Welcome to Midlife with Brooke. I am your host, Brooke Oniki. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, a wife, mother, grandma, and a certified life coach. On this podcast, we talk about all things mothering, health and emotional wellbeing. I share practical tools and examples from my life and from the lives of my clients to help you navigate this new season of midlife. It can feel tricky and confusing and a little bit out of our comfort zone as our children grow up and they don't really need us in the same way. These concepts and principles have changed my life and I've watched them change the lives of my clients, and I hope that they can be helpful if there are things that you wanna change in your life. So let's get started. Hello and welcome to the podcast today. I am so excited to have Rochelle Heywood with us, she is a decluttering coach, and I met her a few years ago in a mastermind, and I love her work on Instagram. I love the challenges that she's given people to try to help them with their decluttering. And I personally have worked with clients who struggle with decluttering, and I feel like this particular group when we are empty nesters and our kids are leaving home and not knowing what to do with their stuff, and then our parents are either downsizing or passing away, and so we're dealing with their stuff. So it just seems like a really important time for us to really consider. How we can best declutter our own lives. And so I'm excited to have Rochelle here. So first of all, will you introduce yourself and then we'll just dive into my questions for you. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm excited to be here, Brooke. Um, so as you said, I'm Rochelle Haywood. I'm a decluttering coach and I help overwhelmed moms declutter their homes so that they can feel peace and live intentionally the lives that they want to be living. not having to manage stuff all of the time. I am a wife and a mom of six kids. And I just, I really love what I do. I really love helping women. get control of their lives because over time, as we all know, stuff accumulates and it feels like we are just buried by stuff and the stuff is controlling us, and we're serving it rather than the other way around. I am super excited and we talked about some questions and I just feel like they're so, so relevant to my audience. And so let's just dive in and at the end we'll talk to them about how they could work with you if they wanted one-to-one help with some of their, decluttering problems. So, first of all, for empty nesters decluttering often feels very emotional, not just like practical, right? I, it's hard for me to get rid of this stuff because. It's important. It belonged to my kids or, or these are their arts and crafts from when they were little, and I wanna remember those things. So why do you think our stuff brings up so much when we're in this particular phase of life? Well, there's a lot of things that play into it, especially in this phase of life, because not only have we had a lot of time to accumulate stuff that has carried our family from the origin of our family, right? It's all of our kids stuff. And then now at this stage of life, we're also, a lot of us are getting our parents stuff as well. And so we have our stuff, our kids stuff, we have our parents stuff, and it just feels like so much to manage and everything that we have. Sparks a memory, right? We, we, every time we see anything, our brain has a thought about it, right? We have to process it. And so oftentimes our stuff has all kinds of stories attached to it, right? So we see our kids old sports gear, and we remember that special time of their life and how amazing it was to watch them succeed and fail and try so hard and grow and develop in such amazing ways. And it feels like because that item sparked those memories, it feels like the memories are there inside the item, and it becomes emotional, right? We attach to the item emotionally when in reality when we can slow it down and really look at it, we can recognize No, no, no. That just sparked the memory, right? The memory doesn't live in the item. It's just, a prompt. And that's what we do at as we coach, right? Is be separate the emotions from the items and recognizing that they're not one and the same. Not saying that we don't wanna keep anything, we for sure do because some things are just special and we feel warm and love and gratitude when we see them, but we don't need to keep everything. Yeah. If we kept all their soccer cleats. Right. Right. And all their jerseys And yes, they're cute and Oh, I remember this one. And that was fun. And it is nostalgic. Yes. Right. But we can get overrun by those things. Absolutely. So interesting. So how do you think decluttering connects with our identity shifts in midlife? parenting has been such a central role. Right? And so maybe our identity is tied up in some of our stuff. A hundred percent. This is, I see this all the time. This is one of the number one hiccups that we come across as we are decluttering our stuff, right? We have been moms for so long and we've been the keeper of all the things. We've been the manager of all the stuff, the clothes, the toys, the school papers, the memories, right? and our identity for a lot of us was wrapped up in motherhood, which is wonderful and beautiful and great. But now that the kids are gone, now what? we have all of the stuff still here in our home to manage but the people aren't here. And so when we are able to let go of the stuff that has carried us through that beautiful journey of motherhood. Not that we all know motherhood is not over our role as their mother is never over, but it's not the daily ins and outs. Right. And when we're able to make space and honor that, that season was beautiful and wonderful and we have so many wonderful memories. But still being able to make space for what is to come in this next phase of life and who we want to become and what we want to be doing. Because when we were going through, when we were in the trenches of motherhood, we might have held onto some things like say you're a crafter, held on to crafting supplies. Because someday when the kids are grown, I'm gonna be able to sew again. Right. So we held onto all of our sewing stuff and now that we're here, do I wanna sew again? is this a part of my identity that I want to carry forward? Or is this just the person that I thought I was going to be like taking the time to make space for where we are now and what we want to become? Uh, that is so profound. I remember making the joke when my kids leave home. I don't wanna be at home ironing their old clothes, wishing they'd come to visit me. And of course I don't iron but just the idea of me just sitting in the past wishing it was still going on, that's not how I wanted to live my life. I wanna move forward and use my gifts to help and serve in other ways. I still wanna be a good mom, but I don't wanna follow them around wishing they'd need me, right? I wanna create a life that feels aligned with who God wants me to be and, and what I can do to contribute in other ways. And so I think the less attached I am to my stuff, the more space there is for me to create what I. Want going forward. And I have a lot of craft stuff. I never was crafty, but I had it for my kids and I've saved a lot of it for my grandkids. And I have a granddaughter now and she uses a lot of it. And so I don't feel too bad about still having some of that, but it does seem like when I do declutter, I get rid of more of it, you know? Yeah. But there's still, a big thing of crayons, and that's probably unnecessary. Do you need a whole plastic bin of crayons? or 30 glue sticks or mm-hmm. You know, and then you open 'em up and half of 'em are dry now, but you bought them because they were 99 cents because it was school supply time. Right. And so you're always trying to replenish, replenish. And then there comes a time where we don't need replenishing anymore. Nobody's using the glue sticks. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. And we want to have those things that are actually serving us. Like you're using these craft supplies for your grandkids. Absolutely. Keep 'em. They're serving you, they're serving that time with your grandchild. it's the things that, we held onto, because someday I'm, I'm pretty, I am very interested in watercoloring. So someday I want to learn how to watercolor, right? So I'm gonna hold onto all of my watercolor stuff that I've purchased in hopes that someday I'm gonna do this thing. Well then when we get there, what if we don't want to, we're putting a lot of pressure and burden on our future selves, right? That's unnecessary. If and when we get there and we wanna watercolor, then we'll go get it. So why did you buy the watercolors in the first place? Did you think you were gonna watercolor then? Or did you buy it in hopes that you were gonna watercolor in 20 years? Like, why do we have all these things that we never started? A lot of times we see something and like you said, it's either a good deal and we're like, oh yeah, this is an interest I have that I want to do someday, and so I'm gonna get it right now while it's on a good deal. And we're not thinking in 10, 20 years, we're thinking next month or when life slows down, but we all know that that's a joke. Or now with social media, it's so prevalent that like someone shows us how incredible this has been for their life and how it has blessed their life. And we're like, oh, I want that too. And all I have to do is click this link right here and it'll be on my front doorstep tomorrow. But if I don't buy it right now, then I'm probably gonna forget, or I won't be able to find this specific item that this woman said changed her life. So I've gotta get it now so that when I am ready for it, I'll have it. I have it. I did that this week. So my granddaughter turns four on. Thursday or Friday, and I saw this thing online for these felt crowns that you make, and I don't sew even, but it's like hand stitched and there are all these different patterns, and it was so cute and I thought, oh, she loves crowns. I'm gonna make that. Felt crowned for her. So I bought it, but then the, the upsell was Christmas ornaments and Christmas stockings, and it took me a while to reject it. I'm like, I could get all of those things. So it's just so funny for a person who never, ever sews for me all of a sudden to think, oh, I'm gonna make homemade Christmas ornaments and homemade stockings. Like, anyway, I talked myself down to just the crown, so I bought it and I printed out the template, but her birthday is on Friday now. I still don't have the belt. I don't, yeah. And so it's just so, so I don't have more clutter, but it's just interesting the urgency that you feel to buy and, yeah. So you still spent money and, and I. I do have a goal to do the crown still, but, but I'm super glad that I didn't buy the Christmas ornaments stockings. 'cause I thought settle down. Like, let's see if you make the crown first, right? And then if you do, then you might go, oh, that would be fun to do. Maybe a craft with her. 'cause she seems to be now more interested in doing crafts. But it is easy to just immediately feel like this irresistible urge to like, I must have this, or this is fun or unique or different. and there's that identity piece again. Right? Like, I'm gonna be the grandma that sows things for her grandkid. Right. We, we wannas with her. We're with her, right. Yeah. I'm gonna be the grandma that sows with her. Like, and they're beautiful stories, right? They're beautiful. I know. And it, and it looks so easy when they show you how they do it. You're like, oh, and it's so darling. And mine would turn out just like it. Yep. Yep. A hundred percent. Always. My, mine always looks like Pinterest. Never, never ever. And I still, I do think it's a fun thing to buy things but it's true that sometimes those end up just being the thing that you put in your craft room because you never really, yeah. I always hated release society craft nights. 'cause I would always over buy like, yeah, you know, we're gonna do a Christmas calendar. And I thought, oh well that's not very expensive. I'll do one for each of my siblings. Right. But I can't do it all in that night. Right. So then I'm taking 'em all these wooden blocks and, and if I cannot finish it in that very evening, it will never get finished. And so I learned I can only order enough that I could do it in two hours, otherwise I've thrown away so many things like that. Absolutely. And just paying really close attention to how we fill. That item, right? When it become, when it's something fun like these crowns for your granddaughter, like, oh, this is gonna be really fun. I'm gonna make this for her. And it'll be an expression of love, right? To when it becomes overwhelm to when it becomes another thing on our to-do list. And it can be on our to-do list, but how does it feel? Does it feel light and fun and exciting, or is it feeling overwhelming and like it's, um, just one more thing that we have to do. But doesn't it change, doesn't it start out by feeling fun and then it goes into overwhelm, right? But paying attention to that so that in our future purchasing right, we can be very aware, like you were saying, like, I know that I'm only gonna get done what I get done that night. Right? Right. And so I'm not gonna go any further than that because then it does become overwhelmed. Then it does become one more thing to do. Okay. Just watch your own patterns. Right? Watch your own patterns you can recognize. Mm-hmm. And like you did so brilliantly when they did the upsell for the crowns for the Christmas items. Right? Just acknowledging like, 'cause we're in that frame of mind at that moment. That's why there's upsells to take advantage of that identity that we've created for ourselves from the click of a button. Now I'm a grandma who sows, right? And they're like, oh, well grandma who sows? Don't you wanna sow these stockings for your grandkids? You know, you do, right? But we're not even secure in that identity yet. We haven't had time to form that identity. And so you were, brilliantly onto yourself and was like, let's take a minute and try that on and see if we like that, see if that's something we want to be, see if that's something we want to do. And then if it is, we can come back and then the brain's gonna fight us with, but it'll be more expensive when I come back. Right. Because they usually upsell you at a discount. Right. But recognizing that buying it now, it might cost you less, monetarily, but what is it costing you in your mind, in your space, in the overwhelm that you're feeling? Just being very onto ourselves and recognizing that so that we can buy better, like you did. Right? Because if I choose to buy the stockings, then the pressure is even greater. Mm-hmm. Like right now, I'm still concerned about the crown, but I would've felt like shame, like, and I, why did I buy the stockings It would've just turned into overwhelm very quickly. And so instead I can just be proud of myself. Like, I'm just gonna take this one step in that direction and see if that's, you know, something that I wanna do. Absolutely. I love it. So. Oh, thank you for all that good information. so this question kind of ties in with that. What's the difference between decluttering out of pressure versus decluttering out of intention? Great question. I love this question because this is how I got started in becoming a decluttering coach. when we declutter out of pressure, and some people might not even know what that means. Um, when we get to a point where everything just feels so overwhelming that we just can't take it anymore, our nervous system is just like firing, right? We're in our home and we don't want to be there because it just feels like too much. It feels like everything is yelling at us, and we go through and I call it like a rage declutter. We go through and just start tossing everything, Like everything's gotta go because I cannot feel this way anymore. that. It's one way to do it. And it is the way that I did it. The first time that I decluttered, because I was a young mom, it was 10 years ago, I just had my fifth baby and I just felt like everything was caving in on me and I couldn't take it anymore. And then I heard someone say that they got rid of their stuff and it fixed everything. And I'm like, done. Let's do it. What do I have to lose my stuff? Okay. It's like totally worth it. And I went through and I got rid of 70% of my stuff and it felt amazing. But then over the course of a year, it all came back and I was like, I'm overwhelmed again. What is happening? Why is my house screaming at me again? And so I, by, I knew the solution this time, right? So I went and I decluttered 70% of my stuff and it felt amazing again and again. Over the course of time it came back, but then I found, what does that mean? It came back. You rebought All the stuff. I was buried. No, I was just buried in stuff. Again, because we're always managing stuff, right? We live in our homes and. We bring things in, our kids bring things in, school, papers, toys. We have birthday parties. Christmas. Right? Right. Like gifts are given to us over time. You just keep accumulating things uhhuh. And so as the stuff was coming in, I didn't know what to do with it because I hadn't dealt with any of the mental blocks or emotional ties I had to my stuff when I decluttered. I just got rid of it. And so when another thing came in that was a gift from someone that I didn't actually want, I didn't know what to do with it, so I kept it. 'cause that was my default. And so my first, first thought was, oh, I realized, oh, I got rid of these knives and I needed them, so I had to buy 'em again. Oh yes. You're not talking about that. You're just talking about the natural process of acquiring more things over time, just because that's. What we do. That's just life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I wasn't going out and rebuying those specific things I gave away. Right. It was just life happening and me not knowing what to do with that stuff. And so my default was to just keep it. Because I think sometimes people feel like, what if I get rid of it and then I need it again? Yes. But you're saying no, that never happens. You got rid of 70% and then you were full again, and then you did 70% again. Yeah. And it does happen. And we, we will talk about that because yeah, we do get rid of stuff and then later we're like, Ooh, I shouldn't have gotten rid of that. I need it. But we always figure it out. Yeah. Always. Because there ever been a time that you've gotten rid of anything and you were like, oh, I actually needed that. And you didn't figure it out? No. Well, the only thing I can think of is something that was lost. Mm-hmm. So we, when we moved from California to Utah, we never found my husband's. Family, his dad's journals love letters that his mom and dad wrote to each other. Mm-hmm. And we, we, a bunch of people came over to help us move. And we do not know what happened to those. And we have been really heartsick about that. Yeah. Yeah. Because those are things that we could replace. Right. And that, that's hard. Like that's a part of your history and a part of your story that you want to hold onto and have, and things do get lost things, but they are things and not to negate that, that matter, it does matter. Our history does matter. Journals do matter. Right. But you also, all of you know that these love letters existed. Right. Right. And that love was shared. Love was exchanged and not, I, it would be nice to have the letters. Absolutely. It'd be fun to be able to read through them and reminisce. And, but you also have the knowledge that they existed, that love was shared. Yeah, that's a good way to think of it. But, and so I, there genuinely is not anything outside of like the necessities that we need for life that we won't figure out if we get rid of it. Okay. so you decluttered under pressure? Yes. So I decluttered under pressure and then as stuff came in, I didn't know what to do mm-hmm. With the stuff. So I held onto it and I was buried again. But then I found life coaching and I recognized that what was happening was I wasn't dealing with the mental and emotional attachments I had to my stuff. I was just so done that I was just getting rid of all of it. Grandma's, Afghan, she made it. Oh, you know, I have the thoughts that all of us have. Oh. But she made it. And getting rid of it feels like I'm just tossing grandma aside. Well, I can't take this anymore, so, oh, well get rid of it. Right. And so the next time that something came in that was supposed to be sentimental, I didn't know what to do with it. So I held onto it, But then when I recognized that I needed to pay attention to those things that my brain was telling me, those stories that it was telling me. But this was grandma's right? And that doesn't mean I needed to keep it, but just acknowledging that yes, this was grandma's and she made it for me and gave it to me because she loves me and I'm grateful for that. And grandma's not living in this Afghan, it's not current, it's not serving me, it's not serving the life that I want to live. And so I can let that go and let someone else enjoy it and know that that love and that connection with my grandma is still intact. And it doesn't mean that we're gonna get rid of it or we're gonna keep it. It just means that we're intentionally deciding with each item that's in our home if it is serving us. Right. So I can love grandma and not keep the things she gave to me. Absolutely. It doesn't change my feelings about her or the feelings I felt like she had for me. It's not showing I love her more if I hold onto a gift she gave me. Absolutely. And ho honestly, what happens a lot of times when we keep things out of guilt or out of obligation is it kind of taints it, right? Because if I have something that grandma gave me that I genuinely love and use and display. The feelings that I have when I see that and think of grandma are very different than the feelings that I have of something that was given to me that was grandma's that I don't like, you don't want, that doesn't serve me. That's in my space that I feel guilty getting rid of, but I feel obligated to keep it kind of taints that memory or connection To that loved one. So just being very, that is interesting. So if I can just realize like, my love for her has nothing to do with the belongings we exchanged, right. It has to do with the, the foundation, the relationship that we built, the conversations that we had, the time we spent together. It doesn't have anything to do with the Afghan Absolutely. Or the picture that I don't like so much, or. Yeah, and, and guess what takes away from those exchanges? That time, that presence, that love are things that we're constantly managing because we don't have time to be present. We don't feel like we can be fully present, especially as women. It affects us a lot more than it does men. But when we're in a room where things are constantly yelling at us like, you should have taken care of me by now. Why haven't you done this yet? You know, this is something that you need to remember to do later. We can't be fully present with the people that we love, the people that we're with, because we have so many other things fighting for our presence. Yeah. I always joke around like people come over and you're talking to them, but you're also trying to like wipe off the counter and Oh yes. While you're doing the dishes, like it's really hard to just stop what's going on and really look them in the eye and just spend time with them. 'cause you do feel this call to all these other things that if you don't do 'em, you know, when are you gonna get it done? So that is really interesting. Absolutely. And the less things that we have on our plate to do, the easier it is to find that time. Yeah. Well I noticed that like there have been some times when we've moved and we've moved out a lot of stuff from the house just to have it so that it can be staged. Yeah. To be sold or whatever. And you don't, you, you're like, oh, this is way easier to clean up when you don't have to wipe around so many things on your countertops or there's, nothing on the coffee table or Right. Like if there's just less things, there's just less work period. Yeah, absolutely. And why do we do that? Why do we stage our homes? Because those are the types of homes we want to live in, so we want somebody to come in and feel like I want to live here. Right. Right. So clean and streamlined and should Yeah. And we can set that up for ourselves. This is a home I want to live in. Yeah. So good. Okay. What would you suggest to parents about how they handle their adult children's belongings that are still in their house? The belongings that are still in the house? Right. So your kids leave and like you say, they leave a lot of their stuff here. So like, I have bedrooms for all my kids and they're still their bedrooms except for one child. We've kind of moved that into a different kind of room. But the rest of 'em, it's basically, you know, there's still a lot of their stuff is gone. they've taken a lot of it, but it, they still have stuff that belongs to them in the drawers and in the closets. And I. I have enough room that it doesn't bother me that much that they're there. But lots of people don't have that luxury or bugged by having stuff that they don't need anymore. So what would you recommend for people as far as getting rid of stuff that's, or what you do with their stuff that's still in the house? Well, it's gonna be different for everybody, right? Like you said, you have the space and so you don't mind having their stuff in their bedroom still. And there will be some people that don't have the space and don't want their kids to have, um, the stuff. So it will be individual, but communication is just so important. Absolutely. Don't go getting rid of your kids' stuff without their permission, right? That is not good for anyone's relationship. But just communicating with them what you are wanting to do with the space, why it is that you need them to come, go through their things. you don't want to be their storage unit, but you might be okay being a holding place. It's, it's totally individual. But maybe while they're in college, in a dorm, you don't mind holding onto some of their stuff. But then you can give them a physical boundary and say, Hey, I don't mind having some of your stuff here. You can, whatever you can fit in these two bins, I am happy to store for you, or whatever it is you want to give them whatever you can store on this shelf, or you can have this whole half of the closet to store all of your things, whatever works for you. And then let them decide. And honestly, it's helpful for them because it's a lot to transition from childhood to adulthood. Right. And all the different seasons that they're gonna be going through and not knowing what they want to keep or what's gonna be important for them to keep. Having the physical restraint kind of helps give them a boundary, a guideline as to, I can keep this much stuff and so this is important to me. This maybe isn't as important to me as this item is. Does that make sense? Um, yeah. And we have whittled things down over time. Like we have an office where they each had a, a couple of shelves of their stuff. And I cleaned the office out a month and a half ago or so, and I, I put all their belongings from their shelves each in a bag. And then when they came home for Christmas, I said, here's your bag. Now you go through and see. And if they wanted to keep it, then they could put it in where their other stuff is being stored. But I didn't want it anymore stuff in that room anymore. And we've done the same thing in their closets over time. So it has gone less and less, but they're also in different stages. Some, you know, my oldest son has his own home now, and so we don't really need to keep his stuff as much as my kids that are still in school who still haven't really land at anywhere. We have a daughter where we have wedding presents at our house still, that she's never lived in a, an apartment big enough yet. Yeah. To actually take all of these lovely things that people gave them for their wedding. so, in some cases you may be the holding space for a little bit. Yeah. And just letting 'em know, like, I'm willing to hold it for this period of time. Just having communication and constraints. Like, here's your physical constraint and here's your, like you have this much time and then we'll need to readdress it and maybe you'll wanna extend that. But just communication is key. And also recognizing. That they are living just fine without these things right now. These things are at your home and they're not needing them right now. And so chances are that almost all of it, they'll be okay without, not that you should go get rid of it, but helping them recognize like they don't want to their new life. Just like we don't want to bring all of the items that we have from those years when we were in full-time motherhood into this phase of our life. We wanna make space for that next phase. Mm-hmm. They probably don't wanna take all of those items either. They need to make space for what is to come. They don't wanna fill their new home with all of their past things. So they probably don't need to hold onto as much as we think we do. Yeah, that's really good to think about. They're doing just fine without these items right now. Yeah. So they maybe don't need any of those things either, but I've found they're actually less nostalgic about some of their things than I am. my kids all went on humanitarian trips and we got books that had pictures And I'm thinking, well I, that was kind of expensive that we bought that or whatever, you know? Or I wanna remember that 'cause that was a big deal. Yeah, and just being really careful to not push our own agenda on them as they go through their things. Like, you might not even be able to be in the room. I'm not saying you, but all of us moms, right? Because what if they're getting rid of something? They're like, oh, but remember that was a gift from so and so. Or, oh, but don't you wanna keep that because that was grandma's, or Oh, you know, we have all of our own thoughts and drama about it and we don't wanna keep it, but we want them to keep it. Right? All of my clients, every I across the board, every single one has had some form of, but what would my mom say if I got rid of it or my mom gave it to me and I'm the one that's supposed to care for this item and so I can't get rid of it. I'm like, well, could you give it to your mom? Well, she doesn't want it. Yeah, so interesting. But they're supposed to be the one to take care of it, right? So yeah, that, that. Idea keeps coming up of as if the, the memory lives in the thing. Yeah. Or the respect for your parent lives in that item. Right. So that is such, that's just something I've never really thought about before. I think that's a, that's a really light bulb aha for me. That that's Yeah. And that's the work to do is working through that and detaching that. Right. That is really, really good. Um, what are some practical first steps in dealing with like bedrooms and closets and storage areas that feel like are there space? So this is a really good question and I would love to pick the brains of a lot of moms that have, transitioned different rooms, in their home as their kids have left the nest. But most of us don't want our kids to feel like. Oh, you're gone now we're going to completely transform this space into something that I want that works for us. Right. But now it's the exercise room, right? Yeah. Like I was just waiting all these years for you to leave the nest so that I could have my exercise room maybe, and that's okay. But I, again, communication, just letting them know. I think it's important for our kids to know that they always have a place to land. Right. There is always a place for them in our home. Yeah. And, um, that's gonna look different for everyone, but maybe as you transition, it could go from being their bedroom to being a guest room. so this is interesting. So we have four kids. They each had their own bedroom. Our third daughter had the bedroom at the end of the hallway, so it was always the coldest. It's above the garage. So it was always the coldest. She had a single bed instead of a. Like we had a queen bed for the other kids, and her bedroom in the beginning had bunk beds that she shared with her little sister. And then when we moved her little sister out, we got a bed for my mother-in-law. So it was like a full, and so Megan was the only one who just slept in a twin bed clear until she graduated from high school in the coldest bedroom. So it feels like, did we not love her? Like, what were we doing? Why did she get all the bad wrap? Even though her room is a good size and it was cute. we painted it like she wanted. and a really cute bedspread. And I think she liked her room just fine. But that's the one we've taken because now she's married, she doesn't, there's no reason to have a twin bed in there. And now when my granddaughter comes, we have just a mattress down on the floor for her so that she can sleep in there. And, and we've had space heaters and things to make sure it's nice and and warm. But I have some guilt attached to the fact that now Megan doesn't have a bedroom and it was the worst bedroom the whole time. That somehow she was shafted. And so then when she comes home, I try to feel better about it that like, well it is the worst bedroom, so now, if she comes home and other kids aren't here, then we put her in one of the other kids' rooms. But I have had some emotional issues with, with moving that. And all her stuff is stored in there. 'cause she's the one who can't. Take all of her wedding stuff and things like that. So it still feels, you know, technically like it's her room. Mm-hmm. But she can't go sleep there. And, and I have had some, I don't know, feelings, like guilt feelings about that. So that's interesting that you see, isn't that interesting? The way that our, the stories that we have in our head narrate how we feel as we know. Right. Like our thoughts create our feelings. Because as you were telling me about this room, as you were describing it before you to told me how you felt about it, I was like, oh, so she got the best room in the house is what I was thinking, because you're supposed to be cold at night. It used to sleep better when it's cold. And so in our house, whoever has the coldest room is the luckiest one. Because you live in Arizona? Yeah. 'cause we live in Arizona. Yes. But we're in our house. All the rooms are cold, but ours is though Ice cold cruise is freezing. So it's just funny the way that we can. Twist the right, the way that we interpret the facts are totally gonna change the way that we think about it, or we feel about it. Because I legit was thinking, oh, she had the best room in the house, and you're like, she had the worst room. That is funny. And two summers, she and her husband have lived with us in the summertime and they've slept downstairs in another bedroom that's very comfortable for them. And I feel like they feel totally at home here. And if I asked her, do you feel you were more neglected than the other children because of the, the bedroom you had? I don't know that she would feel that way, but I have had some feelings about that. Yeah. I think just being very honest with ourselves and what are we wanting from our home? What are we wanting it? To be for us the people that are still here and what are we wanting it to be for our kids when they come home, do we want them to be able to go back to their original bedroom that's still in pristine condition, like it's a museum and we just hold on to that space for them and it doesn't serve us in any way, but we're still managing it. 'cause we still, I mean, you don't have to do much, but on occasion you have to go in there and, you know, dust, vacuum, whatever. But, um, but it's not serving you. You are heating and cooling that area, you know, but it's not allowing you to utilize it in ways that would be helpful to you. Yeah, yeah. So true. Because you also have moved into a different phase of life as they have. And utilizing that space in a way that serves you and who is currently living there is a beautiful thing. Like that's what it's there for. It's not there to be a museum to the past. We want our kids to have a safe landing in our home where they feel welcome, they feel loved, they feel adored. You can come, you can stay. We want you to, it might not be in the same bedroom that you slept in as a child, but there is space for you. Right? And when we've created that space, we can be more present and we can make them actually feel that way when they come home because we've created that space in ourselves and in our lives. So maybe we mistake nostalgia for love. Yes. Yes. It almost, we like to tell ourselves, and we don't mean to, but this is what our brain feeds us. If I hold onto their things, I'm proving that I love them. And is that true? This is just gold Because if you think about your own relationship with your own parents, right? The them holding on to all of your things, would that have proven their love to you or was it the time they spent with you? Was it the presence they had with you was like the connection, if anything? I'd probably have some judgment like why are you still hanging onto this? Like, yeah, it doesn't matter 'cause it's burdening you, right? Mom is queen, she's queen of getting ready, rid of stuff. And so I haven't had to worry about that. But I have friends who have parents who have held on to things and now it's become a burden for them because their parents are aging and now they have to deal with all of their parents' stuff. And so I think that's a fascinating. Mind shift to think just 'cause it's nostalgic doesn't mean it's love. Absolutely. And love and making someone feel welcomed and, and that you're glad that they're there has nothing to do with whether or not you've kept everything in their bedroom completely intact. Absolutely. And what happens a lot of times with my clients is their parents will hold onto things to prove their love. Like they're not thinking that that's why they're doing it, but Right. Like I, hold on. I held onto your first haircut, like the little lock of hair from your first haircut because I love you so much. I held onto your baby clothes because I just love you. I hold onto these toys 'cause they were your favorite and your kids might wanna play with them someday and then when they gift you this, all of these boxes of things, my clients are like, I don't know what to do with it, but I don't want it. And I feel guilty getting rid of it because my parents have managed it for 50 years. Right. And so I can't get rid of this hair that what am I gonna do with it? But it's been preserved for 50 years. This is an artifact now. I can't just throw it in the trash. Right. You know? I mean you can, but it's hard. It makes it harder because it's been saved for so long and so much intention has gone into it in the guise of love that we feel bad getting rid of it. Right. So what do you tell them when they say, my parents brought over bins and bins of my stuff and I don't want it and I feel guilty getting rid of it. What do you We go through the same questions that we do with everything else in the house. I always, they, these questions work without fail. Can I comfortably live without it? If I can, you could get rid of it. Or if you could, and you're like, yes I could, but I don't want to. 'cause I love it. Would I buy it again today? And with items like that that are however many years old, you probably can't buy it again today, but if you got rid of it and you knew who inherited it, right? If you gave it away and you knew who ended up with it, would you go buy it from them? Would you be willing to pay money to have that back? And if you would, then you should keep it. You should keep it. And if you wouldn't, you should give it. And if you wouldn't, it, it can go. So say those two questions once more. Um, can I comfortably live without it? Not, can I live without it? We can live without just about everything except for the necessities. Right? Right. But can I comfortably live without it? Because we want to create an environment that is comfortable and easy and serves the life that we are currently living. And if the answer is yes, it can either go, or if it's yes, but I don't want to live without it, then would I buy it again today? Okay. And if you don't wanna live without it, it would seem like most likely the answer would be yes, I would buy it again. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. Those are really good things to think about. It made me think about clothes. I have a lot of clothes that I'm like, I can't get rid of this. 'cause I paid a lot for it and I haven't used it enough yet, or I don't wear it, or I like it, but it's fancy and so I don't wear it very often. Right. I have done some decluttering of my clothes and I've started thinking I will buy things that I really, really like. Like when I see it, I'm like, I love that. If I only kind of like it or think, well it's a good deal. Like those are good reasons to not get it. Yeah. So I feel like I've gotten better at that, but I still know I'm holding onto some clothes that I don't really need because. Anyway, I just find it fascinating that it's hard to get rid of things that you know how much you spent for them so we're actually paying for it even more paid for it in money. You got it. And now I'm paying it for it in emotional energy or space. Yeah. So interesting. And we do, we pay for it every time we with clothes, every time we walk into our closet because our clothes have a lot of things to say to us like, you need to lose weight. Right. Or, um, this, like, this used to look better on you, or you're not very good at putting outfits together. Or like, they have all kinds of things that they say to us. And when it's such a gift, would we curate it so that when we lock it, walk into our closet? It's exciting, it's fun to get dressed. We feel confident. We feel good in, in our own skin, in our clothes because everything in there is something that we love and want to put on and it doesn't have to be that many things. Right. I read this book last year, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer. It's an excellent book, but he said, I just have a few outfits. He, first, he went down to seven outfits and then he went down to even less like an every other day plan. 'cause he said, I want things that are responsibly sourced. I don't wanna buy things that people worked in sweat shops to make for me. Right. So he has some good leather shoes that he, you know, like maybe two pairs of shoes and two or three pairs of pants, and then a couple of sweaters and tops that he feels comfortable in. That he likes, how he looks in those, and then he got rid of the rest of his clothes. And that just seems so great to me. I'm like, I love that idea, but there's part of me that's like, I need some summer dresses and some winter dress. Right? Like I maybe couldn't go down to two dresses, but I could probably go down to five or six. Mm-hmm. Well, and studies show that we only wear 20% of what's in our closet. Isn't that fascinating? No. We keep it there so that we feel like we have options. That's what I always get is if I get rid of it and I won't have anything left to wear and I'm like, but you're not wearing it anyway. So getting rid of it, you're wearing those same five or six things over and over again. 'cause those are the ones that you feel best in. Right? Absolutely. If we're honest with ourselves, we don't feel as great in that, but, but we think, well, maybe I'll buy something that will match it better and then I will wear it. Or, and sometimes that does happen. Yes, it does. But it's funny how your brain wants to fight with you about things like, but what about this? And what about that? Right. And so it just keeps us in this Yeah. Decisive state. Yep. And instead we end up going through all of these clothes that we never wear and we just have to make more and more decisions every day because we have to decide again today. I'm not gonna wear that still. That's still not the one I'm gonna reach for today. And we're already making enough decisions. We don't need to have more. So how often do you go through your closet? So what I like to tell people that have a really hard time know, knowing what they actually wear and what they don't is, I'm sure you've heard it before, the hanger trick. Yes. Where you flip your hangers around and then at the beginning of a season, uhhuh, and then when you wear it, you flip it back around the right way. that way at the end of the season when it's time to move, you know, say spring clothes in and winter clothes out, you can see, oh, I actually didn't wear that this season. And if you didn't wear it this season, chances are really good that you're never gonna need it or want it. Right. And you can easily let it go. At the changing of the seasons is the time that I like to go through my closet, so I just keep all my clothes in my closet all the time. I don't have a whole bunch of clothes, but, but I have done the turning of the hangers before, so I think maybe you just start like. If you did it in January, next January, let's look. Yep. And see what you never turned around. Yep. And then you'll know if I haven't worn it in a year, chances are really good that you're not gonna wanna wear it later. Right. Yeah. So, so good. Um, what are some of the challenges that you see for people who've lived in the same house for 20 or 30 or 40 years? Like what, what are some of the struggles you have if you've been in a space for a long time? Layers. You have layers and layers of things. And rooms are typically performing a lot of different functions. Right. The office that used to be a bedroom that then was transitioned into an exercise room that then was transitioned into a storage room, has a little bit of all of that still left in it. Right. Because when it transitioned. Oftentimes not. Like, it was like, well, we're just gonna leave these few things in here because it works, and then transition the use of the space into something else. And so it just ends up layer upon layer upon layer of different things in each room. And so every room has multiple responsibilities and that's a lot to juggle. That's so funny. 'cause on the, in this room, the craft stuff is all here on the side. Yeah. 'cause after it was a bedroom, then it was the craft room, then it became my office. Yeah. I'm like, ding, ding, ding. I'm in a room like that right now. Yeah. And it's not wrong. It's not bad. It's just, um, when you do go through and you're trying to curate your space so that it will work for you and the life that you're currently living today, you do want to give it a job. And if it needs to have two jobs, that's okay. Your office can hold the craft supplies. It's fine. Right? It's working for you. But giving each room a job, like this is what we are using this space for intentionally, and making sure that everything in that room serves that purpose. So if I wanted the crafts, but I didn't really want him in this room 'cause I wanted this to just be an office. my first thought is, well, I, I don't have another room that I can make into a craft room. So what do you do when can you make something? A craft room slash exercise room slash Yep, yep. And yeah, that's what it, that's what I mean, like in your office. Totally fine. It's an office and it's the craft room. It's where we store the craft supplies. That is what has this space has been designated for. Okay. It can have more than one job, but when it ends up with so many jobs that nobody knows what actually goes in that room or what belongs in that room, that's where the problem lies. Gotcha. Okay. If, when things don't have a home, I gotcha. Okay. But that, I love that idea of just really be intentional about what is the purpose of this room. Yeah. And make sure every room has a designated purpose, so it's not just a like a, a room that's a junk drawer. Yeah. Yep. And then, like you were saying, the homes that have accumulated stuff over the last 20, 30, 40, 50 years, just remembering, like we talked about earlier, like the memories don't live in the stuff. We don't have to hold on to the things that are not serving the life we're living now in order to honor and remember the beautiful full life that we've lived in the past. Oh, so, so good. Okay, so if someone is just feeling overwhelmed, then just by the sheer volume of things, where would you suggest they start? Because if there are all these layers and you feel this desire to declutter, where do you start? Start small. Start. So, so, so small. We all want to like, do an overhaul of our house. Like, I'm gonna take this weekend off and I'm gonna go through everything in the house and I'm gonna declutter and it's gonna be amazing. But that's when we get into, like we were talking about earlier, the, um, decluttering that doesn't last because we're not taking the time to slow it down and recognize how we accumulated the clutter in the first place. Why we have this item, why we haven't let it go, you know, if we do it in a weekend. The chances are very, very high that will come back. And so just starting very small, start with having a place in your home. I call it my donation station. I just have a simple box. You know when Amazon delivers something and it's a good size box, I take the box and I put it in my donation station. And as you're going about your everyday life, just noticing, just being aware of as you're cooking in the kitchen and you grab a spatula and you see that you have five, just questioning, do I need five spatulas? And making an intentional decision about, no, I, you know, I probably don't need five, I want two, or I want one. You know, whatever works for you in your life. And putting those immediately in the donation station so you don't ever have to decide about it again. Because oftentimes we'll think about it and then be like, oh yeah, I'm going to go through this drawer later, and then we have to do it again. Just do it right then. Go put 'em in the donation station. Yeah, that, that's rough for me with kitchen things. 'cause often when a lot of people are there, like I do need all of those spatulas. Or I have two egg slicers and I definitely prefer one over the other. But there are times when people are here where I need one for olives and I need one for eggs and I, right. And so I wanna use both of those and so I continue to keep them even though I clearly prefer one over the other. Mm-hmm. And so I guess you decide, is it worth it to keep more for those very few occasions when you need more? Or do you decide that I like it to be uncluttered enough that I'm like, well, you'll have to wait for the egg slicer. Maybe you'll have to slice that by hand or. And just questioning is this helping me in my everyday life? Because depending on how often, maybe you have gatherings all the time and you need two egg slicers all the time, or maybe when you need the second egg slicer and you no longer have it, a simple knife will do. Is it a little bit less convenient? Yeah. or a few more seconds cutting up the egg worth the time that it takes away from you as you're doing your everyday duties in the kitchen. Right. Okay. That's great. So just start small with a little decluttering station and just notice things and start putting those things away. Do you ever just say to someone like, start with a drawer or something like that, or, I like to start in the bathroom because Not very many of us have very many sentimental things in the bathroom. Right. And so it tends to be a lot easier place to start because it's just stuff, there's not a lot of, it was a gift. It was, you know, the things that come up the most in the bathroom is waste. Right? I, I don't want to be wasteful. And that is real. That is something that we deal with. That's something that our brain will feed us. But recognizing, again, going back to the two questions, could I comfortably live without it? And would I buy it again today? And just getting our, wow. There's so many things in the bathroom, right? We have a whole bin of fingernail polish. Yep. And I don't even paint my fingernails, right? Yeah. So it's just my kids. Old fingernail polish, but my granddaughter likes to go through it. Right. But do, it's like the crayons. Do I need a whole, do you need a whole bin? Yeah. Or do you need a couple colors? Some, right. Some of 'em aren't even, yeah. Usable. Yeah. Like, do I just pick a few colors that my granddaughter likes and having those on hand, because honestly, when we have a whole bucket of them, it can feel overwhelming, especially for little, little people. Right. There's too many options. It's overwhelming. And it, like n polish is such a little thing that it wouldn't be a big deal for your granddaughter to have to deal through, dig through the nail polish. Right. But it is, it's a lot of choices. And just giving her a couple choices might be more freeing for her and more fun for her too. Yeah. Oh, this is so, so good. Um, oh, how do you help clients get past the mindset of, I might need this someday? Acknowledging that you will not always, but there will be times that you will get rid of something and you might need it someday. And it's okay. You will figure it out like we talked about. Um, there is not anything outside of like the basic necessities that we need. Like food. We wanna have some food storage, right? But food, clothing, roof over our heads, but everything else, we're gonna figure it out. There is nothing that you have ever come across that you're like, oh, I got rid of that and now I need it. And you didn't figure it out. Is it maybe as ideal as it would've been, maybe not. Do you have to deal with some disappointment Maybe, but what is the disappointment that you're dealing with right now in managing so much stuff? Right. So it's a little bit like there's something that feels really powerful in telling someone how you're feeling when you're mad at them. Mm-hmm. But then the aftermath of that is having to apologize and, and feeling bad about overreacting. Right. So that powerful moment of really letting them have it right, you have one moment that feels really, really good. I guess I like to call it the illusion of power. 'cause in the moment when you're telling them, you feel powerful and strong, but the aftermath is so painful and so it seems like it's a similar thing that Yes. There would be that moment where like, I have that thing and that would feel really good, but if I keep everything because I might need it, then the aftermath of that is dealing with all this stuff in your house that, that you have to manage. And so is it really worth it for that one moment of I have that one thing. Yep. And when And if you need it, will you be able to find it? Yeah. Buried in all of that stuff? Or is it gonna be easier to just go buy it again? And that's what we off, I see it all the time. That's what we usually do, is it's like, ah, I know I have it somewhere, but I don't know where I'm just gonna go buy it again. Right. And now we don't just have the one, now we have two. Now we have two. Right. Or we forget that we had it and so we buy it and bring another one in. Right. Because there's just too much stuff We, we don't know what we have. Right. We can only manage so much stuff. But yeah. So when I look at that and I think I might need that someday, what can I tell myself? just having an abundant mindset, if I do in the future, need that I will have the ability to get it. Excellent. I used to think that when we got married, we didn't get China. 'cause back in the day that was a big deal Yeah. For people to get China. And I said to my husband, I think if we ever are in a position that we need China, we'll probably be able to buy it. Yeah, absolutely. So let's get plates we really like that we could use all the time. Yep. So that's what we did. And I felt like I knew people who had China and they were like, I never use it and or we use it once a year and then they're having to store it all and now that's not, they feel guilty getting rid of it because it's sentimental and Right. Yeah. But that's a fascinating thing that we have traditions even. Yeah. That don't serve as a culture. Like that was a really. You know, in days past that was part of getting married, that you picked out China and a silverware pattern and those kinds of things. So it's, it's fascinating. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. Okay. what's your approach on sentimental items like artwork, old letters, photos, keepsakes, recognizing that less is more, because when we keep all of it, we have to store it somewhere, and so oftentimes it goes into a box and gets put in a closet or somewhere where we're not readily able to access it. And so it's not serving us in any way. But when we curate it to the things that really matter to us, the things that we love, we might wanna put it on display, or we might just want to have it in an area where we can visit it and look at it every so often. Right. But. When you have so much stuff, nothing can shine, it just kind of dilutes everything. Have you ever look, looked through your, camera roll and you've taken like 10 pictures of the same thing Right. And you go through and you're like, okay, I should probably delete some of 'em. You're like, oh, but her face is a little bit cuter in this one and his face is a little bit cuter in this one. So I've gotta keep both of 'em because they're just different enough. Right. But if we curate it down to one picture, it allows it to really shine. Right? Right. Instead of it just being like, oh, I have all these pictures. 'cause it feels like a burden when you have all the pictures. 'cause a decision hasn't been made. Mm-hmm. But when you have it down to one, it allows it to really shine. And maybe it's not the, maybe we kept the one where her face was so cute and we know that his face could have been cuter in the picture 'cause it wasn't the next one. But it's okay. We have enough to represent what we wanted that photo to represent. We allow it to shine. Same thing with our sentimental items. When we can curate it down to the things that really matter to us, the things that when we see it, we feel warm, we feel love, we feel connection. We can let those really shine in our lives. How can you build decluttering into your lives as an ongoing practice rather than a one time? Like, do you declutter every week, every day? What do, how do you do it in an ongoing way? Just noticing, just being very aware as you go about your daily life. Right? And when you haven't decluttered yet. Setting aside just small chunks of time and. If you have five minutes, do five minutes, put it in your calendar, make it so that this is, it becomes like brushing your teeth. we don't think the five minutes is gonna do anything. It does. I would encourage you to set a timer and see how much you can get done in five minutes. You will be amazed. Our brain wants to tell us, I won't get anything done, but you will. And it adds up fast. So just setting aside five minutes a day, 10 minutes, 15, whatever you have. Mm-hmm. But make it small and doable and incorporate that into just everyday life When you were saying that, I took out 70% and then pretty soon it was all back again. Mm-hmm. So now when things come into your house, do you stop 'em at the door and try to discern, like, do I want this? Or do they run its course? Like, for instance, gifts that your kids get might seem useful for a little while, and then they lose their purpose pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. Like, so how do you do it differently so that you're not trying to get rid of 70% of your stuff every year or two? Yeah. So my son just had a birthday party. Good, good, uh, analogy. And he got a lot of gifts. Right. And I know that some of those gifts he's not going to be interested in them for the long haul. But I also don't want to turn him into someone who feels like he has to hoard his things. Right. Because mom might get rid of them. Right. And so I want him to be able to enjoy that. I want him to be able to enjoy the gifts. And so, yeah, he has more toys out right now than he typically does because he just received a bunch of gifts for his birthday and I'm letting him play with them. Until he gets bored of them. And then we have a conversation about it. Do you still want this? Do you still play with it? And sometimes he'll say, yes, and I have a whole toy system that probably isn't applicable to uhhuh, um, this podcast. But, sometimes it's a really good learning opportunity for our kids as well because it's teaching them that, yeah, I don't love this or need this anymore and so I'm gonna let someone else have it. so as things come in, just being very, um, aware of where is this going to go? It needs a home. Just giving everything in your home, its own home. And if it doesn't have a home but it's something that you want, then you go find a home for it. And maybe you want it more than something else and it can replace that. Okay. That's great. what advice do you have for, a person whose spouse isn't as interested in decluttering as you are or does, has things they wanna hold onto that you feel like aren't worth holding onto? Leave it alone. We care about the relationship, not the stuff. Right? You lead by example, just declutter your own stuff. You don't want the people in your home to feel like mom might come through or, you know, my wife might come through and take it, and I, I won't have any say in this, right? This is their home too. And so start with yourself, declutter your own things. And 90% of the time, the people in our home follow suit because they see how much more, relaxed we are, how much easier things have become for us. And they want that for themselves too. And so naturally they start recognizing, oh, I probably don't need, this. Right? without us having to be the ones to tell them to do it, just lead by example. Excellent. Such good, good counsel. I think one of the other things that happens to me is there's a lot of tied to like, if I spent money on it, like there are things that I hold onto instead of just deciding It wasn't what I expected or I didn't use it as much as I thought. Like just take it as a lesson instead of causing yourself more pain by keeping it longer. I think that's fascinating that our brains tell us if we kept it longer than, it's a little bit like taking your kids to an amusement park and everybody's tired and crying and you're making them go on more rides 'cause they didn't get their money's worth. Yes. Right. Like, okay, well so far if I calculate it, the rides are still $15 a piece and I'm not taking you home. If the rides were $15 a piece, go on more rides. Right? And everybody's crying and sad and instead of just thinking, what if we could just enjoy the rides that we went on and think about that as a really fun day, but instead we're calculating the cost of it and equating worth to. How much each ride cost rather than just the whole experience overall. Right. We paid for the experience to be together as a family, to laugh together, to talk together, to be in the sunshine. You know, that's what we paid for. We didn't pay for, you know, it was a hundred dollars and we've only gone on six rides. What a waste of money, right? We like to, to add monetary value to it, but instead it puts pressure on the experience that it, it wasn't fun enough because we didn't achieve enough or, or do enough. And so I think we do the same thing with our stuff sometimes. Like absolutely put more pressure on it to somehow serve, serve us better than it has. And so if it hasn't served us well enough, I have to keep it until it does, and it's just never gonna have the power to do that. Absolutely. And now it's taking more from us, right? It's already cost us monetarily and now it's costing us in all kinds of other ways, our space, our time, our energy, our mental capacity. what if we thought we were buying an item and really we were buying information on how this item doesn't actually serve me in my house. And now I know. And now I know. I thought, I know I never have to buy it again. Right? Once we took our kids to, um, SeaWorld in San Diego and someone had told us, oh, buy the food. Like there's a, you can buy an all, you can eat food pass, so it's just a wristband. And you can eat in all of the restaurants. And I'm sure that would've been great if it were the summertime and you could have gone in at seven in the morning and stayed till midnight. But we went in the spring and it didn't open till like 10:00 AM and it closed at five. So we got the wristbands, we'd already eaten breakfast, but in the minute we got in there, we started pushing like, let's go eat something. Right? We go on a ride, now we need to eat something. And it closed like at five. We gotta have dinner here before we leave because we paid a lot of money for those. And so the kids were like, why are we eating so much? Like, because we're gonna get our moneys out worth out of that, right? Instead of just recognizing, oh, we made a mistake. Yeah, don't buy the all you can eat wristbands when the amusement park is only open for really limited hours. Like, yes, bad choice on our part, but instead we just pushed, yeah, pushed it more because we wanted to make sure we were getting our money's worth. So that's just ended up being this big family joke. But I think we can do that in all kinds of ways in our lives instead of just Absolutely. See it as a lesson learned and let go of it. Yep. And that's what we do, right? We try and get our money's worth and we beat ourselves up and we we're afraid of how it's gonna make us feel. Right. So we actually makes us feel worse to keep it. Exactly. Exactly. So Fascinat the irony. Fascinating. Okay, Rachelle, that was so amazing and I'm so thankful for your time and I think it will be so helpful for my audience. So tell me, how can people find you? How can they get help from you? I am most active on Instagram right now. Um, my handle is Rochelle Haywood coaching. Um, that's probably the easiest place to find me. My website is currently under construction, so that's not a good place to go. But yeah, if you go to Rochelle Haywood coaching on Instagram then, and then if they wanted to work with you, like you people hire you as a coach just for them privately, right? Absolutely. So would they just DM you there on Instagram or, yep. They can DM me there on Instagram or you can email me at hello@rochellehaywood.com and I'd be happy to tell you more about my program. I have a 12 week program where we come up with a customized plan for you and your home and get, get on weekly coaching calls so that we can detach like we talked about a little bit, the mental and emotional ties that you have to your stuff so that the clutter doesn't come back. Excellent. Thank you so much. This was so, yeah. Thank you Brooke. This was so fun. So fun. Alright, thanks so much. if you find the podcast helpful, I hope you'll share it with someone else or rate and review the podcast so more people can find it. Have a good week. We'll see you next time.