E070 - The Exact Steps You Need To Safely Divorce A Narcissist When You Have Kids With Sybil Cummin
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Speaker 10: In this episode, you will discover the exact steps that you need to safely divorce a narcissist when you have kids.
Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.
Speaker 12: Welcome back to Heartbreak to Wholeness. I'm so excited that you're here for this conversation. In this episode, you're going to discover the clear and precise steps that you can take in order to safely divorce from a narcissistic spouse. You'll discover how to outmaneuver family court and keep your kids safe.
And you're going to learn techniques on how to not lose your shit when your ex is spewing his lies and manipulating everybody around you.
I'm talking with Sybil Cummin today and she is a therapist who specializes in working with survivors of narcissistic [00:01:00] abuse as they navigate family court and deal with probably one of the most horrific experiences, which is post separation abuse.
You will learn so much incredibly useful information today. If you are planning a divorce or if you're currently navigating a high conflict divorce and in and out of the court system, Sybil is going to give you everything that you need to know in order to navigate this with grace and to maintain your sanity throughout the process.
But it is really important to name here that the steps that Sybil and I are going to walk you through will only apply if you are in a safe place and have time to plan this divorce. So if you or your children are in immediate danger or have threat that feels like you don't have any time to sort of figure things out before needing to leave this situation so that you're not in that physical [00:02:00] threat, please call the Domestic Abuse Hotline.
The phone number is linked in the show notes as well as their website. And be sure to stick around to the end of the episode where I will pull an oracle card that will offer you a message that you can use this week to stay more conscious in your healing.
Speaker 6: Welcome Sybil to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. Thank you. I am excited to be here and that we are now connected.
~Yeah. ~Yeah. I had the pleasure of being on your Rising Beyond podcast talking with you about narcissistic relationships, toxic relationships, we just are on the same page with so much of the passion that we bring into this world.
So you specialize in working with women who are survivors of narcissistic abuse and who are going through Post separation narcissistic abuse with somebody else throughout the divorce process Yeah, and you are often working with women who have kiddos as well [00:03:00] moving through that process And so today's episode we're going to talk solely about how All of that.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. Because you know what, most people don't, you know, there's so many myths about intimate partner violence, coercive control, narcissistic abuse.
I use the terms interchangeably. ~Um, ~and so there's this belief that once you leave. It's all better and abuse is over and they can be great parents and that you can co parent happily ever after. And unfortunately that is not what it looks like for, I'm trying to think if there's anyone that I've worked with that that's what it looks like and I'm thinking that's a no.
I think that's a no.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, co parenting is hard enough when you're not working with someone with a personality disorder. And so when you throw in somebody who has NPD, or has narcissistic tendencies, or borderline, or you know, just any type of personality disorder, [00:04:00] that adds a whole other layer of stress.
Complexity to what you're going through. So if you're not working with somebody who has a personality disorder, maybe there's a way ~to, ~to have peaceful co parenting at some point in the future. But for the purposes of who we're talking about today, it's for the listener. Who's with somebody who, you know, can identify has narcissistic tendencies and, or is narcissistic.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, there's even the fear of leaving because ~you like you have this internal knowing that because otherwise you might have already left, right? ~You have this internal knowing of, Oh my gosh, what are the repercussions gonna be if I leave? And so it could have been that they've already threatened what those repercussions are.
I will take your children. I'm going to show everyone how crazy you are. You know, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. And because they've done a lot of things in the past, there is credence to their threats. Yes. And so just because you're [00:05:00] Does not mean that they don't want to still have control over you. ~Um, ~it might just shift in how they do it because ~you, ~They don't have access to you in the same way.
And so they need to access you differently. ~Um, ~and that is why it is, you know, more crazy making and, and people don't completely understand it initially.
Speaker 6: Yeah. And oftentimes when you have built the strength to even get to the place of saying, I want a divorce, you're showing. boundaries you're showing much, well, let me put it this way.
You are showing up as a person who is less controllable, which often will exacerbate their behavior because they feel more out of control of you. And they're trying to regain that control that they're used to. And so often ~the, ~the behavior will amplify in ~some, ~some way.
Speaker 7: Yeah. And depending on your flavor, we talk in the Rising Beyond community, we talk about ~your flavor of ice cream, um, depending on ~your flavor of [00:06:00] narcissistic partner, ~um, ~it might look a lot of different ways.
So you might have the extreme level of love bombing and all of a sudden their behavior is exactly as you want it. And they're like, see, look,
Speaker 9: you
Speaker 7: know, and so then that's really crazy making too. ~Um, ~or they may up the ante and maybe they've never been physically abusive in the past. And they're physically abusive because ~they, ~they see the threat of you actually leaving and them losing that sense of control over you.
So it can look a lot of different ways.
Speaker 6: Yeah. What would you say for the listener who is maybe has a feeling that the behavior will escalate in the, in the way of abuse, right? Whether it's emotional, physical, mental, financial, how do you work with their fears around what that could potentially turn into and how do you create ~that safe, ~that safety that's needed in order to take this next step?
Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, knowledge is power. ~Um, ~there is [00:07:00] a leaning towards like going down the rabbit hole, which is not, typically helpful. So if you are searching, you know, your Google searching, how to divorce a narcissist, and six hours later, you are still in that search, you are probably going down the rabbit hole.
~Um, ~and knowledge is really important. So knowing, ~like, ~what might it look like, really paying credence to your own, ~again, ~internal knowing, because you know your partner, your family better than anyone else that's out there. And so you know maybe what those repercussions might look like, and being able to speak to those fears with a coach, with a therapist, with someone who is going to listen, believe you, no judgment.
~Um, ~is really, really helpful because it is possible that you will need to safety plan. ~And, you know, ~people think, oh no, that's for someone that's not [00:08:00] like me. That's for someone who needs a shelter. That's for someone who has been, ~you know, ~hit over and over or has been strangled or, you know, and so there's this belief that a safety plan is too much,
and There's no harm in planning, in safety planning. And so it is looking sometimes at the worst case scenario, because if you've planned for the worst case scenario, it may not be that bad. And so then you're already ready. ~Um, ~something I've learned about survivors, ~um, ~those of you living within that relationship or have left, y'all are amazing at having plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D, all the way to plan Z because you need to figure out how to move as your ex partner moves.
And so you're going to come up with plan A, B, C, D, as many. Letters as you need to plan around what's it going to look like when I leave? Where am I, where am I going? Do I have the [00:09:00] finances? to leave, um, something and we'll kind of jump into how can I allow my children time with their other parent
so that I am not dinged as an alienator? Because that's, that's, you actually do need to be worried about that. And so that might have brought your, your defenses up, your, like, your shoulders just like shrugged and you're not breathing, your heart just stopped because you're like, no, because I need to, I'm the buffer.
I keep my kids safe. They're going to have to be with their dad by themselves. Like, oh my gosh, what does that look like? And if you think about these things beforehand and get that knowledge beforehand, you will be able to plan well. ~Um, ~so if you are really in physical safety, planning goes out the window and you're going to leave.
Right, you're going to find a safe place to go, you're going to contact your domestic violence shelter, you're going to do those [00:10:00] things, and we're going to deal with the other stuff later. If you have time and space to do some planning, You will be better off.
Speaker 6: ~Yeah. ~It's better to have the plan and not need it, right?
Have the worst case scenarios and not need it than to have that happen and not know what to do.
Speaker 7: Yes, ~absolutely. ~Absolutely. And I know it's scary to tell people and telling ~people one person, ~one safe person that you know, is not going to bring that information back to your partner. ~Um, ~there are a lot of flying monkeys out there, ~um, ~that are gaining information for your partner potentially.
So it's that one safe person. It might be a coworker that doesn't even know your partner. Might be, right, like someone in your spin class that doesn't know your partner but that you've started to become friends with. To let them know, I am contemplating leaving and I'm worried it might not be safe. They don't have to know [00:11:00] details.
Thanks. And I know I say that as like, it's easy, but I know that that's so hard to trust because people haven't believed you, won't believe you. You think you're crazy too. So you're like, am I even believable? And telling someone again, a therapist, a coach, if you have the means to do that. ~Um, ~can also be extremely helpful.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and talk about why that's helpful. Why is it helpful to tell at least one person that what's going on in your world?
Speaker 7: Yeah, and so that is a huge protective factor for you. ~Um, ~one, isolation has likely been a part of your world. over however many years and it will continue post separation and post separation will look a little bit different, ~um, ~because they are going to start, if they haven't already, the smear campaign like you have never seen it before.
And the goal of the smear campaign is to remove [00:12:00] any support that you could have. So it's going to be at your, to your family, it's going to be to your friends, ~your, if you, if you're allowed to have those. ~It's going to be to your workplace potentially. It's going to be to joint friends. It's going to be on social media.
It's going to be everywhere. And so that will harm you from accessing support. So if you are ahead of it, and you are letting the one or two people know, you will have some support. It's not that at the afterwards, you're like, Oh no, but he's been abusive. Because then it is, and I say this and it like makes me cringe.
He said, she said. And so having these conversations, dipping your toe in the water before, right? You don't have to like cannonball in and be like, Oh, and he's abusive and he's doing X, Y, and Z. And like, no, no, it is dipping your toe in the water. Is this the same person? Gosh, I'm [00:13:00] feeling real. I'm feeling crazy.
Does your partner ever X, Y, and Z? I'm feeling really controlled. Like he's monitoring me right now. He's texted me eight times in the last 30 minutes that I'm at this workout, right? Those little indicators where someone might be like, the fuck? Perspective. Because when you start saying it out loud and to other people, you're like, Oh, wow.
Yeah, this is not normal. This is not okay.
Speaker 6: ~Yeah. ~And it, for listeners, if you're not aware of what a smear campaign is, it's really an intentional act ~to, ~to discredit who you are, to drag you through the mud, to show everybody that you're crazy, to really spin the story so that you're the one that is the abusive one even, or like the one who's unstable.
And the, like you said, they go to great lengths publicly or otherwise ~to, ~to make people believe that. And unfortunately, [00:14:00] These people are very skilled manipulators, so they are convincing to other people. And this is something that comes up with clients that I've worked with and ~they just, ~they can't ~like ~let go of the people who choose to believe the partner.
They're like, why, how could they believe him? ~He's ~he's making all of this up. And why aren't they asking me for my side of the story? What would you say ~to, ~to that woman who's maybe experiencing that ~and, ~and people are believing ~the, ~the ex partner?
Speaker 7: Yeah. And it's like, if you think back to, and this, again, it kind of depends on where you're at in your healing journey of how triggering this conversation would be, were, how good were they at bamboozling you at the beginning of the relationship?
That is how good they will be with everyone else. And so with that, and this is so hard because you are going to be having trauma [00:15:00] responses to all the things, triggers to all of these things, and we need you to kind of move outside and be in your thinking brain a little bit, right? And so what we know is when you are experiencing ~Fight, fright, ~fight, flight, freeze, fawn, your thinking brain goes offline.
And so having moments where your thinking brain can be online so that you can speak in ways that people can hear you, because what my experience of, and I say this with all the love in the world, is. You all present like crazy people when you're trying to explain what's going on because you really want people to understand the context because the one something of like, ~um, ~they always make you late to work might be like, well, that's annoying.
Maybe you should figure out scheduling. And you're [00:16:00] like, No, but it's not that, it's they're going to keep me up at night and not let me sleep, and then I'm not going to be sleeping, and then, like, and then I'm responsible for all the childcare, and so then I have to get my kids to school, but then I'm not, right?
And so you're doing this crazy context, ~crazy pants, ~you know, conversation that people can't actually follow. You look crazy. And so being able to step back, we do want people to understand the context, but you gotta know if it's the right time, the right person, do they have the right role to basically have the honor of knowing your experience.
Speaker 6: Yes. Because not
Speaker 7: everyone gets, deserves that.
Speaker 6: Yeah. And not everyone can hold that type of information either. And so a lot of times ~if you're, ~if you're choosing a person who maybe can't sit with you in that experience, they're going to tell you you're being dramatic. They're going to tell you, Oh, just give them the benefit of the doubt or just try this or just [00:17:00] try that, which is totally not helpful when you're in that experience.
So vetting, vetting your six people. Absolutely. Yes,
Speaker 7: and that is that like dipping your toe in the water. I'm sharing this little bit, how do they respond? I'm sharing this something, how do they respond? Yep. ~Um, ~because, you know, ~those are, those are. ~Those are the only ways really ~to dec ~to decipher how this person feels to you.
Speaker 6: Exactly. ~Yeah. ~Okay, so ~we, ~we know that telling at least one safe person is helpful for potentially the smear campaign that's gonna come after you leave for your own sanity of just having that perspective or that, you know, that sanity check. Yeah. Creating your safety plan. ~Yeah. ~What would be ~the next, ~the next step for documentation?
Speaker 7: Documentation. Documentation. You're going to, and it sucks, you're going to document like it's your job. Yeah. It's your second job. You need to document financially.
You need to document behaviors. You need to document specifically how are your kids responding to things. [00:18:00] And we're not doing this in your journal because. your journal, like if that's where all your documentation is, and then you go to family court and you're like, look, here's my journal right here. It's my planner, but like, here's all my documentation.
Then the whole journal can then be entered into evidence. And if you have written in there early on, I don't think I can live like this anymore. What would it be like if I just went away and had any like suicidal or like, I wish I could just kill him in your journal. That is evidence for the court. So what I actually recommend is getting like, you can get these for free.
Like, I don't know, people send these things to me for like places. I donate money to like, The monthly planner. ~Yeah. You're like, what am I going to do with like eight monthly planners? I don't know, they actually keep them in my office. But, um, and ~just writing on specific dates, any incidents that happen, even if they're not [00:19:00] He punched me in the face incidents.
It is like, how did they undermine you? What was the financial abuse? What were all these things? So you're going to start documenting what things look like. And what I want to share, and this I was thinking about sharing later, but it kind of comes in, is you are not labeling anything. So I don't want you to use labels.
~for anything. ~You're not labeling your kids. You're not labeling your partner. Don't call them a narcissist. Even in your documentation, you are putting observations of behaviors and you're kind of narrating. This happened, then this happened, then this happened. This is how I responded. This is how they responded.
Because the labels If you are not a mental health professional that can diagnose your kids, my child has PTSD. Well, if they have that diagnosis, cause the therapist gave them that diagnosis. Great. [00:20:00] You will just not be seen as credible. And that actually you'll in family court. And I say this and I kind of laugh and I shouldn't laugh about it.
And there'll be like, Oh, look, she's Munchausen by proxy. That'll just be one of the narratives.
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 7: Just because it is. There's like a blueprint that narcissists use in family court. ~So that's one of them. ~So you're, as you're documenting, you're just documenting observations of behaviors with no labels.
Speaker 6: Like you're just a scientist looking at this really fucked up situation and just writing down facts, not calling him an asshole, not calling him a narcissist, not saying how your kid's life are ruined. ~I love that. ~I love that piece of advice because our emotions can take us into that place.
Speaker 7: Yes,
so finding moments where you are more lucid in that, ~you know, you know, ~prefrontal cortex brain, your executive functioning is a little bit more online so that you can document this way. [00:21:00] And then the other pieces you're leaving because Economic abuse looks different in so many different ways. ~So ~you might be the sole breadwinner.
You might be a stay at home mama and have not worked for 10 years. You as a family might be really struggling or ~you might be, ~you might be working in your husband's business and not getting paid, right? ~There's all, ~there's so many different elements of this. And so if it is safe to do, you need to start getting documentation of your finances, pay stubs.
Tax returns, 401Ks, any bonuses, pictures of, copies of, because they will hide money if they have the money. They will open new credit cards in your name, potentially, if you're the breadwinner. They all of a sudden [00:22:00] will transfer money places. And any family court arena, once it's like in family court, you are supposed to, if you are a law abiding citizen, a good person, keep to the status quo of your normal living.
So you need to be able to document what is status quo. And if they have any little inklings that you are leaving, all of a sudden you don't have access. to bank accounts, or they transferred 30, 000. Now, you don't know where that went. Or they buy a new car, and it might even be for you, because it's manipulative.
But they're, they're doing different things with their money. And so we need to know what does their money actually look like? What does your money situation actually look like? So that you can show in court, look, This is [00:23:00] how we've lived for three years. Look at our tax returns. We've made 100, 000 as a family and now he's making 30, 000.
~What? ~In within 30 days his income has significantly dropped. How did that happen? Right? So protecting yourself financially too and it's not financially because you're the money hungry. Person just trying to take all their money, which is something they are going to say you are. It's because you need to take care of your kids.
You need to take care of you and your kids. Yes. That's all.
Speaker 6: Have you ever run into a situation where the woman hasn't had access ~to the, ~to the financial, like, side of things at all, and she just has sort of trusted him, and maybe she's the stay at home mom, and kind of in those traditional gender roles of he handles all the money.
~How, ~how do those women start to get the passwords to things [00:24:00] or like start to get access ~to, ~to the information that they need. You may not
Speaker 7: be able to get it. And here's a piece that feels gross to so many of the women I work with. You may have to start playing the game. So maybe they have talked about getting a condo in, we're in Colorado, in the mountains, in a ski area.
And you've been like, no, no, you know, poo pooing, but they really want this. Okay, so I'm contemplating, like, I know you really want this condo in the mountains. Can we sit down together to go over the finances just to, like, relieve my fears so that we can maybe start looking at the condos? Okay. Yeah. Like, that's gross, because that's manipulative.
And that might [00:25:00] be the only way. It could be that you're not going to get access, and in those cases, which is really tricky, depends on the state you live in. But a lot of times, until you're divorced or legally separated, you will not have access to state or federal Support or money. So you need to just do a quick Google search of that.
~Um, somewhere safe, ~go to the library if your computer's not safe, ~um, ~or your phone's not safe. Because it may be that you, to take care of your family, need to do a legal separation. So then you can access Medicaid for health care. You can access TANF or food stamps so that you can keep your family okay.
~Um, so ~sometimes you can go to your, ~um, uh, like ~human services department, ~you know, ~building and ask those questions. ~And ~sometimes they won't give legal advice, even though it's not legal advice. [00:26:00] And sometimes they just don't know, like the people working there just don't actually know. But, ~um, ~that's something that you may need to do if you need to keep your family safe.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Oh man. The documentation piece I know is, is challenging, especially when it comes to like the financial piece that you might not be super versed in or just not have, you know, an understanding of what's going on. So also taking baby steps and, and as you get information, you know, educating yourself, like you said before, knowledge is power.
So the more that you can, you can understand what the things are that you're looking at, the less sort of overwhelming everything becomes.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and domestic violence agencies are not just for women who are getting the shit kicked out of them. ~Right. Right. ~They can help you file the initial separation paperwork.
They can help you file the divorce. They can help you file order of protection if you need it. They can help you plan for how to squirrel away money. They [00:27:00] can help you with that safety plan if you don't have a therapist or a coach. ~So, um. ~They can be really, really helpful, and a lot of times they can meet you, not at the agency.
They can meet you at a library, they can meet you for coffee. ~Um, again it depends on even the county that you're in, but there, there are options to get support. ~
Speaker 6: Yeah, and a lot of times you'll get an advocate who's assigned to your case and can help, ~like you said, ~with your specific situation, because ~if, ~when we start Googling, there's so many different situations that are true for people, so it's like, getting the advocate, this is free of charge, ~you know, ~they help you put all of this stuff together, and ~we'll, ~we'll link in the show notes the National Domestic Abuse Hotline too, so people have that handy.
Speaker 8: Yeah. So
Speaker 6: after Safety plan, telling a friend, documentation, getting your financials figured out, what's next? So
Speaker 7: if you can, before you leave, and this is an if you can, ~um, ~for a lot of reasons, get the kids in therapy. Because [00:28:00] after you separate, if there is any court order at all, You will have to get your partner's consent, your ex partner's consent, to have your children in therapy.
You will, like, If unless your partner has a conviction of domestic violence or the reason for the separation was a crime, your partner initially will have decision making over medical decisions for your children. So as a play therapist who works with these kiddos, ~um, ~it's a lot of hoops to jump through for the therapist, but for the protective parent.
to get another parent on board. So it's not like, Hey, I'm thinking of divorcing you. I think our kids should probably get some therapy. Don't say that. That's not going to work out for you. ~Yeah. Um, ~it might work out if ~you've, ~you're like, Oh [00:29:00] shit, I just, I'm in the divorce process and I want my kids to get therapy.
There are ways you can, again, work the system to make your partner, if they don't allow therapy, to make them look really bad. And that is a tool that you can use. But again, it feels gross. to play that kind of game. ~Um, ~and if you don't have access to a therapist, like, they're like, nope. Like, you have no access to the insurance.
You have no access, like, you got nothing. I highly recommend going to, like, talking to the school counselor. Just be like, hey, ~we've got a lot of, you know, say anything. ~We've got a lot of stuff going on in our family, and I see some, ~like, ~transitions coming up. Could you check in with my kid? Because if there's someone that is safe for your kid to check in with to talk about these things, You might get a referral like, hey, ~this is past the, ~this is outside of our scope of practice at a school.
We actually recommend that they find a therapist. [00:30:00] And same thing is scheduling a pediatrician appointment. And before you've left, ~you, ~he's not coming. When's the last time he helped you take the kids to the doctor? Never. Will he want to come to every appointment after? Potentially. So going to the doctors and just saying to them, like, hey, we might have some family transitions.
Could we reach out for a referral for therapy in the future? Shall we need it?
Speaker 8: Because
Speaker 7: a judge is going to take a doctor's recommendation over your ex's statements of you being a crazy person. Right? A judge will look at the letters after someone's name and be like, Oh, they know what they're talking about.
Sometimes they don't. And you know, that's a whole nother story, but, ~um, ~but that is, that will, that will help post separation.
Speaker 6: I would imagine too, with kiddos who are, who are [00:31:00] witnessing ~Did ~abuse on some level, whether it's a physical, emotional, narcissistic, ~all of the, ~all of the categories, the kiddos are going to have some behavioral issues.
Speaker 7: Behavioral. They might be extremely anxious. They might be the people pleaser. They might be struggling in school. ~Um, ~whatever it might be, they, they likely do. And I'm clearly biased because I'm a play therapist by training. ~Um, ~but yeah, they need support anyways. Yeah. And so it is just finding the in so that it's like, yeah, fine, whatever.
Like, as long as I don't have to bring him to therapy. Great. Right.
Speaker 6: ~Yeah. ~Yeah. So instead of saying we're going to get divorced and they're going to need support, it's like, oh, little Sally is, you know, showing a lot of perfectionist tendencies. I see her starting to like really withdraw or, or over engage or whatever she's doing.
We need to put her in therapy. ~And, and maybe that has more sway with. And maybe he doesn't care, right? ~It's like trying to find ~the, ~the least, ~um, ~arguable reason that your kid could get some help. I love that.
Speaker 7: ~Absolutely. ~Absolutely. And you [00:32:00] might get the like, our kid's not crazy. It's like, no, but ~you know, they're, ~you know, our daughter, she, she's seeming really anxious and I really want her to perform well in such and such sport.
Right. Yeah, whatever, like, it's like, oh, I, I look like a great person when my child wins first. Yes. ~That's a good idea. ~
Speaker 6: ~Finding the, the, um, what is the word? Buy in. ~Finding the buy in. Yes. If they are very, they want their kid to be number one in sports or they want their kid to, you know, be president of the class or have straight A's or whatever, so that they look good to your point, then that's the thing to play on in order to pull some strings to get the kids, yeah.
Speaker 7: And the more safe people that you and your kids can have in their world, the better. Absolutely the better. Yes. Yes. Okay.
Speaker 6: What else would you, would you recommend for these mamas?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think, and this is, you're thinking about and planning for the after, but I would say definitely, definitely. And I don't, there's not one that I, I 100 percent [00:33:00] support or not support, but you need to have a co parenting app.
So the reason why this is important is because post separation, they again want to find any means to abuse you they can. And if you're not living with them, they can do it through your phone and emails. So will they blow you up in all sorts of ways? Yes, they will. They're going to do that. And so sometimes text messages, emails, calls.
are not court admissible because they can be altered. ~A lot of times they are because our family court systems kind of, um, I don't even know if that's the right word, but they're like a joke. Like they pretend, our family court system pretends they are so procedurally correct and hoity toity and whatever and it's a hot mess in their family court.~
But a co parenting app, all of the messages can then be seen by any of the legal professionals. They cannot be doctored, they cannot be changed, and that post separation is going to be the majority of your documentation. So yes, you're documenting incidents, transitions to visits, things like [00:34:00] that, but the majority of your documentation is in that co parenting app.
Because they may be able to hold their shit together for a little bit when they know people are watching, but they can't do it for a long time. So there will be elements of abuse within your co parenting communication. Yes.
Speaker 6: And would you recommend blocking on all other platforms and only having that as the only access point?
Speaker 7: And so very often in temporary orders, which would be like your first If you, if you go to court, because you don't have to go to court, um, but in temporary orders or in mediation, you can request, I would like to keep our communication in the co parenting app.
They may not agree, and so if you don't have temp orders and it's not ordered, You can respond to things, which is kind of ~a, um, ~a little bit of an organizational headache, but you can respond to all the things in the co parenting app. [00:35:00] So you're like, oh, copy paste or screenshot of text. And you stick it in your co parenting app and they're like, to respond to your question you texted me on x, y, and z date.
And then you answer only things that have to do with your child. Once you separate, they have no right to know anything about your life.
Speaker 6: And don't get sucked into the, I miss you's or you're such a bitch or what, if, whether they're going the, I love you route or the, you're a terrible person route, like keeping it the gray rocking method, right.
Keeping it ~very, um, boring, ~very, to the point, ~very ~taking all of the emotion out of the response and not playing into what they want you to play into so that they can rile you up, dysregulate your nervous system, get you to do crazy things. ~That's all part of the ~
Speaker 7: And figuring out what you need with regard to that communication.
So the ding of your co parenting app, that notification, there is nothing that will give you [00:36:00] more anxiety than that ding. Yes. So figuring out when are you going to check it? Are you going to check it once in the morning, once in the evening? Like what makes sense in your life so that you can, again, limit their kind of control over you.
And then if you are headed to family court, and this is gross, and I, it's like vomit in my mouth, you actually have to be very pleasant and present as a good co parent because that is what the court will be looking for. So in almost every, every state has their own statutes or what is in the best interest of a child that a family court judge is going to look at in divorce.
One of them in literally every state that I have looked at is first putting the child's needs ahead of your own, willingness to encourage the relationship. Between your children and the other parent. That is so hard. And how can you do this in a safest [00:37:00] way is by being very pleasant as you're messaging.
So saying the pleases and thank yous, ~um, ~like thank you for your message. I need to think a little bit harder on this question. I'll respond by the end of tomorrow. Thank you. Right? Where you want to be like mother or dad, right? Like, yeah, you like all of this stuff. No, no, we're not going to do any of that because then this is one of the only ways ~to ~that you're going to be able to refute any of their narratives of you is how you respond.
~in your co parenting app. ~So if they're saying that you're alienating, but you're like, Hey, we've got our visit, you know, transition coming up. Are we doing it at the school today? Because they know show or they change it up all the time or whatever they're going to do to make your life hell. You're not like, you never showed up at the school.
So the visits off. Nope. You're like, Hey, I'm just confirming. The [00:38:00] appointment is our drop off time is three. Yes. Yeah. Right. So you're going to refute any of the narratives that they are going to say about you in family court, they will lie about you in court. FYI. They will. Um, and so just to have evidence, right.
It's like doc, it's documentation. Look, I'm not who they say they are. All the time. See, look, for the last three months that you've been using our co parenting app, I'm not the crazy person that they say that I am.
Speaker 6: And almost to go into it with the expectation that they're going to paint you as crazy.
Because I think part of the, the piece that's so hard to, to like stomach for us in these situations is like, how can they be telling the judge it's blatant lies? Yes. And the judge believing them, right? So it's like expecting them to be exactly. The way that they've shown you that they are. It's not a surprise.
And I love your recommendation of keeping, like, front of mind that this is for the kids. I want [00:39:00] to tell him to go fuck himself, but I'm not going to do that because, for the sake of my kids, I need to be seen as the fit parent so that I can have parenting rights, so that I can take care of my kids. Yes. So keeping that in mind when everything in you wants to just, like, knee jerk back at him and having a different outlet, be it your safe person or your best friend or whoever, to be like, this motherfucker, you know, and something that's not documented, something that's not, you know, can't be used in court, but having some other outlet for those emotions, that's not him or the app.
Yes.
Speaker 7: Yep. And, ~uh, ~I'm glad that you ~re ~brought that up because, and I say this and it's hard to hear, but you need to hear it. The court system, family court system, does not care how the abuse has impacted you. That is not their role. Their role has nothing to do with, and it's even coming out of my mouth, I'm like, ah!
Their role is not to protect you at all. [00:40:00] And so when you go into court with your attorney, with whomever, and you're talking about how he constantly abused you, you will not be heard because that's not what they're looking for. And so anytime you're with court professionals, ~I say that loosely, professionals, um, ~Evaluators, the judge, mediation, in your co parenting app, anywhere, the focus is on your children.
What is in the best interest of my children? Always. Your therapist, your coach, your best friend is for how it impacted you. Your attorney? Nope, not really. Maybe to give them a little context, but nope, they're not your therapist. The evaluator? You can speak to it like a little bit and just like kind of like as a preface like yes this was in our life if you would like more information I am happy to share [00:41:00] that.
Children. Yes. Right. Even for the therapist, even for your child's therapist, so as a child therapist we do intake sessions with both parents. Even if there are, right, there's separation, ~uh, ~quote unquote, high conflict divorce, which means abuse. ~Um, ~we do intakes with both parents. Why do we do that? Not together, not together, unless they're married.
I do it to gain data. So I typically have one parent who is talking about their children and how their child is struggling and this, this, they might bring in the, the abuse to them as well. But very often the safer parent is talking solely about the kids. They not safer parent will preface, you know, I don't want to talk badly about the other parents, but,
Speaker 6: but here's all my shit talk.
Speaker 7: And then they might mention the kid. Right. It's just data for me. Yeah. So even [00:42:00] in that situation, when you are with a child therapist, you can, again, I have experienced. Some emotional abuse, physical abuse from their, their dad. I'm happy to share more and kids on the kids that if there is one thing you take from this episode, it is that.
Yeah. Is to focus on the kids in all communication with anyone involved in your case. Yes,
Speaker 6: This is such good information. I can imagine listeners like going back and listening to this several times and taking some notes with the, the woman who's listening to this and is starting to feel her heart race and get overwhelmed and be like, Sybil's giving me such good information, but like, oh my God, I can't imagine walking through this fire.
~What, ~what advice, what wisdom, what like words of encouragement do you have for her?
Speaker 7: ~I think ~Really trusting [00:43:00] that you know what to do. And people don't believe that all the time, right? Like these women are unsafe. They're in these abusive relationships. You know how best to keep you and your kids safe.
Your nervous system has grown neural networks just to keep you safe. And so too, which this is hard when you feel like you're crazy all the time to trust yourself. So if you feel like I can't leave right now, don't leave right now. If you're in that space of like, I need to leave because I can't, like you said before, I can't unsee it.
We're going to plan. We're going to do all of those things. And that even though post separation abuse is really hard, it's really hard. You will not be living in it all the time. There will be moments where [00:44:00] you're going to start to see who you are again, and that's a lot of work too, right? Like rediscovering who you are, and you're going to find moments of peace with your children.
No, you may not be living in the, you know, multi million dollar home anymore if that was your lifestyle. And You can sit and watch a movie with your kids. They can be bouncing their leg and they might spill popcorn. And no one's going to get yelled at or hurt.
Speaker 6: Yes. One of, one of the most beautiful, ~um, ~reframes that I've heard with another guest on the podcast was that ~you, ~you get to create this safe haven for the kids to come to, because when you're living with the partner under this abuse and all of this stress and all of this walking on eggshells, everybody's feeling it.
And there's no safe, ~like, place to be. ~place to go to decompress. So if you get to create your own home, even if it's a one bedroom apartment, ~like, ~and you have nothing, [00:45:00] at least they have a place to come and, ~like, ~be themselves and process through what they just went through with their dad. Or just to, like you said, be able to be themselves without being yelled at ~or, ~or threatened.
It's like you get to create that safe haven even if It's the hardest thing you've ever done in the world.
Speaker 7: And the research shows that, ~some kind of a resource junkie, the resource shows, the research shows that, um, ~children only need one unconditional caregiver to build resilience and to be able to heal from all of the ACEs.
stuff, all of the adverse childhood events. ~Um, ~and so you get to be that person.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 7: And so they don't need their dad to magically be this person where they're going to have unconditional love. It's not going to happen. And so you get to be that for your kids and they really only need
Speaker 6: The way that trauma gets stuck in our body is ~when we've, ~when we don't have that outlet to [00:46:00] talk about it, to process it, to make sense of it, to be comforted in the experience. So ~if you, ~if they're going and experiencing not great things ~with the, ~with the father, but then they have a place to come back and be like, mom, I'm so happy I'm here.
This is what happened with dad. Then you have the opportunity to talk about it and to comfort them and to help them make sense of something that's totally nonsensical, that reminder, I think is so important for. Women. Takes you. That's it. And we know, and we know that you are the big hearted, caring, empathetic, wonderful, like woman that has this capability ~to, ~to really show up for your kids and yourself.
Speaker 7: ~Absolutely. ~Absolutely.
Speaker 6: So good. Oh my God. We could keep talking forever. But for the sake of this episode, I always end these by pulling an oracle card. Yes. Have you ever worked with oracle cards?
Speaker 7: I have done it not for a long time. ~Um, ~a really good friend of mine, we, when she did networking events, ~um, ~we always pulled an [00:47:00] Oracle card.
Speaker 6: Cool. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I like to pull it at the end just to offer another message for the women listening. So, and I like your participation. So if you can close your eyes and you and I together, Sybil are just going to tune into the listeners, tune into the energy of the deck. We're just going to ask Spirit, Universe, whatever higher power we believe in, what is the message that is most needed for the woman listening today?
Whenever you feel like the shuffle's complete, I want you to tell me when to stop.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 6: So we got Weirdo. Yeah, that fits. If you're not watching the video, it looks like a one eyed weird creature of ~some, ~some sort. So I'm going to find Weirdo in the book here and I'll read you what it says. Weirdo. Weirdo is here to let you know that it's time to let your freak flag fly. [00:48:00] Unapologetically. You are perfect and unique.
Stop apologizing ~in agony ~over not fitting in. Embrace your inner and outer weirdo. This world needs your point of view, your expression, your gifts, and your novel ideas. Weirdo demands you live fully in your truth. From your soul's place of ~deep, ~deep confidence and knowing that you came into this world perfectly and wholly as you were meant to.
No more hiding. No more worrying that your unique way of being in the world isn't enough. It's time to live fully as your beautiful self. Confident, expressive, open, and loving.
Speaker 7: ~Yeah. ~Yes. And I was just thinking that if you can offer that to your kids. Then they will be just fine.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and removing ourselves from these unhealthy situations allows our light to come back on, our personality to come back through, us to have a little bit of joy, and even if it's like minuscule at the beginning, these moments of dancing in [00:49:00] the kitchen, or singing in the car, or just not being under so much hyper, hyper focus and tension and stress, ~and ~your kids feel that resonates and ripples out onto them as well.
Beautiful. Sybil, thank you. This information is so valuable. Where can listeners find you if they want more support or more resources?
Speaker 7: Yes, so I run a community of women, ~um, ~specifically who are going through post separation abuse and the family court system. That is the majority of women are kind of stuck in that space.
~Um, ~and so that's, ~uh, ~the website is risingbeyondpc. com and then I host the Rising Beyond podcast that really is, again, The same, the same kinds of information, ~um, ~really specific to healing when you share children with your ex partner. Perfect. And that's specific for women in Colorado, is that correct? It is.
So, actually, the Rising Beyond Community is for [00:50:00] nationwide. It is a different call to my therapy model. ~Um, ~but, yeah, so, Anyone listening pretty much anywhere can check that out. And there's a lot of resources too of legal resources and books and how to's and some of those things on there as well.
Speaker 6: Perfect.
~Perfect. ~Perfect. And we'll link the domestic abuse hotline, the national phone number in the show notes too. If you need some immediate ~like ~safety planning and help navigating ~your, ~your specific court system, your specific state court system. Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sybil, for all that you do in the world and for the women who absolutely need you.
Speaker 7: ~Yeah. ~
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me
.
Speaker 11: Sybil is such a brilliant woman and has such potent information. So let's recap some of the main points
so you can really be sure that you are absorbing to the best of your capacity. Because I know when you're in these situations, You are in survival mode a lot of the time. And so repeating, regulating the nervous [00:51:00] system, all of these things are going to be good for you as you gather your information. So from this episode, you now know the clear steps that you can take to plan a safe divorce from a narcissistic spouse, especially when kids are involved.
You know now how to outmaneuver manipulation in family court with a specific. Little tips and tricks so that you can keep your kids safe. And you know the techniques that you can use to not lose your shit when your ex is manipulating everybody around you and everyone is falling for his lies.
Really take your time with this episode. Go back, re listen, take notes, save it in a safe place. This is going to be, like, your North Star. So I'm so, so, so happy that Sybil gave us her time and her wisdom to share this with you.
If you enjoyed this episode, I'm going to point you back to episode 27. It's called How to Protect Your Child and Save Your Sanity When You Are Co Parenting with a [00:52:00] Narcissist. It is another episode along the same lines as this one, um, that will give you some inspiration and hope and tips and tricks on what to do.
That episode was before the rebrand, so if you hear me in the beginning say Lucid Living with Bre, uh, that's what the podcast was called before it was called Heartbreak to Wholeness. So, no need to be alarmed that you're in the wrong place. You are exactly in the right place, as always.
This podcast is for you. You are so not alone. You do not have to walk through this alone. And I will see you in the next episode.