00:00:00

Dave Male: We're not saying, oh, let's get rid of everything we're doing and start with a blank piece of paper. But we're saying, are there people with vision and passion who, alongside this could try some experiments, try something different and see what happens from there. And recognizing those two things are important that, um, actually we need something that's got that, that, that holds that tradition strongly. Um, but we also need those kind of experiments because, um, we live in a changing world, uh, changing demographic demographics. Um, and, and things don't stay the way they are. But I think the key to all that is finding the people with a passion for that. And then, particularly if your church leaders are investing in those people and giving them permission to try some of these things.

00:00:54

Dwight Zscheile: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Pivot Podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile, and I'm joined today by Terri Elton.

00:01:05

Terri Elton: On the Pivot podcast. We discuss what we believe are four key pivots that God is calling many churches to make in this 21st century. They are a pivot in posture from primarily fixing institutional problems to listening and discerning where God is leading a pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from one size fits all models of ministry, to a mixed ecology of an inherited and new forms working together. And a pivot in leadership from predominantly clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry.

00:01:46

Dwight Zscheile: Many church leaders today are wrestling with a critical question how do we meaningfully connect with people beyond our church walls? The old programs and outreach strategies that worked for decades aren't having the same impact. But what if the path forward isn't about creating new programs at all? What if it starts with learning to be present in our neighborhoods in new ways, listening deeply to our communities, and creating spaces where authentic relationships can flourish?

00:02:14

Terri Elton: Today, we're joined by the Reverend Canon Dave Male, who has been helping churches across England make exactly this kind of pivot. As the former director of Evangelism and Discipleship, and now the co-director of Vision and Strategy for the Church of England. Dave has guided countless congregations in moving from program driven outreach to relationship based ministry through his pioneering work with fresh expressions of church and training of leaders. He's discovered practical pathways for churches to meet people where they are in workplaces, neighborhoods, and everyday gathering Says he's also hosting a free webinar with us on February 25th called Beyond the Walls Simple Pathways to Meeting Neighbors with the gospel. Register at Faithlead.org, workshop. Beyond the walls. Welcome, Dave.

00:03:14

Dave Male: Oh, no. Great. Thank you, Terri and Dwight. Great to be with you again.

00:03:17

Dwight Zscheile: So, Dave, what led you to become passionate about helping churches move beyond their walls to reach their neighbors?

00:03:24

Dave Male: Well, I think probably two experiences. Um, one was actually about my own discovery of the Christian faith. So, uh, when I was a ten year old boy, not much contact with church. Um, some people came to my town, uh, to do a kind of children's mission type thing. Uh, I didn't want to go to the religious bit, but there was sport in the afternoon, so that's what attracted me. And then I kind of began to find out more about the Christian faith. And I think I always have always thought, wow, if those people, because none of them lived in my town, hadn't come to where I was, um, what might have happened? I would never have heard about this. Um, and then I think the other thing was the first church. I've been ordained for over 30 years now. The first church I was involved in, in a large social housing area. It was a great church, but really the people wanted to run the church for themselves, that that they were the kind of the key markets, as it were. And they did a great job of it. But actually they they wouldn't they weren't willing to change anything, uh, for, for the 10,000 other people who were living on that large social housing estate. And I think I, I grew very frustrated that actually, um, there were all these people that we just were not making contact with. And we discovered as well that in in that area, people didn't travel very far. I think they did some studies show they travel two streets and we never even asked the question. Well, having just one church service is not going to is not going to connect with these people. So that personal experience and then that kind of very formative early church experience as a leader, I think, uh, were the things that it led to that thing of there must be a better way of doing this. And that's often the way innovation works. I think that sense of, um, this isn't really working and there must be a better way.

00:05:25

Terri Elton: So these pivots that we talked about sound great, but they're kind of hard to actually embody. So can you share with us a story of a congregation that's kind of that successfully shifted from relying on traditional programs to creating these kind of spaces for connection?

00:05:45

Dave Male: Yes. Um, a couple of stories. Probably. One is, uh, here in the east of England, which is a very rural area and actually one of my old students who was involved in kind of large church planting. It absolutely exhausted him. And, uh, it they planted about 6 or 7, uh, churches. But he he got to the point of thinking that there must be a different way of doing this, because this is just taking so much out of us and so much resources, and we can't do this across the whole of England. We just couldn't afford it. So he started a thing that he calls the Garden Church Network, which is really getting people, uh, to meet in homes, uh, and to, uh, create authentic relationships with people there often as well, linked into, uh, stuff outside in the garden. Um, and they've been doing that for about three years. And it's, it's very much a kind of, uh, the leader doesn't come and do the stuff. It's very much a place for discussion, for being honest, for meeting around a meal, uh, that kind of thing. Um, and, uh, they've now got, I think there are about, Out um, 30 of these groups operating across, uh, the East of England, um, with hundreds of people now beginning to come to those. But a massive change from something that's, uh, was kind of big and expensive to something that's very simple, very simple leadership. Uh, and actually, uh, we're trying to do this. I'm in a little church on the edge of, uh, the city of Cambridge in a rural area, five, uh, small churches. Uh, and we've started a we started a service in our, um, village hall rather than the church, because actually it was warm and there was kitchen facilities. Uh, and are the five churches have really no children coming to them. So we wanted to start something that was intergenerational. But Sunday night we were talking together about six of us leaders about starting. We decided once a month isn't really helping people to become disciples. So what could we do about that? And, uh, We've started talking about how do we create a kind of place where we come together around a meal to talk about what does it mean to be an apprentice of Jesus, and what would that look like? Both with people who were followers of Jesus, but also with people who are not and curious about that? Um, so we're just as, as I said, a small church, um, probably less than 100 people go to church across the five churches. Um, but really trying to see, uh, well, we recognize things really need to change. Uh, if we're to connect, particularly with younger families, uh, in this area of which there are a lot, but none come to the churches.

00:08:30

Dwight Zscheile: So, Dave, one of the things I hear you describing is a shift in focus from what we might describe as stages or maybe in like higher church settings, chancels to tables as the focus. So rather than how do we get people to come and listen to or, you know, observe certain rituals or sermons or performances led by clergy, often on stages or possession positions, whatever it is. How do we gather around tables? Um, I'm curious about the role of listening in that kind of journey of developing these new forms of church.

00:09:06

Dave Male: Yeah, I think listening is really important. So it's partly about listening to God. So what is God asking of us? And prayer, I think, is just fundamental. Anything I see where things are happening, somewhere someone will say to me, and we've been praying about this for the last few weeks or months. So that's key. Um, listening to the community. So what is it that we know about our community and where are people at and how is their movement within our community? Where are people on a Monday morning and a Saturday afternoon and that kind of thing? And I think also listening to each other. Um, what is it that we're feeling and what is it that God's prompting us to do? And of course, listening isn't just something you do at the beginning and then you never listen again. It is an ongoing thing and, um, it's very much starting something. But carrying on that, listening, adapting, changing. Um, and I think there is a really interesting balance. I call it the art of the start. Um, between I meet some people who want to listen so much they never actually start anything, and other people who kind of zoom straight in in their enthusiasm without really listening and thinking about what they're doing. And it's it's trying to find that sweet spot where we've done enough, listening to kind of know the basic shape of what we're trying to do, but also recognising we're not going to know everything at the beginning. And there is something experimental about this, so let's try it in this form for three months and and see what happens from there.

00:10:42

Terri Elton: So I can imagine churches That are comfortable in their inherited structures. Finding this a little bit tricky. Right. So how would you help churches balance this inherited form of ministry and these exploratory innovation or innovative approaches that, like you said, we don't know stuff at the beginning and we have to learn.

00:11:10

Dave Male: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I initially would say it's actually part of the church's history. This has always happened. Um, and that kind of innovation as, as has been something that has continued, you know, the church we have now isn't the church, uh, that it was 100 years ago or 200 years. So someone has come along and changed things and innovated. And I think there is some there is an important balance of those two things of, uh, what is happening, but also what could be happening. Um, it's really interesting reading the work of John Kotter, who's written so much on change. And, but he then has kind of slightly changed his his own views, I think, in terms of trying to change organizations completely. And he in his book accelerate, he talks about having a kind of dual operating system. And I think that's what we're looking for. We're not saying, oh, let's get rid of everything we're doing and start with a blank piece of paper. But we're saying, are there people with vision and passion who alongside this could try some experiments, try something different and see what happens from there. And recognizing those two things are important that, um, actually we need something that's got that, that that holds that tradition strongly. Um, but we also need those kind of experiments because, um, we live in a changing, world changing demographic demographics. Um, and, and things don't stay the way they are. But I think the key to all that is finding the people with a passion for that. And then, particularly if you're church leaders investing in those people and giving them permission to try some of these things.

00:12:53

Dwight Zscheile: Well, so let's talk about some of the common fears or resistance points that you encounter when helping churches embrace more of a mixed ecology approach, or a dual operating system approach where there's both inherited and innovative forms of church coexisting? Um, what are those fears and resistance points? And if we put a kind of most sympathetic view on them, you know, approach to them, what do you think is at stake for people in those?

00:13:22

Dave Male: Yeah, I mean, I think we I think most of us struggle with change. Um, and if we've been in a, in a church for a long time, there is that real sense of, um, you know, this is how it should be. This is how it is. So, um, you know, I think that the kind of, uh, liturgy of, as it was in the beginning is now and shall be forever. Uh, can easily become the liturgy of the church, uh, in terms of its practices. Um, so it's recognizing that, um, uh, actually this is changed and that makes people feel uncomfortable. And how do we we can't stop that, but how do we help with that sense of change? Um, so, for instance, here, the traditional congregation were very reticent about what we were trying to do. And one of the things we talked to them about, well, I've talked to them about is saying one of your big concerns is that there's a church here for the next generation. And that's actually our concern as well. And that's we're actually trying to work the same thing. We're just doing it in slightly different ways. So I think it's finding ways to kind of help with that sense of what this is about and what and why we're doing this. Um, I think there's some theological fears that this isn't somehow proper church. Um, you know, and we've all got our default of what proper church looks like. Um, and it's often out of our own experience. Um, but it's helping people to understand. Well, go back and think theologically. What is church? And how does this how is this church? Um, and I think alongside that sometimes is the whole leadership thing. Well, how do we know these people won't lead this new thing into some crazy place or crazy ideas? Um, and there's something there I think about kind of, uh, authorization and training and helping leaders. Um, I think often I don't know if it's the same in America, but in England, it's often about finance. This is going to cost us money. And it's it's the traditional people that are paying for these fun experiments. Um, we're actually if you're doing something around a table and a meal, the cost is absolutely minimal. I think that's one of the amazing things of these, because you're not having to get a building a band, uh, you know, uh, digital projector, all these kind of things. Actually, it's it's pretty simple. Um, and I think there's a fear that it won't work. Um, you know, there's the classic church. Well, we've tried things before and they've never worked. Um, and I think it's that recognition of it may not work, but actually, we really have listened to God and to community and each other and feel this is what God's calling us to do. Um, and so we want to do that. Um, and I think it is that kind of using that language of experimental is, is really important and recognizing the place of, uh, of tradition within that, you know, that, uh, actually, it's only because of the tradition that we can try these other things that the two things are interrelated. It's not that we're going to try something new and let's forget all that's gone before. Actually, it's always the new thing comes out of the tradition. That's that's the kind of the way that these things work.

00:16:53

Terri Elton: So I'm thinking about that pastor that was burnt out that you talked about earlier. And if I'm a leader listening to this and I'm it might be on the edge of that when you talk about doing experimenting or fresh expressions on the side, I just get tired. Right. That that burnout gets even more tired. And I think the role of lay leadership is so important in these new forms of church. But as the train leader, it often just feels overwhelming. So talk about the role of lay leadership and speak both to the professional or the full time kind of trained person. And what does it mean to invite this fresh leadership right into it. So kind of talk about both of those.

00:17:42

Dave Male: Yeah. I mean, we're recognizing that, uh, lay leadership is absolutely key. And in the Church of England, we're investing millions of pounds into training of lay leaders because we just see that is so essential. And I think there is something about, uh, that church leader, uh, the paid leader seeing their role moving from I have to do everything to actually, I have to find the people or release the people to do the things that they're called to. And I think, as I said to you earlier, it's a for me as a church leader, it's finding the people with passion. So when I was thinking about what we were doing here, a young couple turned up with two young children with a real passion for intergenerational church. And in a way, all I'm doing is following their coattails. I'm letting them go and say, you tell me how to do this, and, uh, you know, and I'll support you and we'll do it together. So I think, I think that's really, really important. And if we're talking about relationships, there are some figures from the UK again, and I doubt they're that different in America, which said that 1% of the population in the UK knows a church leader and 66% of people know a Christian. So you suddenly realise the role of a leader is to release those people that have all those contacts and relationships. Um, and, and I think that is absolutely key. And what we're seeing in, in England now is a real a real a raft of training for, um, for lay leaders. I mean, there's probably we're just talking about tonight we were in I was in a meeting about all this kind of thing with national leaders, and there are probably 7 or 8 different courses now nationally that are promoting ladyship, training them, uh, enabling them to, to lead these kind of communities. So I think that that's really important. And alongside that, because I said the whole thing about, you know, what will they do and what might they wreck is there is something there about authorisation, um, which might be at a local level or a wider level. And the role, again, of the kind of, uh, of the minister I think is very much to how do I support and release and enable these people to to follow their passion, um, and, and protect them at times, because there will be times at which they get criticised. Uh, and actually, that's key then for the leader to come alongside. No. You know, I'm really supporting them. They're doing the right thing. Uh, we need to keep going with this. So absolutely, the role of of lay leaders, I think is totally essential if this is is really going to work because so many of our leaders are stretched. Exhausted. Um, and the other thing I often say to them is, if you get your lay leaders doing this, you can you've got then more time to do the things you want to do and give you life. Um, and I think that's really important because I think often our leaders are doing lots of things that don't give them life. So here, if these people are doing this for you, you've got your time back to do the kind of stuff that that you love doing in ministry and that and that is life giving for you.

00:21:08

Dwight Zscheile: So I want to explore with you a bit the relationship between events and relationships. And, you know, a lot of times, at least in the past, churches have very much focused on outreach events which might lead to relationships, but there's certainly not relationship forward in terms of the way they're designed. Often. But, um, what you're describing in terms of some of these new contextual Christian communities are very much initially about relationship. Maybe often, maybe where there is some relationship that already exists. Um, and, and then they build from there. Tell us a bit about that.

00:21:43

Dave Male: Yeah. I think I mean, in one way I think that there is absolutely nothing new. I think that all actually, uh, everything we're doing is about relationship. It's ultimately about relationship with God and then relationship with each other. And somehow we've got it into our heads that it's about programs or events and, you know, programs and events have a role, as you said. But actually, we could put on loads of stuff that no one turns up to. Um, and it's, it's it's about relationships. Um, we were talking about this when we were doing some planning on Sunday night, and I was saying to people, no, we're not even if we have the world's greatest publicity and website, uh, no one will turn up because they've seen the publicity and website. They'll turn up because you asked them to come, and they know you and they trust you. So I think that is the key. I mean, I often use this phrase of love relate, creates. And I think that for me is absolutely crucial in this. So it starts from the fact that we are loved by God. Um, and that love is always a sending out love that calls us to love others. Um, it leads to relationships with people that are, you know, deep and meaningful relationships, not just because people are targets or we need to get people to something. Um, but out of that comes this thing of, well, okay, I know this person really well, what how can I help them to kind of connect with with Jesus? What would that look like? What would help them in that? Where are the places of connection, both in terms of geography and their interests and passions and stuff? Um, and I suddenly realized that that was the exact opposite of how we mostly work. So we mostly work in creating something, you know, a new service or a new program. Then we have to find people who we who we can get to come to that program, and then they come. And actually we struggle to love them at times because they don't kind of quite do the things that we want to do. And we've we've completely twisted that thing. And I think the other thing of that is, if that's true, we need to give time for people in their relationships. Um, we used to have a phrase in the church, one of the churches I planted minimize meetings, maximize relationships. And the danger, again, is that we suck people into this church world and, um, and even give them a safety net that, you know, most nights they can be involved in something at the church and that will keep them from, you know, this horrible world. Um, but actually, the whole point of being a disciple is we're sent out into the world. Um, and we need to give people the time for that. And again, that's the problem of the kind of big program stuff is that it is It is resource hungry. Um, where actually, I think the gospel calls us to be relationship hungry. Not not, um, not hungry for more events.

00:24:39

Terri Elton: So I think many of us that have been formed by the inherited church have been formed around a set of metrics or success kind of markers that are really different than what you're talking about here, right? We measure how many people come to worship or in Bible study, not how many relationships. Or did people encounter Jesus. So how would you help churches think differently about what it means to lean into this in success? Right. In a in a way that's fruitful?

00:25:14

Dave Male: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No. And I think that's probably a good word. Fruitful is probably a really good word in terms of metrics rather than success. I mean, I would say, Terri, that I think attendance is not a bad metric in the sense that if you try something and know and you have no one involved with it, that is telling you something. So I wouldn't get rid of attendance, but I think it's it's only one measure. So I think, um, you would be asking questions about how how many connections are we making in our neighborhood or in our community. I think you might be starting to ask questions about spiritual practices. Where are you beginning to see people praying? Uh, reading the Bible. Um, where might you see people being involved in, um, social action? Uh, that's come from this. Um, so it's those kind of questions. I mean, the other thing that we do here is this cycle of fresh expression. So, um, which starts with, uh, a listening, loving relationships, uh, developing community, uh, exploring discipleship, creating church, doing it again and again. One of the things that we often do then with communities is say, where are you on that circle? And and what would it look like to get to that, to the next step in that circle? So that that's another way of looking at the kind of forward momentum of that kind of new community. Um, and in a way, the measurements will then depend on where you are in that cycle. Um, so, you know, the initial loving relationships will be very much about the people you're connecting with. But when you get to the exploring discipleship that again, you're looking at different metrics, then probably around spiritual practices. Um, so yeah, so I think we do need much wider, uh, metrics than just bums on seats, as we would say in the UK.

00:27:15

Dwight Zscheile: We've been talking about success or fruitfulness, but I want to flip that around and talk a bit about the role of failure in this process of pioneering new forms of church. And how do you think about that? I know these are experimental, and we can't do experiments without high likelihood of things not turning out as we planned. Tell us about failure.

00:27:36

Dave Male: Yeah. I mean, I'm I would tend to not use the word failure. And one of my great mentors, George Lings, um, told me to use the word prototypes, which I think is a really good way of thinking about this. Um, that actually, what we do first isn't going to be probably the final thing that we do. And it's a whole number of prototypes, because one of the dangers, particularly in the world of church, is failure. We just no one wants to talk about it. And we'll all walk away and be silent. Whereas actually if we if we use the language of experiments prototype, then we're always going to be reviewing stuff, thinking about what's working, what's not working and and moving on from there. I mean, um, I'm always amazed by, um, James Dyson, who made the the first kind of vacuum. Vacuum bag. Um, and he, I think he had 5274 prototypes before he got to the. One that then became the thing. Um, and I think I probably get to about six and think this isn't going to work. And he tried he apparently tried a washing machine that hasn't worked at all. Um, so I think that I think part of it is that the attitude that we go into this with has got to be that attitude of experimentation, of trying, um, or and that's where the listening continues to keep coming into this, um, and not being scared of things not working. I mean, when I first came to Cambridge, we, uh, with a few friends, got together to try and start a sports church. Um, and it really didn't work, partly because we did it on a Monday night in a local pub and being a Monday night, all the Christians around heard about it and came because they because they didn't go to their church on a Monday night. Um, and we couldn't shake as much as we tried to shake them off. We couldn't. But out of that, about probably about three of those leaders started other things out of that experience. Um, so it wasn't a failure. Uh, it didn't work in terms of the sports church, but actually the things that continued in other churches through that. Um, was was really important. So I think it risk, you know, is really important in this. We take a risk. Um, and we do that because we not a crazy risk, but a sense this is the right thing. Um, but we don't know if it will work. I remember one bishop ringing me up saying, oh, they're going to start a fresh expression. Can you guarantee it, Dave, that this will work? And I'm like, no, there's no way I can guarantee that this will work. Um, that's not the way it works. But I do think the language of prototype, is really helpful in in enabling people to see we're not just going to stop this because it's not working quite the way we thought it would, but actually we're going to adapt and develop from that and, and say, well, what is working, what's not? What can we change and what might this look like in another three months or a 6 or 6 months? I just think it's that attitude that you come to it with, which is really important.

00:30:51

Terri Elton: So you talked about listening and we've talked about spiritual practices, but I want to put those two together in a particular way. How might local churches discern which new initiatives to pursue? Because I think, um, just like your sports church or like, how do you get to that? That's where we're feeling called to go, right?

00:31:13

Dave Male: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a really good question. I think the simple questions that I would put around that. Ah, uh, what do we know? And who do we know? Just answer those two simple questions. So what do we know about this area, this community, this place? And who do we know and how? And then begin to listen to what God's saying about how those things really come together. I think that's the really important thing. And then to be to prioritize, um, when we started this church in the north of England that I was involved in, one of the dangers was everyone had so many ideas. We, you know, they wanted us to do about 20 different things. Um, and actually, we had to say, no, this is the thing we're going to do at the moment. We might do all those things in the next 20 years, but we actually need to just focus. And I think there is something about that of saying, okay, who are the people around here that we know? What do we know about this area? And out of that, this is what we're going to do for the time being. Um, and let's start with this one simple thing. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of danger of of, um, making it complicated. And the other thing is the danger of actually, rather than starting with what we know, who do we know? Oh, uh, so and so down the road church, they're doing this, and it's working really well. So we should do that. Or I read a book last week about whatever it was, and this is the next new thing. Now, sometimes those some of those things are helpful once you've got to that. What do we know. Who do we know? Um, I was just, uh, reading the other day about a thing called Breakfast at Nine that a church did a very simple thing in their local village hall for young families. Um, and they've now produced lots of resources. And I see lots of churches beginning to take up those resources. But you don't want to start with the resources. We're going to do breakfast at nine. You want to start with Actually, there is an issue in our, uh, in our neighborhood about young families and time with parents, etcetera, etcetera. We know some of these, um, oh, where could we find help and resources and where are other people trying this? Um, but not starting from there. Definitely starting from the just those simple questions of of what do we know and who do we know?

00:33:39

Dwight Zscheile: Well, Dave, all of this sounds like fun. And I hope our listeners and viewers get a sense of the energy and possibilities that this way of being church alongside and in, in, um, you know, around inherited ways of church, uh, all that, that, that, that brings. So thank you for being back with us on the pivot podcast now.

00:34:00

Dave Male: Great. Great to be here. And I it's an honor to be here. And I always think with these things, if this just leads one person to think, do you know what? I'm going to give it a try. Then our time together is undoubtedly worth it.

00:34:13

Dwight Zscheile: Well, to our listeners and viewers, I want to remember remind you to register for the free webinar with Dave Male on February 28th. It's called Beyond the Walls Simple Pathways to Meeting Neighbors with the gospel, and you can find the link in today's show notes.

00:34:29

Terri Elton: And to our audience. As always, thanks for joining us for this episode of The Pivot podcast. You help us spread the word about pivot when you like or subscribe to us on YouTube, or if you're listening on a podcast platform, please leave a review. It really does help.

00:34:46

Dwight Zscheile: And as always, the best compliment you can give us is to share pivot with a friend. See you next week!

00:34:55

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.