I got a message from a listener.

We will call him Chuck and just get right into it.

He said, he says, back in May, so about a year ago, "back in May, I got into

my first ever serious relationship. The relationship-" he's 17, by the way.

The relationship was extremely stressful for me and triggered intense anxiety

due to my anxious attachment style.

Something I wasn't even aware I had at the time.

The relationship lasted four months, and I ultimately just ended it because

I just couldn't handle it anymore."

So first off, Chuck, there's a few, there's four paragraphs here,

but I'll, I'll stop at this one.

First off to Chuck.

Uh, good job recognizing when something is too much for you.

Recognizing, I'm, I'm assuming I don't, I don't know.

Or let's say someone's in a situation like Chuck, recognizing that I am not a

productive member of this relationship and I need to work on myself more in order to

be the best I can be in this relationship.

It takes- that's not easy to, to admit to yourself.

And to follow through on that and risk feeling, all kinds of stuff.

Uh, that takes, that takes a lot of bravery.

So good job to Chuck on that.

He goes on to say, "It's now been nine months since the breakup, but ever since

then, my life has become a living hell.

I've been experiencing constant anxiety symptoms, not panic attacks,"

he says, "along with fatigue, dizziness, extreme overthinking.

Persistent worry, high stress, headaches, migraines, weakened

immunity, intrusive thoughts, physical weakness, appetite changes, tightness

in my chest, and a constant sense of carrying a heavy emotional weight

and tension with me wherever I go.

I'm overly reactive, constantly on edge, jumpy and stuck in a mindset

where it feels like nothing will ever change, like I'm trapped forever.

I feel helpless and extremely hopeless."

So, I don't know what stuck state Chuck is in.

I'm not going to give that diagnosis.

I'm not gonna tell definitively what stuck state Chuck is in.

I'm not saying that whatsoever.

But in general, if someone has these cluster of things going on, assuming

it's not like a medical issue, like a non uh, polyvagal medical issue,

there's a couple things I latched onto.

Number one- I'm trapped.

That to me, signals freeze, helpless, hopeless.

To me, signal shutdown; shutdown is part of freeze.

Uh, but if it was panic, I would definitely say yeah,

we're leaning into freeze.

Constant anxiety- that to me, makes me wonder, is it anxiety or low level panic?

I don't know.

I'm not giving a specific definitive answer to anybody in particular at all.

I don't know.

Okay.

But if, again, in general, if someone came to me and said, I have constant

anxiety symptoms, I would rule out is it actually anxiety or is there

actually a low level freeze that is living within you constantly?

If it's a low level freeze or low level panic, excuse me.

If it's a low level panic, plus feeling trapped, plus feeling

helpless, hopeless, to me, that signals even more indications of freeze.

On top of that, the fatigue, people with chronic freeze oftentimes will

cycle between like freeze activation, so their motor's going, but it's just

locked; it's trapped within; it's frozen.

Then feeling drained and they kind of cycle back and forth between

high intensity and drained.

Extreme overthinking, not just overthinking.

Extreme over to me- again, that is again, signals to me there might

be some freeze activation going on.

Persistent worry, high stress to al, to me that could be, could

be flight fight, could be freeze.

Intrusive thoughts.

To me, that signals, that could be any defensive state, but

that could be a freeze thing.

Physical weakness that's like shut down.

But it could be on the, the fatigue end of the freeze fatigue, freeze fatigue cycle.

I think in, in the newest polyvagal theory book.

Was it the SSP one?

They called that the cyclic defense loop.

I believe it was Freeze to shut.

I'm sorry.

Freeze.

Yeah.

Freeze to shut down.

Freeze to shut down.

Freeze to shut down.

But it also, we could have the same defense loop of shut down to fight.

Shut down to fight, shut down to fight.

Back to this intrusive thoughts, physical weakness, appetite changes, tightness

in my chest, tightness in my chest.

That could be flight fight that could be freeze.

And a constant sense of carrying a heavy emotional weight and tension.

Tension to me, signals freeze also.

So, oh, overly reactive, constantly on edge, jumpy, um, to me, I, I'm hearing

a lot of potential freeze activation.

Freeze has shutdown in it, so there could be moments of more freezy kind of stuff.

It could be moments of more shutdown kind of stuff.

Freeze also has sympathetic activation, flight and fight.

So one in freeze could have more of a flavor of sympathetic, but

also sometimes more shutdown and vacillate between the two.

Someone in freeze could have lots of freeze panicky flavor and then, um,

this sort of shutdown fatigue thing and vastly between the two of those.

So again, I, I don't know, Chuck, I have no idea.

I'm not telling you what your state is.

In general, when I hear these things from a client, I would wanna rule out,

well, how much freeze is in your system?

That that, that's where I would go with it.

Chuck goes on to say, "Based on everything I've been reading,

researching, and reflecting on.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm living in survival mode due

to a dysregulated nervous system.

The tricky part is that I can't fully identify which dysregulated state

I'm in, but I know it's not shut down because I'm still able to function

outwardly like a normal person.

I can go out, attend school, hang out with friends, laugh at jokes, feel some

connection and have fleeting moments of presence or hope, but deep inside it feels

like there's a constant war going on.

I feel broken and convinced that I am either going to get worse

or stay stuck like this forever."

You know, we easily could have a stuck defensive state, consis- like

chronically- it's just always there.

But in some situations, some circumstances, it's not

there or not there as much.

And what you're describing with the connection with friends, laughing

at jokes, feeling connection, going out, going out, going to school.

So being outside, being around other people that we like to be around,

that's an easy way for us to have less defensive activation, if not actual

safety activation and feeling connection.

So that that's, that's not uncommon at all.

Having a stuck defensive state doesn't mean that you're like

constantly in the worst of it.

More typically what you'll see is that there's a stuck defensive

state that is worse at some times and better at other times.

It's worse at home in the dark, at nighttime maybe, or in the morning when

people wake up, there might be a big spike of whatever they're going through.

But when they go to work or when they go to school or when they see

friends, you know, life is okay.

That's super typical.

It just, it depends on what safety cues are coming in.

So when you're laughing with friends or smiling with friends or you hear

their voice, yeah, you're gonna feel less defensive activation.

So that that doesn't exactly rule anything in or out 'cause I know

you had said, uh, you don't know what dysregulated state you're in.

So anyone, we could have any stuck defensive state and then feel

better in some situations that that could be any stuck defensive state.

What I will add to this though is for Chuck and for everybody,

good job putting pieces together, researching, reading things, reflecting.

That's awesome.

And even if you can't figure out, I'm actually, I'm surprised in my, in the

Untucking Academy, I, I ask people as they come in, what stuck state they're in and

it's, I don't share that with anybody.

And I'm surprised how many people say they don't know.

So even if we don't know, and Chuck, this sounds like you and

maybe many people listening, even if we don't know, you can still,

there's a lot of good that can come.

You know, even if you don't know.

If you don't know what stuck state you're in, you, you probably know that

you don't have enough safety activation.

So you can still practice that.

You can still practice feeling safe and building up the strength

of your, your safety state.

You don't have to know what state you're in to do that.

Maybe it's helpful in general to kind of act as a container.

Like I, I understand that cognitively, I understand what's happening

within me, and that can help to reduce defensive activation.

But if you can't figure it out, that's okay.

I would say just focus more on the safety activation, focus more on practicing

mindfulness, focus more on connecting with people, sharing laughter, connecting

with your pets, getting outside, just do those kind of basic mindfulness

and connection and nature pieces.

If we could do that, that can, that can do a lot of good and that can

actually help reduce the intensity of our defensive activation.

And if that can reduce, then we might be thinking more clearly and the pieces

might come together, uh, more clearly.

All the stuff that you research and all those free things you collect

into some random folder on your hard drive, all those like free download

this and then blah, blah, blah.

All those things all of a sudden might make more sense because you have more

safety in your system and you're like, oh yeah, there was this thing I downloaded

that I can make use of now, or that book that makes more sense now, or that

skill or that technique or whatever.

So even if you, I guess point being, if you don't know what your

defensive activation is, that's fine.

Focus more on safety activation.

And that really is, even if you did know what defensive state you,

you're in, the safety activation is the the next step anyways.

So, feeling safe and consistently practicing safety every day, even

in like little moments- that is huge right now in the Untucking aca,

and this, this is true for anybody.

I don't think we're ever done practicing and feeling safe.

We have to kind of keep coming to that uh, every day.

In the Untucking Academy, we're doing this 30 day challenge where there

are, or you do a 20 day challenge spread out over 30 days basically.

You get this mini safety challenge to use your senses mindfully every

day, or one sense mindfully each day.

And there are people taking the challenge who are unstuck or significantly

unstuck-er compared to the past.

I'm in there doing it as well.

There are people that are working on it and people that are brand new.

So even though there's different levels of unstuckness taking part in this challenge.

It's still beneficial for the person who has a lot of defensive activation.

Hopefully they feel safety for the first time and again and again and again.

And by the end of the 30 days, they actually have built their safety state.

Or at least they've built a lot of, uh, familiarity with it.

I had to say that like four times.

That was my fourth take, trying to say that word.

At least they've built a lot of familiarity with their safety

state at the end of that 30 days.

And now they can keep building it and building it and building it.

So point being, if you don't know what state you're in, that's, that's okay.

You can still focus on safety and so much good could come from that

if you do small daily practices.

I don't believe- I don't think that we are broken- anyone

listening to this is broken.

I don't think my clients are broken.

The freaking podcast is called Stuck, not Broken.

We're stuck.

If you buy into the polyvagal stuff, in my opinion, you essentially must buy

into the idea that we are temporarily stuck, not broken permanently, not born

this way, but we've been through one thing or many things that have left us

in some level of stuck state activation.

I think it applies to everybody.

We each have some level of stuckness.

So no, we're not broken, and that means no things are not hopeless.

And no, you're not helpless.

If you can practice, and it is everybody, if you can practice feeling safety every

day for 30 seconds, you're not helpless.

That that is an avenue- that is an avenue for hope.

That's an avenue for change.

Sound like I'm running for president or something.

Maybe like 10, 20 years ago.

Geez.

Um, that's an avenue though.

Seriously.

So things are not hopeless and, and you're not helpless because you're

learning, you're reading, you're trying to put things in practice.

You're reflecting, you're reaching out, asking for help.

You're- so that's not helpless.

You're, you're already doing things.

Now, the, the goal might be to focus more on safety and yeah,

maybe figure out what stuck state you're in, but focus on safety.

That is not helpless.

That is, that is hope.

There there is, there's an avenue here that is providing hope, that's

providing motivation, encouragement, some positivity that, that is hope.

So, not hopeless, not helpless, and definitely not broken.

That does not compute.

That does not compute.

So congratulations for Chuck and everybody.

You're not broken.

You're maybe we're just stuck.

Chuck wraps it up and says, "I don't feel like myself anymore.

I was living the best time of my life before all this happened.

I can't take it anymore.

Please, can you tell me there's still hope?

That I can find myself again and feel normal someday.

I'm still 17.

I'm so young and I desperately need some advice by someone

who has knowledge on this.

You dear Mr. Justin are the best destination I I could ask for help."

I'm honored, Chuck.

Um, so I've already answered like, yeah, there's still hope in general.

For you, I would say so as well.

Yeah.

There's still hope that I can find herself and find herself

and be normal again someday.

I don't know what normal means, but in my opinion, as we get more

and more and more unstuck, we don't find the way things used to be.

We actually find, I think, a better version.

The way things used to be.

Probably are not as cut out as we think they were.

We often times, especially my clients, live a life where there's some St

stuck defensive state, but we deal with it or don't deal with it.

We cope with it through making ourselves feel better by binge watching tv,

overeating, undereating, working out, overly working out drug use.

You know, like just tons of stuff that we do to make ourselves feel

better, but it doesn't solve it.

So that doesn't last very long.

Or it can last for actually for quite a while, but eventually

it doesn't work anymore.

And that's where things really change.

That's where the defensive activation takes over because

the old strategies are no longer containing the defensive activation.

Someone says, someone says to me, I wanna be back to my old self.

In my mind, I'm like, well, your old self probably was going through the same stuff.

You just were blocking it out and that's not healthy.

Why would you wanna go back to that?

So when we get more and more unstuck, we don't, I don't think

we go back to our old self.

We become this other, well, we're, you're still yourself, but you become

the unstuck version of yourself.

You become someone who actually has more safety in their system, more

capacity for connection and peace and mindfulness and connecting with others

and yourself and the environment.

That's, that can't be the same person, right?

So I don't know why we want that.

If you're honest with yourself,

it's probably not the way you remember.

You know, maybe you kicked butt in life, maybe you kicked butt in your business

and you got a ton of stuff done, but you were ignoring what was happening

within you, and you took that activation and you put it towards your business.

Or you took that activation and you put it into, uh, eating too

much sugar . Life probably was not as good as you think it was.

You probably were not as happy as you think you were.

I don't know you in particular, dear listener.

Chuck, this is not about you.

Um, in general.

In general, it things probably weren't as great as you thought they were.

So let's not go back to that.

Let's go back to, or let's move forward into whatever the hell

comes of you when you get unstuck.

And we don't know what that is and that's gonna be beautiful, you know?

So, Chuck, I hope that you do get unstuck from whatever you're going through

right now, and I hope you do deal with whatever attachment stuff you mentioned,

but we don't know what 18-year-old Chuck is gonna be like ...19, 20.

You know what I mean?

Like it's not gonna, I don't think it'll be the same version of you that you

think you're leaving behind, so, or that you're, where you'll never get back to.

one final thought is that each of us has pains that we're carrying

around from the past, obviously, and then something new happens.

And there's, we can, we can compartmentalize these.

We can look at the new thing like this.

I went through a breakup and now I have all these feelings that are coming up

inside of me that, uh, are a bit much.

Those are obviously connected to the other past stuff, but it's okay to deal

with and compartmentalize- these feelings I'm having present day are connected

to the past- but really we're triggered by this more recent thing, so I'm gonna

focus on these feelings as you do that.

Past feelings might come up, and it's okay to, to like put those in the back

burner and respectfully tell those past feelings, you know, it's not time yet

and I'm gonna give you more attention when I'm ready to, but right now I'm

gonna focus more on the present day stuff until I can handle going into the past.

You'll know you can go into the past- past feelings- because you want to,

because you feel self-compassion, because you feel curious about all

of you, not just the good stuff.

As you build your safety state, you'll be able to handle the,

the more present day feelings.

As those clear up the past emotions are gonna get excited

and say, now pay attention to me.

Give us some love.

And if you can say to the past emotions, okay, I'm ready.

You know, I have compassion for you and I want to feel you, and I want to

just let you be present here with me.

I know we're personifying our feelings here.

But if you can do that, if you have actual compassion and curiosity about the past

stuff, then it's time to feel into it.

Not easy.

You have to have a lot of safety, state activation and really be

anchored in your safety state in the present moment to to allow those past

emotions and experiences to surface.

So I guess to bring it back to what Chuck was saying- there might

be a present day context that's triggering all kinds of dysregulation.

So it's okay to compartmentalize and feel and just sort of soften

and deal with those things.

And then as you're ready to then turn to the past emotions.

The, actually one more thing I'll add in here.

Saying I you, and not, again, not Chuck, but everybody saying

I have attachment issues.

That's okay, I get it.

But what does that mean?

What does that feel like?

And what I would invite you to do is don't explain it.

Describe it.

I have a client, young woman, who has attachment issues and she wants

to work on her attachment issues.

And I say, okay, well, well what does that feel like?

And she starts to explain, well, parents and this and that.

And it's like, no, no, no, not, I don't want you to explain it.

I want you to describe it.

What is it you're going through?

What, when you say you have attachment issues, how could you tell on your body?

What does that feel like?

And what that's gonna lead you to is, well, it feels like hopelessness.

It feels like helplessness.

Maybe it feels like abandonment.

It feels like rejection.

It feels like insecurity.

It feels alone.

So instead of explaining the attachment issue, I would encourage each of us,

what does it feel like if you can, that would be one of those deeper level older

emotions that are still hugely relevant day to day, but we can compartmentalize

those and, and give attention to those as we are ready to, not right away as

we are ready to with lots of safety.

And then when you're ready to, don't explain, describe, describe what

you're going through emotionally or in your body related to whatever

attachment issues that you say you have.

If you've got attachment issues, if you've got a breakup, the feelings

you have from it are normal.

It's okay to feel that way.

You're not broken, you're not defective.

It is a normal response or expected response to loss.

Like in a, in a breakup, you're losing something.

There's grief there.

At the very least.

There might be anger, there might be anxiety, and now we feel alone.

Now we feel insecure.

All kinds of stuff might come up and those, that's totally expected

and it's okay to feel that way.

We just wanna balance it out with being in the present moment.

With spending time with friends, with, you know, checking on our breath.

We just wanna balance it out.

That, that, that's, that's it.

Otherwise, it's super normal.

If you had attachment issues growing up, the way you feel about it now is expected.

It's normal.

It's okay to feel that way.

If you feel alone or, or, um, lost or abandoned or rejected

or whatever- that makes sense.

You know what you feel.

It makes sense why you feel that way.

Anybody with your life probably would feel the same way.

And so give yourself permission to feel that way with safety.

With safety.

Okay, that's it.

Hopefully this was helpful for you.

Dear listener, Chuck, thank you for writing in with the question.

I love answering questions.

If you have one for, uh, yourself, dear listener, send it in.

And if it's, uh, something that sparks my, my inspiration, then uh, I would

love to address it here on the podcast.

Thank you again, Chuck.

As far as like everyone, for as far as your next step.

There.

There's so much good that can come from those mini mindfulness practices.

Tapping into stuck defense is probably too much, so focus on using one of

your senses for 30 seconds once a day.

Start there.

I know it's small, but that is absolutely a step forward.

If that's not something you're doing currently, please take the time to

do that every day for 30 seconds.

And then build on it from there.

Thanks again for joining me.

Bye.

or they've at least built a lot of Fili, Fili, or at least they've

built a lot of famili, or at least they've, or at least they,