Is not all black.

Right.

So it's even just the look of it.

Yeah, yeah.

For a lot of places we go, it's like, whoa, you guys mix.

Yeah, those guys are together.

Like, they're doing their thing.

You think in Europe, coming in with.

With.

With mixed members in the group is more unusual and interesting to.

To people in Eastern Europe than if it was all black singers?

Yes, in certain places, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, yeah, I think just the fact that we are.

Because almost every country we went to, there's probably somebody in our choir who's from it, if you know what I mean?

So we can make those connections as well.

And often when we go, we would also translate our music, translate or transcribe, whatever our language.

So we would do a song, and then maybe the chorus we would translate into Polish or to.

Or to Romania, Romanian, in order to be able to sing something.

And that was so cool because you'd be singing your songs and then you'd hit their language and people would boom.

It's like, wow.

You know what I mean?

That's always great just to see them, like, get so excited.

They're actually singing our.

Do you have something for us in Romanian right now?

Oh, Lord, no.

That was so long ago.

I love how you light up when you talk about these stories.

Basically everything to do with the choir and music.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

And I'll just put as an aside that I've been to Poland six times.

Once with the.

Twice with the choir and once.

And all the rest of the times as a clinician.

And they love gospel music in Poland.

Oh, my word.

Wow.

Yeah.

So.

And when I go there, I'm working with choirs of 400, 500 people at a time.

600 people that are from there.

That are from there.

Wow.

You know, Canada, you have a.

You know, you have a workshop.

You know, you might get fifty hundred people there.

There's hundreds and hundreds.

They just run gospel music.

Whoosh.

So.

So that's cool.

And I think a lot of people around the world think if you don't go to the States, you're not doing anything right.

But we've long time out, figured out that the world is our audience.

It's not just one country.

And.

And they.

They love it so much and appreciate it so much.

So I.

We've enjoyed those times, so that's why I light up.

That's incredible.

Americans definitely do get a different type of recognition, probably in all genres of music.

But I saw a picture of you with Yolanda Adams, Bobby Jones, oh, that was some other great names.

Yeah.

You didn't look out of place or you were just in there for the.

No, but I was.

I was pinching myself the whole time.

I spent a week.

Well, was it a week before?

Four days.

And there was.

I was invited to a very.

It was an invitation only conference with B.

Michael McKay.

And there was only 75 of us, and I was only one of two Canadians.

Everybody else was American.

Wow.

Wow.

And so being there, I mean, at one point I had Patrick Henderson sitting on one side and Bobby Jones sitting on the other side.

And I was just sitting there going, am I in an alternate reality right now?

Like, these are people I just have heard about, right.

And they're talking to me.

Hey, Karen, how you doing?

You know, I'm like, well, this is cool.

You belong there.

That says something.

That says a lot, actually.

But it was tremendous time.

My father was wonderful.

So we're still very close.

That time was very close for bonding for all of us and.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

Still puts a big smile on my face.

Yeah, for sure.

Imagine so.

Wow, you do so much for so many people.

I wanted to ask you about the Power up conference that you do.

Yes, that's a part of teaching.

You've kind of.

Well, I'll let you explain it, but it seems like you've kind of meshed gospel music with just music and musicianship and learning.

Can you tell us a little bit about how that came to be and exactly what you do there?

Yeah, for several years.

I'd say about 25 years now, I get invited to go to present gospel choir in workshops, wherever.

Right.

And I was telling my team, you know, people actually, like, pay me to come and teach them gospel music.

Did you think we could maybe get people to come and pay us, you know, like, come?

And I said, let's try it.

So in 2005, we did the first one and people actually came and until the choir saw it, because they didn't understand what I was talking about.

They didn't understand what the concept of a worker workshop, you know, and so once they saw that people enjoyed it, then we just kept doing it.

And so we just had the 16th annual.

So we've done it for 16 years now.

Nice.

And the.

The idea of anybody doesn't have to be Christians, doesn't have to even be musicians.

It's just anybody who loves gospel music can come to this conference and can take classes and like, there's only over 20, 25 workshops that are offered.

They can come, they can learn about it.

They can learn about it from people who are experts in what they do, and then they actually get a chance to perform.

So they can choose workshops, they can take these workshops, but they can also join in this choir, big choir, which I teach over the weekend, and I'll teach them about four or five songs through the weekend.

And then at the very last thing we do is we come together in a huge mass choir concert.

Yeah.

And usually we have a choir of about 150.

And it is.

It's always off the chain.

And people.

What I love is the people who aren't.

And that's most Canadians.

No experience with gossip music.

Right.

That, that just are just like blown away.

And they come and they're like, oh, this was the best thing I ever did.

Oh, you know, so.

And young and old doesn't matter.

Right.

And all types of different people.

I mean, every kind of person you can think of comes to this conference.

And so we are going to go online with it this year.

It's always held in February.

And about 10 years ago, I went to my chair of the music department at York and I said, I asked them if we could have the conference at York and they said yes.

And so that was a turning point because now we didn't have to be just in a church where there's minimal space and we could start offering instrumental classes, which you can't do in a small venue.

Right.

And they have a keyboard lab there.

They have, you know, a grand piano in every room.

And so.

So it just took on a whole new life.

And we're able to have more people.

And.

And then instead of us teaching the workshops, we have, you know, invite.

We invite all these people to come.

So it's become quite a thing.

It's our.

It's our gift to the world.

And we're going to this year online.

Not.

It won't be, obviously, like everything else, it won't look the same, but it will give us the opportunity to do some things that we couldn't do because we're going to be online.

Right.

So I'm looking forward to the challenge, as we all are.

Have to pivot and adjust.

And you said anyone can sign up for anybody.

And what's the website?

I mean, we'll shut it out later.

Sure.

It's PowerUpGospel CA.

Okay.

And I think some of the information from 2020 might still be up there so people can kind of see what it is.

And of course, there's 2015.

We did a live recording.

And.

And so that album Came out and, and there's video of that up there as well.

Awesome.

Check it out.

I had asked you a question earlier about what you love.

Like, what's your favorite thing about conducting?

What do you hate the most about conducting a large choir?

What do I hate the most?

Just in general, what do you hate the most?

Like touring, recording, people.

Well, recording is tough.

Recording is tough.

But I love people, right?

So I like meeting people and, you know, hanging out with them.

So that's not it.

Sometimes, you know, just like everything else, if you have a big group of people, you know, there's going to be sometimes a little drama, you know, but you, you know, if you're mature and you, you know what you're there about, you can always find a way to work those things through.

Just keep redirecting people back to the big picture and, and figuring out and knowing your, your, who your coursers are.

You know, there'll be those people that.

They'll be fine.

They're very even keeled and nothing phases them.

There'll be the.

Some people, though, that, hey, if you don't say hi to them, oh, it's major disrespect.

So I have to make sure I just touch them on the shoulder when I walk by, recognize it.

You know, Some people, people need different things.

So you just have to be aware and just go with the flow.

And people are.

People could listen, people could do whatever they wanted to do.

So the fact that they're giving up their Seinfeld or whatever and coming to hang out with you, you know, and rehearse and tour, it's amazing, right?

So you gotta give them their props and all the, all of the love and respect that they're owed.

And when you do that, you know, people, people thrive.

So I, I don't really.

It's a lot of work.

It is a lot of work.

I have to say that.

So at this point in my life, I am very interested in getting more help.

Yeah, I am committed to getting more help.

You know, my husband and I, as I said, we've been doing this for 32 years, so we won't be doing it for 40.

You envision an end.

Like you have an end in sight right now.

I listen, I never even finished Vision the Beginning, so I can't even envision the end.

But I do know there is a need for it.

There is.

There is hardly any place in this country that you can go and have an experience in a gospel choir unless you actually go to that church or whatever.

Right?

Very few and so, and I think, yeah, there's definitely a need for it.

I'm about now training people, mentoring people to make sure that this is, this is needed, it continues.

And they say too, when you set up, for example, a charitable organization, this should not be set up for you, this is set up to last.

Yeah.

So you have to succession plan, you have to have that in mind.

But you know what, we have our hands open with it.

If the Lord wants it to end tomorrow, I'm okay with that.

I'm okay with that.

But if he wants us to continue, I'm okay with that.

We recognize that just, you know, time and strength and all of that will have its inevitable end.

So we'll see which one comes first.

Right.

The successor or by strength.

That's fair.

And as a professor, do you see yourself continuing that?

Oh, yes.

And you see, this is the wonderful thing.

Right.

I mean, if it wasn't for my parents, you know, the gospel thing we did when we were coming up, my grandmother, my husband, Toronto Mass choir, I wouldn't be teaching at the university.

Because you wanted to avoid it.

You said, when your parents were teachers.

You said, no, thanks.

And even that teaching at the high school.

I taught at high school for 12 years.

All of that, all of that came to be important.

And, you know, sequential to me being at the university and arriving at the university in 2006, I mean, I feel like I.

Just start your life over again, right?

Yeah.

And I've only been there now, this is my 16th year, so I, I feel like I've just, I still have so many ideas, things I want to do, so I mean, I could, you know, it's not.

Teaching at a university is not as hard as teaching at high school.

So I would need to retire anytime soon.

I'm not really.

I'm teaching like a couple days a week.

Right.

So it's not like you have to, but I definitely want to.

I feel like my opportunity now is to occupy till they come kind of thing.

You know, I'm the first one of my kind.

When I started teaching gospel music, that was the first time a post secondary institution did that in Canada.

So I don't want it to be the last.

Yeah.

Are there more now?

There is, there is.

Humber College started a gospel choir program.

Yeah.

Gospel choir course seven years ago.

Okay.

And they looked at what I was doing and then they said okay.

And so I was very pleased because what that meant is that it's not an anomaly what I'm doing.

So it can, it's possible someplace else.

And Brad is white.

But I tell you something, that man is really good at what he does.

He would go to GMWA for like, three, four, five summers in a row.

And he'd be the only white person out of 4,000 people.

But he would learn and learn and learn and learn and come back.

And I could see the growth.

He was so good at it.

So I'm just pleased he took it seriously.

He's not trying to, like, happy clappy.

Okay, let's sing.

Like, you know, whatever.

He's really, like, learning the real stuff, how to teach it.

He writes out stuff.

He works with musicians.

I mean, it's really good.

So I love the fact that he's doing that there.

And there have been interest, like at McGill.

There's been interest at Brock.

Right.

So it's bubbling.

Yeah, it's percolating.

But what we need is more people.

More.

If you think that you're a gospel, you love gospel music and you're a musician, then you need to go and study it.

Not it, but study music.

Get a degree, get a postgraduate degree and get you into an academic institution.

Because if you're not ready when the door opens, they're going to just fill it with somebody else who's going to make it into a glee club.

Right.

Very different.

So I'm so happy about people like Darren Hamilton, who was one of my first students at York when I got there.

And is doing his doctorate at U of T right now in gospel music education.

And I'm so excited about people who are stepping in and taking this thing seriously and taking it up.

So I've seen some more people, you know, going for the gold.

And so right now I just feel like I'm gonna occupy until they're ready.