MAIN

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 10 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] And then a concept I quite like, which Wilson and Dufresne said, spotting sunsets. Thinking of something in your life that you're trying to fix or solve, like your body, your anxiety, your unhelpful thoughts, and what if it was there like a sunset, instead of a, a maths problem, what if it was like a sunset to be observed and enjoyed, not something you need to put energy into and solve it like a quadratic equation. And think about what can you appreciate about how it is, about perhaps other elements of it that are beautiful in their own right, and treating it as if it's that sunset.

[00:00:46] In this episode, I continue my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon that started way back in Season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of act and psychological flexibility.

[00:00:58] Our PeopleSoup ingredient this week is acceptance. It forms the first part of the ACT acronym and can be tricky to explain. We do so using potholes, arriving into Heathrow Airport, and sunsets. You'll also find out which one of us is a cheap chocolate girl.

[00:01:15] PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PSUPers, Thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A A quick scoot over to the news desk. If you hadn't heard, I've got a new website and I'd love it if you checked it out@rossmacintosh.co.uk. That's ross macintosh.co. Do uk.

[00:01:54] There are plenty of resources there. And you can sign up for my newsletter too. So let's crack on [00:02:00] for now. Get a brew on And have a listen to my chat with Richard McKinnon about acceptance.

[00:02:10] Richard: So this time we're going to talk about a concept called acceptance, and this is maybe the downside of language.

[00:02:17] That word can mean very different things to different people. So what we're talking about here, very, very roughly, this is about how we deal with the uncomfortable stuff that shows up and, we increase our, our willingness to do the stuff that matters. So we accept. The discomfort, we don't struggle with it, there's layers to this that are worth unpacking because you could, you could just say that in one line and say, that's what it is and get smiling nods.

[00:02:44] But I think, you know, we need to go into it in a little bit more detail.

[00:02:49] Ross: yeah. So we've previously looked at the impact and the benefits of practicing diffusion. Getting distance from our unwelcome, unhelpful, unpleasant thoughts. And of taking committed action, moving towards the stuff that matters in our lives. So what does acceptance add to that? Acceptance helps us to make some space for that discomfort you were just talking about.

[00:03:15] Make some space for that discomfort that comes with doing important or meaningful stuff. I think that sets the scene. But maybe another way to look at it, Richard, is what do we not mean by acceptance?

[00:03:28] Richard: This is often how I start explaining it because it can mean it's an existing English word. Unlike diffusion for people, I have no idea what you mean by that. Please explain it to me or even present moment awareness. The hint is in the name. So what we're not talking about here is simply putting up with.

[00:03:48] an unfortunate or unpleasant status quo, you know, being disempowered. Because often if you use the word acceptance, you imply that's it. You're just accepting that terrible [00:04:00] situation. So we're not talking about that. We're talking about something much more empowering and dynamic. We're not talking about simply, you know, pushing through a difficult situation with gritted teeth.

[00:04:11] you know, hunkering down and, you know, that that's, I'm lost for words in describing that, but it's not that at all, because that's, that's energy sapping, really. And it's not really acceptance. We are persisting, but we're doing it in a very inflexible way. And an important point, it doesn't mean that we have to like or approve of the stuff that life is offering.

[00:04:38] We just, we don't need to buy into it. We just need to accept it's happening. Does that make sense so far?

[00:04:44] Ross: It does, and I think it's so important because I think acceptance and commitment therapy makes a beautiful acronym. ACT, who wouldn't love that? And I think a lot of people get tangled up in that word acceptance thinking, huh. Everything's a bit shit around me. This means I just have to tolerate that and, I'm, as you say, I like that word, I'm not empowered, I'm actually disempowered.

[00:05:09] Richard: Hmm. And if we look at our situations that can really facilitate inaction and potentially, you know, a loss of vitality in our life or even a difficult situation getting worse because we're not taking the helpful action we're simply putting up with rather than, I think it's about dividing things into two here, dividing the situation into this bit sucks and that's part of it but this bit implies the action I'm going to take in order to navigate this.

[00:05:45] And you know what, uh, as I focus on the action, The uncomfortable stuff is along for the ride, but it's not a linear first do one, then do two, which is a trap it's easy to fall into before I take the action. I need to feel better about this [00:06:00] situation. I need to get rid of this stuff that's bothering me before I can do the meaningful stuff and acceptance says, Nope, you just need to recognize and rationalize.

[00:06:11] If you like, it's part of it. It's not something to be carved out and removed or something that you need to process somehow. You just need to understand and accept this unpleasant stuff is part of doing this meaningful thing.

[00:06:27] Ross: And hearing you talk there, Richard, I think this really emphasizes the link between our six points on the hexaflex and how they, how they act together.

[00:06:37] How they all combine to serve that cultivation of psychological flexibility.

[00:06:43] Richard: It's an excellent point. How could you accept the discomfort if you weren't aware in the present moment of what that discomfort was, or if you weren't practicing the diffusion techniques we talked about so you could step back from your thoughts and really see them just as thoughts, you know, how can you do this without taking committed action without those acceptance is a very disempowering thing.

[00:07:07] Oh, I'm just underlining the discomfort of this, but combining it with action, combining it with your values, combining it with your diffusion means you are doing something dynamic. You're doing something based on what's actually happening in this situation. And your action is guided by values and in the direction of what's really important to you.

[00:07:27] And in that sense, They're, they're mutually supportive and almost, acceptance is defined by those other things, looking at it in isolation. Uh, if that's all we spoke about, it could be quite misleading.

[00:07:42] Ross: beautifully captured there, that, that, interaction in the hexaflex. And I wonder if I might play with a metaphor, because if you think about me out on my bike, which I often think about, and I often do get out on my bike. If I'm looking around me and I see a pothole up [00:08:00] ahead, I will think, Oh, I'm going to avoid that pothole.

[00:08:04] I'm going to check if there's any traffic behind me or anyone behind me, depending on what sort of route I'm on. I'll avoid that pothole and go around it. And that's to protect my physical self. But if I'm experiencing psychological pain or distress, Consider that to be a pothole. I'm not sure whether this metaphor is actually working or going somewhere, but consider that to be a pothole. Quite often as humans what we'll do is seek to go around it or avoid that pothole that contains psychological pain or distress. we'll treat it in the same way as a, as a physical obstacle or threat. Does that, does that work at all?

[00:08:46] Richard: It does, because I think it's a great example of how we take the physical and we map it incorrectly onto the psychological in the same way that we think, well, I can turn off the lights. I can turn off these thoughts. No, it doesn't work that way. And also, you know, cycling is a habitual thing for many people and you get in the habit of cycling a certain way in a certain style.

[00:09:09] I mean, and so we can get in a habit of avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, unpleasant thoughts, feelings, situations, but all this stuff we don't want. Instead of Is it worth it? Is this meaningful? Is it a big deal? It's automatic avoidance of the thing. And as we've said before, when we talk about values, doing stuff that matters to us is inherently good for us, even though in the moment, It could be a bit rubbish, it could feel a bit crap, to use a technical term, but it's the direction of travel is important, and the ultimate result could be wonderful.

[00:09:44] But in that moment, we might have to do something that at a minimum is a bit boring, and at a maximum could be quite scary. But they're feelings, they're not the physical pothole. There's something that we can persist through, that we can experience without [00:10:00] great threat to life and limb.

[00:10:02] Ross: So let's, let's talk about what it's more about. I think we're, we're, we're encapsulating that nicely, but I wonder if we talk about how it, it's about reorienting our attention and focus from avoiding that discomfort to actively accepting discomfort. it's moving from a barrier. Or something to be avoided, to being part of something more important, as you're saying, it's something in line with our values and what matters to us.

[00:10:29] So we're, we're becoming open to moment to moment experience with receptivity, flexibility, and a stance of non judgment.

[00:10:39] Richard: That's tough, isn't it? The non judgmental piece is tough because we like judging. Our minds are judging minds. And so we, we want to compare, contrast, categorize, like, dislike, but instead we're not going to judge this and create this. a task of it, we're just going to accept what that moment offers. I've got two examples to share that might bring this to a grounded level.

[00:11:07] I'm always conscious with our familiarity means we talk in conceptual way. So let's bring it down to brass tacks. One example, a very day to day example could be someone who realizes that what's very important, part of what's very important to them is looking after their well being and so they realize they need to take a break from work periodically during the day.

[00:11:28] A short break from work. Very good for us, but it's not going to happen unless you decide to do it. And while this person steps out of their office and they sit in the park next door, some of the discomfort they'll feel with that situation is that they don't know what's in their inbox. They can't see it.

[00:11:49] They've left their phone behind. They can only imagine what's in there. And of course, our minds are great at giving us loads of rubbish to fill in the blanks. [00:12:00] Anxiety, dread, worry about all the messages they're going to have to deal with. Now, acceptance is not saying, okay, well I need to deal with those thoughts.

[00:12:12] or I need to get rid of that discomfort. So I'm going to go back to the office and quickly look at my email. Acceptance is saying what's really important to me is looking after myself and getting a break from work. And as part of that experience, my mind is of course giving me thoughts about the stuff that's out of my control. So just like diffusion skills are not about removing thoughts or changing thoughts. Acceptance says I'm going to do this thing. Despite the discomfort that is inherent to the activity, because there's something more important here. There's something more meaningful, or even more necessary. You know, simply the necessary pedestrian things in life just to get by.

[00:12:55] That's the North star here, not the, I better deal with the discomfort as it shows up, because if that person followed that line of thought, they'd never leave the office because I don't like not knowing what's in my inbox. Does that make sense?

[00:13:11] Ross: Ah, I love this example and I love the way you're talking about a break during the day and how we can extrapolate that to taking leave from work. In terms of, oh, I'm going away for a week, I'll just make sure I take my work phone. I was going to say work BlackBerry. Where am I from?

[00:13:33] Richard: Are you a time Lord?

[00:13:36] Ross: I don't know why that word came into my head. I'm going to take my work phone, maybe my laptop, just in case anything big kicks off. so I can access that when I have this uncomfortable content that my mind is generating. that's a beautiful example because it really illustrates what we do next.

[00:13:56] What do we do next when that discomfort arises? Do we [00:14:00] rush from the park back to the office Or do we just sit there and recognize them for, what they are and accept them as part of us?

[00:14:09] Richard: Yeah, actually the part of us, that, that's it as well. We, we will waste energy, time, resources, trying to carve that out as a separate thing. We can somehow deal with separately. I had my own personal example yesterday. I spent our bank holiday weekend over in the beautiful city of Tallinn in Estonia.

[00:14:30] First time visit, Would 100 percent recommend it. We're not sponsored by the Estonian Tourist Board yet, yet, but had a wonderful three days of total relaxation and a slower pace of life and wonderful sunshine and all that good stuff. And then about an hour into the flight back to London, I realized Heathrow airport is at the end of this journey.

[00:14:55] And all that represents, all of the crowds, noise, hassle, queuing, all out of my control. And I began to notice, wait a minute, I'm now getting caught up with something that one, I have no control over. I cannot dictate how, you know, the airport is there waiting for me. But more importantly, I'm missing out on this experience that I was actually quite enjoying.

[00:15:21] watching something on my iPad that I was really, really enjoying. And so actually, the way I brought it back for myself was, yeah, navigating the airport and all of that grim stuff is part of this journey. I cannot remove it. Therefore, do I want to go through the airport like a demon? Or do I want to go through it as best I can, accepting all of the icky stuff that I personally really don't like about airports.

[00:15:52] And it was a kind of a light bulb moment that actually the full awareness of that was quite powerful, was [00:16:00] degrading my experience in the moment and was also something that was inevitable. And it's funny how we can get caught up in that stuff. This is going to happen and I'm furious and upset about it, but it's going to happen.

[00:16:12] And once you accept that, you expend an awful lot less energy trying to do something about it.

[00:16:18] Ross: That energy is an important point, because why would you want to practice this acceptance folks? Well, it allows us to direct our energy in a different way, to pursue what matters to us. It, it, it relegates our discomfort to an ingredient, an experience, not as an obstacle or even a task.

[00:16:39] Richard: Yeah, it's that point about I don't have to deal with this before I take action. It's like, as I go along, it's part of it. And, you know, to come back to that earlier point, I don't have to like it. I don't have to agree with it. In fact, doing any of those things, they're not authentic. So I'm getting caught up with it again.

[00:16:59] Instead, it's just, Accepting it. I'd like to share a quote, which I think is a really nice way of, of looking at this because I've heard it explained, lots of different ways over the year, but it's a, it's quotation from Steve Hayes book, a liberated mind. I've mentioned it several times, but I really liked this one.

[00:17:15] He describes acceptance is the full embrace of our personal experience in an empowered, not a victimized state. It's choosing to feel with openness and curiosity so that you can live the kind of life you want to live while inviting your feelings to come along for the ride. So we are bringing the whole kit and caboodle.

[00:17:37] We're not trying to live a life that doesn't include that stuff. Because that way ultimately lies, uh, problems, but instead of, a grimace and a grunt and a begrudging engagement with them, it's an openness to it and an acknowledgement and kind of, yeah, once you do that, you stop the struggle with it.

[00:17:58] Once you do that, once you [00:18:00] make space for them, you see them as part of things, not as to return to your imagery, not as, oh, this is something I can swerve around. This is something, if I just do this, I can avoid that because that experiential avoidance, as we know from previous conversations, also leads to problems, leads to upset, makes our lives that little bit smaller,

[00:18:24] Ross: Yeah, so hopefully we're painting a picture of why you might want to engage in cultivating the skill and practicing it. And how do you help your clients develop this skill, Richard? Hmm.

[00:18:40] Richard: like we did. You know, to, to, to make sure we're on the same page. And again, we don't have to get caught up with terminology. Sometimes with some people it's a visual or a metaphorical making space for that stuff. You know, it's in your backpack. You were bringing it with you.

[00:18:58] uh, it's attached to you.

[00:19:00] Ross: Hmm.

[00:19:01] Richard: Rather than here's a puzzle you need to solve before you can do the next important thing. I like to explore with people how they have already exhibited acceptance in the past because I've yet to meet someone who hasn't got an example of it that they can draw on.

[00:19:18] And this is in part to normalize it, to enable them to generalize from that and to demonstrate it's not a superpower. But more often what we're talking about is acceptance on a contextual basis. There are lots of things I can accept and some I find it very hard to accept. So let's see what parallels there are between the two.

[00:19:38] So anyone who has persisted through an exam, an assessment process, an interview, getting a job, changing a job, they, they did things that involve pleasure and pain, satisfaction and discomfort. How did they conceive of it? And often many people say, well, it's a, it's like a weighing scales, you know, the anticipated [00:20:00] benefits outweigh the hassle factor or the fear or the pain.

[00:20:04] So of course I was going to do it. And that often gives people pause for thought. They go, Oh wow, I've never thought of it in that way. Of course I would do it because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. But when I look at this context, we're talking about, it doesn't seem that way at all. It's about avoiding the discomfort in this situation.

[00:20:24] And then it's useful to explore, how is this discomfort different to that discomfort? And nine out of ten times, it's not different. It's the same thing. You know, so, I, I think that's a very empowering way instead of, here's my top ten tips for acceptance, it's, you do it already. Let's call it out. Let's link it to this present moment, this present context you're, you're maybe grappling with.

[00:20:48] And actually you already have this capacity within you. So it's about learning how to switch it on in those contexts.

[00:20:57] Ross: Absolutely. Brilliant. Richard. I love that. I love that, because what we're doing is there is retrospective noticing. And quite often, we're going through life at such a pace that we don't look back and think, Oh, blimey, I did that in the face of challenges and I was pursuing something that was important to me.

[00:21:15] So I love this, this retrospective noticing again, seeing how the different skills across the hexaflex are interacting with each other.

[00:21:25] Richard: Absolutely. How about you? How do you bring this to life with your clients?

[00:21:28] Ross: Well, I think that related to what you're saying, Richard. There's a, there's an element of, say I'm working with a coaching client, there's an element of just noticing gently as we go along from examples how they've stepped outside of their comfort zone. it's a phrase people use a lot, the comfort zone.

[00:21:48] But again, exploring how they've done that, what, what did it feel like at the time, how, how they motivated themselves. It's very similar, but again, it allows us to transpose that onto the, [00:22:00] the current challenge. And as you say, it's, it's skills they have already. So part of our job is to reveal them to people and help them apply them in a more workable and, uh, an effective way. And sometimes I'll use an acronym, which is from a paper by Robinson, Gould and Strozzel from 2011. I did a course with them a while back and they used an acronym, TEAMS. in that training. And I really loved it and I've incorporated that into my practice.

[00:22:31] So, the acronym, it's Thoughts, Emotions, Actions, Memories and Sensations. I think they're all pretty self explanatory, except perhaps Actions. Actions is about noticing our urges or our cravings or our knee jerk reactions, maybe our autopilot reactions. So thoughts, emotions, actions, memories, sensations, teams. And I work with clients sometimes to use this acronym to help them look at their inner experience. When the teams show up what are they suggesting? what might that mean in your behavior? What might you do next? And maybe sometimes even going a little bit deeper, thinking about how you've grown up, how you've been raised, how you've been schooled, and this, this encompasses all of our experience as human beings, but which were you taught to suppress? Which were you taught to hide growing up and which were more acceptable to, to show? And I think that lies at the heart of a book that you and me are both familiar with, the Ross Harris book, The Happiness Trap. Whereas culturally or societally, we can sometimes think that we have to be happy all the time. Turn that frown upside down, cheer up Richard, it might never happen. Oh, you miserable sod. All that sort of stuff. We're saying, Oh, I'm uncomfortable with your sadness. So, so cheer up to remove that discomfort. That's [00:24:00] essentially what we're doing, is it not?

[00:24:02] Richard: It is. And it's also, it's parallel cousin, if you like that toxic positivity that I want to negate your discomfort with a positive. So you should cheer up because I've told you something positive, which doesn't really listen to or acknowledge your point of view. So there is a societal, Western societal bias against a lot of positive feelings.

[00:24:26] When in fact, acceptance is about all of them, all of them are valid, but not all of them are useful, triggers for behavior or even guidelines for behavior. But as experiences, we can experience them. It's fine. And acting in a way that's helpful to us.

[00:24:46] Ross: Hmm. Lovely. And how do you practice acceptance yourself, Richard?

[00:24:52] Richard: Maybe if I can throw in one more thing, um, to, no, just to run that, that bit off, because there is a, uh, I've been challenged a handful of times by clients who are really thinking this through. I love when, when a client will do that. They, they challenge about, so do I have to, sit with all of these experiences, these inner experiences, do I need to experience them all?

[00:25:14] And the answer is no, but it depends. So let's imagine that, you know, my anxiety about rejection is, preventing me from putting my hat in the ring for a promotion. You know, you're letting that dictate your behavior and it's not helping you in the long run. But imagine you're being harassed or picked on, you know, you could take helpful action about that and you don't need to accept the feelings that come from the bad behavior of others.

[00:25:45] Right? So the, the thoughts and feelings that you have as a result of a terrible thing happening to you, they're, okay, it's natural that they arise, but you don't need to feel them any longer than the [00:26:00] behavior is happening. And so therefore, what can you do about the behavior? You don't have to sit there and take it, in other words.

[00:26:06] And so something bad happens, we're going to feel bad about that. What next? Rather than, well, acceptance implies I can't do anything. I just have to take it. And it's not, it's don't let the emotion, the thought, the sensation tell you what to do.

[00:26:24] Ross: Hmm.

[00:26:25] Richard: Yeah. And it depends which direction we're looking at this from.

[00:26:31] Ross: Such an important point, Richard. Thank you. Thank you. And I love it that your clients are really thinking it through and challenging

[00:26:39] you in

[00:26:39] that way.

[00:26:40] Richard: It's really great. And in terms of what I do myself, I, I keep it simple, which works for me, but I remember the sort of mantras. this is part of the experience or it's all part of this experience.

[00:26:54] I can't cherry pick only the good bits of this. In other words, all part of it, that could be everything from ambiguity, which I find deeply uncomfortable or waiting. I really don't like waiting for anything, but You know, waiting while someone else does something or waiting for news or waiting for a result.

[00:27:13] Well, waiting is part of the experience. There's no getting away from that. Or if it's something that's uncomfortable at an interpersonal level, I remind myself that what I'm doing is doing something that really matters. And that moves it away from I'm doing something nice, I'm doing something not so nice.

[00:27:31] Forget about that. I'm doing something that matters, and it could be feedback. It could be a difficult conversation of any, any description, but bringing it back to that. And, you know, to echo your, your potholes analogy, you know, we, we've talked previously about this notion of workability. We might in the very short term find that our behavior works for us, but take a step back and we realize that pattern doesn't really work over the longer term.

[00:27:57] So, explore the [00:28:00] workability. Of my behavior. which it sometimes it reminds me of, and we're going back into superhero realms here now, but maybe listeners will remember that disbelieving Thor face, uh, from one of the movies, he keeps pulling this really face and I have this kind of mental image of, yeah, that, that's fine.

[00:28:19] Oh, is it really? I'm avoiding that or I'm downplaying that or I'm just telling myself stories about it. So really no, no. And this is one of the most important things with acceptance to my mind. Honesty. We have to be honest with ourselves that actually, a course of action is in line with our values or is for the benefit of us or other people in this situation, otherwise we can buy into those stories about not this time, next time, or oh, it doesn't really matter.

[00:28:51] I don't need to say my piece, give my feedback, try and get that new job. So if we are honest with ourselves about how we're dealing with thoughts and emotions and also the impact of our behavior, we're then, I argue, better able to see the discomfort as being part of the package rather than the focus.

[00:29:10] how we make decisions. Does that, does that make sense?

[00:29:13] Ross: It does. It makes perfect sense and I love that, that honesty because we can kid ourselves.

[00:29:20] Richard: I think most humans are very good at that. You know, that's part of the problem with having a mind and we can buy, we can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid certain actions or certain thoughts and feelings. We think, and the honesty is we've been here before. And it didn't really work very well last time.

[00:29:38] Ross: Yeah.

[00:29:39] Richard: What about it's great because you make me think I was talking to a fellow act, practitioner, professional yesterday and we're, we're thinking about running an event. And we're talking about how we might do that. And this, this person was quite keen to put, put dates in, and I was very [00:30:00] resistant. And I kind of pressed pause in the meeting and said, can we just explore this a moment?

[00:30:05] Ross: Because I'm noticing my real resistance to putting dates in, and I'm not sure what that's about. Is it? Is it kind of functional for me? Is it, is it the building blocks that go, let's do this bit first and this bit first, then looking at the landscape, then we put the dates in or am I just being avoidant and not wanting to be tied down like the free spirit that I am? And it was so useful just to be able to have that conversation because we

[00:30:32] Richard: And verbalize it.

[00:30:33] Ross: and it helped us realize a way forward and recognize that I probably wasn't being. avoidant. I was just wanting to take it in that step by step basis on this occasion. But I do love your mantras because there's something my dear mum used to always say, and this is, this is sort of family wisdom, and she used to say it's all part of life's rich tapestry. And it kind of became a joke between us, Like something a bit shit would happen and we go, yeah, I know what you're going to say, it's all part of a nice rich tapestry. But it, it does work. It does work. I even, I even got to the point once where I did a cartoon about it, but that's a whole nother story. But what else do I do? Personally, I like to get better at spotting my teams. Remember those thoughts, emotions, actions, memories, sensations, and how they impact in my life. So if I've had a thought of, um, chocolate, and I found myself going to the fridge in the kitchen, trying, and it doesn't always work, but luckily, well I don't know if this is luckily or not, but I'm a cheap chocolate girl. My husband likes posh chocolate. You know this one where it's got

[00:31:49] 70%, 90%. That's not so much my palate. I'm more of a cream egg boy. or a whisper. And we don't [00:32:00] tend to have them in the house. So I noticed that the high percentage cocoa bean is not for me. For me it tastes like soil. But um, that's a whole other story.

[00:32:11] Sorry folks, I've gone off on a slight

[00:32:13] Richard: We've lost a whole bunch of potential sponsors now as a result of this. You should

[00:32:17] Ross: Hey, cream eggs and whispers, we're open. Posh Chocolate, sponsor Richard. See, it's like the ying and the yang

[00:32:25] Richard: Ying and Yang. no.

[00:32:29] Ross: temptation for chocolate, if I can notice that urge, that action in play, I can then pause and then decide, do I want to pursue that for my longer term goals, or is this just the relief of an urge?

[00:32:48] And that can, that can help you, just making space for that urge. urge, rather than actually even getting up and moving. Just, are you there? There you are again, urge. It can make a difference. And also, going back to my bike metaphor again, recognizing and testing out. I think that's something I do quite a lot, test out if I am in the avoidance state.

[00:33:08] Do I have an inner experience where I'm avoiding that pothole of psychological distress? And Because that avoidant behavior consumes resources, and those resources could be used for me moving towards what matters to me. That avoidant behavior restricts me too, and keeps me stuck in loops, just going round and round and round, and each time I go around that loop I feel more frustrated. So sorry about that little tangential chocolate

[00:33:41] Richard: I'll remember that chocolate waffle. That sounds quite nice, actually, a chocolate waffle. I think there's, there's, um, There's a gap for, for all human beings between knowing and doing,

[00:33:51] and the stuff that can make it more difficult to practice acceptance. There's a few points worth flagging up here. I mean, one, you've sort of touched on there around the [00:34:00] urges.

[00:34:01] It's very easy for us to believe, to believe, to buy into the belief that, Well, of course I could accept that, but I could never accept that as if the two forms of discomfort were, you know, different beasts. But in fact, it's all just discomfort. It's taking different forms, different strengths, different manifestations, but it's just stuff your mind is giving you.

[00:34:21] And being able to see that as qualitatively different from real risk, danger, and pain. is really, really key. So let's not try and make a hierarchy of discomfort, but just see it for what it is. Cause then we're removing more of the excuses for an action. If we are still falling into that trap of, I will do the thing.

[00:34:40] I just need to get rid of this noise in my head first, get rid of these thoughts, get rid of these doubts, or you're just delaying. You're just avoiding. That's, that's really not helping you accept anything because you've decided, Some things have to go first. You're trying to jettison stuff. If we find ourselves saying, and there's a whole category of this, but I've, I've put it in the show notes as the, I shouldn't have to type thought.

[00:35:04] I shouldn't have to put up with this. Or this shouldn't happen to me. Or, um, any of the sort of repetitive, uh, rumination type thinking about the injustice of this, you know, bad stuff shouldn't happen to good people. You know what, that's the antithesis of acceptance because you're imagining a world where everything is different and you're not acting in your interests or in line with what's important to you.

[00:35:31] And similarly, if we do the really common thing of make unfortunate or unhelpful comparison. Well, they didn't do it. It worked for them. Or they seem to be okay. You know, why do I have to have this when they don't? This is an intra person thing we're talking about. Accepting your discomfort. Not demanding others do it.

[00:35:50] Or not believing that it's easy because someone else has done it. It's your discomfort. It exists as a function of your mind only. And [00:36:00] if you've got a habit, a very strong habit of experiential avoidance to begin with, that's going to take more work than me simply explaining to you conceptually what acceptance is.

[00:36:10] So we might need to do far more, you know, micro experiments. behavioral experiments of dipping our toe into this rather than, um, what I described earlier, which is just to draw on experience, because I think we've, we've probably all met people for whom experiential avoidance is a very, very strong, element of how they deal with stuff in life.

[00:36:34] And remember that doesn't look like inaction. It can just like look like action in the opposite direction, you know, getting out of Dodge or avoiding Dodge completely or making a lot of noise in another space so that they don't have to deal with the other thing. So there's a few things that can make it more, more, more difficult than it needs to be.

[00:36:53] But I think the main, the main thing is that it's almost a cessation. of something. we're stopping within us the drive to somehow remove the discomfort, change the discomfort, or avoid the discomfort. We're not making our journey longer. We're not, we're not, you know, giving ourselves more work.

[00:37:11] We're just saying it's along for the ride. And I'm prepared to, or I'm willing to, and that's almost magical when we say that to ourselves. You know, I'm prepared to accept this. I'm willing to experience this because, and the because really needs to be followed by something that's a bit higher order. You know, because it matters, because it's important, because that's where I want to get to, because that's me being the kind of person I want to be.

[00:37:40] That's a way of, of bypassing. that stuff, being able to express our willingness to ourselves. And in fact, talking of terminology, that's another word I might use instead of acceptance completely. think it's less loaded, to be honest.

[00:37:56] Ross: yeah, the willingness word is, is super useful. It doesn't make a [00:38:00] nice acronym.

[00:38:01] Richard: This is the problem.

[00:38:03] Ross: Hey, I'm a practitioner in WCT. Hey.

[00:38:06] Richard: I mean, maybe there's a gap in the market there.

[00:38:11] Ross: So. Richard, would it be useful to do a little recap, do you think? How people can make a start with it?

[00:38:18] Richard: This is a tough one though, isn't it? Right? Because we said at the beginning, This is often a bit of a throwaway mention, when in fact it's really integral to us doing more of the stuff that matters.

[00:38:29] But I did see someone describe it in a little bit like this at a conference in the last few years. It was sort of present check, diffused check, you know, well, hold on. It doesn't really work that way.

[00:38:42] Um, but it is about noticing in the moment. It is about being clear on what matters to you. But these are not a mechanistic, like preparing an aircraft for takeoff, you know? So I think, you know, a good starting point would be a little bit like you said earlier for listeners and, anyone interested in this to start spotting what it is you're trying to avoid. Yeah. And, that could be procrastination trying to avoid it at a little task in the day to day, or you're avoiding doing something they actually quite like doing because there's something bothering you in the other direction. Like going back to the office to have a look at your email, just to start exploring that not through the lens of right and wrong, but workability.

[00:39:21] Is it helping you? Is it helping you be the kind of person you want to be? Or is the discomfort kind of dictating what happens here? Or are you trying to work around it to such an extent that it's changing who you want to be or how you want to be? I think the prepared to accept phrase is a really useful, useful one here because I'm not, everything has a goal and not all coaching revolves around goals.

[00:39:46] But if you are working towards a goal, asking yourself explicitly, what am I prepared to accept as part of the journey towards this goal? And that could be a personal goal, like a fitness goal, a weight loss goal, a savings goal, [00:40:00] even a home renovation. You know, what am I prepared to accept? There'll be lots of awfulness along the way, but that's part of that journey.

[00:40:08] It's almost like in business terms when, you know, we're doing a big program. of doing a pre mortem, let's think of all the things that could go wrong to see if we can account for them and plan around them and be realistic about it and not go in all Pollyanna and over optimistic. It's the same. It's like, well, if I'm going to do this meaningful thing, what, what kinds of ick am I prepared to accept, uh, along the way?

[00:40:35] And the final one I would throw in is, is what I would do with the client. If you're stuck in some way, if the, Real or anticipated discomfort had got you and slowed you down. Think about ways you've persisted in the past. What were those contexts? What's maybe the missing ingredient? Maybe you're missing linking it with your values.

[00:40:54] Maybe you're missing a clear goal to attain, or maybe you are unclear on what the next step could be. What's your, your towards move in this situation, but we can learn a lot from our past selves, in both directions. So thinking in those terms can be really helpful too.

[00:41:12] Ross: So I'd probably just add a couple of things to this folks. I've mentioned the teams, the thoughts, emotions, actions, memories, sensations. Practicing spotting them coming up and notice how they might be limiting you or taking you down avoidant routes. And as you said earlier, being honest with yourself. And then a concept I quite like, which Wilson and Dufresne said, spotting sunsets. Thinking of something in your life that you're trying to fix or solve, like your body, your anxiety, your unhelpful thoughts, and what if it was there like a sunset, instead of a, a maths problem, what if it was like a sunset to be observed and enjoyed, not something you need to [00:42:00] put energy into and solve it like a quadratic equation. And think about what can you appreciate about how it is, about perhaps other elements of it that are beautiful in their own right, and treating it as if it's that sunset.

[00:42:13] Richard: lovely. That's not one I've come across before. I think that's a really nice way of putting it because it's all about perspective then, isn't it? Rather than finding a solution, it's just something to be experienced. That's a really, really nice, way of summarizing the whole, the whole point of acceptance.

[00:42:30] We're not doing something to it. We're just taking what's offered and appreciating it as part of a human experience,

[00:42:43] Ross: That's it folks. My chat with Richard on acceptance in the bag Next week, we're back with the first part of my chat with Dr. Eric Goodman, a return guest.

[00:42:53] and author, and it's an absolute corker. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email me at people soup dot pod@gmail.com on Twitter.

[00:43:12] Where at Ross Mcco on Instagram at People Soup and on Facebook at People Soup Pod.

[00:43:20] You can help me reach more people with the special PeopleSoup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them as they navigate their work and life. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic, and Alex Engelberg for his vocals.

[00:43:35] But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.

[00:43:41] but I'm a cheap chocolate girl. My husband likes posh chocolate. You know this one where it's got

[00:43:50] 70%, 90%. That's not so much my palate. I'm more of a cream egg boy. or a whisper. [00:44:00] And we don't tend to have them in the house. So I noticed that the high percentage cocoa bean is not for me. For me it tastes like soil. But um, that's a whole other story.