Saint Paul writes in Galatians 3:27 29 in the Christian Standard Bible that for those of you who are baptized into Christ, have been clothed with Christ, there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, since you are all one in Christ Jesus, and if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed heirs according to the promise.

In this pericope, Paul is writing to the Church of Galatia.

Directly before this passage, Paul writes about how the law reveals the need of Christ.

And directly after this, he writes about our choice to either be a slave to sin, a slave to the law.

Or a child of promise.

Russ Petrus how might this idea of oneness in Christ tie into the themes of slavery, hope and promise in the surrounding scriptures?

Thanks TJ for this passage and this question.

I think St. Paul has a lot to tell us that's valuable and I think makes some demands on us as people of faith, given the current situation we find ourselves in as a country.

I think to be one in Christ, to be clothed in Christ, is to shut ourselves, to disavow ourselves of any ideas that our differences, whether they're around race and ethnicity, gender or gender identity, sexuality, culture, religious tradition, anything that could divide us or define us, is not normative.

It doesn't decide who's saved or not, who's welcomed or who is left out, or whose experiences and stories are dismissed.

I think to be one in Christ is not to erase those differences, but to embrace them, to understand that God's desire is that these differences would enrich our shared life on this earth.

And I think sadly, too often throughout history and today, those with political, social, economic, and definitely religious power have used those differences only to enrich themselves, to strengthen their hold on power and to tighten their control over us.

And I actually think that's where hope and promise comes in.

Because changing our structures and our systems to more fully reflect God's desire for the flourishing of all creation is a long game, and we're unlikely to see it actualized in our lifetimes.

But oneness is also our call to live out in a body here and now so we can be a revelation, a foretaste of God's promise and dream for all of us in our families, in our homes, in our neighborhoods, in our faith communities, and even in our just daily interactions with people as we go about our lives, strengthening our resolve and sustaining us in our pursuit of what we know is already in God's eyes but not yet in our world.

Yeah, may it be so.

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole church podcast, possibly your favorite church unity podcast, but it's fine if it's not, you know, the whole unity thing.

We're not really in competition because that would be self defeating, I think.

So feel free to love other unity podcasts more than ours or the same as ours.

It's cool.

I am excited for today's episode.

We're gonna be talking about Future Church.

We have a few guests we're going to introduce with this.

We've had on before Russ Petrus to talk about Catholic women Preach.

We've had Olivia Hast on before.

It's hasty, right.

Olivia Hastie on before to talk about some different things with the Pope.

And we have a new guest today, Martha Ligas, that we're excited to get to know as we do this.

And of course, here with me is the host with the most the reason for podcast itself, The Pot Almighty DJ Tuber Years 1.

Blackwell, how's it going?

Good, good.

So, yeah, like we said, Martha Ligas new to the show, Future church leader and pastoral minister who works to build inclusive and affirming Catholic communities both locally and beyond institutional structures.

We've got returning Olivia Hastie, who I actually didn't get me.

I think when we should have met, it was either my power went out.

I think that's what happened.

Yeah, that sounds familiar.

I don't know, our power grid's weird over here because too many people are moving here.

But she's a PhD student in Theological ethics whose work explores embodiment and affirmation and who is committed to nurturing life giving expressions of Catholic faith.

And of course, once again, Russ Petrus, the executive director of Future Church, known for his pastoral leadership, liturgical creativity and commitment to justice in the church.

So now that you're caught up, if you didn't know us, now you know.

Mm.

Go to our website to purchase one of our T shirts to promote the show, help us raise money for podcast needs, and let others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church.

My personal favorite is called the TJ quote on the back because there's nothing on it except the logo.

Very clean, very simple, very easy to wear.

Yeah, yeah.

Check out the website.

The link is below for other shows.

Like ours or not like ours.

Shows that we like to like.

Yeah, yeah, I do like to like other shows sometimes.

A lot of the times actually support our community.

Another thing I like to do, the perfect form of unity comes in.

It's a holy sacrament to me, of silliness where we always like to start Our show off with silly question.

Just, you know, kind of ease the tension.

Let us all loosen up before we talk about how hard it is to be united.

But today, question I don't remember writing I never do.

The greatest thing about being ADHD is like, you surprise yourself all the time.

What's something that a normal dog does that would be especially funny to see Clifford the Big Red Dog do?

I'll go first.

I'm gonna go super basic.

That giant dog trying to pee on a tiny fire hydrant I just think would be funny.

Pretty sure we never get that in the show, but I want to see it.

I'd get a laugh out of that.

That's the problem with this question.

I feel like they cover much of, like, that's half the bit is him doing regular dog stuff and it being really funny.

But I want to see Clifford tear up like a normal sized throw pillow.

Just tiny pillow for.

That's way funnier.

Tear to shreds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right, Dr. Martha.

Do you.

Do you prefer Martha?

Dr. Ligas?

Does it matter?

Martha's great.

That works fine.

Same question.

Thanks, Josh.

I was thinking about this.

My partner and I have a little dog.

She's a small beagle, and the dog next door is about twice her size, and he's a giant flirt.

So he'll go up to the fence and act all cool in his dog way and try to get Sadie's attention, and she wants nothing of it.

So I was thinking, what if that neighbor dog was Clifford, this giant dog trying to flirt with our little dog?

It would be even funnier.

A flirting dog.

I like it.

I love it.

Yeah, that works.

Oh, yeah.

All right, Olivia, what's something be funny to watch Clifford the Big Red Dog train you?

I just have to say that I love Clifford the Big Red Dog.

It's like my favorite children's thing.

I love it.

Books, tv.

Love it.

I wanted to be Emily Elizabeth when I was younger, but I gave this thought, and my cousin's dog loves to, like, stick his snout on the dinner table.

And it's really annoying, but also really cute.

And I just was thinking about, like, how if Clifford the Big Red Dog did that, it would just kind of, like, clear the table.

It would be the whole table.

And that gave me a giggle.

So that was.

That was great.

Yeah.

All right, Russ, take us home.

Yeah.

I'm relatively certain that this isn't typical dog behavior, but we have a little prince.

Doc.

He's the miniature poodle.

And on cold days, like it is.

Today, think he just can't retain much body warmth.

We take him for a walk.

Gives a very clear signal that he needs you to carry him home the rest of the way.

And so with the big red dogs standing up and saying, lift me, carry me, take me home.

Be quite hysterical to see.

Be great.

Yeah.

I don't know if I'm built for that bonus one.

Pretty sure I'm not.

This is not normal dog behavior, so I couldn't have said it, but I'm gonna say it here anyway, because I just think it's funny.

I used to have a little Yorkie, Silky, who played fetch with himself by running up the stairs, dropping the toy, then running and grabbing it and bringing it back up.

Clifford, trying to do something like that would also be pretty funny because he's just so big.

Pretty much anything he does is gonna be entertaining.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's the perfect character.

Yeah.

They really nailed it.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

They really nailed it.

He is a dog.

That's all I need out of a character.

Yeah.

So as far as church unity goes, Russ, you've been on the show a few times now, and before going on to today's topic, could you help introduce our audience to your friends today?

Yeah, sure.

So at the top of the episode, you kind of gave some of the more salient biographical information about Martha and Olivia.

I would just like to say that they are two incredibly smart, talented, energetic, creative young women who approach things with the same sense of justice and love for faith and for people, but in different ways.

Livia is more of a theologian, and that's not to say that Martha isn't a theologian, but she's more of a pastor.

And I think as a team, we.

We work really well together.

I know.

I'm very excited to be able to work with them every day.

And I especially just feel blessed to be able to actually call them friends, too.

They're not just co workers, but they're friends.

And this is hard work that we do, and it's really good to be in it with friends.

So that's Martha and Olivia.

They're brilliant, and I think you're going to love them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

I got along with Olivia really well last episode, so I'm sure I'm getting along with Martha really well, too.

So I'm excited.

I'm excited to.

No pressure.

Just keep having conversations.

Olivia.

Southern War.

Pretty high, but it's fine.

I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

So let's briefly cover what's going on with the Catholic Church concerning recent decisions about women.

Deacons and anything else that you might think us Protestant listeners are hosts or anyone from any other traditions might find interesting.

What's going on?

What do we need to know about the Catholics?

Anyone?

Current events, but the Catholic version.

Yeah, current events.

The Catholic version.

I think some of the biggest news that is coming out of the Catholic Church right now is, of course, we had that report from the Vatican about that study commission on women deacons where they essentially said, we can't make a definitive judgment right now.

But for right now, we're saying no, not as a sacrament, not as a holy order.

But the question remains open.

We're still trying to figure out where Pope Leo is going.

You know, he's moving in some great directions.

He just announced that he's going to do a series of teachings on the Second Vatican Council, which is really exciting for us because the Second Vatican Council was a major reform and change in the shift or in the church that was supposed to bring it into the modern era, which is a lot of what we try to do.

So that's exciting for us and we're heartened to see, particularly the US Bishops kind of come to the side of.

To rally behind and to be in solidarity with our migrant sisters and brothers here in this country.

So.

So that's been good to see.

So I think those are three significant headlines.

Martha, Olivia, what else are you guys seeing?

I'll add that from the pastoral perspective, when this news dropped about kind of closing this door on women's access to the diaconate, it was challenging for those of us in the church reform movement.

I know there are, you know, Catholics and Christians kind of all across the board on women's access to leadership.

But for those of us involved with Future Church and other comparable organizations, it's been a challenge to receive this information and say, okay, how do we move forward knowing that this barrier still stands against full access to leadership?

So amidst all of the political upheaval in the country, I'm so passionate about the church reformer also holding this and saying, this is something we're mourning to and figuring out how to.

How to keep pushing forward despite the barrier.

Yeah, yeah.

I do want to share on our Facebook group and a couple other places, we shared actually a response from Future Church concerning that finding.

Definitely recommend reading that.

I'll try to remember the show's description, too, because I thought that was really well written.

Olivia, did you want to add anything before we moved on?

I think just something brief is that I think they hit the current events perfectly.

But I think as Disappointing news continues to happen in the church and in the world, but in the church it's predictable for us at this point in the reform movement.

And so I think a big question for us is how do we keep hope alive?

How do we be hopeful, but how do we also keep it real?

And then I think for us at future church, it's like, how does our mission align with those two truths of hope in the church and hope is.

Not in the church?

And both of those things.

I think there's a lot more to say there, but I'll leave it there for now.

Yeah, chair too.

Just from an outsider's perspective, I think it was challenging for non Catholics, a large part of the bunch who are paying attention because we are living in a time where so many, the downtrodden, the marginalized, everybody's just being treated so poorly, especially here in America.

As an American citizen, I'm just really disappointed in what's happening in the country.

And I know a lot of people like me found a lot of hope in what was happening with the Catholic Church, with Pope Francis.

And then we had some hope for Pope Leo and then kind of seeing bad news.

It's like we just kind of wanted good news to come from somewhere and just seems like more bad just keeps piling on from everywhere, which.

Yeah, you know, it's definitely that.

No, you know, that sort of non definitive no from the commission is definitely bad news for not just women who feel a call to the diaconate or who have a call to the diaconate, but it's bad news for women all over the world.

It's, you know, in effect, it's the Catholic Church or at least this commission anyhow, saying, yeah, women can't quite fully image Christ.

And that says something.

And I think people who are open and God knows we've seen it in our country, there are people who are open to those kinds of othering messages that will take them to those extremes.

So I think particularly of vulnerable women in different parts of the country are gonna suffer a lot from this.

I will say this for Pope Leo.

We don't know where he stands on the question of women deacons.

And part of me does wonder whether him asking or having this commission final report released signals an end of that process so.

So that he can begin some kind of new process.

I have nothing to base that on except hope.

And I certainly think Pope Leo is not gonna be strapped by the same.

Well, I'm gonna say a misogyny that we saw out of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul ii.

And I don't think he's gonna be strapped by the same sort of machismo that we saw from Pope Francis.

As wonderful as Pope Francis was, he had his blind sights when it came.

Or blind spots when it came to women.

Yeah, yeah.

Last thing I'll add on this note, and if you guys haven't say anything else, that's fine, too.

I'm trying to word this.

Well, in church, it's easy for us to be like, oh, that's the Catholics, or, oh, those are the Baptists.

But I think outside of the church, you have some whole church podcast, church unity, all that stuff too.

I think it's important that we're invested in what one another's doing, because when people outside the church, look, they just say, those are Christians.

Christians don't care about women in leadership.

Christians don't care about the LGBTQ community.

Christians support Donald Trump.

And a lot of this is like just people lumping together.

And we can be mad at them for that.

Like, oh, no, we're not all the same.

You shouldn't lump us together.

Sure.

But I also think we should need to take some responsibility on one another and what's happening in our different churches and be invested.

You know, as a non Catholic, I can't be a part of the process, but I think it's still important that we stay invested, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Just one thing to add on this, if I can.

At bc, I have a couple colleagues who are not Catholic.

One is Presbyterian, some are Lutheran.

And when this news broke about the kind of, you know, unspoken spoken no.

From Pope Leo about women deacons, a number of them came to the Catholic women in our program and we're just like, I'm sorry, like, this really is awful.

And like.

And then like, tongue in cheek, we're like, you could come to our side and are obviously making jokes about that.

But I just think to your.

To your point, Joshua, like, I think that is really, really important to know what's going on in other denominations, what's going on in other churches, and how, how we can all support each other, because to some degree, we are all hopefully moving towards the same goal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah, ideally.

And I think, I think one of the places, Russ, you mentioned this briefly, where I, I've seen both the division and the unity in Christians, regardless of denomination, is around this issue of immigration in the United States.

You've got.

Yeah.

You know, you've got division being sown.

Yes.

And at the same time, you know, if you look to see who's present at protests and who's making statements and who's showing up to, you know, various meetings and such.

It's Christians all across the board.

I mean, it's not divided by denomination there.

And so when we speak of church unity, I have found hope in spaces that will say things like, clergy show up regardless of what denomination you're part of.

And that feels hopeful to me.

Yeah, yeah, I affirm, agree, echo all of that.

That has been the one light in all this for me, I think, is just seeing some of that.

And hopefully we're all moving closer to the right goals.

Moving forward.

In our conversation, though, you know, we had you on to talk about future church because somehow we talked about Catholic women preach before future church, and we've done all of our interviews in the wrong order.

But that's fine.

I'm adhd.

That's my excuse for everything, and it stands here, too.

Well, since we haven't heard a ton from Martha yet, I'll let you start with this.

But how would you describe future church in just simplest terms?

If you just one or two sentences.

What is future church?

In the simplest form, future church is an organization that works to amplify the voices on the margins of the church and make it a more inclusive space for all who are interested in being part of it.

I think that's kind of the baseline.

And from there, we branch into theological education and activism and supporting small communities of church wherever they are.

But at our foundation, we're working to make space for all people, in particular laity, who have not been ordained to have a voice from the pews and also all the way up in the hierarchy of the church and where decisions are being made.

Yeah.

Russ, Olivia, anything to add as far as what future church is?

No.

Then I have.

I do have something I wanted to read off and get you guys to tell us some about.

So the Future Church website people should go check out, especially if I remember to put it in.

The show's description gives a list of visions that this organization works for.

And I think this, for me, this is what really enlightened me of.

Oh, this is what it's about.

You're kind of seeing this list here.

So I was just hoping you guys can maybe unpack some, tell us a little bit what these mean.

So I got four things here that we're reading off from the website.

Just open and collaborative structures for Catholic worship, organization and governance.

A return to the church's early tradition of both married and celibate priests.

A return to the Church's earliest tradition, modeled on the inclusive practice of Jesus, of recognizing both female and male leaders of faith communities.

Lastly, regular access to the Eucharist, the center of Catholic life and worship for all Catholics.

You guys just unpack some of that for us.

What do these mean to you?

How are they important, et cetera?

Just whatever you want to say, really.

Russ, do you want to start us off with that?

Sure, yeah.

I'm happy to.

Go ahead.

First, I think I'll address that question about the Eucharist first, even though it's the last thing you listed.

But we as Catholics believe and proclaim that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our lives of faith.

And unfortunately, I think all too often in our theologizing, in our practice, in our discourse, we have a tendency to turn the Eucharist into that little wafer and maybe that cup of wine that an ordained priest somehow has the magic power to turn into the body and blood of Christ.

And it's so much more than that.

Like I say, we profess that it's the source and summit of our faith, and it's sort of this.

It's kind of the alpha and the omega.

It's sort of the.

The driving force that keeps the cycle of discipleship alive.

So it's so much bigger than what we've turned it into.

And I think, particularly when we use it as a system of reward and punishment, when we say who can and cannot receive Eucharist, who has the ability, these celibate men have the ability to do Eucharist.

But I think that's really the birthright of all.

It's a gift that Christ gave to all of us at the Last Supper.

And despite artistic renderings of the Last Supper, there was a whole crew of women at the Last Supper, too.

So I think it's the birthright of all of us.

So Future Church really works to make sure that we broaden our vision of who is welcome at the table and who presides at the table and what it means to be at the table.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

Olivia, I haven't heard from you in a minute.

Do you want to address any of these, Unpack some of this?

Sure.

I think I can just give a little bit of an overview of the four of these.

Just kind of what I've been thinking about.

I want to call out, too, that, you know, these are like the founding tenets of Future Church.

When Future church was founded 35 years ago, we're celebrating our 35th anniversary, and so much about The Church has changed.

Right.

So when we say, like, married and celibate priests, we.

We really just mean, like, a really capacious understanding of priesthood.

Like, like, we want to be asking, what is priesthood?

What does it mean to be a priest?

And.

And things like that.

And then I also would say too, like, in terms of the first one, just open and collaborative structures for Catholic worship organization and governance.

Founding pillars, I think, mean so much more and mean so many different things than they did 35 years ago.

Right.

Like, they're prompting us to ask questions.

They're the starting line.

They're not, like, necessarily the meat of what we do.

And I think that's really exciting for us.

It's a.

It's a really great starting line, and it's a really great history of what this organization has done, and I think it's a really great place for us to keep asking the question, like, where.

Do we govern next?

Yeah, I like that.

Like that.

And.

And if I could jump in here, I think when we ask that question of where we go from here, what's super interesting and paradoxical is we.

To look where we go, part of us is looking back and saying, what has the tradition of the Church been since.

Since its inception?

And how can pieces of tradition that have been put to the wayside or weren't amplified be brought to, you know, the central narrative of church once again?

And that kind of speaks to letter C or that third one down, as you mentioned, are different pillars.

A return to the church's earliest tradition of the inclusive practice of Jesus.

If we look way, way, way back.

To when the church started, there were male and female presiders at home, liturgies.

There was a more inclusive way of governing this early church community.

And throughout our history of being church, that tradition has shifted and changed and gotten more patriarchal and hierarchical and misogynistic through the years.

And so what does it look like.

To.

Return to traditions that better suit us all and maybe let go of some of the ones that don't?

Yeah, it's especially interesting to tackle that kind of thing because, you know, the Catholic Church places a whole lot of importance on tradition.

Like, I'm Pentecostal.

We don't care what.

What is a tradition.

We eat every fourth Sunday.

That's a tradition to us.

But it is interesting to have those issues in a denomination where tradition is so important.

But, you know, that's not.

It's not our fault.

Not in the year 2025.

So that being as it is, the Catholic Church and its strong tradition has canonized a lot of church polity and church roles.

And how are changes like the ones you're trying for possible in a tradition?

With such a strong tradition, what's the way forward?

You got it.

You got it, Martha?

Yeah, I think.

I think part of this depends on which traditions you're prioritizing, as I was saying before, and.

And to.

To do this work with the utmost respect for what our traditions are as a church.

And so, you know, when we.

When we discern, it's time to move forward or it's time to let some of them go, it's not out of disrespect or lack of care, but rather recognizing whose voice wasn't, wasn't heard in the creation of this tradition, you know, who wasn't welcome in its inception.

And so it's this balancing act of respecting tradition, knowing its import, and at the same time saying, where has it not been inclusive enough?

But you're right, T.J. it's a challenge because, you know, there are such strong traditionalists in the church who take.

Take real qualm when, you know, you suggest anything that may, you know, may poke at this tradition.

So it's.

It's a balancing act, and it's.

Why not everybody likes the world of church reform.

Yeah.

Can I double down on the question a little bit?

This is just out of curiosity.

So let's start with.

I'm all on board on the changes you guys want to make.

I just don't know enough about Catholicism in general.

So my understanding was tradition and scripture, kind of both of ultimate authority, kind of.

We don't just change scripture, if that makes sense.

So how is tradition different in the sense that we're able to just change some things?

Genuinely curious, not trying to.

Okay, yeah, I can take this one.

So we think of scripture as, like, the word of God inspired by God, like created by God.

But we think of.

But tradition is written by humans, right?

So that's a distinction I make in my head of, like, tradition written by humans, like, altering the Bible is not in my.

Not necessarily my business because that is inspired by God.

But we also have lots of biblical scholars who, who are nuancing the Bible and helping us think about the Bible in different ways or helping us think about the Bible in different contexts.

So, you know, for those of us who have theological training, myself, Martha, Russ, you know, I. I think that, you know, when we're in graduate school studies in theology, I mean, that's like, one of the first things you.

You learn.

There's a great professor at B.C.

andrew Davis.

And he talks about the world inside the text, the world outside of the text, and then the world beyond the text.

And I think that's a really great way of thinking about kind of how we apply things that were written for a specific time, inspired by a specific time for our.

For our time.

Now, I also would just add, sorry, this is a little long winded, that I work on classical figures in ethics like Augustine and Aquinas who have said some really not great things about women, about life, about the body, about sexuality.

But there's also like some really interesting stuff in their work.

I just did a paper on order and disorder in the writings of St. Augustine for basically liberation and body affirmation.

And so I also think that or we exist in a time where people can think creatively about these resources and help us reorient them in the direction we're going.

For those of us in the church reform movement, those reorientations are like just the first step.

Right.

Like there's so much more to be done.

We have to shift our thinking and then we can kind of do the next step.

But that would be my, my answer to your question, which is, which is I think one that many Catholics in the reform movement are grappling with.

Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Also, real quick, shout out.

Since you mentioned some of these tradition and the stuff going on and how we've got to where we are.

Our biggest episode last year of downloads was actually an episode we did with Beth Alison Barr, who does talk a lot about some of the history of how we got to where we are with only male celibate priests and how that just isn't how it always was.

So I think her stuff's really interesting.

So check Beth Alison Barr out.

Check that episode out with us because we need more downloads.

Yeah.

Also she does great job.

Yeah.

Support her on Substack.

She should have more money.

Yeah.

Also she reads similar books to tj.

I found out.

Yeah, she's cool.

It's really interesting that I think the Catholic Church and there may be reasons for this kind of has some of the same issues as like modern day American Republicans where all of a sudden tradition, like we're not changing anything ever again.

It's going to be this way forever.

It's interesting how that happens in organizations that have existed for either a couple hundred or a couple thousand of years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think, you know, one, one thing that I often think about is I guess it's Isaiah 43, don't quote me on that.

But God says, like, see, I am doing something new.

And I think too often when we rely too heavily on tradition and even on especially a literal understanding of scripture, we can sort of like, veer off into this sort of intellectual idolatry that kind of creates tradition and scripture as being God when those are just meant to be revelations of God.

But God is God, and God is bigger than us, and God is bigger than our intellectual history and bigger than our scriptures.

And so if God wants to do something new, God can do something new.

And that's what I, I feel like sometimes, especially on this question of women's ordination, like, the questions about, like, oh, well, did the church do it?

And the history and, you know, were they actually sacramentally ordained?

Like, I don't know.

And I, you know, I have my feelings about that.

I have some educated hypotheses about that because of my history and theological education.

But, like, at the end of the day, what if God just changed?

What if God.

Well, God doesn't change, but what if God is doing something new?

What if God said, you broke the covenant?

We see this all through the Hebrew scriptures.

You broke the covenant.

This thing wasn't working.

We had this deal and it wasn't working.

So here's a new deal.

Yeah.

And what's to say God isn't still doing.

Yeah, yeah.

That's for me, I.

That's what gives me passion, is to look and see where God is at work and kind of join in that work.

Yeah.

The idea that a church that is supposed to serve the world, the living, breathing, changing world, is not also supposed to be a living, breathing, changing organization, is a little bit silly to me personally.

Yeah, yeah.

You said something earlier that I just thought interesting.

I wanted to pick at a little bit because you were talking about that comparison of, like, American Constitution, what we're doing with, like, the Republican Party right now.

And tradition can't change.

As I study law, there's like, a few different parties that just different ways of reading the law, which I think can apply to how we read tradition or Scripture.

So I just think it's interesting because you have like, the textualists who are.

What it says.

That's it.

If what it literally means isn't what they meant for it to mean, too bad.

That's what it literally means.

You have people who read it as progressive law, as like, okay, so this is where it was, and we were meant to progress past it.

And then you have originalists who can be conservative or more progressive in how they do it.

Because they're looking at what was the original intent of why this was written and then applying it to this current world.

So I think, to me, I always thought originalist was the healthiest way to read anything, basically.

So I think it applies to Scripture, too, where I'm like, yeah, I like this originalist idea of, like, what was the original intent of why this was written?

Then I can ask, okay, now how does that apply now rather than that original tint for that time?

Still applies the exact same way in our time, and probably not.

Yeah, there's something to be said about the study of theology and then the study of law and then the study of rules, like for Dungeons and Dragons.

They're all just derived from each other and they get called different things as you keep going down.

For dnd, we call that rules as written versus rules as intended.

Yeah, there are a lot of funny.

Especially in, like, conservative Protestant circles.

I know there's a ton of people who are just textualist when it comes to the Bible.

I don't care if what was meant.

Wasn't that God to love the world?

That's what it says.

Which, you know, obviously that's what it means, but, like, there are some passages where I think people clearly know that that's not what was meant.

That's what those words right there say, though.

Four corners of the earth.

It's a square, flat earth.

Now, square, flat and square.

It's not even flat and round.

Yeah, no, but, yeah.

Anyway, that's a.

That's a whole other tangent.

So what progress or challenges have y' all seen in your goals since the future church was founded?

All right, whoever wants to.

I don't know at.

I don't think anyone here really looks old enough to have been here the whole time future Church has been.

I certainly haven't.

I am as old as future church.

Yeah.

We are the same age.

Happy birthday.

Yeah.

Russ could secretly be 60 or 70.

I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure he's 30s, though.

I actually really appreciate that.

I'm 43.

I was born in 1999.

I'm the baby.

Future Church.

Me too.

Congrats.

You're also the baby of future.

No, I'm the baby of the whole church.

Okay.

Yeah.

But not the one that everyone thinks about.

Yeah, all churches get together.

We love Jesus, that baby, but we also all claim tj.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the biggest unifier.

Yeah.

If you need to throw me up on the board for sympathy, just do it.

Look at this baby.

How dare you not love Him.

So, Russ, when you disappeared, we had asked what progress or challenges that you've seen in your goals since Future Church was founded or since you all joined Future Church.

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that I've seen is, is that we've mainstreamed some conversations that were happening in, like, people's living rooms amongst Catholics who were concerned about the church that, like, you couldn't have out in public.

Like, you couldn't come to your, you know, your church and talk about women, or you couldn't talk about, you know, LGBTQ people, or you could, you know.

So I think we've mainstreamed a lot of conversations.

And a prime example of that is the Wim and Deacons work.

We've been at that for 20 some odd years, you know, really, really pushing hard.

And for a time there was like, oh, that's, you know, a third rail.

And now it's not.

Now it's openly being discussed.

So I think.

I think that's one of the big things that we've accomplished, particularly through, like, education and empowerment.

I think education empowers people.

And so we've been able to do a lot of that because a lot of this history, the church wants to sort of hide or Martha and Olivia are going to laugh at me.

Obfuscate.

It's one of my favorite words when it comes to the Catholic hierarchy.

They love to.

That's a good word.

So I think that's, you know, overall one of.

One of the biggest things we've done.

Our patron saint is Mary Magdalene.

So we've been working to reclaim Mary Magdalene from the patriarchy pretty much since our beginning days and really sort of help people re understand her true role in Scripture because it has been distorted over the centuries.

And I don't know if Martha or Olivia, you want to jump in here.

We were actually in Rome at the synod last year advocating that, like Mary Magdalene's story should.

This is a whole church thing.

I think the Catholic Church is rare amongst Christian traditions in that on Easter Sunday, we don't actually hear about Jesus appearing, the risen Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene in the Catholic Church.

We cut it short so that we don't hear the part where Jesus says to Mary, go and tell my sisters and brothers that all this stuff that I've said to you and to go meet me in Jerusalem, we just ignore that.

That part happens.

We ignore Easter on Easter because it could be scandalous.

This is a woman that Jesus chose to go and be the first to proclaim the central mystery of our faith.

But we ignore that.

So anyhow, we went to Rome and we were trying to advocate for that, and we actually got.

We found a.

We were able to get a proposal in the final document coming out of the synod that said that we needed to reconsider and create more space for women who have been eliminated, hidden, diminished by our lectionary, which is the set of, again, Catholicism is a lectionary based liturgical church.

So we have a set of readings that we have to do.

So to rewrite that and to bring more women into it, I think that would be a huge shift.

Of course, when we're thinking about the Overton window, like, women's ordination is way over here and just actually telling the truth about women in Scripture is sort of way back here.

But it could lead us in that direction.

Yeah, I would just kind of echo everything Russ said.

I think that was really, for me personally.

I think.

I think if I could be so bold to say, of our team, I'm probably the most like.

Like, I love the Catholic Church.

Like, I'm very.

I'm very committed to institutional faith at this point in my spiritual journey.

Not.

Not without, like, criticizing and critique.

And so that was a pretty.

Just for me personally, like, seeing that language in the final document was a huge.

Really good for my heart and my soul.

And I think that, you know, that's a really tangible step.

And we're about to start working on how to really implement this full lectionary reading on Easter Sunday, hopefully for this year, because the synod is now in its implementation phase after that final document was released, before Pope Francis passed away.

And so right now we're looking at, how are we spreading the word about this?

How are we asking people to proclaim these stories in their churches on Easter Sunday?

What are, like, who are the people who are advocating for this?

And.

And sort of like building a community of people advocating for this, both in the US and beyond, to sort of, kind of further push this.

You know, the language in the final document was we should look at this and do this, which is very like, institutional Catholic Church.

Like, we should ask the question, we should keep asking questions, we should keep being curious.

And so, like, while that language feels sufficient and exciting, especially because Pope Francis made that final document magisterium and the official teaching of the church, it still requires some work on our end.

So that's kind of, you know, to kind of carry on, like, that's where we're heading next with this work, and people seem to be enthusiastic about it.

Um, and the last thing I'll say is, you know, I do think the lectionary is a great place for us to start.

Right.

Like, Russ sort of touched on this at the end of his.

His comments.

It's a great place for us to start telling the truth.

I really loved that you said that, Russ, because when we start telling the truth, the other.

The other kind of, you know, make believe things that the church tells us about gender, sexuality and things like that sort of, you know, their.

Their falseness, if that's even a word, becomes even more apparent because we see who Jesus was talking to and who Jesus was calling.

I love that.

And it goes back to our conversation a few minutes ago about scripture and tradition.

The story of Mary Magdalene is right there in scripture.

It's not something we even have to search for.

It is blatantly on the page.

And so to do the work and to make the effort to bring that page to life from our pulpits and in our parishes is a really great place for us to start.

And.

And I would add, too, when reflecting on our time in Rome, I think part of the progress that I see for our organization is hinting at Russ's comments.

We're not doing this in a church basement anymore, you know, with the.

With the blinds closed and talking to.

To each other about how best to, you know, uplift the voice of the laity.

We were out on the streets of Rome and joining with other church reform organizations, which I think is another.

Another big step.

Future Church started in Cleveland, Ohio, with a few people from a few different parishes coming together, and is now nationally known and beginning to be an internationally, internationally known organization.

And so to be in Rome with partner church reform organizations, you know, all coming at this work from a different angle, but standing together and saying, we all are passionate about women's leadership in the church.

We all are passionate about LGBTQ rights in church spaces and beyond, and these other things.

It was really gratifying to know we are not alone in this work and we're not afraid to proclaim it.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll just add to that, Martha.

Not only were we on the streets in Rome, we did get stopped.

We did get stopped once by Vatican police.

And I think we're probably on.

We've got some sort of record now, but we were detained, but momentarily.

But we actually.

We had a meeting with a representative from the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Discipline of Sacraments, which is basically the people who are in charge of Catholic liturgy at the Vatican.

And that was great.

The person that we spoke to was very receptive to what we had to say, took our information.

We delivered a petition that represented thousands of people who were calling for the same thing and took it.

And his comment to us was, oh, yeah, we know about this.

We know about the work that you're doing, and thank you so much for bringing it to us.

So, I mean, I don't think the founders of Future Church would have ever thought that the Future Church staff and a couple volunteers, one of whom, Lucy, may she rest in peace, died just shortly after we were in Rome.

She had an illness, and it was just like a beautiful thing that she was able to participate in that and sort of, like, achieve this milestone in her lifetime.

And it's a reminder that, like, this work just continues.

And, you know, I guess to get back to my point, the founders of Future Church probably could never have imagined that the staff and volunteers from Future Church would be sitting in a Vatican office, having a conversation with the Vatican.

Official or being arrested by Vatican officials.

Detained.

Detained momentarily.

Yeah, yeah, detained, like, stopped.

You know, not even really.

They took information from us.

They wanted to see what we were carrying.

They took our passports.

It helps.

It helps the cred to be like, yeah, we were arrested for this until we were arrested.

Yeah.

No.

Real quick, though, Russ, talking about how far our Future Church has come.

I know Catholic Women Preach is kind of under the umbrella of this.

There's a few other organizations.

Right.

Can you kind of maybe tell us what else is under Future Church?

So when we invite you next time onto an episode, we'll have something else to talk about.

So Catholic Women Preach is the big one.

It's really not a separate organization.

But speaking to the progress that Future Church has made, when we launched Catholic movement preach in 2016, there was a decision to say, like, let's sort of create this project that has its own identity, its own branding, its own website that sort of feels.

Because at the time, like, even using the word Catholic Women Preach, like, adding that word, we had debates about whether or not we should use that word preach.

And so we wanted to give Catholic Women Preach its best chance to survive.

And we knew that tying it to Future to Church might make people a little bit wary of it.

But now, again, that conversation is mainstream.

Women should be preaching in our churches on Sundays from the pulpit, like that conversation is happening.

And so we're beginning to strengthen the connection.

So you can be forgiven, Joshua, for being fooled by our trickery.

And that was sort of the intent.

But now we're doing some work to.

Great.

It worked well to help People see that future church and Catholic women preach are one and the same.

But we've got lots of points.

Projects that we do, and we actually work in coalition with a lot of other groups, a lot of other Catholic reform groups, and we often have different projects that kind of take on a similar vibe, where they have their own identity, such as, like a church for our daughters.

Time's up.

Catholics speak out.

There's just different things that we do.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Well, I'm sure we'll talk about some of those, more of those as time goes on.

We like having return guests that we keep bothering.

So you've apparently, unfortunately, you've become a victim.

I always enjoy our conversations.

Yeah, that's good.

That's good.

Because I plan to have more, probably.

I do like to talk, you know.

Me too.

Most people on the show do.

Yeah.

It's easy to fill an hour.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

For sure.

And as you know, and Olivia might remember.

But surprise to Dr. Martha, one thing we always do before we wrap up our episodes, just ask for a tangible action that would help better engender Christian unity across denominations.

Something practical our listeners could just stop and do after this podcast.

Just go do it.

And since Martha hasn't done this yet, I'll throw it to you first.

Martha, what's something practical listeners could do as soon as they're done listening to us, Wrap this episode up.

Wow.

You know what I was thinking about?

I don't know who calls this practical, but I sure do, is to go somewhere and listen.

I mean, I was thinking about where I'm located in the world.

I can walk down the street and walk to a bar, walk to a coffee shop and.

And how often when we go to those spaces, are we, you know, kind of caught up in our own conversations or in a coffee shop with headphones on?

It's so rare that we're engaging with one another in a space where we don't know if that other is going to be quote, unquote, on our side or not.

So to make the effort, the concentrated effort, to disconnect, Disconnect from the device and to connect to the people in the room with you, I think when it comes to church unity, when it comes to national unity and just loving your neighbor, listening has to be the first step.

So what do you think would change in the church and the world if everyone listened to you and just start paying attention to their community and put down the device?

Not necessarily right now.

When you're hearing this, give it another few minutes.

But otherwise, yeah.

When the podcast is over, I think there would be an increase in compassion and empathy for each other, which is ideal, which can change the world.

Maybe necessary.

And if I didn't, and if I didn't believe that can change the world, I don't think I could call myself a Christian.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

Olivia.

Russ, anything to add as far as practical actions?

What do you think would change if we all listened to Martha more?

Yeah, Martha our guest or Martha Magdalene?

Either one.

I had a similar response as Martha, which was listening, and I was actually getting grounded.

I'm a part of an intentional community for adults with intellectual disabilities, with and without intellectual disabilities called l'.

Arche.

They're all over the world.

And I'd love to talk about it another time, but for the purposes of our time today, there's a practice in l' Arche called Sacred Stories.

And I just led a retreat for l' Arche last week, and I did a practice of sacred storytelling with the folks on the retreat.

And my really good friend was another leader and he told his.

And I didn't know so much about him, like, so much of his story.

I just, like, had no idea.

And I think he's one of my closest friends.

And so I. I was moved by compassion, but I was also like, wow, every person I see, I don't know their sacred story, and I don't know what they think their sacred story is.

And I think sacred story stories tell us a lot about where we come from.

Like, I come from Boston, Massachusetts, but I come from so much more than that.

Right.

And so, yeah, that was.

I was thinking about listening and like.

Like, what does it mean for us to know each other?

Because I think when we know each other, we can disagree better, and when we disagree better, we're just better neighbors and we can change each other's minds if we disagree with respect as opposed to disagreeing with animosity.

So similar to Martin, Martha, just a little bit different.

But listening, I think, is key here.

Yeah, I like it.

I like it.

Russ, any.

Anything else?

If you don't say listening, I do think you're wrong.

It seems.

Well, I was gonna.

We.

We had an advent evening of reflection a couple weeks ago and our guest, Father Ann, I'm gonna have to paraphrase her, but she said something to the effect of, you are a unique, unrepeatable once in history revelation of God through whom God is trying to say something about God self.

And I just wanted to.

I guess this is listening because we want to listen to people But I just wanted to urge people to see each other as that unique in a lifetime, unrepeatable revelation of God.

And how I think it goes beautifully with listening because that means listening to their story, that means listening to their perspective.

And again, I think it would increase our compassion and our openness to one another.

All right, so before we really wrap it up, we like to do something called our God moment.

Olivia Press.

Y' all might remember Martha.

Welcome to the show.

It's just a moment where we saw God in recently in our lives, whether that be in a blessing of worship, a challenge.

I always make Josh go first, and his computer just now stopped working, so.

And now Russ is gone.

So I'll go first and I'll.

I'll just go through my God moment and then we'll.

We'll get both of them in time.

For me, I.

God is all around us always, obviously.

But my sisters for, well, my sister for Christmas decided, you know, the kids have been like clamoring for another pet.

She decided chickens was a good choice.

Sure.

But they never really talked about, like, you know, they got the setup.

Like, they built a coop, they have the heater in the, in the garage to raise the baby chicks.

But her and my brother in law didn't discuss who's getting the chickens.

So instead of going together with the kids to buy chickens from a flea market, because we live in South Carolina, they just both came home one day from work and stopped and bought a dozen chicks each.

So now they have 24 chicks.

And I think that's beautiful irony.

Yeah.

18 count chicken nugget and then six chicks for the kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the lesson there is that you should be listening more and communicating more with each other.

I, I think that's what God was trying to teach them that day.

Is that a challenge or.

God was trying to teach me that I don't need to go over there until those chickens are grown because chicks really bad, turns out.

So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us?

Yes.

I don't know what to go with.

I don't know how.

Somehow this always catches me off guard.

We do this every week.

You think?

Yeah.

And you had more time this time than you have for the past seven years.

I used the technical difficulties to juke out and make you go first.

But I go with the we.

I go with the work one also, because I thought it was funny.

But so two on the same day, I had workers tell me that they're just like, really thankful that they got to have me as a Manager and that they just appreciate me, and it just made me feel really blessed.

Of course, one of them told me in the way of, like, actually being like, hey, I just.

I'm really honored that I got to have you as a manager and be really other than was like, hey, I really like having you as a manager.

You would be one of my favorite closing managers.

If you closed more, I'm like, I would be.

Thank you.

Not going to close more, but thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a little thing.

It's a blessing.

Sometimes you just need encouragement.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's helpful.

Olivia, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Sure, Sure.

I, Martha, and Russ, know that I love the ocean.

Like, it's my favorite place to go.

And if.

If I'm missing, I'm near an ocean.

And I just went to Key west, which was so beautiful, and there was this sandbar that I found, like, at the beach I was at.

And I went by myself.

I was with friends, but I went by myself.

And I sat in the sandbar just, like, honestly, like crisscross applesauce, and just, like, breathed for a little while, and I was like, I just, like, felt deeply God's presence.

Like, I felt held by God in this.

In this sandbar.

And I started calling it my.

My prayerful splash pad.

And I would be like, oh, I have to go back tonight.

I have to go back to my prayer slap splash pad.

Nice.

If I wanted to space for my friends.

And it was just really, really great.

And I often see God in the ocean, but I really felt like God's presence, and I don't even know what the.

What the lesson was.

It was more so just like a profound peace that can probably only be given by God.

Yeah.

Love it.

Love it.

Yeah.

So, Martha, would you like to go next?

Give us your God moment, and then we'll make Russ bring us home.

Sure.

As our elder, I think he can do that.

You know, speaking of elders, when reflecting on my God moment, I was thinking about, you know, when we have our.

Our future church programs, our zoom calls, there's, like, some of the die hards, right?

The.

The ladies who have been part of the organization since it started 35 years ago, who are, you know, some who are in assisted living or, you know, can't kind of homebound, can't really leave their space.

Um, I suppose I'm cheating because it wasn't in the last week, but thinking about, you know, those moments where I lose hope in church reform or honestly, just the state of the world.

And I remember these.

A lot of them are ladies.

These ladies who have been doing this work for the better part of 50 years.

You know, they're spent their whole lives trying to make things better and are continuing to do so in the ways that they can.

It just makes my exhaustion feel.

Feel minuscule.

Like, it reminds me that, oh, there's so much more.

More work to do, and to know that that, like, hope is still part of their journey, even at this, you know, late stage in their journey.

That.

That's so God.

Like, there's nothing but God there.

Because what else could make you feel at home?

Yeah.

Love that.

Yeah, that's real.

Russ, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah, I was.

I'm a podcast person.

I love listening to podcasts.

Great news.

I know a couple.

Great, great news.

But I have several friends who have podcasts, and I try to listen to them weekly, and I always enjoy their podcasts.

But the one podcast I thought was really excellent, that dropped yesterday.

And so I just reached out to the two co hosts and I said, hey, I thought your podcast was really excellent.

And I explained why and I thought, you know, why I thought it was important that everyone hear it and what it touched, how it touched me personally.

And then that friend reached out to me to say that, like, he had actually written that entire podcast, done all the research for it, and it made him feel really proud to receive that feedback from me.

And it was this moment that I, like, I wasn't expecting any response.

I wasn't even expecting.

I certainly was expecting, like, that made me feel really proud.

It was just like this moment of God hitting me over the head, saying, like, affirm people more often, Tell them they're doing a good job, lift up their work, and just, like, support them.

And it doesn't take long.

It doesn't take a lot of effort.

But a lot of people are out here doing hard work, doing good work, putting good things into this world that feels so terrible at times.

And I think just God's telling us, just support each other.

So that was my God moment this week.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

It helps a lot.

And the email for the whole church is in the show.

Yeah, that's what I like to think Josh means when he says, tip your podcasters.

Affirmation tips.

That's.

Yeah, that's what we do it for, really.

Yeah.

We don't need product, but affirmation is great.

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Let others know about us.

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They're comfort colors.

They're so comfy.

I wear them to sleep.

I wear them to work.

I don't wear them to record a lot.

Be great if you did.

They're good for it.

But I don't.

I don't usually wear them.

I'm wearing one right now, though.

Yeah.

My favorite.

Well, not my favorite.

It's my second favorite.

My favorite ones with the trinity knot in the back.

Like, nice green color.

Same color as the shirt.

It's got the trinity knot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Also check out some of the other shows on podcast network.

Link for the whole network is in the show notes.

Of course you can listen to your matter matter soon will be up there.

You have my seminary life with Brandon Knight and recently actually guessing on Brandon's other show show, Kung Fu Pizza Party.

That's also on the network.

So lots of stuff.

Great show.

Good network.

It's a good show.

Great show.

I've also been on Kung Fu Pizza Party recently.

No, you should go back and talk about.

We hope you enjoyed it.

Yeah, well, I told him that he needs to have you on since he's doing a year of video games to talk about Ninja Kaidu or whatever that game is.

I can't think of the name of.

Yeah, Ninja Kaiden.

Yeah, that would be a great episode.

But we hope you enjoyed the show.

Coming up, we're going to be having Eric Nevins back on to discuss the state of Christian podcasts in 2026.

Then we're going to be having Andrew Fouts return to discuss Christian persecution around the world and what open doors Canada is still doing to help.

Then we're going to take a week off for Joshua's birthday slash anniversary because they're the same day.

Same week.

Same week, not the same day.

And then finally, at the end of season one of the course, Francis Chan's gonna be on the show.

Whoa.

Probably, Hopefully.

Probably.

Maybe.

Yeah.

If someone tells him, I mean, it is the truth.

He will be on the show at.

The end of season one.

Yeah.