Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

I'm walking in the rain in Paris at the Jardin de Tuileries.

I'm stoked about today's episode.

It is with Matt Trappy.

That's right.

T, R A, P P E spells Trappy, not Trapp.

I think from a branding standpoint, he should consider rebranding to Matt Trapp.

But this is his name and this episode is all about branding from a super unique perspective from an expert in the space.

Not only is he an expert though, everything that he does is entirely in the space of running or at least public facing the stuff that we know about.

So this is an episode where we rifle through the top brands.

What's making them great, what's making certain brands really good, but not great, and how do we go from good to great in general?

It's just an enjoyable conversation that flew by for me.

I think you're going to enjoy it.

Before we get to it though, I hope you check out Devil's Gulch 100 next July.

I think it's one of the coolest hundred milers, new hundred milers in the country.

It's that very specific, very just sort of brilliant American trail race that I hope that you'll all give it a shot and go next July up to Wenatchee, Washington.

Also, I've got a survey that I would love it if you take.

Actually there's two of them, but if you just pick one, would you pick the one about the podcast?

I'm just trying to understand how you all are thinking about it, how you're feeling about it.

Takes about a minute and a half.

Then I got a separate one in there that takes about 60 seconds.

That's all about the app that I'm building.

Your feedback is the only way that this can get better.

And I really want all of this to get better.

So I'd love it if you would take a sec and do that for me.

Also, I am gearing up for something that I think will be super interesting.

It's not final yet.

It's called Roby House.

It's a brand activation that I'm looking to do at Western States next summer.

I want to hear from you if you have any interest at all in seeing something from a Borderlands perspective, from a lighthearted perspective, a non elite perspective at Western States.

So hit me up if you like the sound of that.

And then one last thing we now want to hear back from you for bad runner's take, if you'll call Runmore649.

That's Runmore649.

Or you can text, but I'd rather you call, leave a message, and talk about anything related to running that you want me and Brian Wolf Runner Peterson to talk about together on a future episode.

All right, here's my friend Matt Trappy.

I love this dude.

I love his take on life, I love his take on brands.

And I think, regardless of where you're at in this journey of understanding brands, that you will simply enjoy the conversation.

Here we go.

It's too cold.

Too.

Damn cold to.

I wasn't a.

I wasn't a great student in college.

I hated college.

I hated school, hated everything about it.

But I did.

I failed out of the entrepreneurship school at the University of Utah, and I had, like, two hours to pick a new major, and I went with strategic communication with an emphasis on branding.

And I enjoyed it a lot.

But this one professor made me read word for word, an entire textbook.

And at the end of the textbook, after like, four weeks of review, review, review, he said, there's only one thing I want you to know is that everything communicates something, and I'll never forget it.

I wish he had just told me that.

But I read this whole book and so everything communicates something, and I feel like I get it academically.

I even have some intuition around branding, and I obsess over branding.

But my guest today is, like, the most satisfying read that I've heard on branding.

I mean, that I've read.

And I mean it.

You're laughing, but I mean it.

So first, Matt, welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you for all that you're doing about branding.

I don't know how.

I can't wait to learn more about you and that, and I can't.

Can't wait to have the deep dive into branding.

So welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

I'm coming at it, I think, from a slightly different perspective than a lot of people maybe come at branding.

I being from, like, a really strong storytelling and creative background.

And, yeah, I don't have all the answers.

I'm not right on everything.

But I like writing about it, I like thinking about it, and I just put it out there to hopefully get others doing the same.

But you have.

But you have opinions, and that's.

That's what I like.

I like when people have opinions and they're strong opinions and they're generally backed up.

And even aside from having opinions about it, the thing that really got me most excited about, you know, when I originally reached out to you was your article on just, I don't know how, I mean, just riffing on ideas of.

Here, here's some, here's things that these certain brands could do for their sort of in person installations at events or anything like that that would just be more memorable.

And each one was super memorable.

And I just got, I got really pumped on it.

Yeah, thanks there.

And that's like, those are kind of difficult because they're just random ideas.

Some of them will apply, I don't know the ins and outs of every brand situation.

Right.

So some will apply better to others, some will make no sense for whatever brand I may suggest it for.

But from an outsider perspective, they're just ways to think about things differently, help you stand out a bit and really just provide value for the community and for the sport.

Because yeah, we all love, we love those things.

We love going to races and doing all this stuff and being in it.

Everybody's geeking out, everybody's.

Nobody's doing this because they have to.

Everybody's in this because they love it.

And so, yeah, I just like contributing to that.

Yeah.

And I don't think we even notice when brands are doing a good job at it.

I've seen your hat.

I think it says North Face on it.

It's a North Face.

It makes me think of the old North Face endurance runs.

That's where I really cut my teeth on trail.

And they were fantastic.

Like when I now, after having my events and going to so many events, they were so good at pulling that off and I just, I.

And what it has accomplished with me and I'd love to know your take on what if this is what they want.

All it's really given to me is like a fond feeling for North Face.

And I can't put my finger on.

It's just like when I see North Face, I think, oh man, my first 50k attempt, my first 50 mile attempt, the mountains of Park City.

Like when I think of North Face, I think of that event.

Is that the goal?

I mean, is that, is that where they're going with these things?

Well, like you said before, everything communicates something.

And I think events, whether you're sponsoring or activating at them or they're like owned events like they are, you know, the North Face under challenge.

Yeah, they, they help to communicate that experience and that message of your brand.

And they're one of several ways to do that, but a really effective one, particularly post Covid, because people are just even more excited about doing amazing things and having experiences in person instead of, you know, digitally.

Like we spent two years or whatever, like just confined to.

So yeah, yeah, they're, they're huge.

And you're spot on there.

The North Face events are awesome.

Yeah, yeah.

And in the intro that you didn't hear here, you know, I'm going into some more detail about, you know, who you are and what you've done.

But let's hit some of the high level from your perspective here.

Sure.

Of, you know, what makes you think that you can go right about brands the way that you do?

You know, where are you coming from?

What's your background?

So I have more of a marketing background than I think people realize.

A lot of people know I've, you know, I've taken a lot of photos, I've made a lot of films and that's a huge part of it.

But I mean I went to, I went to business school years ago.

I was a marketing entrepreneurship strategy focus and I worked at two different startups in a different world, like in, in the biotech world, but small companies, you know, I ran marketing, I worked in sales and just had a massive input on new product development.

Like all of our outbound marketing, inbound marketing did a lot on a, on a really high level.

I mean it was a startup.

So we had a board of directors.

I was, you know, accountable for presenting on our marketing, our progress, a lot of our sales numbers to that board and those investors.

And I learned a ton.

I learned a ton.

I wanted to do something that was a little bit more creatively fulfilling, like, you know, being very much like a dual brained person.

And that was why I moved over into, into more creative field.

But I came to, so I came to shooting photos, I came to making films like from that mindset.

Like that was how I always looked at this.

I didn't go to art school or anything like that.

I was always very much thinking about branding and marketing and the strategy behind things.

And over the course of 10, 12 years of making films and shooting campaigns, I gathered just a lot of information from watching dozens and dozens of brands do this in different ways at different events, at different, you know, from campaigns to films to athlete teams, the athlete summits and you name it.

So I got to see a lot of things done a lot of different ways.

And I think my mindset approaching branding now is very much from this storytelling perspective.

Like I think I can take a lot of, you know, intangible ideas and things happening out there and like run a thread through like a cohesive storyline that links a lot of things.

I think a lot of creators can do that.

I think a lot of photographers, a lot of filmmakers are really good at that.

And that's, I mean, that's really the essence of branding, is creating and communicating then this storyline about what the brand means and what a brand stands for and relaying that to people.

And I look at, say, making a film, you have all of these different components that go into a film, from your music to your voiceover, to transitions to graphics, the color treatment, all these come together to cohesively like, you know, relay a story or a mood.

And you dynamically move those up and down throughout.

You know, it's part of good storytelling.

And there's so many parallels to two brands there that I look at.

You know, athletes and products and retail and activations and all these things as, you know, the sound design and the color treatment, they're just, they're just different tools that you can use to relay what your brand is all about.

And so that's sort of the perspective that, that I'm coming to all of this with.

And yeah, I just have a lot of ideas.

I formed a lot of opinions over seeing a lot of things and I'm writing about it and hopefully that just gets everybody else thinking about this too.

Yeah, well, you know, I keep saying it's a great read, we'll link it in the show, notes, your substack, but let's just kind of, let's do some of it in real time.

I sent you some questions beforehand, you know, generally where we're going, but this is, you know, this is the stuff that, oh, I just love it.

And I think, you know, you're offering perspective on athlete contracts, all this sort of stuff, but you're pushing it through this lens of brand.

And so I think maybe the first question I think anyone would be curious to know is, is there a brand that's, that's firing on all cylinders?

And when I say all cylinders, I'm using your list.

Story, product, events, cultural relevance, retail, athletes, aesthetic, you know, everything.

Is there any trail running brand that's just crushing it on all of them?

So let me.

Do you want me to talk through those sort of criteria that I'm looking at?

Yeah, maybe.

Or do you want me to dive right into it?

Oh, you choose.

Okay, I'll do a quick overview.

So a way that I like to look at it is I have six different categories that for me, if you're really hitting on all of These, you're doing branding really, really well.

So the first is the story, you know, the message of the brand, your voice, your behavior, how the brand, you know, it sort of shows up from a personality perspective.

Related to that is the aesthetic.

So you know, the frame visually that your brand shows up in.

And then you have obvious things like products, you know, if you're doing products really well and all these things need to align, like your products and your story, there needs to be some cohesion there.

Events, you know, whether owned events, meaning like, you know, the North Face Endurance Challenge or activated events, you know, your.

You're showing up at UTMB or wherever and you have, you know, some activation there.

Hey.

On January 18th, I am hosting a run with Billy Yang in Salt Lake City.

I'll be coming back from Paris.

I'll be in Salt Lake city for about 36 hours to host you all on a run with Billy and then do a live recording of a podcast with Billy Yang, complete with a question and answer.

I'd love to have you join me.

If you're in Salt Lake City or surrounding area, the people who will be able to register first are those who are signed up for the race that I put on with my buddies, Open range races that's put on by PATH Projects, and PATH Projects is helping make this event happen.

So mark your calendars for January 18th.

Soon you'll be able to sign up.

It will be free, but it will require a ticket because seating will be limited for the podcast.

But the run is open to everybody and we hope to have thousands and thousands and thousands.

All right, back to Matt.

Cultural relevance.

That's a very intangible one.

That's sort of the, the conversation, the how current your brand is in, you know, like modern culture, maybe the news, but also like style, music.

How else does the brand sort of permeate into your life outside of, you know, simply providing a running product?

Retail, both owned, whether you have your own stores, you know, like, like Hoka has some of their own stores now.

Nike, of course, has a lot of their own stores or activated within retail.

Like, Brooks does that super, super well.

Right.

They work really well with run specialty.

And then sort of the last one, which is a little harder to decipher, is the internal team and the culture.

Yeah, it's kind of, kind of inside baseball on that one.

It is.

And like, I know a bit of it being in the industry, but no one knows everything about every brand, you know, inside and out.

Are there just some kind of superstars crushing it and a big Thing for me in that area is like, which brands do you seek when you go to a race?

Which people at the brands are just part of the community.

That goes really far for me in that category where you show up and the athlete manager from the north face is just there because of course she's always there and those sorts of things.

I think that goes really far away.

Story, products, events, cultural relevance, retail, aesthetic, and then that internal team.

So based on those who's sort of crushing it.

I spent a little bit of time thinking about this before.

I don't want to.

And it's important to note.

Let me put this disclaimer out there so you don't have to.

We might get negative on some of.

This sort of stuff.

This is purely for a fun of branding and a hope that if we do throw anything out there that it would be constructive.

You know, any brands listening in, we're just having a good time here.

We love.

This is as much about geeking out about branding and not about, you know, trying to tear down any brands.

But at first we're gonna.

You're gonna crown, you know, who you think's the best.

Well, a lot of these are based on your perceptions too.

Everyone lives in, you know, different worlds, especially digitally.

We all have like our own little algorithmic silos that we're in.

So everybody has differing opinions.

And as a brand, like, your big job is to listen to all of this, you know, decipher it, because what the community is saying about your brand is really what you're all about, regardless of what you think internally.

So that sort of listening is a big component along those lines.

Anyway, I had like, I had a few.

I had three that I kind of thought of in the trail running world that for me, I think are putting a lot of these things together.

The first one is Solomon.

I think Solomon does a good job with their story.

Their products are strong events.

The Golden Trail series, I think is really strong and is going to become something stronger for them because it's.

It's differentiated, right?

It's on the.

It's the shorter races.

It stands out from all the hundred big hundreds and things out there.

Um, you could probably say the same on the other side of the spectrum of the 2002, but the.

It's more inviting for maybe people into getting into trail running that maybe want to start with a shorter distance.

So I think that's a good asset.

Cultural relevance.

I think they have the sports style angle that kind of carries people and carries the brand outside of, you know, pure performance.

They have really great athletes.

You know, they're in.

They're in the news for a lot of those reasons.

The relevance is there.

Retail.

I think they're activating better and better with, you know, run specialty, speaking from the, you know, U.S.

perspective.

But they have a lot of their own stores, and they opened one in New York recently.

So retail is coming along.

Aesthetically, I think they're more distinct than most to just be recognized.

And yeah, the internal team and the culture, I think they do a really good job there, too.

A lot of people in that brand really live the sport and live that outdoor mountain world that the brand stands for.

So I think that's a strong run.

What do you think?

My thing that first comes to mind for them after many of the things that you said, like.

Yeah.

Is how they've accomplished the.

What would you call it, Streetwear or city lifestyle.

Yeah, yeah.

Here.

Here in Paris, they have.

I've seen two of their brick and mortars.

Stunning.

I mean, just stunning.

I can't imagine they sell anything.

It's like art.

It's like you're going into a museum.

It's just beautiful.

It's all branding.

Yes.

It's the window shopping.

The goal.

And maybe you could speak to this, too.

Is the goal to actually sell at these stores or is the goal to have.

Is this essentially, you know, an activation for them?

You know, is it a cost?

I mean, look at revenue generator.

Yeah.

I mean, look, I haven't been specifically responsible for one of those stores before, but if you have one in a really prime location, I think that says a lot about your brand, what you stand for.

You know, trying to be a premium product or premium brand, you know, setting up right on, you know, Fifth Avenue in New York or wherever, that all communicates things.

And if.

And if the shop makes money or breaks even, I think that's great.

But there's a huge advertising component, there's a huge proximity component, events you can have, and the people you can get into the shop and then potentially wary.

All those go into that.

So, yeah, that there's a lot of value outside, strictly like, you know, bottom line revenue of that.

That shop, specifically.

Yeah.

And then you see people, I mean, all over in America, in here, but here especially, a lot of people are wearing trail shoes, and they're nowhere near running a trail.

And these shoes will never touch a trail.

Can you speak to.

I mean, just as a.

As a guess, as an insight, like, what's the play there for them?

Is it just like they've identified a market that you know who will buy it.

It seems like it's sometimes connected to, like, the Japanese streetwear thing, which I'm.

I'm far from being in style, so, you know, I can't speak to that, but it seems connected to that world.

I love all that stuff.

I think it's really, really fun and interesting.

It's very creative to, you know, think about what you perceive as being in style or not in style or what you want to wear.

It's all really personal to you.

So I think that's all really, really fun.

It's not science based.

It's like art.

And that's why I really like it.

It's.

And the second you can really easily define and fit something in a box and, like, quantify it, I'm kind of bored with it.

It's like, let's try to figure out all this other kind of intangible stuff that has a lot of appeal, but try to define why.

And so that falls into that category for me.

I think it.

I think it brings people into the brand when they're not.

When they're not running.

If you're.

If you support, say, Solomon, for example, or, you know, North Face, a lot of brands do this.

They.

You can wear it around the clock.

That's a big revenue opportunity for them.

You can identify with the brand and align with them when you're not necessarily out on the trail or out on a run.

And that's.

That's really the majority of everybody's time.

So there's.

There's a huge opportunity there.

In just about every business that I've ever started been a part of, I've never been the product partner.

I'm not.

We.

We kind of texted about this briefly, and you're not a big product guy.

I'm not a big product.

I'm far from product and I'm an entrepreneur and I can manage.

But most this.

The evidence of this most is embodied by.

I would run in Salomon shoes and my feet are too fat for them, and I would try and run a hundred milers in them because I liked the way my feet looked when I looked down.

That's all that goes really far, doesn't it?

It goes really far.

I mean, you bought those and just for that, really, just for that reason, you probably tried them on in the store and you convinced yourself that they fit exactly right.

That happens.

There's a lot of value in that.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, so.

So I would say Solomon has accomplished that.

And then being here in France, I'm blown away by Annecy, where they're from.

Yeah.

Just how influential that part of the world is for trail, for mountain running, you know, everything.

It's, it's, it's, it's a special area.

So I've grown especially fond since I've been living here.

Yeah, I think there's a lot to that.

You know, another brand with a presence there that I had on my, the top of my list too was, was the North Face.

I think they're, you know, when you were doing your product deep dives, they've come a long way in that footwear particularly category.

And yeah, I think a lot of what they're doing on, you know, in all this criteria that I've been talking about, I think they're coming along really well there as well.

Yeah.

I mean, they've sponsored Trans Grand Canaria now like a really, really big race in the.

Okay.

In the Canary Islands.

I didn't know that.

And yeah, I think, yeah, I want to give North Face a nod.

I really like what they're doing.

Kind of returning to maybe a bit of where they were brand wise in years past, you know, when we were talking about really admiring them, but now doing it with product that's a lot more legit and credible.

So, yeah, what I love about again, you know, it comes back to me like, what makes me remember them.

I mean, when you think of a brand like where does your mind instantly go?

With North Face, I instantly go to is Zach and Katie and what they wear at utmb.

I think North Face does a fantastic job of creating memorable, you know, I'm gonna say outfits.

I don't know the right way to say it for, for its teams, it's really, they're really memorable.

The purple, the really like nice, like tannish shorts, like, it just, there's stuff that calls to memory that they, they've done a great job with.

Yeah, I agree that the color that they went with this past year at utme, we could probably argue over whether it's blue or purple.

I think the point of it is to be in between.

Really?

Really?

Yeah.

But it, but it's really memorable.

Like.

Yes.

Right.

That I don't know that I personally really liked it, but I still really remember it and I can picture it in my head and when I think about, you know, what you just brought up right now about those athletes and their wins this past year, that popped, you know, right front and center in my head.

So it works.

Yeah.

And I was surprised to learn from Taylor Bodine on those.

The Deep dives.

You know, he's the product expert of just how good those shoes are, their current portfolio, just how it's the most underrated.

And then I was fortunate enough to go have dinner with Jean Marc Dijon here in Paris after Taylor said, hey, this is, you know, this is the guy.

And then all of a sudden Satisfye hires them like, oh, he's here.

I'm just going to email him.

And we had dinner.

He wasn't up for having a podcast.

He's real introverted.

But just to like sit and chat with this legend of shoes was something otherworldly.

Yeah, he, I was fortunate to meet him before he, you know, moved over to Satisfy when he was based in the Denver area here with.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I got, I got to meet him here through, through my friend Brett Rivers, who I want to give a shout to.

Brett's doing a really good job at North Face too.

I think will carry on a lot of what Jean Marc was is working on.

So the best thing I can say about Jean Marc is that when we sat down to talk, he only wanted to ask me questions.

Not.

And that, that's not about me.

It's just, you know, that type of person who just is always cares about who else is in the room and wants to learn about other people.

I was really impressed by that.

For someone who's that important, you know.

Yes.

And while being that curious about other people and about other ideas is the reason he's as successful as he is.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So North Face Sullivan, super solid choices.

What's.

What's your third.

Yeah, so the third I have is probably on a lot of people's list, but I think satisfies doing a lot.

Yeah, right.

They're hitting for a smaller brand that's hitting on a lot of those areas.

I mean they even have their own events.

The sad hundred that they have in the.

Yeah.

In Arizona here that they're just really doing a lot of.

A lot of what you need to do on a smaller scale and I think they have a lot of really great growth brands and I'm excited to see what they have at tre here next week.

They've got a lot of new.

Oh yeah.

I mean I thought they were going to be dropping a shoe there but they already released it.

The.

But I thought they were coming out with an in house shoe that Jean Marc De Jean was doing.

I don't understand.

We're going to find out.

Yeah, we're going to find out.

And apparently there's Women's apparel coming, too.

So.

Okay.

Yeah, so I'm excited to see all of that, but they're.

They're just.

They're storytelling and communicating through all these different channels is.

Is really outstanding.

They have a message and they have a visual, and it's really distinct.

Yeah.

And they do a really great job.

And that's.

That's why they're able to get, you know, $240 for a pair of shorts or whatever.

I mean, it really is.

I'm trying to remember how you worded it in one of your posts.

I think it was maybe even on LinkedIn, saying that satisfy does a really good job of not being for everybody.

So some brands, especially a new brand, a brand that's that new, and, you know, let's give Breece Partouche his credit as a brand master.

They're such a new brand, very young, few years old, and to already.

I mean, to come out of the gates knowing.

To build.

They're willing to limit their sales.

They're willing to say, if you're not in, you know, we're not making this for everybody.

I remember how you word it, but that's one of the things I think that's special for such a young brand to have nailed so well.

Yeah.

I think the challenge is as you get bigger and you have growth pressures to grow into other markets and expand, particularly if you.

If you end up, you know, publicly traded at some point and you're responsible to shareholders, that is a really difficult challenge.

And you fall into the.

You fall into the trap of being everything to everybody.

Yes.

Because of those pressures to grow.

And they're.

They're not there yet, which is why they're just, like, rolling right now.

Right.

But they hit that ceiling.

He clearly took a massive investment.

And, you know, there's lots of changes happening there that are coming with growth.

So, you know, at some point when they fully.

I don't know if you.

He would still call them as early adopters, but if he.

Once he fully brings them all in house, you know, there is if.

Especially if he brought in private equity.

I don't know the type of money he brought in, but you're exactly right.

North Face felt it, and they're somehow one of the brands that's actually getting to fix it.

Most people I think of, like a Columbia or something like that, they just kind of go into bland nothingness.

And satisfy.

They're in that lane right now where they've got money, they're spending it on who they are.

Yeah.

You're you're exactly right.

I mean VF in general is having a lot of issues in north faces too.

But I think all the, I think all the components are there for them to work themselves through that and I fully expect them to do that.

But that's a natural, you know, like life cycle issue for a brand as you reach sort of a maturity point and you have to attack things differently.

Yeah.

And they're.

Yeah, it's natural evolution and learning process for everybody.

Right.

I hear at Tre they might be doing a, an event at Commodore and I hope that that's true.

So that's a restaurant owned by Philip Speer, who's a runner.

Awesome story.

I think Hoka did a documentary about him.

He does the Commodore Run Club.

But if nothing else, I'll just give a shout out, go eat there when you're in Austin.

It's.

I will the best check it out.

But I think Satisfye did a buyout one night and they're doing an event there.

That's what I heard.

I haven't, I don't have confirmation.

Okay.

Yeah, we'll have to check it out.

I.

The part of the fun part is like finding out about all this stuff going on.

Right.

Yeah, I just, I have a blast of Tre.

Yeah.

All right.

Do you have, who's.

Do you have any like thoughts on close?

Who's close?

What brands are close but not quite like it feels like, you know, they're firing on all of them but maybe at 85% or they're nailing, you know, most, but they're not one.

There's.

I think there's a lot in this category.

I think this probably makes up most of the brands.

Right.

Let me go through a few here that I, I jotted down.

Okay.

I think, I think HOKA is very close.

I think Hoka has a very strong like Hoka just crushes it from an event standpoint.

I mean they're everywhere.

Right.

They have all the races and it's branded out and everywhere and they do a really good job around that.

I think they're.

I don't know if I'm going to go through every single one.

I think what I want to.

Would love to see more of from Hoka is like a little bit more story.

Like for me, Hoka is a really a super strong product that a lot of people have really bought into and feel a lot of loyalty towards.

And the second you, you know, it has.

I worked run specialty for a while too.

If you, the second you slip your foot in that Hoka you like, you're sold.

Right.

And that goes so far in run specialty.

That just an initial impression.

But I want to.

I want to know more about what the brand means.

Like, when you think about satisfy, like you write, it's very distinct.

You can picture, like, satisfy.

And I have.

It's fuzzier for me with hoka.

So that I think is the knock.

I would say, well, let's go down there.

What do you think?

Yeah, what do you think?

I want to go down the road a little bit.

Like, when I think of hoka, I don't know.

I am not.

Again, I'm not on the cutting edge of anything.

I'm not an early adopter.

That's just not kind of where I'm at.

But I still tend to think of Hoka 2011 for some reason.

Sure.

Even though now I know they're.

They're athletes, obviously crushing it.

You know, I want to see Hayden Hawks take over the world.

He's.

I love that he came back.

He started there, left, came back.

Like, I love everything they have going.

Athletes.

Great.

Right, Check.

But I.

Yes, yeah.

Yep.

Of course.

But I don't.

I don't know.

I mean, to me, they still.

They were a gimmick at first to me, and so they still have.

They're still a gimmicky.

They.

They still.

They still live in a gimmicky place in my heart.

Okay.

Even though I did the deep dive with Taylor Bodine again On their products and 30s, the shoe count I think at like the last UTMB was like 33%.

And then most of those are the speed goat.

Yep.

So I know that I'm the one that's the problem in that.

But they.

I don't know why it's been hard.

I still see HOKA on a one also.

Yeah.

Right.

It's been so.

It just.

Again, I'm very.

Oh, nine to 20, let's say 13 on Hoka.

Sure.

That's my.

Sure.

But maybe it's because they're not telling the story.

Maybe the story is missing and they haven't, you know, owned a new play.

The original story of More cushion maximalist, while Chris McDougal was doing minimalism.

It was just such an interesting contrast.

Sure.

That's where it lived.

And I never.

I just didn't graduate well.

That's so.

So that's the product story.

Right.

That the brand story is.

Should be related, but sort of adjacent to that.

And if I have to describe HOKA without.

Without talking about the product, I struggle a little bit to do that.

Oh, that's exactly right.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Because.

Yes.

With Satisfy North Face and we didn't even get into like their new slogan or that, you know, this change that's happening there.

Like.

Yeah, you.

Oh, my God.

You can describe them without having to talk about their products.

Hopefully you can't without hoka.

You can't talk about HOKA without the speed goat or without having big maximalist cushion.

Right.

You start talking about the product.

Yeah.

And so you.

You mentioned.

I think that it's worth bringing up here.

You mentioned Red Bull and some of our back and forth before.

Yes.

So Red Bull has a product I.

Which I don't personally like at all, but they.

They have taken the feeling that they want, you know, that, that you get from that product.

This just adrenaline and intensity.

Right?

Yes.

And they've personified that.

And that's all the events.

That's all.

That's all their marketing.

Yeah.

I think going back to hoka, you know, they have the fly, human fly, and they have their.

I think that's intended to do that.

That's the way they want you to feel in the product.

Yeah.

So similar.

But that doesn't really come through for me.

And in all of their marketing, that story quite as much as I'd like to do, I guess, is where.

Yeah.

And the mention of Red Bull in the back and forth, I mean, just obviously worth calling out, like from an entire business model.

The reason they have so much margin to do all these amazing events is that they sort of like vertically integrated their business model.

Because you see the Red Bull car going around town because they do their own distribution.

I was in coffee.

We did our own distribution.

I was stealing from that model.

So we did our own grocery store facings, all this sort of stuff.

Yeah.

You always saw the Red Bull, like, that's just.

You work harder, but there's more money.

So Red Bull has built a demand for a product with incredible margin, and they spend that margin on brand.

I don't.

I mean, do they do product marketing?

And maybe you could even define the difference here, Product marketing versus brand marketing.

I don't know that.

Does Red Bull do product marketing or am I understanding this well enough?

It feels like everything they do is all about brand and them jumping off cliffs and wherever, God knows where.

And that's what Red Bull is to me.

And then I go buy a can.

Oh, I just lost you.

Let me mark that.

I think.

I think I bumped mute.

Oh, thank you.

Because they're.

Yeah, they're doing they're personifying everything that they want you to feel with the product.

It's really brand heavy.

There's.

There isn't.

I can't think of any that I've seen at least product marketing for, for Red Bull that specifically talks about the product.

Right.

They almost didn't want you to know it.

They almost don't even want you to know it's the product.

Yeah, yeah.

And.

But it's, it's, it's really a focus on the, the benefits and branded that they branded that really well.

Okay, so is there.

Could you.

What could you take from them and give to hoka just like shooting from the hip, like, what could HOKA learn from the way they do brand that would allow us to start talking about HOKA without having to talk about their shoes?

I would lean into that feeling afterwards.

I think it's a bit there, like I mentioned with this fly component, but I don't really feel that from their marketing, their storytelling, the event activations, there's a lot of blue.

I think they lean into a lot of advocacy stories, which is really, really cool.

Maybe that's a bit of this, you know, allowing people to fly more metaphorically.

Yeah.

But it doesn't really, like, it's a little bit of a stretch.

I think.

It doesn't really, it doesn't really connect.

Yeah.

I think one thing that should show anyone listening about how special it is, what you're talking about is you're talking about like HOKA phenomenal brand destroyed earnings projections.

And you're talking about like the top 1%.

Like, and that was correct.

This is, that's how hard this is.

So I'm trying to say, like how special.

It's a great perspective.

Yeah.

You know, you don't, you don't.

I don't.

You, of course, through evidence, you don't need to have be humming on all cylinders with all of these things.

Hocus wildly successful and a lot of brands are wildly successful despite probably missing on, you know, several of these criteria that I've subjectively outlined.

Well, what I'm hoping to say is that more so with that, is that how hard it is and that brands have put the right team in place and they've taken risks on, you know, you buy a blimp and put Goodyear on it.

You know what I mean?

Like how in the world.

And that becomes part of who you are.

So they, they get the money, they get someone in place, they convince their CFO to let them spend it on something stupid like a mountain bike course.

That Goes off the edge of whatever.

In Zion and then all of a.

Sudden it works, you know.

And so I think that's what I'm more so saying is like kudos to the ones who did it.

And these who are on that edge, I mean, they still have a 33% shoe count, so at UTMB, that's correct.

So they're doing good.

But yeah.

All right.

Who else you got on that list?

Oh, go ahead.

If you got something else to say.

Well, I think the other thing I was going to say is the bigger you get in, the more growth that you're experiencing.

The alignment to tell these stories across all these different areas, which become totally different department and teams within your.

Within your organization.

Once you get big.

Right.

That just.

It just becomes really a lot harder to do cohesively versus the small brand where it's a handful of people that are just really in the same room every day.

Right.

So to speak.

Oh, man.

All aligning on your story.

Right.

So as to your point of it being difficult to do it.

It is.

Especially as you get better at that scale.

Yeah.

On my next on my list, I have Terex.

Oh, Adidas.

Adidas.

Terex.

Adidas Outdoor.

Okay.

That I think is doing similar to North Face has had their product come around from where it had been from a trail shoot perspective and their.

Their athletes, their athlete team.

I think all that's coming together.

I want to see a little more story.

It's similar to hoka, I think from.

From them again, super hard, really big brand.

I think I thought when Corinne was let go from utmb, I wanted to see Terex really jump on that.

And I didn't see anything because that was.

I mean, as a friend of mine and just as someone supporting women in the sport, that really sucked.

And I thought that was a huge opportunity for Ter.

Really win a lot of hearts by stepping up there.

I didn't see that.

But I think they this year looking forward for them.

David Roche and what he's doing in the US Smashing Leadville and smashing that javelina and setting up potential showdowns next year at Western States, which has everybody.

Which has everybody just like you said, going, oh, man, I think that.

I hope he.

I mean, he's doing it in their shoes.

But there's no relationship between those two.

Oh, really?

That I'm aware.

That I'm aware of.

So I think that's a huge opportunity for them looking forward.

But I think that's another one that's really close.

But they're doing a lot right lately.

Yeah.

With Terex, I've never put on the shoes.

Okay.

When I go to the flagship Adidas shop here in Paris, they don't have anything Terex in there.

And I've done some digging.

I had Thomas Newburger from Believe in the Run on the podcast to talk about the Dossler brothers doing Puma and Adidas.

Such a fun story.

But with Terex, I wonder, you know, I don't, I don't fool.

They don't have a place in my mind.

They don't live anywhere other than I do.

I like Tom Evans a lot.

Yes.

And so that's a great.

And I think of, again, great clothes.

They're always great with clothes.

Like, their athletes are always looking, you know, great.

But I, you know, they don't seem to borrow from the Adidas brand story, like the, you know, the mothership.

And so do you.

What do you know?

Like, are they out trying to carve their own way?

Are they, like, you know, who are they?

So, I mean, it's a really good question.

They have an office here in Boulder, and I was there yesterday.

Oh, cool.

I saw some of your photos on Instagram.

Yeah.

Just coincidentally.

And they have.

They have David's shoes there.

So they, so they talk.

But, yeah, I think that.

What do you think about.

I'll ask you this.

What do you think about the Terex name versus, like, why isn't it just Adidas, particularly for running, as opposed to, say, climbing or, you know, snow sports?

That may maybe could keep the Terex name, but trail running is broke out from Adidas running.

Right.

Yeah.

And now they have this Terex name.

And what do you think that poses problems for them?

Well, on.

Yes, it does.

On my level, I love to name.

I love to give everything a name all the time because I romanticize giving it its own brand life.

Yeah.

So I have Borderlands trail running, but then I have open range races, because I want open range races to be its own thing.

And then I want Wilder App to be its own thing.

I used to call the podcast DFL before dnf because I wanted to give it its own life before realizing I need to call it.

I need to settle down on some of that stuff.

But, you know, I'm just.

I'm just one guy having a good time out here with Adidas doing that.

I just wonder maybe to look at it generously, were they thinking they were going to give it its own life?

Like, really give it its own life and let it be its own thing and that they were gonna give it different brand values, you know, were they gonna spin it off otherwise?

I don't understand it.

It's not clear to me.

And so because of that then I don't.

Inherently I don't like it because I don't understand it.

I agree.

It doesn't, it doesn't have as much meaning and it needs therefore a lot more work to establish that meaning and carve out like you put it, that space in your, in your mind.

Yeah.

And that I wonder how much more that is established for them in Europe versus here because all like their team, their, their marketing, everything you see comes out of Germany.

Yeah.

For, for Terex and for what we see in the trail running world.

And you know, there's a sales team and there's some people here in the US But a lot of that messaging, a lot of that marketing comes, comes from there.

And so it's hard for me not living there, not seeing that maybe the nuance of the difference between there and here, but that definitely, there's definitely a gap in that meaning or that communication in North America here.

Okay.

I have a really good example of that maybe happening the other way.

And that is Satisfy is Americana in a lot of ways.

To me, you're right.

And Bree has a clear and obvious love for the American Southwest and the myth of the cowboy and all that sort of stuff.

And I love, I mean, being also that I love that stuff as well.

I feel proud to see someone from France understanding what that is like in a, in a pure sense.

I love that.

But here in Europe, I don't see anybody in Satisfy that are running.

I see they're wearing it in a street application, like, you know, a lifestyle application.

So point being, when like headquarters is defining brand on a global scale.

Yeah.

It's going to nail some places and it's going to miss in others.

And it feels like satisfies nailing America.

I feel like it's missing, but I don't think they're trying really to get it over here yet.

Yeah.

And then, so then I wonder if it goes the other way with Adidas that like maybe they're with Terex, maybe they're nailing it here in Europe and it's missing in America.

That's just a guess.

I don't know.

Thinking out loud.

Yeah, it's a bit hard for me to yet to speak for what someone who, you know, a trail runner in Germany would say to define Terex.

Well, I got a guy, my friend Nico Luma.

If you're listening, you let us know.

He's he's in Hamburg.

I've had him on the podcast before, and he's an old.

Old runner, trail runner.

He could let us know.

Perfect.

Yeah, chime in.

Chime in.

Nico, tell us how much we're missing the boat here in the States.

Okay.

Do you have others on that list?

The close.

So I've got.

I've got.

I've got a few.

I've got three more on this list.

The third one being one that's just really intriguing for me.

Okay, so next is New Balance.

I think New Balance does so many things right.

On a broader scale.

Yeah.

They're now a sponsor of the WNBA in basketball.

Interesting.

Which I think is huge and really, really smart and lucrative for them going forward.

Some blue ocean there.

Blue sky.

I think they're.

I think they're mar.

And I'm speaking very broadly, you know, across sports right now.

I think their marketing is really distinct.

I think they grow their athlete team very deliberately and they market them very well.

I think they do a lot of that in, you know, track and road as well with their athletes and with their products.

It's not in trail as much yet, but I think they seem to be pushing more there.

They're building out an athlete team in Europe.

From what I can tell, they just sponsor the Mont Blanc Marathon.

So I think there's.

So I'm.

Yes.

So I'm kind of watching New Balance.

I think they're doing a lot of things right and they.

The way they operate is very slowly and very deliberately.

And they're not very.

Just kind of.

They don't really do things on a whim.

Yes.

And so if I start to see that momentum into trail, sort of like there was momentum into basketball years ago.

They Very slowly, deliberately.

And done a great job of building that out.

And so I'm.

I.

That's why I say there.

I think they're sort of close in that world.

I love it.

I think of them as like a young heritage brand.

So.

And they have that heritage that's huge because that's your whole cultural sort of, you know, storied angle.

Yeah.

And what's funny is that to the thing I just learned from you a minute ago, I.

When I think of New Balance, Shoes is like sixth on the list.

You know, I think of certain ad campaigns I've seen.

I've also.

I also would think of certain pictures of shoes, but I'm not necessarily thinking of a performance aspect.

I'm just thinking of incredible art and the people that wear them.

And, man, just.

I Don't.

I'm not good with like specific product numbers and all that, but some of the shoes that they've released over the years, they were just these shoes to get, you know, to just, you know.

I think they rivaled Air Max in a lot of ways by that.

That customer who would wear Air Maxes around town.

Yep.

So I just, I love their aesthetic.

I love everything about it.

So I would say probably the weaknesses is for me who pays attention.

I don't have any idea what one single shoe of their trail shoe looks like.

Yeah, that's right.

I think there's work to be done there.

I totally agree.

Yeah, I'm sort of scob.

I'll be.

I want to check that out next week at Tre.

But yeah, I'm.

I knew there.

I knew their shoes, their trail shoes years ago, you know the.

All the, all the.

Well, of course the Minimus line.

Right.

That they had with.

With Tony or with Anton and.

But then they also had like when they sponsored, when they sponsored leadville, they had a 12mt 1210 or something.

I might be getting that wrong.

It's been, it's been a while.

But they had like a Leadville branded shoe at one point.

Yeah.

And they did some of that years ago with Anton.

Was that the shoe like in the.

Some of the old documentaries I saw of him, like that he would shave the heel of a shoe and then they ended up making for him what he was trying to recreate.

Yeah, that's right.

He worked on a lot of product design with them on, you know, really the whole Minimus line, the MT Tens and all these.

These really cool old shoes that were.

That was kind of when I was getting into the sport.

I was all geeked out on all that.

It was really fun.

Oh, man.

Yeah, that's a good call.

I mean, even just by the fact that I'm smiling thinking about New Balance says everything about a solid brand.

Like they've nailed that.

I mean the Made in USA piece is, you know, makes me proud to say, you know, you don't have to make it there.

That's fine if you don't.

But they've.

That has been a value of theirs and they've done it and you know, it's reflected.

It was reflected in the price point, but now all the price points have caught up with.

With their price points on some of their stuff.

But man.

Yeah, that's a good call that it just feels.

They do a lot.

Right, right.

They do a lot.

Yeah, they do a lot.

Really well.

So if there's a little bit momentum moving into trail.

I'm excited to see that.

Yeah, very cool.

The other one I had was On.

I think they're.

I think they do a lot.

Right?

Of course.

Right.

Their.

Their numbers are absolutely killing it.

From a trail point of view though, I want to see a little bit.

I want to see more product.

Yeah, not really.

Yeah, I think that's just kind of missing.

But they do.

They do so much well.

They're really distinct brand.

Right.

You can really see on's marketing when you kind of close your eyes and it's removed from the product.

Yeah.

Their, their athlete team is great.

Shout out to David Kilgore who does an outstanding job managing their athletes.

I think he's kind of a superstar over there.

That is in the sport, right?

It is in it has presence is at the events.

He's.

I think he's running seven marathons, seven days, seven continents right now.

Which is really like.

He's just in it.

So that interesting goes a long way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So on also just kill, I think.

Okay.

I love Cirque series.

The race is really cool.

Right?

Cool.

And on was their sponsor for seven years.

They just switched to La Sportiva.

Um, but I thought on sponsored Cirque before.

I mean I feel like that was like a.

A paving the way sort of move for them rather than like, hey, we're already established.

They were trying.

I thought that was just really interesting move to see them on because I didn't associate them with trail rug.

Especially those really difficult, you know, six to nine mile races.

I was really surprised by that.

So I thought it was really cool to see them get in that.

Now, you know, they're gone.

They're off doing their own thing.

Do you have any idea the future of on and Trail?

I don't.

I don't really.

I don't really have any insight there.

I'll be meeting him with a mater.

So I hope those questions.

Yeah, I'm excited to learn about that because I think they.

I think they do have more ambitions there than we've seen so far.

So yeah, I'm excited to learn about it.

But yeah, at the moment I'd be.

I'd be just throwing.

I'd just be spitballing.

Yeah.

Is.

I can't think of her last name.

Ally.

She's like sub Ultra or maybe like 50k specialist McLaughlin.

Is that it?

Does she run for on at some point?

For hoka.

Unless time are different people, maybe.

I hate that.

I can't think.

I can.

I can See, she always has her dogs at the finish line.

Yeah, That's.

Yeah, that's all.

Yeah.

Was she never with on?

No, not that I.

Not that I knew of.

She's.

Yeah.

Okay, well, then.

Then I'm just off then.

That's a.

That's their fault.

That's bad branding.

Yeah.

That's okay.

That's okay.

The last one I want to bring up that is sort of intriguing for me.

I want to see what you think is deodorant.

I think deodorant is.

And I'm.

Maybe I'm partial here.

I played soccer.

Okay.

That's where I was growing up as a kid.

So I have this, like, super fond nostalgia for deodorant.

Yeah.

I think they're a really cool product.

They have, you know, a lot of heritage and a lot of story there.

It has the whole Italian thing going on, which is sort of like romantic, but also very product oriented.

Right.

When you think of, like, Italian car brands or Italian fashion brands that they can sort of align with, I know they're doing a lot of product work.

I know they've hired, at least in the States here, some.

Some new people to try to grow the brand.

I'm excited to see where.

Where deodorant goes.

I think there's a lot of potential there too.

It's a cool brand.

Yeah.

How old are you?

I'm 43.

Okay.

I'm 41.

My brother played soccer.

We lived in Dallas, Fort Worth area.

Great, great soccer out there.

D'Adora was, you know, Umbro D'Adora.

There's like these brands that you had to have on in the.

Oh, yeah, what, the late 80s, early 90s.

But when I think I saw deodorant, I saw Believe in the Run Post, something about their road shoes or whatever.

And, like, I didn't even care, you know, it's a pure.

To me, it's.

And this is maybe unfortunate for what they're trying to accomplish.

If they're trying to truly compete.

They're a nostalgia brand.

You know, they're like an urban outfitters nostalgia thing to me.

And I would get them just because I have only fond memories of them.

So they're.

They're coming.

If they're entering in and trying to make a serious play, they're at a very good starting line with.

Already having that.

I agree.

I mean, like you talked about with the Solomons, how you just.

You kind of wanted them anyway.

I think you have a little bit of that mindset right.

When you see deodorant.

On the shoe.

While they should.

They should play that up for sure, because that would be an advantage.

Yeah, so, yeah, that's.

That one was kind of my wild card.

I wanted to throw in at the end that you don't hear thrown around all the time.

Yeah, I like it.

Yeah, it makes me want to pay attention.

So are they going to be at the Tre?

Yes, they are.

Okay, so we'll be.

Yeah, I'll be digging a little bit there.

I want to do a.

I want to do an audio post at Tre.

Sort of like a, I don't know, reportage type.

Oh, yeah.

Story.

Yeah, a little bit like, you know, like the New York Times and some of these other podcasts do this where they're kind of like at an event and they're like talking into the mic, but then, like, then you also hear the live audio where they interview somebody and they kind of weave it all together like a.

Like a audio film.

Yeah, I'm.

I'm intrigued by that format.

So I might try to put something like that might not be perfect.

It'd be my first go around at it, but I might try to get something like that.

To me.

Yeah, I think it'd be a lot of interesting stuff and.

Okay, so speaking of the nostalgia of Deodora, as we get closer to landing the plane here, I want to get your take on this because I think my answer to this question, which I put in the text, brings back some fondness.

But what was there a brand that you thought was just doing great and was going to make it and keep going, and they've been gone for a while and we'd be surprised to hear their name even right now.

Oh, by far tops on that list is Montreal.

Oh, okay.

Montreal was like total original trail running.

Like.

Yeah, like, you know, when.

When Jerk was smashing at Western states, he was, you know, he was like a Brooks guy.

Right.

But Montreal had like, the team and then they were bought by Columbia and.

That'S what I was gonna say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, Columbia's sitting on that and have done virtually nothing with that and that.

I mean, what a cool, like, totally original, like, awesome trail running brand that.

Yeah.

Is just not around.

I'm sure they still own the, you know, the IP for that brand, and I'd love to see that.

That'd be cool.

I think.

You know what they say, like, at least when I was a kid, I had heard that a car is considered vintage when it's 25 years old or older or something like that.

You know, they're getting to that point where to bring back a Montreal shoe would be like.

Like bringing back an old Corvette or something like that.

Just for fun, like nostalgia.

It be so cool.

Right?

Yeah.

I mean I know Columbia makes some trail ring shoes.

I think I couldn't name any of them.

I don't know if any of them are.

Yeah.

If anyone really wears them.

But man, if they brought Montreal like it's like a premium brand and just really made them like all the like really high end trail shoes.

I mean Columbia's a pretty.

Got Scott Jericho on board and Hal.

Kerner that you just, you could really.

You could really I think differentiate them from Columbia and make them their own thing that yeah.

You could just get a lot of traction in.

In their sport.

Running with.

That'd be really cool to see.

That'd be fun.

Mine is Pearl Izumi.

Yeah, totally.

Just because I mean I think of like I can even see the picture in my mind.

I can't remember who all is in it other than Dylan Bowman.

But there's other notables in that, you know, from that team.

Other a lot of people and they were sort of a.

They were like sort of a starter team.

So my friend Scott Jaime was the like the manager for the athlete team for a while and he was signing, he was signed Dylan, he signed Tim Olsen, he signed Casey Lick Tie.

He.

He signed a bunch of people that then, you know would go on to bigger contracts with bigger brands.

That was.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Is the feeder team the right word?

They were just that.

That team that was really identifying people early from.

From an athlete point of view and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the product was amazing at the time.

I think ones and twos and threes, all those do.

You know.

So Death March running Cody at death.

Yeah.

Cody Riley.

He was at.

I think he was at Pearl of Zooming.

He was at Pearl Zooming.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Random.

Okay.

Yep.

He was definitely a Pearl.

So.

Yeah.

Because they're, they're their offices right down the street.

I live in Louisville right outside of Boulder and that's where Pearl's office was.

They have a super nice building here right on the hill, right on trail.

It's a really good spot.

So.

But yeah, of course they're really into cycling as well.

Right.

And I think that they made really premium products but had a bit of a branding connotation in cycling too.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'd say the way that you, that you talk about brands is from like a true enjoyment of it.

You know, that's fun and so when you are then starting your own.

Yeah.

Do you feel like without your sportif, can you see it with as much clarity as you could, let's say if Ultra was hiring you to consult, you know what I mean?

Like, when it's your own brand, can you build it?

Is it harder to build it?

What do you, what are you experiencing right now?

It is, it is only harder to build it because it's.

I'm building it from nothing.

Yeah.

And so you're defining the brand and yeah, it's our tourist sportif where it's defining the brand from.

From nothing and doing it with no resources.

Right.

When you're, when you're starting out.

So that, that's the challenge.

But I'm, but I'm starting to feel that as I do more things there's.

It like snowballs a little bit and it starts to become easier for me the more I, you know, with every product that I'm putting out or every film that I'm making, it's defining it more clearly in my head as I'm going.

And it's.

Yeah, there's a bit of a snowball effect there, but I view it as sort of a lab for me to play and try things based on what I'm learning, what I'm talking about, what I'm seeing going well or not well, and then just kind of adapting what, what I'm interested in to.

Yeah.

Creating this, this Persona of a brand for myself.

And that's a lot of fun.

Yeah.

I think since we have somewhat of a overlap on the, you know, product is not in our, I don't know, for me, not in my core competent competency.

Do you find it hard to even think about the actual product itself sometimes?

And you're so consumed with the storytelling and all of that sort of stuff.

Are you feeling like pretty balanced in your approach?

So.

No, like I actually really enjoy the product but I'm coming at it from like a lifestyle product point of view.

I'm not trying to make a performance product.

I think that's hard and expensive and takes a lot of time if you're just starting a brand.

I think so.

I think lifestyle is a lot sort of easier in that from that angle, but it also is just far more interesting to me.

So I want to try to make a premium nice product.

Like the shirt I have on, like this 385 gram cotton, like it's really like nice and yeah, it will hopefully last a while.

It's not just like the cheapest cotton shirt and therefore it's not the cheapest to buy as well, but so, no, I'm, I'm really enjoying product and that's been somewhere for me.

I always love learning about things, so I've learned so much about making product and working with factories overseas and tech packs, which I'm terrible at.

But like, just, just learning all of this is really, really, really a fun time for me.

And so, yeah, no, I really enjoy the product.

After you get out more documentaries and do more of the stuff that's in your head, what do you hope that people are going to say about what you're building at Auteur Sportif?

You know, in the same way that we've been doing with all these other brands.

What do you hope they're saying?

Two other guys sitting here.

Yep.

Talking about it.

What do you hope they think?

What lives in their mind?

So, so this is where, this is where I started from.

I mean, I didn't know anything, but I knew this.

When you're at a, at a race or when you're out on a trail there, there's a magic component to this sport that has absolutely nothing to do with performance.

And you leave a hundred mile race and say you ran the race and you're destroyed.

Right.

But like mentally you feel so energized by the community, by the stories, by the support from people that you take that intangible sort of spirit of it away.

And I want it to, I want the brand to stand for that.

I want the brand to mean that just in that intangible magic of running, which is a phrase I write about a lot with the brand.

Just like the magic of running.

Yes.

And I wanted to really stand for that.

It's not performance oriented at all.

Anyone can run and anyone can experience this, whether you're at the front of the pack or the back of the pack.

I think it connects everybody within the sport.

And yeah, I think it's hard for a lot of performance brands to tell that story.

I think a lifestyle brand can tell that story a bit, a bit better without having to talk about our, you know, our shoe being the fastest or whatever.

Right.

So yeah, that, that's, that's the story of the brand that trying to communicate through films and then personify through product.

I think, you know, I've listened to a lot of interviews and read a lot of articles with, with Brice Parts from Satisfy and he talks about the product being the merch from the concert and that, that is so powerful for me.

So I want, yeah, I really want the product to be the, to be the merch from that concert to represent that story and that experience.

Yeah, man, that's great.

Well, I look forward to seeing what comes of it.

I look forward to listening to the podcast or however you choose to release your tre experience next week.

Yeah, hopefully that'll be on my substack.

I've got to see how quickly I can get it out.

The other thing to watch out for though is through our tour sportif.

I have another film coming out, it looks like next Friday.

Oh, wow.

That's the first I've told anybody that publicly.

I was hoping to get it out this Friday, which would be tomorrow and I'm not going to make it.

So I think, I think it'll be next Friday.

But I'm telling the story of Gina Lucrezi in Buena Vista, Colorado, who first started, started Trail Sisters.

She ran for.

She was so inspired by the impact that she was able to have at, you know, Trail Sisters advocating for women in the sport that she got involved in local government in Buena Vista and just ran for county commissioner of Chaffee County.

And so I, yeah, so I followed her and made a short film about that story.

And it's, it's really, really cool to see someone in our sport, you know, kind of just extending the inspiration that they, you know, caught in, in running to, to the wider world is really, really awesome.

I have a lot of fond memories in Buena Vista, Colorado.

It's a phenomenal area.

It's a great place.

That's a great place.

The whole valley slido, all of it is really great place.

Yeah.

Well, man, thanks for joining me today.

I'll make sure and link everything up in the show notes and.

Yeah, let's do it again.

Appreciate it.

We'll talk soon.

Thanks.

Borderland Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.