Richard Series - Clarity of Values

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season six, episode three of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Richard: Because it can get a little bit complicated. I might look at someone else and think I know what their values are, but I don't. I only know what their behavior is.

[00:00:16] They might use different words to describe their values. They might not be bringing their values to life in the way that I would, and unless they sit me down and take me through a list and say, this is what matters to me in life, I'll never know. And so it can be a real distractor. Instead focusing on my values and me bringing them to life, I then don't have to expect them of other people.

[00:00:38] I don't have to see our other people being consistent. It's just, am I doing my bit? Am I staying in my lane and focusing on my behavior? Because that's, that's what I've got control over. I can't control yours. I can't control hers.

[00:00:52] Ross: In this episode, I continue my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon that started way back in season five. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of act and psychological flexibility.

[00:01:04] the ingredients we're bringing to People Soup in this episode are personal values and our exploration is thorough and deep. It's like everything you wanted to know about personal values but were afraid to ask.

[00:01:16] We cover what they are, what they're not, and how we can clarify our values, bring them to life, and reconnect with them when we feel we've gone adrift.

[00:01:24] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Peasoopers, thanks for tuning in. We love it that you're part of our community. So let's crack on.

[00:01:51] For now, get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Richard McKinnon. [00:02:00]

[00:02:02] So what are we going to cover in this episode? Well, we're going to look at the importance of values in being the kind of person we want to be and how those values relate to the other skills in the ACT model. So Richard, maybe if we just help position people, how does this relate to our last episode?

[00:02:21] Richard: I think this is really important to do that linking for people because a point you made in a previous episode was that it's not helpful just to focus on one of these skills. We need to see them. So last time we spoke about our capacity to step back from our thoughts and see them for what they actually are, just thoughts.

[00:02:39] Um, but if we're not going to rely on random volatile thoughts and emotions to guide our behavior, what could we use instead? And that's the link I'd like to make that if we're practicing diffusion, we can kind of fill that gap to fuel our decision making with our values. But we need to know what they are.

[00:02:58] So that's what we're going to talk about today.

[00:03:00] Ross: Lovely. So let's have a go at explaining what do we mean by values? Because I think it's a word that's bandied around quite a lot in the workplace. And we are specifically talking about personal values, our own values. let me have a go at starting this one off, Richard. I think they're qualities of behavior that we want to bring to life and sort of be known for. They're, they're, they're what we want to do, not how we want to feel. I think that's really important. What else would you say values are, personal values, Richard?

[00:03:34] Richard: I often help my clients understand what they are by saying what they're not. So, values could be anything except goals. Because goals are achievable, uh, or not, but they are kind of a binary. You achieve the goal or you don't. With our values, there are things that stay with us. And we're not aiming to tick a box next to them and say it's done.

[00:03:56] It's more a case of a guiding principle that we're [00:04:00] going to have with us. Forever, and that can sometimes shed a little light on it because it's a concept you can't pick up your values. You can't point at them in front of you. So how do we understand what they are? They're anything but they're not goals and they're flexible so they're not rules to follow

[00:04:17] Ross: And you know what we, when you say they're not goals, I, I so agree. And do you think as, as people in the workplace, we can become over focused on goals sometimes?

[00:04:27] Richard: Yes more than sometimes Um, and actually the workplace can be problematic for that because a lot of our action a lot of our focus might be You A function of the goals that we have been set, but it can easily spill over into, I'm pointing out the window now, into the outside world where, um, success and achievement of things can be really highly valued in society.

[00:04:53] So we feel sometimes I should have another goal or more goals. Now I had a great chat about this very topic with a good friend, Dr. Rachel skews a few episodes ago on my podcast. Um, my pocket psych where, yeah, we did talk about the downside of that, but I think one of the things I'd echo and, and really reiterate here is that a, a kind of a relentless focus on goals anchors our attention in the future.

[00:05:21] And that can be a real challenge. It takes us away from now and it sort of says, when I get there, I'll have X, I'll feel Y, I'll be whatever, rather than in this moment. How would I like to be? And how would I like that to guide my behavior? And I think, you know, goals aren't intrinsically bad. Definitely not saying that.

[00:05:46] But if we're not mindful or intentional about goal setting and the pursuit of goals, they can cause as much problems as an absolute lack of action or clarity on where to go in [00:06:00] life.

[00:06:00] Ross: I absolutely agree. And I think goals can imply a deficit. We're missing something. We're trying to achieve something that we currently don't have. Whereas personal values. We're not missing anything. We can try them on right now. We can develop a, almost a playful, experimental approach with our values, to explore which ones really resonate with us.

[00:06:22] And it's like trying on a new pair of shoes, or maybe a new cloak. I don't know why I chose cloak, but

[00:06:31] Richard: There's an insight.

[00:06:35] Ross: But yeah, we can we can try on a pair of shoes and start to take small steps in the direction that has some meaning for us and see how well they serve us in that direction. And I think some values can be a rich seam that run through our whole lives. And some can rise and fall depending on the chapter we are in, in our life with significant moments in our lives, maybe a value becomes more prominent.

[00:07:02] And we can then use that, that value as a guide for our behavior.

[00:07:06] Richard: I think that's exactly right. And as long as people can understand that, and they don't need to feel disappointed if they've maybe drifted away from a value over time and they don't need to over identify with a particular value just because it's very, very important at this phase in their life. So when I talk about this to my clients, I'll remind them of, you know, what was most important to you when you're 18.

[00:07:30] It could have been something like fun, adventure, it could have been education, it could have been just trying new things, and now you're 45, you're 50, you're 55, what's really important to you now? It's not that you don't care about fun, but maybe your focus is on things like stability, or legacy, or connection.

[00:07:51] with those closest to you. You've grown, you've developed, the values are still there, but as you say, it's a different chapter and so they might take [00:08:00] on a different meaning for you. And that's not to say I achieved fun, it's never to be looked at again, or in three weeks I will have achieved connection.

[00:08:10] It's more a case of I'm paying more attention to them at this stage in my life. And, um, that, that can take some pressure off us as well when we understand that it is a journey. It's not a qualification. It's not an achievement. It's what are we paying attention to? And, and really, this is the really important point.

[00:08:31] with values. It's achieving clarity of your values. It's not that you don't have values. It is, at least in Western society, we don't talk about them a lot. Therefore, we don't pay a lot of attention to them. Therefore, we might find ourselves working in Autopilot mode, simply chasing goals, or acting in ways that work just in that moment, but aren't really who we want to be.

[00:08:56] And sharing those kinds of examples helps people understand, Oh, that's what you mean by values. It's not a mission for my life. It's not a rule I must follow. It's if I was clear on what was important to me, I could do a little bit more of that in the everyday. Does that make sense?

[00:09:14] Ross: It does, and I love it that you gave us three there. I think they're three ones that will help explain the concept of values, of stability, legacy, and connection. imagine they are like a beacon that's shining for us. And we can use that beacon, I'm looking over at my imaginary beacon, we can use that beacon as a guide for us in how we communicate with others, how we make decisions.

[00:09:41] How we show up when the going gets tough. How we respond in the numerous different scenarios you face every day in the workplace. And it enables you to bring that consistency to how you're showing up.

[00:09:57] Richard: I really liked that point because you've touched on two [00:10:00] things there that, that. That usually come up when we discuss values in the workplace. One is, oh, dealing with something that's maybe novel or challenging. And the other is just more regularly being the kind of person that you want to be. Not only when you remember to do it, not only when it's easy, but being a consistent, coherent person.

[00:10:21] Individual. So there's two really good ways we can bring our values to life.

[00:10:25] We don't want to save them up to only use them for the big life decisions. They are as impactful if we use them to guide our behavior with the small things And if we're not doing it every day, how will you know how to do it when it's a huge decision or a big challenge? So they're not this, it's all up there, it's very conceptual, it could be very simple, very pedestrian, very everyday.

[00:10:51] But it's who we want to be, or it's how we want to be.

[00:10:55] Ross: And I love, I love that distinction and also the small things. That's how we, we practice flexing this values muscle, is we practice applying them in different scenarios. And sometimes we'll have to dial them up depending on the context. Sometimes we'll have to dial them down. They're not just applicable on one note throughout our careers, that would be quite unhelpful and not suit the variety of forces that leaders and people face in the workplace every day.

[00:11:29] Um,

[00:11:31] Richard: link back to one of our earlier topics, which was present moment awareness. If we're present in the moment we're in, that context is giving us lots of useful information that we can use to navigate it helpfully, you know, uh, not, not necessarily successfully or to win, but in a way that, that we would ideally like to.

[00:11:51] And that's, we can combine that present moment awareness with an awareness of our values. To navigate it. If we're not paying attention to now, we'll miss out on valuable [00:12:00] opportunities to bring those values to life because we weren't listening to the person in the meeting, or we weren't paying attention to the people sitting around us in the office, or we didn't even spot our neighbor when we were walking down the street.

[00:12:14] So there's a really clear link between the two there.

[00:12:17] Ross: So Richard, why would we want to explore our values and work out how to align our behavior with them? What are the goodies that are in this for us?

[00:12:27] Richard: I I'd like to start by circling back to something you said earlier. It was one phrase and it was super powerful. this notion of values about what you want to do, not how you want to feel. And a lot of people grapple with that when I, when I bring it up. in any context, really, it's about action. And therefore, if we're taking action in alignment with our values, one thing is it helps us be more like the kind of person that we want to be, where we're living up to, um, our identity. Now, it doesn't mean we're being amazing or we're winning or we're being successful. It just means I'm trying to do whatever it is in a way that I think is is the best way to do it.

[00:13:10] So we're not guaranteeing anything with our values. And that's why that important difference exists between doing and feeling. In other words, applying your values could be uncomfortable. Applying your values could be awkward. Bringing them to life may not spark joy, but it brings meaning and purpose. And what research has shown Over a few decades now is that the more we're able to bring our values to life, the more sense of coherence we have, but the, the boost it provides to our wellbeing, it's just good for us to do it.

[00:13:46] Um,

[00:13:47] and that's the fundamental level, but it's also, it's good for those around us. We, we can contribute to the strength of our relationships by being a consistent and thoughtful and values led person. and it [00:14:00] also means that we're less likely to engage in those unhelpful behaviors in the workplace, like avoidance of things, like maybe using our emotions.

[00:14:10] too much or letting the emotions take over. And because it's principles we're talking about, we're not bound by a set of rules for life. We're able to flexibly Use them to navigate different situations. So as I say, really regularly gives you a lot of bang for your buck if you do this. So rather than being caught up in momentary flashes of emotion or the thoughts that can hold us back, we're able to be, as I said, be the person we would ideally like to be more often.

[00:14:44] Ross: Uh, And I love the way you started off with saying it's about action, because otherwise these could just be notional words. Notional words. Oh, this is who I am. Unless we're really finding ways to express those values in our behavior, then it's not that meaningful. I think when we're moving towards a value that has meaning for us, we can get glimpses or glimmers of that purpose and meaning.

[00:15:13] We can feel that sort of inner alignment in our bodies, that sense of vitality. And it's not always easy to make those towards moves in expressing our values.

[00:15:24] Richard: So

[00:15:25] Ross: Sometimes it can be tough. And that's also a sign that this matters to you. Are you prepared to, to take the action needed to move towards this value that has some deep personal meaning for you?

[00:15:39] Lovely.

[00:15:41] Richard: of values. You know, I'll stick a pin in this and come back to it. In a moment that the cynicism, you know, values are just words, but it also means that we're able to do things that are important, helpful, meaningful, and not stop with, [00:16:00] is this easy or not? Is this fun or not? Do I enjoy doing this or not?

[00:16:05] And it helps us just focus on, is this worthwhile? Does this matter? So if people shy away from the word values, I'm fine with that. We don't have to use the V word at all. But what we're trying to do is figure out what really matters to you in life. What words would you use to describe that stuff? And then it's like, oh, OK, now I don't have to talk about something.

[00:16:30] Icky, like organizational values can make us feel icky, but instead, okay, I'm the kind of person who wants to, who does, who regularly, whatever those things are, this is what matters to me in life. And then the next step is, how can you bring that to life? How can you do more of that? Not just think about it.

[00:16:51] And I think if we go back to our psychological inflexibility theme, that's where a lot of us find ourselves. I know what's important. I know what matters. I just don't do it. And that feels awful. You know, it feels like we're letting ourselves down, or we've engaged in a behavior that we regret, and then we have to sort of make up for that, apologize, or do over, or we've made more problems for ourselves.

[00:17:16] So we can bypass all of that by making a clear link between values and our actions. And that's what, that's what brings this to life that moves it from words on a post it note to this is how I behave.

[00:17:30] Ross: that, that description. From words on a post it note to how we behave. How can we be seen behaving? It's so important. that cynicism with the V word, the values, can come from organizational values. Lots of organizations have values. People may become a bit despondent about that curled up poster on the wall that's quite faded.

[00:17:51] and say, well, I look around this workspace and I don't really see these values being brought to life in how people behave, which [00:18:00] I understand. And it can lead to that sort of value cynicism. But we can either reclaim the concept of personal values for ourselves, or we can just talk about qualities of behavior, if that sits or resonates more effectively.

[00:18:17] Richard: Absolutely. Taking that space, taking that time to figure that out for yourself, to know what it is that matters to you is an incredibly important first step. Otherwise, we're kind of buffeted by events, or we might at a personal level fall into a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, which is what are they doing?

[00:18:38] We'll do that. You know, that looks like a good set of competencies. Let's have those for our leaders. And similar. So instead of what are their values, no, what are mine? Because it can get a little bit complicated. I might look at someone else and think I know what their values are, but I don't. I only know what their behavior is.

[00:19:00] They might use different words to describe their values. They might not be bringing their values to life in the way that I would, and unless they sit me down and take me through a list and say, this is what matters to me in life, I'll never know. And so it can be a real distractor. Instead focusing on my values and me bringing them to life, I then don't have to expect them of other people.

[00:19:22] I don't have to see our other people being consistent. It's just, am I doing my bit? Am I staying in my lane and focusing on my behavior? Because that's, that's what I've got control over. I can't control yours. I can't control hers.

[00:19:36] Ross: such an important point, that comparisonitis, that we might see other people and we think, oh, I'm going to try that on. We're not that person, we're not in their context

[00:19:47] Richard: I

[00:19:47] Ross: of their life experience. I consider it to be quite a courageous act, that sort of pausing and thinking, what really does matter to me?

[00:19:55] Because it's more than just a, oh yeah, it's this, this and this. a deeper [00:20:00] exploration. let's get practical Richard, how do we help our clients develop this skill?

[00:20:05] Richard: think there's a principle. I would flag right now, which is to give people space. I would often make the point with a group that the worst possible thing I could do to someone is to sit them down and give them a piece of paper and say, write down your values. Now, you know, a blank sheet, because, well, we don't, I haven't thought about it.

[00:20:25] I might just pick some words. They won't be authentic. So there's an element of what we've just done, which is, what are we talking about? What are values? And then space to go away. and come up with their own values list, if you like. And there's lots of, lots and lots of different ways that that could be done.

[00:20:43] One of the ways that I do it with some coaching clients, depending on who they are, is to work back from a point in the future, and maybe three years, five years, and imagine themselves, because so much of the work that I do is about people at work. So imagine yourself in your ideal job. Let's, let's talk about that entire day.

[00:21:05] Once you've got all the detail of what makes that this perfect day for you, let's distill that into what it is that you were doing that contributed to that perfection. Now, just to be really clear, that's not a goal setting exercise. You're not saying in three years I will have that perfect job, but it is saying if I was experiencing everything that I wanted to, that gives me an insight into what I want and what I think is important in life.

[00:21:32] Thank you. So it could be the little things. An example could be someone saying, well, actually, my perfect day starts with a short walk to work. I don't want to commute in my life, because what's really important to me is I can spend as much time with the family in the morning and the evening as possible.

[00:21:50] Now, you could either say, you're all about commutes, or you could say, no, what's important to you? is family time. So we've, we've taken that from that little description [00:22:00] already. Someone else might say, what's really important to me is that I have a team reporting to me and I have time dedicated to, uh, helping them develop and grow as professionals.

[00:22:10] Okay. We've sort of distilled another thing. What we haven't focused on is your job title, your salary, the name of the company you'll be working for. That's not as relevant as if all of the stars were aligned and you were doing all this stuff. If you could have it all, what name would you give it? And many, not everyone, but many people find that quite an interesting, creative thing to do, but it does, it does take time.

[00:22:38] Ross: I absolutely agree, giving people the space to explore and sometimes with either individual coaching clients or, or groups of people, I'll use a set of values cards, which is A neat little box of around 60 values cards, which has the name of the value and then a brief definition. And I think there's something very tactile about that.

[00:23:05] Getting people to sort them into, typically I'd say three piles. And I'd set some parameters, I'd say there's pile one is, they really resonate with you. They ignite you. There's some sort of gut instinct reaction to that word. Then there's a pile in the middle that's Got some heat, but less heat than that pile one.

[00:23:27] And then there's a pile that's just a bit, uh, kind of take it or leave it. And it's fascinating seeing people do this exercise. And I've seen hundreds of people do it. And I, I add some caveats or suggestions saying, try to go with your gut instinct. This is a playful exploration. This isn't you selecting the values for the rest of your life.

[00:23:50] This is us getting more accustomed to thinking and considering values. So I'd say I'm not that interested in the good [00:24:00] girls and the good boys in the room. So if, if you think I must put that on pile one, not that interested, I'd really invite you to try and go with that gut instinct. cause your mind will want to get involved going, oh my goodness, you can't put generosity on the uh, pile.

[00:24:19] Richard: Exactly.

[00:24:21] Ross: What if Richard sees me do that and he makes a judgment about me? So, getting people to do that, and some people will say, How many do I need in each pile? I say, I don't know, no rules here. Or, are you talking about how I want to be or how I think I am? And I'll typically say, Yes. Probably really annoying. But it's just that liberating people to just really dig a bit deeper. And I'll say you can keep these cards. If you want to cross out the definition and put your own definition on to your point, then do that. Make these as useful as possible for you. It's a fascinating exercise watching people, watching people who are kind of wanting to get it right, really agonizing over which piles to put them in.

[00:25:15] I think all of this can help them start to really connect with the concept of values and think What do they really want to be about?

[00:25:25] Richard: The tangible nature of that I've found is really useful. Yeah, I totally agree. And if I have the opportunity with a group in the room to use cards, it's a very different experience to just. Let me have a think. What I also observe is people going, I wonder what their values are. What are they selecting?

[00:25:42] And also wrestling with the social pressure to choose certain things over others. And at a useful point, I think it helps people feel a little bit better about it. If you haven't chosen a value. As being of great importance to you. It doesn't mean you are against that [00:26:00] value. It just means it doesn't light a fire under you.

[00:26:02] It's not something you want lots of in your life. And it doesn't mean you devalue it in other people, because that's where this gets a little bit more complicated, which is being flexible about others values. Their values could either be identical to yours. But their behavior is really different. Or their values could be very different and you see behavior that's very similar to yours.

[00:26:25] You know what I mean? It's not that once you've chosen these values, you're going to follow this route that is set and configured in pursuit of this one thing. These are tools to allow you to navigate situations as and when. Another thing that comes up with the cards, I don't know if you've had this, someone might have said, these are 10 mega important things to me. I count to all ten at the same time. How do you answer a question like that?

[00:26:54] Ross: Great question. So, typically, I would say to people who've done that three piles, I'd say, who's got lots in that first pile? And typically lots of people have got like 20 or 10. And I say, right, that's a lot to carry around in our heads, thinking, right, now I'm going to bring to life this value of industry.

[00:27:14] Now I'm going to bring to life humor. So let's narrow it down. Why not choose four or five? And you can see the panic in some people then when you say, say they feel like they're discarding a value for the rest of their days. And actually, we're just experimenting with what it's like to narrow them down, and again using that gut instinct, narrow it down to four or five that really have that resonance and ignite you.

[00:27:40] And I think that can be quite revealing, and people are, often report back being a bit surprised by the ones that have leapt out at them. And again, I'd invite them to go away and sit with them. Sit with them and think, how could I bring these to life in my behaviour? Say I'm seeing them again in a [00:28:00] week, Or look back on the last few days. Are there ways that I've brought this to life? Small ways. I'd always say, remember, think small.

[00:28:09] Richard: But, but making the connection with action, with behavior is what's really key. And they're the memorable things because it's mildly disappointing for clients sometimes that we don't give them a checklist to say, if you want to do this value, here are the three things you must do. You know, it's no, it's in your life with your behaviors, with your context, find ways to bring that to life or identify ways you have already or could in the coming short period of time.

[00:28:38] So I love that. Keep it small, keep it doable, which is making the link between the two, rather than set this big, scary goal for the future or make this huge life decision. Because if values are, again, another analogy, or is it metaphor? Listeners, you tell me, um, the inner compass, you know, values give us a sense of direction.

[00:29:03] So, if you don't know how to use a compass, it's not a great idea to pick it up on a boat. In the middle of the biggest storm of the century. It's much more useful to have been using the compass for months and years beforehand to be a really good user of that tool. So it's about, as you say, slipping into these shoes and walking around in them for a little while to see what it's like to use these values in the everyday so that we know what it feels like to move towards them for those slightly more tricky situations or those bigger life decisions.

[00:29:38] Ross: reminds me, I once said that to a group, when do you use a compass? And the resounding response was never. And I was like, oh, shucks.

[00:29:48] Richard: yeah, I mean, this is this is why it is useful to have lots of different ways to describe values so that people can identify with it in a way that's meaningful to them. [00:30:00] As a person, so any imagery metaphor that allows you to think of the direction of travel. And that's, that's a, that's a way it's useful to distinguish them from goals.

[00:30:12] You know, if your holiday consists of a tour of Western Europe, well then you have a sense of direction to get from city to city and then your values, but the cities you want to go to, they're the goals I've been there to, I've achieved that goal, but it doesn't mean that my goal is heading East. Or heading west or heading north, it doesn't really make much sense.

[00:30:34] That's my sense of direction. So values don't tell us what to do. Therefore, we don't have a checklist. But they give us a sense of direction that if I move that way, then I at least I'm in alignment with what I think is important and meaningful. I

[00:30:52] Ross: The more steps we take in that direction, the more we're experimenting with expressing that value in different ways and consolidating as a really memorable guide to our behavior. That beacon is really shining brighter each time we step nearer to it. So how do, how do you bring to life, This concept in your own work, into your own practice, Richard.

[00:31:21] Richard: think it was one of the most useful things for me to learn about when I first started to learn about ACT. Because I will say that earlier in my career, I was a busy bee. I had a lot going on, all the time. And I equated good with busy. I equated good with achievement. And therefore it was goals, goals, goals.

[00:31:44] Alright, to an unhelpful degree. If you can get the clear blue water between goals and values, then you can think, oh I could be, let me put it this way, in the absence of goals, it's very easy to say, well I'm not good. But if I have [00:32:00] goals and I'm working really hard, then I'm good. But actually you can put that to one side and say, Oh, I'm good anyway.

[00:32:05] I'm a good, worthwhile person. And I can be more like that more of the time. If I'm just heading in this direction, I don't have to achieve anything. I don't have to win anything. I can just do this consistently. And that was more than a light bulb moment for me. It was a, it was a huge, huge realization that I was sort of relentlessly pursuing the next thing rather than, as I said, what about today?

[00:32:32] How could I be more like me today? Rather than when I finished this course in six months, I'll be an even better practitioner. And that was a very real thing for me. So when I am making decisions. About what I'm going to do at work as in what do I want this year to look like it's straight to the values because I've said to myself, these are important and actually going back to my notebook, going back to my digital notes and saying, no, I am committed to this.

[00:33:03] This is who I want to be. Therefore, it's going to help me make some decisions. And for me, that's usually let's reduce the list. Let's do fewer things. Let's have fewer initiatives. Let's try to be less of a busy bee. And that, that's really, really helpful because it helps me avoid goals equals being a good person.

[00:33:24] Again,

[00:33:25] does that make sense? That distinction between the two?

[00:33:29] Ross: Ah, Richard, it's, it's super powerful, thank you. It really is. resonates with me, really brings to life the concept of values and it's really relatable too. I think one of my values for this year has been, or is, connection. I realised, sort of, having moved to a new country, Uh, two years ago, over two years ago now, and cracking on with work and really getting my head down with work, I really felt [00:34:00] like I was losing contact with people, people who were important to me, people who were close to me, and I felt like everything was drifting. So this year, well before this year actually, towards the end of last year, I started to make a conscious effort to nurture those connections and realize the importance of them for my well being and also for the joy of connecting. It's, it's, it's one of the reasons that you and me are doing this project together from my perspective.

[00:34:30] Richard: Absolutely.

[00:34:31] Ross: It's this joy of connecting with you and bouncing ideas off you and just experimenting with different ways to express that through, through various connections and collaborations. And it's, it's not always easy. And it's filling me with that sense of That glimmer of, yeah, come on Ross, this is really important. And what I'll tend to do is write them down. My values I'll write them down. And if I'm doing a big presentation or if I'm dealing with a coaching client. that perhaps I feel a little disconnection with, or feel like that the coaching may have gone adrift, then I will put the values that I want to bring to that coaching session behind my laptop, on my old music stand I tend to use.

[00:35:22] And I put the values that I want to bring to a particular coaching session or a presentation. I don't have the content up there because the content is hopefully in my head and I may have some brief notes around that. But more importantly for me, it's how I show up in that coaching session, how I show up in that presentation. And that's what I look to when I'm looking kind of above my camera, I see those words and it just helps me reconnect. When I might be feeling a little bit, uh, during a presentation or, or a coaching session. It just helps ground me and really gives me a physical representation of my beacon, if you [00:36:00] like.

[00:36:00] Richard: That's such a practical kind of use of that. And you've also referenced a really, Important use of our values, which is helping us persist through something less than palatable, you know, the things that are necessary, but maybe unpleasant or necessary, but ambiguous and a little bit scary. So if, if we only ever did stuff that was guaranteed to be successful, then we probably wouldn't grow or advanced and it could be in the moment in a coaching conversation, like you've said, or it could be.

[00:36:34] Putting yourself forward for a promotion at work. Raising your hand and asking a question. Because you know that's who I want to be. It's not about playing it safe the whole time. It's not about avoiding the whole time. It's this is who I want to be and therefore that's how I'm going to be in this moment.

[00:36:52] Not at some point when it's easier.

[00:36:54] Ross: lovely point,

[00:36:56] Richard: So early dates for people, it's therefore really useful. To have those values represented visually somehow in a tactile way. It makes all the difference. We're visual creatures. So little reminders in our environment can be very, very helpful. Otherwise they can easily get lost in. All the things I need to do today.

[00:37:16] Ross: yeah, put a note on the bathroom mirror, put a note on your front door. I did say that to one, one group once and they said, do you mean outside, facing outwards? I said, well that would be an interesting way to display your values to the world and you could also have them on the inside a little to remind you as you're going out. Because life is busy and we forget about these things, we're just looking for ways to make them more prominent. Another tip one of my participants once shared with me in group training is taking a photo of your values, the words. On your phone and making it the background.

[00:37:54] Richard: Oh, yeah. Because how often do you look at your phone?

[00:37:58] Ross: yeah, approximately [00:38:00] a gazillion times a day. if we can see those words and it might just remind you, this is what's important. How could I, in this next moment, take a small, move towards this value.

[00:38:17] Richard: and and you've, you've uncovered something else that is another benefit, I would argue, of having clarity over your values. Which is, you can then express them verbally to other people in a coherent way. You can then, and again, you don't have to use the V word, um, you can say, this is what matters to me.

[00:38:38] This is what's important to me in life. And you've got words to describe it, rather than getting stuck in an emotional expression of, I don't like it, or I'm disappointed because I don't have it. You can then use your words like an adult, but because you've thought it through. You've worked it out for yourself, and therefore it's easier to speak to someone else about it.

[00:39:02] Then they know so much more about you. And there's a good chance they'll tell you what's important to them. And now you're connecting on a totally different level. And that's why for many, many of the team development activities I do, I try to incorporate values as an idea. Or at least make the point that values are different to goals.

[00:39:22] So let's maybe come up with a few words to describe how a value could be different to a goal you have and people learn so much about each other, and it helps us avoid assuming people's motivations or misinterpreting their behavior, because now I know what drives you. Now I know what's important to you.

[00:39:40] Ross: Absolutely. So there's been some tips already along the way, but how would we suggest people make a start with this skill?

[00:39:49] Richard: We've been talking. throughout this series, I think about small things people could have a go with and values can sound very big and scary, but if you were to just take a little bit of [00:40:00] time with yourself, a piece of paper, a pen, and this is how I've done it with, with some people in workshops where we weren't planning to do it and it sort of spontaneously came up.

[00:40:09] Have a look at your calendar for the last week. What were you doing with your time? That can give you an indication as to what you think is important and what matters. And if it's not there, how can you make that appear on your calendar in the future? If you were going to schedule being a certain way, what would be on your calendar?

[00:40:29] Because that's where our time and attention goes, but to really importantly, I think, write this stuff down, don't just think about it because you've committed it to the page, not to say, this is it forever, but to say, that's my starting point on clarity, and I'll come back to it in a day or two and look at it again and say, do I still think those words?

[00:40:50] There's no pass fail with this, is there? There's no perfection, but it's starting to identify the words that you think. If I was a bit more of that, if I was doing more of that, that would be great. Great.

[00:41:03] Ross: I really like that looking back on your calendar. Really nice exercise. And another one I might use is inviting people to think about their retirement due, whether it's in five years or whether it's in two decades or Whether it's way off into the future, you can barely see it. Imagine your retirement, do, and the laws of physics and time have been suspended.

[00:41:26] So there are people there from, from throughout your career, and some people who've really had an impact on you. And people stand up and talk about what it was like to work with you, how you were in the workplace. And just have a think about what you'd really love to hear them say. Who you were, what it was like to work with you.

[00:41:47] What you stood for perhaps and just I so agree Richard writing it down Just let your pen start writing. Don't be worried about. Oh, maybe this sounds a bit [00:42:00] big headed or I'm not sure if this is right Just let your pen write and transfer that content of your mind to the page And just keep writing and then have a read of it and see what stands out. That's, it's a really interesting exercise and I find that it resonates with some people really effectively.

[00:42:20] Richard: But it comes back to your earlier point about I do it now versus Oh, I wish I was like that. We can have aspirational values and now we know what we want so we can start to do it. We don't have to be doing it now. And in fact, if you notice the discomfort of, Oh, I'm not like that. But I wish I were then that shows you it's important to you that internal ick that, Oh, I've really drifted from being the kind of person I wanted to be.

[00:42:49] Okay. That is uncomfortable, but it's also telling you. You're back on track and you can, you can start again now, you know, or even if you've never done it, you've identified something important to you so you can start to move in that direction. Now it's never too late. It doesn't require money or oodles of time.

[00:43:09] It's the small things in the value direction that make all the difference. It's it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Um, and, and I think that's one of the ways that people can really get into putting act into practice. becoming more psychologically flexible because they're paying attention to something different, which is the direction of travel.

[00:43:34] They're not getting caught up with everything that might tell them why that's difficult, why that's scary, why that is to be avoided. And the feedback loop from that Oh, when I go in that direction, it feels good. Therefore, I'd like to do more of it. I've lost count of the number of people who said that to me over the years.

[00:43:52] It was small, but meaningful. And now I want to do more.

[00:43:56] Ross: Beautiful. And I just really echo that. Something you said [00:44:00] there is really important for me. It's never too late to explore your values and keep exploring them.

[00:44:05] Richard: Absolutely.

[00:44:06] Ross: that's it, my chat with Dr. Richard McKinnon in the bag. We'll be back with the next installment of this mini series after our next guest, Who is Professor Ross White, talking about his extraordinary book, The Tree That Bends.

[00:44:24] you'll find all the details for this episode in the show notes at peoplesoup.

[00:44:28] captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic.

[00:44:48] And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

[00:44:56]

[00:44:57] Ross: And it's like trying on a new pair of shoes, or maybe a new cloak. I don't know why I chose cloak, but

[00:45:06] Richard: There's an insight.