All right, Scott Zimmerman, welcome back to the

QVC podcast. Really lovely to see you again.

Yeah. Beautiful warm day here. Sun's coming

through.

Beautiful. Where are you again? Remind me.

New Jersey. We had 13 Saturdays of rain.

Oh, I was gonna say, I have a beautiful warm day

here. I'm just across. I'm just across the river

in New York. We're right near the Tappan Zee.

Ah.

So I have your weather. It is gorgeous. And yeah,

it's the rain. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So sun's

out. We're in a good mood.

Yeah.

All right, so I, I'm really happy to have you

back. I love how you explain things and your

energy and your dedication to, like, all this

craziness that we're all trying to understand.

So, as I mentioned, I was. I want to start with

this post that you wrote recently. And I know

it's part of something bigger which you can tell

me about, but it was. There's some very. There's

some sentences in here that I'd love to unpack

with you. I think they're just like, super

helpful. So. Okay, so I'm just going to start

reading. This is what you wrote on LinkedIn.

There are, there are dozens. There are dozens of

ways to quantify sunlight. And it matters how we

present the data because it can mislead, hide, or

enlighten. The impact of sunlight on the rapid

increases in metabolic diseases is best

illustrated using photons per second per area,

per energy unit.

You know.

Tell me, tell the English major what we're

talking about here.

Well, you know, you can, you can put, you have a

bunch of things and you can put them in different

bins and depending on how big the bin is, the

number they'll go in and how. So you, you have

this way. And so we present data are the solar

spectrum in a certain way, usually in watts per

meter squared per degree per nanometer, the

irradiation as a function of wavelength that

makes this nice little peak where right in the

visible. And everybody looks at it. And then you

see the infrared, it goes way down and it looks

like it's almost trivial. Now I can take that

exact same solar spectrum and I can reorient it

or re bin it into what matters to the body, which

is how much energy, how many photons are in a

particular energy band. Okay, Think about it like

a solar cell. You know, a solar cell. The solar

cell guys have these. Build these cells that have

band gaps. So within the band gap, photons that

have that energy can do generate an electron.

Okay. Photons that don't have that energy, don't

generate an electron. Well, a similar type

thing's going on in the body. We have all these

enzymes and activations and barrier energy

barriers that are used to regulate how the body

works. You know, it's not like you have this.

Everything's just a wide open wild west and

everybody's everything. Every chemical reaction

is happening time. We have very controlled ways

that we go through various. Whether it be the

electron transport chain, whether it be immune

response, all these things are controlled using

enzymes and various other things and light to

essentially make us live and be healthy. When we

start getting things out of whack is when we are

unhealthy. And so all I was trying to show was is

that if you put it in terms of electron volt

energy, which we call electron volt, that's the

amount of energy it takes to move an electron

through one volt of potential. And you know, it

has a certain amount of energy. If we reorient or

re. Graph. These are, these are not really graph.

These are hit what they call histograms. Okay.

And I'm sorry, it's getting a little deep, but

bottom line is you can put it in the right bins

that matter to the body, which is in, like I say,

photons per second. You know, when you talk about

quantum, we always talk about photons. Well, now

you need to also talk about electrons. And that's

in electron volts. So these photons are, if we

show it in a manner that is more applicable to

mitochondria, all of a sudden you get this peak

at 0.75 electron volts, which is about 1600

nanometers. Now I was talking, I found this from

the solar cell guys. And I was talking to Bob and

I said, bob, what's this peak? And Bob says,

well, everybody knows what that peak is. That's

the hydrogen minus ion opacity window in the sun.

And I said, not all of us knew that that was what

was going on. But it turns out that there is a

particular energy band coming from the sun that

in that band there are more photons released by

the sun because they're allowed to escape from

deeper in the atmosphere of the Sun. And this is

well known to astronomers, but not well known to

me and not well known to any biologist that I

know of. But it turns out that it is an

opportunity. And it appears based on how the body

has adapted over billions of years and life forms

have adapted, that that's an optimum region that

where most of the activation energies associated

with biology actually occur. Is it a coincidence?

Maybe it's a coincidence, but it looks like it's

actually intentional. So essentially there's this

region in the infrared where that aligns very

well with what is going on on a biological level

as far as the amount of energy it takes to get

you to move an electron in the electron transport

chain or any of these other biological processes.

And to see that changes your, in my opinion,

changes your entire perspective as to what's

important in sunlight. You know, it doesn't mean

that you don't need sunlight to see, it doesn't

mean you don't need UV to do, to make vitamin D

and all the steroids. But in the infrared, and

this is not the near infrared, this is farther

out in the infrared, there's a kind of like this

merger or this coincidence of what sun provides

and what we need biologically as far as energy

levels. And when we talk about quantum, then you

get into this issue of. It's very well understood

that photosynthesis and electron transport chain

is a quantum process. Okay. What happens is, is

the electron, there are a series of barriers in

the electron transport chain. And either through

enzymes or just general mobility of the molecules

or sunlight, that that electron is allowed to

jump that barrier, generate some protons that

help that, and goes through a series of these

steps. Those steps are all in this region as far

as energy levels. And so it appears that from

everything we're looking at, that literally

sunlight doing a process called, and you can look

it up as photon assisted quantum tunneling is

essentially allowing us to be more likely for

that electron to jump and therefore generate a

little bit more ATP, more efficiently generate

ATP, which is, agrees with Glenn's data, where

he's shining some longer wavelength light. And it

doesn't have to be any particular wavelength, it

can be a lot of different wavelengths. And all of

a sudden the ATP production efficiency goes up,

CO2 levels drop, are increase as well. So we know

that that is, so we have done something with

light to enhance the efficiency of, of the

electron transport chain.

Wow. Okay, so. Oh, so cool. Okay, so cool. So

I've a couple of things. One, I'm hearing that

what you're talking about is a framework for

looking at sunlight as an energy source for

biology as opposed to the traditional way of

looking at it.

Excellent assessment. Yeah, better than I do. I

appreciate that.

And then second of all, if we lack, if our

biology lacks exposure to this specific bandwidth

that you're talking about, we, we can't live.

Well, I wouldn't say you can't live. I mean,

that's what's so beautiful about how you got

energy from the sun coming in from this

direction. Higher energy, lower energy, you've

got our basic surroundings. Our body is sitting

here at a temperature and our surroundings are at

a temperature that's enough to where it kind of

gets into the same region. But it appears based

on looking at it now from this different

perspective, that there is a huge advantage

associated with bringing in these lower energy

photons. Because bear in mind, you know, if

you're looking at the electron transfer chain,

it's a less than a volt or electron volt or the

energy level is fairly low and they do a series

of hopping in order to get from, from one

potential level down to another potential level

and generate the protons. So and those protons

then drive the ATP production. But it is pretty

clear from what we're looking at is that there is

a role that sunlight plays in enhancing the

efficiency of which you make ATP and therefore

taking that away and only putting us in these

dark environments. The modern cave that we have

where it's all high energy photons in

perspective, we're talking about 0.75 electron

volts in down here where we're talking about

going on with the electron transfer chain. We're

talking about, when we look visually it's three

to two, two to three electron volts. So much

higher energy. So if they come in and they get

involved in the process they generate, they, they

can definitely kick the electron up over the

barrier. But they also, the excess generates a

lot of reactive oxygen species. So.

Okay, and when that is happening, when we, our,

our light sources are mostly artificial and

inside and we're not outside enough or is that.

Well, no, it's happening when you're outside. But

what it, what it appears to be happening is, is

that the higher energy photons are being used for

important features. You need the, the uv, which

is about three to four electron volts to generate

the things we need for vitamin D, for steroids,

for cortisol, all these things. So we need that

to happen. But that process is very energetic and

damaging. You can get sunburned, you can get all

this kind of stuff, then you drop down into the

visible and we need that to be able to see. But

again it has enough energy to break bonds and do

things that are negative. And then you get into

the near infrared and you start to see beneficial

versus harmful. Still need these functions to go

on up here, but they're in. The farther we get

down, closer we get to the energy levels that are

being used in things like the electron transport

chain, the more, the less reactive oxygen species

being generated and the more efficient we are at

generating ATP and other things.

Okay, so how does that translate into what we

should do like optimally so to expose ourselves

to this window that all the astronomers knew

about with the peak and the energy cell, the

solar cell guys know about with the peak, but the

biologists have no idea, even though what you're

saying is that it's of crucial for optimal

functioning of biology. So when is that?

Well, I guess what I'd say is when we're at the

body is obviously designed under the assumption

that we're exposed to a broadband emitter. Okay,

okay.

What do you mean by broadband emitter?

Broadband sunlight, moonlight fire,

incandescents, things like our light bulbs, you

know, those type of things. Even the thermal

vents down in the bottom of the ocean are

broadband thermal emitters. And they follow more

like a Planckian type response. Okay. Which

means, not to be fancy, it just means that it's a

large number of wavelengths. Everything from UV

all the way down into the far infrared. Okay,

okay.

So we're getting across the spectrum.

Across the spectrum.

All right. And that's what we need.

And that's what we need. That's what the bodies

are developed for. When you start parceling it up

and you start. There is no place in nature other

than, as Bob would say, well, the auroras are

narrow band. Well, yeah, they're pretty, but

they're not the main thing that bother us all.

But every other light source that we are exposed

to has emitter is broadband. I mean, when I say

broadband, it goes from UV all the way out to the

far infrared. And so what appears, based on the

stuff we're seeing, is that, you know, we need

these higher energies to do things like crack the

cholesterol down to where we can make the stuff

we need for vitamin D. Have to have that. But

it's a process that is very energetic. And as you

know, you can get a sunburn fairly easily,

especially you and me. So the point is, is that

the other part, the longer wavelengths are there

to deal with the fact that we have these, have to

have these other higher energy photons involved

in the process, you know, and if you don't, then

you get more like what we're seeing now, the

astronauts, the submariners. I mean, if you look

at some of the hostages that were held down in

tunnels for a year without any sunlight, you see

what's happening. It's degrades you know, we need

the spectrum, the characteristics of sunlight to

be healthy. And unfortunately, that's becoming

less and less a part of our lives. You know,

people will sit in, in dark rooms with the TV

blaring away. That's just providing them with

visible light, the incandescent lighting, the

window, blocking all the things we're doing for

blocking energy, then the air, infrared from

coming into houses are all degrading the balance

that nature provides. And it's very clear, you

know, I'm still totally on the near infrared, but

I'm saying that what we're. Every time we move

out a little further in the spectrum to longer

and longer wavelengths, we're finding out that

the body has a lot of stuff that it's doing with

it that we don't even understand. And one of the

problems, the fundamental problem to start the

whole process is we keep on showing the solar

spectrum in terms, in the wrong terms, units of

measure. And as soon as you do that, and I don't

know if, you know, I don't think you have the

graph to put up, but what Bob did is he showed it

and showed the relationship between when you

start putting in an electron volts and how that

kind of just perfectly marries up with what we

see as the average activation energy of

biological processes. And so to me, it's the most

fundamental, amazing thing I've ever seen. As far

as, you know, it's clear that over billions of

years our biology was moving closer and closer to

this peak that had a little extra energy. And it

provides, it provides that extra energy in the

form that we feel alive during the day, we get

sleepy at night when it goes away. You know, it's

not that complicated. I don't think. It's just,

you know, convincing everybody that they need to

get outside a little bit and go to bed when it's

dark, you know?

Yeah, no, the practical application is incredibly

simple. Yeah, go outside in the day, open a

window, have lighting that's as close to

broadband emitter as possible, and sleep in the

dark when it gets dark.

I mean, it used to be that was the norm. And

people, you know, would go off to sanitariums to

get more light and get more fresh air and get

more, you know, good food. And now we've kind of

created this about the opposite environment where

you can't have this. You're not providing the

full spectrum to the. And I would argue that,

that it's, it's even worse than that because

we're talking about two very different balancing

act that's going on in the body. It needs these

to counter the other when you introduce just one.

I did some bio sweat sensor measurements and we

were looking at cortisol and it was amazing that

you could sit in a dark room with a TV on 10 lux,

just a basic sitting in front of TV and the

cortisol was spiking all through that time.

Melatonin was kind of suppressed all through that

time. So I think that, you know, there's an

argument to be made that it's not just that we

should do this because it's more healthy, we

should get rid of what we're doing or at least

try and add some, some infrared back in to

everything, because not having it is creating

harm. And that's my biggest concern. With all the

metabolic diseases. One of the reasons that we're

doing what we're doing is that metabolic diseases

are all linked into the electron transport chain

and the ATP production. And it's very clear that

the longer wavelengths are a positive

reinforcement of that, making it more efficient.

More efficient. The ATP is the healthier you

basically are. And you know, so. So I think that

getting it in the right terms and looking at how

biology and sunlight are mixing together, we're.

I guess one of the analogies that's used is that

we're kind of like this battery system and we

charge up and that gets the, you know, as Glenn

shown with his experiments, you know, just as

short exposures can have a beneficial effect over

a longer time frame because you're essentially

making the ATP, the electron transport chain,

more efficient and maybe even adding in more

units into the, into it to where it's just

operating at a better level, taking it away.

With that in that infrared exposure.

Right. Okay.

And just to touch what you were saying earlier

about how UV is, on the one hand, extremely UV

exposure is necessary and important. On the other

hand, it does cause damage. So on a sort of like

a practical basis, you know, what I notice

personally is if it's. I'm outside on a hot

summer day, direct sunlight on my body feels

really good for, I don't know, let's say 20, 25

minutes, and then I kind of get, I get the

inclination to go in the shade.

Yeah.

And that's. Is that sort of what we're talking

about, like just keeping that balance and even

the shade and being outside is still having all

those positive effects you described, especially

on the body's optimization of ATP production.

That's still happening.

Yeah, I mean, I think that. And we're going to

find more and more of these biological processes

that affect the immune system, that affect

neurological. I mean, you feel, you said, I feel.

Well, yeah, because your brain is basically

having some response to making you feel a

particular way. I mean, and, you know, we started

this out just doing the optics of looking at

where light goes in the body. But now what we're

finding is, is that, you know, it's not just

where it goes, it's also what it, you know, a

number of the wavelengths have very localized,

are absorbed very strongly. There's a picture I

put in the link at Lincoln Post here at least

recently, where, you know, we all have black skin

and white hair in the longer wavelengths. And

that means that the body is trying to absorb

those photons preferentially and using them for

something in particular. It looks like immune as

a pathogen barrier is one possibility, but, you

know, in general, you need all the different

components working together in unison rather

than. We have this tendency as a scientist to do

reductionist experiments even. Glenn's experiment

was done at 670 nanometers. Another one's at

1064. That's not what's happening in the body.

When we're outdoors, we're getting all those

wavelengths together. Some are going deeper in

the body, some are localized on the surface. And

as we move into shade, then it shifts it to more

into the infrared, then the visible and the UV

gets absorbed more strongly by the leaves and our

surroundings. So there's a shift in that general

balance, but there's always something to counter

the other. Unfortunately, that's not what we do

now. I mean, we have said, okay, we only need

from 400 to 650nm to see, to read, therefore.

So that's. Oh, that's what our light bulbs were

like. Just that?

Just that.

But our biology was designed for, as you said,

the broadband emissions, all of.

It, 250 out to 6,000 nanometers. I mean, we are

talking less than 10% of the spectral content of.

Is what we expose our children to every day. And

they don't get out getting what the wire. You

know, especially in urban areas, it's very

difficult. I understand it is. I mean, if you're

in prison, you got. They got real problems. And

you know, and hospitals are terrible. I mean,

they're probably about the worst place you could

go as far as this aspect of life. But we know

very strongly that ATP efficiency and ATP

production is a very good marker of health. I

mean, if you have, if you're operating at a high

level of ATP production and health or and

efficiency, then it's a beneficial condition as

far as our health is concerned. And all I'm

saying is is that we started out, you know, just

to give you a framework. UV starts here around

280 nanometers, goes down to about 400 some odd

nanometers for when we start to see. 650 is what

we mostly cut off for the LEDs. Near infrared

runs from 650 out to about 1100 or 1000

nanometers. This other infrared, the shortwave

infrared and minute infrared runs out to 6,000

nanometers. And while the energy level of the

photons may be less, less at the longer

wavelengths, they appear to be more appropriate

to do things with biology because those are the

energy levels that we, that the body is using to

regulate all our processes. You know, other than

seeing and generating, like I say, the uv, the

majority of our bodily processes, the entire

electron transport chain has a series of barriers

that are less than an electron volt, are pretty

close to electron volt, which is, you know, very

small amount of energy. You can come in with a

big, heavy, big high energy boost and you'll have

an effect, but you're going to also generate some

level of damage associated with it. So, you know,

like I say, and we've only gone to six that we

still don't quite understand, even the longer

wavelengths than that. And really, it's almost

like a fundamental problem with science. If you

can't measure it, it's hard to understand it, you

know, and.

Yeah, well, it's almost like if you can't measure

it, it doesn't exist.

Yeah, well, I mean, kind of what.

The sense I get from, from the measures. Yeah,

the people who measure.

Yeah, that, that, that is what the, the problem

we ran into. When you look at light, sunlight,

the solar spectrum in terms of watts, then it

looks like there's nothing useful going on down

at the bottom. And so what do we do? We use that

as, okay, that doesn't matter. It's just heat.

We're going to only make 400 to 650 nanometers.

Now what's happening? Everybody's getting these

little spectrometers and they're, they're silicon

spectrometers. Well, they only measure out to

about 900. And yet people look at and say, oh,

look at this, I got some, some, some power out

here at the 900 nanometers. Yeah, well, what

about 2000? What about 6000? What? And, and, but

people have their meter and they read their meter

and you say, okay, put it up to an incandescent

light bulb. Well, it does. This goes down. No, it

didn't. Incandescents go up all the way out to

about 2 to 2000 nanometers. But, you know, but

their meter, but.

The instrument of measurement has no capacity. So

it just looks like it goes down.

Yeah, I mean, look. And so. So people make a

judgment. Oh, we added near infrared. No, you

really didn't add that much near infrared. You

know, if you're outside and you're in the shade,

for every watt of optical watt of visible,

there's three or four times that in the infrared,

and that's the balance. So, you know, in our

light sources, we design them to have three to

one because of some of the work I did. But that's

in.

In the light bulbs that you make.

Yeah, because, you know, the point was, is that

people who have very dark skin in particular,

need more near infrared content. In my opinion,

children need more near infrared content because

that's kind of the good stuff. And we got rid of

the good stuff and put it in with the bad stuff.

And then we're surprised that all of a sudden

there's some issue. And how bad is it? You know,

10, 20 years from now? You'll figure that all

out, unfortunately. But we do know that, I think

we have been going through a grand experiment

where we have taken away all the incandescents,

blocked all the near infrared from coming in, and

we have these metabolic diseases. I know they

want to talk about processed food, they want to

talk about a lot of other things, but sunlight

has always been the largest energy input into the

body forever. And, you know, the fact that we

have now filtered that down to such a narrow

portion that it's not causing a problem, I think

is absurd. I mean, you know, I would say that the

high, though, there's a much higher likelihood

that the effect of our lighting systems and our

architecture is bigger than any food, processed

food. There's tons of different diets out there.

You know, people eat all kinds of things and

survive just fine. But this is almost like on a

global basis, we're having this huge shift, and

it's so the antithesis of what we really know

from a logic standpoint. You know, 1800s, people

were going into sanitariums and places like that

to get over TB and other diseases, because what

they do, they got in more sunlight, got in more

fresh air, got in higher altitude, breathing

better. You know, the idea that sunlight isn't a

primary factor in what we're seeing for all these

Modern society, diseases. I mean, all we're doing

is, is going and showing. Hey, there's a

mechanism. Yes. You know, here's a mechanism and

that makes. I love your cat, by the way.

That's Puck.

Yeah.

We call it the infidel. Yes. So the mechanism.

Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, that's really the,

the. If you can show a mechanism, then people can

start to quantify it. And you know, I'm hopeful

that what's going to happen is once we get some

more of these biosensors out there, that people

are going to start looking for themselves and

finding out whether or not, you know, how much in

the sun they need to be in order to really feel

good about themselves.

Right. Which is where measuring is very helpful

because when people see that data like, oh, I'm

in front of my TV and my blood sugar plummets and

oh, I go outside and things stabilize. I just one

quick thing on the, on the processed food. Yeah,

what I, what I, here's my. I, here's my ideal

near future vision. Is that the, the way that we

are understanding processed food right now and

the huge push, especially in the United States,

it's been going on other place in Europe for

longer to really get the general population to

understand how bad it is to eat ultra processed

food as the mainstay of your diet. If we can then

translate that understanding into a paradigm

shift that sees light as an equal input into our

body on like on par with food, maybe we have a

chance of reframing. And as, as you were talking

about earlier, we need to reframe the way we

think about the sun with the way we measure the

outputs of the sun. If we can reframe the way we

think about light from just something that we

need to see to an essential life source, food

source for our body, just in a different form.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a good way to

do it. I mean, essentially, you know, the

ability, our ability to operate optimally is

under attack at the present time. You know, and

I, we, it's not just the emitters that we've

done. It's also a lifestyle shift that we've made

where, you know, kids don't go outside and play.

Yeah.

Kids don't go to. Everything is a more of a

organized indoors under artificial lighting, you

know, and the kids last thing the kid sees is

before he goes to bed is a screen that has no

infrared content. So over time, like I say, all

we're trying to do is highlight the different

mechanisms and it's been this progression of, we

started out invisible, added some near infrared.

Then we got to the point we figured out that

there's now this longer wavelength stuff going on

and we still have half the solar spectrum to go.

Basically we're really seeing stuff at, you know,

we got out to 3,000 nanometers, we gotta get out

to six before we actually include all the stuff

that's going on from sunlight. And the idea that

nature hasn't optimized to take advantage of of

all those different energy sources is just

counterintuitive. You know, that's what nature

does because that's called survival. The entity

that can actually take advantage of something and

get an advantage over another one is going to win

the battle. And you know, and I just find it

really fascinating that it's not something that

we have the biologists over here, as you were

talking about silos, it's an enzyme, it's a

chemical reaction, it's all this other stuff. The

optics guys are over here saying, oh, we're

changing, you know, this, that and the other, you

know, biology thing. They're not talking to each

other hardly at all. You know, and the more we

find out. All I was trying to show is that, you

know, we've got this huge amount of energy

associated with sunlight that can be good or bad

for biological processes. And then you've got the

normal biology guys coming together and they're

meeting at this, just happened to be meeting at

this point. 75 EV. That is a unique situation

associated with the sun itself. And I just think

it's fascinating and fundamental in what's going

on and, but you need both sides of the parties to

give a little so that we can get, to get to the

truth, I guess is what I'd say.

Yeah, you know, it's such a, like, it's just so

fascinating from a civilizational perspective

that, you know, we can have these incredible

human intelligences hyper focused in a certain

area and be so incredibly well versed and deeply

understand that little area, but be still

completely missing the bigger picture. And we

seem to lack any kind of society level framework

for pulling out and linking all these things

together. Even recently the magazine Scientific

American had a cover, the Sunlight Cure. It was

all about how sunlight is good for us and UV

light is good for us. And then they'd have this

one paragraph where the scientists were like,

yeah, but we don't understand the mechanisms yet.

And I'm like, you guys gotta go talk to Scott.

There are people who understand the mechanisms.

Go talk to Dr. Frederick Guy. But they hadn't

looked yet. So as far as they were concerned, the

mechanism is not understood.

Yeah, and it's a shame because we do know a lot.

We know an awful lot. And it's such a perfect

opportunity. This is like the watershed moment,

in my opinion, from the standpoint of the

biologists and the quantum biologists to get

together, because this is coming down to quantum

levels and it is. And people get scared by that.

But I mean, a simple thing is to go back to the

unit measure rather than talking about Watts,

talk about photons per second. It's now a

quantized event. And it matters how many of those

photons, what energy level they are and what the

density of them in the body is being absorbed and

how that is coupling into our biological

processes. It doesn't have to be coherence and

all this other stuff. In my opinion, it will

start out with something simple. I got a chunk of

energy, it goes here in the body, and it helps

this process work better or doesn't help this

process work better. And you know that those

mechanisms we can do, we can model them, we can

put them together. And what I put in that, the

equation, the one, the simple little equation in

there on photon assisted quantum or quantum

tunneling, you know, it sounds really spooky, but

at some level there is a probability that small

little things like electrons, and this is what I

think is just so cool, is that the mass of the

particle determines and the barrier and the width

of the barrier all determine the probability of

an electron moving through a barrier. Now, we use

barriers in our biology to time when things

happen and how big of an event they are. Now, the

fact that we can provide a photon to that region

and add in a little bit more energy so that the

electron can jump that barrier and a little bit

more efficiently, efficiently generate a proton,

which then makes the turbine spin, you know, is

all occurring on these scales that you have to

start talking about quantum effects. And they're

not that great. It doesn't have to be that

complicated. You know, literally, there's a great

paper done out of the Guy Foundation. Nathan, I

forget his last. I think Booth, I'm not sure.

Anyway, showing water molecules, and he's

modeling what happens when an electron hits that

water molecule. And what it show was able to show

is that he could actually it affected the

molecule beside, it made it a little bit more

excited. It then made this one over here a little

bit more excited. And before long, the electron

popped out on the other side, you know, and so we

know that water is doing all these amazing things

in the body. We keep it, you know, we came out of

the ocean and we carried our water with us,

essentially. And in this region that we're now

looking at, Bob and I are now looking at, water

is the main absorber. It is the chromophore. It

is actually what's doing, absorbing the photon

and moving it around, making things work. And

it's. You think about like a. A whole big, you

know, one of those plague again gyms where they

got all the balls in them, you know.

Yeah.

And the kid jumps into the, into the thing and,

and the balls move, but they. Some of them move

quite a ways away from them because it depends on

how they all interact. So, I mean, what sunlight

is really doing, in my opinion, is taking and

charging up the battery a little bit, but really

generating an environment where electron

generated by the food we eat, whatever is more

likely to jump the barrier and get a proton

generated to generate a little bit more ATP and

do that with the least amount of the most

efficient way, I guess I'd say so that, that's

kind of what I think of it. But I guess I also

like play gyms, so. And trampoline.

The ball pits are always. Yeah, I love it. And

yes, I think, you know, when you explain it like

that, it, it just makes it so obvious that we

need to be talking about biology on that level,

on that, that quantum biologic level and not just

the biochemical level or what. Whatever else

we've been doing. It gets just so clear. It.

Yeah, we just need you. We need all you guys to

have like, megaphones.

No, you know, it's why, it's why, why, you know,

it's like Glenn, he's started out and he was

doing the. All the experiments on the bees and

the insects. And, you know, that's the other

thing that I wish people would really understand.

Get rid of your LED lights. Outdoors, we are

doing a number on insects in particular, because

if you look at optically, all the energy going

into the insects are so small that they are

essentially exposed to all the wavelengths at

once. You know, we got kind of, we're big enough

to where some of the near infrared gets down in

deeper, but we kind of have this outer shell type

thing going on where most of the energy is

absorbed on the outer surface skin. Why our skin

replaces every 21 days, blah, blah, blah. But

insects are so much the canary in the coal mine

on this whole thing. And I think that we're

totally underestimating the impact we're having

on our health by the standpoint of what we're

doing to the insect population. I grew up in

Kansas. You know, when I was growing up, you

drove. Drive down the road, you got grasshopper

all, you know, clean the windshields. All that

hardly ever happens anymore around here, it seems

like, you know, I was watching fireflies last

night out there, and there's not near as many as

I remember some of the other places. So I. You

know, it's just. I think that we need to get a

little bit more serious about what we're doing to

the environment. But in general, what Glenn's

been doing is he started out with the insects,

then he went into looking at cells, and then he's

moved his way up into mice. And now he's doing

basically all his experiments on humans and

exposing them to various things and seeing, you

know, his latest. Some of his latest stuff is

that, you know, he took and replaced the LED with

an incandescent. And then he also did an 850

nanometer type exposure. And he was looking at

color contrast in the eye. And this was just.

There's still LEDs up here on the ceiling.

There's just an incandescent desk lamp there

where people are working and all that other

stuff. And in less than a week, he was able to

Show a significant 20% degradation in their color

contrast, ability to differentiate colors, which

is. Glenn's. One of the world's experts on these

things.

Okay, sorry, walk me through this again. So this

is Glenn Jeffries. So he started. He. He looked

at the impact of narrow. The narrow spectrum on

insects. Now he's moved to humans. And so he

found that people's ability to differentiate

color was degraded by working under LEDs in a

matter of weeks. Maybe in a matter of weeks now

doesn't mean.

Yeah, I mean, all we're doing here is generating

all these different biomarkers. You know, it's.

You know, the body is dealing with thousands and

thousands of different reactions at the same time

simultaneously. So what do we do? We run an

experiment. Glenn's running an experiment. What

he showed is that there is a huge difference,

even the 850, while it helped a little bit on

some of the color contrast, it was really the

incandescent that he saw, the big change. And I

would argue if he could actually do a controlled

experiment with sunlight, you would actually see

improvement even further.

So when an incandescent bulb was added, even

though the led, the ceiling lights were still on,

there was an improvement?

Yeah, the biggest improvement that he measured.

Wow. So LEDS alone. People's eyesight got worse.

Yep.

Almost immediately you add in an incandescent

bulb and it got better.

Yeah. And you know, like I say, crazy.

Yeah, this is crazy. No one knows this and that.

The thing is, is that's one experiment with one

biomarker.

Yeah.

We could, if we could pull up. I mean I'm sitting

here and I'm showing that cortisol levels are,

are spiking on a couple minute intervals. I mean

one of the things I'm going to be another,

another thing that's coming out in this, what I'm

doing is I'm doing a series of four part session

on Bob's work and some of my work that we're

going to be posting that I posted two of them on

so far LinkedIn, there's been some more. But

literally everybody thinks of circadian and the

effect of light on their health as being this

kind of gradual. You know, in the morning you

have high cortisol, low melatonin, then you go

down, in the evening you should have low

cortisol, high melatonin and that's. It does that

in general. But again it's another measurement

thing. The sensor I have measures every three

minutes. Okay. Everybody else is measuring every

four hours or a day or whatever. Just picking a

pot. When you start doing, looking at it, at it

at a high sampling frequency in minutes, what you

find is that cortisol spikes when we eat, when we

do vacation, when we do exercise, when we watch

tv, you have this huge spike. Well, melatonin

actually has a spike too in response. If the

cortisol gets too high, all of a sudden out of

nowhere you see this huge spike in melatonin and

a drop in TNF alpha, which is a cancer marker. So

you know, because the melatonin is essentially

suppressing that cancer marker. So there's so

many different mechanisms that are being affected

by our exposure to light, what we eat. I mean

it's all coming together. You know I, we were, my

wife and I went out to a Mexican restaurant and

using and I had the sensor on and you know, you

don't see it at the time. That's one of the

intentions is you don't want to actually in got

to trick the data or whatever. But literally you

could see the appetizer, then you could see the

main course, then you can see it going up and I

had a time.

I don't know if I want that level.

What.

Did you have dessert?

No, I didn't, I didn't show up either. But you

Know, but then all of a sudden you get this very

narrow 10 minute window of melatonin spiking up

and the cortisol drops because melatonin

suppresses cortisol. So we've got.

So what's, what's triggering the melatonin?

Good question. I have no idea. It's, it's part of

our control system. There are, there's.

So it just is like, I got it. The melatonin's

like, I gotta pop up and compensate for this

cortisol situation. Okay.

Yeah. And, you know, maybe it's coming out of the

gut, maybe it's coming out of. Who knows? Same

similar thing happens with exercise. You do, you

know, everybody's measuring at all these hormones

at such long time spells. It's kind of like, take

a tennis ball, take a picture, throw it up in the

air, catch the tennis ball, take another picture,

ball didn't move. That's what's going on. And now

with the higher frequency sampling capability

we're getting, and same was true as Glenn. Glenn

was monitoring every five to 10 minutes. So he

could see the change. If he waited two hours,

there'd been no change. You know, but that's not

what's going on. There is a clearly a long

diurnal time constant, but there's also all these

transient response and you think about just makes

sense, you know, we go do something, you go, you.

All of a sudden I'm going to run around the

block. Number one, I'd have a heart attack. But

number two, you know, essentially all my all

everything's going to come up and something has

to respond on a timescale of minutes that's not

circadian, it's something else. And it

contributes to circadian and probably is much

more important in a lot of ways than these

diurnal things. That's just kind of like a

baseline type thing.

Yeah. That's like the overview. But then minute

to minute, there's all of these other things

happening.

Yeah. And to my knowledge, I don't think

anybody's ever really shown that. I mean, they've

known that cortisol was kind of a pulse, but I

think this is the first time we've shown

melatonin is actually doing the same thing on a,

on a time scale of minutes.

Wow. And so how are you measuring this? Is this a

new technology that's enabling these measurements?

Yeah, it's a sweat sensor that's under

development by a company called Cordy.

Okay.

Are in license, I guess is what it got.

So everyone's going to Email me, like, being

like, where do I get one?

Can they get one available right yet?

Okay.

But no, I mean, it comes back to this whole

question of what units we measure, how we

measure, and we've been kind of. What we're

finding is that the deeper, the quicker or the

more accurately you measure things in the body,

the more complex the whole process is. And you

think about it has to be, you know, if you let

cortisol run rampant in your body, then you're

essentially going to be in a constant state of

agitation. So what is melatonin doing? Melatonin

doing is squashing it. But melatonin only is.

It's. It's got its own set of controls on it, you

know?

Yeah. And would you need to have enough melatonin

produced in your body to be able to do this? So

if you were in a. If I'm just thinking through,

like, if I am living an indoor lifestyle and

looking at screens before bed and there's

streetlight coming through my room, would I even

have enough melatonin to. For these processes to

work properly?

I would argue no, because I think that you have

to look at melatonin as a consumable, you know,

it is used. What does it mainly do? It mainly

suppresses reactive oxygen species and its

metabolite, after it gets oxidized does the same

thing. There's about 10 different metabolites

below. This is what you started with. So that's

why it's such an effective scavenger of a

reactive oxygen species. So every time you do

something you are depleting, you are using

melatonin or you're depleting the melatonin

reserve. When we're outdoors, I would argue that,

you know, you're essentially pumping it up and

that that's giving you a storage of it. And these

are during the day type things. This is not, you

know, this is not from the pineal gland.

Unless this is not the sleeping melatonin.

This is, this is, this is a. I got. I gotta deal

with the fact that I'm generating tons of

reactive oxygen species in my muscles when I'm

going exercise. And those cells themselves are

generating melatonin. There's no doubt in my mind

about that, you know, but the quantity consumed

is huge when you think about it. You know, it has

to be. So we are generating melatonin throughout

the day and during the night, when there's low

cellular activity and less likely to generate

melatonin, then you still have the brain

operating at a high capacity. Pineal gland dumps

A bunch of melatonin in to help protect the brain

and any cells that are kind of damaged. At least

that's the mentality that I propose. So. And, and

it seems the data is backing me up. I mean,

that's what I think is really cool.

I would also add that the actual experience of

people is backing you up. We work, you know, we

deal with, you know, I work with health

practitioners and health coaches, and when they

have clients who are compliant with going

outside, they feel better. You know, I'm not

saying it's like a cure all for everything, but

it. Like there has not. There are very few people

who don't feel better from sleeping in the dark

and going outside more during the day. That's

just what happens.

Well, and you think about it, I mean, in this

scenario, if the melatonin is being generated in

all our cells. The what? The exercise data that

we have shows that the melatonin within 10 to 20

minutes goes up and plateaus at some level. If

you're doing a certain level of exercise

continuously, the cortisol does exactly the same

thing. But then what happens? Cortisol starts to

fall off after a few 10, 20 minutes of exercise,

but the melatonin doesn't. So it appears that the

body is always trying to generate an excess of

melatonin. So what happens? You go to the beach.

How many people say, I went to the beach and I

just feel tired afterwards?

Yeah, I got sleepy.

I did a really great run and I feel a little

tired afterwards. I did a cold water immersion. I

feel a little tired afterwards. I think those are

all indications that you brought your melatonin

levels up and, you know, they're part of this.

It's eventually getting back down to baseline.

But the transient on transient response, you're

getting a jump in your melatonin levels. And like

I say, I mean, when I saw the data for the TNF

alpha, how it felt, how much it was affected, I

mean, we're talking about spike downward.

Okay. And the TNF alpha is the bad stuff?

No, it's not really. It's a, it's a, it's a

marker associated with cancers.

So I call that that stuff.

Well, I mean, I'm sure that there are people that

know it much better than I, that can explain it.

All I'm showing is the data. Yeah, the data shows

that when that melatonin spikes.

So the marker for cancer goes down when the

melatonin goes up.

Yeah, and that's, that's supported by a number of

different studies that showed that Melatonin

suppresses tumor growth, things of that nature.

So I mean, at the end of the day, what I guess

I'm saying is we're now moving from these, oh, go

do something and a day or two later, test it for

this to into a timescale of minutes. And once you

start doing that, you see that there's all these

different processes going on responding. And you

think about it, you have to, I mean, I, I chopped

off my arm or something, you know, some major

event type thing or even a small event, you got a

burn or whatever, the body can't wait four hours

to respond, you know, and how's it going to do

that? And what the sweat monitoring is really

showing, I think is that there's an entirely

different control system that is operating on

minute time scales that are pumping, they're

responding to a variety of different processes

are stressors that we're exposing ourselves to.

Right. And the more daytime exposure to broadband

emitters, the better.

I think so, yeah. I mean, I keep on saying be,

you know, optical, you know, wear a hat. I mean,

don't slather yourself up with a bunch of

sunscreen, you know, you know, wear a hat, stay,

enjoy the shade. There's a reason you like the

shade. You know, it's got a lot more good stuff

than bad stuff. And you know, that, that, that

guesses my point about the whole thing.

Well, Scott, thank you so much for coming back.

You really are gifted at talking about this and I

think playing a really crucial role as a bridge

from the scientists doing their lab work to the

rest of us who really want to know and understand

this as well as creating a product that is

helpful. So just for people to know, they can get

your lights. It's Silas.

It's nairalighting.com nairalighting.com okay,

yeah.

N I R A and if I lighting all1word.com.

If I could convince anybody to do anything, we

have a DC version that's just a little plugs in,

has a lamp or you can buy a conversion kit that

if you got a lamp that takes a screw in bulb, we

can send you those a conversion kit. It's going

to last you. Basically we give a lifetime

warranty on the bulb because it's designed to

last basically forever. It's set to have two

positions a day and a night. And you know, so

make it very simple and you know, I think it's

the right way to go. If I could just convince

people to put these kind of desk lamps on by

their laptop or Workstation and just get the full

spectrum. It's not going to hurt you, you know,

and it's designed to be as close as match to. To

sunlight as we could. Even more than an

incandescent, because it's got the. Some of the.

During the day, it gives you some of the blue and

greens that you don't get from incandescent that

are in sunlight. So I'm a big guy on ratios and

balance, and that's what I like. If I could sell

everybody on those, I'd be a very happy camper.

Yeah. And it is so simple. At the end of the day,

as you were saying, the complexity of the science

is basically infinite, but the actual practical

application, it's like go outside more and adds

some light bulbs like yours that balance out

that. Understand that we need more of a spectrum

than just the tiny little portion coming out.

Well, especially with children, because a higher

percentage of their cells are absorbing, are

getting exposed to sunlight, you know, especially

in the near infrared and other areas. But, you

know, I guess what I would like is that you don't

need. I mean, I guess I'll put it this way. I

believe at this point that we have shown there's

enough mechanisms and information out there that

what we're doing now with LEDs is wrong and

harmful. And, you know, is it going to make your

kid die tomorrow or whatever? No, but why spend

all this money on all these other things, but for

some reason, getting a good exposure to your

child outside? You know, I had a really

interesting conversation, just briefly, about a

gentleman who was trying to help battered women

in Chicago, I think it was. And, you know, he

said, you know, women in those conditions are

afraid to go outside, and we need to find ways to

get that kind of. Those are the people in

particular, because it's, you know, that need to

be exposed to sunlight on a regular basis, both

for their physical health and for their

neurological health. So, you know, we were

talking about maybe putting conservatories up on

top of buildings in some of the urban areas or

whatever, planting more trees, things of that

nature, having safe areas where people can just

go and, you know, get a little bit. And from

Glenn's work, you don't have to do it every day.

You can do it on just. It needs to be consistent.

And, you know, like I say, children are the most

susceptible to it. And I think we have a

responsibility to do something about that. I

would ban street lighting the way they've got it

now, but how are you going to convince the

government to do that? I don't know. Anyway,

thank you.

Thank you. The streetlights, that would be a

fantastic project. Well, Scott, we'll have to do

this again soon. It's really fun, and you bring

such a helpful perspective and the science and

all of the things. Thank you so much for coming

back. I look forward to our next chat.

All right. Thank you, Meredith.