[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss failure

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

It's almost spring. So I'm hearing. And yet we had a lot of snow this weekend, or not a lot of snow. We ha we had snow, we had snow and it just feels like a lot, but I, every year I make a joke around this, the spring Equinox and. I'm like spring and other lies is almost always what my like Instagram posts.

And I started one year when we had a major snow storm on it. And so I, unlike we always, so I started sister Spencer's, um, stop rising, which is like a spring folk magic course last week. And she was talking a lot about that and about how spring. Is chaotic. And like these seasons that are more kind of about like, sort of taking us to places and like they're a bit more like the, the ground where relaying plant, like how uncomfortable they are in so many ways.

And like, she's like, is it really any surprise that there's so much like, Partying and like all these rituals around celebrating spring again, it's like, no, as someone who's spent most of my life in the Northeast or in Northern climates, like, yeah, I get why everyone was so horny for the sun and it's returning.

Again, it had been a minute. I've taken a couple of

[00:01:55] Anna Toonk: episodes. All right. Are you

[00:01:59] Nina Endrst: horny for failure? I am horny for failure, actually. I maybe, yeah. You know, it's funny because this is something that comes up a lot for me, with friends that they're in my family, to be honest, that everyone's just like, Why are you so cool with?

Cause I'm like, I don't believe in it. So I'm so curious to hear what your thoughts are on it. Cause I feel like I didn't realize how I felt was very different than other people. Like it's been moving through adulthood whenever I was like, oh, I'm just so scared of failure. And I'm like, it's a mess. And

you haven't heard. Yeah. I mean, it's given me some insight. If I did want to become a cult leader, like I've clearly found some like that in like my lack of fear around death or, oh my God,

[00:02:51] Anna Toonk: that I'm just

[00:02:53] Nina Endrst: astounded by that. But that's another episode for another episode, I spent many years not knowing I was a fucking freak about these.

[00:03:01] Anna Toonk: Oh, I thought of you the entire I'm obsessed with this new show. You guys. I can't stop myself. Well, I had to stop cause it's over

[00:03:11] Nina Endrst: her mind and spirit. And I was like, I don't get how you can't watch like spooky stuff, but you can go for the emotionally devastating. And she was like, I love it

[00:03:19] Anna Toonk: emotionally.

Didn't you realize that when you were at my house and I was like, why don't watch the one about adoption?

[00:03:27] Nina Endrst: That was when I learned, I was like, ah, here's the line? Here's the line. Like I got it. Interesting. Okay. We can go there emotionally. It's okay. All right. I find that this stuff, that preferences are interesting to me, but yeah.

Reaching your mind and watching. Uh, life after death, life after death, I was busy watching, dating naked, um, a little whole show from 2014 because I thought I had made it up. I'm not afraid of failure at all. Yeah.

Oh my. I was thinking about like, could I do it like it? Could I go. Absolutely Notley not. Yeah. I'm like, could I do it? And I'm like, you know, you're going to be blurred. Like, and it, Nope.

[00:04:18] Anna Toonk: Carrier pits are also, is anyone not like isn't anyone worried about infection or like,

[00:04:26] Nina Endrst: I think bank, these fucking people do like a teeter-totter together.

Naked two adults on a Seesaw would, oh my God,

[00:04:34] Anna Toonk: I will not get that. Out of my head. This is, this is not why we're here. This is not

[00:04:40] Nina Endrst: why. Sorry. This episode on derailment brought to you. This is about

[00:04:46] Anna Toonk: naked. Oh, no naked and afraid. That's a different

[00:04:49] Nina Endrst: one. I don't like it. Maybe we'll expand into make it. What is wrong with

[00:04:54] Anna Toonk: people?

What is wrong with humans? We're so fucking weird.

[00:05:01] Nina Endrst: Ah, I,

[00:05:02] Anna Toonk: yeah, I think we failed cumin that's for sure. I don't

[00:05:08] Nina Endrst: believe in failure either. Although.

[00:05:12] Anna Toonk: Sometimes my behavior suggests otherwise

[00:05:20] Nina Endrst: I like it. How you said, like allegedly or that's been told to you,

[00:05:26] Anna Toonk: actually, this is

[00:05:29] Nina Endrst: an like, so I've been told

[00:05:33] Anna Toonk: by my. Self, my higher self, my higher

[00:05:37] Nina Endrst: self and me. So it made me laugh that the definition for failure, it's funny, I had a feeling you and I were aligned about that because obviously with business stuff, you know, we have to make a lot of those decisions that I think is about success versus failure.

You know? So I was like, if we had a huge. Like Gulf between what we believed I a feeling it would have come up. We've, we've, we've talked more, I feel like about what we define as success than what we define as failure, which I actually think is. Probably better for our natures, but the definition for failure is like hilariously brief.

It's so brief Oxford languages hasn't for us failure now, lack of success, period.

It's so funny and just like, oh, cool, cool, cool. And economic policy that is doomed to failure. Cool. The omission of expected or required action, their failure to comply with the basic rules. Yeah. It's pretty brief. Yeah. It's pretty brief. That is, I think,

[00:06:51] Anna Toonk: I can't really say we're going to find out, you know, but how can you really define it?

That's really,

[00:06:56] Nina Endrst: but don't you feel like I hear a lot about fear of failure are so afraid of it and I'm like, I think you're maybe a frayed of what people think, which is a different fear, you know, like, because. I mean, I guess it depends on how you failed. Like, I mean, I've said things of like, well, that was a failure.

People are like, what do you mean? And I'm like, well, it didn't succeed. Like, I guess like maybe for me, like, what's unusual about how I approach failure is like, I don't take it personal or I don't think I personally failed. It's like that thing I did, that was an extension of me. Did it work or whatever, like, I just don't take it as personally, I think in my, I was talking about this with my mom, because my mom was like, wow, I really have a fear of rejection.

And I'm like, you sure do. She's like, I was so afraid about you getting rejected from art school. Like I wanted to help you cheat on your home exam. Like, what was that about? And I'm like, yeah, I have the same question, mom. I'm so glad that we're visiting. Like 22 years later. And I'm like, how is she never walked up?

And she's like, your brother and I were talking about how much we have a fear of failure and a fair fear of rejection. And like you don't, you know, and I'm like, I guess for, I realized really young that I had to make myself, like, I always wanted to do things. You know, I just always wanted to do stuff like let's do this photo shoot, like with friend, like I just, I think if you're creative, it's like, Failure just goes hand in hand with that.

So I just feel like you can't have a huge issue with it. Otherwise you'll just never do what you love. Like I saw embracing failure, I guess, as a means to an end to the stuff that I loved. So I was just like, well, whatever I got to make my peace with it.

[00:09:04] Anna Toonk: I mean, you really have to, as a creative person, as an adventurous person as. You know, a human who wants to live outside of, I think, a controlled environment. There's so I hear, I listened to people talk about it all the time and in sessions and it's whether it's in marriages or jobs or just, you know, having conversations.

But I was actually having a session before this and someone was talking about she's incredibly educated in, you know, pretty. Mature in age. And she was saying how she gets really nervous around her boss and colleagues. And she sometimes, you know, drinks a little too much as I think a lot of people do in work environments because they get nervous.

And I, and she's like, what is that? I'm like, I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with just the lack of flow. If you're flowing through life or a conversation or a moment. And you're attached to failing or you're attached to doing it wrong. You're not going to be able to. Really be in whatever that is.

So if you're painting something, worrying about every stroke, failing at the bigger canvas in front of you, you know, creating something, how could you ever create it? Or, and so I think it's a lot of times rooted in people, as you said, being afraid of being rejected. And that failure is so closely related to.

Rejection.

[00:10:42] Nina Endrst: I don't know if they're

[00:10:45] Anna Toonk: the same. I don't think they're the same, but if you, if someone doesn't understand your choices or you are not deemed successful, then what are

[00:10:56] Nina Endrst: you worth? Yeah, I guess this is where. Having areas. Placements is nice. Cat is like, I don't give up, give a fuck. You know, like I'm like, okay.

Like, I mean, I want to hold space for the fact that like, anyone's feelings are valid, like when it comes to like divorce, for example, and I've heard this with lots of friends, you know, who are like, you know, like my marriage failed or like, I just feel like a failure. And I'm like, Okay. But it's the success of marriage truly defined as you stated together forever.

Like what are we defining success as like that's so often what I come back to and I'm like, why would you care more about what someone BB than imagined person, audience, society, whoever thinks is successful versus your own definition. It's like, I don't know. I think it takes a lot more courage to be like this isn't working than it is to just like, be miserable the rest of your life.

I

[00:12:03] Anna Toonk: think that's way more successful.

[00:12:06] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Like what are we defining as success? Like just like grinning and bearing it or. Conforming. Yes, I do want that. I was like, what's the word? I swear, man. The pen Dimmi I can't wait to get those IQ points back. I don't know how it's going to happen, but eventually, maybe talking to other people the full hello, this helps it does.

I'm like, oh man, I need to like, figure out what words I want to string together. But yeah, like, is it conforming? Is it just like S trying to sort of like have the appearance of being. Oh, fully fledged functioning adult. Like what, what is success? You know, and I think for me, a big, big teacher has been career, you know, and me having to constantly come back to when people are like, really, are you going to do that?

Or I remember when I left here, I had one friend who kept being like, cool, like how's the tarot thing going? What are you going to get a real job? Like, and she didn't even know that she was being a jerk. Like she didn't even get that. That was like not the coolest thing to be saying that. And I kept being like, I'm not like, this is my job now.

This is what I do now. And she just like, it took her two years to really understand that. I think because she's so invested in like, Capitalistic measures of success. It's so much for her about like what you make and are you getting promoted? What, you know, like where do you fall in the corporate structure?

Like, and that's fine. I don't, I mean, I've bought into that before too. Like I don't, I don't think we always get a choice in what we value if that's what you super care about by all means. But. Interesting to me, that me sort of being like, that's not my definition of success. I don't really feel great in my life right now.

And this feels better was just like, like it just exploded her brain. Every time we had this conversation, I had to like remind her that we philosophically deferred. Well, I think

[00:14:09] Anna Toonk: that something that you do a lot, which I

[00:14:13] Nina Endrst: really appreciate

[00:14:15] Anna Toonk: it. Look to the opposite. And I don't think a lot of people do that.

And I don't think we're taught to do that. And I share that and often approach things like that, you know, in life. But you, when people think of failure, I don't think a majority of people even think about success truly. I think they're so. Trained. And I don't mean because we're not smart, but I think we're just, it's so ingrained in us to sink about failure and fearing and being taught to fear failure that we don't even sit down to think about what a successful life even means to us, how we define that.

So if you're when I moved. I didn't get pushback from anybody or, but I know that, you know, a lot of my relationships ended right there. It's crazy to look back and not know that they were all ending a lot of them. But when I see myself leaving New York and see myself having drinks with people, and I know that what they thought, which is no fault of their own and everybody lives their own way, that I was going on.

Some, you know, little journeys. QQ and I'd be back in some capacity or I'd find my way back to a life they could understand. Um, and I didn't, and even now it's not that I live this wild, like in a van life, but I don't see. Oh,

[00:15:45] Nina Endrst: you're very normal. I mean, that's, what's so funny. Like you're so grounded. You think I'm normal?

That's so. I mean normal for not, you know, but like totally. I always tell people, like, I'm a weird person or like I'm a relatively normal person who does a weird job. I mean, I'm also weird, but I'm like, I don't think you're normal. Yeah. I'm not normal, but like, I think you're similar of like, you still, you get up every morning, you have breakfast, you know, like yeah.

The van over and like heating it on us. So, you know, like, no. Structure, you know, you've just decided on what those things look like. Like, you know, that to me is like often what we're talking about, like, what is normal? You know, like when people are throwing this stuff around, like he drives me crazy. But sometimes when we're doing stuff, I'll be like, well, what is it we mean by blah?

And I'm like, this is like, why it matters? Like, how are we defining these things?

[00:16:43] Anna Toonk: I love that you do that. And it's really important. And even if momentarily, I just want to be like, I don't know, Anna, I just want to say something and get out.

[00:16:53] Nina Endrst: You're like, I just want the newsletter to go out from like

[00:16:57] Anna Toonk: the fucking thoughts again, like, okay, let's do this, let's do this. It's really great. It's been really beneficial for me as a human being. And also I, you know, cause I need to slow down and I like to think about things a little more in-depth than you challenge me, which I really appreciate.

But I remember sitting at one of my oldest friend's houses and his dad is very traditional and like. You know, super, they have just this Berry kind of like normal structure of fan. And I'm sitting there with his family. And one of his aunts was like very drunk and I was on my way to Morocco and she's like, you can't go there.

I was like, why not? And she's like, oh yes, you like, I'm like, what Muslims are there? Like, what are you about to say? Oh, and oh yeah. And she was like really aggressive. And I was just like, okay, I'm not going to entertain you. And then his brother. Oh, it must be nice to travel, you know? and then his dad was like only did I make sense to him when my friend said, oh yeah, Nina is doing this thing.

Working with three people. He's like, that's a real brand.

[00:18:11] Nina Endrst: Oh, God. I was like,

[00:18:15] Anna Toonk: yeah, well, I've worked for like more major companies than you have in your entire life, sir. The N I'm 20, you know, eight or nine. So like, let's take a seat.

[00:18:25] Nina Endrst: Let's let's show some respect to

[00:18:27] Anna Toonk: your brand out there. Please take a seat.

Okay. Allow me to introduce you to my resume. No. Yeah, my life is real. It just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean that I've succeeded or failed. But it's interesting because for a while, that's why I said my behavior. Maybe doesn't always match up with my belief. I found myself chasing, not that, but trying to understand myself in.

Content in like a different context because I'd only known, oh, I work here. I do that here and in my work life, and this was I'm flying free and I'm yeah, I'm teaching, but I don't, it's me, you know, it's not like I don't have a title to point to, or I can be fucking banana hammock one day and intuitive guide the next day.

I mean, I wasn't, but. So I did notice people get really uncomfortable in my presence a lot just by living differently. And I don't think it was that they thought that I was doing anything wrong. But the fact that it was very obvious that I wasn't concerned with failure. I'm like, listen, it's not here.

Right. It's not working. Whatever I'm doing doesn't feel good anymore. So how much worse could it get?

[00:19:55] Nina Endrst: I also wonder why. When we don't understand something or we're like, you know, kind of like that sounds wacky, you know, or whatever. We assume people haven't done research or don't like, I mean, granted a lot of people don't, I think a lot of people don't understand that Google exists and Google could be your best friend, everybody.

[00:20:19] Anna Toonk: If you're listening that one's for you for me.

[00:20:24] Nina Endrst: That's very funny, but I find it really fascinating. I sent you there's an artist. I really like Lord cowboy. And I don't know if she says it, fuse SCO. How w how she says her last name and she moved to Mexico. Apparently that's a theme. I wonder when I'll do it.

And. You know, she wrote this thing and talked about how much people, like fear projected onto her is what she called it, which I really enjoyed. But she's like, they're doing it supposedly out of like Karen concern or under the guise of that. But like, where's that being demonstrated and something I find so interesting is like, when people are so afraid you're going to fail at like, whatever you're saying, you're doing, you know, like I'm leaving this career, I'm leaving New York, I'm leaving, you know, whatever.

Yeah. Like where is the. And concern. And also like when did y'all become fucking experts. Like, it was very interesting to me, all of the people who had like, I don't know, I don't feel like they'd had particularly dynamic careers or whatever. All of a sudden we're like experts in the taro business, you know?

And I was like, wow, I never knew this about you. It would have been cool. If you had mentioned it. When I started doing tarot that you were an expert in this field, you know, like who all of a sudden had so much to say about it and that there's this. Something, I guess about like the threat level, you don't level midnight or something about it that makes people immediately want to do power dynamics and be like, I'm more adult or I'm more together or I'm more successful because like, what I do is like easily understood or has a different structure, or it has more people attached to it or whatever.

And it's. You know, people get up every day and do a math, do millions of things, unbeknownst to us and pay their bills, keep a roof over their head, keep food in their bellies, raise children, you know, like there's a million different ways to live. Like that's always what I come back to, but it's like something about failure.

And really, I think failure in our society has become like embarrassing. Like don't put yourself out there and then be embarrassed. Cause it didn't work. And I'm like, but then what, then how does anything get done? You know? Like it's

[00:22:48] Anna Toonk: just what happens if you're embarrassed? Yeah. Like, so,

[00:22:53] Nina Endrst: I mean, I've definitely been a little embarrassed about things here and there.

Of course, you know, like I would never be like, I mean, even with soul, I think I felt a little bit with friends, like. You know, they were a little confused, some of them and w well, intention, they weren't, no one was being a jerk, but they were like, you were so into it. And now you're so not, we're just confused, you know?

And I'm like, it's not that I'm not into it. I just want to redirect energy, you know, but I did think, I felt a little bit, like, I didn't want them to think I had been disingenuous, you know, that I'm like both of my feelings are true. You know, like they've just, flip-flopped, that's it, you know, like I was as intuitive as I was then, and I'm as not into it as I am now, you know?

Like, and I think that's hard stuff. I don't think we always know how to deal with that or how to meet it, you know,

[00:23:50] Anna Toonk: you know, I think I would have been really embarrassed. Maybe not embarrassed, but definitely a little.

[00:23:57] Nina Endrst: I don't know. I don't know what it is either bears isn't

[00:24:02] Anna Toonk: it it's just, I don't know. I can't pinpoint to it right now, but about soul, if I didn't know so deeply that first of all, I failed a million times in work and also, and it's always led to things that are, make me happier and more successful.

And also that what we were doing. Really the intention is all that matters to me. And it's all that has ever mattered to me. And when that became something that ran away from me and, or I let you know, morph into something else, it couldn't be like, it just, it didn't work. So with how to be human, I think I would have felt lost is I was, I will say I would have felt lost if we didn't have something to channel that energy and.

Yeah. Like the fact that we have the membership and I'm recreating stuff all the time is really, really, really just special to me. Like I have no, it feeds me in a way that I've been expected to when I even started this whole thing. But if I didn't, if it was just like hard stop kind of silence, I think I'd have a hard time reconciling that.

And it's not like some consolation prize, it's just, it's an evolution. And I really understand that about it. And I think that's because I'm more mature and because I partner with you and we have been in such honest conversation about success and failure and, and trying things, and, you know, I want to do things all the time that you're like, whoa, whoa, slow down.

And that has really helped me process things differently. When it comes to work. And so I felt really confident about it, but again, and I, I also don't, I just, who do I care about at the end of the day? More than anything, you know, me and like my family, I don't, if somebody thinks that I failed, that doesn't really have anything to do with me, have I had to remind myself of that over my life time?

Yeah. Obviously, but I can't like live that way. I can't live by that.

[00:26:16] Nina Endrst: Yeah, no, you can't. I die. No. Yeah. I mean, it would just be like paralyzing, you know, like I think that, I think failure has always taken me to the next thing. And I think failure has always been like information. When I got to New York, like my God, I was so sure of so many things.

I mean, granted, I was seven. No, I was 18.

[00:26:46] Anna Toonk: You moved there when you were 18. Yeah

[00:26:49] Nina Endrst: alone. Yeah. I know. I, my mom's like, I cried all the way home and I couldn't watch law and order anymore. And I was like, yeah. And then I was like, fair. The older I got. And like, you look at 18 year olds and you're just like, oh my God, I can't believe like that's where my mom is so weird that she was like, yeah.

Okay. I'll support this. And I'll drop my child off. And her husband's died. Two years prior, you know, like a lot of bravery, I don't give her credit for, you know, and a lot of freedom she gave me. But then on the other hand, when I was like, mom, I was in this person, senior seminar, then not letting me on. And she was like, what do you want me to do?

I'm like call them, do something. I don't know. I was like, no, buh-bye we moved to New York when you're 18. Figure it out. Okay. Yeah. She was like, well, that's how, this is how I'm going to parent this one and see that. You know, seems to be the way to go. But I think like I was, you know, like I knew it was like photography or biased, you know, art, I want to work at magazines, dah, dah, dah.

I was so sure. And it was like within seconds. I was like, yeah, I don't think I want to be a professional photographer. Kind of kills the love. I got my dream internship at Jane magazine. I was like, yeah, I fucking hate magazines. You know, like. You know, and I think that was also so helpful to me. They'd be like, you know, sometimes like with friends, they'll just be like, I just feel like such a failure I failed or whatever.

And I'm like is not liking something failing. Well, that's like, that's crazy to me. Like, I mean, most, I would say most of my friends are in therapy and it's like therapies essentially, like, you know, 50 minutes, like you can't unpack everything in 15 minutes. Like you have to give yourself some breaks, you know?

And I feel like if you, if you didn't like it is now, you're going to internalize that as failure. That's not helpful that doesn't help you figure out what your next thing is. I was like, okay, this is information. I'm going to have to figure something else out, you know? And it was like my just going, well, it's not that, you know, like I didn't really enjoy it, you know, because I don't know.

Like part of why I always op you don't like offer the opposite is because I know myself, I swing between extremes. So the only way for me to be balanced is to recognize both of those extremes, you know, and that helps me. Figure shit out or get information in, you know? And so I think for me, like I felt this pressure and I felt this, like, I better not fail because like, when I went to school, everyone was like art school, like good, like enjoy working at McDonald's like.

So, yeah. And just, and I was like, oh yeah, watch me. Like, I'll employ all of you one day. And then I divested from pap capitalism and cared a lot less, but I. Did feel that for a while, for sure. I would say my first two years of college, I was like, I better fucking figure something out, figure it out. Like I don't want to fail.

And then pretty quickly I was like, I'm having the time of my life. I'm having, I mean, I've never worked as hard as I did when I went to Parsons. Like, if you're thinking about going to art school or know someone who is. Give them a lot of support. It's really fucking hard. They try to weed us out. You know, I started in class at 200.

I graduated with 60 kids cause that's how many dropped out or failed out, you know, it was rigorous. And when I got to production, they're all like, you're gonna work. Like you've never worked before in your life. You're never sleeping again. And pretty quickly I was like, this is nothing it's easier than art school was, you know, but I loved that.

I loved having. All this energy that I wanted to create and collaborate and having places to funnel it. And I think that helped me from a really young age start. Like, I didn't know I was listening to my intuition, but that's essentially what it was. And I liked that you said flow earlier. Cause that's what a lot of it was that.

I learned to figure out when I was in flow versus when I was not. And I think most of us are so much more capable than we give ourselves credit for. And we get so hung up on like words and labels of like, I'm this, or I'm a science person or whatever. And it's like, these things can have a million different applications.

And I think because I was so ruled by how I felt. That I would be like, yeah, I'm good at a lot. I'm interested in a lot, but how do I feel? And I always knew sort of the feeling I was chasing, you know, career-wise that, that's how I think that's how I define success. Like, do I, am I really excited about it?

Do I really love it? You know? And like, are there. Moments that make all of it seem worthwhile. Are there, you know, like it, it really helped me get, I think, connected to like, what was my own criteria? I also think too, I interned a lot. I worked for a lot of people. I did a lot of cool stuff. I've gotten to meet a lot of big brands, all of that sort of stuff that I think like also too, when you tick a few boxes or you get a few experiences at other people.

Dream about. And you're like, I don't want to be a jerk, but that's not, not cool. Like being on the red carpet, it's actually really stressful and tedious. Like it's not cool. And I get, and I get that. I have the privilege of saying it that I've experienced it, you know? I, you know, it's like when people are like, don't have a wedding and you're like, well, you're only saying that because you had one, you know, like some people, you know, like, I mean, my mom has had a few and she, you know, she's like Joe Jewett.

And I'm like, when you've done it like three times, no she's done it twice. You know, we've had a couple of counties. We've only had two marriages and. So I, I get that. I recognize that, but like, I understand wanting to like, do something fancy or that everyone talks about or whatever. What I don't understand is like saying that's the only way to be successful.

That's the only way. But like, I do think it gave me some freedom that like, when people were sort of like, oh, you're sure about that. I'm just like, listen, I've worked with a lot of fancy people in a lot of fancy shit and it didn't make me happy. You know, like this. Does. So that's what I'm going with. And they're like, well, can't argue with you there.

And it's like, yeah. So like, can we move on

[00:33:40] Anna Toonk: and you don't need that. It is obviously of great privilege that Anna, both Anna and I have had, you know, to do. Like that. I remember being at a party at fashion week for Alexander Wang's party. And my, I was with my boss at the time and was very close with him and I knew that they were close and I've like been, you know, privy to many close conversations that they're having.

And he totally snapped her at the party. And, um, I. I don't want to make assumptions, but I will say that she does not fit the mold of, you know, a woman who works in fashion. And I think he was totally, just didn't want to be like, not around a thin, you know, model at that moment. And he was. Totally rude to her.

And I remember sitting there with her and I could tell she was embarrassed and I was just like, this is not it. This and this woman had dedicated and still is there her entire life to this business. I mean, her health, her time, her, like she was an emotional roller coaster and she was the first one there.

Last one, gone. What's a single mom had her baby when she was 16. Like she was a fucking beast. When it came to work, she is the one that discovered Ashley Graham actually. Oh wow. I was there when she came, they, she brought these girls, these women into our office and I was like, whatever she's doing right now, it's like, Different and I love it.

And so anyway, I just remember looking around and being like, what the fuck? Like, I just want to go home, you know? Yeah. Cool. I can smoke inside. That's really the only side to this situation.

[00:35:32] Nina Endrst: Yeah.

[00:35:33] Anna Toonk: Like smoke inside your party, Alex, but it's. I've had a lot of time to think about failure in terms of friendship.

And I know we've obviously done a friendship episode and I've had some requests to do like part 2, 3, 4, but I saw a picture over the weekend of some of my friends from, you know, like high school and they were at a baby shower. And I was invited, but I didn't go for various reasons, but, and I really love her, the woman whose baby shower was, but I was looking at the picture and I was like, I have nothing in common with any of these people and that's okay.

It's I didn't fail at anything, but I remember being in these rooms and feeling so uncomfortable with myself because I was not supposed to be there. And not that I wasn't supposed to be there ever. They were, you know, It was absolutely a season in my life. And one that I wouldn't take back for anything, but was it meant to stay where they did?

They understand me? No. Like their worlds are very different and that's the way they want them to be. My perception of it for so long was like, if I don't do it the way they're doing it, I'm failing. And I was thinking about an ex boyfriend the other day. Like, can you imagine if I fucking married this guy?

Like, oh my God, like, I'd be pretending to be someone different and I would be miserable and I would be like living in a suburb. And that's just not me. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. It's just not me. And it's never been me. So. Is that a failure? Absolutely not. Because when I look at my life, there's obviously things I'm insecure about or would change or can't wait to improve upon.

But I know that I feel successful, you know?

[00:37:30] Nina Endrst: Yeah, I can't wait on

[00:37:35] Anna Toonk: my way. I'm like, I'm just, I'm working on it.

[00:37:40] Nina Endrst: So Palm to get that, you know, to get that have a

[00:37:42] Anna Toonk: list of projects.

[00:37:44] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Um, I think that, it's interesting how often when things are, you know, Like worthy than any of those people, you know, like, or you're just as good as any of them, but I find it so.

Interesting when things are not a fit that we internalize it as a failure or that there's something wrong with us. I was really, I was working at a television network and I was, I was struggling where I had been hired for like my technical knowledge. And yet they were fighting me tooth and nail about, you know, and I was just kind of like, I mean, it was almost as if an airline had hired me to build the planes.

And then when I kept saying like, I need tools, we're like, Hmm. Is there any way you could do it another way? Guys like c'mon, you know, like we're a television network. Like this is, you have to care about technical shit in there. Like not us, you know, I'm like, no. Okay. And they were really, you know, people would be like, listen, Kevin feels like you're being a little bit negatively.

He and, and I was like, cause I don't support his delusions. You know, of like, How things are going to make it to air. Like I like sleeping at night. I don't love having anxiety, you know, like I'm not gonna lie to these people. And then when it doesn't work, act surprised, you know, it's just saying like, this is crazy.

Like, it just felt. Crazy. And then they would be like, I can't believe you don't know PowerPoint. I'm like, I can't believe we're discussing this as a television network. Like, why is PowerPoint in this conversation? It was, it was insane. Anyway, I was talking to a good friend of mine. Who's also in television and was just like, Joe, like, you know, I'd like to succeed.

I like. Fast at things I do dah, dah, dah, dah. And like, I'm just getting clobbered here, you know? And I was really hung up on like right and wrong. I was like, they are wrong. Like, can't they see? Right. And like, yeah, they see what a gift Diane. And she was like, she's Australian. And she's like, just not a fit mate.

You know? And I was like, What, and she's like, you, you're just not a good fit for them. She's like, it's not that you're wrong or they're right. Or whatever. She's like, there's someone who they don't want problems. They just want you to did nod your head and, and do you know, like, she's like, they just want you to execute.

They don't want your knowledge. They don't really want your expertise. Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. She's like they might have even hired you just to be a fall person. She's like, it's just not. For the way you like to work and what you value and the way they're acting, it's just not a fit. And I was like, could you write that down?

I was like, yeah, we were like having dinner. And I was like, I almost can't. Come back. Did you ever like go to yoga class and probably not like knowing the way you are, but I'm like, I would make plans. We would like go to a yoga class and then to like go have brunch after. And so often, like with a really good class, like, you didn't really feel like talking afterwards.

And I was like, Oh, this is a bad plan. Or like to go to like a sunbath and then let's get dinner after it's like, no, you're stoned. Like you want to be in that zone. Like, you know, and I felt that way when she was like, she's not a fit, you know, that I was like, I feel like you've just said something really profound and life changing to me.

And I need to like, do that. Do we get the fruits, you know, with our muscles, like. Obviously and bride, I don't like all of it. I need all the bra. Thank you. I need all the vehicles for getting the broth mouth. So I find that so often, like, I will. I'm similar where I'll look at situations are, look at friend groups or I'll look at things, or ex-boyfriends like only have a few X's that I'm like, why didn't it work?

Like I get that, it didn't accept that much, but I'm like curious, like, was it this with this? Was it this with that? You know, like, I'm curious what the mix was, you know, that I'm like, so often it's like, It is that simple of, like, it just didn't fit, you know, but as we started to wrap up, like I would encourage anyone who's really hung up about failure to really flip it and ask yourself, like, how do you define success?

What is success to you? What would feel like a successful life or a successful career? Like, it's totally fine. If you want everyone to know your name and you want all the fancy clients or whatever. You're allowed to ask for her and want whatever you want for yourself. But if you're really afraid of it all the time, like it could be something else that you could support yourself differently where maybe like you're more afraid of like, not fitting in and like, are you going to fit in where you just have.

You want to, or whatever, like it could be something different that like could help you tend to yourself. Cause I think it's like this fear of failure is so socially accepted and people are talking about it all the time, but I don't know that that's, what's always the issue, you know? So. I would just, if you, if you think you have a fear of failure, I would examine what does success mean to you?

Number one.

[00:43:16] Anna Toonk: yeah, I would also say back to the flow, you know, how do you feel? You know, I'm obviously big on embodiment. If you. Think about the

[00:43:28] Nina Endrst: situations and

[00:43:30] Anna Toonk: I'm not suggesting that you run from things that make you uncomfortable all the time. That's not growth, but I am suggesting that if you sit with, okay. So when I, when I would think about going into that office, I would have anxiety, right?

Because I didn't want to be around those people. And I didn't want, even though I really thought I wanted to be in that business. I never felt good there. I felt sick there actually, even when I was doing my best work. So I had to eventually be really honest with myself about what my body was signaling to me day after day after day.

Right? Yeah. When you're in the flow, you're N you're often energized by what you're doing, and it's not saying you don't get tired, but right before we let soul go, I was so drained. And I just was like, something has to shift, you know, I don't know what it is, but this isn't, this isn't an even exchange of energy and it really has to be.

I think for it to, in some, you know, not all the time, things will hit the

[00:44:38] Nina Endrst: balance will tip. And I want to point out that you said energy, not right.

[00:44:42] Anna Toonk: I did say energy and money can be energy, you know, is energy, but it's not the only measure. The only measure. Absolutely not. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when I get off with Anna, when we stop recording, I feel like a pep in my step. You know, I go back into my house, I'm in a great mood. I'm like I learned this. I, you know, released that. I don't think. How it's going to be received. I truly don't and I'm not, not because I don't value every single one of you who are listening because I truly, truly do.

But if I thought about how every single person or anybody was going to receive it, I wouldn't open my

[00:45:20] Nina Endrst: mouth and yes, I would not

[00:45:23] Anna Toonk: open my mouth. I'd be terrified. I'd be like, oh, did I say that wrong? Oh, did I offend somebody? Or did I, that's not flow. That's. Stagnation that's being stuck in a box and nobody deserves to be, and you decide like where you want it roam and you decide what the landscape looks like and how you want to feel.

But you know, you have the ability to do that. And I will always acknowledge our privilege because it's really important and we'll do it over and over again. Some people don't have as many options, right. That is the truth. So if you don't, if your options are limited, There are still ways you can express yourself with your free time.

There are still relate. You choose your relationships, right? That's up to you and turn your attention there, right? And just notice who drains you. And it doesn't have to be their bad, but again

[00:46:18] Nina Endrst: might

[00:46:18] Anna Toonk: not be a good fit or you, if you leave a room feeling. Like shit, sit with that and ask yourself, like, how do I want to feel after these types of interactions?

How do I, what is my highest goal or vision for myself? And then how can I take small steps to support that and to actually align myself with that instead of kind of remaining passive, because a huge part of. Success is, you know, being disciplined and also acting and meeting the moment. We can't just expect things to fall into our laps.

Right. And, and failure is about like, okay, that didn't work, so I'm going to rest and then I'm going to move on. And, but it does require that action of actually picking yourself up and keep going, you know, to keep it going. So, yeah, that's what I would, I would add to that.

[00:47:17] Nina Endrst: Yeah, I think that backs it's super important.

And even in regards to privilege that, like, even if you don't have a lot of options, like, or you feel really stuck, like you still are worthy and deserving of whatever feels like success to you, you know? And I would just say, It could keep you more stuck by thinking it has to look a certain way of like, I make X, I get this, I get that.

And it's like, we always, no matter how broke we are, cause I've been there. We know how we want to feel. So if you can concentrate maybe on like, you know, a successful life to me would be less anxiety around money. Cool. Like, hold that vision for yourself. You know, like that'll, that'll free stuff up. I think it just helps because then you can imagine different solutions, like to Nina's point of link.

You know, like if you just dwell in a failure, if you just worry about the failure all the time, it's like, you're just going to go in a circle. Whereas if you can try to sort of go like, yeah, what's that about? And what would that, you know, like push yourself a little bit. I also think you just find other options that you're like, see the possibility.

Yeah. You're just like, oh, well I really like this. And I know so-and-so's cousin does that. I wonder if I could talk to him, like it just, you start fighting. And I'm not seeing like, oh my God, listen to this and you it'll change your life. You don't make the money, but I'm not not saying it either. But I do think that sometimes just like,

[00:48:52] Anna Toonk: I'm sorry, it's just thinking like, this is really one long ad for Suze Orman,

[00:48:57] Nina Endrst: but if you can just put a little crank and layer, you know, a little space to let you wiggle in, like, it'll it, it will help you, you know?

So.

[00:49:07] Anna Toonk: Yeah, you'll surprise yourself as well. I think with, you know, the expression, like the glasses are on your head on top of your head, that happens to me all the time, where even with recording stuff, for how to be human for the membership, I'm like, I can do this. Like I can do this. Oh my God. Of course I could do it all along, but I didn't.

I didn't see that possibility. And the last thing, you know, here, something opened up and it only opened up because I let something go and you let something go. And that's, that's the only reason we're here doing this.

[00:49:43] Nina Endrst: So fuck failure. Just failure bucket. It's the man. That's a lie.

[00:49:52] Anna Toonk: We love you all so much for thank you for listening.

Subscribe and review would be really, really appreciative. Also shout out to someone who reviewed us. We love

[00:50:06] Nina Endrst: no, no, you wouldn't not be able to. Okay. We

[00:50:10] Anna Toonk: don't know you. We really appreciate your review. That was five stars. But by accident, you gave us one. So if

[00:50:17] Nina Endrst: you go

[00:50:18] Anna Toonk: back in there and edit that,

[00:50:21] Nina Endrst: be awesome.

The five-star to counter, I don't know my counter.

[00:50:26] Anna Toonk: It never goes away and I'm not afraid of failing. I'm just want accuracy. There's a difference.

[00:50:32] Nina Endrst: I, yeah, I think that's being 4.9 now makes us look more legit versus your

[00:50:40] Anna Toonk: neighbor. Maybe he does a

[00:50:41] Nina Endrst: favor.

[00:50:44] Anna Toonk: Thank you so much to, yes. That person for, for teaching me a lesson,

[00:50:51] Nina Endrst: people

[00:50:57] Anna Toonk: that's all for today.

[00:50:58] Nina Endrst: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.