This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

[00:00:00] Taylor James Pattinson: I don't say this slightly, but I think the podcast actually saved my life.

[00:00:07] Alex Melia: Welcome to Stories of Men Beneath the Surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Performance anxiety is something that can affect us all. From nativity play performances we used to do at school to presenting your quarterly results at a business meeting, there's nothing worse than getting in your own head when all you want to do is just deliver. Taylor's podcast. The Waffle Shop had been doing really well when he decided to throw his first ever live event.

But when he arrived, he wasn't sure he could go through with it.

[00:00:51] Taylor James Pattinson: It, it looked, almost looked very, very corporate. The dressing room I was in and I started to hear the audience arrive. I paced back and forth. It just sounded like. Generic crowd noises that slowly got louder and louder and louder, and as I was hearing that my anxiety was getting higher and higher and higher.

I remember sweating so much and my fist being so tightly kind of clenched. I had sweat patches in places that I didn't think it was possible to have sweat patches. The fear I was feeling, um, was being heavily led by my anxiety. My chest was tight. I felt completely out of control with what was coming next.

I. It was, it was a horrible mindset to be in, but I think the fear was mainly controlled by the failure element of what are people going to think of me? What are, you know, what are the next steps going to be? Following something that I've poured my heart and soul into, but knowing that I had. Over a hundred people expecting something from me in the next few hours and not knowing if I was gonna be able to deliver.

And I think it was, I'd probably go as far as saying it was, it was crippling the fear, the anxiety, and it, I think it all comes down to failure. And then the time eventually came for me to go on stage. And I remember the venue had these kind of double doors that I had to, I had to go through one of them and it was almost like a Holden area.

And my friend who was on stage was kind of hyping the audience up. And then I heard him say, please welcome to the stage Taylor James. And at that point it was almost like I blacked out. It was like something took over me.

[00:02:57] Alex Melia: You are having all these sorts of nerves, this rollercoaster of emotions. How did this show actually go?

[00:03:03] Taylor James Pattinson: Ronan was right when he said it, like, you know, life is a rollercoaster, but in the space of about an hour, I experienced the low, I experienced the high. Do you know what? I think it was a success.

Looking back now, like especially being a part of this, it is made me actually reflect back, like all the anxiety, all the fear out, all the kind of pain was worth it to be in that moment and to be truly present in that moment and being like, I did this. What did you

[00:03:34] Alex Melia: actually talk about? What was the, the purpose of the event and how long was it?

[00:03:40] Taylor James Pattinson: The whole event itself was around two hours long. And I had, um, an element of live music where I'd had people who had been on the podcast before and like the friends that I'd made and the connections, like all be part of this kind of, I guess like a celebration of, you know, something that was born outta such a painful experience for me.

But the main conversations on the night was me waffling on with guests, you know, over things that they've overcome, you know, making sure that people know that. You know, whatever level you are at, we all feel like these very natural emotions, whether it is anxiety, whether it is kind of like depression or whatever it

[00:04:16] Alex Melia: might be.

Yeah. I've spoken to a lot of podcasters in the past and their projects, their podcast in a lot of ways is born outta some sort of pain or some sort of difficult experience they've had in in their life. And I know there's been a lot of challenges I've had in my life and they have served for the, you know, as motivation for the podcast that we do now for stories of men.

What was the pain that you had in your life? So

[00:04:38] Taylor James Pattinson: a few years back, I nearly lost my mom to an operation that went wrong. Um, in the process of kind of coming to deal and to terms with it, I guess it was very much, um, you know, what do I do? It questioned every bit of my masculinity. It was like, okay, well I've kind of always looked after my mom and my sister.

Now all of a sudden I can't do that because the doctors are doing that. So, I had to then take care of my younger sister, get her through her GCSEs at the time. And it was over a period of like nine to 10 months of not knowing if my mom was going to live, being called in, having very serious conversations with doctors, surgeons, rehabilitations.

Um, and it got to a stage one day when I was just like, I don't know if I can do this anymore. I felt. So alone in the situation that I was in, and for some bizarre reason, I thought, do you know what, no, I, I, I deserve more. So I thought, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna talk about it. And I'm still trying to work out why I hit the record button, but I'm so grateful I did, because I think if I hadn't have hit the record button, I, I, I genuinely dunno where I'd be.

I, I don't say this slightly. But I think the podcast actually saved my life. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:05] Alex Melia: It's interesting what you said about it really hit your masculinity for the fact that you have been in this sort of, Uh, position of control and power for looking after your family, looking after your mom, and now you are not the one with medical knowledge, medical experience and skills.

At that point, you have no control over whether, you know, the, the operation that goes for your mom. It's something that you have to just release that control and, and kind of hope for the best, I suppose,

[00:06:33] Taylor James Pattinson: and to be, I, I still struggle with this now, like, and it's been, it's been three years. Um, so. I've always provided, I've always been like the breadwinner at home.

It was always my mom and my sister. So to kind of have that role almost taken away from me, it was like, well, what do I do? Who am I? You know, all of a sudden it was like there was a spotlight. I. On Taylor, 'cause I almost played a character of the family man. Like, you know, I was praised for looking after my mom.

I was praised for looking after my sister that I almost got very caught up in, oh, okay, well that must be who Taylor is. So when all of a sudden I wasn't able to play that role, I didn't have a clue who I was or what I was supposed to do. And I think that kind of played a massive part in. Me spiraling.

[00:07:23] Alex Melia: It's fascinating to talk about this sort of idea of identity because when you're talking about looking after your mother and looking after your sister, that is a massive part of your identity, but it might not have been something that you realize at the time. It's only afterwards. It's only perhaps now when we are speaking that you are realizing, wow, that was really big part of who I thought I was.

You are almost in this no man's land of. Who is Taylor James? I'm not able to look after these people. Now that's outside of my control. Who am I? And you know what?

[00:07:53] Taylor James Pattinson: It's a really odd place to be in 'cause I did the whole thing. Like I went to Thailand, went to Bali, you know, trying to find myself. And I came away probably with more questions.

But when it is that carpet was kind of pulled from me, it, it almost gave me this. Positive feeling of like, well, okay, because all that other stuff happened so naturally and kind of, I was put into those kind of positions like through, you know, some of it through my own kind of doing and through obviously just that genuine kind of wanting to care for my family, especially during the pandemic I had all this time I had.

Nothing to worry about. Everything was out of my control. So I started for the first time ever focusing on what I could control and that was me. You,

[00:08:42] Alex Melia: you, of course, you don't want your family members to go through through hard times. You know about even grandparents dying. That's been a really tough challenge for me because I was so close to grand, my grandparents.

But it definitely allows you to build this sort of sense of resilience, builds your character and yeah, it's just a natural. Process of life. It's,

[00:09:04] Taylor James Pattinson: it's weird 'cause I, I still struggle with this on a daily basis because I'm in this space where now like, because. Quite a lot of good has come from that really painful negative thing that's happen, which is still happening.

Like I still have really, really bad days, especially when if I get a phone call from the Neurological Care home that look after my mom saying like her, you know, her health has kind of been affected or it is dipped, or there's been need to go to hospital. It's almost like I live two lives. It's like I have this life that's, you know, I'm talking to celebrities.

I've got this podcast, you know, which it all sounds great, but deep down I'm just that scared little boy who, who needs his mom. And when the good stuff happens, it's like, It's guilt that creeps in. 'cause it's like, well you wouldn't have this if you hadn't have nearly lost your mom. It

[00:09:57] Alex Melia: is a strange one, isn't it?

Having guilt attached to something that's outside of your control, like with your mother, her, her failing health, and then something really great for you. Is born outta that. I had a real problem probably about 10 years ago with my, my nan dying and being left inheritance. It wasn't a huge amount of money, but I just felt like, oh, I don't deserve this.

Why is this being given to me? I, I don't need, I. Can't spend this on my, on myself. So I paid for, I paid for my family to come out to Hong Kong. Came from a place of like, oh shit, what do I do with this money? Uh, I'll spend it on someone else. I didn't feel like I could spend it on myself, even though perhaps maybe I should have felt like, okay, well my nan really wanted to give me this, otherwise she wouldn't have passed it on.

To me, it's a difficult one, isn't it? It's

[00:10:44] Taylor James Pattinson: weird, isn't it? 'cause it's, it's like we, it's almost like we don't allow ourselves. To feel worthy, like it's the whole self-worth conversation that then creeps in. It's like, well, I dunno if it's just like a motherly thing, but I always feel like they deep down know what they're doing in a weird, messed up way.

So it's like your nan probably left you that money known for well, that you being the person that you are, would. Spend it on other people, but in return you've probably got like a family holiday and like you've made memories from that that you wouldn't have been able to do if it wasn't for that inheritance.

So it's, it is weird. It's, it's, I dunno, I, I wish I had the answer. I think it's just a case of, you know, what's meant to be won't pass you by. Yeah.

[00:11:28] Alex Melia: Well, I, I, thinking about you on a, on a day-to-day basis, is that guilt different now than what it was before? Is it, is it the same as it got worse? How do you deal with that?

It's got

[00:11:37] Taylor James Pattinson: worse. It's in the early days, it was very much like, I don't understand how any of this is happening. I dunno what's going on. And I was almost being kind of like cute about it. Whereas now I'm allowing myself to see the hard work that I've put in the late nights, the, you know, getting outta my comfort zone.

And it's now my mom telling me like, you need to stop using me as. The story, like this part is like, or this chapter is all down to you. It's your hard work that has got you to this point now, I'm not necessarily feeling guilt for the whole situation. I'm feeling guilty that I've given myself such a horrendous time of it, of not seeing kind of what everyone else sees.

But I mean, it's, it's a work in progress and it's something that. I hope to figure out one day, but it's, it's not easy at all.

[00:12:36] Alex Melia: It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. How do I see myself and how do others see me? So who does Taylor James think he is and what does everyone else think?

Taylor James

[00:12:46] Taylor James Pattinson: is, I, I, I think Taylor is someone who is incredibly empathetic, understanding, and would go out of his way. To kind of make sure that someone else was okay before he kind of checked in on himself. Um, I'd like to think my friends would agree with that. And today, it's something that I've learned through the podcast is that I can't control how people view me as long as I'm kind of being myself and kind of.

As long as I'm not being horrible, I guess that's all I can be. I tend not to give too much thought to what other people think of me. 'cause I think through Fairwell, the podcast nearly ended because of that exact

[00:13:32] Alex Melia: mentality. It's, it's difficult because I feel like within myself there's this sort of like massive.

Massive Gulf or massive difference in the way I see myself and the way others

[00:13:42] Taylor James Pattinson: see me. I'm, I'm very grateful of the male friends that I have. Um, because I think since starting the podcast, these conversations have become so much easier to have, especially like if we go out for a pint or some, anything like in those kind of like scenarios, having these kind of conversations of like, The, the fear or I've had a bad week.

Why have you've had a bad week? Not just, we're not just kind of saying it, making a joke out of it and kind of moving on where it's actually, we're getting down to like the nitty gritty as to why we're upset, why this has affected us, why we're feeling anxious or so. The ripple effect it's had is quite powerful.

I've

[00:14:22] Alex Melia: got a friend who says to me, how are you? And not in this sort of like, she'll send me a WhatsApp message, how are you? And met up with her recently and she said, you know what you do know when ask you that question. I'm not just doing as a, oh, how are you, how are you, sort of thing that people say to each other.

But it was a, is with genuine sense of heart and, and intention behind it. Genuinely saying, Alex, how are you? Uh, I do really like that. And I knew she was doing that anyway. But she, I like the fact she wanted to further clarify that it was with a genuine sense of. Wanting to know. You mentioned earlier about you were said about life is a rollercoaster of emotions and it's very much been like that for you because this is sort of up and down, up and down sort of feeling.

But I think it's, it's almost like a, um, a metaphor for life really is the, the kind of the rollercoaster emotions that you go through, but particularly with public speaking, which has always been a massive fear for me, and I always. I'm just kind of similar to you, a sense of like, I've got a fear, I need to just go for it and just do it.

But how difficult was that? And I know you've done future shows as well with the Waffle, uh, waffle Shop. It's not just being that one show in 2022,

[00:15:32] Taylor James Pattinson: I think it was. I. Dapper laughs that said it to me once, that these kind of things, as much as it's a rollercoaster, you are always gonna wanna do it again. It was like, I guarantee like once you've done it, you're gonna want to do it again.

Because it's almost that sense of like, I. I did it and that feeling of like getting through that obstacle or that thing that was gonna be like, this is gonna be the thing that stops me in my tracks. Once you've overcome that kind of obstacle and realize that it's not actually an obstacle, it's a stepping stone to where you're supposed to be.

It can put you in such a powerful place. And that doesn't mean it has to be some big dramatic kind of event, like a, a live show, public speaking, you know, getting out on stage and like singing, whatever it might be. It's about, you know, going, going back to the rollercoaster thing. You have the highs, you have the lows, you have the bit in between.

That kind of creates that anxious feeling of like, what's gonna happen next? But it's about, for me now, especially, Th in life, finding those little moments. Yes. You know, at that start of that kind of the rollercoaster, I didn't think I was gonna get to the end, but now I'm in a position where I can look back at the highs, the lows, you know, the bits in between and be like, do you know what?

At that point, I didn't think I was gonna be able to do it. Now look at me. I did it, and it's not easy at all, but sometimes giving yourself that chance to look back. And be like, do you know what I did it? Giving yourself a pat on the back. Practicing that little bit of gratitude can really be the driving force to take you to where you need to be.

And

[00:17:04] Alex Melia: how have you been feeling about, well, the, the subsequent show afterwards, this sheer 2023, and then future, future things that you do as well. How do you see those things differently to the first

[00:17:16] Taylor James Pattinson: job, especially? 'cause the first one very nearly didn't happen. My mom got taken into hospital three days before.

The event, and the only reason I was doing the event is so that she could see it firsthand. Something that she had helped create. It's like see the positive in the negative. So I planned that live show in the space of three hours before I, I'd set foot on stage and I'm talking visual show notes like segments.

The whole thing in three hours before I went on stage, hence why the pacing backwards and forwards. So it all make, it all kind of makes sense now. But then to be in the position for the second live show and I was very near to kind of walking out on stage and be like, do you know what this is it the, this is gonna be the finale of the Waffle Shop.

And I walked out on that stage and I saw my mom's face. It was one of the first face that I saw. And just seeing the, her smiling at me, I was just like, I've gotta keep going. So I, I dunno what's coming next, but. I think there's a lot of power in looking back at those moments thinking, do you know what I'm excited for?

What's coming next rather than anxious. Yeah. Well,

[00:18:23] Alex Melia: it's, it is, it would be incredible to kind of, if, if you do next, the next 10 waffle shop shows to see how each one has changed. Because even the first show to the second is completely different. And uh, I'm sure there'll be the same sort of thing with, uh, up to the eighth, ninth, and 10th show.

We've obviously been talking about. About you and, and the, the story of your mother throughout the whole way through. But I loved the bit in the story where your friend is there, who's gonna be hosting it with you, comes out at the exact same, same time, and that feeling of, ah, I've got a friend here, I've got a someone else who knows me.

It's such a powerful thing, isn't it, to have. These friends there with us by our size at the most difficult times. I think about difficult sort of challenges I've had in my life and having those friends around you just makes a massive world

[00:19:12] Taylor James Pattinson: of difference. It made me feel safe, almost straight away, and it's, it is.

Even what's even more bizarre about that situation is that was the first time I'd actually ever met. Um, Emma is her name. So we connected through the podcast, like we kind of championed each other and it got to a stage where like, I wanted kind of like the people who helped me get to that point be a part of the show.

So I just felt safe in that moment knowing, even though I'd never met her before, but we, I mean, we spoke pretty much daily and just being like, This is exactly where we're both supposed to be. And you know, I'm very grateful for the friends and the connections that I've kind of made on this journey because I think it goes, it plays a massive part in this version of Taylor that now exists.

And I look back at that kind of version of Taylor when I pulled up to that venue and how scared I was to be at this point now like a over a year later. With a kind of even wider kind of network of people and support. It's the, I, I dunno. It's, I dunno, I'm kind of realizing it as I'm having this conversation, but like the sky's the limit.

This kind of thing. And as long as you're, you know, you surround yourself with the right people and you know you are open, you're honest, and you are, you continue to like be yourself. Like, yeah, you can do anything.

[00:20:45] Alex Melia: One of the things I notice as a recurring theme from speaking to a lot of podcasters is the fact that they use this medium as a form of therapy for anything and everything that's going on in. Their lives. And as I came to think of it, this is true for me too, especially during the pandemic when I was starting out with the podcast, when I was able to air my thoughts and feelings on things in a time when I wasn't able to meet up with friends as much as I wanted to.

Having a podcast allowed me to fulfill this need. I had to be seen and heard, and it's not something I would've wanted to admit to before. This is a need that I realized I craved whilst doing counseling, and now when I say. Craving this need to be seen and heard. I don't mean putting up videos and photographs, selfies of myself up on social media and saying, Hey, everyone, look at me.

But I mean more in the sense of feeling like I had something of value to offer to people and the kind of guests that I could get to come on the podcast to share their stories and how they felt. However, what's really interesting for me is, Not realizing that I had this need. When I first started out doing podcasting, it was not something I was consciously aware of and it was in the back of my mind.

It was only when I started doing counseling and my counselor started asking me these, the the why train of why, why, why asking three why's really revealed a lot about what I wanted, and I've always just loved stories and wanting to get those stories out to other people about the things that my friends were telling me.

And the other men I met in different walks of. Life. I thought this needed an audience. This need is something that I've realized comes from the fact that I felt that I didn't have that when I was a child, and maybe a lot of you feel that too. And it makes me think, isn't this true for everyone? That we all want to be seen and heard in some form, maybe some more than others?

How does this apply to our lives in the way that we think and the way that we see things? When I realized I wanted to be seen and heard, I also talked about my fear of public speaking, and I've had this since being a child. It was about learning when to listen to this fear and when to ignore it, with the latter being the most important when you're thinking about doing something big.

I felt similar things to Taylor when doing public speaking or doing some kind of speech. When you get your first few sentences out, after that, it's plain sailing. From there, it's just about getting started, getting that laugh, getting that acknowledgement from the crowd, and then you're good to go. We just can't do big things without our friends and without our network this long.

Wolf mentality will only get you so far. And I've realized that to my detriment over the years, Taylor's event would've been nowhere near as successful without that encouragement, without the support of his network, friends and family, no matter how much sometimes we think we can do it all by ourselves.

Lastly, check out Taylor's award winning Mental health and music podcast, the Waffle Shop. You can find the link in the description.