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Introduction Voiceover: You are
listening to Season Six of

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Future Ecologies.

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Mendel Skulski: Test, test one,
two, Bumblebee, tuna, rabble,

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rabble, rhubarb, rhubarb, good
to see ya. Okay, hi everybody! I

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am Mendel.

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Adam Huggins: and I'm Adam

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Mendel Skulski: and today we're
joined in the studio by... a red

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legged frog!

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...potentially more than one red
legged frog.

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Adam Huggins: a chorus of randy
red legged frogs, recorded with

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a hydrophone during their
breeding season in February — in

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a half frozen wetland that I
helped to restore a couple of

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years back.

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Mendel Skulski: Recorded with a
hydrophone, because this species

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only vocalizes underwater.

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Adam Huggins: Yeah, otherwise,
they are pretty darn quiet.

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Mendel Skulski: They're
adorable!

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Adam Huggins: And they make this
sound all night long, like up to

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14 hours, pretty chatty for a
creature few people ever get to

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hear

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Mendel Skulski: Yeah, for
reasons, not just that so few of

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us are underwater in February,
but because the red legged frog

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has been in steep decline for
many years, due largely to the

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loss of wetlands throughout
their range.

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Adam Huggins: Which is one of
the reasons why Mendel, you and

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I share a hobby in addition to
making this show.

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Mendel Skulski: Yeah.

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Adam Huggins: Which is that we
both work to restore wetlands.

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Mendel Skulski: Well, that's
charitable. You work to restore

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wetlands. I dabble in restoring
wetland. That is, one little

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urban wetland in my neighborhood
in Vancouver.

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Adam Huggins: Yeah, it's a cute
wetland, though.

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Mendel Skulski: I love it.

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Adam Huggins: And to do that, we
have both had the opportunity to

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work with the same remarkable
woman.

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Robin Annschild: What are we
going to talk about?

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Adam Huggins: Well, the very
first thing to do is to

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introduce yourself. Who are you?

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Robin Annschild: My name is
Robin Ann's child, and I design

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and build wetland and stream
restoration projects.

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Mendel Skulski: On any given
day, you're likely to encounter

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Robin up to her ankles in mud,
sporting a hardhat and a

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high-viz vest, orchestrating the
actions of up to a half dozen

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heavy machine operators — all
working together to answer one

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important question.

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Robin Annschild: what is it that
we need to do in that watershed

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to restore a healthy
relationship between the soil

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and the water?

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Adam Huggins: And the reason
that this question is so

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important is that we humans, of
the colonial variety, have

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seriously disrupted that
relationship basically

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everywhere that we have settled.
Across North America, over 50%

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of all wetlands have been lost
since the 1700s and that loss

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has actually accelerated in
recent years, despite no net

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loss policies and mitigation
efforts. It's even worse in some

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areas, like where I'm from, in
California, where over 90% of

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wetlands have been lost. In
British Columbia, that number is

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closer to 70%

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Mendel Skulski: And when you say
lost, you mean...

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Adam Huggins: Drained and
converted for other uses.

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Robin Annschild: We have
significant cultural amnesia

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about how we've changed these
landscapes where we live. In

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Europe, where certainly my
ancestors came from, there had

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already been centuries, if not
millennia, of a really

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systematic and highly
sophisticated wetland drainage.

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Mendel Skulski: Because wetland
is usually flat, flat land is

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good for building things.

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Adam Huggins: Wetland is also
rich. Rich land is good for

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harvesting timber and growing
crops

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Mendel Skulski: Industrializing
societies all over the world

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tend to take places that are
wet, woody, rich and wild, and

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reduce them to a blank slate for
all kinds of development.

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Robin Annschild: Creating those
uniform conditions across

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floodplains is kind of the bread
and butter of our way of living

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on the landscape, simplifying
streams so that instead of being

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broad and flat and flooding the
floodplain, perhaps on an annual

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basis, they are now in deep
ditches that flow down a

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straight line, you know, on the
edge of the field. It never

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occurred to me that the very
ditches that I played in as a

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child, I thought that those
ditches had streams in them,

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really, they were ditches
draining wetlands, and that

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water that I played in in those
ditches was water being drained

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out of wetlands.

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Adam Huggins: I also have fond
memories of playing in ditches

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as a kid on ag land that had
once been in the flood plain of

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the San Joaquin River. The
landscape changes that Robin is

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describing are ubiquitous.

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Robin Annschild: Everything that
we have done when logging, road,

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building, mining, converting
wetlands and floodplains to

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agriculture, has been about
hastening the passage of the

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water through the watershed. And
now what we're looking at is,

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well, now wait a minute, what if
we wanted to invite that water

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to take a more leisurely path?

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Mendel Skulski: Many of our
ancestors were trying to get the

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water off the land as fast as
possible, and now here we are

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thinking the exact opposite. How
do we keep the water on the land

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for as long as possible?

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Robin Annschild: Wetlands, by
their very nature, are dynamic

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ecosystems. One of the things
that I find so exciting about

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wetland and stream restoration
is that through a single action,

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we're achieving multiple
benefits.

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Mendel Skulski: Like making
habitat for endangered frogs,

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Adam Huggins: as discussed, and
also to recharge aquifers

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sequester carbon, create fire
breaks and mitigate the

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destructive power of floods.

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Robin Annschild: Wetlands absorb
water. Imagine if you're running

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a bath, and you pull the plug.
And of course, you know it takes

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whatever time it takes for the
bath to drain, but it drains

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pretty quickly. Now, if you were
to fill your bathtub with

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towels, put the plug in, fill it
up, then remove the plug, it's

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going to take a lot longer for
that bathtub to drain. So when

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you have a high rainfall event,
instead of all that rain hitting

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the soil, the ground, the
surfaces of your watershed and

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running out quite quickly, the
wetland is like that towel in

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your bathtub that's absorbing
all that water and it's

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releasing it more slowly. The
cheapest way to prevent flooding

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is one to protect the wetlands
that exist in your watershed,

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and two, to restore drained
wetlands in the watershed. So if

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anything, we need more wetlands.
We need more capacity to absorb

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and regulate flow of water and
clean surface water and inject

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water into the ground.

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Adam Huggins: At this point, for
me, this is gospel, but once

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Robin and the big yellow
machines finish building the

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wetlands and they leave for
greener pastures, then I'm left

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with the daunting task of
getting native plants

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established again on these
highly disturbed sites.

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Thankfully, my organization
grows the plants that we need to

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do this, but there's been this
thing nagging at me. In order to

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grow those plants as part of the
soil mix, we typically use a

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product that most folks are
probably familiar with. It's

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called peat.

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Mendel Skulski: You know, peat.
Fluffy, porous, great for

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growing blueberries, tasty in
scotch, and famously, comes from

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bogs,

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Adam Huggins: Bogs, which are,
as a matter of fact, wetlands.

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Mendel Skulski: Is that a bit
circular? That's a bit circular.

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Adam Huggins: It's not ideal.
And so my colleagues and I have

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been asking ourselves this pesky
question — whould we really

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still be using peat to grow our
plants for restoration wetland

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restoration?

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Mendel Skulski: Seems like a
simple question. How hard could

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it be to answer?

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Adam Huggins: How hard indeed,
well, on today's episode, For

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Peat's Sake, we tell the story
of peatlands in North America

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through one remarkable wetland
and attempt to answer a

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seemingly simple question. But
you know what happens to simple

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questions around here, right?

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Richard Hebda: This sounds like
it would be just an interesting

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sort of ecological exercise,
right? But it became a very,

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very big political issue.

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Mendel Skulski: Come on in, the
water's fine

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Introduction Voiceover: Broadcasting
from the unceded, shared and

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asserted territories of the
Musqueam, Squamish, and

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Tsleil-Waututh, this is Future
Ecologies – exploring the shape

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of our world through ecology,
design, and sound.

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Adam Huggins: To get to know
peat, you have to get to know

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bogs. And so we're going to get
all up in the business of the

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most charismatic bog that I
know. If you were to visit

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Vancouver, nestled between the
snow capped mountains of the

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coast ranges and the Salish Sea.
First, you should say hi to

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Mendel.

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Mendel Skulski: I live here!

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Adam Huggins: And then you
should head south across the

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north and south arms of the
Fraser River through the suburb

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of Richmond, and you will see
heavy industry highways,

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subdivisions, farmland, until
you hit the largest undeveloped

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urban land mass in North
America.

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Mendel Skulski: And you're
thinking undeveloped... urban...

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land mass, what does that mean?

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Adam Huggins: It's a good
question. It basically means, I

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think, that it's a massive wild
land in a major urban center,

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but that it's not a park. There
is no public access here.

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Mendel Skulski: This undeveloped
urban land mass is actually an

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enormous, raised bog.

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Adam Huggins: A big, beautiful
bog by the name of Burns. Burns

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Bog. And since it's nearly
impossible to access for most

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people living here, Burns Bog is
actually kind of a big black

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box. A big black box that every
so often bursts into flames.

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News Announcer 1: Fire crews
launched a rapid attack from the

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air and ground today in the
hopes of knocking down a fast

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growing brush fire that sparked
in Burns Bog along a stretch of

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Highway 17 in Delta.

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News Announcer 2: With an
ecological treasure at risk,

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fire crews in Delta, BC, threw
everything they had today at the

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flames in Burns Bog

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News Announcer 3: but it is a
difficult fire to fight, and

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officials say that it could
continue to burn for days.

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Man on the Street: Remember the
big fire they had in 2005 in the

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bog, just hope it doesn't get as
big.

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Adam Huggins: So what's going on
here? Well, we've got our bog,

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and now what we need is our bog
whisperer.

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Mendel Skulski: Sometimes with
some stories, we have no idea

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who to talk to first. But for
this one, all roads lead back to

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one man.

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Richard Hebda: My name is
Richard Hebda, and I am the

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curator emeritus at the Royal
British Columbia Museum and an

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adjunct faculty at the
University of Victoria,

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historically, in the biology
department the School of Earth

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and Ocean Sciences and School of
Environmental Studies. With

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respect to Burns Bog, I was the
government scientific expert on

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the ecosystem review for Burns
Bog, 25 years ago.

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Adam Huggins: And I will say,
just from my experience, it's

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hard to throw a rock around here
without hitting one of your

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students or one of the students
of one of your students.

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Richard Hebda: We hope people
don't throw rocks at them,

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unless it's because they're
doing very good things and that

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people are scurrilous rogues.

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Mendel Skulski: Don't throw
rocks at Richard's students,

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Adam.

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Adam Huggins: I would never! But
long before, Richard had an

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impressive retinue of students,
je was just a graduate student

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himself looking for a project.

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Richard Hebda: I had a
background in Earth history and

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in botany. So when I came here,
my supervisor of the day, Dr

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Glenn Rouse said, you know,
there's this bog out there in

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the Fraser lowland. We don't
know very much about it.

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Adam Huggins: And when a young
scientist learns that we don't

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know much about a thing, it
becomes almost irresistible.

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Richard Hebda: This was a
particularly interesting,

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different sort of creature, as
it turns out, because Burns Bog

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is a raised bog, and essentially
raised bogs make their own

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environment and essentially
create circumstances by which

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plants that are critical in peat
accumulation can thrive and

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continue. So the whole idea was,
well, when and where did it come

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from? How did it arise and sort
of, how does it work?

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Mendel Skulski: These were the
questions Richard said about

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00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,320
answering in his PhD.

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00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:43,440
Richard Hebda: How did it get
here? It's kind of simple in one

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00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,820
way, the Fraser River brings in
mud, and it filled in the

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00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:53,040
shallow waters, and in doing so,
those lands emerge, like the

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00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,120
back of a whale out of the
water, and in the process, as

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they emerge slowly, first being
intertidal, seawater influence,

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00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,345
freshwater influence. They go
through a process of succession

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of change from lower intertidal
plant communities through middle

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to upper intertidal freshwater
marshes, as you see in the

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00:14:14,025 --> 00:14:18,105
Fraser today, and then the
organic matter accumulated as

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00:14:18,105 --> 00:14:18,645
peat.

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Mendel Skulski: Peat, which is
plants, all sorts of plants in a

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00:14:22,845 --> 00:14:27,630
state of arrested decomposition,
because the wet conditions of

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00:14:27,630 --> 00:14:32,790
this bog in progress don't allow
dead plants to fully break down

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00:14:32,970 --> 00:14:33,750
into soil.

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00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:37,410
Adam Huggins: Which changes the
surface chemistry, and that in

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00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:39,750
turn, changes the plant
communities that can grow there.

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00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:43,170
First herbaceous plants and then
later woody plants.

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00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:46,650
Richard Hebda: So willows, red
osier dogwoods, Pacific

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00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:51,375
crabapple. And then those plant
communities accumulate more

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00:14:51,375 --> 00:14:54,975
peat, but now it's woody, and
woody peat is much more acidic.

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00:14:55,215 --> 00:14:57,915
Adam Huggins: And as things
become increasingly acidic, the

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00:14:57,915 --> 00:15:01,995
plant community changes again.
With Labrador tea, bog

250
00:15:01,995 --> 00:15:06,075
cranberry, bog rosemary,
cloudberry, and the star of the

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00:15:06,075 --> 00:15:10,575
show — a whole retinue of
colorful sphagnum mosses.

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00:15:10,875 --> 00:15:13,680
Mendel Skulski: Ta da! That's
the birth of a bog.

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00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,020
Richard Hebda: And once the
sphagnum mosses begin to

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00:15:17,140 --> 00:15:22,360
establish, they have all sorts
of amazing tricks of organic

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00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,720
matter chemistry, of water
regulation, of being able to

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00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,380
grow in situations where there's
very low nutrients because the

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00:15:29,380 --> 00:15:32,740
peat's accumulating above the
water table. And then they

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00:15:33,220 --> 00:15:38,665
essentially convert this wetland
into their own home, in which

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00:15:39,685 --> 00:15:45,025
peat mosses thrive and dominate.
And once you get into that, they

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00:15:45,025 --> 00:15:47,725
just keep adding more peat and
more peat, as their bodies don't

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00:15:47,725 --> 00:15:52,165
break down, but as they die and
only partially decompose and

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00:15:52,585 --> 00:15:54,625
more sphagnum mosses grow.

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00:15:55,285 --> 00:15:58,045
Adam Huggins: And over the
course of about 4000 years,

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00:15:58,465 --> 00:16:02,410
those remarkable non vascular
plants, the sphagnum peat

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00:16:02,410 --> 00:16:06,310
mosses, have essentially
constructed a dome out of their

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00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:10,390
own dead bodies, with a shallow
living fringe on the surface.

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00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:13,270
Mendel Skulski: And because it's
higher in the middle than at the

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00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:17,050
edges, like a dome, it
becomes... get ready for this,

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00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:18,970
ombrotrophic.

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00:16:19,090 --> 00:16:20,590
Adam Huggins: Ombrotrophic.

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00:16:20,650 --> 00:16:26,155
Richard Hebda: Ombrotrophic
basically means rain fed. The

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00:16:26,155 --> 00:16:30,475
nutrients that enter the bog
that support the growth of all

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00:16:30,475 --> 00:16:33,535
the plants and all the
decomposers, and then all the

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00:16:33,715 --> 00:16:39,295
animals that depend on them come
from the sky, and that's because

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00:16:39,595 --> 00:16:43,675
the bog itself is actually above
the water table, so no water

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00:16:43,675 --> 00:16:47,680
flows into it, because it's
higher than everything else, and

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00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,180
it drains radially outward from
the center of the bog or —

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00:16:52,180 --> 00:16:55,480
sometimes they have ridges
outward — from the ridges to the

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00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,840
margin. So the only source of
water and the only source of

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00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,480
nutrients is rainwater.

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00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,800
Adam Huggins: But that's okay,
because the sphagnum peat likes

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00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,800
low nutrient conditions. And the
other plants that grow there,

283
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,385
they have unique adaptations to
live in this environment. For

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00:17:12,385 --> 00:17:15,205
example, they learn to hunt
insects.

285
00:17:15,505 --> 00:17:18,025
Richard Hebda: Carnivorous
plants are just amazing, because

286
00:17:18,265 --> 00:17:22,645
they're essentially an inside
out stomach, they have the

287
00:17:22,645 --> 00:17:25,585
digestive juices on the outside,
in the case of Sundews, on these

288
00:17:25,585 --> 00:17:31,105
little glands with little
glistening drops of fluid on the

289
00:17:31,105 --> 00:17:34,930
ends of the glands, and those
are your digestive juices. So

290
00:17:34,930 --> 00:17:40,390
imagine the stomach is outside
dissolves insects that fall on

291
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:40,570
it.

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00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:45,010
Mendel Skulski: I love Sundews.
What the hell... pitcher plants!

293
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:47,290
Adam Huggins: I know we could
have made the entire episode

294
00:17:47,290 --> 00:17:48,910
about them, but we're not going
to do that.

295
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:51,430
Richard Hebda: So that's how
these plants get their nitrogen

296
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:54,250
and the other nutrients that
they need, because they don't

297
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:57,115
get them out of the ground very
much, because there aren't very

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00:17:57,115 --> 00:17:59,755
much in an ombrotrophic bog.

299
00:18:00,115 --> 00:18:03,655
Adam Huggins: And these unusual
plants support an abundance of

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00:18:03,655 --> 00:18:04,315
wildlife.

301
00:18:04,675 --> 00:18:07,015
Richard Hebda: In my days, you
know, almost 50 years ago, there

302
00:18:07,015 --> 00:18:10,675
were bears and deer and all
kinds of other wildlife, much of

303
00:18:10,675 --> 00:18:12,475
which is no longer there —

304
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,620
to see a Sandhill Crane just,
you know, 15 feet away from you

305
00:18:16,620 --> 00:18:20,400
in a ditch, just all of a sudden
erupt. A bunch of them erupt! —

306
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,220
Like, oh my god, there's a black
bear sitting in there, you know,

307
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,440
10 feet away from eating
berries. It doesn't even know

308
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:25,920
I'm there —

309
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,240
Then you see these majestic
cranes, taking off as they do —

310
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,240
because you don't make any noise
when you walk on sphagnum. It's

311
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:33,720
cushioned.

312
00:18:35,025 --> 00:18:41,445
It's being like, returned to the
bosom of the bog. You are part

313
00:18:41,445 --> 00:18:47,505
of it, encased in part in it,
cushioned by it, and you

314
00:18:47,505 --> 00:18:50,445
appreciate it in a way that's
just exceptional. Because you

315
00:18:50,445 --> 00:18:56,745
hear the insects. You smell the
smell of the bark, Labrador tea.

316
00:18:57,345 --> 00:19:02,190
You hear the birds like the
Sandhill cranes, or the

317
00:19:02,190 --> 00:19:07,590
bumblebees flying around
pollinating the cranberry

318
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:13,710
flowers, these gorgeous, little
pinkish cranberry flowers. You

319
00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:20,250
feel it, you smell it, you hear
it, it's all there, and you feel

320
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:22,455
as if you're part of it.

321
00:19:23,295 --> 00:19:26,715
Mendel Skulski: These are all
reasons why, for Richard, bogs

322
00:19:27,015 --> 00:19:29,295
are more than just ecosystems.

323
00:19:29,475 --> 00:19:35,355
Richard Hebda: The biosphere
converts part of the Earth into

324
00:19:35,475 --> 00:19:39,495
essentially a superorganism. As
we in our own bodies have

325
00:19:39,495 --> 00:19:43,815
systems that work together and
feed each other and support each

326
00:19:43,815 --> 00:19:49,260
other, this macro organism,
raised bog does exactly that

327
00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:53,520
same thing, the multitude of
species and multitude of

328
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,560
processes on a huge landscape,
that's why I like bogs.

329
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,400
Mendel Skulski: And Burns Bog is
just one very southerly

330
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,660
representative of the
bogosphere, if you will, a

331
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:10,185
patchwork that blankets the
northern parts of the entire

332
00:20:10,185 --> 00:20:10,665
world.

333
00:20:10,965 --> 00:20:14,565
Adam Huggins: Burns Bog is also
representative of many bogs for

334
00:20:14,565 --> 00:20:18,525
another reason entirely. It has
a long and complicated history

335
00:20:18,885 --> 00:20:23,805
of people trying to drain, farm,
and fill it, because when

336
00:20:23,805 --> 00:20:27,465
European settlers arrived, they
simply weren't content to let

337
00:20:27,465 --> 00:20:28,785
sleeping bogs lie.

338
00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:34,590
Richard Hebda: Settler history
goes back to basically people

339
00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:38,550
trying to farm the land. They
dug these ditches going into the

340
00:20:38,550 --> 00:20:41,190
bog, and they were visible when
I was there, or that were

341
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:44,790
invisible sometimes and you
would just fall up to your waist

342
00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:45,990
in peat and water

343
00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:49,950
Adam Huggins: Kilometers and
kilometers of ditches, just like

344
00:20:49,950 --> 00:20:52,890
those that we discussed with
Robin earlier. Speaking of

345
00:20:52,890 --> 00:20:55,575
which, Mendel, you want to know
how you can get a bog named

346
00:20:55,575 --> 00:20:56,115
after you?

347
00:20:56,475 --> 00:20:57,375
Mendel Skulski: Ooh, how?

348
00:20:57,495 --> 00:21:00,975
Adam Huggins: Try, mostly
unsuccessfully, to get rid of

349
00:21:00,975 --> 00:21:06,375
it. Burns Bog is named after one
Dominic Burns, a rancher who did

350
00:21:06,375 --> 00:21:07,815
his damnedest to drain it.

351
00:21:07,935 --> 00:21:12,015
Richard Hebda: And that sort of
went on for a while, until the

352
00:21:12,015 --> 00:21:13,395
Second World War.

353
00:21:13,455 --> 00:21:17,115
Mendel Skulski: The Second World
War, of course, interrupted all

354
00:21:17,115 --> 00:21:22,020
sorts of settler agricultural
activity and also created whole

355
00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:26,160
new economies, including the use
of peat moss for military first

356
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:26,580
aid.

357
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:28,620
Adam Huggins: Antiseptic and
absorbent.

358
00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:31,560
Richard Hebda: There was quite a
bit of extraction at that time

359
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,660
for basically military purposes,
but eventually that became

360
00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:39,840
converted to the extraction of
peat moss for horticultural

361
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,985
purposes. And when that came
around, then there was this huge

362
00:21:44,985 --> 00:21:48,285
extraction of peat from the
middle of the bog. It's organic

363
00:21:48,285 --> 00:21:51,465
material. The peat,
predominantly sphagnum peat, was

364
00:21:51,465 --> 00:21:55,425
removed so the heart of the bog
was taken out. But like my bald

365
00:21:55,425 --> 00:21:59,325
head, there was active living
peat communities all around the

366
00:21:59,325 --> 00:22:02,625
edges, and they essentially
sustained the bog, even though

367
00:22:02,625 --> 00:22:05,730
the middle had been taken out,
and maintained the water

368
00:22:05,910 --> 00:22:09,630
chemistry in the middle, so that
the sphagnum mosses came back,

369
00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:14,370
essentially in a giant pool, or
a giant reticulate network with

370
00:22:14,670 --> 00:22:17,730
ridges of peat that remained in
open pools.

371
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:22,350
Mendel Skulski: So I guess you
can actually teach an old bog

372
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:23,310
new tricks.

373
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:26,475
Adam Huggins: Yes. But
meanwhile, more mischief was

374
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,600
Richard Hebda: At the same time
as the inside of the bog was

375
00:22:26,475 --> 00:22:26,835
afoot.

376
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,720
being exploited, dug out, people
were nibbling on the edges,

377
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,020
converting — conversion
irreversible.

378
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,500
Mendel Skulski: All around the
bog, chunks of the edges were

379
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:43,220
being developed.

380
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,520
Adam Huggins: There was the
railroad construction, and then

381
00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:48,560
the road road construction,

382
00:22:48,740 --> 00:22:51,365
Richard Hebda: A highway went
through it, the one that the

383
00:22:51,365 --> 00:22:54,905
Alex Fraser Bridge, which, my
opinion, never should have been

384
00:22:54,905 --> 00:22:57,365
allowed to be built the way it
was, and the environmental

385
00:22:57,365 --> 00:23:00,065
assessment for it was utterly
inadequate.

386
00:23:00,365 --> 00:23:03,125
Mendel Skulski: And then there
are the cranberry farms.

387
00:23:03,125 --> 00:23:05,525
Richard Hebda: Some of it was
converted to cranberry fields

388
00:23:05,525 --> 00:23:08,585
because cranberry fields have
turned out to be very lucrative.

389
00:23:08,885 --> 00:23:11,645
Adam Huggins: and we'd be remiss
not to mention the gigantic

390
00:23:11,645 --> 00:23:13,730
landfill for the City of
Vancouver.

391
00:23:13,790 --> 00:23:15,890
Richard Hebda: One of my study
sites is now under the dump.

392
00:23:16,610 --> 00:23:19,670
Mendel Skulski: Meanwhile, peat
extraction technology was

393
00:23:19,670 --> 00:23:20,210
advancing.

394
00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:22,850
Richard Hebda: Later on, when
they got very sophisticated,

395
00:23:22,850 --> 00:23:26,030
they would just cut the trees
off, and scrape it off and then

396
00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:28,250
suck the peat through giant
vacuum cleaners.

397
00:23:28,550 --> 00:23:31,670
Adam Huggins: Incidentally,
cranberries are also harvested

398
00:23:31,670 --> 00:23:33,890
by giant vacuum tubes. I have
seen it myself.

399
00:23:34,010 --> 00:23:37,475
Richard Hebda: More sucking.
There's a lot of sucking

400
00:23:37,475 --> 00:23:38,135
involved,

401
00:23:38,315 --> 00:23:41,135
Adam Huggins: And all of this
draining and scraping and

402
00:23:41,195 --> 00:23:45,275
dumping and sucking kept eating
away at the edges of the bog,

403
00:23:46,055 --> 00:23:49,295
but no one seemed to put it much
of a fuss. Parts of it would

404
00:23:49,295 --> 00:23:52,535
periodically burst into flames.
But like so what?

405
00:23:52,655 --> 00:23:54,755
Richard Hebda: It's just a bog.
Who cares? Bog, three letter

406
00:23:54,755 --> 00:23:59,135
word for bad things. Because, of
course, everybody thinks they're

407
00:23:59,135 --> 00:24:02,360
horrible places. They don't
value them and they don't even

408
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:05,000
understand them. They just throw
more garbage on top of them.

409
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,240
Adam Huggins: And some major
industrial development proposals

410
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,560
were floated for the bog.

411
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,600
Richard Hebda: At that time,
which was, I think, in the mid

412
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:17,060
80s. The idea was they would dig
the bog out and fill it with

413
00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:22,040
sand from dredging of the Fraser
River, and then build a huge

414
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:23,000
megaport.

415
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,725
Adam Huggins: That didn't pan
out. And so then a 2500 acre

416
00:24:27,725 --> 00:24:30,905
industrial development was
proposed, and then a horse

417
00:24:30,905 --> 00:24:34,625
racing track, and then the
Pacific National Exhibition, an

418
00:24:34,865 --> 00:24:36,185
amusement park, basically.

419
00:24:36,485 --> 00:24:39,485
Mendel Skulski: But by the 90s,
some folks were beginning to

420
00:24:39,485 --> 00:24:44,045
recognize the value of the bog
and just how threatened the

421
00:24:44,045 --> 00:24:45,005
remainder was.

422
00:24:45,245 --> 00:24:48,830
Richard Hebda: There was a very
strong community group with very

423
00:24:49,070 --> 00:24:52,310
skilled and capable people and
knowledge who could make the

424
00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:58,070
case that this place shouldn't
be filled and turned and burned

425
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:59,270
and whatever else.

426
00:25:00,170 --> 00:25:03,290
Adam Huggins: Finally, following
years of public pressure and

427
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:06,950
failed development proposals,
the province of BC agreed to

428
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:11,015
undertake an ecosystem review of
Burns Bog, and they asked

429
00:25:11,015 --> 00:25:15,095
Richard to lead it, which
initially he was hesitant to do.

430
00:25:15,815 --> 00:25:19,235
Richard Hebda: But the bog had
spoken to me a long time before,

431
00:25:20,075 --> 00:25:24,395
and I thought, okay, well, I owe
it to this, these creatures,

432
00:25:24,455 --> 00:25:28,175
this amazing place, which gave
me my future, which gave me my

433
00:25:28,175 --> 00:25:33,560
job, and has sustained me, has
supported my curiosity. I am at

434
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,560
one with the bog, and therefore,
if I am at one with the bog,

435
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:42,140
then I must be the bog. That's
the way I looked at it. So I

436
00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:42,920
said, I'll do it.

437
00:25:47,220 --> 00:25:49,680
Mendel Skulski: And to make a
long story short, he and a

438
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,240
handful of other scientists did
it! In just eight months.

439
00:25:54,540 --> 00:25:56,700
Richard Hebda: You know, I
pulled it off. I did it exactly

440
00:25:56,700 --> 00:26:02,040
as it should be done in open
public forum, with the

441
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,460
scientists reporting — people
like Ian McTaggart Cowan, who

442
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:09,525
was just unbelievably powerful
when he came. Now, Ian McTaggart

443
00:26:09,525 --> 00:26:13,785
was the zoologist of British
Columbia, a tall man with a

444
00:26:13,785 --> 00:26:18,705
powerful voice, and he just said
that red mouse — the red back

445
00:26:18,705 --> 00:26:22,845
vole — that red mouse, the last
time it was seen in British

446
00:26:22,845 --> 00:26:27,165
Columbia was in the UBC
endowment lands. And I and my

447
00:26:27,165 --> 00:26:29,685
wife saw it in the late 1940s.

448
00:26:30,570 --> 00:26:32,850
Adam Huggins: When the report
was finally published, the

449
00:26:32,850 --> 00:26:36,990
conclusion was stunning. It
stated that the vast majority of

450
00:26:36,990 --> 00:26:41,430
the remaining bog area, over
2000 hectares, would be required

451
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:45,690
to preserve its viability and
sustain its processes. And when

452
00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:49,770
it came down to it, Richard was
called upon once again, this

453
00:26:49,770 --> 00:26:53,535
time by the lawyers, to actually
delineate the area that would

454
00:26:53,535 --> 00:26:57,795
ultimately be protected, which
was a real crisis for him as a

455
00:26:57,795 --> 00:26:58,575
scientist.

456
00:26:58,695 --> 00:27:01,695
Richard Hebda: At that point, I
truly understood that you cannot

457
00:27:01,695 --> 00:27:07,395
be an objective, dispassionate
scientist. You cannot be one.

458
00:27:07,755 --> 00:27:11,715
Just as we face the future of
climate change, we have to make

459
00:27:11,775 --> 00:27:15,540
the choices and the decisions
and not leave for the government

460
00:27:15,540 --> 00:27:20,340
to make or for an industry to
make. We have to work to make

461
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,880
the best decisions that are
possible, and so I did it. So I

462
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,660
drew the lines.

463
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,340
Mendel Skulski: And from those
lines would eventually emerge

464
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,240
the Burns Bog Ecological
Conservancy Area, managed by

465
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,090
Metro Vancouver and the City of
Delta to maintain it in

466
00:27:37,090 --> 00:27:38,625
perturity. The bog had been
drained and sucked, battered and

467
00:27:38,625 --> 00:27:42,885
bruised, but now it had a
fighting chance at life.

468
00:27:43,125 --> 00:27:45,465
Richard Hebda: You know, why
would you fill it and kill it?

469
00:27:45,465 --> 00:27:49,965
Why would you not think of it as
one of the most biologically

470
00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:52,965
spiritual creations on the
Planet Earth.

471
00:27:56,445 --> 00:27:59,505
Adam Huggins: The fate of one of
the most biologically spiritual

472
00:27:59,505 --> 00:28:04,230
creations on Planet Earth, and I
promise eventually an answer to

473
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:09,690
our question about peat. That's
after the break. Now, if you

474
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:12,030
excuse me, I have to go see a
man about a bog.

475
00:28:23,175 --> 00:28:25,995
Mendel Skulski: Hey, if you're
enjoying the show, check out

476
00:28:25,995 --> 00:28:30,975
futureecologies.net/support —
thanks!

477
00:28:42,555 --> 00:28:46,155
Adam Huggins: Driving down this
old gravel road. On my left,

478
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:51,660
Burns Bog. On the right,
cranberry farm, actively

479
00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:56,820
harvesting... group of men out
in waders, water up to their

480
00:28:56,820 --> 00:29:01,920
waists, with a giant vacuum hose
sucking the cranberries that are

481
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,700
floating off of the water
surface and into a giant bin.

482
00:29:06,420 --> 00:29:12,645
Wild. And another gate. I think
this is the third gate. Gates

483
00:29:12,645 --> 00:29:13,185
everywhere.

484
00:29:13,605 --> 00:29:16,245
Mendel Skulski: Wait, I didn't
get to go along for this ride. I

485
00:29:16,245 --> 00:29:19,245
feel so left out. I thought you
said members of the public

486
00:29:19,485 --> 00:29:21,645
couldn't actually get in to
Burns Bog.

487
00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:24,840
Adam Huggins: I mean, they
generally can't, except for a

488
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,420
tiny piece called The Delta
Nature Reserve, which is nice to

489
00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:31,800
visit if you can. But I am no
ordinary member of the general

490
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,240
public, Mendel. I have special
clearance — from a friend who

491
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,080
got me inside.

492
00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:40,860
I don't think I have ever eaten
a fresh cranberry right off a

493
00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:41,340
bush.

494
00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:42,300
Drew Elves: Not a cultivar.

495
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:43,140
Adam Huggins: This is native?

496
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:43,620
Drew Elves: Yeah.

497
00:29:49,485 --> 00:29:50,625
Adam Huggins: that is delicious

498
00:29:51,225 --> 00:29:51,825
Drew Elves: Tart though, huh?

499
00:29:52,485 --> 00:29:54,645
Adam Huggins: Oh, but I love
things that are sour. Oh my god.

500
00:29:54,645 --> 00:29:55,305
Drew Elves: That's good.

501
00:29:55,545 --> 00:29:56,685
Adam Huggins: I love sour
things.

502
00:29:58,305 --> 00:30:01,245
Mendel Skulski: Ah, yes. You
were there to see your good

503
00:30:01,245 --> 00:30:03,225
friend... the cranberry.

504
00:30:04,245 --> 00:30:07,103
Adam Huggins: Of course, and my
colleague, Drew Elves.

505
00:30:07,103 --> 00:30:08,215
Drew Elves: I teach at
University of Victoria in the

506
00:30:08,215 --> 00:30:10,830
Restoration of Natural Systems
program and in the School of

507
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:16,470
Environmental Studies. I am
ecohydrologist by training, a

508
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:19,950
peatland ecohydrologist with a
focus on sphagnum mosses.

509
00:30:21,630 --> 00:30:24,330
Adam Huggins: So I'm standing
out there in the bog with Drew,

510
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:28,530
bobbing up and down on this
thick mat of peat in the sun.

511
00:30:28,650 --> 00:30:30,690
Mendel Skulski: No, I'm not
jealous. Thanks for asking.

512
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,660
Adam Huggins: And we're looking
at this wild variety of colors

513
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:37,740
all around us.

514
00:30:37,740 --> 00:30:39,960
Drew Elves: Like, we're looking
at this field right now, and

515
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,080
there's a cornucopia of color,
right? There are so many greens,

516
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:45,000
so many reds, so many buffs.

517
00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:47,820
Adam Huggins: And these colors
we're seeing, they tend to

518
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:50,640
correspond to different species
of sphagnum moss.

519
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,760
Drew Elves: There are 12
documented species

520
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,265
Adam Huggins: Growing in
slightly different parts of the

521
00:30:56,265 --> 00:30:59,925
mossy landscape, the hummocks
and the hollows.

522
00:31:00,165 --> 00:31:02,385
Drew Elves: The ones that make
the hummocks, they are slow

523
00:31:02,385 --> 00:31:05,625
growing and they're
recalcitrant, meaning they don't

524
00:31:05,625 --> 00:31:10,005
readily decompose. These
recalcitrant hummock species are

525
00:31:10,005 --> 00:31:15,225
really resilient. They can take
up water and stay moist much

526
00:31:15,225 --> 00:31:18,870
further into the drought period
than hollow forming species. The

527
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:21,870
Hollow forming species, though,
they'll grow really fast, but

528
00:31:21,870 --> 00:31:24,810
then they don't have the
specific phenolics, meaning they

529
00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:29,070
don't have those chemicals that
impede breaking down. They're

530
00:31:29,070 --> 00:31:31,470
not robust in that way. They
decay.

531
00:31:31,650 --> 00:31:35,070
Mendel Skulski: Tag yourself.
I'm the not-so-resilient fast

532
00:31:35,070 --> 00:31:35,550
grower.

533
00:31:35,790 --> 00:31:38,850
Adam Huggins: I'm recalcitrant,
slow and stubborn all the way.

534
00:31:38,850 --> 00:31:40,815
Drew Elves: So it's two very
different traits. One's a hare,

535
00:31:40,815 --> 00:31:43,635
one's a tortoise. The hare are
the hollow growing species.

536
00:31:43,755 --> 00:31:46,455
They'll grow really fast during
a time when moisture conditions

537
00:31:46,455 --> 00:31:48,315
are right and temperature
conditions are right, and

538
00:31:48,315 --> 00:31:51,555
they'll grow really quickly. So
because of that, they are

539
00:31:51,555 --> 00:31:54,735
lateral growers. Whereas these
hummocks, they slowly build up.

540
00:31:54,795 --> 00:31:58,575
They have this like apical bud,
meaning a topmost layer where

541
00:31:58,575 --> 00:32:00,975
they keep growing from. And so
they just keep growing higher

542
00:32:00,975 --> 00:32:01,455
and higher.

543
00:32:01,935 --> 00:32:04,980
Adam Huggins: So it's a
beautiful, diverse bog scene.

544
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,700
But at the same time, this is a
part of the bog that was

545
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:11,940
harvested and prepared to be a
cranberry farm before it was

546
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:15,180
abandoned. It's still recovering
from that disturbance.

547
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,720
Drew Elves: The hydrology has
been brought back to within

548
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,740
historical bounds, and that
means that peat forming

549
00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:24,540
processes have been reinitiated

550
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:27,525
Adam Huggins: and Drew is there
studying that recovery.

551
00:32:27,765 --> 00:32:28,965
Mendel Skulski: How is he doing
that?

552
00:32:29,325 --> 00:32:34,185
Adam Huggins: With light and a
very, very nice camera pointed

553
00:32:34,185 --> 00:32:35,265
directly at the ground.

554
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,520
Drew Elves: We can take the
properties of light. The sun

555
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,940
comes in, and it encodes a lot
of information, especially for

556
00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:44,660
plants and photosynthetic
organisms, right? What they use,

557
00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:48,440
what they take. Meaning, what
part of the sun's light that

558
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,080
they use at different times of
year, and then what they reflect

559
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,040
back can tell us a lot about
what's happening underneath.

560
00:32:55,220 --> 00:32:58,400
Adam Huggins: And just as a very
basic example, when sphagnum

561
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,545
moss gets dry, it tends to turn
white, and that increases the

562
00:33:03,545 --> 00:33:07,385
albedo of the bog, helping
reflect sunlight and cool things

563
00:33:07,385 --> 00:33:10,805
down a bit. That's something
that we can see with just our

564
00:33:10,805 --> 00:33:14,945
eyeballs, but Drew is looking at
what we can learn with better

565
00:33:14,945 --> 00:33:17,525
equipment than what nature gave
any of us.

566
00:33:17,585 --> 00:33:19,985
Drew Elves: The affordances we
have in terms of our vision,

567
00:33:20,345 --> 00:33:25,070
they're not entirely objective,
right? I often tell students,

568
00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:26,570
you know, remember that dress?

569
00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:29,510
Adam Huggins: You know the
dress, right Mendel?

570
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:33,650
Mendel Skulski: Ah the dress, of
course I do. It's obviously

571
00:33:33,710 --> 00:33:34,910
black and blue.

572
00:33:35,030 --> 00:33:37,370
Adam Huggins: Oh no, it's
clearly white and gold.

573
00:33:37,610 --> 00:33:38,930
What color was the dress?

574
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:44,150
Drew Elves: I don't answer that
question, because I think as a

575
00:33:44,150 --> 00:33:49,895
lot of people who have a
significant other, it may be led

576
00:33:49,895 --> 00:33:53,495
to a bit of acrimony, and so I'm
not going to say what color the

577
00:33:53,495 --> 00:33:54,035
dress was.

578
00:33:54,935 --> 00:33:58,115
Adam Huggins: So instead of
relying on his merely human

579
00:33:58,115 --> 00:34:02,015
vision, Drew is using the NDVI.

580
00:34:03,695 --> 00:34:04,295
Mendel Skulski: The what?

581
00:34:04,775 --> 00:34:06,946
Drew Elves: The Normalized
Difference Vegetation Index. So

582
00:34:06,946 --> 00:34:10,580
that's where it goes from being
the dress and being subjective,

583
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,060
to being something that's
standardized and reproducible

584
00:34:14,180 --> 00:34:15,020
and decipherable.

585
00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:18,020
Adam Huggins: And I brought us
here just to say that this is a

586
00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:22,400
lot of what goes on in the black
box of Burns Bog. It's basic

587
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,900
science — developing techniques
to better understand all bogs,

588
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,780
by studying the recovery of this
bog.

589
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,945
Mendel Skulski: That's so cool.
And you know, how are things

590
00:34:32,945 --> 00:34:33,485
going?

591
00:34:33,485 --> 00:34:35,345
Adam Huggins: Well, we did
mention that the bog

592
00:34:35,345 --> 00:34:37,505
occasionally erupts into flames,
right?

593
00:34:37,805 --> 00:34:38,465
Mendel Skulski: We did.

594
00:34:38,825 --> 00:34:41,705
Adam Huggins: And that's because
those kilometers and kilometers

595
00:34:41,705 --> 00:34:45,665
of ditches and roads
crisscrossing the bog, many of

596
00:34:45,665 --> 00:34:49,985
them are still actively draining
it, drying it out. And a big

597
00:34:49,985 --> 00:34:55,370
pile of dead dry peat is a
magnet for wildfire. This is the

598
00:34:55,370 --> 00:34:58,670
primary reason why the public
isn't allowed in the bog.

599
00:34:58,790 --> 00:35:00,050
Mendel Skulski: Sure that makes
sense.

600
00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:03,110
Adam Huggins: But in addition to
researchers, there are also

601
00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:06,770
folks in here looking after the
bog, and so I caught up with a

602
00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:11,930
couple of them on a group field
trip on a freezing cold, rainy

603
00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:15,170
day. You're actually going to
hear the raindrops hitting the

604
00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:17,930
microphone, and I just want you
to know that every single one of

605
00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:21,335
them felt like frostbite on my
hand.

606
00:35:21,575 --> 00:35:22,835
Mendel Skulski: Thank you for
your service.

607
00:35:22,895 --> 00:35:26,495
Adam Huggins: It is also on the
flight path of the Vancouver

608
00:35:26,495 --> 00:35:30,575
International Airport, and so
there was so much plane noise.

609
00:35:31,380 --> 00:35:33,600
Markus Merkens: I'm Markus
Merkens. I'm a Regional Parks

610
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,640
Biologist, and I've been working
in the bog for the past 15 and a

611
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,120
half years, trying to take care
of the bog the best I can. I'm

612
00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:43,860
gonna pass over to Sarah here.

613
00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:47,400
Sarah Howie: Sarah Howie,
Climate Action and Environment

614
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,940
Manager with the City of Delta.
I've been working in the bog

615
00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:55,725
since the year 2000, and Markus
and I co-manage the bog.

616
00:35:56,265 --> 00:35:58,905
Adam Huggins: And without much
further ado, they ushered us

617
00:35:59,085 --> 00:35:59,745
into the bog.

618
00:36:00,045 --> 00:36:03,345
Sarah Howie: If you see what
looks like a mud puddle, don't

619
00:36:03,345 --> 00:36:06,165
step there, because it's
basically a sinkhole and you

620
00:36:06,165 --> 00:36:10,605
will fall in. That would be a
fun experience for you, but we'd

621
00:36:10,605 --> 00:36:14,145
rather you not have to deal with
that, so you can just step on

622
00:36:14,145 --> 00:36:17,325
the vegetation instead. It'll
keep you afloat.

623
00:36:28,050 --> 00:36:31,230
Markus Merkens: Bogs are
incredibly complex ecosystems,

624
00:36:31,530 --> 00:36:38,370
and to quote a professor of mine
at UBC, bog ecology isn't rocket

625
00:36:38,370 --> 00:36:42,855
science, it's way more
complicated than that.

626
00:36:42,975 --> 00:36:45,915
Adam Huggins: Markus told us
that the peat in Burns Bog is

627
00:36:45,915 --> 00:36:50,955
five to eight meters thick, and
to demonstrate, he pulled out a

628
00:36:50,955 --> 00:36:52,335
Russian peat auger.

629
00:36:57,615 --> 00:37:00,195
Markus Merkens: So I've just
taken a core sample of the bog.

630
00:37:00,555 --> 00:37:05,520
This peat is about a meter and a
half below ground. This was

631
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:11,400
sequestered at a time when the
Vikings were exploring the

632
00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:16,020
eastern coast of North America.
That's how long ago this was

633
00:37:16,020 --> 00:37:16,380
laid down.

634
00:37:16,380 --> 00:37:18,120
Bog tour participant: Welcome
back to the sunlight.

635
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:22,440
Adam Huggins: So Mendel, as you
know, normally, bogs are too wet

636
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:27,525
for anything but a few stunted
trees to grow. But where we were

637
00:37:27,525 --> 00:37:32,385
walking, there were hundreds of
dead burnt out tree trunks, and

638
00:37:32,385 --> 00:37:36,585
beneath them, thousands of stout
little pine saplings.

639
00:37:36,885 --> 00:37:39,105
Markus Merkens: If you look
around us, you can see these

640
00:37:39,105 --> 00:37:43,485
burnt out trees. These are the
trees that release the cones and

641
00:37:43,485 --> 00:37:48,870
seeds post fire. And if you look
behind me, you can see the

642
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:55,110
lodgepole pine stand very dense.
If you have six trees in a

643
00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:59,550
square meter or square yard, you
have 60,000 stems per hectare.

644
00:38:00,270 --> 00:38:03,150
So that's, that's a huge number
of trees.

645
00:38:03,330 --> 00:38:05,730
Mendel Skulski: Oh, my God. What
is it with us and this season

646
00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:09,870
and cataloging the density of
stands of trees?

647
00:38:09,930 --> 00:38:12,975
Adam Huggins: I have no idea.
Honestly, it is a through line.

648
00:38:13,995 --> 00:38:15,735
There were a lot of pines there.

649
00:38:15,735 --> 00:38:16,635
Mendel Skulski: Yeah, what's up
with that?

650
00:38:16,660 --> 00:38:20,320
Adam Huggins: Well, when you
start draining a bog, you make

651
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,080
it a lot easier for trees to
grow, because it was the water

652
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,260
level that was keeping them out.
And when trees start growing,

653
00:38:26,380 --> 00:38:30,760
they start transpiring water.
Lots and lots of that water.

654
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,940
Markus Merkens: Trees are
hydrological pumps. Pine is a

655
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:38,260
weaker pump than other species,
but in the aggregate, 60,000

656
00:38:38,260 --> 00:38:41,185
stems per hectare push a lot of
water out of the bog.

657
00:38:41,365 --> 00:38:43,405
Adam Huggins: They suck water
out of the ground.

658
00:38:43,525 --> 00:38:44,425
Mendel Skulski: More sucking

659
00:38:44,605 --> 00:38:47,965
Adam Huggins: And then things
get even drier still, and then

660
00:38:47,965 --> 00:38:51,085
they catch fire and burn. And
then the seed cones open, and

661
00:38:51,085 --> 00:38:54,865
1000s more trees start to grow,
and the vicious cycle continues.

662
00:38:54,985 --> 00:38:58,165
Mendel Skulski: So what are they
doing about it?

663
00:38:58,465 --> 00:39:03,490
Markus Merkens: We physically
remove by hand trees, now over a

664
00:39:03,490 --> 00:39:08,650
19 hectare, or almost 50 acre
section of the burn that

665
00:39:08,650 --> 00:39:13,630
happened, which was 37 hectares
within the conservancy area. So

666
00:39:13,630 --> 00:39:15,190
very labor intensive.

667
00:39:15,310 --> 00:39:18,610
Adam Huggins: They rip up and
pile the trees. I pulled a few

668
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:20,410
myself just to be helpful. You
know?

669
00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:31,195
Oh, that is delicious.

670
00:39:32,095 --> 00:39:37,195
Mendel Skulski: ...Are you
eating cranberries again?

671
00:39:37,975 --> 00:39:41,635
Adam Huggins: Possibly, but more
to the point, the trees are only

672
00:39:41,635 --> 00:39:46,075
one part of the problem. Those
old settler drainage ditches are

673
00:39:46,075 --> 00:39:47,275
still doing their thing.

674
00:39:47,515 --> 00:39:47,935
Mendel Skulski: Ouch.

675
00:39:47,995 --> 00:39:52,420
Adam Huggins: And as the bog is
drying out, especially at the

676
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,340
edges, the peat is subsiding
away as it's being oxidized,

677
00:39:57,820 --> 00:40:00,700
with all of that carbon going
back up into the atmosphere.

678
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:04,360
Mendel Skulski: Whoa. It's kind
of like the bog is still

679
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,520
burning, only on a slower time
scale.

680
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,440
Adam Huggins: Yeah, you could
definitely look at it that way.

681
00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:13,945
And this edge of the bog, also
known as the lagg, is where

682
00:40:13,945 --> 00:40:17,905
organic peat meets the
surrounding mineral soils. As

683
00:40:17,905 --> 00:40:20,005
Richard told me, it's really
important.

684
00:40:20,185 --> 00:40:23,365
Richard Hebda: You can't have a
bog without a lagg. Essentially,

685
00:40:23,365 --> 00:40:26,365
the lagg is kind of like that
transitional skin on your body.

686
00:40:26,665 --> 00:40:29,545
If you don't have that, if you
just cut into the tissue and

687
00:40:29,545 --> 00:40:35,470
expose the raw flesh, you die,
you scar right. The more cuts,

688
00:40:35,470 --> 00:40:40,450
the more it's bleeding, the less
chance it has to survive. And so

689
00:40:40,510 --> 00:40:44,950
we need to stop the loss of
water, in this case, the life

690
00:40:45,370 --> 00:40:47,050
blood of the bog.

691
00:40:47,290 --> 00:40:51,490
Adam Huggins: Fortunately, Sarah
Howie is an expert on laggs and

692
00:40:51,490 --> 00:40:52,570
how to revive them.

693
00:40:53,290 --> 00:40:56,530
Sarah Howie: So Markus has been
talking about his big tree

694
00:40:56,530 --> 00:41:00,235
seedling removal project. My
project that I've been working

695
00:41:00,235 --> 00:41:04,075
on for 20 years is restoring the
water table in the bog. So

696
00:41:04,075 --> 00:41:08,575
there's about 100 kilometers of
drainage ditches that were put

697
00:41:08,575 --> 00:41:12,355
into the bog during the peat
harvesting days. So we're trying

698
00:41:12,355 --> 00:41:16,255
to reverse that and stop those
ditches from draining. So we've

699
00:41:16,255 --> 00:41:21,580
got these dams, about 479 dams,
and almost all of them were

700
00:41:21,580 --> 00:41:25,600
built by hand, by people
carrying materials and shovels

701
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,100
into the bog, digging borrow
pits of peat, filling the dams

702
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:33,880
with peat, and actually using
Coroplast boards like these

703
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,100
ones, recycled election signs.

704
00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:37,300
Mendel Skulski: Election signs?

705
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:40,120
Adam Huggins: Yes, even bog
restoration is political,

706
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:40,480
Mendel.

707
00:41:40,660 --> 00:41:42,940
Unknown: After we would have a
local election, they were really

708
00:41:42,940 --> 00:41:46,345
just going to dispose of them
anyway, and so, yeah, they're

709
00:41:46,345 --> 00:41:49,525
buried. They're basically like
sheet piling, and we use them to

710
00:41:49,585 --> 00:41:52,585
block the flow of water in the
ditches and then cover it with

711
00:41:52,585 --> 00:41:57,565
peat so that the plastic is not
exposed. It's buried basically

712
00:41:57,565 --> 00:41:58,585
forever in the peat.

713
00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,380
Adam Huggins: Sarah says this
works so well because the signs

714
00:42:01,380 --> 00:42:04,740
are really light and pretty
tough, you can carry them into

715
00:42:04,740 --> 00:42:07,740
the bog on your back and create
permanent ditch blocks.

716
00:42:07,980 --> 00:42:10,800
Sarah Howie: And because we have
to, you know, walk for

717
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,220
kilometers sometimes to get to
the places where we're working,

718
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:18,420
that's the best material. And we
actually ran this by our

719
00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:22,280
scientific advisory panel before
deciding to put this plastic in

720
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,220
the bog and and they said,
because it's going to be buried

721
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,240
essentially forever in the bog,
it's inert. It's not

722
00:42:29,780 --> 00:42:33,800
contributing chemicals or
nutrients. I mean, I don't love

723
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,180
the idea of putting plastic out
there, but it's buried, and it's

724
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:40,040
not damaging the bog in any way.

725
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,300
Mendel Skulski: I guess
sometimes practicality comes

726
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:47,680
before romance. Are they also
using, like, big heavy machinery

727
00:42:47,740 --> 00:42:49,720
excavators, like Robin?

728
00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:51,400
Adam Huggins: At times, yeah.

729
00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:54,400
Sarah Howie: It's actually the
same excavator operator that was

730
00:42:54,460 --> 00:42:58,000
working for the peat harvesting
folks, and now he's helping us

731
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,080
with restoration.

732
00:42:59,620 --> 00:43:02,020
Adam Huggins: Sarah told me that
they've basically blocked off

733
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,485
most of the ditches in the
center of the bog, and so she's

734
00:43:05,485 --> 00:43:07,345
turned her attention to the
lagg.

735
00:43:07,525 --> 00:43:10,945
Sarah Howie: The next goal is to
restore the edge, and that's

736
00:43:11,065 --> 00:43:13,465
probably going to take me to the
end of my career.

737
00:43:13,705 --> 00:43:16,345
Adam Huggins: But that's all
right, because, as Richard told

738
00:43:16,345 --> 00:43:20,425
us, they have a 100 year
restoration plan in place for

739
00:43:20,425 --> 00:43:23,425
the bog, and we're just a
quarter of the way into it.

740
00:43:23,845 --> 00:43:26,650
Richard Hebda: I think that in
the 25 years that we've been

741
00:43:26,650 --> 00:43:30,490
doing this work and gathering
more knowledge, it's as well and

742
00:43:30,490 --> 00:43:32,290
better than I had hoped for.

743
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:35,290
Adam Huggins: You can see that,
especially in the middle of the

744
00:43:35,290 --> 00:43:35,710
bog.

745
00:43:35,890 --> 00:43:38,530
Sarah Howie: The water levels
are generally where they're

746
00:43:38,530 --> 00:43:41,710
supposed to be, within about
half a meter of the surface,

747
00:43:42,190 --> 00:43:45,490
Adam Huggins: But we are not out
of the woods yet, not by a long

748
00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:45,850
shot.

749
00:43:46,210 --> 00:43:48,370
Sarah Howie: The other issue
that we're dealing with is

750
00:43:48,370 --> 00:43:52,195
climate change. So we've
re-wetted the bog, we've raised

751
00:43:52,195 --> 00:43:55,555
the water table, and now we're
getting drier summers, and so

752
00:43:55,795 --> 00:43:58,615
it's much hotter, and the water
table is dropping.

753
00:43:58,915 --> 00:44:02,455
Adam Huggins: And so Sarah will
continue blocking ditches, and

754
00:44:02,455 --> 00:44:06,595
Markus will keep removing trees,
and Drew and other researchers

755
00:44:06,595 --> 00:44:10,315
will continue to study the
system, and hopefully, in the

756
00:44:10,315 --> 00:44:12,895
meantime, the bog doesn't go up
in smoke.

757
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,540
Mendel Skulski: So it's great to
hear that some level of recovery

758
00:44:19,780 --> 00:44:24,640
is possible, right? At least on
a 100 year time scale. But it's

759
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,300
clear that harvesting the peat
from this bog, along with other

760
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:32,740
disturbances, has had a pretty
profoundly negative impact.

761
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,965
Adam Huggins: Which brings us
back to the question that we

762
00:44:35,965 --> 00:44:41,185
started with. Can we justify
harvesting peat from bogs so

763
00:44:41,185 --> 00:44:45,505
that we can use it to grow
plants, say, native plants for

764
00:44:45,505 --> 00:44:46,285
restoration?

765
00:44:46,465 --> 00:44:49,105
Mendel Skulski: To answer that
question, we needed to talk to

766
00:44:49,105 --> 00:44:50,305
one more person.

767
00:44:50,605 --> 00:44:54,385
Line Rochefort: My name is Line
Rochefort, Professor in

768
00:44:54,445 --> 00:44:58,885
Restoration Ecology, holding a
chair in Ecosystem Restoration,

769
00:44:59,125 --> 00:45:03,910
and also I'm the North American
national expert at the RAMSAR

770
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:04,690
Convention.

771
00:45:05,050 --> 00:45:08,470
Mendel Skulski: Line is widely
recognized as Canada's leading

772
00:45:08,470 --> 00:45:11,110
expert on peatland restoration

773
00:45:11,350 --> 00:45:15,730
Line Rochefort: Canada, in terms
of managing, caring for

774
00:45:15,730 --> 00:45:19,390
peatlands has a world
responsibility, because we have

775
00:45:19,390 --> 00:45:25,195
a lot of carbon stock in our
peatland, 34% of all the

776
00:45:25,195 --> 00:45:27,235
peatlands in the world are in
Canada.

777
00:45:27,295 --> 00:45:31,855
Mendel Skulski: followed by 33%
in Russia. So between our two

778
00:45:31,915 --> 00:45:35,815
circumboreal nations, there are
two thirds of the world's

779
00:45:35,815 --> 00:45:40,315
peatland, which is a lot of
carbon. Now Lynn is quick to

780
00:45:40,315 --> 00:45:43,255
point out that peatland
destruction is a serious issue

781
00:45:43,675 --> 00:45:48,040
at a global and a regional
level, especially in the more

782
00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:50,560
developed parts of southern
Canada.

783
00:45:50,860 --> 00:45:53,380
Adam Huggins: Like the Fraser
Valley, where Burns Bog is

784
00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:53,920
located.

785
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,720
Mendel Skulski: But overall, she
says of Canada's total 128

786
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,800
million hectares of peatland,
only a tiny fraction have been

787
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,060
directly impacted, estimated at
less than 2%

788
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,400
Adam Huggins: These and the
numbers that follow are from the

789
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,880
2022 UN Global Peatlands
Assessment, by the way.

790
00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:16,900
Line Rochefort: So in Canada, if
we go by order of impacts

791
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,760
through time, we have drained
for agriculture, 1.3 million

792
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,020
hectares of peatland.

793
00:46:23,020 --> 00:46:26,380
Adam Huggins: About and after
agriculture, the next biggest

794
00:46:26,380 --> 00:46:29,980
impact to Canadian peatlands is
actually the fossil fuel

795
00:46:30,025 --> 00:46:30,625
industry.

796
00:46:30,805 --> 00:46:34,585
Line Rochefort: Second in line
is the oil and gas and we don't

797
00:46:34,585 --> 00:46:38,965
have national statistics about
all our impacts, but we do know

798
00:46:38,965 --> 00:46:43,405
that it's about 400,000 hectare.
So, it's an order of magnitude

799
00:46:43,405 --> 00:46:46,225
less than what happened with
agriculture.

800
00:46:46,705 --> 00:46:50,185
Mendel Skulski: And after fossil
energy, next comes hydro

801
00:46:50,185 --> 00:46:51,025
electricity.

802
00:46:51,205 --> 00:46:54,565
Line Rochefort: Hydro dams. So a
lot of flooding in peatland rich

803
00:46:54,610 --> 00:46:57,430
area, be it in Quebec,
Newfoundland, Manitoba,

804
00:46:57,670 --> 00:47:01,150
Mendel Skulski: And then it's
good old fashioned drainage.

805
00:47:01,150 --> 00:47:03,970
Line Rochefort: Some drainage
for forestry, for urban

806
00:47:03,970 --> 00:47:06,310
expansion, road development.

807
00:47:06,730 --> 00:47:10,270
Adam Huggins: And finally, we
have the subject of our inquiry,

808
00:47:10,990 --> 00:47:14,050
peat extraction for peat
extraction's sake.

809
00:47:14,170 --> 00:47:17,695
Line Rochefort: One of the least
is using it for peat. Since

810
00:47:17,695 --> 00:47:20,275
1931, about 38,000 hectare.

811
00:47:20,695 --> 00:47:23,515
Adam Huggins: In other words,
the area of peatland that has

812
00:47:23,515 --> 00:47:27,955
been impacted by harvesting for
horticultural uses is absolutely

813
00:47:28,015 --> 00:47:32,515
dwarfed by the area impacted by
agriculture, oil and gas and

814
00:47:32,515 --> 00:47:36,355
other forms of development, all
of which has only impacted a

815
00:47:36,355 --> 00:47:41,020
small portion of the bogs in
Canada. But even so, when you go

816
00:47:41,020 --> 00:47:44,860
to the store and buy a bag of
peat, chances are good that it's

817
00:47:44,860 --> 00:47:46,840
coming from right here in
Canada.

818
00:47:47,020 --> 00:47:50,800
Line Rochefort: Canada is one of
the biggest peat producer in the

819
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:56,500
world. The use of peat in Canada
is really in horticulture. 85%

820
00:47:56,500 --> 00:48:00,220
is sold in the United States.
It's for the professional grower

821
00:48:00,340 --> 00:48:04,825
in greenhouses, cucumber, green
pepper, tomatoes and the

822
00:48:04,825 --> 00:48:05,785
mushroom industry.

823
00:48:06,025 --> 00:48:09,145
Adam Huggins: So for Canada,
peat is largely an export

824
00:48:09,145 --> 00:48:12,925
industry. Historically, some of
that peat was harvested from

825
00:48:12,925 --> 00:48:16,405
bogs in Western Canada, like
Burns Bog, especially after the

826
00:48:16,405 --> 00:48:20,365
Second World War. But for the
most part today, that peat is

827
00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:24,505
coming from the vast boreal
peatlands of central and eastern

828
00:48:24,505 --> 00:48:28,570
Canada. And before we continue,
it's important to mention that

829
00:48:28,570 --> 00:48:32,530
much of Line's research has been
funded and undertaken in

830
00:48:32,530 --> 00:48:35,410
partnership with the
horticultural peat industry —

831
00:48:35,770 --> 00:48:37,390
something that she is proud of.

832
00:48:37,570 --> 00:48:39,970
Line Rochefort: What I would say
is that it's an industry that

833
00:48:39,970 --> 00:48:43,450
really care about managing the
resource, because it's really

834
00:48:43,450 --> 00:48:46,510
their living and usually they
are family based, type of

835
00:48:47,470 --> 00:48:53,215
companies also the been
investing since the end of the

836
00:48:53,275 --> 00:48:56,455
80s to develop peatland
restoration measure or to manage

837
00:48:56,455 --> 00:49:01,315
better. I have always been a big
believer that it's good that

838
00:49:01,315 --> 00:49:03,295
more biologists,
environmentalists and on that

839
00:49:03,295 --> 00:49:05,335
should work with industry to
find solutions.

840
00:49:05,575 --> 00:49:08,335
Mendel Skulski: So Line is
sympathetic to her industry

841
00:49:08,335 --> 00:49:12,175
partners. And to be fair,
they've come a long way

842
00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:12,880
together.

843
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:15,820
Line Rochefort: Before I
started, nobody knew how to

844
00:49:15,820 --> 00:49:20,320
manipulate masses on a large
scale with machines without

845
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:21,580
killing everything.

846
00:49:21,940 --> 00:49:24,940
Adam Huggins: To address this,
Line and her colleagues in the

847
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:28,420
Peatland Ecology Research Group
eventually developed what has

848
00:49:28,420 --> 00:49:32,380
become known internationally as
the Moss Layer Transfer

849
00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:34,600
Technique. To make a long story
short.

850
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,665
Line Rochefort: Uh... it's very
technical, but in peatlands, we

851
00:49:38,665 --> 00:49:42,265
have two hydrological layer one
is called the acrotelm, the

852
00:49:42,265 --> 00:49:43,225
other one the catatelm.

853
00:49:43,465 --> 00:49:46,465
Adam Huggins: The catatelm is
the thick mass of dead peat

854
00:49:46,525 --> 00:49:49,705
that's typically below the water
table and storing most of the

855
00:49:49,705 --> 00:49:50,125
carbon.

856
00:49:50,780 --> 00:49:55,040
Mendel Skulski: And the acrotelm
is the thinner layer composed

857
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,000
largely of living peat on the
surface, kind of like your skin.

858
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,060
No wait, kind of the opposite of
your skin. Kind of like a tree.

859
00:50:02,060 --> 00:50:05,060
Wait, no, kind of the opposite
of a tree. It's pretty

860
00:50:05,060 --> 00:50:05,540
different.

861
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,500
Adam Huggins: Yeah. So it's the
first 10 or so centimeters of

862
00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:10,520
the acrotelm

863
00:50:10,580 --> 00:50:14,240
Line Rochefort: Where there's
all the propagules — spores,

864
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:14,840
seeds.

865
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,585
Adam Huggins: Everything you
need to catalyze the recovery of

866
00:50:17,585 --> 00:50:19,265
a bog that's been harvested.

867
00:50:19,385 --> 00:50:22,205
Line Rochefort: Once you have a
peatland that's been drained for

868
00:50:22,205 --> 00:50:26,825
maybe 20 years, we need, usually
to reprofile to a fresh peat,

869
00:50:26,825 --> 00:50:30,305
because we really need to have a
good contact by capillary rise

870
00:50:30,305 --> 00:50:31,025
of the water.

871
00:50:31,265 --> 00:50:34,565
Adam Huggins: And so the top 10
centimeters of acrotelm is

872
00:50:34,565 --> 00:50:38,270
collected from a donor site,
usually the next site to be

873
00:50:38,270 --> 00:50:41,930
harvested, and then is spread on
top of the restoration site.

874
00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:44,630
Line Rochefort: So once we
spread all our material, then we

875
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:48,590
need to protect it with a straw
mulch. Usually that we use, it's

876
00:50:48,590 --> 00:50:50,930
to create a microclimate,
because the mosses have no

877
00:50:50,930 --> 00:50:51,470
roots.

878
00:50:51,830 --> 00:50:54,530
Mendel Skulski: And in addition
to straw mulch, they add

879
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:55,670
phosphorus.

880
00:50:55,790 --> 00:50:57,890
Line Rochefort: Because
phosphorus is good. It's not

881
00:50:57,890 --> 00:51:00,695
necessarily there to help the
sphagnum, but it's another moss

882
00:51:00,695 --> 00:51:03,935
that we need a nursing plan. We
call it polytrichum.

883
00:51:04,475 --> 00:51:08,015
Adam Huggins: Go into any bog,
and amidst all that fluffy

884
00:51:08,015 --> 00:51:12,155
sphagnum, you're likely to see
other mosses, including the

885
00:51:12,155 --> 00:51:17,015
pointier polytrichum, looking
like a miniature palm tree. Or

886
00:51:17,015 --> 00:51:19,535
as Line calls them, little
aloes.

887
00:51:19,775 --> 00:51:22,775
Line Rochefort: Or pineapple,
because they have all these

888
00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:24,560
spikes along the edge.

889
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,980
Adam Huggins: I found this
aspect particularly fascinating.

890
00:51:28,340 --> 00:51:30,980
Line and her colleagues have
discovered that a little bit of

891
00:51:30,980 --> 00:51:34,580
phosphorus really helps
polytrichum to establish in the

892
00:51:34,580 --> 00:51:38,420
transplanted sphagnum. And this
polytrichum is much taller than

893
00:51:38,420 --> 00:51:39,140
the sphagnum

894
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,140
Line Rochefort: So that's why,
if you get this polytrichum,

895
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,865
nice carpet to establish, then
it binds the peat and also

896
00:51:46,865 --> 00:51:48,485
creates a nice microclimate.

897
00:51:48,665 --> 00:51:52,025
Adam Huggins: And that miniature
forest of polytrichum protects

898
00:51:52,025 --> 00:51:55,025
the sphagnum moss from
destruction through frost

899
00:51:55,025 --> 00:51:58,445
heaving, which otherwise can be
really damaging in northern

900
00:51:58,445 --> 00:51:59,045
climates.

901
00:51:59,105 --> 00:52:01,445
Line Rochefort: The sphagnum
survive there, like, you know,

902
00:52:01,445 --> 00:52:05,165
in the shadow, but they take
over because they are a

903
00:52:05,165 --> 00:52:07,505
co-engineer type of organism.

904
00:52:07,625 --> 00:52:08,645
Mendel Skulski: That's so cool.

905
00:52:08,645 --> 00:52:12,350
Adam Huggins: Yep. And then the
last step, you re-wet the bog.

906
00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:14,330
Line Rochefort: You have to re
wet. You have to block the

907
00:52:14,330 --> 00:52:14,750
ditches.

908
00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:19,610
Mendel Skulski: And that's about
it. Presto. There's a functional

909
00:52:19,610 --> 00:52:20,870
bog, once again.

910
00:52:20,990 --> 00:52:23,450
Line Rochefort: Yes, we do get
the bog at the end of it, we

911
00:52:23,450 --> 00:52:25,910
have a rate of 75% success.

912
00:52:26,330 --> 00:52:29,450
Adam Huggins: Based on Line's
monitoring work. It takes about

913
00:52:29,450 --> 00:52:33,935
nine to 12 years for the bog to
once again become a carbon sink,

914
00:52:34,535 --> 00:52:37,895
and about 20 years to fully
offset the carbon cost of the

915
00:52:37,895 --> 00:52:38,615
restoration.

916
00:52:38,795 --> 00:52:41,915
Line Rochefort: The biodiversity
in terms of vascular plants, we

917
00:52:41,915 --> 00:52:46,415
know that after five years,
we're getting 82% back. What

918
00:52:46,475 --> 00:52:50,495
does not come back easily is
like orchids, but you know, they

919
00:52:50,495 --> 00:52:54,455
have a complicated reproductive
cycle.

920
00:52:54,935 --> 00:52:59,660
Mendel Skulski: So it's pretty
good, but not perfect.

921
00:52:59,780 --> 00:53:03,980
Adam Huggins: Restoration just
never is. But as far as Line is

922
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:04,520
concerned,

923
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,580
Line Rochefort: in Canada,
sphagnum-dominated peatland

924
00:53:07,580 --> 00:53:10,940
restoration is close to a solved
problem.

925
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:13,760
Adam Huggins: She's now turned
her attention to the restoration

926
00:53:13,940 --> 00:53:17,720
of fens, which are a different
kind of peatland, and to

927
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:21,125
mitigating the impacts of
wildfire on peatlands, which is

928
00:53:21,125 --> 00:53:23,165
an emerging and very pressing
issue.

929
00:53:24,365 --> 00:53:28,265
Mendel Skulski: Yes, so to
return to our question, what

930
00:53:28,265 --> 00:53:31,685
does Line think about using peat
for restoration and for

931
00:53:31,685 --> 00:53:32,465
horticulture?

932
00:53:32,945 --> 00:53:36,845
Line Rochefort: Well, I see
peat. It's a bit hard to replace

933
00:53:36,845 --> 00:53:41,405
for now, I think we should not
stop ourselves from finding

934
00:53:41,405 --> 00:53:44,210
solution of other growing
substrate.

935
00:53:44,450 --> 00:53:47,270
Adam Huggins: But she argues,
all of the alternatives

936
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:51,230
currently on the market have
their own issues. Wood chips,

937
00:53:51,230 --> 00:53:54,170
for example, are not a great
replacement.

938
00:53:54,290 --> 00:53:56,690
Line Rochefort: Productivity
when you're using just wood

939
00:53:56,690 --> 00:54:01,130
chips goes down quickly, when
you don't have at least mix with

940
00:54:01,130 --> 00:54:01,790
some sphagnum.

941
00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:05,520
Mendel Skulski: and rock wool,
also used in home insulation,

942
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,660
takes a lot of energy to produce
and isn't biodegradable.

943
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:12,840
Line Rochefort: Piles of things
that goes in the dump, do not decompose.

944
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,795
Adam Huggins: Coconut coir,
while it is a byproduct of palm

945
00:54:16,867 --> 00:54:21,037
plantations in India and Sri
Lanka, has serious labor land

946
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:24,920
use, water use and
transportation issues to consider.

947
00:54:25,220 --> 00:54:28,880
Line Rochefort: Coconut fiber,
it is a good growing substrate,

948
00:54:28,940 --> 00:54:32,540
but it's it's ecological
footprint. You really have to

949
00:54:32,540 --> 00:54:35,480
look at your whole life cycle
analysis,

950
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,794
Mendel Skulski: Plus something
we weren't even thinking about,

951
00:54:38,858 --> 00:54:42,840
perlite, which is often used in
soil mixes, is a mineral which

952
00:54:42,905 --> 00:54:46,116
itself is extracted and
processed in a very energy

953
00:54:46,180 --> 00:54:47,080
intensive way.

954
00:54:47,380 --> 00:54:50,980
Line Rochefort: Make sure you
don't do mixes with perlite,

955
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:55,780
because the perlite, if ever it
goes in the environment, it

956
00:54:55,780 --> 00:54:59,020
floats and then amphibian can
choke on that.

957
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,766
Adam Huggins: Line pointed us to
the only peer-reviewed study

958
00:55:02,837 --> 00:55:07,366
that we could find specifically
on our question, which performed

959
00:55:07,437 --> 00:55:11,542
a life cycle analysis of the
environmental impacts of peat

960
00:55:11,612 --> 00:55:16,000
extracted in Latvia compared to
imported rock wool and coconut

961
00:55:16,071 --> 00:55:20,530
coir. Latvia, incidentally, also
exports about 85% of its peat,

962
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,351
just like Canada. The
researchers found that the full

963
00:55:24,422 --> 00:55:28,739
life cycle impact of coconut
coir was seven times higher than

964
00:55:28,810 --> 00:55:32,702
that of peat. Rockwool,
significantly better than coir,

965
00:55:32,773 --> 00:55:35,180
but still higher impact than peat.

966
00:55:35,660 --> 00:55:38,605
Mendel Skulski: To our
knowledge, there is yet to be a

967
00:55:38,683 --> 00:55:43,644
similar study on Canadian peat,
but it's likely that the results

968
00:55:43,722 --> 00:55:48,295
would be pretty similar. So it
would appear that all of the

969
00:55:48,373 --> 00:55:53,024
commercial alternatives to peat
for horticultural use are at

970
00:55:53,101 --> 00:55:55,660
best, flawed and at worst, worse.

971
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,104
Adam Huggins: Still, does that
mean that we should be using it?

972
00:55:59,168 --> 00:56:03,660
We asked some of the other folks
that we spoke to. This is Drew again.

973
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,450
Drew Elves: I bought peat for
the first time in my life this

974
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,804
past spring, and it was because
we were planting bog Labrador

975
00:56:11,874 --> 00:56:16,087
Tea in this small pocket bog,
this engineered bog in a Place

976
00:56:16,157 --> 00:56:20,160
of Medicine at UVic. How did it
feel? Really complicated.

977
00:56:20,820 --> 00:56:24,152
Mendel Skulski: And Richard is
an interesting case, because in

978
00:56:24,224 --> 00:56:27,918
addition to being a bog
restorationist, he's also a

979
00:56:27,991 --> 00:56:32,192
serious horticulturalist.
Besides Burns Bog, his other big

980
00:56:32,265 --> 00:56:36,176
project is studying the
productivity of potatoes under

981
00:56:36,249 --> 00:56:41,320
climate change. And he strikes a
cautious note on the subject of peat.

982
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,280
Richard Hebda: I think for
certain kinds of horticultural

983
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:51,760
uses, sphagnum peat is the best
choice, and that would be things

984
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,320
like rhododendrons, things that
require acidic environments.

985
00:56:56,859 --> 00:56:59,346
Adam Huggins: As for the
alternatives, he acknowledged

986
00:56:59,408 --> 00:57:03,264
that there are lifecycle issues,
but he turned the question on

987
00:57:03,327 --> 00:57:04,260
its head a bit.

988
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,281
Richard Hebda: What's renewable
on a short time scale? Coconut

989
00:57:09,373 --> 00:57:12,900
husks, not sphagnum moss on peatlands.

990
00:57:13,500 --> 00:57:15,933
Adam Huggins: And while he
recognized the work of Line and

991
00:57:15,989 --> 00:57:17,040
others in this area

992
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:21,500
Richard Hebda: Dr Rochefort has
shown, yes, you can recover

993
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:26,840
small scale excavations of peat
and bring back peat species, but

994
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,080
you have very strong constraints
on what you can do.

995
00:57:30,500 --> 00:57:33,772
Adam Huggins: He also argues
that what is lost is more than

996
00:57:33,845 --> 00:57:35,300
just carbon dioxide.

997
00:57:35,839 --> 00:57:39,199
Richard Hebda: the consequences
on large areas of feed land

998
00:57:39,739 --> 00:57:45,159
being harvested for peat takes
away millennia of organic matter

999
00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:50,859
accumulation and disturbs that
PEAT ecosystem. And on the basis

1000
00:57:50,859 --> 00:57:54,159
of what we need to use peat as
just as an organic matter in

1001
00:57:54,159 --> 00:57:57,759
soil, I think it's not
appropriate, not for large

1002
00:57:57,759 --> 00:58:01,679
scale. This is where we need to
be growing all kinds of organic

1003
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:05,159
matter and returning it to the
ground and into our ecosystems

1004
00:58:05,399 --> 00:58:08,842
Adam Huggins: Like compost, he
says. Lots of compost. It's not

1005
00:58:08,914 --> 00:58:13,147
a perfect peat substitute for
some uses, but for others, it

1006
00:58:13,219 --> 00:58:15,300
definitely gets the job done.

1007
00:58:15,780 --> 00:58:21,260
Mendel Skulski: Yeah, I think we
can all get behind that. So to

1008
00:58:21,260 --> 00:58:26,720
finally summarize the answer to
our question, synthesized from

1009
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,520
all of these conversations, in
the style of Michael Pollan, use

1010
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:37,460
peat, not too much, and whenever
possible, use compost instead.

1011
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,680
Adam Huggins: And if you do use
some peat, always keep in mind

1012
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,400
that what you're using is part
of a super organism.

1013
00:58:45,820 --> 00:58:48,894
Richard Hebda: The bog is a
quintessential embodiment and

1014
00:58:48,968 --> 00:58:53,507
example of what goes on all over
the natural ecosystems of our

1015
00:58:53,580 --> 00:58:58,192
Earth. So the hydrosphere, the
water table, the atmosphere, the

1016
00:58:58,266 --> 00:59:02,146
source of the rain and the
oxygen that they need, the

1017
00:59:02,219 --> 00:59:06,465
carbon dioxide that they need,
the Geosphere, the physical

1018
00:59:06,539 --> 00:59:10,419
substrate upon which the
conditions are such that the

1019
00:59:10,492 --> 00:59:14,446
sediments, the peat, can
accumulate to support all the

1020
00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:18,692
living creatures, the living
creatures of the raised bog,

1021
00:59:18,765 --> 00:59:23,085
which you can draw a circle
around. It's a porous boundary,

1022
00:59:23,158 --> 00:59:27,844
but there is a boundary, and you
can see it and understand it as

1023
00:59:27,917 --> 00:59:31,797
a physical structure living in
equilibrium, a dynamic

1024
00:59:31,870 --> 00:59:36,483
equilibrium, that it's shaping
for itself with the hydrosphere,

1025
00:59:36,556 --> 00:59:40,436
the atmosphere and the
Geosphere. And now we face the

1026
00:59:40,509 --> 00:59:44,756
greatest challenge of all —
where the social sphere is now

1027
00:59:44,829 --> 00:59:49,368
of a scale equal to the other
four spheres in terms of shaping

1028
00:59:49,441 --> 00:59:52,956
the land, but not in
equilibrium. And what's the

1029
00:59:53,029 --> 00:59:57,348
fundamental lesson from those
other four spheres? They will

1030
00:59:57,421 --> 01:00:01,448
bring us back into equilibrium.
And we all have to take

1031
01:00:01,521 --> 01:00:05,548
responsibility to speak for
them. To listen to them and

1032
01:00:05,621 --> 01:00:06,720
speak for them.

1033
01:00:25,700 --> 01:00:29,742
Mendel Skulski: In this episode,
you heard the voices of Robin

1034
01:00:29,830 --> 01:00:35,014
Annschild, Richard Hebda, Drew
Elves, Markus Merkens, Sarah

1035
01:00:35,102 --> 01:00:40,462
Howie, and Line Rochefort. Music
by yours truly, Thumbug, and

1036
01:00:40,550 --> 01:00:42,220
Sunfish Moon Light.

1037
01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:47,149
Special thanks to the Wetland
Project, Brady Marks and Mark

1038
01:00:47,233 --> 01:00:52,162
Timmings for letting us use a
clip from their incredible 24

1039
01:00:52,246 --> 01:00:57,008
hour recording of a marsh on
ṮEḴTEḴSEN Saturna island, on

1040
01:00:57,092 --> 01:01:02,105
unceded W̱SÁNEĆ territory. And
to the organizers of the 2024

1041
01:01:02,189 --> 01:01:07,620
SER North American Conference,
Tony Ballard specifically, thanks.

1042
01:01:07,620 --> 01:01:13,026
If you like what we do here, you
can help us do more. Check out

1043
01:01:13,112 --> 01:01:18,347
futureecologies.net/support to
find out how. Thanks to all of

1044
01:01:18,433 --> 01:01:23,239
our patrons who keep us
independent and ad free, we just

1045
01:01:23,325 --> 01:01:28,217
could not do it without you.
This episode was produced by

1046
01:01:28,303 --> 01:01:33,195
Adam Huggins, and me, Mendel
Skulski, with help from Eden

1047
01:01:33,281 --> 01:01:38,688
Zinchik. And as always, you can
find a transcript and citations

1048
01:01:38,774 --> 01:01:42,721
on our website,
futureecologies.net. That's it

1049
01:01:42,807 --> 01:01:45,640
for this one. We'll see you soon.