58,115 --> 00:42:59,345 natural and the supernatural. 854 00:42:59,345 --> 00:43:00,635 I actually don't think that the two merge. 855 00:43:00,635 --> 00:43:02,145 I think that there, you know what I mean? 856 00:43:02,145 --> 00:43:06,315 And so it's if there is an obstacle, don't stop. 857 00:43:06,615 --> 00:43:07,285 You know what I mean? 858 00:43:07,315 --> 00:43:10,345 Just ask, well, why do you think that Frank Turek, pretty well known 859 00:43:10,345 --> 00:43:13,795 apologist, he, he's actually been on the podcast a long time ago. 860 00:43:14,155 --> 00:43:17,435 He he's really well known for sort of formulating these questions of well, 861 00:43:17,445 --> 00:43:19,155 how did you come to that conclusion? 862 00:43:19,865 --> 00:43:22,395 What made you, what made you think that? 863 00:43:22,740 --> 00:43:22,880 You 864 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,160 know, 865 00:43:23,580 --> 00:43:26,250 and I, I find that those questions are really valuable because a lot 866 00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:32,490 of people have these like operative beliefs and they don't have a reason. 867 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:34,590 They just don't like what you have to say, you know? 868 00:43:34,590 --> 00:43:37,270 So I mean like, Oh, I don't believe it because of this. 869 00:43:37,530 --> 00:43:40,950 Well, what makes you say that, And what you might find is like, they 870 00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:42,650 don't know what makes them say that. 871 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,960 And so it's something that you can engage them on, you know, but yeah, 872 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:46,950 it'll go better than you think it 873 00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:50,860 Mikel: And, something I want to clarify a little bit too, we've talked, uh, for 874 00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:54,970 most of this episode we've been talking about Muslims and reaching Islam with 875 00:43:54,970 --> 00:43:57,920 any theory, because that was kind of what it was originally designed for, and it 876 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:03,270 works really well for Islam because we know that there is overlap in what Islam 877 00:44:03,820 --> 00:44:05,720 believes about God and about people. 878 00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:10,070 Sin, that we have sin, and that's where we can, we can 879 00:44:10,070 --> 00:44:13,200 get at least to get to lostness 880 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,160 in this process um, easily. 881 00:44:16,530 --> 00:44:19,920 But it also will work with people outside of Islam. 882 00:44:20,010 --> 00:44:23,410 It's, it's gonna be very useful, like you just said, most people in 883 00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:25,210 America have not heard the gospel. 884 00:44:25,550 --> 00:44:30,650 Especially in, we're in the Bible Belt, you know, they're, same 885 00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:34,730 deal, where they're all at least gonna say, They believe in God, 886 00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:38,750 for the most part, most people, no, everybody, yeah. 887 00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:41,210 Um, so use it, you 888 00:44:41,210 --> 00:44:42,250 don't have to use it 889 00:44:42,570 --> 00:44:42,790 Jeremy: Yeah. 890 00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:48,270 And as we, as, as in ATAP, we're, we're, we've, we've really begun in the last 891 00:44:48,270 --> 00:44:52,360 year or two to focus almost exclusively on the States because the United States 892 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:53,930 is far less reached than we think it is. 893 00:44:53,930 --> 00:44:59,010 And, you know, there, there are populations in the United States 894 00:44:59,310 --> 00:45:02,365 that are overwhelmingly, Arab. 895 00:45:03,145 --> 00:45:07,095 So like places like Detroit, Michigan, or the suburbs around it, if you live 896 00:45:07,095 --> 00:45:10,565 in a big city, there is a neighborhood, multiple neighborhoods in your city 897 00:45:10,915 --> 00:45:15,705 that are predominantly Arab and not that all Arabs are Muslim, but 898 00:45:15,705 --> 00:45:17,915 the predominant religion in that neighborhood is going to be Islam. 899 00:45:17,935 --> 00:45:23,310 And so, um, So yes, this can be effective, uh, certainly overseas. 900 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:29,030 It was developed overseas, but as we at ATAP seek to explore the darkest 901 00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:31,670 places and least Reached peoples in the United States to engage them with 902 00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:36,290 the gospel, um, this is not a tool that can be used exclusively overseas. 903 00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:38,760 In fact, it needs to be used more in the United States. 904 00:45:39,090 --> 00:45:42,460 And as Mike said, it doesn't need to be just used with Muslims. 905 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,980 I, I, I know it was developed for Muslims. 906 00:45:44,980 --> 00:45:46,880 I know that it's most effective for Muslims. 907 00:45:47,820 --> 00:45:51,210 But it can certainly be tweaked and modified, but then at the core of it, 908 00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:54,710 what, like what we've referred to a couple of times now is like this sort 909 00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:58,350 of this open ended challenge to just tell somebody the story of the first and 910 00:45:58,350 --> 00:46:03,855 last sacrifice, which is just telling somebody the gospel, um, like that story. 911 00:46:04,875 --> 00:46:07,275 Can make sense to anybody. 912 00:46:07,995 --> 00:46:09,605 It doesn't need to be a Muslim. 913 00:46:09,865 --> 00:46:14,345 And so, or, or somebody who agrees that sin is a problem, the gospel is beautiful. 914 00:46:14,385 --> 00:46:17,275 It's the most beautiful thing has ever, ever kind of like 915 00:46:17,525 --> 00:46:19,105 taken sight of taking hold of. 916 00:46:19,465 --> 00:46:22,815 And so we want to operate on this conviction that we see Shipman and 917 00:46:22,815 --> 00:46:28,155 his team operated on to develop this method is, is that, um, Holy 918 00:46:28,155 --> 00:46:31,015 spirit is preparing somebody in your neighborhood right now to hear gospel. 919 00:46:31,635 --> 00:46:37,665 And more than likely the that you share the gospel with might not have ever And 920 00:46:37,665 --> 00:46:43,445 if you operate on those two things, then a lot of those fears and anxieties and 921 00:46:43,455 --> 00:46:51,485 obstacles that we use to keep us from sharing the gospel begin to And what 922 00:46:51,485 --> 00:46:55,285 becomes more important is I want as many people as possible to hear the gospel. 923 00:46:55,585 --> 00:47:00,070 And I'm going to operate on an understanding that tells me God 924 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,210 has made a way for it to happen. 925 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,440 I don't need to contrive this situation. 926 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,040 I don't need to like, like be friends with this for three years before I can share 927 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:10,120 the 928 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:10,455 gospel. 929 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,840 somebody might accept Christ today, if we operate on those 930 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,070 convictions, amazing things will 931 00:47:17,332 --> 00:47:17,947 Mikel: things happen. 932 00:47:17,947 --> 00:47:18,975 Yeah, absolutely. 933 00:47:18,975 --> 00:47:19,765 You don't have to 934 00:47:20,515 --> 00:47:21,215 force it 935 00:47:21,275 --> 00:47:21,815 to happen. 936 00:47:21,815 --> 00:47:23,705 You just get to participate in what God's 937 00:47:23,705 --> 00:47:24,205 doing. 938 00:47:24,690 --> 00:47:25,245 Jeremy: exactly.