Tim:

Part of my anger was me leaning into the masculinity. And I feel a little bit like, it's not me. Like, I'm a very masculine man, I'm like, I am completely not ignorant of how I appear. And I do feel like that is how a lot of people treat me because that's what they see. And I don't like it.

Alex:

Today’s guest is Tim Alexander, who lives in London and works in the restaurant industry.

In this episode we’re delving into anger – what happens when you suppress it, what it’s covering up – and how it might help you explore your own masculinity.

The story starts in a pizza shop, where Tim was working as a delivery driver. He liked the job – but he didn’t get on with one of his managers. Everything came to a head one afternoon.

Tim:

When I would come on shift, she wouldn't want to make eye contact, I would be the one who'd say hello. Which was a bit odd to me. Like, someone wouldn't do that. And so she was always a bit awkward with me.

I had to deliver this pizza and I’d gone out into the middle of nowhere. Because the the app system they had told me to and when I got there, like it's pretty normal practice that if you can't find the place where you're not sure where you are, you ring the customer, you say, Oh, I'm here. Do you know where I am? And obviously, I asked her before I'd left where what was up with this? And my understanding is it was the automatic place that it sends you to if it doesn't know where you're going. And she was supposed to be my manager, so I sort of thought, shouldn't she have known that. But when I got there, I rang the customer. And sort of understandably, he was quite annoyed, but he basically chewed me out on the phone and said a bunch of unpleasant things to me.

He was just very annoyed, which I understand, I don't think he needed to be quite so unpleasant towards me. But what I decided was from how I felt I was like, well, I'm not putting up with that I was going to clock off shift and go home.

And when I went back, I put the pizzas on the side, I put my keys and my the phone, they gave me a button on the side. And I went literally to take the door to leave. I knew what state I was in; I was irrational and angry and emotional as I was just going to go home, because it seemed like the most sensible thing to do. I've done it in the past when I've been at work and someone said something, and I've my temper is gone. And I'm just like, I'm gonna go home, because you know, I don't want to get in a fight with anyone, I don't want to yell at anyone, I don't want conflict. So I would just leave.

And as I go to the door, she says to me: “calm down”. And I literally have like a switch in my brain go off. When you're angry, and someone tells you to calm down, I feel like it completely invalidates how you feel like you shouldn't be annoyed, you shouldn't be angry. And I do understand that it's sort of a knee jerk reaction for some people. But I guess for me, it was like it reminds me of being told to calm down when being a child and it's triggering. And basically, I went off like a bloody rocket.

And I shouted at her and I must have shouted for like two seconds. But I said, Don't you bloody tell me to calm down.

I can project my voice. So if I actually lose my temper, it’s bloody scary. Because of the volume; it’s incredibly loud. And I'm aware of it. We're in that moment, I literally had lost it and I shouted.

And then I just sort of froze there and I was sort of shaking and she was like I’m going to ring the police. And then eventually I just left.

Having spoken to the other managers who were both men, they said, if you'd have done that to me I just said look calm down mate, take a minute. Because it was a woman understand that it was scary. And we did sort of have a talk, but she… again, because we didn't get on it was very sort of high and mighty when she was talking to me, and it just made me feel worse.

I said that, like this guy chewed me out. And she was just like so what?

Like there was no fault on her end. And, you know, it doesn't excuse what I did, but like there was an animosity between us.

Situations can get out of hand, it’s not an excuse to loose your temper

Alex

When she said calm down before you before you you got angry and shouted, what did you actually do for her to say calm down? Was it your was it? Was it your energy? Was it? Were you saying other things to her?

Tim

No, I didn't say anything I came in and I literally chuck the pizzas on the counter. And I was just like, oh, that's why I put them on the counter. I said you can stick them up his ass. That's what I did. Because that's how I felt in the moment. I'm like, I'm not going to be abused by customers for minimum wage. It's not worth it. I mean, now I wouldn't deal with a situation anywhere near close to that because I've come to terms with my anger in a much more healthy way. But at the time, I clearly didn't know how to deal with it. I felt like the victim in the situation. I don't think that was true. Because really, it's like yeah, I could sort of see that I was tired. Someone else had chewed me out. It doesn't give me an excuse to yell at someone irrelevant in my own emotional state. But it's I think about Usually with masculinity for my experience of it, it's always this suppressed everything else, you're only allowed to be angry. It seems like the only emotion that men are allowed to express his anger. And then obviously when you do express it comes out and it's basically everything you've been feeling. So the stress the tie it everything, it just all comes out in one go. And then you feel very justified in the moment. And and now obviously I don't because it's like there's no excuse for doing that. Now I feel like I'm much more calm person.

Alex

When you came back with the pizzas, and you slam them down, if say one of them, the male managers who you got on well with had sent you right to the wrong address, and you brought those pizzas back, would you have been as angry if it was one of those on shift rather than her?

Tim

I think they'd probably said something to me sooner. I think that's the difference. Like they said, they said they would have said, I'll calm down. It's all right, right. Like, whereas it didn't seem to give a shit like was the jest I got from it. But I mean, she didn't afterwards when she was talking to me. She was like, Oh, you get chewed out by customers? It's fine. I don't believe that it is in any scenario. Again, it doesn't excuse what I did. But I just yeah, it just doesn't ring true to me that customers should be allowed to yell it. Service layer doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, you're probably right. Yeah, I did get on with the other guys better, but I didn't necessarily chalk it up to them being male. Like, I mean, maybe she did. I don't know. It's difficult one.

Alex

Yeah. How does this relate to kind of the relationship between men and women in the sense that hypothetically speaking, if, if, if it was a male manager, who would treated you the exact same way as the woman do you think you would have? Do you think you would have got as angry with, with the male manager as you would with her?

Tim

Yeah. Okay, if I'm on his side, I do, I did. The agenda thing for me. I think if it was a male manager, they'd probably be less likely to threaten to call the police. Which is the thing because obviously, I mean, when I spoke to my other manager after the fact, he said, he looked at the footage, which was obviously silent, I only lost my temper, probably for about two seconds. And he told me, it just looks bad. Like it looked horrendous, like, I really did lose my temper. And obviously, two seconds, and then that was in control, where it must have come out at full volume, like, I mean, it must have been scary, I'm not ignorant of that. And if it had been a male manager, he'd probably have been less afraid, which I completely understand. But I mean, that could just be a size thing, not necessarily gender, like, a very large woman would probably be less afraid of you because men tend to be bigger. So I don't necessarily chalk it up to gender. I mean, my own relationship with masculinity is to the point where I consider myself non binary at this point.

Alex

It's just fascinating, because, you know, it's very, very unlikely that someone is going to a man who's going to attack a woman in a workplace, but her reptilian brain doesn't know any different. It's just like fight or flight.

Tim

It's I was gonna say, is one of those things, have you ever see a man break down in tears or something and like, like, properly broke down in tears, like a little kid. And to me, I see a little boy who needs a hug. But I do understand that if you're much smaller than that person, you must be sitting there thinking, What the hell are they going to do next. And that's almost exclusively a male experience is that you cannot break down. It is not okay to break down because a woman can do it. And there's only so much she can do. Like, if I properly break down and I lost control. I could do a lot of damage both to myself and other people. There's a woman can almost do it. And it's not a big deal. Like I do tend to find that when they're more likely to cry in public, but they're also more likely to express emotion in general. And then men seem to lean into this. I should be stoic all the time. And it's like I there's an element of stoicism and you should be able to control your emotions. But then for me personally, like I got to the point where I stopped crying. Because I didn't think it was okay. And then I think five years after my father in law died, who I was what my father in law, because we were very close, like when I was coming up and he was very, sort of a very masculine man, and obviously he didn't cry and stuff but I got about five years after I realised that like, some of the anger some of the pain I was walking around with was that I just been walking around with grief and done absolutely nothing with it. And so I was sitting in training myself to cry again, like like, even today, I struggle with it. Like don't think it's okay. I don't feel like it's okay. I think it's okay, because I know that it is okay. But I don't feel it fully. And I've been doing my own cognitive therapy with a bunch of stuff like that. And a lot of them are toxic masculine. Because the beginning of my depression was a breakdown I had because I was working full time. And then trying to do everything else I was working night shifts, 10 hours was doing 40 to 50 hours a week, and then trying to come home and do everything. And I just had a breakdown, a complete breakdown. And it was like, Yeah, because I, I spent no time trying to relax or feel what I was feeling I just pushed and pushed and pushed. And like, this pizza thing was just like another example of where I pushed and broke and then continue to push for some reason. And now I don't push anywhere near as much and I'm more comfortable with sometimes I just feel something and I'm going to sit and I'm going to feel it at okay, good, the bad, the ugly. But the more I felt it, the less it was like, the less it became anger and depression. And then it was like, sorrow and sadness. And it's like to deal with all of those, they're, they're much less overwhelming. But you have to work, you have to feel the other ones to get to those ones. And I feel like often, you'd think that you can't get to them because you're not allowed to feel the first ones.

Alex

It's interesting because it reminds me of a quote that I read years ago, he said, feel the feeling until it can't be felt anymore. And I think as men, sometimes we we don't want to feel those things we just kind of we just shove them away into a into a corner. And but they're actually still there. We're still leave living, breathing thing, and we just think are buried that but it's not it's kind of bubbling under the surface. So I was curious. If you think about kind of the the situation with the woman and the anger and the animosity you felt towards her. In that moment when you when you as you say you lost it. What was that? What was the percentage of you were annoyed at her but you're also you've got that catharsis. You want to let out from the father in law that your father in law that you were close to who died and any other things like you said depression and things like that in the past.

Tim

And I the way I've rationalised is the way I felt was true to the situation. The way I reacted was disproportional. And whenever I found something I said, when I go into my therapy, or I find myself I go Why did I overreact to that? Why? Why was my reaction so big? Like it shouldn't have been, it was too much. And every time I've done that I've gone there's something missing. There's, there's something I'm feeling under the surface, which I haven't addressed yet. And I did cognitive therapy for thought to deal with a lot of the Depression. And then I think it was seven months ago, I came across a different version of it, which was trying to figure out what you think you feel rather than think. And so then you go through what do I feel even if it isn't true, and then I found that there's a lot of things from childhood that I still feel, which aren't true. And I have to reprogram that just as I reprogrammed, like how I thought over six years.

Alex

You said something interesting before, when you said when you're when the female manager said, calm down, it created this trigger from from being a child. Which I found interesting, because we do have those situations, don't we? Where if someone says the eggs, I'm thinking about my life as well, someone said that the exact phrase, or the exact words that remind you of something from 1020 years ago, it can trigger those things. You know, he, I'm trying to think of a particular situation from from my life, but you know, X relations or past relationships or family members saying this now to me as a 35 year old, it can make me go back to the five year old, the 10 year old Alex and so on.

Tim

Even being aware of the fact that for me, someone going calm down is a trigger, gives me more power over the situation because I can then recognise that and go, if it happens, I can go, oh, that's gonna make me feel a certain way. I now need to tell them, Look, I need to step away from this. I can't think rationally in that moment because you can't if it's going to trigger something from childhood that you don't necessarily have control over. I mean, when I got I was I must have been 2026 I think when I was doing that job, and when I reached about 27 I realised like a whole heap of anxiety just sort of fell off me. Like I just didn't care anymore. Which sounds really strange, but it's like 27 I was like, I'm me. This is me. II by the depression, the everything I just accepted all of it. I was like, This is who I am. I'm going to be depressed sometimes. And it's not. I stopped resisting a lot of it. So I think that like, yeah, definitely the toxic part of it was me trying to push through everything, and then not being able to

Alex

I've had a similar situation to you where it's like, you're accepting the good and the bad parts of you. And then you're willing to let willing to allow not allow it, but just let it go. And just and not hold on to it. It's almost like you're, there's some elements of you that's kind of like this. And now you're just going, it's just almost just releasing, whatever it is.

Tim

Yeah, it's definitely, from what I've heard, when I've spoken to other people, like going through your 20s is a bit of that. It's a bit because you're a kid, you're like figuring out what you're doing. And you get into your 20s. And you're like, oh, there's a bunch of fallout from childhood, which you didn't expect to have to be dealing with. And at a certain point, you realise I can't just stuff this down, it has to be unpacked, it has to be dealt with. And it's hard, and it's difficult. But it has to be done if you want to be a better person. And that's to me the questions like, do you actually want to be better, and if you don't, stuff away, but if you actually want to be better in yourself and to feel better as well, you have to take out things that are not necessarily nice to look at in yourself, and you have to accept them, or even angry, if you accept that you're angry. It passes. If you hold on to it and go, I shouldn't be angry. Or especially as a man, it's very common to go, oh, I don't want to be an angry man. That's a stereotype. And then you push back against, you know, you can sort of tie yourself in knots trying to get out of it. And you're like, oh, I don't want to be an angry man. I want to be a nice man people like and then you're pushing back against your own anger. And it's like, well, you can't stuff that way as well. Like, I had a experience where I lost my temper a lot. And it sort of shook me. And that was after the pandemic. And I think everyone had things that were bottled up from that. I really lost my temper and I haven't lost my temper since law, not like that not lost it. I've been angry. I've now lost my temper. I've lost control. Because I realised that I can't. Because it isn't just everyone around me who yes, I'm going to probably terrify if I do, I'm going to hurt myself. And so I owe it to everyone in the situation to be calm. And I've said it in job interviews. In fact, I just I said to them, Some men are born calm, and some men have to be and I have to be. That's how it feels. Because I started working in the kitchen again seven months ago. And I went from fry cook to sous chef in seven months. And I'm like, Yeah, that's impressive in itself. But 10 years ago, I couldn't have worked in the kitchen. The pressure would have just eaten me alive. Like I would have just been anxious the whole time. And now I I was in there and they were I was starting KFC is where I started. And there was six fryers all of the chicken I was the only cook in there most of the time. Come lunchtime. They're like oh yeah, we need this. We need that and like fries are at capacity. Nothing I can do about it. Like I'm working as fast as I can within the safety regulations and hygiene regulations. I just wasn't fast, like I should have like, you know, like a lot of even some of the younger chaps in the kitchen, but they get really flustered and I like no pay us enough to get flustered. Like just chill just and that seems to be where I am now. And it's I don't necessarily feel like that person yet. But I get the confirmation from other people. They're like you're really calm and chill are like oh, oh, that's new by That's the energy I'm giving off. But it's not. I haven't fully internalised it yet. Can I still feel a little bit like the scary angry man. And I accept that. I feel that that's part of the skill set as well as just like, you don't have to rise to everything is too much work. I really that's getting old. Yeah. You just go. I should be passionate about this. And I'm like, so.

Alex

Yeah. Tim, you mentioned before about about being non binary and rejecting the idea of masculinity. Can you can you talk about that.

Tim

Part of my anger was me leaning into the masculinity. And I feel a little bit like, it's not me. Like I'm a very masculine man. I'm like, I am completely not ignorant of how I appear. And I do feel like that is how a lot of people treat me because that's what they see and I don't like it. I don't necessarily like being treated as I appear because I had long hair for a very long time. Mmm What I found when I cut it was a very different group of people would nice to me, just instantly, like they saw what they wanted to see. And so with short air, they see a heteronormative man. And I the primary experience that makes me feel non binary rather than like a norm. That's not normal. But I don't like saying cyst because it feels like an insult. But a cyst man basically, is when I've been in an all male environment, a lot of men switch, light, they, they turn, they change, and they talk about the spook, particularly women in a completely different way they do if it's a, you know, if it's a gender environment where there's two people, two genders, they speak differently, and I don't switch. And I find it really uncomfortable when men do and then they start going, they start saying things about women, and I just feel uncomfortable, I'm heterosexual, but it makes me uncomfortable. And I couldn't explain it for a long time. And I sort of did quite a bit of reading about people getting sex changes, because I didn't understand it from the perspective of they said, I feel like I'm the wrong gender like, you feel like a gender. I don't understand what that means. I don't feel like a man, because I don't know what it is to feel like a woman I feel like myself. So to me, the language is very confusing itself. But then when I was reading about it, I came across the term non binary. And it made me feel a lot better because it was like, Oh, it's okay. I don't need to understand it, because I don't understand it. And a lot of people have said to me, I don't understand non binary. And I like Well, do you understand what it is to be to feel male and to feel female or a woman or a man? And they say, Yeah, I understand that. So I don't so we're in the same boat. You don't understand how I feel, I don't understand how you feel because it doesn't make sense to me. And I accept that it doesn't but because I accept that I don't a lot of masculinity, I've completely thrown away. Like I bought, I buy things with flowers on them, which are clearly aimed at women. But I like them and I like flowers and from my reading a flowers a positive psychological things like they're nice things to have around you. They like people who doodle flowers have a better psychological state. And I'm like, so why are they exclusively for women? It seems very odd to me that like they're like, oh, flowery things. They're for ladies. Right? So men are not allowed to have something that's positive. It feels a bit odd.

Alex

It's like the colour pink, isn't it? You know, the colour. The colour pink is our Well, that's only you know, fits it pink clothes, pink tops, pink trousers, whatever. That's only for for women. But now that you're seeing people kind of reject that and go, Well, I like this. I'm a man. I like this pink t shirt. So I'm gonna wear it.

Tim

You do see more of it. But again, it's one of those things that like, sometimes I'm talking to a man. I'm like, Oh, he's like me, He's normal. And then I'm alone in with them. And they talk differently. And I find that really odd. I can't, I can't really explain it. It just makes me feel uncomfortable. And like Who was I talking to before? Like you put on a face when you're around women or gay people. It feels really dishonest to me. And it makes them they just feel uncomfortable to me after that, because I don't switch and whether women men, I'm annoying in all situations, it doesn't change. If I was describing, like how I would aspire, I would say I aspire to matriarch not patriarch. Because both of those words have very different connotations. And I feel like patriarchy is very aggressive. It's control. Whereas, like you think of a matriarch you think of mothering and nurturing and protective. It doesn't feel the same. And yes, I think that does affect you if you're masculine and a man like oh, the the word patriarch, to me has a negative connotation. And that's the gender I am like, I don't so I don't feel it by except that I am it. Because I'm non binary doesn't make any difference to me why am but it seems to make a difference to other people. And so I still experienced life, obviously, as a man. By you know, it's one of the reasons I really liked working in the theatre is because there's a complete spectrum. Because quite often I remember doing a course with some people much younger than me. And they said to me, what are your pronouns? And I said, I don't I don't care. I just don't care. he she it they does not matter to me. When I write down I do about Mx So just to make it clear to someone that I'm not a heteronormative, man, which seems a bit odd that I do that, but I feel like it sort of needs saying and it's it's a label for other people not for me. My experience with being non binary is gender means nothing. It means nothing to me. And I know not everyone's experiences that because it's a large umbrella term, but to me, it feels like you could just take the entire argument and all of the stuff and just brush it away. Because it's completely irrelevant to me. I don't understand it. But I understand that society doesn't see that

Alex:

I could really relate to Tim story. There's been many times in my life where I've reacted instead of responded. And those are two very different things. Tim reacted in that moment. And he allowed his emotions to override his logic. Tim knew he'd made a mistake, but he was big enough to admit it. And that's all we can do when we have a situation like that happened to us. Confronting flaws and mistakes hasn't been an easy thing for me to deal with. And on many occasions, we don't want to admit we're in the wrong. Therefore I respect Tim a lot for coming on and saying this. Tim talked about not identifying with traditional aspects of masculinity anymore, and now identifies as non binary. For me, I remember the first time that I went against the traditional notion of masculinity. When I came home after being sacked from a garden job, I was 17 years old. And instead of doing the typical thing of just keeping everything to myself, and bottling it up, I released it, and I started crying my eyes out, I was absolutely heartbroken. And I remember my parents been in shock, because he'd never seen me cry like that since I was a kid. They gave me the permission to be upset, and I appreciated and embraced the fact that there was nothing wrong with crying. To be honest, I didn't blame the boss because I was absolutely rubbish at that job. liked him. Over the years, I've learned to deal with my anger in more positive ways. One of which is going to the gym and getting all that anger out on a punch bag. So give it a go, I can highly recommend it.

Thanks for listening to today's episode with Tim Alexander. If you'd like to learn more about our voices, make sure you go to the our voices podcast.com website. You can also follow us on Spotify. And while you're there, make sure you give us a five star rating. If you love what we do. It would really help us to grow the show. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. And I'll see you next week for another great story.