Hello, everybody.

I'm Jacqueline Strominger, the host of the Unstoppable Leadership Spotlight podcast where we hear from amazing leaders and people in the industry who give us their awesome insights and game changing ideas that help you become a better leader, which also helps your company be better and make more money.

So today I have an amazing guest, Andrew Davies.

He is, well, a lot of things, but he is the better meetings director of Artfully Artly Working.

Not artfully, but Artly Working, which uses improv and theater to help build stronger teams, which actually then helps make people happier, which is really great.

Since starting in 2019, Artly Working has led programs with over a hundred innovative companies like Netflix, Roadblocks, I should know that name.

Meta and Google.

Sometimes words just, you know, tongue tied, right?

This morning I haven't had enough coffee.

Anyway.

With training and improvisation from Magnet Theater and facilitation from Georgetown University, Andrew has become truly passionate about bringing his skills to strengthen company culture and people and the people experience.

So I want to just welcome you to the show because the this is like, you know, creating better culture, better people is all about better leadership.

So welcome Andrew, and I'm curious, what made you start this venture?

Absolutely.

Well, thanks Jacqueline so much for having me on the show.

I've been loving listening to it and learning from other leaders and so excited to be here.

So Artly Working really started and I'm a co founder with my good friend Dave Clasco, who's in Brooklyn.

And it really started with our passion of bringing the tools and skills of theater and improv to help workplaces have stronger teams and happier people.

We were hearing all the time from our friends in, let's say, more traditional jobs that they're just struggling as a team, struggling with their coworkers, struggling with their employees.

Didn't really know where to start.

And so often I think we are diagnosing the symptoms right, rather than the real problem, which is the company culture and which is the, you know, the pool that everyone is swimming in that is sort of toxic and ruining everything.

And we're trying to solve individual people when really like someone has peed in the pool and we need to like get a new pool, new water to float in.

So that's really our goal.

And so we started in about 2019 and really got busy during COVID when people were struggling with how do we stay connected as a team, how do we do positive things together and in good and bad ways, people rethought what work looks like.

So we've been excited to get into them and then we can talk more about later.

But I really got passionate about better meetings, which is why that's my main focus.

So, so one thing that you just said and I, and we, I do want to talk about so many different things, but one thing that you just said, you know, company culture is so important.

It's.

And leadership.

So, you know, and to me it starts at the top or it starts at the top of the team lead.

So what do you think?

Or what is like the insight or the game changer to basically, as you just said, change the pee water Because.

Because that leader might be the one that's been peeing in the pool.

Yeah, absolutely.

It definitely, the tone gets set at the top and the top of the team or the top of the organization or both.

And the leader, the way they react, I think emotionally to their team makes a huge, huge difference.

And I think this is something that's really goes unnoticed or unspoken about enough, which is not just what you do, but how you do it, how you say things.

So when we visit teams and we're working together, we will often see that, you know, the team seems to be good people, they seem to be smart, but it's clear that the leader really is dismissive of their ideas when they're different.

Right.

And it's not just that they're dismissing them, but it's how they're dismissing them in a way that makes people really like shut down or go into their own bubbles or sometimes alternately.

The leader is really kind of energetic and bouncing all over the place and sets the tone that everyone can just kind of be frenetic and doing whatever they want and no one is able to stay focused on the mission.

You know, it's funny to hear this on a podcast, but my, my sister had a former boss who, they would have meetings and they would have an hour long meeting and he would just kind of pontificate and talk about this and that and his life and nonsense.

And it would have to be in the last five minutes that she would kind of have to manage up and say, can we actually talk about what we're doing this week, like the deadlines?

And we joked that he really had his own podcast rather than a team.

Right.

He was just kind of talking at them.

And you know, for me, the, the, the biggest way that, that leadership sets the tone in a good or a bad way are the meetings, right?

Or is the collective time together?

So, so that's really the focal point of intervention that I see as so important.

You know, I would I 100% agree with you and I have an idea that.

But I want to ask you because I love this idea of the meeting being that the starting point.

So what made you think that, like that the meeting was that point?

You know, it started with the problem that I just kept hearing over and over again from Friends, which was, you know, I spent all of yesterday in meetings and I didn't get anything done.

And as someone that works independently and you know, runs, runs my own organizations, I was like, what do you mean?

What are you talking about?

And they said, yeah, well, every Tuesday we meet for three hours and we go over things as a team, but we don't really do anything.

We all just kind of sit there and wait for our turn to speak or we all let the boss talk and we're just kind of on our email and trying to get things done at the same time.

So I felt that the meetings are really what set the tone for.

Is this a collaborative work environment?

Is this a work environment where your voice and your work is valued?

Or is this a place where you are told to kind of sit quietly, do what you're told.

And that can include sit quietly while other people are talking, even though you don't have to be here.

And so a meeting every week can really set the tone of like, we're a fun place, we're an engaged place, we want to get a lot of things done.

We're.

Or it can set the tone that like we're meeting for the sake of meeting, we're working for the sake of working, but we don't really care where we go.

So there's just a lot of ways in which that group time is so valuable.

And, and just on the practical level, right, if I spend an hour working on a project, that's one thing.

But if there's 20 of us on a meeting for an hour, that's like 20 hours of people's time that we've used.

So are we actually using that time well, or are we meeting because it's on the calendar?

It could have been an email, you know.

Right.

And it's so true.

And so, you know, I, I'm a firm believer that, that meetings first and foremost depending upon the type of meeting.

But if it's like a company wide meeting, I'm a believer that there needs to be, the mission of the company needs to be stated.

It's almost like, like the pledge of allegiance or like the preamble in the constitution, like it's the thing that's going to set the tone of what we're actually doing and kind of gets people set in the mind.

So how do you, how do you, you know, what's your thought on that?

And the other thing is, is how do you get those meetings to be productive?

Yeah, I, I love the idea of coming back to your mission and sort of your why statement.

Right.

As like, Simon Sinek might say.

Right.

Is the kind of why of why we're meeting, why we're working, where we're going.

Because that can be a good North Star.

And that can also help you check in over.

Does this meeting need to happen?

Like a simple, really piece of advice I have for everyone that runs a team, runs an organization is five minutes before every meeting.

Pause.

Check in with yourself.

And the first question to ask is, do we need to have this meeting?

Should we have this meeting?

Because if the answer is no, let people know, hey, I know we had a meeting on the calendar, but I don't think we need to have a meeting.

So unless someone else it says I'm missing something giant, I think we should, you know, meet another time.

There's no reason to not have that check in and just say, like, do I want to do this?

Right.

It's.

It's for our personal lives as well.

Right.

If you've bought tickets to a movie and then the movie time rolls around, you're like, I don't want to see this movie or whatever.

Check in with yourself.

And like, notice that.

Right.

You know, behavioral economists call this, like, the sunken cost fallacy.

If we've already committed to something, we've already put in effort, we just go ahead with it.

So that's the first thing is, should we have this meeting?

And then I have an ABCs that I recommend to people to check in on the purpose of the meeting, to help them design the meeting.

And this could be something that you do in an hour or something you do in two minutes right before the meeting.

Okay, so what's the ABC?

Yeah, I have to tell you.

So now it's ABC.

I know.

So.

So there's a lot of ABCs in the world for me, the ABCs of meetings.

This really comes from my facilitation training at Georgetown that I've adapted for four companies.

Is A is the effective what do you want people to feel?

How do you want people to feel coming out of this meeting?

B is behavioral.

What do you want people to do during this meeting and following the meeting?

And C is cognitive.

What do you want people to know during the meeting, following the meeting?

And these Three can be a five minute check in right before it starts, or it can be part of much longer planning process depending on the importance of the meeting, how many people are involved, you know, the stakes of the meeting.

But I think these really are crucial, which is like, what are we doing together?

What, what are we actually trying to do in the B, the behavioral, the A, the effective is what so often gets ignored, which is like, what is the tone of this meeting?

Are we here to celebrate our accomplishments of the year?

Are we here because we're struggling and we need people to get worried and get nervous that we're not going to reach our goals?

Right.

Those are two very different meetings.

And it's important going in to know what is the tone, what is the energy that we're trying to create in the room and that'll lead us to kind of how we run the meeting.

And then to see the cognitive is really what information is critical that we know by the time this meeting is done.

So that if we have an hour meeting, I know I have to cover these five bullet points before we go.

Wherever else the conversation goes, that's like critical because meetings in a good and a bad way can go off the rails.

Right.

In, in a conversational way.

Sometimes in a good way, something comes up that you weren't prepared for.

So it's really important to go in with being like, here's what I definitely need to cover to make sure we, we get those points before, before we get out abc.

So I, I love that.

So what I'm so in that when you have that meeting.

Yeah.

Where in your, where in that if is does and I guess is this part of the A effective?

Yeah.

Do you create accountability or actions?

Yeah.

So for me that, that falls into the like behavior, the B which is what behavior do we want to do during this meeting and what is critical to be conveyed, to be done after the meeting.

Right.

So I think it's important to think about both.

Like during this meeting we are going to create our action steps for this new project we're doing this new, you know, promotion we're launching.

And then the B for after the meeting is making sure I've assigned each person to their next action step.

So that definitely will be part of your plan.

But that's definitely part of the B is like what are the critical Bs coming out of that?

And of course those could be added on as you go on.

Right.

You could come up with an amazing new idea, but we need to do some research for it.

So you assign that newly.

But going into the meeting is like, what is the kind of minimum?

Abc.

Yeah.

You know, I love that because I think that's actually one of the things that I.

That I.

That seems to get lost a lot.

Like, there's, you know, you meet, you talk, you know, even if it's like a sales meeting.

Right.

Like a sales meeting happen.

Saying, Monday morning, sales meeting.

This is where we are.

This is what we're doing.

Okay, great.

Yay.

What are the action steps afterwards?

Right.

You know, giving somebody, giving each person in that room an action item and then a point or a person for accountability.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think checking in, you know, about the worthwhileness of the meeting, this is part of it, Right.

Which is like, if Jacqueline, if you're in a meeting that I'm leading and I'm going through the bees, and I'm like, I don't think Jacqueline has any B's coming as me.

I don't think she has any behavior she needs to do anything she needs to do, then this probably isn't a meeting that's relevant to you.

Right.

So it's also checking in and saying you won't be offended that you don't have to go to the meeting.

Right.

If I say, oh, Jacqueline, you're doing great on your projects.

This is all actually all about this other project.

So, like, you don't need to be a part of this meeting is so much better than you being part of the meeting and then coming out of it saying, like, wait, did I.

Did I need to be there?

Do I need to do anything?

This didn't seem relevant to me.

Yeah.

Okay, so now let me ask a question, because you also have the part of improv and theater.

How do you bring that into the meetings with the fun?

Yeah, absolutely.

So we have a better meetings template that I shared.

I'm happy to share with your listeners for free.

That kind of has a structure to a meeting.

And I always recommend starting with a hook, something interactive and playful to get people excited about whatever the theme is of the meeting.

Right.

And so there's lots of games that we offer and share.

Some are collaborative, some are brainstorming.

Like, if I'm trying to get the group to think really positively and not be negative on each other.

If I've been feeling we've been negative, I love playing a game called Band Names and recommend this.

So we all have bands.

We love.

Their names don't really matter.

Right.

We love the music because it's the music.

Right.

I don't love the Beatles or Third Eye Blind, because that's their name.

That's just their name.

But so the way band name works is with a partner, you just take turns making up band names and the other person just has to say, I.

I love it.

Right.

So, like, I could say like, you know, dolphin for lunch, and you'd say, I love it.

Right.

Or, you know, glasses are lost and we say, I love it.

And it's just practicing noticing our brains, judging the idea, being like, that's a dumb band name, and then forcing ourselves to say, yeah, that's a great band name.

Right.

To just keep it positive.

If that's, if that's the tone, if that's the tone that we want to strike for this meeting is like we're brainstorming.

We don't want people to shut down each other's ideas.

That might be one.

I would start with, like an improv game like that.

I, you know, I really love that because actually what I.

What I love is I've done facilitating and I love being able to.

We used to, you know, doing the detours and having people, like, think outside the box and, you know, something that's like, totally random.

Like, think of all the things that you can think about when you think of, you know, Elvis.

Right.

You know, But I love that idea of band names and the positivity, because that does.

I like the trick with the brain.

So that's a great.

That's a great.

Is there another way that you bring out the fun or to create the fun for teams in the meetings as well?

Because, you know, as I was looking on your website, some of the things that people said for some of the reviews, which I thought were amazing, which were people got to know each other.

And I'm a big believer that that's actually one of the areas that, you know, you could talk about it as emotional intelligence, you could talk about it different things, but people need to get to know the people on their teams and what they want.

So share a little bit about how that incorporates with what you're doing, because it obviously came in.

Came out of as a huge testimonial.

Yeah, no, I think that's so critical, and I think that that speaks to the trust that you need on a good team.

And an effective team is really getting to know each other.

You know, you can tell people on day one, trust each other.

We're all on the same team.

Right.

But they won't feel it and they won't act on that from the get go.

You really have to cultivate that care and that nutrition.

Like one I love to play with people and suggest is just called four in one, which is a facilitation technique.

You may have done something like that.

Where you find a small group of people is, let's say groups of four.

And you say, find four things you have in common.

And one thing that's unique to each of you to share.

And what's great is you can play that with people on day one or on day 1000, and you'll always find new things and just to find those points of connection and make those connections.

Sometimes I like to do movement games as well.

Like, we're moving around the circle, where we'll be in a circle and we'll say, okay, I want you to think of some hobby, something that you love in your free time.

Completely unrelated to work.

Right.

Completely unrelated to your job and your work, whether it's hiking or tennis or chess.

And then how to act it out physically.

And we go around the circle saying our names and acting out.

Like Michael Chess.

Right.

And like Jennifer hiking.

And we go around a few times and play some games with that.

But what's great is, you know, something new about your colleague.

You have kind of a new fun association with them, and you get to know each other's personality a little bit and make connections.

Where every time we play, at some point someone's like, oh, I didn't know you like to go hiking too.

Like, we should go hiking.

That's awesome.

So to bring in your full self is another part of it too.

I think it's really important when we're working, obviously we're mostly working on in a specific field together.

But to not forget that we are whole rounded human beings and that.

That's a big part of, you know, being a successful team and trusting each other is recognizing that.

That whole self.

Yeah.

All right, so let's get to some of the numbers.

So you're working with people.

How.

How is what you're doing and working with you with, you know, better meetings, changing the bottom line.

So the feedback that we've gotten from a lot of these organizations is that the time saved of using meetings correctly is.

Is huge.

So a lot of teams have told us that they used to spend eight to 10 hours a week on, like, team meetings, and now it's more like one or two hours on those meetings.

And that their productivity has gone up because of that, because their.

Their team is clear on what they have to do, what they need to do, and their leadership is using people's time more effectively.

And like, time is just the number one resource that all of our teams have.

And so to use that more effectively has really been a big deal for teams.

The other one, the other big way it affects the bottom line is employee retention.

You know, it costs a fortune to find, recruit, interview, train onboard new employees.

And I think companies are starting to recognize that if they can do things to make people have a better office experience, to feel more connected to the work.

And I love what you shared about sharing the mission every time in your meeting.

I think is great, but that that makes such a difference in employee retention and employee productivity.

So that's the other feedback that we've heard.

And there's some companies for whom we are part of their onboarding.

Every new group that they hire, and it's because they've really seen that the employee retention has really gone up because they like the company culture more.

They want to be there.

Right.

That is.

You know what?

I really love this.

Yeah.

I could talk to you for absolutely hours and hours and hours because it's such a huge, like, big thing for me.

What is one thing you want everybody to walk away with?

Well, the ABCs for sure, of meetings.

I really.

And, and as I said, if anyone wants to reach out and get the meeting template, I'm happy to share that with them.

And I think that's really great.

Another phrase that I'll share that I really love to teach leaders and I use with all of my teams when I'm leading them, is that after programs, we always share EBIs, which stands for even better ifs, EBI even better ifs.

And the framing of what we did was great and would even better if we did something else is so important at allowing for criticism, allowing for feedback, allowing for improvement without quickly slipping into negativity or without people feeling like they can't be critical because they'll be seen as being negative or mean or putting you down.

But as a leader, as a boss, to constantly say, I want to hear what we could have done better, what would be the even better ifs really allows everyone on the team to always be thinking about how could things be better?

And it's not saying we were did badly.

It's not saying we were garbage today.

It's just, it'll be even better if we did this.

And I found that to be really critical in helping everyone on the team to make things better.

I.

I really, I really love that because it's also being done in a positive way, as you share.

And that's, I think One of the biggest things if we, you know, and I'm going to say, listeners, as you hear this, it creates and helps create the positive language and the words that we say matter.

And so using that really helps frame the positivity language which we all need and I think we need more of.

So, Andrew, I could talk to you for hours.

How can people get a hold of you, connect with you and get the sheet or actually I want to make sure that you actually send it to me and I can put it in the show notes.

Great.

Yeah, I'll definitely send it to you.

Yeah, they can just reach out.

My email is andrewtlyworking.com A R T L Y like hardly working.

Artlyworking.com they can reach out and happy to share, you know, all the programs that we're up to where they can find us and we do things remotely and in person.

We're based in New York and Philly, but we, we do a lot of things remote in, you know, this day and age.

That's, that's absolutely fantastic.

So, listeners, please reach out to Andrew, connect with him, go to, send him an email, chat with him on his website, check with him on LinkedIn.

I just want to remind you, this is the Unstoppable Leadership Spotlight podcast and I am your host and I want to share.

If you have enjoyed this and you have found any tips, information that is worthy, please subscribe and also share this because the more we share, the better and we can help everybody grow and we want to change the world one leader at a time and helping everybody be unstoppable again.

I'm Jacqueline Strominger, your host and thank you all for listening.