1 00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:11,820 Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce podcast 2 00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:14,040 with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,510 The eCommerce podcast is all about helping you to deliver eCommerce. 4 00:00:19,030 --> 00:00:19,450 Wow. 5 00:00:19,570 --> 00:00:24,670 And to help us do just that, I am chatting with today's very special guest, Tom 6 00:00:24,670 --> 00:00:30,550 Kulzer, who is the founder and CEO of AWeber, about how to grow your online 7 00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:32,920 business using email marketing strategies. 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,575 But before Tom and I get into that. 9 00:00:35,815 --> 00:00:40,075 Let me suggest a few other eCommerce podcast episodes that I think you're 10 00:00:40,075 --> 00:00:42,115 also gonna enjoy listening to. 11 00:00:42,145 --> 00:00:46,255 Why not check out a recent episode with Daniel Budai, the Secrets of 12 00:00:46,255 --> 00:00:48,325 Retaining Customers with email marketing. 13 00:00:48,535 --> 00:00:52,225 What a legend in that guy is, and also check out how to optimize 14 00:00:52,225 --> 00:00:56,510 engagement through customer lifestyle marketing with Cath Pay. 15 00:00:56,810 --> 00:01:00,160 I still remember Cath Pay being in a very tropical location 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:01,450 when we recorded that episode. 17 00:01:01,450 --> 00:01:02,620 So do check those out. 18 00:01:02,950 --> 00:01:07,510 You can find these and our entire archive of episodes on our website 19 00:01:07,510 --> 00:01:10,690 for free ecommercepodcast.net. 20 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:14,890 Uh, and on our website you can also sign up to our email's newsletter. 21 00:01:15,555 --> 00:01:18,255 Which I feel very good about given today's guest. 22 00:01:18,285 --> 00:01:23,385 Uh, and each week we will email you, uh, these links along with the notes and 23 00:01:23,385 --> 00:01:28,185 the transcript from today's conversation with Tom directly to your inbox. 24 00:01:28,185 --> 00:01:28,725 Totally free. 25 00:01:28,725 --> 00:01:29,535 It's all good stuff. 26 00:01:29,625 --> 00:01:30,765 It's all totally amazing. 27 00:01:31,485 --> 00:01:37,010 Now, this episode is brought to you by, The e-commerce cohort, which helps you 28 00:01:37,015 --> 00:01:39,970 deliver e-commerce wow to your customers. 29 00:01:40,340 --> 00:01:44,840 You know what, I've come across a bunch of folks who find e-commerce. 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,720 It's a bit of an overwhelming topic, shall we say. 31 00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:51,380 Uh, you've gotta keep it with the tech, which changes so fast. 32 00:01:51,890 --> 00:01:56,480 How do you do customer service when everybody's taste and habits 33 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,360 are changing all of the time. 34 00:01:58,660 --> 00:02:01,205 And to top it all off, you've gotta stay on top of all the latest 35 00:02:01,205 --> 00:02:02,765 marketing techniques and ideas. 36 00:02:02,795 --> 00:02:06,575 So we talk about all of these things, obviously, on the e-commerce podcast. 37 00:02:07,085 --> 00:02:11,985 But for those of you in e-commerce, you should also check out ecommercecohort.com. 38 00:02:12,005 --> 00:02:16,135 It is a membership group for those who are in e-commerce. 39 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:21,290 And it does guided monthly sprints that cycle through all the key areas of E-com. 40 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:22,550 You'll keep up to date. 41 00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:26,030 You'll be working on the key areas of your e-commerce business, including 42 00:02:26,030 --> 00:02:28,940 your marketing and email marketing like we're talking about today. 43 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:33,530 So whether you are just starting out in e-commerce or if like me, you 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,675 are a well established e-commercer. 45 00:02:35,925 --> 00:02:37,875 I encourage you to get involved. 46 00:02:37,875 --> 00:02:40,945 Check it out, uh, ecommercecohort.com. 47 00:02:40,965 --> 00:02:43,695 That's ecommercecohort.com. 48 00:02:44,235 --> 00:02:49,995 Now, before I get into today's conversation, uh, I just wanna, just wanna 49 00:02:49,995 --> 00:02:52,005 read out the bio that's in front of me. 50 00:02:52,005 --> 00:02:57,584 Tom is the founder and CEO of AWeber, the leading email marketing platform, 51 00:02:57,945 --> 00:03:01,845 uh, and automation platform for small businesses where he is actively 52 00:03:02,245 --> 00:03:04,605 involved in the company's strategic. 53 00:03:04,635 --> 00:03:05,355 That's not easy to say. 54 00:03:05,565 --> 00:03:09,105 Company's strategic direction, growth and evolution. 55 00:03:09,375 --> 00:03:14,204 Over the company's 24 year history, Tom has nurtured AWeber from a small 56 00:03:14,209 --> 00:03:18,135 startup to a robust organization that we've all heard of, we all know 57 00:03:18,135 --> 00:03:22,741 about, and has enabled over 1 million customers to grow their businesses. 58 00:03:23,081 --> 00:03:25,820 All without public or venture funding. 59 00:03:26,359 --> 00:03:26,600 Go. 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:27,739 Tom, that's amazing. 61 00:03:27,739 --> 00:03:30,649 Tom, great to have you here on the e-Commerce podcast. 62 00:03:30,649 --> 00:03:34,010 Thank you for taking time out of your no doubt, insanely busy 63 00:03:34,015 --> 00:03:36,230 schedule to join us, uh, here today. 64 00:03:36,859 --> 00:03:38,299 Tom Kulzer: Thanks for having me on today, Matt. 65 00:03:38,630 --> 00:03:39,280 Matt Edmundson: Oh, no worries. 66 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,120 Tom Kulzer: Looking forward to the conversation. 67 00:03:40,190 --> 00:03:41,269 Matt Edmundson: Oh yeah, it's gonna be great. 68 00:03:41,420 --> 00:03:44,480 So for those you know, for the four people listening to the podcast 69 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,920 that actually hasn't heard of AWeber, um, just tell us, uh, what 70 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:50,450 is AWeber and what do you guys do? 71 00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:51,650 Tom Kulzer: Yeah. 72 00:03:51,650 --> 00:03:53,415 We're a email marketing platform. 73 00:03:53,415 --> 00:03:57,135 So think of us as the, uh, you know, automation behind 74 00:03:57,135 --> 00:03:59,275 communicating with your subscribers. 75 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,405 So when you publish an email newsletter, you log into AWeber to create that 76 00:04:03,410 --> 00:04:05,204 newsletter and send that content out. 77 00:04:05,655 --> 00:04:06,825 Uh, when you think about. 78 00:04:06,890 --> 00:04:10,760 You know, automation sequences that people talk about or automated follow up. 79 00:04:10,910 --> 00:04:13,820 Our platform is the one that enables you to, to do that. 80 00:04:13,820 --> 00:04:17,510 So when somebody clicks on an email or clicks on a link, you send a 81 00:04:17,510 --> 00:04:20,959 certain email, you know, they open a message, they don't open a message, 82 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:22,760 you send a different email, et cetera. 83 00:04:22,789 --> 00:04:26,990 So our platform is the one that enables small businesses around the world to, 84 00:04:27,020 --> 00:04:30,785 to be able to send those communications out to the people that requested them. 85 00:04:31,505 --> 00:04:32,285 Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. 86 00:04:32,345 --> 00:04:37,415 Now, I'm kind of curious, where did the name AWeber come from? 87 00:04:37,475 --> 00:04:39,905 Because it's not, well, it's not. 88 00:04:40,115 --> 00:04:42,035 It's not what I would've named an email company. 89 00:04:42,035 --> 00:04:42,425 Do you know what I mean? 90 00:04:42,425 --> 00:04:44,735 It's not a sort of top, unless I'm missing something. 91 00:04:44,775 --> 00:04:45,525 Tom Kulzer: It's not off the head. 92 00:04:45,555 --> 00:04:46,045 Yeah. 93 00:04:46,045 --> 00:04:46,245 Yeah. 94 00:04:46,970 --> 00:04:51,980 So back in 90, early 98, we were calling it the automated web 95 00:04:51,980 --> 00:04:54,380 assistant, and it's before it launched. 96 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:56,330 So now it's making more sense, eh? 97 00:04:56,540 --> 00:04:57,230 Yeah. 98 00:04:58,700 --> 00:05:03,345 So you know, automated web assistant is like a really long domain name 99 00:05:03,525 --> 00:05:07,695 and that's just not particularly catchy, so it kind of got shortened 100 00:05:07,695 --> 00:05:10,545 and it's like, aweb, aweb ass. 101 00:05:10,635 --> 00:05:11,275 No, no, no. 102 00:05:15,555 --> 00:05:18,155 It just turned into aweber. 103 00:05:18,354 --> 00:05:21,565 And, you know, historically, it's, it's one of those things that's 104 00:05:21,565 --> 00:05:24,594 like, it begins with an A, it's short, it's catchy, it's unique. 105 00:05:25,044 --> 00:05:28,914 Um, and, and it's just kind of a memorable thing when, when somebody hears it, 106 00:05:28,914 --> 00:05:31,495 we always capitalize the A and the w. 107 00:05:32,354 --> 00:05:37,724 But not the e because, you know, it's not the, uh, assistant part, but, 108 00:05:37,724 --> 00:05:42,375 uh, yeah, no, it's just, it was one of those kind of funny naming, uh, 109 00:05:42,405 --> 00:05:44,294 historical bits that we hung onto. 110 00:05:45,075 --> 00:05:46,965 Matt Edmundson: That's really funny how that, how these things 111 00:05:46,969 --> 00:05:48,044 sort of come about, isn't it? 112 00:05:48,049 --> 00:05:48,525 And the story. 113 00:05:48,530 --> 00:05:49,455 So yeah. 114 00:05:49,455 --> 00:05:50,505 How did you get started? 115 00:05:50,510 --> 00:05:54,284 How did AWeber get started and did you just wake up one day and think, I'm gonna 116 00:05:54,284 --> 00:05:55,665 help people conquer the world of Email? 117 00:05:56,625 --> 00:05:57,780 Tom Kulzer: No, not at all. 118 00:05:58,265 --> 00:06:02,420 Uh, I was actually, uh, I was studying mechanical engineering in, uh, college. 119 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:07,140 And I was, um, I was selling this wireless modem. 120 00:06:07,169 --> 00:06:11,010 Uh, so this was back when we still had dial up modems, uh, 121 00:06:11,015 --> 00:06:12,450 for connecting to the internet. 122 00:06:12,450 --> 00:06:16,560 So like wireless technology that you could, you know, Velcro to the back 123 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,760 of your laptop was, uh, was, you know, the latest, greatest thing. 124 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,719 And I was selling this at computer shows and I was basically a sales rep for it. 125 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,740 And, you know, in the process being a college student. 126 00:06:27,740 --> 00:06:33,225 I was kind of lazy and you know, actually selling things required follow up. 127 00:06:33,225 --> 00:06:36,165 Like I didn't just see them at the computer show and they instantly bought 128 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:39,465 this expensive device and then paid for an expensive monthly service. 129 00:06:39,705 --> 00:06:42,105 They had more questions or they weren't sold right away, and you 130 00:06:42,105 --> 00:06:43,425 had to kind of follow up with them. 131 00:06:43,635 --> 00:06:47,685 So I'd send these manual emails and that's a lot of work, hence 132 00:06:47,685 --> 00:06:49,635 the lazy college student aspect. 133 00:06:49,635 --> 00:06:53,190 I wrote a little program that would automatically send out the 134 00:06:53,190 --> 00:06:57,900 messages because 90% of the messages that I sent were the same message 135 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:00,630 to each of the different people, and I customized a little bit. 136 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:06,060 Um, and, uh, yeah, so I, I wrote this and I ended up sharing it with 137 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:09,419 other salespeople around the country that were selling this same product. 138 00:07:10,055 --> 00:07:13,594 And my payment for that was send me the messages that are working. 139 00:07:13,655 --> 00:07:16,474 I wanna know what copy works, because that was not something 140 00:07:16,474 --> 00:07:17,885 I was particularly good at. 141 00:07:18,125 --> 00:07:21,245 So we shared them and I would share 'em off to other people, and we all sold 142 00:07:21,245 --> 00:07:25,685 more as a result of both this automated email tool and sharing copy that works. 143 00:07:25,685 --> 00:07:26,974 So we had the right messaging. 144 00:07:27,895 --> 00:07:29,005 One thing led to another. 145 00:07:29,005 --> 00:07:31,825 I ended up leaving that company to focus on school. 146 00:07:31,945 --> 00:07:34,344 Uh, somebody was telling me that was important. 147 00:07:34,344 --> 00:07:34,765 Parents. 148 00:07:35,605 --> 00:07:39,430 And, uh, I stopped running that program that was sending out all the 149 00:07:39,565 --> 00:07:43,315 automated follow-ups for all these other people around the country, and 150 00:07:43,315 --> 00:07:46,284 they started coming to me saying, Hey, I'll pay you for that thing that 151 00:07:46,345 --> 00:07:47,995 I was previously getting for free. 152 00:07:47,995 --> 00:07:49,585 And I was like, Hm. 153 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:51,870 Maybe there's a business here. 154 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:56,970 Maybe just, um, and that turned into our automated web assistant, 155 00:07:57,030 --> 00:07:58,990 uh, that turned into AWeber. 156 00:07:59,015 --> 00:08:00,420 Many years later, here we are. 157 00:08:01,110 --> 00:08:01,590 Matt Edmundson: Wow. 158 00:08:01,950 --> 00:08:02,820 It's funny, isn't it? 159 00:08:02,825 --> 00:08:05,670 How, um, when? 160 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,020 Can I ask when was it you wrote this first little program? 161 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:11,910 Tom Kulzer: So it was like 97. 162 00:08:12,270 --> 00:08:12,870 Matt Edmundson: 97. 163 00:08:13,260 --> 00:08:14,480 So 98. 164 00:08:15,705 --> 00:08:18,045 In 98, I wrote my first ever website. 165 00:08:18,405 --> 00:08:19,935 It was around 97, 98. 166 00:08:20,415 --> 00:08:23,385 And then that sort of one thing led to another and that ended 167 00:08:23,390 --> 00:08:24,765 up, right, an e-commerce site. 168 00:08:24,765 --> 00:08:26,115 And then that led to something else. 169 00:08:26,115 --> 00:08:28,155 And then that led to, and then here I am today. 170 00:08:28,155 --> 00:08:28,425 Right. 171 00:08:28,485 --> 00:08:33,345 And I find it fascinating, uh, Tom, that you kind of, the amount of journeys 172 00:08:33,345 --> 00:08:35,715 that start off with, I was in college. 173 00:08:35,939 --> 00:08:40,559 Or I was at uni, or I was young, had a lot of time on my hands, and I just 174 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,520 played around with dot, dot, dot. 175 00:08:42,870 --> 00:08:45,600 And 20 years later, here I am dot, dot, dot. 176 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,050 Do you know what I mean? 177 00:08:46,050 --> 00:08:49,950 It's that kind of really fascinating story to me, and that seems to be yours, right? 178 00:08:50,550 --> 00:08:51,660 Tom Kulzer: Yeah, no, absolutely. 179 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:55,830 At the time I was, you know, single and, uh, racing bicycles, 180 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:57,480 uh, kind of in the amateur level. 181 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,400 So if I was either not, uh, you know, not in school or not riding 182 00:09:02,405 --> 00:09:05,640 my bike, I was sitting in front of a computer, uh, messing around with 183 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,090 code and, you know, just seeing what I could kind of hack away on. 184 00:09:09,150 --> 00:09:12,180 I was part of a number of, uh, different like kind of newsletters. 185 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:15,750 I moderated a newsletter that basically took kind of entrepreneurial. 186 00:09:16,755 --> 00:09:18,615 Just something that was always interesting to me. 187 00:09:19,005 --> 00:09:22,875 So I kind of, I, I created this little ecosystem around me 188 00:09:22,875 --> 00:09:24,495 that was other entrepreneurs. 189 00:09:24,944 --> 00:09:29,415 Uh, so when I ultimately, I kind of launched AWeber to a larger group. 190 00:09:29,444 --> 00:09:32,715 I launched it to this group of entrepreneurs that were in other 191 00:09:32,715 --> 00:09:36,435 businesses, and I, you know, instantly had traction as a result of that 192 00:09:36,435 --> 00:09:38,365 because I, they already knew who I was. 193 00:09:38,395 --> 00:09:42,750 Yeah, like I, I had some element of validation even though I was very upfront 194 00:09:42,750 --> 00:09:44,459 in the fact that I was a college student. 195 00:09:44,459 --> 00:09:47,819 I was still figuring this out, but I had developed this thing that 196 00:09:47,819 --> 00:09:51,300 was really useful for a lot of people and they instantly saw the 197 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:53,729 value in that and became customers. 198 00:09:53,729 --> 00:09:58,439 So, you know, and I think there's this path that happens 199 00:09:58,439 --> 00:10:00,209 for a lot of businesses that. 200 00:10:02,204 --> 00:10:06,465 Just getting a little bit of traction in where you're actually adding value 201 00:10:06,465 --> 00:10:10,064 and solving your own problems, but solving other people's problems is 202 00:10:10,064 --> 00:10:14,055 really, really, you know, is really the point that you need to get. 203 00:10:14,055 --> 00:10:19,935 I think a lot of the media obsesses around entrepreneurs that raise money, 204 00:10:20,465 --> 00:10:25,325 As like, you know, this, this level of success, and it's like, I've never 205 00:10:25,325 --> 00:10:27,845 looked at that as a point of success. 206 00:10:27,845 --> 00:10:32,165 It's like, okay, I convinced a small board of people to gimme a whole lot of money. 207 00:10:32,645 --> 00:10:37,085 That's very different than convincing a whole lot of businesses that the 208 00:10:37,085 --> 00:10:39,465 thing that you're selling is valuable and they want to give me money. 209 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,459 Yeah, it's two completely different dichotomies and, and I think the press and 210 00:10:44,459 --> 00:10:48,959 the, the general public, you know, kind of romanticizes raising a whole bunch of 211 00:10:48,959 --> 00:10:53,459 money, which to me is just like a ticking time bomb because eventually if you don't 212 00:10:53,459 --> 00:10:56,810 have customers paying for whatever it is that you're selling, that money runs out. 213 00:10:57,765 --> 00:10:57,974 Yeah. 214 00:10:57,974 --> 00:10:59,985 And you have to do some big changes. 215 00:10:59,985 --> 00:11:05,505 Either raise more money, sell the company, fold, whatever, versus building a business 216 00:11:05,530 --> 00:11:10,365 in a company that kind of has legs and can stand on its own two feet and continue 217 00:11:10,365 --> 00:11:15,495 to grow and, you know, perpetuate for as, as long as, as long as those customers 218 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:16,875 find value in what you're selling. 219 00:11:17,735 --> 00:11:18,435 Matt Edmundson: No, I agree. 220 00:11:18,435 --> 00:11:21,735 I think it's, um, I think, like you say, it's been overhyped 221 00:11:21,735 --> 00:11:23,025 the whole raising finance thing. 222 00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:25,650 It's got, it's, it's got problems, right? 223 00:11:25,650 --> 00:11:26,790 It's not all glamorous. 224 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:31,739 And, um, I, I know like with that, um, e-commerce, we sold a big 225 00:11:31,744 --> 00:11:32,969 e-commerce business last year. 226 00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:35,970 I have another one uh, still running. 227 00:11:36,449 --> 00:11:37,949 Both of those companies? 228 00:11:38,010 --> 00:11:38,280 Oh, yeah. 229 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:38,910 Thanks. 230 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,140 Uh, both of those. 231 00:11:40,140 --> 00:11:40,650 Right. 232 00:11:40,770 --> 00:11:46,980 Um, I have a very simple philosophy in that whatever stock we have, we own. 233 00:11:47,579 --> 00:11:49,949 So I don't buy stock on invoice. 234 00:11:49,954 --> 00:11:52,680 I don't, um, I don't do that. 235 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:54,480 I, I prepay for everything. 236 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,790 If that, I mean, the site we have now, we manufacture, so we 237 00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:57,840 definitely gotta pay for everything. 238 00:11:58,170 --> 00:12:01,920 But before, when we had the beauty site, I, everything on our shelves we owned. 239 00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:06,495 And so when you in effect hit those problems, when there was downturns. 240 00:12:06,495 --> 00:12:10,584 I didn't have to concern myself with trying to scramble to find the cash to 241 00:12:10,584 --> 00:12:13,285 pay the invoices as well as payroll. 242 00:12:13,405 --> 00:12:18,204 And there's something to be said, certainly from my point of view about, 243 00:12:18,295 --> 00:12:19,735 I'd just call it organic growth. 244 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:22,525 The ability just to go out, find some more customers, serve those 245 00:12:22,525 --> 00:12:24,685 customers, use the profits from that. 246 00:12:24,834 --> 00:12:26,305 I can go and find more customers. 247 00:12:26,305 --> 00:12:26,515 Right. 248 00:12:26,515 --> 00:12:29,305 So is that, it sounds like that's what you've done. 249 00:12:29,305 --> 00:12:30,374 Have I understood that right? 250 00:12:31,045 --> 00:12:32,070 Tom Kulzer: Yeah, no, absolutely. 251 00:12:32,070 --> 00:12:34,740 That's, you know, we're through and through a bootstrap company, so 252 00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:36,270 we've never raised outside funding. 253 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:40,290 Um, and, you know, we serve future customers based on the profits 254 00:12:40,290 --> 00:12:43,200 from, from past customers and the revenue that they're paying us. 255 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,920 So, you know, at the end of the day, like our costs are very different 256 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,820 than, you know, a traditional kind of you know, inventory type business. 257 00:12:50,820 --> 00:12:52,530 Like I don't have inventory sitting around. 258 00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:52,850 Mm-hmm. 259 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:56,010 But I think a lot of, you know, when you look at raising funds and so 260 00:12:56,010 --> 00:13:00,090 forth, it's, it's the, um, you know, it's the dichotomy of how you're 261 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:01,620 leveraging the business to grow. 262 00:13:01,950 --> 00:13:05,370 You know, we've certainly grown slower as a result of that. 263 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,710 Um, I think in ways that, you know, were both my own comfort zone, um, 264 00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:14,820 as well as in ways that I think change a company's kind of dna. 265 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:15,270 Mm-hmm. 266 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,170 , um, when you grow too fast, you know, if I doubled head count, you know, 267 00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:20,870 I doubled our team size this year. 268 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,660 That's gonna impact the way that our team members talk to each other and how they 269 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:29,170 relate to one another, and how company culture passes from one to the other. 270 00:13:29,170 --> 00:13:29,680 Mm-hmm.. 271 00:13:29,686 --> 00:13:34,780 Um, and I think that, that those things have to be balanced as, you 272 00:13:34,785 --> 00:13:37,600 know, as you grow a company over the years or you kind of lose who 273 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,340 you are and what makes you special. 274 00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:43,845 Um, It's just, there's lots of things to think about, but that's 275 00:13:43,845 --> 00:13:46,574 just kind of some of the stuff that I've balanced over the years. 276 00:13:46,580 --> 00:13:49,965 You know, if I, at the same time, like if I went back to the beginning, I ran 277 00:13:49,965 --> 00:13:51,824 everything myself for the first two years. 278 00:13:51,855 --> 00:13:57,275 I didn't hire anyone until we had, it was like 23 or 2,400 customers, like Oh wow. 279 00:13:57,815 --> 00:13:59,645 Over 2000 paying customers. 280 00:13:59,645 --> 00:14:02,885 I'm writing code, I'm doing marketing, I'm doing all the customer service. 281 00:14:03,095 --> 00:14:06,005 This is basically during the day I did all customer service and 282 00:14:06,005 --> 00:14:09,755 at night I did marketing, pr, you know, writing new code, et cetera. 283 00:14:10,205 --> 00:14:13,415 And it was like, it was, I look back on it and it was like, that's insane. 284 00:14:13,415 --> 00:14:14,345 Why did I do that? 285 00:14:14,585 --> 00:14:18,575 But for me it was like, okay, at what point can I get to a revenue component 286 00:14:18,575 --> 00:14:22,535 where I can feel really confident that I can support another person's livelihood? 287 00:14:22,775 --> 00:14:23,045 Yeah. 288 00:14:23,970 --> 00:14:28,320 And at the same time it was like, well, hiring somebody like that's scary. 289 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:29,160 How do I do that? 290 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,840 Like, how do I even physically do that? 291 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,420 And it's like, you know, it's really not that hard when you look back on it, 292 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,340 but as a new entrepreneur and having never done that before, it's like 293 00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:42,120 that's, you know, it's, it's a barrier and you have to get through that. 294 00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:42,720 Yeah. 295 00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:43,030 So, 296 00:14:43,935 --> 00:14:46,395 Matt Edmundson: Oh no, it sounds, I mean, I, I could wax 297 00:14:46,395 --> 00:14:47,715 lyrical with you all afternoon. 298 00:14:47,715 --> 00:14:50,085 I think about just how you, how you build the business and, 299 00:14:50,085 --> 00:14:51,345 and the learnings from that. 300 00:14:51,675 --> 00:14:52,815 I find the whole thing fascinating. 301 00:14:52,995 --> 00:14:55,305 It's why between you and me, and I don't think I've mentioned this 302 00:14:55,305 --> 00:14:59,055 before in the ecom podcast, we're launching a second podcast called Push. 303 00:14:59,205 --> 00:15:02,325 In fact, by the time this airs, Push will be out, push to be more, uh, 304 00:15:02,330 --> 00:15:05,535 where I just talk to leaders about how they've led, uh, I love it. 305 00:15:05,535 --> 00:15:07,545 It's great, they're fascinating conversations. 306 00:15:07,995 --> 00:15:08,485 Nice. 307 00:15:09,075 --> 00:15:11,115 Uh, we'll have to get you on that one as well. 308 00:15:12,599 --> 00:15:15,599 Um, let's talk about e-commerce because, you know, that's why 309 00:15:15,599 --> 00:15:16,770 people have tuned in really. 310 00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:25,410 Let's, let's, uh, so you've obviously been around email, well, you've been 311 00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:27,660 around email longer than I've been around. 312 00:15:27,709 --> 00:15:30,120 I started in e-commerce in 2002. 313 00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:33,060 So you've been in email longer than I've been in e-commerce, so, you know, 314 00:15:33,150 --> 00:15:35,099 Tom Kulzer: uh, I've sent a lot of emails. 315 00:15:35,474 --> 00:15:35,849 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 316 00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:39,630 Have you, have you actually tried to calculate how many emails you have 317 00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:41,209 been responsible for being sent? 318 00:15:41,689 --> 00:15:42,810 Tom Kulzer: Oh gosh. 319 00:15:42,825 --> 00:15:46,515 It, it's, it's not quite trillions yet, but it's hundreds 320 00:15:46,515 --> 00:15:48,755 of billions, so it's crazy. 321 00:15:48,755 --> 00:15:49,835 It's a lot of emails. 322 00:15:50,025 --> 00:15:50,915 It's crazy. 323 00:15:50,925 --> 00:15:53,985 And I, and I like to always make sure that I preface that with 324 00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:55,635 it's permission based emails. 325 00:15:55,635 --> 00:15:58,665 We don't send emails that people don't request, so you have to 326 00:15:58,665 --> 00:16:00,045 have permission to send emails. 327 00:16:00,045 --> 00:16:04,005 So we're, we're not, we try very hard to not be part of the spam problem. 328 00:16:05,655 --> 00:16:07,485 Matt Edmundson: Well, years ago, spam wasn't a problem. 329 00:16:07,515 --> 00:16:09,585 Obviously when you first started out, it wasn't. 330 00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:12,720 Tom Kulzer: Well, I would say it definitely was like, it's always 331 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,970 been a contingent of something that we've had to deal with. 332 00:16:15,150 --> 00:16:18,240 You know, there was, there were different rules, like there 333 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,250 was a lack of rules back then. 334 00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:24,330 I've always looked at spam and, you know, the unsolicited email, as you 335 00:16:24,330 --> 00:16:26,940 know, taking care of the email ecosystem. 336 00:16:27,635 --> 00:16:32,675 If we do things as a platform that trashes the viability of email as a 337 00:16:32,675 --> 00:16:36,694 marketing platform or as a communication platform, you know, it's, it's kinda 338 00:16:36,699 --> 00:16:39,844 like, you know, biting the hand that feeds you and that, that expression, 339 00:16:39,844 --> 00:16:43,984 it's like, why, you know, why would I wanna make that a useless platform? 340 00:16:44,015 --> 00:16:47,584 Because ultimately then businesses aren't going to invest in it. 341 00:16:48,035 --> 00:16:52,520 Email has really remained one of the top investments for businesses from 342 00:16:52,525 --> 00:16:56,030 a return on investment standpoint, you know, every dollar, you know, 343 00:16:56,030 --> 00:17:00,050 gets turned into $34 according to direct marketing association on mm-hmm 344 00:17:00,135 --> 00:17:01,640 on, you know, investment in email. 345 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,839 So it's, it's one of those things that done right, it can be really profitable, 346 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:10,579 can really connect with your users in ways that you just can't do across social and, 347 00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:12,230 and other platforms that are out there. 348 00:17:12,615 --> 00:17:14,984 At the same time, like you own your audience. 349 00:17:15,044 --> 00:17:18,524 You know, it's like everyone's got every other business's logo 350 00:17:18,524 --> 00:17:20,054 on their website these days. 351 00:17:20,675 --> 00:17:25,605 Subscribe to my YouTube, you know, follow me on Twitter, like me on Facebook, 352 00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:27,794 like, you know, you name, name 'em off. 353 00:17:27,794 --> 00:17:32,475 Even now it's, you know, follow my podcast on Apple and, you know, 14 different 354 00:17:32,475 --> 00:17:37,555 platforms and it's like, As a business, we don't own any of those platforms. 355 00:17:37,585 --> 00:17:40,795 If one of those platform, like if Twitter decides they don't want you publishing 356 00:17:40,795 --> 00:17:43,255 on Twitter anymore, goodbye audience. 357 00:17:43,285 --> 00:17:43,345 Yeah. 358 00:17:43,465 --> 00:17:47,665 I can't take my Twitter following and like import them into a new platform 359 00:17:47,665 --> 00:17:49,285 and continue to communicate with them. 360 00:17:49,585 --> 00:17:50,185 Whereas email. 361 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,020 You own the email address like they belong to you, you can export them 362 00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:58,230 from our platform or any other platform that you're sending those email 363 00:17:58,230 --> 00:18:02,010 from and continue to send to those subscribers from a different platform. 364 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,360 So if we for some reason, decide that whatever it is that you're doing is 365 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:10,000 not appropriate on our platform, You can continue to do that somewhere else. 366 00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:13,960 Yeah, you can't, you don't have that same leverage with Facebook, it's very 367 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,980 much this, you know, when I go back to, you know, the nineties and the early two 368 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,780 thousands, it's the same way everyone was trying to build platform around AOL 369 00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:28,240 and getting, you know, people to, to kind of follow you in that closed ecosystem. 370 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,220 That was the paywall behind aol. 371 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:33,070 That was really kind of the leading. 372 00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:38,160 You know, a leading indicator of what then turned into all of these 373 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,400 other platforms that are out there with Twitter and Facebook and YouTube 374 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,660 and so forth in that you have to play exclusively by their rules. 375 00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:47,010 And if you don't, you're gone. 376 00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:47,650 Mm-hmm. 377 00:18:47,656 --> 00:18:48,570 and it's as simple as that. 378 00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:49,710 And you have no recovery. 379 00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:52,110 Um, so it's a, it's a balance. 380 00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:57,300 And I look at email as, as something that is more transferable, more ownable, 381 00:18:57,330 --> 00:19:02,295 um, has higher, longer term economics, you know, and email subscribers worth 382 00:19:02,465 --> 00:19:07,185 far more than a Twitter follower, a, you know, Facebook follower, et cetera. 383 00:19:07,875 --> 00:19:10,695 Matt Edmundson: So I, I totally agree and it's what I mean, I like what you 384 00:19:10,695 --> 00:19:15,284 said there, how, um, I mean, I, I was joking or jesting in some respects, 385 00:19:15,290 --> 00:19:17,834 saying email, you've been doing email longer than I've been doing e-commerce. 386 00:19:17,834 --> 00:19:21,044 And it show I wasn't doing Twitter, I wasn't doing Facebook. 387 00:19:21,044 --> 00:19:23,685 I wasn't doing, they didn't even exist when I was, when I 388 00:19:23,685 --> 00:19:25,155 first started out in business. 389 00:19:25,215 --> 00:19:30,524 But email did, and email is still by far the biggest return on our investment 390 00:19:30,524 --> 00:19:31,754 from a marketing point of view. 391 00:19:31,754 --> 00:19:35,370 And it's like, I, people ask me all the time, what do you think about 392 00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:38,970 dot dot dot and this technique or this fancy idea over here? 393 00:19:38,970 --> 00:19:41,670 And you go, well, listen, have you got the basics done right? 394 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:42,900 What are the basics? 395 00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:45,660 Well, let's talk about your website and let's talk about your email marketing. 396 00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:45,810 Right? 397 00:19:45,810 --> 00:19:49,980 They've been around since the start of e-commerce and they're still here. 398 00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:54,420 Um, but obviously email is, has changed. 399 00:19:54,420 --> 00:19:55,140 It's adapted. 400 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:57,030 It's evolved over time. 401 00:19:57,030 --> 00:19:59,730 I mean, what are some of the things that you've noticed sort of change 402 00:19:59,730 --> 00:20:01,350 in the email marketing world? 403 00:20:02,685 --> 00:20:06,885 Tom Kulzer: Yeah, there's, there's a lot of, you know, overall changes. 404 00:20:06,885 --> 00:20:09,705 You know, when I first started, you know, messages where it was 405 00:20:09,705 --> 00:20:11,555 just a subject line and plain text. 406 00:20:11,555 --> 00:20:15,735 Mm-hmm, and now you've got obviously HTML email where you can make, you know, an 407 00:20:15,735 --> 00:20:20,655 email, have images and you know, it can look like, you know, a lot of businesses 408 00:20:20,655 --> 00:20:22,605 send these brochure type emails. 409 00:20:23,115 --> 00:20:27,225 I don't generally recommend most businesses send this, uh mm-hmm. 410 00:20:27,305 --> 00:20:33,045 you know, use email as more of a personal communication platform than, um, you 411 00:20:33,045 --> 00:20:35,145 know, than just sending out brochureware. 412 00:20:35,175 --> 00:20:37,105 You know, it's, it's what would you wanna get from businesses? 413 00:20:38,325 --> 00:20:43,986 Um, you know, there's lots of up upcoming things that, you know, a lot of 414 00:20:44,425 --> 00:20:45,825 businesses haven't even heard about yet. 415 00:20:45,825 --> 00:20:49,345 There's something called AMP for email, um, that normally 416 00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:50,685 when you send out an html. 417 00:20:51,735 --> 00:20:55,335 You know, the content that I write and then hit send on is the content that 418 00:20:55,335 --> 00:20:57,735 you as a subscriber receive and see. 419 00:20:58,155 --> 00:21:01,755 And no matter how long after you go back and read that same email, it 420 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,405 will look the same in your inbox. 421 00:21:03,495 --> 00:21:03,585 Mm-hmm. 422 00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:07,365 Amp for email is actually a, um, you've probably heard for about 423 00:21:07,365 --> 00:21:12,270 amp uh, when it comes to website load times and Google and so forth. 424 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:15,420 It's a protocol that, that Google originally developed. 425 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,470 Um, but what it essentially allows you to do is as a sender, I can 426 00:21:19,470 --> 00:21:21,360 make parts of my email dynamic. 427 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:28,379 So think, um, you subscribe to a stock newsletter and you get in, in, you 428 00:21:28,379 --> 00:21:31,650 know, they list off different stocks and when they send that, you know, 429 00:21:31,655 --> 00:21:34,560 Google's trading in, I don't even know what it's trading at right now, let's 430 00:21:34,565 --> 00:21:35,970 call it a thousand dollars a share. 431 00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:42,645 Um, and, uh, you know, tomorrow when you read it, Their shares might be a 432 00:21:43,055 --> 00:21:45,315 thousand dollars, you know, $1,020. 433 00:21:45,465 --> 00:21:45,675 Mm-hmm. 434 00:21:46,035 --> 00:21:50,565 , um, and, and for email would allow it to pull in the real time, uh, 435 00:21:50,625 --> 00:21:52,425 stock, you know, quote for that. 436 00:21:52,455 --> 00:21:56,265 So in the e-commerce world, think of, you know, you send out a 437 00:21:56,265 --> 00:22:01,375 promotion for a particular widget and you sell out of that widget. 438 00:22:01,755 --> 00:22:04,544 Well, now you've got all the, you've got these emails that you sent 439 00:22:04,544 --> 00:22:06,945 to, let's call, 5,000 subscribers. 440 00:22:07,274 --> 00:22:11,355 You know, a thousand of them saw and you know, went and bought your 441 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,284 widget, but then 4,000 haven't opened yet, but you sold out of that widget. 442 00:22:15,765 --> 00:22:20,025 With amp for email, what I could do is I could actually replace that widget A in 443 00:22:20,025 --> 00:22:25,005 the email with a widget B, so the other 4,000 that hadn't opened it yet, still 444 00:22:25,005 --> 00:22:28,935 have the opportunity to see something of value that they could potentially purchase 445 00:22:28,935 --> 00:22:32,535 versus a like, you know, clicking on the link and then going, oh, it's sold out. 446 00:22:33,045 --> 00:22:34,355 Um, so it's, that's amazing. 447 00:22:34,355 --> 00:22:34,595 It's. 448 00:22:35,534 --> 00:22:36,975 There's some really cool stuff. 449 00:22:36,975 --> 00:22:38,205 There's, uh, you know, 450 00:22:38,205 --> 00:22:39,764 Matt Edmundson: Is that out now, um, amp for email? 451 00:22:40,044 --> 00:22:40,725 Tom Kulzer: Yeah, absolutely. 452 00:22:40,784 --> 00:22:42,705 It's supported on a number of platforms. 453 00:22:42,705 --> 00:22:46,844 Google, obviously, and for most e-commerce businesses, that's, you 454 00:22:46,844 --> 00:22:52,695 know, a good 40 to 60%, sometimes 70% of, of a lot of subscribers 455 00:22:52,695 --> 00:22:54,584 lists, a lot of businesses list. 456 00:22:55,004 --> 00:22:58,425 Um, and there's other platforms that are, that are building in support for. 457 00:22:58,425 --> 00:22:59,834 Yahoo, has support for it. 458 00:22:59,925 --> 00:23:03,495 Um, and as well as others are, are in the process of adding. 459 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,230 Um, but that's a, a really cool technology. 460 00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:12,900 You know, we're gonna see buying things in the actual email very soon, uh, instead 461 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:18,030 of having to go off to another website, uh, to, to do the actual checkout process. 462 00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:22,320 And because it's all validated, because I know I sent it to you as a subscriber. 463 00:23:22,979 --> 00:23:27,360 If you already have payment details on file, you could potentially even, you 464 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:31,320 know, accept an order without having to make the user enter a credit card 465 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,469 number because you've already got it on file and it's authenticated that you 466 00:23:34,475 --> 00:23:36,389 sent it to that particular recipient. 467 00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:40,110 So there's some really, really cool things that you can do that is, 468 00:23:40,199 --> 00:23:43,649 we've implemented it in a lot of our own newsletters as like surveys. 469 00:23:43,919 --> 00:23:47,429 So like when you fill out the survey, you, you actually click the buttons in 470 00:23:47,429 --> 00:23:51,879 the email and when you hit submit, You're still in the email and it shows you the 471 00:23:51,879 --> 00:23:57,010 results of, you know, whatever survey that we sent out, um, you know, and, and 472 00:23:57,250 --> 00:23:59,590 whoever's responded to it, uh, so far. 473 00:23:59,590 --> 00:24:04,560 So it, it turns email from what was this static thing? 474 00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:04,920 Yeah. 475 00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:09,180 Into a more dynamic, um, and interactive process. 476 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:14,700 And that's really what is key with email and getting, you know, good results with 477 00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:16,920 email is, it all comes back to engagement. 478 00:24:17,370 --> 00:24:21,300 Uh, and when I think of, you know, when I say engagement, that means, you know, 479 00:24:21,450 --> 00:24:25,050 whether or not somebody opens an email, whether or not somebody clicks on links 480 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,970 and goes to your website in the email. 481 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:30,090 Um, but so those are the two like. 482 00:24:31,215 --> 00:24:32,205 An email marketer. 483 00:24:32,205 --> 00:24:35,774 Those are the two metrics that businesses often look at as engagement. 484 00:24:35,955 --> 00:24:40,094 But there's a lot of other things if you think past that, that you know, Google 485 00:24:40,094 --> 00:24:44,264 and Microsoft and Yahoo are looking at that kind of count as engagement. 486 00:24:44,594 --> 00:24:48,074 So think, um, you know, do you forward that email to somebody else? 487 00:24:48,435 --> 00:24:50,025 Do you reply to that email? 488 00:24:50,535 --> 00:24:55,665 Um, do you, uh, you know, when you open it, do you scroll down? 489 00:24:55,754 --> 00:24:57,675 Is the message bigger than my window? 490 00:24:57,675 --> 00:24:58,695 Do I scroll down? 491 00:24:58,754 --> 00:25:01,365 You know, when you're reading on Gmail, let me tell you, 492 00:25:01,395 --> 00:25:02,895 Google sees all those things. 493 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:07,004 They keep track of all of those things and that feeds into, um, the. 494 00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:11,140 Uh, their algorithms as far as what emails they're gonna show you in the 495 00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:15,460 future, but it's also setting that kind of engagement reputation for whether 496 00:25:15,460 --> 00:25:19,000 or not your messages continue to show up in the inboxes of all the other 497 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,860 people that they sent, that you sent to. 498 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,820 Um, Do you then save that email to a different folder or label it in Gmail 499 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:28,800 or Yahoo or wherever it happens to be? 500 00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:34,710 So there's all these different kind of cues that mailbox providers get from 501 00:25:34,715 --> 00:25:36,900 every interaction with your messages. 502 00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:37,770 Do they delete it? 503 00:25:37,770 --> 00:25:38,830 Do they mark it as spam? 504 00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:39,060 Yeah. 505 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:39,750 Et cetera. 506 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,170 So there's a lot of things that businesses do. 507 00:25:43,665 --> 00:25:49,365 That are, you know, when you, when you put that engagement hat on that are 508 00:25:49,895 --> 00:25:53,205 actually hurting that ability to interact. 509 00:25:53,655 --> 00:25:57,915 So, you know, how many businesses, particularly in the e-commerce space, 510 00:25:58,185 --> 00:26:01,035 have addresses that they send out to, that are kind of the, the what 511 00:26:01,035 --> 00:26:02,865 we call 'em as no reply emails. 512 00:26:03,645 --> 00:26:07,805 And, and I always call those, you know, the, the middle finger email address. 513 00:26:10,365 --> 00:26:12,135 Matt Edmundson: You've got this email, don't ever come back to me. 514 00:26:12,135 --> 00:26:12,685 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 515 00:26:13,065 --> 00:26:13,395 Tom Kulzer: Exactly. 516 00:26:13,395 --> 00:26:16,245 It's like, gimme your money and, and go yourself. 517 00:26:16,275 --> 00:26:16,815 Yeah. 518 00:26:16,815 --> 00:26:16,816 Yeah. 519 00:26:17,355 --> 00:26:22,764 It's like, you know, that's, that's not how I, as you know, when I get messages in 520 00:26:22,764 --> 00:26:26,125 my inbox and it's like I have a question about something, it's like, oh crap. 521 00:26:26,185 --> 00:26:27,745 Like how do I get this question answered? 522 00:26:27,745 --> 00:26:28,975 I gotta go to their website. 523 00:26:28,975 --> 00:26:30,655 I gotta figure out how to contact 'em. 524 00:26:30,865 --> 00:26:33,385 Like, just let me reply to the darn email you just sent me. 525 00:26:33,385 --> 00:26:34,284 You're in my inbox. 526 00:26:34,495 --> 00:26:38,155 It's literally two way communication platform, and you're just giving me 527 00:26:38,155 --> 00:26:39,625 the finger and telling me to go away. 528 00:26:39,865 --> 00:26:39,955 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 529 00:26:39,955 --> 00:26:45,485 Its, it's the craziest thing I, I've never understood Tom why people have done that. 530 00:26:45,695 --> 00:26:47,995 Tom Kulzer: And it's so, so common. 531 00:26:48,054 --> 00:26:51,534 So it's, it's the give, give me your money and go away kind of cue. 532 00:26:51,685 --> 00:26:51,745 Yeah. 533 00:26:51,745 --> 00:26:55,764 And it's not, it's not a good way to build engagement with your audience. 534 00:26:56,004 --> 00:26:59,245 You know, it's one of the, it's one of the most simple tricks that a lot of 535 00:26:59,245 --> 00:27:02,334 really good publishers, particularly at the, like, you know, smaller 536 00:27:02,340 --> 00:27:05,435 level is when somebody subscribes to their newsletter, particularly in the 537 00:27:05,435 --> 00:27:08,695 like kind of creator economy folks with, you know, writing based on, 538 00:27:08,885 --> 00:27:11,094 on what their audience's needs are. 539 00:27:12,045 --> 00:27:14,264 Hey, what's your, what's your biggest struggle right now? 540 00:27:14,264 --> 00:27:16,095 Just hit reply and, and let me know. 541 00:27:16,395 --> 00:27:19,785 And while, yes, that's gonna generate email volume to you, 542 00:27:19,905 --> 00:27:25,065 it's also a great stream of ideas for content for you to write. 543 00:27:25,185 --> 00:27:29,745 It's as an eCommerce vendor, it's potentially great ideas for products 544 00:27:29,745 --> 00:27:34,455 that you could bring, that you might not have or, um, it's also great for. 545 00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:39,750 Uh, increase, you know, improving your content on your website by using the 546 00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:43,710 terminology that your own customers are using to describe their problems. 547 00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:44,160 Yeah. 548 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,310 So there's a lot of things that you can do with that, and at the same time you're 549 00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:48,780 signaling to Google and others Yeah. 550 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:49,030 That like. 551 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:51,600 Hey, they want my email and they're engaging with what I'm 552 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,130 sending, which is really valuable. 553 00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:57,390 Matt Edmundson: So if, um, I dunno if this, I'm going too into the detail now. 554 00:27:57,650 --> 00:28:01,590 I, you've got me thinking maybe I need to set up an email address which says, yes, 555 00:28:01,590 --> 00:28:05,160 you can reply to this@whatever.com, uh. 556 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,820 But you get the replies from your customers. 557 00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:11,370 You send, you know, emails out and they, you encourage 'em to 558 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:13,830 hit reply for all the reasons you mentioned, which are all valid. 559 00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:20,790 Does that mean, then that Google's going 60, 70% of email going through Google. 560 00:28:20,790 --> 00:28:24,000 You saying Google are looking at that going, this guy's got a little 561 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,280 bit of engagement, people are responding, people are replying. 562 00:28:26,550 --> 00:28:29,760 Therefore, does the deliverability of my emails increase? 563 00:28:29,765 --> 00:28:30,300 Tom Kulzer: Absolutely. 564 00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:31,410 Yeah, absolutely. 565 00:28:31,410 --> 00:28:34,530 You know, when you think about like, so deliverability means a couple 566 00:28:34,530 --> 00:28:38,010 of different things and it's often, uh, misquoted in the marketplace. 567 00:28:38,030 --> 00:28:41,390 So like, you know, when you think about a social platform, you know, 568 00:28:41,390 --> 00:28:44,750 if I have a thousand people following me on Twitter and I post something 569 00:28:44,750 --> 00:28:49,070 on Twitter, maybe 10% of those people are gonna actually see that and it'll 570 00:28:49,075 --> 00:28:50,510 actually show up in their stream. 571 00:28:50,780 --> 00:28:54,590 You know, when I send an email, if I sent that email to a thousand people, if I 572 00:28:54,590 --> 00:28:56,630 only delivered it to a hundred people. 573 00:28:56,810 --> 00:28:59,210 We'd have a lot of really ticked off customers. 574 00:29:00,919 --> 00:29:04,250 So like deliverability there, there's a component of delivering it to 575 00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:08,570 the platform, and those numbers are usually in the 98, 99 percentile. 576 00:29:08,575 --> 00:29:09,649 As far as you know. 577 00:29:09,649 --> 00:29:11,600 Those are all the addresses that are valid. 578 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,080 And we've removed any of the addresses that aren't valid, meaning, you know, the 579 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,090 address unknown and those sort of things. 580 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,149 Um, so the deliver, so that's one component that's 581 00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:21,470 often called deliverability. 582 00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:26,460 Most businesses, you know, when you're thinking about it as a Sender are thinking 583 00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:32,340 deliverability as to what percentage of my mail goes from me to somebody's inbox. 584 00:29:32,340 --> 00:29:32,580 Mm-hmm. 585 00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:36,900 Um, and that is the whether or not your messages go to the inbox 586 00:29:36,905 --> 00:29:38,700 is based on your engagement. 587 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,720 And the more you can have an audience that is highly engaged, meaning 588 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,670 they're open clicking, replying. 589 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,090 Filing 'em away and saving 'em for later, the more likely your messages are 590 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,340 gonna go continue to go to the inbox. 591 00:29:51,580 --> 00:29:54,720 You know, one thing that we often get, particularly from e-commerce merchants 592 00:29:54,725 --> 00:29:57,010 is my emails go to the promotions folder. 593 00:29:57,070 --> 00:29:57,560 Yeah. 594 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,130 And they think in their head like, oh no, it's the spam folder. 595 00:30:00,310 --> 00:30:03,550 Promotions folder is definitely not the spam folder. 596 00:30:03,550 --> 00:30:05,140 They're two very different beasts. 597 00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:05,230 Mm-hmm. 598 00:30:05,530 --> 00:30:08,650 and a lot of our e-commerce platform centers that, that 599 00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:10,000 go to the promotions folder. 600 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,629 Um, They get better results because they're there versus being in the inbox. 601 00:30:15,629 --> 00:30:18,300 Because when people go to the, when they look at their promotions folder, 602 00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:22,080 they're in a buying mood versus in the inbox it's like, well, I want, 603 00:30:22,110 --> 00:30:24,929 I wanna read my email from Matt that where Matt and I were talking 604 00:30:24,935 --> 00:30:26,340 about what we just did this weekend. 605 00:30:26,639 --> 00:30:26,850 Yeah. 606 00:30:26,850 --> 00:30:28,469 You know, it's a different kind of thing. 607 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:31,919 And at the same time, as an e-commerce center, you know, we often get the 608 00:30:31,919 --> 00:30:34,649 question like, well, why is my email going to the promotions folder? 609 00:30:34,649 --> 00:30:37,425 And it's like, well, You're sending promotions. 610 00:30:37,515 --> 00:30:41,685 So, that's Google's kinda good at what they do. 611 00:30:42,135 --> 00:30:43,785 So, uh, yeah, that's where it goes. 612 00:30:44,175 --> 00:30:48,435 Um, you know, and if the content that you send is always promotions, 613 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,385 it's always buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. 614 00:30:50,385 --> 00:30:53,445 You know, here's my latest listings, here's my coupons for my grocery 615 00:30:53,445 --> 00:30:54,885 store, whatever it happens to be. 616 00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:57,165 You know, you're gonna go to the promotions folder. 617 00:30:57,615 --> 00:31:01,725 Um, you know, one of the newsletters that, that, uh, that I subscribe to, that, 618 00:31:01,995 --> 00:31:04,015 you know, you could think about as a. 619 00:31:05,295 --> 00:31:09,405 You know, as an e-commerce sender, I, I, it's called, uh, the Lift E Foil. 620 00:31:09,705 --> 00:31:12,585 It's a company out Puerto Rico, and they make these cool, like, 621 00:31:12,645 --> 00:31:15,645 um, it's like a surfboard with an electric motor on the bottom and it 622 00:31:15,645 --> 00:31:17,235 kind of like flies out the water. 623 00:31:17,415 --> 00:31:20,805 And I bought one a few years ago and I'm on their newsletter as a customer 624 00:31:20,955 --> 00:31:22,965 and they send me product updates. 625 00:31:23,205 --> 00:31:27,255 But the reason that I engage with those product updates is because they also link 626 00:31:27,255 --> 00:31:31,845 off to YouTube videos and Instagram videos and those sort of things in their emails. 627 00:31:32,325 --> 00:31:37,125 That are about other customers riding the Lift E foil in different parts 628 00:31:37,125 --> 00:31:41,175 of the world that are really cool and beautiful, or people doing cool tricks 629 00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:42,765 on them that I haven't figured out. 630 00:31:43,755 --> 00:31:48,825 Um, so it's like it keeps me engaged as a customer and, oh, hey, by the 631 00:31:48,825 --> 00:31:52,185 way, they've also got, you know, some new foils or a new motor or 632 00:31:52,185 --> 00:31:53,265 something that I can put on it. 633 00:31:53,415 --> 00:31:56,745 And I've bought a few of those because it's, it's topical to me. 634 00:31:56,745 --> 00:31:57,885 But where does their email go? 635 00:31:58,005 --> 00:32:04,150 It comes to my inbox because it's mostly content that is non-promotional, and 636 00:32:04,150 --> 00:32:06,310 it's also content that I engage with. 637 00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:07,570 I click those links. 638 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:11,260 I, you know, it's like, like at this point it's like, oh, where are they now? 639 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,220 Like, that's really cool. 640 00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:12,520 Yeah. 641 00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:15,730 Or, you know, what, what trick am I gonna learn this week that I can't do? 642 00:32:15,735 --> 00:32:18,790 And I'm gonna spend all summer bashing my head trying to figure out how to do it. 643 00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:22,979 Matt Edmundson: Um, so it's not a case then of, um, Because there's 644 00:32:22,979 --> 00:32:26,310 a belief isn't there, that sort of floats around, which says if I send 645 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:31,050 plain text emails, I'll go into their inbox, uh, and if I send HTML, 646 00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:32,909 I'm going into the promotions tab. 647 00:32:32,915 --> 00:32:34,080 That's not, that's not right. 648 00:32:34,270 --> 00:32:35,760 Tom Kulzer: No, no, no. 649 00:32:35,850 --> 00:32:38,909 If you sell things in your plain text message, you're gonna end up 650 00:32:38,915 --> 00:32:40,229 going in the promotions folder. 651 00:32:40,235 --> 00:32:43,590 Matt Edmundson: So, um, you know, it's, say Google know what they're doing. 652 00:32:43,649 --> 00:32:45,000 They've, they've seen every trick. 653 00:32:45,855 --> 00:32:46,905 Tom Kulzer: Absolutely. 654 00:32:46,905 --> 00:32:51,285 So, and you've gotta, you've gotta understand they're also seeing all of the 655 00:32:51,285 --> 00:32:53,325 content that you are sending in total. 656 00:32:53,325 --> 00:32:57,465 So, you know, you'll get, you know, sometimes you'll get businesses that 657 00:32:57,465 --> 00:33:00,555 are like, oh, you know, I went to this trade show and, and I got a 658 00:33:00,555 --> 00:33:04,395 thousand names of people that hopped it in to receive emails from all the 659 00:33:04,395 --> 00:33:06,105 vendors that were at the trade show. 660 00:33:06,465 --> 00:33:06,975 And its like. 661 00:33:07,735 --> 00:33:08,095 Okay. 662 00:33:08,095 --> 00:33:09,355 You were at the trade show. 663 00:33:09,475 --> 00:33:11,815 There were about 50 different vendors there. 664 00:33:11,875 --> 00:33:14,755 Do you want 50 different vendors sending you emails as a result 665 00:33:14,755 --> 00:33:16,195 of having gone to the trade show? 666 00:33:16,345 --> 00:33:16,435 Mm-hmm? 667 00:33:17,725 --> 00:33:18,265 No. 668 00:33:19,465 --> 00:33:20,335 I know I don't. 669 00:33:20,545 --> 00:33:20,635 Mm-hmm.. 670 00:33:20,965 --> 00:33:24,445 But these businesses look at it as a shortcut to like gain subscribers. 671 00:33:25,275 --> 00:33:26,205 But think about this. 672 00:33:26,205 --> 00:33:28,065 So put your Google hat on, okay? 673 00:33:28,065 --> 00:33:31,875 That that particular business might have been, let's call it, they were 674 00:33:31,875 --> 00:33:36,645 sending to 5,000 people before and on Monday they come back from their 675 00:33:36,645 --> 00:33:39,945 conference and they have a thousand names and they import them, and they're 676 00:33:39,945 --> 00:33:42,315 now sending 6,000 people an email. 677 00:33:43,065 --> 00:33:45,705 Most businesses don't grow organically. 678 00:33:46,045 --> 00:33:50,395 By whatever percent that is, you know, 20% overnight. 679 00:33:51,085 --> 00:33:53,725 Like they don't instantly get another thousand subscribers. 680 00:33:53,725 --> 00:33:56,965 Google knows, you know, they may only see a percentage of that. 681 00:33:56,965 --> 00:34:01,315 So let's say they were seeing 2,500 subscribers that you were sending before, 682 00:34:01,315 --> 00:34:05,330 and now with this new imported list, you magically got another 500 names. 683 00:34:05,540 --> 00:34:05,810 Yeah. 684 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,710 They know that those names have never gotten emails from you before, and 685 00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:14,179 they're judging where to send those emails from an inbox perspective based on what 686 00:34:14,179 --> 00:34:19,100 the, you know, 2000 or 2,500 were that, that were already seeing those emails. 687 00:34:19,340 --> 00:34:22,730 So if those users were engaging with those messages, those new people 688 00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:26,060 might be likely to see them, or they might send them to spam just because 689 00:34:26,060 --> 00:34:28,250 it's like, that doesn't look organic. 690 00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:33,360 When we look at most businesses growth, it just kind of, it's a nice steady 691 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,820 uptick of, of subscribers over time. 692 00:34:35,850 --> 00:34:41,130 They don't, they don't jump up in, in big, you know, big jumps that's not 693 00:34:41,130 --> 00:34:45,389 organic, and that is more than likely them doing something that is not permission 694 00:34:45,389 --> 00:34:47,070 based and is gonna cause problems. 695 00:34:47,550 --> 00:34:52,440 So it's, you know, so there's, there's a balance in, in, you know, making sure that 696 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:58,935 as an email center and as a business, You put your customer hat on and think of what 697 00:34:58,935 --> 00:35:01,415 would you like to receive in your inbox. 698 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,450 Your emails are not special. 699 00:35:03,450 --> 00:35:07,950 The entire planet does not want what you send just because it comes from you. 700 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,640 I, I hate to, you know, that applies to my emails, that applies 701 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,970 to your emails, that applies to all of our listeners emails here. 702 00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:16,680 They're not special. 703 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,040 We need to earn our way into people's inboxes and earn our 704 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,480 ability to stay in their inboxes. 705 00:35:22,944 --> 00:35:23,335 Yeah, 706 00:35:23,335 --> 00:35:26,245 Matt Edmundson: that's such a important, we should maybe change the title of the 707 00:35:26,245 --> 00:35:28,315 podcast to Your emails are not special. 708 00:35:28,375 --> 00:35:30,234 Uh, I think that's such a valid point. 709 00:35:30,774 --> 00:35:34,345 So what would be some of the, the tips, Tom, that you would 710 00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:35,754 give to an e-commerce business? 711 00:35:35,759 --> 00:35:37,285 You know, I'm, I'm, I'm an e-commerce guy. 712 00:35:37,285 --> 00:35:40,435 I'm sat here, I'm listening to you, uh, and I'm thinking this is all great. 713 00:35:40,435 --> 00:35:42,774 And, um, I, I get some of the stuff you were saying. 714 00:35:43,045 --> 00:35:45,685 How does that help me when I come to sit down and, and 715 00:35:45,685 --> 00:35:48,015 stop planning m email content? 716 00:35:48,015 --> 00:35:49,815 What are some of the things that I should be thinking about? 717 00:35:49,875 --> 00:35:52,725 Tom Kulzer: Yeah, I think in the e-commerce space, I think a lot 718 00:35:52,725 --> 00:35:56,835 of people think about prospecting and like, buy buy buy, buy now. 719 00:35:57,525 --> 00:36:02,175 And most people, most e-commerce vendors get most of their 720 00:36:02,175 --> 00:36:03,945 subscribers from new customers. 721 00:36:04,305 --> 00:36:09,350 It's very rare from what I generally see that somebody comes to an e-commerce 722 00:36:09,350 --> 00:36:11,690 website and opts into your email list. 723 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:12,080 Mm-hmm. 724 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,620 . So, you know, usually those opt-ins are coming from your customers and 725 00:36:15,830 --> 00:36:17,350 you're actually emailing customers. 726 00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:22,190 So, you know, going back to like that, lift the, the E foil, you know, 727 00:36:22,460 --> 00:36:26,990 how can I educate people with the emails that I send about the product 728 00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:28,610 that they just purchased from me? 729 00:36:29,060 --> 00:36:32,120 Make them better consumers and more educated consumers of the 730 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,530 product that they just bought. 731 00:36:34,755 --> 00:36:38,805 Make them smart, you know, is, is what I, you know, when you, when you make me 732 00:36:38,805 --> 00:36:41,985 feel like an expert at doing whatever it is that I'm doing, I'm gonna come back 733 00:36:41,985 --> 00:36:43,785 to you because you make me look smart. 734 00:36:43,815 --> 00:36:46,245 That, that's a feel, that's a feel good emotion. 735 00:36:46,635 --> 00:36:46,755 Yeah. 736 00:36:46,755 --> 00:36:49,935 And I'm more likely to go back to you again about, you 737 00:36:49,935 --> 00:36:51,135 know, buying your products. 738 00:36:51,195 --> 00:36:56,685 You know, if you sell me some fancy hair product and you teach me how to use it 739 00:36:56,685 --> 00:37:00,835 more effectively than me going to the grocery store and buying something, I'm 740 00:37:00,835 --> 00:37:03,985 more likely to continue to come back to you because you're gonna continue 741 00:37:03,985 --> 00:37:06,355 to make my life better as a result. 742 00:37:06,745 --> 00:37:09,955 And that's where, you know, during that educational process, 743 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,245 is where you cross sell. 744 00:37:11,635 --> 00:37:14,365 You know, Hey, you bought the shampoo, but you didn't get the conditioner. 745 00:37:14,665 --> 00:37:18,205 You know, like, you know, what other things can you do if you're a golf store? 746 00:37:18,205 --> 00:37:19,825 Like, okay, you bought new clubs. 747 00:37:19,825 --> 00:37:21,805 Well, did you get a bag for your new clubs? 748 00:37:21,805 --> 00:37:25,125 Or are you ragging around your new clubs in your old ratty bag. 749 00:37:25,515 --> 00:37:29,175 You know, like, how can you cross sell appropriate things to people 750 00:37:29,535 --> 00:37:33,405 and with, you know, with, with, uh, tools like, you know, we have, uh, 751 00:37:33,435 --> 00:37:38,505 conditional content so I can, I can save what it is that you bought and 752 00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:43,395 put content in, in each email that I send out that is specific to each user. 753 00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:48,150 So, you know, It's a little more work to do it if you have, yeah, 754 00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:49,650 hundreds or thousands of SKUs. 755 00:37:49,650 --> 00:37:54,060 But if you have a limited number of SKUs, it's easier to personalize the 756 00:37:54,065 --> 00:37:58,170 content that you're sending out to people and make it very, very personal 757 00:37:58,170 --> 00:38:00,150 and very relevant to each subscriber. 758 00:38:00,150 --> 00:38:04,080 Whereas you might have kind of wrap a text around it that's more generic, 759 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,800 but then you have something that's specific to each individual user 760 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,300 that's gonna get that engagement. 761 00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:12,670 And even though you're sending a customer newsletter to a thousand 762 00:38:12,675 --> 00:38:17,105 people, There might be, you know, 15 different iterations that actually only 763 00:38:17,105 --> 00:38:20,674 took an extra 10 or 15 minutes to put together because it's not hard to do. 764 00:38:20,674 --> 00:38:22,055 It's all in one email. 765 00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:25,745 As a sender, you send one email and the, you know, the backend at 766 00:38:25,805 --> 00:38:28,774 AWeber or whatever platform you're using is, is doing the magic part. 767 00:38:28,774 --> 00:38:30,365 Matt Edmundson: It's Figuring it all out. 768 00:38:31,085 --> 00:38:31,865 That's really interesting. 769 00:38:31,870 --> 00:38:36,095 That's sort of skiing back up to some of the things that you mentioned earlier. 770 00:38:36,395 --> 00:38:41,330 Um, you talked about, you know, You'll be buying things soon, 771 00:38:41,770 --> 00:38:43,730 directly on your email hopefully. 772 00:38:43,730 --> 00:38:45,049 How far away are we from that? 773 00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:47,220 Tom Kulzer: Depending. 774 00:38:47,580 --> 00:38:52,260 So, um, I, it is technically possible now. 775 00:38:52,590 --> 00:38:59,280 Um, the tools I'd say on the, like, you know, business kind of consumer end of 776 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,290 things aren't at, aren't quite there yet. 777 00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:04,140 Like we don't have something built into our platform to do that yet. 778 00:39:04,145 --> 00:39:04,350 Mm-hmm.. 779 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,090 Um, but I see it coming very shortly, so I'd say in the next like 12 months, you 780 00:39:09,090 --> 00:39:13,115 should be able to do that on, on the like, You know, easy sign out for a service. 781 00:39:13,115 --> 00:39:15,035 Hey, I can send out an email and yeah. 782 00:39:15,035 --> 00:39:18,214 You know, all, all the transaction stuff just kind of magically works. 783 00:39:18,694 --> 00:39:21,875 Um, so the, the tech is there, it just needs a few more 784 00:39:21,875 --> 00:39:23,165 kind of integration points. 785 00:39:23,825 --> 00:39:27,214 Matt Edmundson: Um, why, why do you think, um, as curious to, to understand 786 00:39:27,220 --> 00:39:30,575 this, you know, you, you've got, uh, in the world of eCommerce, you've got a 787 00:39:30,575 --> 00:39:34,234 lot of changes that have happened from a technological point of view, right? 788 00:39:34,535 --> 00:39:37,924 Where I think about what eCommerce sites were like back in 2002 to 789 00:39:37,930 --> 00:39:40,475 what they are now and they're poles apart, and they're very. 790 00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:45,220 Um, but email, like you say, seems to have been quite static. 791 00:39:45,220 --> 00:39:47,560 You know, we went from plain text emails to, oh, I can put 792 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:48,670 my logo in a picture of me. 793 00:39:48,670 --> 00:39:49,990 Oh, I can add a picture of a product. 794 00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:56,530 But really has there been sort of any key innovation? 795 00:39:56,535 --> 00:39:58,570 I like what you've been talking about with Amp, where you can 796 00:39:58,570 --> 00:39:59,830 make it a bit more dynamic. 797 00:39:59,830 --> 00:40:01,340 I like what you're talking about with the shopping cart. 798 00:40:02,220 --> 00:40:03,750 That all seems quite recent. 799 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:04,620 Do you know what I mean? 800 00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:07,140 It seems like it's been, it's been static for a while. 801 00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:08,040 Do you know why that is? 802 00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:14,310 Tom Kulzer: Um, it's, it, I, I would say to a great extent, a lot of that is the, 803 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:21,180 um, uh, the, the dispersed nature of email in that like, no one platform owns email. 804 00:40:21,610 --> 00:40:22,210 Mm-hmm. 805 00:40:22,295 --> 00:40:25,290 um, you know, there isn't a central, you know, Google's probably 806 00:40:25,295 --> 00:40:27,150 the closest to to it in that. 807 00:40:27,855 --> 00:40:31,755 A lot of people have email boxes at, at Google, so kind of what they 808 00:40:31,755 --> 00:40:33,615 do becomes kind of the standard. 809 00:40:34,095 --> 00:40:37,955 Um, there's a lot of things that have happened behind the scenes and platforms 810 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,634 like AWeber try to remove that from something that, um, you know, our, 811 00:40:42,904 --> 00:40:44,655 our customers need to think about. 812 00:40:44,655 --> 00:40:47,985 So like authentication is a big, uh, thing that we do. 813 00:40:49,055 --> 00:40:54,305 You know, we push folks to make sure that they're doing what's called dkim keys. 814 00:40:54,305 --> 00:41:02,520 It's D K I M, and that's basically just a way that, uh, It best way to 815 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,900 describe it is it is it's a way for you to make an entry on your website or on 816 00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:12,060 your domain that tells a provider like Google that yes, these are authorized 817 00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:13,650 emails coming from my platform. 818 00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:17,009 So it allows it, you know, it prevents people from pretending to 819 00:41:17,009 --> 00:41:18,540 be you, from spoofing to be you. 820 00:41:19,049 --> 00:41:23,340 Um, which again helps your email reputation as as a sender. 821 00:41:23,370 --> 00:41:28,235 So we encourage all of our users to sign their emails with dkim and we 822 00:41:28,235 --> 00:41:31,025 try to make that really easy and kind of walk them through how to do that. 823 00:41:31,055 --> 00:41:34,415 Only takes like 10 minutes to do, but it's a good step to do. 824 00:41:34,895 --> 00:41:38,675 Um, there are other tools that kind of layer on top of that. 825 00:41:38,675 --> 00:41:39,925 There's something called bimi. 826 00:41:40,345 --> 00:41:42,375 B I M I mm-hmm.. 827 00:41:42,605 --> 00:41:49,939 And that is, um, Oh, Josh, I should know what, uh, uh, it's like brand indicators. 828 00:41:50,859 --> 00:41:52,330 I'm blanking on it at the moment. 829 00:41:52,330 --> 00:41:52,899 It's Monday. 830 00:41:52,959 --> 00:41:53,529 Give me a pass. 831 00:41:54,259 --> 00:41:58,060 Um, but basically what bimi for, for everybody that's listening, it basically 832 00:41:58,060 --> 00:42:01,810 means the ability for you to put a logo next to your email in the inbox. 833 00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:06,069 So before somebody actually opens your email, when you're looking at your email 834 00:42:06,075 --> 00:42:10,959 in, in Yahoo or in, uh, MacMail and those sort of things, you'll see that little 835 00:42:10,959 --> 00:42:12,850 indicator down the side that'll have. 836 00:42:13,195 --> 00:42:14,575 You know, your business logo. 837 00:42:14,695 --> 00:42:14,965 Yeah. 838 00:42:15,025 --> 00:42:19,795 Um, there, and that's, it's a way of displaying that outside 839 00:42:19,795 --> 00:42:21,355 of the Google ecosystem. 840 00:42:21,355 --> 00:42:24,115 So you might see that if you're in Google, you're just seeing 841 00:42:24,115 --> 00:42:26,035 the Google kind of avatar. 842 00:42:26,365 --> 00:42:26,455 Mm-hmm. 843 00:42:26,755 --> 00:42:31,375 . Um, but outside of Google's ecosystem, there wasn't a way for people to do 844 00:42:31,375 --> 00:42:33,715 that in an authenticated and secure way. 845 00:42:33,775 --> 00:42:35,725 And Bimi is a tool for doing that. 846 00:42:36,570 --> 00:42:40,920 So that again, is something that we encourage businesses to, to publish. 847 00:42:41,340 --> 00:42:44,580 So there's a lot of things that are kind of behind the scenes, but at the end of 848 00:42:44,820 --> 00:42:50,040 the day, like an email is an email, it's a subject line and some body content. 849 00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:54,330 And what you send in that you know, is really up to every business. 850 00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:59,415 Um, and, and I think, you know, trying to make sure that you're sending as 851 00:42:59,415 --> 00:43:03,885 personalized content as possible, and that's where like the tech, and I think a 852 00:43:03,885 --> 00:43:08,475 lot of the changes have come is yeah, how you go about doing that personalization. 853 00:43:08,865 --> 00:43:12,765 Whereas before, you know, it was like I had one subject line. 854 00:43:13,015 --> 00:43:17,694 And one set of body copy and everybody on my list got exactly the same thing. 855 00:43:17,964 --> 00:43:21,595 Now it can be completely dynamic and completely different for 856 00:43:21,625 --> 00:43:24,595 literally every single subscriber based on their preferences. 857 00:43:24,924 --> 00:43:28,615 Um, and it's not that much extra work for a business to actually send 858 00:43:28,620 --> 00:43:30,265 out emails that are that relevant. 859 00:43:30,685 --> 00:43:30,835 Hmm. 860 00:43:30,924 --> 00:43:36,325 Um, when you, when you've, you know, kind of tagged and, and, uh, you know, 861 00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:38,305 segmented your user base over time. 862 00:43:39,174 --> 00:43:39,535 Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. 863 00:43:40,325 --> 00:43:40,725 Fantastic. 864 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:47,310 Well, geez, Tom, I'm, I'm aware of time, first and foremost, uh, and I'm aware that 865 00:43:47,310 --> 00:43:49,109 I've still got 25 questions to ask you. 866 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:49,830 Um. 867 00:43:51,540 --> 00:43:55,229 So, uh, and I guess a lot of people have actually, uh, about email 868 00:43:55,229 --> 00:43:59,459 marketing because it has been around since the dawn of e-commerce. 869 00:43:59,820 --> 00:44:03,930 And it is still one of those things that people just don't get right. 870 00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:05,790 And it, it's a phenomenal thing. 871 00:44:05,790 --> 00:44:09,240 So if people have questions, if people wanna reach out to you, 872 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:10,630 what's the best way to do that? 873 00:44:11,595 --> 00:44:13,884 Tom Kulzer: Yeah, you can find us at aweber.com. 874 00:44:13,904 --> 00:44:15,915 Uh, I'm on all the social places. 875 00:44:15,915 --> 00:44:18,234 You can find me on Twitter at uh, TKultzer. 876 00:44:18,254 --> 00:44:21,375 Uh, you can email me at tomk@aweber.com. 877 00:44:21,495 --> 00:44:24,075 Um, and you know, you can give, give AWeber a shot. 878 00:44:24,075 --> 00:44:27,794 We have a freemium offering for up to 500 subscribers, so if you don't have a 879 00:44:27,794 --> 00:44:30,070 subscribe form on your website, Put one. 880 00:44:31,540 --> 00:44:32,620 It's a very minimum. 881 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:33,170 Yeah. 882 00:44:33,170 --> 00:44:35,710 One, one going away tip here I'll have for everybody. 883 00:44:35,710 --> 00:44:40,600 When someone subscribes to your email, if on your confirmation page after 884 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,560 someone hits, you know, enters their email address and hits, submit, the 885 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:50,210 page that comes up after that is often this barren wasteland of nothingness 886 00:44:50,210 --> 00:44:51,810 is like, Hey, thanks for subscribing. 887 00:44:52,050 --> 00:44:55,080 Put something for your audience to buy on there. 888 00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:55,470 Yeah. 889 00:44:55,470 --> 00:44:58,920 So like in your, you know, in your case Matt, you know, put something 890 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,290 about your e-commerce cohort on there. 891 00:45:01,590 --> 00:45:01,890 Yeah. 892 00:45:01,950 --> 00:45:05,790 So that people have an opportunity to see what else you're doing. 893 00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:09,240 They're more, if they've just broken out their email address. 894 00:45:09,710 --> 00:45:12,920 Their credit card is really only one step away from that. 895 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:12,980 Yeah. 896 00:45:13,010 --> 00:45:17,100 Uh, and it's not that much farther away and we often see, you know, businesses 897 00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:21,140 that didn't have something on that thank you page generating 10, 20, 30% 898 00:45:21,170 --> 00:45:25,340 additional revenue just from that single page because it gets so much traffic and 899 00:45:25,345 --> 00:45:29,600 because those users are so much higher engaged than other people on your website. 900 00:45:29,690 --> 00:45:30,050 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 901 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,220 Top tip. 902 00:45:31,995 --> 00:45:33,105 I like that. 903 00:45:33,405 --> 00:45:36,405 Uh, we will, I'll be checking with our marketing team now. 904 00:45:36,525 --> 00:45:38,655 I'm gonna go and fill out some forms on our websites. 905 00:45:38,955 --> 00:45:40,215 Ooh, I wonder what it tells me. 906 00:45:40,665 --> 00:45:45,795 Um, Tom, thank you so much for coming onto the eCommerce podcast, man. 907 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:46,755 It's been great to meet you. 908 00:45:46,755 --> 00:45:49,395 Great to hear your, uh, insight and thoughts. 909 00:45:49,395 --> 00:45:52,485 And more than anything, if I'm honest, it's just lovely to hear your passion is 910 00:45:52,485 --> 00:45:57,195 still there for, obviously, for email, uh, even after all of these years, and 911 00:45:57,195 --> 00:45:58,575 that's actually something quite special. 912 00:45:58,575 --> 00:46:03,525 So, um, thank you for coming and sharing it with us, uh, on the e-Commerce podcast. 913 00:46:04,455 --> 00:46:05,025 Tom Kulzer: Likewise. 914 00:46:05,025 --> 00:46:05,924 Thanks for having me, Matt. 915 00:46:05,924 --> 00:46:06,525 It's been fun. 916 00:46:06,975 --> 00:46:08,055 Matt Edmundson: Oh, no worries Matt. 917 00:46:08,055 --> 00:46:08,625 No worries. 918 00:46:09,015 --> 00:46:10,785 So let's play the music. 919 00:46:10,785 --> 00:46:11,235 There we go.. 920 00:46:12,165 --> 00:46:18,075 Thanks again, uh, to Tom for joining me here on the podcast. 921 00:46:18,345 --> 00:46:22,455 Uh, listen, if you signed up for our emails newsletter, one 922 00:46:22,455 --> 00:46:23,055 of the things that will be. 923 00:46:24,095 --> 00:46:28,085 Winging its way to you as this podcast goes live, uh, is the transcripts 924 00:46:28,085 --> 00:46:29,915 and notes from today's conversation. 925 00:46:30,095 --> 00:46:34,095 If you don't have that, you can head over to ecommercepodcast.net. 926 00:46:34,295 --> 00:46:37,595 You can read it, you can get all the notes, all of the links to Tom and to 927 00:46:37,625 --> 00:46:39,545 AWeber and to all that sort of stuff. 928 00:46:39,605 --> 00:46:43,925 And of course, you can sign up for our emails newsletter, and I'm, let's 929 00:46:43,925 --> 00:46:47,725 see what happens when you fill it in. 930 00:46:47,755 --> 00:46:48,375 Absolutely. 931 00:46:48,395 --> 00:46:49,445 Let's have a look at that. 932 00:46:50,635 --> 00:46:55,115 So, uh, big shout out to today's show, sponsor ecommercecohort.com. 933 00:46:55,135 --> 00:47:00,055 Do head over to ecommercecohort.com for more information about this new 934 00:47:00,055 --> 00:47:02,425 type of community which you can join. 935 00:47:02,935 --> 00:47:07,225 Be sure to follow the eCommerce podcast wherever you get your podcast from because 936 00:47:07,375 --> 00:47:10,855 we've got even more great conversations lined up just like today's with Tom. 937 00:47:11,305 --> 00:47:13,435 And I don't want you to miss any of them. 938 00:47:13,735 --> 00:47:19,215 And in case no one has told you yet today dear listener, you are awesome. 939 00:47:19,455 --> 00:47:20,085 Yes, you are. 940 00:47:20,145 --> 00:47:22,185 It's just a burden we all have to bear. 941 00:47:22,515 --> 00:47:24,915 Uh, you, me, Tom, just the way it is. 942 00:47:25,365 --> 00:47:28,515 Uh, the e-commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media. 943 00:47:28,515 --> 00:47:32,535 You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 944 00:47:32,985 --> 00:47:37,375 The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole, 945 00:47:37,555 --> 00:47:39,495 Estella Robin, and Tim Johnson. 946 00:47:39,875 --> 00:47:43,380 Our theme song has been written by Josh Edmundson and My Good Self. 947 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,790 And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or 948 00:47:45,810 --> 00:47:49,950 show notes, ecommercepodcast.net is where you need to head to. 949 00:47:50,370 --> 00:47:52,750 So that's it from me and from Tom. 950 00:47:52,770 --> 00:47:57,030 Thank you so much for joining us this week on the eCommerce podcast. 951 00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,350 I'll see you next time. 952 00:47:58,890 --> 00:47:59,430 Bye for now.