Morgan L. Stogsdill (00:00)

How do you out manipulate a manipulator? And is it even worth your time and money? Well, you're about to find out on this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:45)

Boy, do we love talking about manipulation on this podcast. Divorce and manipulation go together like my anxiety and iced coffee. It's happening whether I like it or not, whether I need it, and it's about to make my situation a whole lot worse. But friends have less fear because Lois Lieberman is here. my God, I can't believe I just said that. Lois, I'm rhyming now.

Our guest today is none other than critically acclaimed New York City divorce attorney at BlinkRome, personal friend of the podcast and my future best friend, she just doesn't know it yet, Lois Lieberman. Lois Lieberman, welcome to How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Lois Liberman (01:26)

I am so delighted to be here with you ladies. Thank you so much for having me again.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (01:31)

We love you and we are ready to get into this conversation about manipulation. So Lois, you know, manipulation begins and ends with control. So someone's being manipulated by their spouse during their divorce proceedings and they wanna take back the control, whether it's control of the actual process of what's happening or it's just like mentally, they wanna feel like they're on top.

They come to you, they tell you this, where do they begin?

Lois Liberman (02:03)

first there needs to be parameters put in place. I have always experienced that those who have been controlled during their marriage in the divorce process, because they've shaken off the shackles of the manipulation and the control, they want to take it back in a very profound way. And in a way, it's almost like a pendulum and the pendulum swings the other way.

And then they become almost like everything's a fight. Everything is a win-lose situation. They want their voice to be heard and they're having difficulty modulating it. So the first thing I really say to them is we need to look at this in no matter if we're dealing with the children or money. We have to look at it as a business transaction. We have to look at it, figure out what we're looking to achieve, what our goal is, and try to get there in the shortest way possible.

back and forth, especially with a emotional vampire, you can't keep giving them emotional reactions, right? The first thing, and it's in a way, these individuals have to kind of always have like sticky notes or the little rubber band that keeps reminding them. They have to recognize that emotional reactions is the fuel that gives the

manipulator or the narcissistic manipulator or the person who is a course of controller. That's what they're looking for. So first order of business is to begin to look at every communication and every interaction in some sort of just business transaction.

to try to manipulate the manipulator is really just trying to achieve your goals in a nonreactive way. So you're not getting sucked in to the emotional vortex or as I like to call it the toilet bull.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:47)

The toilet bowl effect. I love that, Lois. And you would know, I have to toot your horn for a second you were Mariah Carey's attorney.

And I'm not disclosing anything that's confidential because it's been in the news, but man, that looks like a complete vortex and mess.

Granted, it was a few years ago, but you got that case done. And so you have seen so many of these cases, just like I have. And one of the things that you just said that I want to reiterate is the other side wants to manipulate to get something. And so if you're in chaos, they are winning. but the thing is, like Andrea always says, don't get on the roller coaster.

the chaotic roller coaster. You don't want to get on, you want to get off that roller coaster. a lot of times it's the person throwing the tantrum because they're not getting their way.

And the only way to get their way is to try to manipulate, to get that other person on the roller coaster. I see it all the time. Andrea, we've talked about this. This is exactly why we're doing this episode.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (04:48)

The challenge still is that people can hear what we're saying right now, but you still can't stop reacting. how many times have we said you have to view this as a business transaction? I think we're risking people taking their earbuds out and like throwing them into Lake Michigan at this point, because they're like, my God, you guys, you say this all the time, but I don't know how to fucking do that. So that's what I want to learn in this conversation is what do you,

actually do. Side note, all I want for Christmas is Lois Lieberman to be my divorce attorney.

Lois Liberman (05:29)

we're all human when you're dealing with a total, you know,

whatever controlling, douchebag, soon to be ex-spouse, of course you're gonna react, but don't react to them, right? React, do primal scream, talk to your

let's talk about some tools, right? When you wanna send that email and calling them every name in the book, there are platforms that you can utilize. especially when you're dealing with manipulators,

who wanna retell the story or recast themselves as a victim or explain how the, you know, all of a sudden the reality is not what reality was. You wanna keep documentation. So there are these platforms like Our Family Wizard, right? That has tonal meters. So when you're writing the, you're being a fucking douchebag, I cannot believe you're doing this again, you're making my life miserable. will like, you know, do.

red light, don't say that kind of thing. ⁓ There are other people, you can send something to your lawyer first. mean, again, it's super expensive to keep for us to ghost write emails, but sometimes in the beginning of a situation, you kind of need the guidance, right? Send what you think you're about to send and let us take a look at it and like cut out all the stuff that is just you're emoting. You just wanna be able to say is, can you pick up Johnny at five o'clock?

from soccer, period, end of story. Not like, you know, last week you did this and you didn't do that and I need whatever, just that's what you need to say.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (07:02)

Let's talk about for a minute why that's so important. And I think people miss this because most people, Morgan talks about this all the time. It's hard to see the forest through the trees. You don't realize like, well, why can't I just tell him that he's a freaking idiot and that he keeps sending Johnny back in dirty clothes? Because it looks like you're doing a tit for tat game. And if your case ever goes before a judge, then you're gonna look like

just as much of an aggressor as your soon-to-be ex is. You mentioned our family wizard. We love our family wizard. We work very closely with our family wizard to the point where people are always asking us, like, why are you guys always talking about them? And it's because It's the most court-respected app when you're doing this. And you guys, you don't even have to be high conflict.

Lois Liberman (07:39)

Like you own some.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (07:49)

to use Our Family Wizard and to benefit from everything that Our Family Wizard can offer you. And side note, friends, if you use our Divorce Crash Course and if you're going through something high conflict, you better use the Divorce Crash Course. In there and only inside of the Divorce Crash Course, is there an embedded link to save 25 % off of your first year of Our Family Wizard. Morgan, what are your thoughts as far as

people not emotionally reacting because of how it can hurt them.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (08:23)

I have a lot of thoughts. it's super difficult not to emotionally react. And I also agree with Lois that it sometimes, I know it's expensive on the high end cases, it's warranted and they don't care to pay, but a lot of times us as divorce lawyers have to ghost write because what a client, because of all the emotionality going on, what they want to put an email, they think in their head like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Like this is totally appropriate and I'm going to look so

good if someone reads this. And then a divorce lawyer gets their hands on it they're like, my God, please don't send that. It looks horrible. It looks awful. And I wanted to tell a story. mean, recently I had a case and let's call him our favorite podcast couple, Chad and

I represented Brenda on this one. Okay. And Brenda, Brenda was in the right. Chad was doing things that were inappropriate, right? He wasn't the best dad, et cetera.

Lois Liberman (09:13)

I think.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (09:24)

and they were on our family wizard. So we were going to go back to court to do certain things for Brenda to remedy, the situation basically, right? The problem was, is that Brenda couldn't control her emotions. when he was baiting her and causing this manipulation, she thought she was creating evidence by sending these messages back on our family wizard. So what it ended up looking like was like, yeah, Chad,

You're a complete lunatic. You're a horrible dad. But Brenda, you are so A type. I think I would be a horrible dad if I was married or used to be married to you and I'm co-parenting with you because you are so annoying and up Chad's business at all times. So she looked just as bad. getting back to manipulation, I just had a call with a client today because we had Chad throwing a temper tantrum. And what was he doing? He was hammer calling Brenda.

over and over again because he wanted to get her on the phone. And he wanted to get her on the phone because the phone is so much easier to get the manipulation going. And what did I tell her? I said, I know he's calling over and over. I know he's sending you crazy text messages. We got to get on the phone. I got to talk to you. Don't answer the call. You're busy. You're busy.

Lois Liberman (10:35)

Well, that's the whole boundary thing, Especially when you're dealing with these kind of emotional vampires, you need to set the boundary of, will answer you one email once a day, you know? Unless there's an emergency, I don't have to keep staccato responding to you because you're sending me over and over, or you're texting me over and over. You can, it's almost like the same of when they get to FaceTime your child or whatever at between five and six.

That's when you're going to respond to them at between 10 and 11 at night or something like that. They don't get to basically hijack your day, right? They lost that right when you're getting divorced.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (11:14)

And what you're both saying is that by controlling when you respond, it's that first step in, I guess, no, that's not the first step. The first step would be not having an emotional implosion or explosion, right, to whatever they're saying to you. The second step would be how and when you're responding. So it's not that she says, call me right back, Chad, and Chad has to call her right back. Brenda is no longer the boss of Chad. So Chad does not.

Lois Liberman (11:30)

Right.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (11:42)

have to do what Brenda says when Brenda says to do it. That's the other thing that people really like about Our Family Wizard actually is that you can program it so you only get those messages at a certain time of the day. And it's not at 9.30 in the morning when you're sitting on your first conference call. But I want to go back to this idea of out-manipulating because

But from the way that I see it, somebody feels like they're losing. Somebody feels like this person, let's say I'm Chad and I'm divorcing Brenda and I feel like Brenda is super charming and manipulative. And everybody thinks that Brenda is so nice and so fantastic and makes me look like such a dick.

And let's say there's something that I want and Brenda is saying, you're never gonna get that. So I come to you, Lois, because I've hired you and I say, feel like Brenda has a leg up on this whole thing and nobody is gonna like me. I'm not gonna look credible. What does Chad do?

Lois Liberman (12:54)

Well, it depends on the expectations of what he's looking for, right? mean, you're never gonna, people come all the time. They're like, wait till you meet my spouse. Everyone loves them. The marriage counselor loved them, this one. And I'm the one that ends up like blowing up because I'm watching what they're doing because at behind closed doors, they're the total douche bag. But to everybody else, they're the loveliest person. You just have to figure out what is it that we're looking for? I mean, the problem is,

there are no winners in a divorce situation. The question is, how can we ensure that you are as less miserable as possible and that we're trying to ensure that the kids are protected in some fashion, right? So this zero sum game, like there's gonna be a winner all the time, not everything has to be a fight. questions are, like, so when you say Chad's coming to me and he's saying Brenda's the charming one,

but I need to get what I'm looking for and I need to win something. The question is, what are we talking about? Are you looking to get reasonable time with your child? I can achieve that for you. And we just have to go about it in an appropriate fashion. If Brenda's like, sorry, because you can't, know, have the children have to stay with me every night because they have to stay in our house and that's never, that's gonna be horrible for them. I mean, like I recently with a case.

The wife was basically saying our child cannot be happy unless there's a happy mom. And therefore you have to do everything possible to make me happy because you cheated on me and you did this and you do that. But until you acknowledge this and basically self-flagellate, I'm never gonna be happy and therefore our daughter's not gonna be happy. That's a crazy email. And she wrote it, right? So that'll be a wonderful evidence at some point.

But the question is, what is the thing that you're expecting? So part of my job is to counsel clients to determine whether or not what they're looking for is reasonable. Is it in the best interest of their child? Is it appropriate in the context of the divorce situation for Chad to think, because I worked during our marriage the entire time, and therefore most of the assets are mine.

And therefore my win is because I want 75 % of the assets, I'm gonna tell him that's not the way the law works, right? So what is the win? If the win is I wanna make sure that I see my child during Memorial Day weekend, or that's an appropriate request. Or if it's not Memorial Day weekend, we're gonna get them on July 4th. But so the question is, we need to assess whether or not what our client is looking for is reasonable.

appropriate and something we can achieve. Not everything is going to be a win or a loss. And sometimes you have to like let it ride in some way. Not everything has to be a fight or cause celeb. The fact that Chad has a business trip and after we went through the arduous task of getting Chad the appropriate.

parental access schedule that he was looking for and now he has to move it because he's got a business trip or a family event. We can try to achieve that and if not, then next time Brenda needs some adjustment, we're going to ensure that we're not going to do it for her, right? It's just a that's the flexibility and the aspect of we need to work together ultimately. And if we're not, then we're going to rely on the specifics of what our agreement says.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (16:22)

So Andrea, you kind of came back to the question of how do you out manipulate a manipulator? And I know we're a podcast full of action steps. the simple answer is how do you out manipulate a manipulator in my mind is stay in control. That's the first thing. So I want you to take a piece of paper and I want you to draw a line down the middle. On the left-hand side, I want you to write out four things that you're going to do.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (16:34)

Thank

Morgan L. Stogsdill (16:46)

when somebody is trying to manipulate you. for instance, number one, when they call or text, give it X amount of time before a response. Maybe it could be like an hour or two, something long enough to let them know that they're not riling you up. The second thing you would want to say is, is this truly an emergency? You want to determine, is this truly an emergency?

If somebody is not in the hospital or on the way to the hospital or the house is not on fire, it is not likely an emergency, but they're trying to make it an emergency. Why? To suck you into the chaos. So you need to identify that. So I want you to identify your plan as to when this is happening, what you're going to do. And that would be on the left-hand side. On the right-hand side, what I think would be great to manage your thoughts when this is happening is write all the reasons this person may be trying to manipulate you.

Is it to get a leg up? Is it money? Is it to try to split you from your attorney, which we've talked about a lot on this podcast? Is it because they don't like potentially who you've hired? Maybe they think you have a new spouse, a new boyfriend, a new girlfriend. All these reasons are reasons as to why when you're looking at the left-hand side to determine whether it's an emergency, whether it ...

the response is necessary. You also need to say, why am I getting this information and this manipulation? That in and of itself, if you keep that paper or the note on your phone, when this is happening, you are going to feel so much more in control. Because remember, that is how you out-manipulate a manipulator.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (18:20)

I love that because you took something very emotional and you made it logical. And I think that's exactly what people in this situation need. They need to be able to, it goes back to what Lois said at the very beginning. How do you look at this as a business? Business, it's not emotional, it's logical. So we have to, and we just did an episode where it was all about feeling less and thinking more.

By having that sheet of paper, it puts you in the thinking part of your brain. Why is this happening? You also mentioned chaos. People who want control intentionally will drag you into chaos because historically, we do not make good decisions in a state of chaos. So it's at their advantage for you to be in this emotional windstorm.

that they created so that they can then get whatever done and you're still over there spiraling. So, Lois, what are some cost-effective ways that somebody can partner with their attorney to get this done? Because, you know, before you guys mentioned, ⁓ have the attorney help you ghostwrite, I'm going to tell everybody that unless you are,

with hanging out with Mariah

you likely can't afford for your attorney to help you ghost write a lot of your emails. I would say an email, maybe one really important email, have them take a look at it. But at Lois Lieberman's rate and at Morgan's rate, y'all are going to be living out of a shoe box if you have your attorney ghost write everything for you.

Lois Liberman (20:02)

You can.

You can use the different chat GBTs or copilot and literally say, make this brief, informative, friendly, and firm. The BIF an acronym or whatever. BIF, right? And you can literally write out your email and literally ask copilot or whatever it is that you're using Jeff GBT and say, make it brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (20:16)

We love Biff.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (20:31)

to tell you a funny story about ChatGBT because we like to tell our listeners it's a tool, but it certainly does not replace a lawyer. And in fact, at times it can give you pretty bad advice. But one thing it can do is you can effectively upload. And again, be careful with the open AI. And if you don't know what open AI is, I just caution you to be using AI at all. And you got to figure out what open AI is. But what I would suggest is at times we have closed AI in the firm.

And so meaning we can upload documents securely, it's not a problem, it stays in one place. I have actually taken our family wizard messages, run them through AI and said, tell me which parent looks more insane. Tell me which parent looks like a manipulator. I know. So I had to do it once because I had to have a tough conversation with a client and tell this client that it was a Chad and I said, Chad,

How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:17)

This sounds like a drinking game.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (21:27)

You look insane. I've told you to stop acting like this. I've told you to stop putting this on our family wizard. And you think I'm insane for telling you that you're looking insane. So you know what? I ran it through our AI system and I said, tell me who looks like the manipulator and the more inappropriate parent. And it said Chad, 100%. So if you're wondering, is it me or is it them? You can use a system like that to run through your messages and say, can you talk to me, Chad GBT about

how each parent is looking, whether either parent looks inappropriate or they're saying inappropriate things. That's a way to really kind of get a little piece of humble pie.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (22:05)

what I'm getting from this is that the number one thing that you can do to out-manipulate the manipulator is to not fall for their tactics. Beyond that, let's talk about my least favorite game of chess that is always brought up when it comes to divorce and it makes me cringe and gag at the same time. Does chess come in

to this at all.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (22:30)

Absolutely.

Lois Liberman (22:31)

I

Morgan L. Stogsdill (22:31)

But you can't play chess until you know all the players, you know what's at stake, and you're in control of your emotions and the manipulation. So I would never send a client who's in a crazy emotional state because they're feeding into this manipulation into a chess match. That would be horrible. That's why I say

To out-manipulate somebody, you have to be in control. That's why that piece of paper can help you regulate and get in control. Then once we're in control, we start to look at that right-hand side of the paper as to why they're trying to manipulate us, and we use it to our advantage in the chess game.

Lois Liberman (23:04)

you also have to figure out what are your goals, right? You need to understand what your client's ultimate goals are it's the long game and the short game, right? What am I trying to achieve in the long run? Is it,

I wanna make sure my child is enriched and is going to many extracurricular activities that are good for them. And I wanna ensure that my co-parent are appropriately contributing. If they suggest an activity, it doesn't always have to be as no, that's stupid or whatever. You can assess it, because sometimes they just need to have some...

feeling like that they were involved in it in the decision, right? So again, what is your ultimate goal? It's not to make sure that you're always quote unquote winning, but I want to ensure that my spouse is paying for appropriate activities for my child after school or for camp or when we're selecting a private school that we are considering their option as well, unless that option is batshit crazy

Morgan L. Stogsdill (23:52)

Okay.

Lois Liberman (24:03)

then of course you take that off the list. But sometimes they have to just, their selection or their input has to be considered as an option. Because the long game is I want my child to be in private school, have extracurricular activities, be in summer camp. And if that's my long goal, I need to ensure that we are

doing the, I'm practicing the long chess game versus the short.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (24:28)

along the lines of people being bat shit crazy. My favorite topic. Lois, you mentioned, ⁓ well, both of you mentioned before we started recording that it's been a week over here in the land of family law. So if we can pull back the curtain a little bit and help.

Lois Liberman (24:31)

You

How Not To Suck At Divorce (24:47)

our listeners be better clients because being a better client means that their bill might be a whole lot lower and they might get just a little bit closer to what they want. So Lois, what is something that you wish your clients would do that most clients do not do?

Lois Liberman (25:04)

You know, look, I think that especially when we're dealing with kids, I think sometimes, especially when it comes to access schedules, kids don't count the hours that they're with their parents. The parents are counting the hours that they're with their parents. So

understanding what your children's needs are, you know, and thinking it from their point of view, I wish sometimes they were doing that all the time. Because a lot of issues sometimes that we are dealing with is, although it may be child related, it's really about our client and not about the

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:35)

Yeah, that's so hard to do. I'll be the first one to say it. Nobody wants to admit that they're putting their needs before their kids' needs. The problem is that we don't know how to stop feeling. And when you have a child and you have a baby and you bring that baby home from the hospital, I've used this story many times,

You never think that one day you're going to be signing legal documents that says when you're going to have access and when you're not going to have access to that baby. And that loss of control makes us go wild. And it's so hard to think clearly through that very innately wrong feeling.

And it'll take the most sane person and make them do crazy things. mean, Morgan, how many times have you seen this in your office where you meet someone and let's say the beginning of the case, you're like, yeah, I've got a really solid level headed client here. And then something comes up with the kids and all of a sudden the bottom falls out and their head revolves around like death becomes her. And you're like, what happened?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (26:54)

I would like to think that I'm a good judge of character after 20 years of doing this. So I would like to think that I can see ooh, we've got issues with this one, or there could be issues with this one. ⁓ I would say only about 10 % of clients do I not see it coming, and it happens. And those are the ones that we're just taken aback by. We're like, whoa, what just happened here? But for the most part, I would say ...

Most good divorce lawyers can kind of index the client coming in, figure out their needs, figure out who's the best attorney or associate or team or whoever to put on that. I mean, we do those kinds of things to make the process and divorce process that much easier for the client because we try to match up the good personalities with that client's personality. But one of the things you asked me, Andrea, going back to it, what is one of the things that you wish your clients would do that most clients don't do? And I've got two answers.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (27:48)

The first thing that we always talk about is I wish more clients put timelines together for their attorney, depending on whatever the issue is. If the issue is, want to keep the house and they don't want me to, I want a timeline of all the relevant facts that go along with that issue, just because it, one, it saves you money, but also it helps us as lawyers put together a really good case and an argument. The second thing I wish clients would do is when you're getting

into the thick of your divorce. You're prepping for mediation. You've got a hearing or a trial date coming. I want you to use your attorney more than less at this point. That's when it's so important to be on the phone strategizing. That will calm your nerves. A lot of people shy away from it because they don't want to have to pay for it, and I get it, but that's not the time that you should be saving money.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (28:35)

So when do you save money?

Lois Liberman (28:35)

I think that's a great.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (28:37)

I think point one, you save money on timelines. You save money on not using your attorney as a therapist if you don't have the money to do it. But you don't save money when your divorce is at a crucial turning point or when you need to understand the process so you can make the best decision for yourself.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (28:54)

And if you need help figuring out what the hell is a timeline and where can I see a template for one? Well, guess what? It is in the Divorce Crash Course.

So a timeline, just for anyone who's brand new to this podcast, a timeline is the easiest and most effective way to organize the facts because a divorce case runs on facts, not your feelings. So what Morgan is saying is by

helping your attorney put together these timelines, you're going to save money because then they're not chasing you for every single detail of evidence to support whatever it is that you want. The other thing that I'll say attached to that, which ties in what Lois has been saying is your want has to be realistic. So if you come in guns blazing with, I want full custody.

and I want a unicorn and a pink parasol, well, I hope for you that they sell pink parasols at TJ Maxx because that might be the only thing out of those three things that you're getting. I've never seen a unicorn and I very rarely see somebody stomp into court and say, I want full custody. And they say, ⁓ okay, here.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (30:46)

I don't have a response to that, you're right.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (30:48)

I mean, I'm done.

Lois Liberman (30:49)

You're

absolutely right.

You know what, look, I think at least I know that both Morgan and I are the kind of attorneys who will set up realistic expectations for our clients. We don't just blow smoke up their tush because we want them to hire us or because we're trying to turn the case. We're trying to get them from point A to point B in the shortest period possible and getting them the best result that we can get for them. We're going to set up their expectations.

the way that we see it and based upon our experience of the situation. But sometimes, especially when we get into situations when there is a really coercively controlling or significantly malevolent narcissist on the other side, that we are gonna get stuck in the vortex and then we need help by a judge to help us guide through the process in some fashion. But for our circumstances,

We want to ensure that we are able as a team be able to present the best case possible to get them the result that we need or want.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (31:49)

I'd love to close this conversation with a powerful one-liner for everybody to remember because I know that somebody listening to this episode in particular is likely feeling like they are weighted down and somebody else is calling the shots, right? They are the puppet, they are not the puppeteer, and they're feeling overwhelmed.

They're feeling scared. They're irritated. They're frustrated. And I think that as helpful as I hope our podcast is, I also know that sometimes, mean, we've been on the air for about 30 minutes or so. Sometimes even a 30 minute conversation can feel like too much for somebody. They're like, okay, okay, okay. Just tell me what you want me to do. What do you want me to do? So Morgan, I'll give it to you first, girl.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (32:42)

Mm-hmm.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (32:44)

What do you want them to do?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (32:45)

Number one, if it's happening to you, I want you to out-manipulate. And the way that you out-manipulate a manipulator is to get your control back right away, because you're going to try to go into that vortex. It's just human nature, especially when you're going through this. You want to get your control back. The way I suggest you do that is that piece of paper. You put that line down the middle. On the left-hand side, you're going to write a protocol for what you're going to do when you start getting this manipulation.

And want you to do a protocol that you can stand by. On the right hand side, I want you to write down all the potential reasons that your spouse or your ex could be trying to manipulate you. I don't even care if it's a nuts reason that is like, because aliens are coming from outer space. If you think that could be a real thing and that's why your spouse is doing it, or he hates my parents so much, or she hates my parents so much, she would do this to me. Put it down there because...

I want a big list there so that when you're getting manipulated, you're one in control, but you're looking on the right-hand side to say, why is this potentially happening?

How Not To Suck At Divorce (33:46)

Love the alien reference. mean, you really one-upped my pink parasol. Lois, what do you got for us?

Lois Liberman (33:52)

Look, I think that the non-reactivity issue is probably the hardest, but it's going to be the best advice. And from the standpoint of every time this manipulating spouse is contacting you, you need to take a moment. Don't answer immediately. You need to think about what you need, what you're looking to achieve in this transaction.

because everything's a transaction and ensure that you are as boring as possible in your response. Focus on logistics, focus on the information,

when they say I wanna drop Johnny off at 12, even though I'm supposed to drop him off at seven, you can respond, that's not working for me.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (34:39)

love that you said be boring. Be uninteresting because uninteresting doesn't add fuel to the fire and people don't want to do that. We want to have the last word. We want to add fuel because that makes us feel good in the moment. But it's also gonna make this thing a whole lot more expensive and you're gonna look like a dummy.

I'm going to add something to the list, just like I said at the very beginning of this conversation. If you've got anxiety, you probably don't need another iced coffee. So don't have it. Just think, is this response going to help me? Am I going to feel better or am I going to feel worse in the long run? You know, I joked that, you know, ⁓ anxiety and iced coffee is just like divorce and manipulation. And there's truth to that because it's going to happen. You're going to be manipulated.

They go together. You're gonna have that afternoon ice coffee. We all do. But can you think before? Can we think about how we're responding to this manipulation? Are you playing into it or by doing the opposite, are you stopping it? I mean, isn't that what physics is? I'm no scientist, but I feel like if we're stopping the motion, then you're not going to be steamrolled.

right, as opposed to getting in the middle of the road and lying down.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (35:58)

Right, because people just engage more if they're getting the response they want, the chaos back. If you're boring, like Lois said, that's going to be boring. Like, I'm not going to bother you. Or you take a while to respond. That's not fun. If I'm amped up, I want to amp you up. And I want it to happen right away. And if you don't respond for two hours, I've probably gone on and done my other things. I'm like, well, OK. They responded two hours later. Well, I'm on to something else.

Lois Liberman (36:24)

And they don't have to hijack your life anymore. you're no longer a couple unless, as Morgan was saying earlier, there's somebody's in the hospital, the house is on fire, something emergent needs to be done

they don't need to hijack your time. They don't own you anymore and they don't own your time. taking stock in being grounded in knowing that you matter as well you can say your piece very succinct

focusing on logistics and being firm about what you're saying, because what they're looking for is the reaction. They're looking for continued conversation and communication. Just don't give it to them. And it'll stop at some point.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (37:04)

And the reason why they're doing this is because they no longer really have control over you. It's because it's ending and they're scared. If somebody's not scared, they're not going to try to grab control. So you almost have to tell yourself, wait, they're doing this because what I'm already doing is a threat to them. And let that puff you up a little bit and give you

that power that you need to keep going. Listen to your attorney. Do not let your soon-to-be ex split you from the person who is going to help you navigate your way to the other side of the mountain. Make notes. Stick to facts. Facts are going to get you through this, puppy, not your feelings.

and I

got to get our butts, or our tushes as you said, out to New York as soon as possible so that we can all go to lunch with Mariah Carey.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (38:01)

you

Lois Liberman (38:02)

love to see you guys. what you're doing is really wonderful work to help people out there because just this kind of resource is so, life affirming. So thank you guys for doing it.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (38:14)

Thank you, Lois.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (38:14)

Thank you, Lois.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (38:15)

you know what I was thinking when she was talking Mariah Carey's song, Why You So Obsessed With Me.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (38:22)

Oh my God, that is the best comeback if somebody is harassing you Why are you so obsessed with me?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (38:30)

I want you to download Mariah Carey, Why You So Obsessed With Me. It is so good. It is so on point. And then to have Lois here, what a thing. Okay. one thing she said that is so true, and I don't think we say it enough, is she said, matter too. And it's so true because you don't think about that when you're in this manipulation, in this vortex where you're so amped up.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (38:51)

Mm-hmm.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (38:52)

You don't think about the fact that you matter too and you shouldn't be feeling like this or feeding into it. think back to the steps and the action items that I gave you today, which is to draw the piece of paper, draw that line down, do the left side, do the right side. I promise you the next time that you are getting manipulated or at least you think it's coming, I want you to go back to that paper because it will calm you immediately.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (39:14)

Every time you said, when you kept saying, draw that line down, it made me think of draw a line in the sand. And that is exactly what you're doing. it stops here. The manipulation stops here. And that is the best way to out-manipulate someone. Don't let it work. Don't get on the roller coaster.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (39:24)

Right.

One of the things I wanted to ask you though, Andrea, because I came up with this song that was going through my head the whole time. When you drop our Instagram reel for this episode, will you please use that music?

How Not To Suck At Divorce (39:45)

Hmm.

Yes. Yes. Because I too want to know why are you so obsessed with me? But you know who I'm obsessed with? Our listeners. We are obsessed with you. We love you. Sean from Tampa. Cannot give you a big enough shout out, my friend.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (39:48)

Okay, all right, I'm feeling good about it now.

I mean, obviously.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (40:06)

Guys, fly on into our inbox. We are here. If you learned something from this conversation, if there is one tiny little moment that stood out to you and you thought,

Huh, that could really help me. Do you know what would help us? If you leave us a review. Reviews mean so much for podcasts. We do this show because we want to help as many people as we possibly can. You know, I joked around before that if people have your attorneys ghost write all of your emails that they're going to be living in a shoe box. That's why we do this podcast for free.

because we want you to have access to information that you don't have to go and pay for. So the way that we keep the lights on in this place is through our fantastic sponsors and all of our products and everything else that we offer. And the way that we keep that going is by reviews.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (41:04)

And it's confidential. You don't have to put your name on there. Just go hit the five star, write something nice, please. And we'll...

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:10)

Link your name is

Mariah Carey, we'll know it's you.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (41:18)

divorce is a marathon. It is not a sprint. Every day is not a good day, and that is okay. Some days it's day by day, and other days it's hour by hour, and you're hanging on. But guess what? You're in it. You're doing it, and you're going to get through it.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:32)

And my friends, remember, you have got this.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (41:36)

And we have got you.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:39)

You will always be my baby and we'll linger on