Hi there, friends. Thanks so much for joining us today. I'm Haley and I'm Johnny and you're listening to Johnny Johnny Haley daily day of fun. Who do we have on today? I don't know. Let's dive into the episode and find out...... Well, welcome everyone to another episode of the Johnny Haley day of fun podcast. I'm Haley with my brother, Johnny. And today we are joined by will survive horror and true crime author. Hello. Well, thank you for joining guys. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Uh, first of all, I just want to say it's my birthday weekend. So happy birthday. Thank you. so much. So I'm over. So I want to apologize to the editor of this, uh, of this program in advance. Um, you know what? I think if you're a little bit hungover, that's probably on brand, right? If you're in the horror, true crime realm, I think, you know, a little bit of self medicating when you're in those subjects is probably, you know, for sure. It's apropos for sure. So, um, you know, we connected, I was looking at initially you, uh, your Amityville. Um, book is what I was looking at. So if we can kind of start with your, you have a background in forensic science. Yeah. And you started with the true crime writing. So give us a little bit of a rundown of, of how did your creative journey begin then if you started with sort of a science background? Yeah. Uh, wow. So I guess I started, like you said, with true crime. Uh, I started writing, you know, while I was going to school and, uh, always been very, uh, interested in forensic science. Uh, you know, the, the, the true crime shows and, and it just did. You know, it's something I was addicted to it. So I wanted to find out what was really behind it. You know, you watch like CSI and all this stuff and you see like these people, these CSI people with guns and stuff. And it's just, it's not realistic. And I wanted to learn. Yeah. You know, so I wanted to learn the ins and outs and, uh, I went to school for it. And I really, really, you know, Just love getting into the details of, of, uh, the murders and, and finding out what happened, these mysteries. How do we, how do we find out what happens? How do we fill in these gaps? So I started, I actually started, believe it or not, uh, writing the Jonestown book, my Jonestown don't drink the Kool Aid. Yeah. Yeah. Believe it or not, that took about seven years. I actually was, it's a very, that case is a very involved case and it's, it's such a. Big, you know, the, the huge event, obviously, like the Jonestown event is probably what most people know, but like the, the buildup to it and, and what sort of what it took to get there is, yeah, it's a lot of information. Yeah, it took a few years just for them to get to Jonestown. It took several years. I mean, Jim Jones was, you know, um, working in, in the community in San Francisco. He was working for, you know, the mayor who actually later on wound up, Mayor Moscone wound up getting, uh, killed. And then, and if you remember, Harvey Milk also was killed. And, you know, a lot of people believe that those things were linked. To Jonestown. So yeah, there was a lot of things going on for sure there. Yeah. That's interesting. Mm-Hmm? you gotta check, uh, you gotta check that out. There's, I, I have a couple of references to the book to that, but, um, you know, Jonestown, I started and I, I knew Jonestown as a kid. I, um, Mm-Hmm. you know, being, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm a mix biracial, so I'm black Italian. So for me, that was, uh, you know, the kind of, uh, 90% or 80 to 90% of the population in Jonestown. They were black. The courts were handing, you know, uh, uh, black children over to Jim Jones. He was in Jonestown, you know, basically the only communication they had was him over the radio, over the speaker. And he was telling them, if you go back to the United States, they're putting black people in prison camps. You got to stay here. You know, he wanted everyone. He wanted people there. And. I guess for the mass murder suicide there, there's a lot. I, I don't wanna get too far into the jokes down because you know, obviously Oh yeah, no, you could do several podcasts on jokes down. Yeah, I can go on and on. But I do believe that there was some type of, you know, CIA type connection with Jim Jones. And I, and I detail that in the book and I, I detail his whole life. But that kind of, that book kind of took me in a different direction and I wasn't sure what I was gonna do, and I kind of put it down. I was like, uh, I don't think I really have like a. a story here. And then, uh, along comes Amityville. A friend of mine came to me and said to me, you know, hey, uh, I've been investigating this Amityville thing, you know, there's, it's a real house and I said, what, it's a real, I thought it was just a movie. I didn't know that it was real. Yeah. What's crazy about Amityville is we went out there, we took a couple of photos, okay. I'll try to make this quick because it's a long story, but I took, I took a couple photos, we, we saw some orbs in the photos and we're like, What is this? You know, we brought it back to my place and we're hanging out. I had this little wine, wine fridge and I had some, uh, wine and I actually, and I, and I, and I like to, I know people, people say, well, you know, you had, um, you had Merlot in the fridge. So I like to chill my Merlot also however you like it. Yeah, as long as it does the trick. So all of a sudden we're looking at these orbs in these pictures and we're researching Amityville my place and all of a sudden I hear a pop and I look down and there's Merlot at my feet And it's like it, so somehow it exploded in the fridge and it's literally like at my feet, it was like blood. There was like really mysterious things that happened while I was like just, just, you know, researching. Then those orbs, we took them to, uh, Bergen Community College in Paramus and we had a film department. I had a friend there. We had them review it for, you know, whatever it could have been. And they ruled out like pollen, water spots. You know, all this other stuff. And they just said, we don't know what it is. And it was very creepy. So from that point, it was just kind of piqued my interest. I started researching, researching them when I saw the murders. You know, obviously of how that went down with six family members killed in their bedroom with a high powered rifle that you could hear like five blocks away and no one woke up out of their bed. I mean, it just, all these things started coming together. True crime, paranormal, you know, everything you can imagine is in one case. I'm like, this is This is it, you know, right? So that's how I got it caught me, you know, it's kind of interesting. I mean, it's a little fun, almost like, you know, a paranormal sort of signal to you, you know, the merlot on the floor, like, follow this little blood trail, see where this goes for you. I'm telling you. And the last thing that I was waking up at three 15, three o'clock, three 15, every morning, when I was when I first said I was going to write the book, I swear. And one time I woke up. And I knew I said, Oh my God, I'm not looking at my phone. I put it under the pillow. I took it out like 10 minutes later. It was 315. I'm like, this is I got to write. Yeah, that really happened. I'm serious. No, I believe you. And it's, it's, I mean, it's interesting how, you know, so I'm also a writer. And I do think that To some degree, you're kind of channeling when you start writing, whether you're doing something where you're researching or whether you're writing fiction, like you're connecting to some kind of energy that's driving you forward and nudging you to explore this way, explore that way kind of thing. And it's, you know, it's kind of a, it's an An interesting exploration when you're a writer. I think that you kind of have to like, you connect to this story energy in some way and then you have to follow it where it goes, right? I think that also in the universe to like what you put out there, you know, it really does come back to you and you tap into some energy. Source, you know, and so yeah, for sure, I that's really interesting. I love that. So it's it's kind of like Amity almost sort of found you right more than you sort of found Amityville to go after as a story. I mean, I yeah, 100 percent I was not I was not that was not on my itinerary of things to write about or anything. And it's great. So over the years I was able to connect with, you know, a lot of the Amityville people. Some of them unfortunately passed away. I had a chance to meet Lorraine Warren, uh, which was an amazing experience. Um, you know, Laura Didio, um, uh, you know, I, I speak to every once in a while. She's, she's, she's my, you know, one of my Facebook friends and she's read my book and she, you know, I, she's, she's amazing. She was one of the, she was one of the first people who investigated the house with the woman. Um, and, and also, um, you know, I speak to, um, uh, you know, I speak to the little, little kid that was actually in the house. I, I, I don't know if you know, um, Christopher Quarantino, we speak every once in a while. Um, so he's, you know, it's pretty cool just to be like kind of a part of that community. And it's obviously unfortunate what happened. I mean, you know, with the family members, I mean, it's a terrible tragedy. Right. I mean, but it's, it's, again, it's, you know, tapping into an energy, right? Like it's interesting to kind of explore that because you kind of have to. I, you know, obviously everyone has to decide for themselves what they believe, but, you know, there's, I think there's a lot to be said for there being some kind of like other energy, whatever you want to call it, that, you know, attracted, not just what happened, you know, like, can you talk maybe a little bit about that? And I, you know, I do want to touch on your other books and things, but like, I am just fascinated and interested in like the, the Amityville Story and the murders that happened. Like it really does kind of seem like there was maybe a very strange energy that would kind of existed, like maybe before with, like, or did you find that, like, what would you say you found, you found there? It's a total enigma. I mean, even when I went out there, it was weird. We had a couple of things happen. We were investigating it. Um, you know, basically we were canvassing the neighborhood and nobody really wanted to talk about it. I mean, Uh, we went up to this one house, which was close by the house, and they said, you know, you should talk to this guy. He, he's, he lives like four houses down, and he's an older man. His name was Ed Kangasier, 90 years old, and he's like, he lived there even before that house was there. Like, he's lived there for, the original house was moved, and so they put another house on there, and the house was too big, so that's why it's faced sideways. So the two windows are facing the street. The front door is not facing the street. The two windows look like eyes were facing the street. That's why, because it was too big to put on the lot. So they have to put it on sideways. So this guy was there before. The actual, that house was even put there. So anyway, you know, we went to him and we were, we, we met with him and he, it was just like, all these weird things started happening. We were driving down the block to go to meet him. And we were like, he was like, park here, park here. And we're like, turning, he's like, turn the car. We were like arguing. And we, this is one of my friends and we went and hit into a tree. Like, we hit into a tree. Later on, we're interviewing Ed that day. And he tells me that. Um, his, his next door neighbor, Miles, whatever his name was, was driving with a bunch of friends who, who never saw the Amityville House and wanted to see it. And as they're driving by, they go by and they hit into a tree. Like right by the house. I mean, come on, you got to be kidding. That's, we were like, you got to love those synchronicities like so perfectly like that. Just, just more, you know, nudges from the universe that like, Hey, you're on the right path. You're doing the thing, you know, that you're supposed to, that we've asked you to do kind of thing, right? Yeah. Well, I just hope it was the good, the good spirits that were asking me to do it, but, um, you know, you kind of never know. You got to follow and see what happens. Yeah, exactly. But, uh, yeah, so that was, that was wild. And then, uh, That's a really interesting and a really great person to be able to talk to, though. Someone who, you know, was there before any of the incidents, you know? And, like, what a great, like, just, just that you lined up to be able to talk to that person is, you know, like, what a perfect interview to have. It was amazing because he had a lot of inside information. Uh, he also had a lot of, like, so, like I said, I was stonewalled by many of the, uh, you know, people who lived in Amityville. And then this guy kind of was giving me the insight into what all of them were saying and thinking. So they're not telling the public about it, but they're kind of like in a little group talking about it. And all of a sudden, you know, this guy is like telling me all these shocking revelations. It was, it was, I mean, I can't, it was, it was amazing. It was eye opening. It was, you know, I, I was so excited writing that book. You know what I mean? I really went researching it. Yeah. And, you know, it's really, I just, it's really cool that like, obviously there was some, you were getting help from somewhere, right? Like getting to the right places and to get, to get an inside scoop, to get like the real true story, because that is something that is really kind of interesting. And like John and I had watched, you know, like a documentary on Amityville before this, just because it was the same thing where I was familiar with the movie. Right. But not necessarily the true story of what had happened. It's, I mean, there's, there's so much, it is controversial. Like there's, there's a lot of controversy because you, you know, there's a lot of sort of, I don't know if he said, she said, it's the way you want to put it, but you know, because there was so much hype to the movie and, and to like the book, Jay Hanson's book, you know, right. The book is kind of the instant, like sort of fame or attention, right. It happened with, with the family that had lived there after the murders, like. I imagine that it's really difficult to get any of them to, to want to talk about any of it, right? Yeah, so, so Chris, uh, you know, we talk every once in a while, like I said, and I, we did, I did an interview, uh, myself and Laura Didio for a documentary, an Amityville documentary that hasn't come out yet. Oh, very cool. And, uh, yeah, and they had called me, um, you know, when we, I, I became, you know, good friends with the producer as we were, you know, we would go over a lot of deals. I was the first one they interviewed. And, um. You know, they had told me that he contacted Chris and Chris didn't want to do the interview and then myself and Chris were talking and he, you know, he kind of was thinking about it and then, you know, but he just didn't want to do it. I mean, you know, I don't know what the fascination is as far as with with the family members. I know Joe, um, The daughter who saw Jody, she has never came out publicly and I, I think maybe the other brother maybe said one or two things. I remember that was George Lux's stepkids. So that's why when we, when I say Christopher Quarantino, he was Christopher Lux. And then he, but he kept, but I guess he went back to his original. Name, his father's name, uh, imagine there's probably a, you know, you don't want the notoriety and, and, you know, when you're going about your life, you don't want to necessarily. Have everywhere you go to be attached to that story and, you know, have everyone ask about it and because it becomes sort of a shadow over you, right? People aren't interested in you. They're interested in this thing you were interacting or attached to this story, right? Right. And he had said Christopher had basically, um, you know, I mean, he was seven years old. So what could he really remember? I don't even remember being seven. So I, mean? So he, but he said that George, I think he, he said that there was, he saw like an orb. He had an experience where an orb or some kind of figure was coming at him down the hall. He got really scared. That's really all he remembers from that time. Um, you know, pretty amazing for him to even say that and remember that. I mean, I think he's been pretty honest about everything. He says, I don't. I didn't see anything else that happened or he didn't remember anything else, so I don't know, you know, very cool. So you, I know you've written a lot of other things. So, so where is the sort of transition from the crime into the fiction? So I'm a very creative person. I'm all I do. I love school like my Jonestown and Amityville kind of written. You know, I sourced everything in the back with a with a with a detailed bibliography. Um, you know, it was kind of like a long essay paper for school, like a 300 page, you know, So I kind of, uh, I have a very creative side. I play guitar. I sing. I do all kinds of stuff creatively. I love editing, you know, I, um, um, you know, videos and I do all kinds of creative stuff. And so it wasn't feeding my creative side, the, uh, you know, the true crime plus it's very controversial. The things that I've, the topics that I've taken on were very controversial and by nature, I mean, I, you know, I didn't want to really be controversial with this. You know, I want to come on wearing this. Suit jacket with a rolling stone shirt. I dig it. I want to just like, I don't want to be like in a suit and tie all the time and like just sitting up, you know, because when you're talking about true murders, you can't sit here and make jokes and all this kind of stuff. It's not, you know, because it's really not funny. I mean, you can, you can, if you create that, that that's your brand, right? Like, but yeah, I get what you're saying though. Like, you know, if you want to be able to explore those things in a more sort of fun, lighthearted sort of way, you have the creative world is where you have to be able to do that, you know? Right. I was finding it hard to, to, to, to kind of, uh, create that type of image where it's, I'm being myself yet, you know, able to talk about these things in just a loose manner. So anyway, combination of those things, I, I, I transition, but I, I gotta be honest with you, um, fiction is much harder than nonfiction writing, writing fiction, and I don't even think it's close. And I, I don't know if I've ever heard many people say that, but from my experience, you know. Nonfiction is there. It's all there. You just have to research. The research is hard. Everything. And then you just kind of compile all this information and you and you make a story, you know, you have a message in there or whatever. But, but fiction, you're right, you got it. You have to create characters, you have to create a storyline, you have to create everything is you. This is interesting. This is interesting to me though so and maybe. So I know john's been kind of toying with writing john's a musician. But, uh, and, and I, so, but I. I have sort of, I started from the creative writing sort of side. I have, it's just interesting to me that you say that it's easier to write nonfiction. And I wonder if it's just maybe because that's where you started that it's easier because for me it's opposite. Like I, I struggle with nonfiction. I love reading it. I love, this is interesting maybe. And I don't know. So I love to absorb nonfiction like podcasts and reading and books and documentaries. But I. I always prefer to write, like, fiction, and I'm not a huge fiction reader, so I, like, but I, so how does that go for you then? Are you still big into reading nonfiction while you're creating your, you know, what's the balance there for you? I have four stepkids, and I just had a, uh, a baby two month old. Oh, so you are not reading. I don't read anything. I'm lucky if I read, like, a Facebook article at this point. Yeah. That's fair enough. You know, well, I mean, look, I, I, I do love reading, and obviously, and, uh, it's hard to finish anything these days. And I'd rather, I prefer writing over reading. I, you know, listen, everybody has their own process. Stephen King says If you're not writing, read, read this, read that, you have to do, you know, you have to write 10, 000 words a day, I don't know, you know what I mean, everybody has their own process, I think, um, reading, um, writing fiction, to me, is Here's the, here's to me what means more than anything when you write fiction. I am very, I am very prepared. I write a 20, 10 to 20 page outline, okay, before I even write the first, before I even start on the first chapter. Um, I, I, I outline the characters. I, I give them a backstory. I go over the story and outline the story, like literally like, like one, two or bullet points, whatever you have over it. And I, it's fluid. I keep changing it throughout the process, but to me, the story is written before I, before I start writing. I like that. That's really an interesting, um, I'm so I'm a lot more fluid, I guess. Like I just kind of, I, I don't know, but it's interesting to me. Like, I, that's one of the things with writers, like, or just creative people in general, like the. Processes that we have. Yeah, the thing that you create because it's always something that fits you. Yeah, right. You know, it's always you have to create a process. And I'm so for you, you know, coming from nonfiction, like, that's how you would have structured all of your information to write, like, Yeah, okay, I have to write this case together. Right. Kind of a similar thing with, you know, I never thought of it that way. That's really that's I never thought of it that way. Like you just said, I'd say I'm absolutely correct. Yeah, like it's kind of like you, this is you're building your case file and then you write your book from it. Right. Like, and that's like, but that's a really cool process. And so do you in your fiction, then like you're doing horror fiction? Is it, is it just because you enjoy horror as a genre? Or did some of that sort of come from the subjects that you had nonfiction researched? Was it, you know, A transition because of or or both because you know it's it's a field of interest or a genre of interest for you personally. Uh, so that's, it's, that's a great question because I actually started in 2020, right? So I had like, I, I used to do creative writing when I was younger and stuff, you know, I couldn't put all these things together. I think it was because I didn't have that process in place to me, sitting down and just, you know, freehand writing, what do they call that when, uh, it's called a pan stir. It's a panster. Uh, that, that's a new term. Uh, I just, I was going to say that's not familiar to me. It's somebody who just sits down and writes off the seat of their pants. So it's like, that's how I do that. Like I'm writing. It's more of a, like in the moment, slow sort of thing. And so that's, that's kind of interesting to me. Like you basically build the whole thing first. And for me, it's sort of like, I'm more than like a, I have to sort of connect to whatever the energy of that story is in some way. And like, And, and then it kind of goes and like I kind of have things that sort of like are revealed to me as I'm going. No, go ahead. It's funny because I saw an interview with R. L. Stine and he said his process is he writes the end of the book first and then he goes backwards and tries to fool people. You know, all along the way and trick people. I, I just thought that was really, really cool. But yeah, I love that. And that's so funny. I was just thinking the other day about Ghost Bumps, uh, Goosebumps books that like, I used to read R. L. Sine all the time. And I was that person that would always, I always would read the last page of the book first. Like I was that person because I, because I wanted to be excited about how I got there, right? Like, and it was, that's kind of what it was. It's like, okay, now I know like, oh, what, how do we get there? So that's interesting that that's the way that he wrote it was to start with the end. I love that. Very cool. Can't do that with my books, Ross. You, you, it's, there's no use in reading the rest because my whole, my, um, you know, I guess my M. O. would be character development, storyline, and the big twist. I want I if you can figure out where this is going, even by like the last chapter, I didn't do my job. That's what I feel like as a as a horror author. I want you to be completely surprised of who did it. What's happening, except what you just read, you don't even, you didn't even know what was going on, you know, like, like, that's one of my books, no med station. Um, that's you want, you want like an aspect of a suspense with it. Of course, of course, I want to, you know, action, adventure, suspense, I kind of try to put everything into one. I like the psychological aspect of it. I love, you know, psychological horror. I don't want to just, you know, Have it gory and bloody. I, I, I want it to be you to be scared. I want you to be more scared when the person is being stalked than when they get caught. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, it's kind of like the, I, I think that that's an important thing to keep in mind with horror because I think of things like what comes to mind for me is Jeepers Creepers. As soon as you saw the Jeepers Creepers monster, right? Yeah. There was, it was like, okay, well. I know it's a big reveal, but I'm less scared now because I've seen it right, right. And so there's a kind of a fine line there that you have to follow. And, and, you know, so like what, I mean, not to say that horror as a genre doesn't have its place for like, I love monster movies and like, yeah, of course, of course. It's just preference. That's all right. But like the psychological element, like when you can really get inside someone's head and have them freaking themselves out, right. Right. That's, that's fun to play with too, though. And that's, um, yeah. What's that Mel Gibson movie? Uh, where he did, uh, went with, um, M. Light, uh, Shyamalan, whatever. Yeah. Like, I mean, I thought that was a little too much because I got to wait two hours to, to, you know, but still, I got to be, I mean, I'm saying that, but it, it was amazing. Like when they were banging on the door, you were like, what is on the other side of that door? I mean, you only have like a tiny look at the, at the alien, but. You were just scared the whole movie. Like, I, I was petrified. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, like, um, oh, go ahead. Like a movie that, a movie that gave me that feeling wasn't even a horror movie. Have you ever seen the movie? Um, prisoners. It's a amazing, it's got, it's got, um, uh, is it, um, it's got Jake Gill Hall. He's a policeman. It's about a abduction. Was that what, uh, I did see, I, I don't, why can't I remember, like, too much of it, but that was a great movie, I remember. Yeah, that's one of my favorite movies from, like, the last ten years. I love that movie, but it's like, that gave me that feeling of what is going on. Yeah, yeah. I loved that feeling in the movie. Was that when you had the 911 call or something? It was, um, it was where these kids got abducted and then they were brainwashed with LSD. Oh, I didn't see that. I have to see that. Yeah, and then they, um, these parents that abducted them talked them into abducting other children. Oh my goodness. And then they try to brainwash them with LSD. Okay, so we're basically talking about links to Jonestown at this point. Somewhat. It's, it's very cult ish too. It's very, they use like, um, And the way to escape this, this house is you have to finish a book of mazes that they put together and the whole thing is built around this maze. It's, it's a, it's a weird watch, but yeah, if you haven't seen it, it's one of the best movies I've seen in probably the last 10 years. I have to check that out. But that was, that was, uh, Patty Hearst. Remember Patty Hearst? Yeah. Well, that's well, they, yeah, they, they, so the guy, I guess the name was sink or whatever they called him. He was in jail and he said that the CIA were doing like techniques, torture techniques on him. And he basically were giving him LSD and mescaline and all that stuff. And then they would, they kind of conditioned him. to do these things. And he said, I could do this on the outside. He told one of his prison mates. And then he went out and kidnapped Patty Hearst, kept her in a closet and then had her, you know, robbing banks. Yeah. So it was very, yeah. And, and, and that was linked. A lot of that's linked to Jonestown because that was, um, that was, uh, the Congressman Ryan, who was the first Congressman killed in the line of duty, U. S. Congressman, uh, in Port Kaituma, Jonestown, right. And he was actually investigating the Patty Hearst. He was like one of the main investigators of that. Yeah, he was investigating. So he, he was investigating congressman Ryan, the CIA's, uh, you know, basically experiments, the covert experiments they had, and he had actually made an amendment to use Ryan amendment, because he thought that Um, he wanted them to come to Congress with everything they had to come with all these secret, uh, you know, experiments they were doing and so that was actually just so you know, that was purged at the end after Jonestown happened and everything happened to use a member Ryan just got completely purged from For record. Okay. So anyway, that is, I mean, I don't know how much you, you, since you're fiction writing, I don't know how much you want to do the research and the, that sort of investigation intensity stuff. But I mean, that's sort of its own rabbit hole to go down, right? The idea of like the MK ultra stuff and, and the connections to like other bigger happenings like Jonestown and, and, you know, things that. This is something that I was just, I don't know if you're familiar with. In my Jonestown book, I do a whole chapter on MKUltra and it's connected, and then the next chapter is a connection to Jonestown. Absolutely, 100%. That's, so, I, I, I was just like the other day talking to someone about this, the, um, Oh, it's the ergot outbreak that happened in France, right? And all these people like danced until they died kind of thing. And there was like this, some, I want to say that it was something that happened maybe in the forties, fifties or sixties, that there was some similar situation that they thought there was like another ergot sort of outbreak in the grains. But there was also a A, I don't know if you want to call it a conspiracy theory, rumor, what, what have you, that it was actually part of the CIMK ultra stuff that they purposefully released. Like, because. T to throw people off the trail. Well, because ergot is where you get LSD from, right? LSD is derived from ergot. And so they thought that it was something where like they were testing the potentiality of weaponizing LSD for brainwashing. Right. Like if you were to release it into a population. Right, right. Like, and it was basically an experiment, which obviously went. Horribly wrong. Everyone absolutely nuts and we're throwing themselves out windows. And yeah, well, that, and I talk about that in the book as well, in the Jonestown book, in that chapter where, um, you know, they, they had, uh, the CIA would use that on, on unwitting soldiers and, and people in the military. You know, and then one of the guys went crazy and jumped out. They say he jumped out the window, but they, you know, I think they exhumed his body and they found like head injuries, you know, that weren't attributed to the fall. So yeah, it was either being abused or abusing himself out of. Whatever was happening. I mean, that's all of that stuff again. It's like, that's such a deep dive. You could go into in and of itself. That's so interesting, right? I love that stuff. But yeah, sure. Oh, I was going to say as a writer, I was going to ask a question, but this is probably a question for both of you. Like, as far as subjects, you write about Jonestown and then Amityville horror. So it's like, Okay. Um, with, uh, the aspect of the paranormal and like the true crime, how do you dig your claws into something and really sit down and look at it? Because everyone's got a, I mean, everyone's got a ghost story. And in, in there's, you know, you, you got, you got, um, you got Jonestown, you got, you know, heaven's gate, you got all these cults and stuff like that. How do you, how do you figure something out or find passion in something that you really sit down and dig into it? Like, cause you could pick a different thing every week. How do you sit down with one thing and just really dig into it? Yeah, well, like I said, for me, Jonestown, it was the racial aspect, it was something that he was having, he would have the black people and the white people, they had to like, uh, you know, uh, bunk together, but even if they had a wife or whatever, they couldn't sleep with their wife, they had to like, he was co mingling, he was doing all these weird kind of things, and I don't know, that to me, There was definitely a racial aspect to it. Um, Amityville was just, you know, to me, it had, as a kid watching Amityville, I was, I was, I couldn't sleep for like months. You know what I mean? I mean, flies in the window. I mean, that was, that was really traumatic, you know, so that, I love it. That's what scared the hell out of me. And, uh, when I found out it was a true story, Oh, I gotta know about this. Oh, and it's right down the block from me. It's only an hour away. By the way, I live in Amityville now, so. Oh, nice. You're just right next to the action. They call me Amity Will now. Well, but that's okay. So is that something that helped inspire your, your anthology of short stories, then the Amityville, uh, stories that you, the series that you have. Yeah. Well, just for the record, I just want to say this, that you talk about, like you just said before about the universe bringing you, you know, my wife, I met my wife down in Atlantic city. Um, she lived in, she lived in Amityville. I wrote the Amityville book. Here we are, we get married. I'm glad I moved to Aberdeen. I mean, you can't even make this up, man. I love it. No, you can't. That's so good though. That's so fun. It's nuts. Uh, so the transition came, uh, I was, it was right, you know, I was actually trying to write, I wanted to write a crime novel. Like, like I was in the, you know, I was in true crime. Hey, let me just make up a crime, whatever. And I started like researching crimes. And like, I was trying to like, and I was like, Kind of like, oh, I'm putting too much of that real crime into here. And I don't, that's not creative enough. I didn't want to have to refer to anything. And then I went and saw a movie. Uh, it was like the first thing I did after like, you know, 2020 in the summer. Um, I, we went to a drive in movie theater and I saw. Uh, what's that movie with the, there was like four people, I, I, uh, God, I can't remember. It was a, it's a really good movie. And I'm like, I can do that. Like, I didn't, I didn't write that. Like, why am I not writing? And I'm a huge horror fan. I never thought of writing horror. And then I'm like, I'm, I could do that. So I went home and I outlined a story called The Whistling Man. And I worked on it for a while. And then I kind of put it down. And then once I just remember, One day I had like two or three chapters and it was good. And then I just was like, zoom. And I wrote like the rest of the book in like a month. And I'm like, wow, maybe I have something here. And, and it was very similar to me. It was like, kind of like, uh, it was, it was based on, you know, four people, four, four Americans abroad who went and there was a cursed land. It was like, uh, not, there was no, uh. It was abandoned, no lights or anything. And the guy had just, he inherited, um, property down there and he, and he wanted to buy this property also. So he didn't went there cause there was the whole thing with the mind and everything and whatever. And so obviously you could see how that goes, but it was based a lot about like on Halloween. I'm a huge Halloween fan. Stalking was similar to, to like the way it is in Halloween. And then. Right as I, as I was finishing that, I think I did, I did Nomad Station. I started Nomad Station before I was even done with that book. And it just, it was kind of like, wow, this is just blowing. It was just coming out of me. Nomad Station is a woman who takes a train ride. And she, uh, like she goes to, she takes a subway every day. She's riding, you know, to work. And then all of a sudden, one day she's like, where am I? And it's going really, really fast. And then she winds up at Nomad Station. No one's there. And she, and she's on the phone with her sister. Half the time trying to figure out how to get home, weird things start happening, et cetera, et cetera. That book won, uh, Audiobook, in one of, that's Paranormal Audiobook of 2022. It's not that. Um, yeah, that was like, amazing. That's so cool. You know, but like, it's I love, I love to hear that story because I just love that it's something that like flowed. It was, you know, you didn't, it wasn't a, like I had to try to force myself to do it. It was like that creativity was just rolling. And that's the thing that, that does end up becoming a success and working right. Like if you can follow that. And I, but I love it that it's kind of like, again, like, you know, the universe revealing to you as you go along, like follow these little threads of this true crime stuff. And then like, you were like horror, like go mix this together and you can, you can create like worlds of your own kind of, it's like the story's already there and the universe just reveals it to you almost, you know what I mean? It, no, it really is. And I think that's kind of a fun, like element sometimes, especially because, because like I, you know, what is that word when you just sit and write? It's. That you learn. Oh, Panster. Panster. Panster. Yeah. Because that is, yeah, but that's kind of how it goes for me and like, I've been sitting and writing before where a character's sort of personality. Manifests. Right. Like, just, and like, the information about the character will just come to me and I'll be like, Oh, that's great. That's fantastic that that's who you are. Did I write that or did that just, somebody whispered in my ear. Right? There's so much, like, I love that element to it though. Like there's almost something kind of paranormal and fun. In that process. Yeah, there's that kind of energy of mystery. And like, is this all just my mind? Or am I getting some information from somewhere? Right? Kind of, it's a, it's a fun little game to play when you're writing. Absolutely. And I lived in the woods at that time when I wrote when I wrote I wrote six, I think six books. Five of them, I lived in the woods and they were the, I mean, I was like scared every night. I was up till five in the morning. I was going to say, so you, you were living in the place where you're watching and waiting for the ax murderer. Yeah, I was going to say, you took a very old school approach to writing. I thought I was going to, I thought somebody was going to kill me out there. There was bears out there. There was everything. I seriously, it was scary, but it was, it was a really cool experience. Getting yourself into the right energy to be writing. So get yourself good and scared and you can write the scary stuff. Yeah, and it's really important, like your workstation, kind of where you set up your office, whatever you want to call it. I mean, I think it's really important, you know, for writing because it kind of, things flow from that. It's like you kind of manifest, you create your own, you know, energy. And, um, I had like skeletons and like, hey, like. Because I was going to say I saw on your website. So no, some of the photos that you have on your website, I do think they're really fun. Like you have the skeleton writing at the laptop. You know, you probably just have to, you have to, um, you know, you get into it. If you're really into it, you're into it, you know, create your environment. I have like five boxes of like horror masks, you know what I mean? Like I made my family all put the horror masks on for Christmas. Like we took a Christmas picture and they're like, yeah, this is not even Halloween. I'm like, just put the mask on, but they're cool. They, they play. Hey, that's, that's nice. When you get your family, I'll play the game with you a little bit. I did see that too. I did like that though. Merry Christmas, where you have everybody like, that was really fun. Yeah, it was cool. So. So like when you write in the woods and at home, how do you differ as far as like, cause you got to have a way to get over writer's block and you have to have sort of like a system that you do before writing to get yourself, you know, like a lot of people say they'll like if people smoke, they'll sit down with a cigarette and they'll smoke or they'll smoke while they write. Or have a cup of tea or something. How do you, how does that differ if you're in the woods versus have any little, yeah, what are your, your little things that you use to kind of get yourself into the, into the flow? Well, it's definitely, bourbon, bourbon has to have to have, there's no, I'm serious, I'm not even kidding, like, I'll, you know, but the key is. You have to write before you, you know, as you're in that high, like that kind of, but you can't get too drunk. So it's like you have a limited space here. You know, you got it. You can't go down either. Cause then you're, you know, you're tired. So, yeah, that's a whole nother thing. But, but, uh, like you just said, uh, the writer's block is funny that you said that, because to me being a pants, so I don't know how you don't get right. I can't get right. It is blocked because every. I'm like, okay, here's all the scenes are already done. So now I'm like, write this scene. I kind of like compartmentalize the whole book. And I write this scene, write this scene. And I refer to other scenes. Like there's obviously, and I try to, you know, you use foreshadowing and all that kind of stuff. But then also, you know, remembering little clues that you had here. That bring you on, uh, that come up later in the, in the writing process. You know what I mean? So, there's no writer's block for me whatsoever. Because the only block I would have would be, where do I go with this story next? It's not, you know what I mean? It's not the actual writing part. It's like, okay, the killer did this, now But how do, what is, how does he get to here? You know what I mean? I want to get it to this point. How do I get it there? So it's just those little details you got to work out, but there's no block, you know, I, I couldn't write it like that. I could never write pants because I would just stop and go. You know, every two seconds, I have to be kind of, I don't know where the story's going, like, how can I not know where this is going, you know, yeah, you take a very investigative approach to a different styles together in your head. Okay. Yeah, for sure. That's, um, I don't know. That is, it's kind of there's. It's funny how that works when you sort of envy other writers or creatives the process that they have, right? Because I think to myself like, I might try that. What? You wanna try with the vermin? The vermin? No, no, no, no vermin. I stopped drinking wine. But um, start with the ending. Like figure out the ending and then go back. Yeah, that's RL man. That's all RL. That's pretty cool. Yeah, and and I don't it's just interesting to me like I do kind of I think like I wish I had that but for me it really is sort of the if I sit down the less I think the more I can flow with it. Yeah. You know and it's like it's interesting though right the It is just a different style and it's kind of fun. Like, how do you end up training yourself to be that? Like, obviously for you, you had the, the, you know, background in true crime and the nonfiction elements. So you kind of like created your own way of, of doing it so that. It is really easy for you, right? But it's, I don't know. It's interesting. So I'm going to have to think about it when I'm writing now. And I do sit and I just kind of flow. Like, I don't know. What you just said was exactly, I guess, what we are all, I guess, trying to do. It's just the processes that we are trying to do that with are different. So you were trying to write where you're trying to not think I'm trying to do this where you just kind of want to flow. I want to do the same thing. And in order for me to do that, I need that structure of the scene already kind of In place, and then I can write the scene without actually having to worry about where do I go from here. I know where it's going. Now I can kind of just kind of key in on, you know, just just letting it happen. You know, so that's, that's interesting kind of you sort of build yourself a framework and then you don't have to think as you go, like, That is, it's an interesting way to That's true. Yeah. We're all trying to get into the flow. Same thing. Right? Just different way getting Well, you're just taking a different road to get there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. because like some of the stories that I have in my head that I'm trying to write down, I, I've, uh, shared with Haley that like, I have to come to a conclusion. Some it has to go somewhere. So if I, if I start it with that somewhere and then go back, that might be a better way of going about it. Yeah. Right now I'm writing a story from the, uh, the point of view of a guy that got captured, like in a time by people that he doesn't understand what they're saying. Oh, I love it. So he's trying to figure out how does he appease them by action? You know what I mean? Like when they tell him to do something and he doesn't know how to do it, they like, you know, how does he get around that? You know what I mean? Like stuff like that. It's very psychological. Those types of stories are really scary because you as the audience member goes right into that character. And you could like just look through his eyes and what did he say? I don't understand what he said. What? Bam! You know, I mean that's, yeah, that's Yeah. And it's all told, it's all told by um, just him vocalizing the situation in his head. And the people that captured him vocalizing it to him. It's just what he thinks about it because he doesn't know what, you know, and just conclusions of. He doesn't listen. This is what happens. He's like, it's almost like a, almost like a pet, you know what I mean? Like figuring out. Yeah. Somewhat. It's like almost that situation. Like you don't know what's going to happen. You need to figure out with my, with my dog and my baby, you know, I'm like. It's so it must be so hard and my dog is really like smart. He kind of knows like what but I don't understand what like a lot of times we don't understand each other We and it forces a lot of frustration You know for sure and just and just take it as uh as a like almost like a P. O. W. Aspect. Like you're like, you're, you're basically taken as slave, right? You don't know what's going to happen to you. You don't know what they're saying, right? You don't know why you're letting me know when that comes out for sure. Well, I'm still writing it. It's a, it's the first one I'm writing. It's the first one I'm trying. So that's all right, man. We'll see what happens with it. Yeah, I love it. See my, I do more sci fi kind of fantasy stuff. So my brain immediately says he's been kidnapped by aliens and he is, he is their pet and doesn't understand that. Right. And so he's just being trained. He doesn't realize he's just being trained. Like the dog is being trained, but I mean, it is like psychologically. It's an interesting concept that barrier of communication. And you don't like, you don't know how, do they see you as. a prisoner or is there some like completely other situation that they think it is that you don't know that it is. Yeah. Well, when I, when I came up with the story, I was watching a lot of documentaries about Roman invasion of Germania. So it's like, I was thinking as far as that, because you don't know what the hell they're saying. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that would be like, I don't know a lick of Russian. That'd be like me, you know, getting captured by a Russian. What do you do? You're done. Yeah. They're not gonna appease you by speaking your notes. No, they're not gonna give a translator unless they want information. You're not on the stand That's wild. Yeah. But yeah, I took it from that aspect, like, I don't know. What do you do in that situation? You, yeah. Well I keep it going, man. That's great. Oh, for sure. Things, things kind of just, I guess, come to you once, once you get one down. I think once you finish one. It's like, oh, I can do this now. You know what I mean? And it gets, it does get easier. And if it doesn't get easier, you're in a wrong line of business. I always feel like when you see like the greats or people really good at something, you know, I'm about to watch the, you know, Patrick Mahomes and what's the name, uh, Lamar Jackson today. When you see them, they make it look so easy, but they put so much work in, but it, it, it, it gets easier for them. You know what I mean? I mean, when you're great at something, I think you, it has to be somewhat easy or else. You can't sit there and be like, struggling to write a book for 10 years, I mean. Yeah, well that's kind of the thing Haley kind of put in my head too, is like kind of a less is more approach. She said go for a short story instead of a, you know, go for a, Yeah. Six paragraph instead of a 50 page. Let me, let me, you know what, that's a great transition right there, because, My next book after No Man's Station was The Horrors of Willville. And they, it's an anthology series, a horror anthology series. Every episode is different. There's different characters, different storyline, right? So, I was like, let me challenge myself. Can I do this? Every episode is 6, 000 words. I'm going to try to keep it around 6, 000. I'm not going to be exact, you know, 6, 500, 5, 900, whatever. But it was so challenging. It was so cool because I feel like it's much harder to write a short story than a long story. Yeah. I think this is funny again because I feel like I'm in the other camp. Like, because that's a lot of what I'm writing is like episodic and short stories and short fiction. And then I Combine them together and kind of it builds a world, right? Yeah. But like, I don't, it's just again interesting that like for you it's the opposite situation. Condensing it into short form is harder than doing the long form. Yeah. It was harder because like longer you could just say okay, you know, I'm sitting there struggling because I want to say more because you describe a situation. You need a lot of words. Hey, the guy had a hat on with glasses and a beard, you know, I, I don't, you'd have to kind of condense all that to just, you know, how do you describe it without saying all of this stuff? It's harder, you know, for me, for my brain, that, uh, like six paragraph short story works better because then I'm forced to finish it. I cannot keep, you know? 'cause you can run away with anything if you like. So, yeah. Right, right. And that, and that to me, that would be a structural thing where you might wanna have that, uh, the story written down first. Yeah. Kind of like, uh, tra it's almost like training wheels or like, you know, when they, when you bowl, when you bowling and they put Thes kids, they put those bumper, the bumpers up. Yeah, I put those bumpers up for myself so I don't, you know, I stay within that narrow landscape of the story. It's gotta, it's gotta hit the pins, you know? Or it's like writing music, you know what I mean? Done is better than perfect. Yes. In my head. You know, you have to finish it. You can let yourself, you know. Not everything has to be 2112 arbitrary, you know? Yeah, you just finished the song. Yeah. I mean, you know. Yeah. Verse chorus, uh, verse, chorus Bridge, you know. Yeah. Chorus for sure. But the har the HARs of Willville, I actually, which is really cool. I had a couple people, uh, reach out to me, some pro, some production companies, and one guy is, is supposed to be getting back to me on a, uh, and we're gonna be. Trying to get this, I guess, put a pitch deck together and try to get it as a streaming series. That would be so cool. I would love if like, keep us posted on that. I definitely would love to have you come and talk about it. Like get, Oh, that would be so exciting. I'll come back for sure. And so it's horrors of Wilbur one, horrors of Wilbur two, there's five episodes in each. I have horrors of Wilbur three pretty much outlined, but I have a couple more books that I'm, I'm almost finished with one right now. It's really scary, but, um, It was really cool with, uh, Horace Willville, because I reached out to John Kassir. I don't know if you know, uh, John Kassir, the voice of the Crypt Keeper from Tales of Oh, yes, yes, I did. I saw that on your website. So he was, he was so cool. And I was like, you know, I, I obviously paid him to do it. And he's like, write me a script. And we went back and forth a few times. I wrote a script. And to see this, Icon or icon read back my script and even improvise a little bit. Then I added the music and I did all the editing. That was like so much fun and I told him, I said, John, um, you know, if, if this series gets picked up, I would like you to be involved in it. You know what I mean? So I think. It's possible. I mean, we're going to see what happens first. I will reach out and see what happens. But live. I mean, if the universe has put it together this far, it can put it together the rest of the way. Like, absolutely. That's so exciting. That's so fun. So it's so crazy that that was like such an inspiration for me. Tales from the Crypt, you know, Twilight Zone. That's kind of the format of this series. So it was really cool to have him, you know, endorse it and then also possibly be in it. I mean, that would just be, yeah, the dream that we will see it. I love it. Uh, I was gonna ask you, like, since you're into, like, true crime and stuff, and, like, even the little corner, like, little pocket of America that we're from has, like, true crime murder and stuff like that, I was gonna say, like, because I got into true crime through an ex girlfriend, and she showed me that chapter. Are you familiar with that? Which showed you what it, it's called that chapter. It's a YouTube series. Really. Have you ever, have you ever thought about doing like a true crime YouTube series, considering you have like a pretty good, um, editing background. I did, but I mean, it's maybe that it takes so much work. The stuff that I edit, it's like small, like minute or two. It takes me, it takes a long time. You know what I mean? Yeah, I get it. And, uh, I would love to do that. Believe me, if I could get someone who's like more, I guess, production inclined, who has like great cameras and lighting and all that kind of stuff. Then I would, yeah, I would, I would definitely consider it. I w I was actually thinking about doing a short like movie. But it's just, I mean, even those, I mean, you're talking like one episode of ours and we'll build 6, 000 words. I can run like 200 astronomical and ridiculous of what these things cost nowadays, you know what I mean? So I really need help. You know, I need, I need a production company. I need, we need investors. We need all that, you know, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I can do as much on my own as I can, you know, Oh, for sure. Yeah, I get it now. Like, but it's again, if it's something that you feel is Where you're kind of headed or where you're going, like the, the pieces will come together, right? It'll, it'll, it'll fall together the right way. Like, I do think that would be really cool too, because, you know, love the true crime also. It's, it's always so fascinating. It's, but, you know, and kind of like John said, like, we've all got a true crime story, right? We've all got, like, we've all had something in our hometown or stories from when you were a kid kind of thing. Absolutely. Yeah, something's happened. All of us. Um, and then finally, I just, just to touch on the last thing I've done because I don't, I don't want to pass this up the embittered of Oz. I was going to ask about that. Well, because I, I read the, I was on your website. I was reading about it. Um, it's just, it's interesting to me. That's not, it's interesting. It like sort of the flip side of Oz, I guess, you know, like the dark mirror world of Oz, but yeah, go ahead. Talk to us about that. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off with that. I, I, I, I love wizard of Oz. I love wicked. I love the. Just the elements right of like again that sort of fantasy world and so it's interesting to me the idea of blending it in a horror sort of way. Yeah, well the first thing the first thing I had to do was do a lot of research because it's very tricky legally you MGM owns the movie, and you can't, but but but the the actual book. Is in public, in the public domain, so you can reference like, I guess, things that are, you know, inspired by the book, but you can't reference anything from the movie, and it even gets crazy to the point where, like, if you're explaining the tin man and you put like that, you know, what's that, the tin can with the, yeah, the funnel on the top, that, that is the movie. And then it kind of illegally, there's cases that say, you know, that, that, um, you're explaining the movie character, people would know from that, so you'd lose. The ruby red slippers in the book, they were not red. If you say ruby red, you're in legal issues, you know what I mean? So I kind of, um, that was the first thing I had to iron out. Then the second thing was like, how am I going to make, I mean, I was scared when I saw The Wizard of Oz. I was scared. Like, when I was a little kid, I would, it was fun, but I was scared. I remember being terrified. It was one of the first, I felt like it was the first horror movie I ever saw. Yeah. It was just a natural transition. And so, in my book, all your favorite characters are with the witch. So, the Tin Man is the Tin Soldier, and he's her right hand man. And he's like the Terminator, with an axe. Okay. And then you have the lion, is, she doesn't have a broom, she has a lion with wings. And he flies and he has a, a tail that is a, uh, scorpions, a stinger and he's nasty and he basically flies right and eats. He eats little people. You know, he, that's what he loves to eat. The little munchkin, the middle. Okay. Um, did you do it? Crazy. I got issues, but I got issues. I think it's great because so what did you do any kind of research? I mean, obviously you're doing the research into Oz and I think that's really great that you have the background the you know your nonfiction investigative background definitely would have helped you to research the things that you couldn't do right so that you could write this story like drawing on that like, again, the universe gave you that little knowledge bit so that you would be able to write this and and Avoid the copyright issues, right? And be able to integrate that world. But when you're talking about like the lion with wings and the scorpion's tail, did you do any research on like creature lore or mythological creature lore? Because that I can't think of what it is right now, but there is such a, yeah, I saw like pictures and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I was looking up like crazy lions or whatever, scary lions, you know? And I saw that and I'm like, uh, yeah, that has to be my lion. I love it. It's like incorporating other sort of mythological lore without having, you know, you, you have the imagery there, right? You don't have to necessarily go into all of like where it comes from, but like incorporate that sort of additional, that imagery and, and that has like, again, it's kind of like it's its own little rabbit hole that when readers like pick up on that image, right. They can go on that. Right. So it's, it's, I like that sort of element in writing where you have those, those little pieces that kind of send people off on their own little wild goose chase. Yeah, of course. Across referencing everything leads to everything else. That's really fun, of course. Um, the, uh, the, the Scarecrow to me is like, It's just right there for horror. I mean, the scare Oh yeah. Already has a mask on, you know what I mean? Where you know, you just, it's a scary scarecrow mask and it basically, it's a plane crash. So that's how it happens. It it, it's not a house stickle, it's a plane crash. Okay. Well, but I like that because you're kind of also bringing it into. At maybe not modern era necessarily, but like sort of again, like blending, like the fantasy world that is Oz, but blending it with like our modern world. Yeah. And that's like, that's interesting to me, right? Like, so bringing those fantasy elements into something where, oh, we could maybe interact with that. Yes, like this could happen to you, maybe I want everybody to think I want everyone to be scared. And I want everyone to be able to put themselves in the position of the person or the protagonist or whoever is is getting chased. I want them to feel like they're running from Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, anybody can get on a plane. Anybody can get on a subway train and wind up at Nomad station. Or you can wind up in Oz, you know, But I mean, I do love that element that sort of like everyday life and your everyday autopilot, like could suddenly be shifted into something just like magical, paranormal, just horrific. Right. And it's, it does, it kind of gives you that element of like, that's how you can relate or attach to it as the reader, as the audience member so that you really are in it. With the character. And I do, you know, like, I love that when you can do that with, with bringing the fantasy elements together and really embody that, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. That's so cool. And so that that one is out as it, is it an audio book right now? That one is the Embittered of Oz. I love the cover by the way. Thank you. Not only is it all my books are audio books. Um, and uh, all my books are, are in all formats. Uh, Ronnie Rollins, he's an English voiceover actor. He did the voice for this. I really wanted everybody I got. I wanted that specific thing. I wanted an English Speaking like an English accent to do to do this and he was so kind of extra magical when it's the English accent, right? He's oh my god I don't know what it is, but he really yeah It was like he he brought this whole thing to life and this this the audio that audio book won best uh action adventure audio book of 2022 by audio book reviewer. com audio book reviewer. com is like, uh, affiliated to with uh Audible. com. Right. Okay. Audible advertises them on You know, and then like, kind of like draw you to go there to do that. Cause it does help them, you know, their brand for sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, but that's still really excellent for you. And I do love that, you know, the it's really fun when you're a writer and you get to have someone perform it, I think, right. Oh, my God. That was that's the best thing about it, because you have you when you listen to it. back, right? And you're reviewing, you're like, is this, did I write this? Because they're acting it out. And I had like, uh, what was really cool with The Horrors of Willville, Sadie Sanders, she, you know, has to do a lot of characters, because you're talking about five different episodes, you know, different characters in each one. And just her voice is the way she did them. It's like, wait, that's how I wanted it to sound. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? And it's just when, when it's acted out to you, it's just, wow, it's, I mean, it's amazing. It makes it all worthwhile. It makes you want to keep doing more and more and more, you know, I'm like, yeah, for sure. Like, you know, how do I get to the, you know, get the next project finished and get that out because I want to see how that turns out. And yeah, no, it's again, kind of like our own little rabbit hole that we keep going down. Right. Just keep following that next story. That's, that's kind of revealing itself to you. Yeah, and those six books I did in those two years, it really takes a toll on you though, that, you know, it does, it took a toll to do them in that short order, it was, you know, I was neglecting a lot of things in my life personally, you know, my, my, my hygiene, not, not my hygiene, excuse me, I meant to say my, uh, my health. Well, yeah, mental health hygiene, right? Like, I mean, like that sort of, but the mental hygiene you have to do, like, because when you really are focused and you're, you're kind of in those projects, like, and I've been in those two where you kind of hit that flow state and you like, it's hours and hours go by and you're like, Oh, did I eat? Did I? I don't care about anything else. Right? Like you start to sort of like, Okay. neglect the things that like, Oh yeah, I probably should get up and move around and not in this same chair. I probably should go feed myself. You know, I probably should drink some water, but you're so in the zone, right? You just get lost. You want to get it done. And you know, see, a lot of times I think as a writer and I'm sure you can attest to this where you're sitting down and like you, like, I don't really feel like writing. I knew you write something and you look at it the next day and you go, I would have, if I didn't do that, I would have missed out on such an important piece here. I would have never Rewritten this that same way. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's, yeah, that's very, very true. And, I don't know, for me sometimes too, like, I'll write, It's interesting when you go back to things you wrote a while back, I think, and look at it and say, Oh, there was It's, it's kind of like you say, where you say like, Oh, did I write that? But there's also sometimes an element of, Oh, something was definitely talking to me in the space that I was in. It's like, there's messages in this for me, you know, like there's definitely something in here that was like that, that I was trying to figure out for myself that I was trying to sort of like, the solutions are there and the, you know, it's like, there's messages for me specifically in what's coming out to, and that's kind of, you know, that's always kind of fun. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. I was going to say, one practice that I stopped doing, I should pick it up again, is I used to walk around with those little pen pads or whatever, those little pocket pads. Okay. You'd be surprised how helpful it is to have just a pad to pull out and write stuff, because you see stuff. I used to just, you know, sit in my car and just look what I could see, write different, you see something awkward, write it down, you know what I mean, like, I think, yeah, Use my cell phone and I text myself. Yeah I i'm telling you man. It's it's just it's a savior Yeah, I will be like I just thought of something and i'll write a whole scene down And text it to myself and then forget about it and come back later. What did I say? I was gonna do Oh my god, that was great. You know, I wouldn't Yeah. I have a terrible memory. So why I'm a writer, I guess I have to write everything down. We match up a hundred percent. Oh, a hundred percent. Everything must be right. I have notebooks everywhere. And I'm just like, I have a notebook in my purse and I have like little, like Because the second I think of something, I'm like, you better write that down, you are going to forget. So, like, I am absolutely like that, just constantly, and I do this, like, I will, um, send myself stuff on, like, Facebook Messenger, like, to, so, like, I'm like, because, you know, I'm like, okay, I know I won't delete that, it'll just kind of stay in the file sort of thing, right? But the same thing, where it's like, oh, I better, Do jot that down now because you're gonna forget later and then you're gonna go back to it and be like, Oh, I need that. Yeah. And that's not regulated to just writing. That's grocery lists. Oh, yeah. I have to write a grocery list. If I could say three things, and if I don't write them down, I'm coming home with two of them. Oh no, that's a hundred, two of them and four other things that you didn't write. Yeah, I was just gonna say that. Right. And like ten other things that I didn't even go in and get. Yeah. And like as a guitar player too, if I didn't have a camera phone, I wouldn't remember anything I wrote. Because you're, you're always have to videotape yourself playing. Always. I play guitar and sing, man. We gotta, we gotta jam out one day. That would be great. I gotta send you some stuff. We can figure it out for sure. Absolutely. I would, I would love that. That way we could have like a Patreon hangout session. You guys like, I can, I can do lyrics. I'm not musical. Otherwise, that's the only help I could do. But you know. That would be super cool. Super fun. I love it. I was just jamming out yesterday. I went up, I went to Jersey, uh, see a couple of my friends and my mom and, uh, I was jamming out and I actually, I'm going to put it up on, uh, you'll be able to see it. I was jammed with a couple of friends yesterday. So I'm going to put that out on LinkedIn. So you'll check that out. Oh, I love it. Awesome. I was going to say, if you want to check out some good music, look up a band called Out. It's one of my buddy Ike's bands. Really? They're called Out. They're from Kalamazoo, Michigan. Okay. Look up an album called Billy. It's got a dog on it. It's a yellow cover with a dog on it. So yeah, check that out. That's one of my, that's one of my personal friends. Andy! What's that? They used to call, well, I mean, my name's William, Will, so they used to call my mom, Billy. So as soon as you said that brought me back. I got to check. Oh, nice. Yeah. We've had, we've had icon in the past. So if you want to know, I was going to say like, Ike is kind of a weird music person. Like you guys, I bet you guys would be super fun if you got together and like tried to do something. All three of us. Like a collaboration thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Check out my stuff first, just so you, so you, if you like it first, you know, don't get me in the band. I didn't even audition yet. You're good. Oh, no, just, just a, just a fun little jam session. You guys can get together like that. That'd be fun. I do definitely want to be respectful of your time. You know, we so, so appreciate you coming on. I would talk to you guys all day, to be honest with you. That's good fun. It's a lot of fun, but you're right. The Chiefs and the Ravens are starting. So I was going to say one more thing. If you want to watch that movie, it's all prison. Okay. Oh yeah. I'm going to probably follow up with you guys. And so once I, once I get this back, if I, if some of this is edited out, I definitely want to go back and reference some of this, because we talked about a lot of things. And again, with my memory, I am, but I've been writing it down. So this is my right down right here. Don't worry about it. We'll, we'll share it all out for you. So, but you let, um, before we go, let people know where they can find you. If they want to find all your stuff. Yeah, you can find me at will survive. com. Uh, it's will S A V I V E. com. All my stuff's there. This interview will be there. Uh, all my books links to where to buy them from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever. And we will definitely put that. We'll link that in the description below. So yes, do check it out. I am. I love your website already. I'm already super interested in the Oz story. I think yes, the embittered of Oz. I love the cover art and I love Sort of the idea of revisiting a very much classic that everyone's familiar with right, but it said you both a copy of it. If you like, I'll send you an email. You can check them out. 100%. Thank you so much. We'll survive for joining us today. This has been so much fun. We absolutely have to have you back and do keep us posted, please. If you get rocking and rolling on a series, we can help you promote. Oh, we would so love to have you back to talk about this business, about networking connections, you know what I mean? Cool people having great conversations like this. So they, you know, definitely we'll, we'll do the same. Yeah, anything you come up with, I'd love to 100%. Thank you so, so much for joining us. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. thanks so much for listening y'all. Hope you enjoyed our guests. I've been Haley and I've been Johnny and you've been listening to. Johnny Haley day of fun. Check us out on Patreon, patreon. com slash Johnny Haley. D O F email us at Johnny Haley, D O F at gmail. com and follow us on Tik TOK, Johnny Haley, D O F and on Instagram. And if you have any hate mail, do send it. We would love to read it on the podcast. Right, Johnny? For sure. Absolutely. Thanks again for listening y'all. Peace.