You want to be in a position where you can be open and creative and honest, right? That's how employers get the best work out of people. That's how you feel that you are part of a team that you want to work really hard with and really hard for, you know, your, your supervisor, if you're all kind of in agreement that you can bring your full self to work. Um, I think that employers are starting to recognize that, but I also think that they are hesitant to, to talk about mental health in the workplace because I think If they're concerned, they may open up a can of worms that they don't know how to deal with.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor in how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

A Black Executive Perspective.

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast. A safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit. So before we get started for a very impactful episode, I want to remind everyone that please don't forget to check out our partners at CodeM Magazine, whose mission is saving the Black family by first, uh, Saving the black man. So go and check out their content at code. M magazine. com. That is code M magazine. com. So today we're going to explore mental health in the workplace with our guests, Dr. Patrice LeGoy and Matt Schuster. Matt is going to be kindly enough to share his personal experiences with mental health challenges at the workplace. In addition, we'll discuss internal and external triggers that affect mental well being and how they play out in professional settings. Dr. Legoy will analyze these experiences and offer practical strategies for individuals and organizations to support mental health. Our goal here today, everyone, is to enlighten people at work, supervisors and peers on managing these issues, effectively promoting a healthier workplace for all. So Dr. Patrice LeGoy, Matt Schuster, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast, my brother and my sister.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks, Tony.

Well, look, I'm excited to dive into this. You know, we, Matt, you and I got to give you a lot of credit. My brother, you came on BEP and you talked openly about some of the challenges that you went through, which showed a lot of courage for you to do that. And so having Dr. Legoy on here, who, was also a former guest, at least a couple of times on BET and she talked about being mindful of your mental health. So this will be great to be able to have both of you talk about this issue to educate others in something that has been more taboo, but we got to get out of the taboo ness and really be able to put it on the table because this is something in that. All people deal with at some point, and that includes your host here. But before we dive into it and get into the deep, heavy stuff, Dr. Legoy, Matt Schuster, why don't you tell us, give the audience a little bit about your background, where are you currently residing and tell us about your family.

Uh, I'll get started. Um, so I am an international psychologist and licensed marriage and family therapist. I live in Los Angeles. with my son who's eight and my husband and we have a big shepherd mix, a hundred pound dog named Cosmo. Um, so our house is never quiet, but I, uh, before becoming a psychologist and a therapist, I worked in entertainment for about 15 years. Um, so complete pivot and, uh, you know, I love talking to you, Tony, because I get to. Remember the corporate side of everything. And then also talk about it from a psychological point of view and, um, and just in a quest for mental wellness, like in all facets of our life, including at work.

Well, that is awesome. And I love the pivot, right? Um, that is great. Matt did that as well, the pivot. So we are talking about it, right? Um, so thank you. Welcome to the show. Matt Schuster, tell us a little bit, buddy. What's your background? Tell us where you reside in, and a little bit about your family.

Yeah, thanks Tony. And, uh, I was gonna say, uh, Dr. LeGoy, that's a, it's, it's eerily similar to, uh, the trajectory I took. So, um, so I'm currently living in, uh, northern New Jersey in a town called Glenrock. Um, I am, uh, presently the co-founder of a new sports nutrition company called Addra Labs, uh, where we make, uh, sports nutrition products for endurance athletes. We just actually launched the company about a month and a half ago with, uh, the first protein bar designed for endurance athletes. Um, prior to that, I was, uh, also in the corporate world. So I worked in advertising, uh, advertising sales and technology and, um, around 2020 went into a pretty strong pivot as well. From a world of community, the city, uh, and corporate life into becoming, you know, an aspiring athlete and into the world of endurance sport. And that kind of led to some of the things that we're going to be talking about today. Um, but none of this could be possible without my partner in crime. Uh, my wife, Rachel, uh, who is the CEO of the house and puts up with a lot of my. A lot of my, uh, shenanigans and nonsense, um, and then we have, uh, two little ones, Jack and Max, uh, nine and five, uh, and then our, our oldest son is our dog Howie, who is not quite the same size. Um, as yours, Dr. LeGoy, but, uh, he's 11 going on five and you know, we love him.

That was awesome, buddy. I love it. And I'm hearing a theme here, you know, not just in terms of, well, east Coast, west Coast, okay. Uh, pivoting in terms of one industry moving to another right. Family, and then you got the biggest kid in the family is the dogs. Okay. So, so, I mean, we got so many similarities here and I got to say this about Matt's, um, new company, uh, Addra Labs all right, the protein bars are. Fabulous. Uh, you know, I'm addicted to the apple pie one to be honest. Okay. So, you know, uh, BP is a sponsor of Addra Labs. Um, so it's definitely something that you want to check out regardless if you are high endurance athlete or you just work out a couple of days a week to stay in shape and you want to eat something healthy. You definitely want to check out his product and we'll have more information on that at the end of the show. So more importantly, thank you guys for giving us a little bit about you. Now, the question I ask, and I'll kick this off with Dr. Legoy, look, you've been on here a couple of times. You are well renowned. You've been on a bunch of shows. I've seen you with little Wayne. I've seen you all over the place, right? You're in high demand. We're Why did you want to come on a black executive perspective podcast? Talk about this topic.

Well, you know, Tony, I'd jump at any opportunity to speak with you. I just think you bring, uh, such insightful comments and, um, Really mindful about everyone that you encounter. And I just really appreciate that. And I think for this particular topic, you know, hearing that story, it just reminded me, like, there is no way to exclude whatever has happened with you internally. From how you present in the rest of the world, and we're at work many hours out of the days. Often spend more time with people at work than you do with your own family, right? And so I think it's, uh, it's really impossible to ignore that you are going to bring, you know, whatever challenges that you are dealing with into work. Sometimes your challenges are exacerbated by work, um, depending on, you know, your situation and your coworkers. And I think that we have yet to figure out a lot of good ways to talk about it at work. Right. And so, um, I, I just thought this was such a relevant topic and to be able to do that with the two of you, you know, I think it's just, it's such a pleasure.

That is awesome. Mr. Schuster, you were on here before. I mean, listen, like I said, I give you a lot of buddy that was, and you blew me away and we've been friends for almost 20 years. So why'd you want to come back and talk about this topic?

Uh, two reasons actually. So one is, um, you know, some of the, some of the experiences I had, I haven't With anyone really outside of my immediate family and, uh, only in the last couple of months have I actually started opening up about it. And the biggest thing I learned was the more I shared, the more other people felt or experienced or encountered many of the same things. And what, what really came to light was the more you can share, the more you can talk about it, the more you can normalize it. Um, the more people feel more comfortable talking about it. So if y'all. This was an awesome opportunity to use the platform that you built and really Normalize talking about something that's got that stigma and then the second reason was Um, you know, almost a little over a year ago today, I listened to your first episode with Dr. Legoy and I remember saying, wow, she's awesome. And when I heard it was the opportunity to do a show together, I was like, yeah, I want it selfishly because I want to pick her brain. Um, so, uh, and I don't claim to have all the answers and, you know, my experience is, you know, an end of one, but you know, if, if hearing the story and hearing the things that I. Did and went through and the tools I used is helpful for others then So be it. Um, but having Dr. LeGoy to have a level of expertise along with it is, is even better.

Wow. Wow. Well, thank you, buddy. You guys are both givers and we're so excited that you're here to talk about something that's going to help a lot of people. So you guys ready to talk about it?

Yes. Ready?

All right. So let's talk about it. So, Dr. LeGoy, I'm going to come to you first, right? Let's set the stage, right? When we talk about mental health and we talk about mental health in the workplace, what are some of the common issues about mental health in the workplace that people typically deal with, but don't share?

Yes, I think in a lot of workplaces, there is a natural hierarchy that exists, right? And there is a pressure that comes with, Trying to advance. So you are constantly in this kind of rat race of like, okay, I have this job now. This is my salary. What's the next step? What's the next step? And I think it's difficult when we're in that place to find ourselves ever really satisfied with where we are in the moment. Um, I think that's one of the things just constantly trying to achieve, which is not a negative. In and of itself, but it doesn't really give much space for us to be in the present, to be enjoying the things that we're doing right now. Um, you know, there's also whatever's happening in the world is happening at work, right? So, like, for instance, right now, a lot of people are thinking about the election. So if you, however, you feel you are taking that with you to work, maybe you're avoiding certain conversations. Maybe you're talking more to people who, you know, you agree with, um, but it still is, you know, Is bringing outside factors into work that can be very stressful, right? Um, for people. And, you know, I think just that the pressure to act like everything is great that there's nothing can touch you is is very real. When you're at work, whether in a position of leadership or you're trying to be in a position of leadership, you don't really want to show how vulnerable you are in situations. It's just it's not really modeled for us. And most of the time. And so if you don't see that, See anyone showing vulnerability. You don't see anyone acknowledging that they're having a tough time. You don't feel that there's space for you to do that either. Right. And so we hold things in, we repress the feelings that we're having and they build and they build and they build. And so I think that. You know, those are some of the main pressures. It's just a product of being in that workplace and being in society, right? Those that those issues. And on top of that, we might have other things going on that are also aggravated by trying to put on, um, this mask at work, right? And trying to keep up that image that we have created with our coworkers.

So, and look. You're 100 percent right. I saw Matt nodding his head. And obviously, there's probably another arm length of issues that go in that from family issues to, you know, there's a societal you talked a little bit about, but there's a million things that people carry baggage that they come in with. Right. And that can, you know, they may even start a job with mental health issues. Okay. So now, yeah. You know, we're talking about work. We talk about corporate America, you know, businesses are like, we have a business here and, you know, at the end of the day, we're hiring you to do a job. And at the end of the day, we want you to do this job at the best of your ability. That's going to allow us to sell more widgets or make more revenue or whatever the case may be. So, why is it crucial for companies to address these issues proactively when, like you said, And we all grew up before they, this was a taboo. You didn't even do, you just got finished saying it, right? If you bring it up and man to talk about his story, it's, it could be perceived as a weakness. It goes against you moving forward. It doesn't, now people looking at you sideways, you know, so all the things, the fear that we have in terms of talking about it, right. Why is it important that the companies now really. Focus on this and make this an important thing to deal with in the workplace.

I'd be really interested to hear what Matt has to say. I think from my point of view, I recognize that you don't get the entire ability of an employee who is, who is not able to be present. You don't get, you don't get to see what they're actually capable of. When they are trying to hold so much in and just get through the day, right? Like no one wants to be in a position where you're just trying to get through the day. You want to be in a position where you can be open and creative and honest, right? That's how employers get the best work out of people. That's how you. feel that you are part of a team that you want to work really hard with and really hard for, you know, your, your supervisor. If, if you're all kind of in agreement that you can bring your full self to work. Um, I think that employers are starting to recognize that, but I also think that they are hesitant to, to talk about mental health in the workplace because I think that they're concerned they might open up a can of worms that they don't know how to deal with. I really should just be like, from your perspective, Matt, what do you think, why do you think it should be important?

Yeah, I think that last point you made is spot on because, you know, when I was, um, in my last role in the corporate world, I was, uh, chief revenue officer. So I was 1 of 3 executives overseeing a large chunk of a company. And, um, it was, it was pre pandemic. Um, so I know that a lot of the, the emphasis and, um, you know, a lot of the interesting solutions that have come about really came outta the, the response to lockdowns and things like that. But, but even then, it just wasn't something that was top of mind because. Especially at a startup or midsize company, you have so many priorities, you have so many things and some days you're just trying to keep the lights on and, you know, tackling a, a systemic issues such as mental health is very, very labor intensive for these organizations and a lot of them just don't have the infrastructure to take on the project. So either they roll out something that falls flat because it's not fully baked, um, or they just prioritize other things because it's not something that's mainstream, um, in the corporate world. Um, the one thing that I will say though, is there, there is this common understanding around mental health as a term being very black and white in terms of you have mental health problems. But when you look at any other, um, uh, type of health, physical health, fitness, illness, it's not, it, it, there's a spectrum and, and mental health is not something that you are either good or bad with. It's, it's always there. There's always something going on. Even the most confident, successful, incredible humans on the planet have days that are good and days that are bad. And just like with exercise. Mental health is something that you have to work towards yourself on an ongoing basis and we've, we've really taken the phrase and turned it into, or it is really reflected as something negative when in actuality it's something that we all have to deal with on a day to day basis.

Dr. LeGoy, what's your thoughts on that?

I think that's such an important point you make, Matt, that it is a spectrum. Um, and. Day to day, you might get it. You might get a different version of what's going on with me. And that the point isn't to be healed for every day to be perfect for you to never have any problems, right? It's more that when something comes up that you can take a moment. You can process it. You can manage it so it doesn't have to spill over into other parts of your life. But I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think, I think that you're, you're correct that people think mental health is something to achieve or mental, you know, having challenges is something to avoid. And that's, it's just not possible. I mean, you, you go through your life, there's going to be challenges. It's how, how do we learn how to deal with them? What are the tools that are available to us? So that when, not if these problems come up, We, we know how, we know how to manage them. You know, we know who is safe for us to talk with. We know what we need to do for ourselves, all of those things. And I think that it's just, I'm really glad that you, that you brought that up.

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And speaking of that, so Matt, why don't you dovetail and talk to us a little bit about some of the things that, and you, so number one, let me back up. You make it, you just made an excellent point, um, and I'm glad Dr. LeGoy, um, you know, added to it. And it's something, you know, there's an old saying, words paint pictures, okay? So when you say mental health, the picture in somebody's mind is This person is crazy or this person is off or this person versus This person is like you guys just got finished saying there's one and it could be a confidence area There could be an area of you know, am I do I um, uh, am I smart enough? There can be an imposter syndrome area There can be and and I doctor who i'm just throwing stuff out You can dive into you'll dive into it further, but there's different little things that we all go through Right. And Matt, what you just got from the saying was key. I don't care if you come across and somebody think they're superman or superwoman. There's a day. There's a time frame. There's a moment where they all of a sudden kryptonite comes up and they feel the lowest of the low. Right. And it'd be no different than when you talk physical health. Excuse me. Yeah. Physical health where you catch cold. Okay. Or, you know, this leg hurts. Okay. Or, you know, whatever, and then it's just, it's just one. Oh, you got a code. You'll be fine. All right. But when you say mental health, oh, what do we got it? So there's a lot of education. So why don't you start off by talking to the audience about, um, The things, the challenges that you were going through, Matt, and then Dr. Legoy, you can jump in from there.

Sure. Yeah. Um, so the, uh, I won't go all the way back. We'll keep it, keep it somewhat concise. If you want to hear the full story, you can listen to the previous episode. Um, but, uh, basically, uh, I had, like Dr. LeGoy had mentioned, um, gotten onto that escalator, chasing the top of the corporate ladder and, you know, went through a career that started as a salesperson, progressed into management, and ultimately, uh, led to, you know, a chief executive, uh, role, uh, running a large part of an organization. you know, along the way, um, some of the key foundational pieces of my mental psyche never formed and never developed. And what happened was, is that one of the things they don't tell you is the closer you get to the top, the more lonely it gets and your peer set shrinks and your confidence shrink. And. You know, those that you can confide in become fewer and fewer, uh, and if you are someone that hasn't developed certain key traits, those traits being, One, um, a foundation of priorities of self-worth that aren't just tied to the work that you do at that job. Um, if your entire validation system is based on your work output, you're basically one bad day away from being, you know, tipping over the edge. Um, two, you, you know, did not build a support system. Basically, just assume that I would get, you know, folks within the organization that would fall into line or fall into place. Similarly, that, um, I may have had in previous organizations or previous roles and, um, you know, that led to, uh, a point of collapse and burnout and, um, in spectacular fashion and I'm sure we'll go into the details, but. I had to, at the kind of the height of the peak of my career, completely walk away. And, um, it had nothing to do with the pandemic. It had nothing to do with, um, furloughs or layoffs or success of the business. It was purely. You know, I had not, I'd lost the ability to perform, um, in any work setting, let alone in an executive level work setting, um, and had to basically rebuild myself from, from the ground up from scratch, um, and found a new path in life, found, found a path as an athlete, um, found a path as an entrepreneur, uh, and found a passion for a new, um, Um, direction that I could take my life from a career perspective, from a personal perspective, family perspective.

Well, number one, thanks buddy for sharing that. Um, and there, you said a lot there, right? Because there's a lot of different things that you were dealing with, um, at that time frame. And. To be fair, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, Dr. Legoy, it seemed like they all kind of closed in, right? All around the same time. Well, in other words, you had this, and then evolved to this, then evolved to this, then evolved to that, where you were like, I can't take it any longer. Right? We're going back to what we just got finished talking about earlier, where mental health is multiple things, right? So it wasn't just because some of the things that you talked about, I can relate to. Okay, I've been in that. Position. I thought like that, but it wasn't this, then that, then this, then that. Right. So, Dr. talk a little bit about what Matt was going through and how in society, what do you see when these things start happening? And more importantly, how could, um, Not just the individual, they may recognize it or they may not. They may just think it's a bad day. Right. And what's some of the things that they could do before it starts spiraling out of control?

Absolutely. I think, you know, starting with that, that feeling of isolation, I think that when we are achieving, you know, on that, that corporate ladder, you, you kind of get, um, sold like a bill of goods, right? When I get to this point, it's going to be like this. And you guys are like, wait, why do I, I don't feel good. Like I have the title, I have, I have the salary, but like something, this doesn't feel like the way I thought it would. And so there's that, that disappointment, right? We feel like, you know, that we've been bamboozled. And so you're like, well, what do I need? I don't know what I need because this is what I've been working for. This is the thing that I've been thinking about and I thought this is what success was, you know? And I, so I think that is one thing that can be really confusing to a lot of people. And I bet Matt, once you got to that point, you might feel like, who's going to be sympathetic to me? Who's going to feel bad for me? I have this title, you know, I've, I've achieved this. You're an old poor guy, you know? And so I think that we, we hesitate, you know, to share things, especially when you're at that level. Um, because it seems like this should be what makes you happy. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think also That combined with, um, and is connected to having your job be such a major part of your identity that you feel lost without it. Like it can cause us to remain in a situation that is not good for us because this is who I am. If you ask me who I am, I tell you what I do, right? I did when you first asked me, Tony, you know, okay, tell us about yourself. I started with what I do. Um, and I think a lot of us do, you know, and we probably all heard stories of people who Work in a position, retire, and then a few months later, they have to wait like that was their life, right? That was their life. That was what kept them going. And so I think then to tie into, you know, another point that you made, Matt, is not building that support system, right? So that it. We find ourselves feeling isolated when we get into that position. If we find that, you know, our whole identity feels like it's our job, then we have someone who knows us, knows that we are not defined by what we do, by what our title is, like, that all kind of needs to happen. And I love and appreciate how you. Rebuilt that for yourself when you when you realize this is not what it was cracked up to be. This is not doing it for me. I need to find another way. Um, and that's not easy to do. You know, I think a lot of people just keep going, um, and kind of are suffering internally without really sharing it. So, you know, I think that you sharing your story can probably make a lot of people feel less alone.

It's 100 percent true and I think the whole concept of suffering and silence, um, is. There's more people that are experiencing that than there are not. And, um, and a lot of times they don't even realize it. A lot of times it's just been built as a societal norm. Like, oh yeah, this is, um, it's supposed to feel like this. This is what success feels like. It's struggle. It's hard. It's uncomfortable. It's lonely. And, and then if you go too far and go over the edge and then you're able to. You know, wake up from the matrix, so to speak, and look like, wait a minute. No, life's not supposed to feel like that. The structure you built for yourself. And, and I phrased that specifically like that because. It's not an organization's job to make sure that you are taking care of your mental health. It's your responsibility, just like it's your responsibility to eat healthy and eat your vegetables. Um, it is their responsibility to recognize and support 100%. But, um, I think not knowing and not learning the basics, um, And then jumping into all of those, you know, trials and tribulations of the top. Um, you know, there's a lot of people out there that are, are, are experiencing this now and don't even realize that they're, they're, you know, on this treadmill. Um, and, uh, and I think that, you know, one of the things we'll, I assume we're going to get into is kind of how to recognize it and, you know, what are, what are the signs or the symptoms either? For you to see it for yourself, or for you to see it in others that may be struggling with it. But, um,

yeah, I think that, uh, you know, it is an important distinction between what is like a company's and organizations responsibility. And what is yours? I think that organizations can create environments that are more open, um, that people do not feel like they will be punished. Or ignored if they're having challenges and that part of the personal responsibility that you mentioned is so important. Because if I work for a company. And they're, they're thinking, okay, well, let's really prioritize mental health and everything. And I leave and go to another company, I'm still bringing my issues with me, right? Even the best company cannot fix that for you. They can do things to make that process easier or, um, normalize that experience. And we have to figure out what are the things that I uniquely as a person need to, to move through this moment, to. To be ready for the next challenges that come, right? So I think it's really, um, it's really a partnership with you having to be in the driver's seat for sure.

So Dr. LeGoy, thanks for that. You too, Matt. Let me ask you this, cause I agree with you. They think, well, how much. Um, in terms of the company, so when we and again, we're painting broad brushes when we use words like company. Okay. When we, the company is not responsible for people's mental health. Right? Where we should be talking more or it shouldn't be. We should talk more about their manager. Right? Because if you are a manager, And you're building relationships, honest, authentic relationships with people, right? Would that have some type of effect in terms of people feeling a little bit more comfortable? Because I've had people on my team and, and look, you don't know all the time, but when you work with somebody over and over again, you have a relationship and then you start seeing them Little quiet, or maybe a little frantic or something, or, you know, they're not speaking out like they usually speak or whatever. You kind of say, Hey, Matt, let me chat with you. Is everything okay? Cause you notice something about that individual. So speak a little bit about that in terms of how, you know, somebody, and let's tie that into triggers because that goes into, you know, what's the trigger that somebody should look for. All right. What's number one. What's the trigger that unfortunately makes the, uh, issues that people have from a mental health standpoint become more stronger? And then what's some of the triggers that as a colleague or a friend that we should look forward to in terms of recognizing there could be an issue regardless if somebody says something or not?

I think that what you're describing, okay, don't don't take this analogy the wrong way. But, you know, if you're a parent, it is your responsibility to. Model to your child how to handle conflict, how to deal with challenges that they have. Right? They see you and they will behave as you do, no matter what you tell them, they're going to behave as you do. Right? So it's really important to model for them how to work with other people who are different than them, you know, whether they're playing on a sports team or that kind of thing. When you are a leader of an organization, I'm not saying your employees, you know, your colleagues or children, but I am saying that you power in a position of responsibility to model for them. Being a real, genuine, authentic person in the workplace, right? And you're, you're, you're right, Tony. I think that, I think it's a really good point. We're not getting every corporation to change, but the people that work within corporations can, can change and it can be subtle, but there people will know when, okay, I feel that my team is, is safe. I can share things with that. Um, I don't, they're not going to run to HR and say, you know, I have a problem necessarily, but maybe they can. Provide resources for me, or maybe just lend an ear, you know, sometimes that's what people need. And I think that that is what managers can do. And sometimes, you know, your coworkers many times, maybe can tie into some of the triggers, right? Okay. This, this person reminds me of my mom and she always treated me like this. And so now my encounters with you, Are different because I'm carrying my baggage that maybe doesn't belong in that space. Right? But I also think triggers can, you know, happen from just what we're dealing with, you know, every day. Like, if I have a fight with my spouse and I go into work and I feel like my boss is giving me a hard time. They're not going to understand where I'm coming from, but because. I can't tell you. Hey, I just need a second. I need to think about that. Or I haven't myself figured out how to manage what's going on with me before it's projected on to other people. It's going to come into the work triggers completely different for all of us. Um, and we are more easily triggered when we are not used to being in tune with what's happening with ourselves. So having are seeing other people do that.

Matt, what's your thoughts on that? My brother?

No, I think, um, your point is, is super valid. I think it's the, you know, the organization, the responsibility is to be sympathetic and prioritize, um, a safe space for its employees. It's the managers got the active role, just like in any other aspect of management. Right. It's, it's their job to actually create that space. And that's really the ultimate, um, or the biggest responsibility that comes from the employer, which is, um, can you create an environment for your employees where they're comfortable, where they can speak up where they can, you know, they have resources or someone to reach out to that. Won't necessarily negatively impact their social status or their, you know, professional status within the organization. Um, and that, that fear is gone and that they can, they can be a bit vulnerable. Um, that's a, that's a hard thing to accomplish because it is not just. Policy that, that requires human beings that requires, I mean, that's, you know, I wouldn't be

human beings. Right?

Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's something that you did really well as a manager. We, we worked directly together for half a decade and, um, you know, 1 of the things that you always, always prioritize is that no matter what's going on, you know, you have to be real with each other and you have to share what's going on. Cause you know, none of us are as much as we try to be, but none of us are mind readers. You know, we can't tell what's going on, but, um, you know, saying that and, and acting, um, leading by example and, you know, being able to be transparent, um, you know, those are the things that the managers, you know, can instill into their teams to create that environment. Um, I think the, the concept of triggers or, or signals, um, that's an interesting one, right? Because we said in the beginning. Uh, the people that are suffering the most show at the least and, you know, the, in that sense, one of the signs actually becomes no sign, right? Like, we may not be mind readers, but we're logical humans and we can see, you know, 1 plus 2 plus 3, you know, this person just lost a big deal. Um, you know, just had an argument with a coworker and just had something else. As a human, I can look at that and go, wow, I'd be pretty stressed out. They don't seem stressed out at all. Something's probably wrong because they're masking it or hiding it or doing something. Um, but you know, we're not, it's not acceptable to go up and be like, Hey, are you okay? I know you've been through a lot, but, um, you know, maybe you need to decompress a little bit. The natural reaction to that person is like, nah, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. Gotta, gotta put on the armor. Um, but the reality is that you can see it. Like, uh, if you, if you would be overwhelmed by something by watching it, odds are that the person is probably a bit overwhelmed, whether they want to admit it or not. Um, because we are all very special, but at the same time, we're all not all that special. We all can react in very similar ways to stresses. So,

so Dr. Legoy, based on what Matt just got, because that's an excellent point, right? Um, you know, most people, when we look, when we have issues. We, we tend to hide them or do our best and hide them. Right? Um, we don't let our emotions get the best of us. We always, you know, that. And again, this is part of the part of moving up in an organization is being positive, right? Overcoming challenges. Like, when I was in the army, nobody wanted to hear about, you couldn't hack this. This or, uh, you need, you need a mental break. You kidding me? And even though you did, you ain't saying it. All right. Even though you're scared about the next drill or whatever the case may be. You're not going to tell nobody that you're going to, I'm okay. You know, uh, the, the term I hate today when I hear people say, Hey, how you doing living the dream? I'm like, that's the weakest. Every time I hear it, I know they lie. All right. John, why even say it? Right. But we say it because we want to. Project that we're doing okay. All right. And so, and look, this is a million books and we as Americans is about overcoming and all those type things. So talk a little bit about when somebody does. I think that's really the key, right? Talk a little bit about what can you do internally for yourself? To try to get yourself out of that, you may not tell somebody, but what can you do mentally to try to change the course of the situation? I talk about from a stress, you know, that I want to show it, but I am stressed out or I'm really, I lost this deal because I'm no good when it had nothing to do with you. You know what I'm saying? So you're now internalizing this. And now it's starting to spiral out of control. Okay. So talk about some of the things people could do.

I think step one is, is part of what we're trying to do now, which is normalizing this conversation. There are all kinds of reasons that people feel like they have to keep it to themselves. But I think we can all acknowledge we live in an individualistic society where people love self made stories independent. I did it on my own. Right. It's so much in the culture of America. Okay. Um, it's so celebrated that that doesn't leave a lot of space for some of the more collectivistic virtues of working as a team, doing things together, sharing our challenges and our successes. Right? That's it's just, this is the society where we are. We can recognize that. And then we can think about how do I make my. Microcosm, my team, how do I make it not like those of the, those are like the most, the values that we most focus on. Right? How do I, how do I make sure that people understand that I value as an individual, but I don't expect you to do everything by yourself. How do we give ourselves that kind of grace to remember that whatever your successes are, whatever your challenges are. There's other people along the way. There's other people who helped you get to that level. So you're not alone, right? And when you then also, when you are having a tough time, you're also, you also don't need to be alone. Um, and I think that a lot of it is just, um, you know, you mentioned spirals. We can get in just a shame spiral about, I should, I should be good. I should be fine. I'm just going to act like it is until hopefully one day I wake up and all my problems are gone. This doesn't really work like that. Sometimes you're having a tough day and you do feel better the next day. But when you are in deep, and as we were talking earlier, all these things are piling on each other. You have, there needs to be action that has to be taken, right? We need to be thinking about this old formula is not working for me. No matter how much I've been sold on, this is, this is the thing I should want. And I should be happy at this level. I personally, I may need something else. How do I figure out what that is? How do I give myself space and grace to figure out what that is without feeling bad about it? Cause just feeling bad about it doesn't really like get us, you know, moving towards what is healthy for us. We just feel bad. We just feel bad and, and that is, can be pAddralyzing for a lot of people.

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what's your thoughts on that?

Oh, I have a lot. Uh, um, I'll, I'll, I'll throw the caveat out there that what I'm about to share is my own experience. Um, this is what worked for me and, um, it may work for you. I encourage you to give it a try. Um, so the first thing is, you know, you talked about the shame spiral, um, take an inventory of everything that's going on in your head, in your life, you know, Basically your existence and, and really take a, um, objective point of view of what do you have that's, that's currently happening physically. And then what is going on in your head emotionally and odds are those things are probably not going to line up. Um, and what that's going to do is really shine a light on what direction your inner monologue is going in. Everyone's got an inner dialogue, you know, whether it's, you know, Man, I can't believe I missed that shot when you were playing golf or whatever, but the inner monologue can, can build and become so loud and it's completely tied to your nervous system, whether you're in a sympathetic or pAddrasympathetic state. Um, and if you're in that fight or flight state, that noise, that, that voice is just going to be like, get out, get out, get out, whatever you do, run away, run away, get away from that. And it's going to say whatever it has to, and what ends up happening, if you become falling down this slope, um, into the shame spiral, it's just going to latch onto, you need to get out of that situation. So I'm going to tell you the darkest, dirtiest, most awful things that make you never want to go back to that place again. And it gets in your ear like when I was at my lowest point, I would wake up and the first thought in my head was like, You are so bad at your job. You're, you're, you're a terrible father. You're not even home. Like, why do you even exist? The only thing you're worth is your health or your life insurance policy. Why don't you just leave that to the kids? Like, these are the things that, this is the noise. These are the things that are said in your head. So taking an inventory. To understand, all right, what is actually happening and then breaking it down into what of that can you control and what can't you? Because there's always things that you can control, right? Like, all right, I am, this was my situation. I'm completely out of shape. I'm 40 pounds overweight. My cholesterol is through the roof. I'm sleeping four hours a night. Um, you know, I'm struggling to get out of bed, to go to work every day. Um, things at work seem to be going okay, but I feel terrible even when the good things happen. And, um, you know, I'm not present at all, really, as a father right now. So across that, what can you control? Well, you shift over to things, you know, action is created by action. So, all right, I'm going to start getting into shape. I'm going to start making better eating choices. I won't get into the whole connection between physical health and mental health. I think that's a whole different podcast, but, um, let's start doing the things that we can do and then it'll carry over. Right. All of a sudden things start to progress and get a little bit better. Um, the next big thing that I did that helped was. It's using tactics to approach hard situations and hard thoughts. Uh, and the biggest one that worked for me was, um, basically a type of reframing. So taking a situation that happened and usually it's the reaction was, Oh my God, it's awful. I'm terrible. I'm just, everything's going to go down and isolating out the emotional reaction and being excited. Which. Which of these is driven by fear? Uh, and which of these is driven by association with failure? And how can I turn those into, um, actionable and accountable steps that I could take? Right? So like, You know, somebody came in and one of my managers is having a problem with another employee that they've been having for a long time. Initial reaction. Oh man, uh, interpersonal conflict. I don't know how to deal with this. All right, take the fear out. What can I actually do? Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then go activate. And it's just reframing your perspective from what you're scared of a situation to what you can do about the situation. And you apply that across the board. Um, and then the, the last big one was, um, doing a lot of, uh, I guess you'd call it mindfulness work. So we underestimate this, but taking 10 minutes, 15 minutes to essentially try to do a reset, to give your brain a chance to just, Process things. Uh, and this doesn't have to be full blown meditation. This doesn't have to be, uh, some drawn out thing. It could just simply be sitting in a quiet room for 10 minutes. But just sitting down, focusing on your breathing, letting everything calm down, letting yourself reset. Um, it was so eye opening the first time I did it because you come out of it just with almost like an instantaneous different perspective. You finally got your body to calm down. You finally got your nervous system to switch over. And you can think clearly, you're not thinking off of, you know, adrenaline and cortisol, you're thinking off of, you know, normal hormonal balance. Um, so those are the three big things that I did. And those are the three things that had the biggest impact for me. Um, obviously those didn't happen overnight. They were, you know, built skills that were built over the course of months. Um, but those are some, I would call them shorter term strategies that someone can take. Um, to, to apply,

but

it is awesome. Dr. LeGoy, what's your thoughts? I think those are really fantastic strategies. And I think that we can think about, you know, you said, this is just your story, but I think that it has broad, uh, implications, um, are broad, um, broad ways to apply it, right? Applications. Um, I think that something like deciding that you're going to look after your health. So by exercising, by eating well, you're also signaling. To yourself, I'm prioritizing me and I'm prioritizing you, my wellbeing. So if you used to be a person who worked late every night, you were prioritizing work, right? And you're not, you're not prioritizing any of those kinds of things. Now you've said I am doing something for me. Like it takes a little bit of practice, but it is so, I'm important or I can't be myself if I'm not taking care of my needs.

Yeah. Well, so one thing on that, I have the ultimate test. To see if anyone actually does that If you are someone that uses the calendar if you live and die by your calendar I challenge you to open it up. What percentage of the stuff on your calendar is work related and how many things are not work related and how many things are just for you? And I guAddrantee you the vast majority of people, the only stuff on there is work and chores.

For people who are,

there's nothing on there.

That's right. Because you're like, okay, this is important. I need to remember cause I'm going to put it on my calendar. What if I scheduled that meditation time? You know, Okay. Yeah, that's important. I blocked out my calendar. I prioritize that. And I think that I really liked what you said about The meditation and it doesn't need to be done only this way. This is the right way to do it. This is the wrong way, you know, an acceptable way. It's what works for you. Um, making those kinds of techniques accessible. So you might be a person who is, I can't meditate. I can't quiet my brain. And maybe, maybe that's difficult to do now. So what is available? Is a walk outside available to you? Because that's also meditative. If you're looking around and you're paying attention, you're not taking a work call while you're going for a walk, right? Then that can be meditative. Um, so I think making those things accessible and tailoring them to what is available to us and what our needs are, um, is, is so important. Um, rather than trying to do it, The way that we've been told to do. So if I'm not spending 2 hours in yoga every day, then not, I'm not, you know, practicing self care. It's like, no, no, it depends on what I need and what, what fulfills me, what, what response to those needs. And that's going to be a little bit different to all of us, but I think that overall, that the concepts that you raise. Are ones that benefit all of us looking after yourself, taking time to be with yourself, prioritizing those kinds of things is, is really key.

Let me, and I, and he talked about them. So how much those things are great, but what about the self talk as well? Right. Because you were just saying earlier, Matt, I'm the worst dad. I'm not. This right? And then you talked about reprogramming and, you know, a great book I read a long time ago is, um, how to talk to yourself by chat. Chad Helmstead. I think his name was, and he talked about our minds are like hard drives of a computer and it only does what you tell it. Okay, so if and he used a great example, because we're creatures of habit and all of a sudden, let's use Matt's example. Well, you know what? I'm not going to I'm not going to think that way again. Right? And he use it. He comes up with example. Like, you have a apartment of old furniture and you're like, I'm done with this and you take all that old furniture and you put it in the hallway. Right? Now, you sit in an empty apartment. Well, you haven't replaced it with anything. So now you start thinking like, well, that old couch, wasn't that bad. Go grab the old couch and bring it back in. Right. Instead of filling it up with new self talk, right. New things. I'm not a terrible dad. I'm a great dad. I'm not tired. You know, those little things by just saying them over and over again. Believe it or not. So I love to hear you guys's thoughts. Matt, Dr. Legoy. What's your thoughts on self talking?

Yeah, I think the there's a lot of, there are a lot of books. Um, there's actually a really good one called soul for happy. Um, and it was one of the, um, one of the big engineers over at Google, um, he was part of the Google, like, um, uh, like development teams. And he said, you know, I wonder if I could solve for happy, like a math equation, I'm going to do, but there's a whole section around self talk. And the biggest takeaway is recognizing that by virtue of hearing it, the talk is not you. Like, it can't be you because it's talking to you, but it's in your head, so you assume and you associate and identify with it. But being able to sepAddrate and understand that whatever voice is coming in is not your thought. It's a manifestation off of a reaction of something going on. Um, making that disconnection is step one and it's, it's huge. Because then you can actually say, like, all right, I don't need to listen to that. Because that's not me. Um, the, the other part of it, though, is, you know, you need, you need to do the work so that you can counterbalance that potential, you know, one, if you're, if you're doing these correctly, the self talk is not as negative, not as strong, but. Um, you have to do the work to have other values and points of validation in your life that, you know, create all the aspects of who you are. If you're fully associated to one thing, if all you are is work. And then work goes bad, boom, negative self talk is going to take over all day. But if you have, if you're a diversified human being, you know, like a stock portfolio and, you know, you, your priorities are broken up as such, you know, it's hard for anything to latch on to one specific thing. So I think it's, you know, identifying that it's not you and that it is a, it's a reaction to a stress that's coming in. But then doing this, the hard work of, of prioritizing and creating self values that are tied to the things that make up who you are and not necessarily what your output might be. In a professional setting.

That's awesome, buddy. That is Dr. LeGoy anything you want to add to that?

I do think the self talk is so powerful. And, you know, I've had clients that would say, you know, terrible things about themselves. And it's like, oh, that sounds really harsh. I can't imagine you speaking to like your best friend. Like, of course, I would never say that. And if you wouldn't say that to someone that you care about, Then how do we show ourselves at least, at least that same level of care, right? At the minimum, at the minimum. And I think sometimes it's valuable for people to, in order to sepAddrate that voice to understand where it comes from. Oh, that's not, that's not actually the way I feel about myself. That's maybe some criticism I heard when I was a kid. From from that parent. Okay, I'm not a child anymore. I don't that doesn't belong to me. I don't need to hold on to that. What do I need to as you as you both said, what what do I need to replace that with? What is even if you if you, you know, I'm a therapist. Sorry, guys, I'm going to bring it back to childhood. So, you know, if if the question is. What would I have liked to hear from my parent rather than you're not good enough, you know, that's an a minus, where's the rest of the a, like that kind of weird,

what would I

rather have heard? Did you try your best? How do you feel about it? Those kinds of things, right? Sometimes it requires us to reparent ourselves and figure out what that message needs to be to feel good to us, right? Rather than it's, it's much. Both easier and more difficult to keep reclaiming that same old message. I'm finding what you actually need is a little bit more work, but obviously, you know, that's, that's going to be to get us on that path towards feeling better about who we are and what we're doing every day. And that is not related to output. As you said, sometimes people who, you know, are. Achieving the most and seem fine their output. You wouldn't know that's not where you're going to find that fulfillment It's like how do I feel about a person when I wake up in the morning? Do I feel like i'm a good person? I'm working hard. I'm trying to be present for my for my family I'm trying to present work and each day i'm trying and each day i'm working on this, right? That's that's what I think we are seeking and that's where the self talk can be So valuable, you know, we usually talk about self talk as a negative, but it can be so valuable in, in terms of, we're not trying to be delusional about what's happening, but we can say, I'm on a journey and I look at all these steps, I'm taking these steps. To get to get me closer to where I feel like I'm healthy and I'm well and I'm present for everyone around me

Right, right. That is awesome Final question as we close for both of you guys and it's the same question, right? You know, obviously We all know that a lot of people in the workplace, um, deal with these things. Okay. Um, look, I, I, I'm sitting here listening and I'm nodding and, and Matt, you know, I've, I've had some of those situations, right? And I may have some in the future as well, right? Because we're, we're human and we're going to have those emotional ups and downs and stuff. So, I would love to hear from both of you. I'll start with you first, Dr. Legoy. We're going to What is something that, what advice would you give to supervisors at companies that they can help support their team's mental health? So, you know, it does inspire out of controls. I want to hear from you on that. And then Matt, obviously, since you've been in, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. I

think that sometimes when someone's struggling, uh, we sometimes don't say or do anything because we don't know the right thing to say. And I think sometimes it's powerful to acknowledge. You're supervisor of people, right? That doesn't mean that you're a trained therapist. You don't need to have all the answers. You don't need to solve the problem for people. Um, and I think just. Acknowledging that takes a lot of the pressure off and maybe people would be more comfortable going and saying, Hey, you know, is anything going on? Do you want to talk? Or, you know, is there anything that I can do? It's not that. Oh, you should do this. Do you do this? You'll feel better. I need to know that before I go into this conversation with someone. And I think having those kinds of, of open kind of dialogues. Is something that supervisors can do without feeling like they need to know everything, all the next steps. And sometimes I think because, you know, you talked about solving for happiness because you're in that setting where it's like, here's a problem. Let me find a solution. It's it can be hard to to train our brains out of doing that. No, I'm in front of a person. You're not a problem. You're a person. You might be going through some challenges. How do we talk about it? How do we talk about it? We're not trying to solve it. We're not trying to fix you. Right? You're not broken. We're just we're just trying to address what's happening here. And I think that. Normalizing those kinds of conversations can relieve a lot of the pressure because people often think it's not that they don't speak up because they don't care. It's because they don't know what to do. And so they don't want to say the wrong thing and mess you up and all that kind of stuff. So they just don't say anything and they, and they ignore, like, you were talking about Matt, some of those signs or signs. Oh, that's that seems off. You know, I think, yeah, that seems really stressful. They're not acting like anything's fine. They ignore because. It's scary to help in that position, um, to. To say, I see you, you know, and, and I'm here really. And, you know, I think that sometimes that is all that people really need is to know that someone sees them and, and then you're planning a seat, right? You're planning a seat where they're, Oh, you know what, I'm going to stop ignoring that thing that's going on with me. Maybe I will go and talk to someone, you know, so and so said, yeah, you know, they're there, maybe I'll go talk to them. Maybe, you know, maybe we'll go out to lunch and I'll share a little bit about what's going on. Um, I think that removing some of that burden of having the right answers. Um, is something that's really valuable for us to all keep in mind, you know, leaders are not leaders, just as people in life. Um, I think it's really helpful

going, Matt. Go ahead, buddy.

I was gonna say that's so spot on. Like, that's right on exactly, uh, exactly what I would have said. It's, you know, create creating space. And, um, I think that 1 of the. As, as you know, you know, type A individuals tend to move up into more leadership roles because they have the drive and the, and the inner push and being type A also comes with this, um, I can fix every problem. And Dr. LeGoy said, um, perfectly, which is, this is not necessarily a problem to solve. It's just, can you create a space for the. Relief valve so they can just share and speak. Um, I think 1 of the things are 1 of the skills that, um, any manager needs to practice or learn, though, is to understand, expect that everyone's got something going on and. You know, you, you may be shocked, they may share a ton, they may share a little, but you can't necessarily, you have to expect that you're going to hear something and you can't let it impact your opinion, position, or how you treat that person, you know, the whole idea of creating that safe space means that they can share, I mean, within reason, there's, you're not going to share their whole life story, but, um, they can share their inner thoughts and feelings about things going on in the workplace or things that may be troubling them, uh, and they're not going to be judged. Uh, and it's not going to negatively impact, um, you know, their day to day. And once you create that, then, you know, they're going to feel more comfortable to do so going forward and in the future. And, um, yeah, I, I, like I said, I a hundred percent agree. I think it's, it is a different skillset though. I think it is something that as a manager, you need to learn how to create that space, how to, you know, sometimes it's showing vulnerability to earn shared vulnerability. So opening up a little bit yourself so that they feel comfortable opening up with you. Um, and, and that can go a long way. But, um, when we go back to employers, what they can do, you know, that's part of what they can do to help make better managers is giving them resources to train and learn how to, how to create that space. Um, because we're not talking about something that's performance based. It's not like do your job better. It's. Uh, okay, you know, being, um, uh, uh, a human being with a high EQ and how can we do that better?

Right, right. Well, look, I want to thank both of you guys for coming on the Black Executive Perspective podcast to talk about this topic. This is something that transcends race. This is something that every human being goes through. Um, this is something we'll continue to go through as being human beings as we walk the earth. In our journey, but I appreciate you guys providing number 1 being vulnerable and sharing and be an example of the things that you're just get the advice you just gave for managers or leaders to be able to do and not even managers and leaders, even family members. You know, it reminds me of a story. A friend of mine talked about when. He somebody passed away. I think his father passed away. And typically when people pass away, uh, you find a friend, somebody in the family passed away. People are nervous to come around them because they are afraid of what to say. Okay. So they stay away. And I never forgot what he said. He said, listen, you don't have to say anything. Just be there. Okay. And by being there speaks loudly, and it's the support the person needs, you know, so it's the same way in terms of what you guys talked about. We talk about at work issues is. You ain't got to solve it. Just be open to listen. Okay, that's part of being there because just by listening It provides an outlet for that person and they're not dealing with it on their own So I want to thank you both again Stay right where you are because dr. Legoy and matt are going to help us with our call to action But before I think it's now time for tony's tidbit. So the tidbit today Based on what we talked about is this when we speak about our mental health struggles, we're not showing weakness or opening the door for strength. support and understanding to enter our professional lives. And you heard that today from Dr. LeGoy and Matt Schuster. So we want to thank them. And here, the other reminder, don't miss, you know, our weekly segment called need to know by Dr. Nsenga Burton on a black executive perspective podcast, Dr. Burton dives into timely and crucial topics that shape our communion world. You don't want to miss these little tidbits that she's throwing out. It's. every Thursday. So make sure you check out need to know. I hope you enjoyed today's episode discussing, discussing mental health challenges in the workplace. So now it's time for BEP's call to action. As you, as our frequent listeners know, our goal, our mission is to decrease all levels of discrimination. All across the world. So our call to action is called LESS. L E S S. And L stands for learn. So the first thing you want to learn and teach yourself about racial and cultural nuances. Learn about mental health. All different type of things that you're not used to that's going to help enlighten you.

So then E stands for empathize. And that's to understand diverse and different perspectives

is for share, um, sharing your stories to enlighten others, sharing your insights, um, and not being afraid to be open and vulnerable with your story.

Absolutely. Dr. LeGoy and the final S is stop. You want to actively to stop all discrimination as it walks in your path. So if uncle John says something at the Thanksgiving table, that's inappropriate, you say, uncle John, we don't believe that we don't say that, and you stop it right there. So if everyone can incorporate less L E S S, this will help us build a more fair, more More understanding world, right? And more importantly, we'll be able to see the change that we want to see because less will become more. So don't forget to tune into our next episode of a black executive protective podcast, wherever you get your podcast, and you can follow us on our social channels of LinkedIn X, YouTube, Tik TOK, Instagram, and Facebook at a black exec for our fabulous guests, Dr. Patrice. LeGoy. Matt Schuster, co founder of Addra Labs, the greatest protein bar on the planet. Definitely check it out. I'm Tony tidbit. We talked about it. Guess what? We learned about it today. We love you. And guess what? We're out

a black executive perspective.