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The workforce, if they see a very
strong female leader, they'll be like

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"Ooh, she's a bit of a whatever."

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Whereas if it was a man, I don't
think anyone would bat an eyelid.

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As a woman in a senior leadership role,
you can almost expect more criticism

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than your male colleagues will be getting.

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I was in a situation where I'd wake up
every morning anxious about going to work,

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and so I left.

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it wasn't for many months after
where when I reflected back on it, I

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realized actually I was being bullied
and, when you were a junior doctor,

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it was acceptable to be bullied.

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You made a difficult decision
that you had to make.

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Maybe you had to change the
way a service was delivered.

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Maybe you finally addressed that behavior
in a team member that everybody else

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had been tiptoeing around for months, or
maybe you just gave  honest feedback when

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staying quiet would have been easier,
and you got a complaint, but not from

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a patient or client, from a colleague.

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You see, you've had a complaint
from a patient before.

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You didn't like it, but you've grudgingly
accepted that getting complaints is just

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part of your job, but this is different
you're still beating yourself up about

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the complaint  or the grievance or the
criticism  from a colleague, whether

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it was last month, last year, or five
years ago, and it's been driving  so

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many of your decisions ever since.

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Because the question it left you
with wasn't about the process or

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the decision you made,  it was
about what it says about you.

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What kind of person does this make me?

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And one thing before we go any further,
You might be hearing me talk about doctors

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or high achievers in leadership roles and
thinking, "Well, that's not quite me."

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I just want to challenge you on that
because if you're the person who has

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to have the conversation that no one
else will, or who has to make the call

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that someone disagrees with, or who
lies awake replaying decisions you

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had to make, If you're that person,
this is for you  because this podcast

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episode genuinely produced an aha
moment because every doctor knows

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that getting a GMC complaint is an
occupational hazard of being a doctor.

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Getting a complaint or criticism
around your leadership or even an

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official grievance  from the colleagues
that you work with  every day?

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Well, that is also an occupational hazard
of being a leader, of being the senior

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one  who has to do hard things, and it's
not a sign that you were wrong for the

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role  or that you're not good enough.

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It's the price of doing something
really real and really hard with people

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who have  very real feelings about it

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But when you don't put this in the right
category, it doesn't just hurt more

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and cause you more emotional distress,
but it can stop you making  the next

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right decision, Or the conversation
that you really need to have just won't

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happen, And you'll find a reason, any
reason, why you shouldn't have it.

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Now my guest today is
Dr. Pallavi Bradshaw.

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She's medical director at Medical
Protection, and she's a woman

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who's been described as gobby.

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in a room where they would
never have said that to a man.

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She's gonna say things today that I
wish someone had told me far earlier.

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This isn't to make it easier to dismiss
criticism, but it may change  how you

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respond to it and how you carry it the
next time it happens Because you are

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not a frog, and a complaint against
you does not prove that you are.

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Let's get into it

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Hi, I'm Dr. Pallavi Bradshaw.

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I'm medical director at MPS, which is
the world's leading medical defense

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organization for doctors and dentists

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It's wonderful to have you
on the podcast, Pallavi.

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We've been trying to get
you on for, for a while now.

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You've got so much  gold, so much
brilliant stuff to talk about.

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I wanna s- I wanna dive straight in
talking about how we are trained in

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medicine,  because medicine trains
us to be really good actually a-

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absorbing criticism from everybody,
from above and below, and but also

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distress from our teams, from our
patients, and all that sort of thing.

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How does that translate into leadership?

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There are probably some very good
things  that make us very good

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leaders,  but I think there are some
things that actually  cause us to have

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issues when we actually  have to make
really difficult decisions as leaders.

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What, what have you seen amongst your sort
of extensive experience in leadership?

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Absolutely.

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I think as doctors, we
want to please everybody.

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We're caring, we're empathetic,  and
that certainly can help in terms

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of being a compassionate leader.

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But it can also lead to problems when
conflict does arise because when you're

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a leader, there will be conflict.

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There will be situations where things
haven't gone quite right  and you

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have to hold people to account.

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And I think that is where the conflict
comes  through the nature that you have.

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And myself, I know, for example  that
given that I have quite high emotional

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intelligence along with many doctors,
I find it very difficult sometimes to

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criticize, particularly people that report
into me  on that sort of more junior level

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because you empathize so much with them
and you think, "Oh gosh  I remember when

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I was a junior doctor being criticized
or shouted at by the consultants."

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And you would take it so personally,
and it would affect me so badly.

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So I do think that doctors in general,
because we are often perfectionists,

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you know, we always want to do the best.

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So when we see something that hasn't
gone quite right, our instinct, I think,

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is sometimes to protect the team, to
protect the team or to try and step

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in and, rescue everyone, sort out the
problem  and then move on rather than

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actually address there might have
been a problem  and being able to then

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raise that with the relevant people.

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And also having conflict with your peers
because obviously difficult decisions

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have to be made, strategic decisions.

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Sometimes they can be quite
uncomfortable because they could

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go against what you genuinely feel,
particularly in a commercial arena.

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You can sometimes have that moral distress
about what the best thing is to do.

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So I think inherently as doctors,
you do have to consciously change

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some of the way that you behave
when you, you become a leader.

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And I do think that's why a lot of medical
leaders can find it quite difficult.

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And a lot of people don't put themselves
forward, I think because particularly I

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think in healthcare,  you work together
as a team with your peers, and then all

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of a sudden you're elevating yourself to
become a medical director, where you're

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suddenly responsible and having to perhaps
have difficult conversations with people

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who you worked with, you trained with.

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And I think that doctors in particular
can find that quite difficult.

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And also, I think  they feel that we
don't like to show off or to put ourselves

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forward,  and it's almost like by putting
yourself forward, "Oh, I think I'm better

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than people  and I can, I can do this."

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it's interesting, w- a- as a doctor,
if you upset somebody, if you s-

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upset a patient, y- you're risking
a formal complaint, aren't you?

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You're risking somebody  making a
complaint against you, might go to GMC.

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And obviously,  you started   very much
the medico-legal advisor,   advi- you've

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advised thousands and thousands of doctors
when they are going through a formal

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complaints process that might have gone to
court, that might be up against the GMC.

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How do you think that  then
translates into the fear of upsetting

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people, say in the commercial
arena or in the leadership arena?

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Yeah, definitely.

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I think that, as I say, you're
trained to be nice to everyone,

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whether it's your patient or
the nurses  or, or your seniors.

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You know, particularly in that junior
doctor role, you're al- you're having

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to really navigate lots of different
stakeholders, and it's very similar

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to in the commercial arena, you know,
your internal stakeholders,  your

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peers, and  people around you.

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And as I say, I think that doctors
generally will have high empathy anyway.

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That's one of the reasons they're
probably drawn to the profession.

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So I, I do think that it can be
really tricky to navigate that.

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So I think in, in medicine, we often do
practice quite defensively, don't we?

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You know, trying to avoid
the complaint at all cost.

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But presumably, if you do that
in leadership, you're not going

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to be a very effective leader

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Absolutely.

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I think we all can recall when we
were working in healthcare as a

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doctor  if you got a complaint, for
example, or somebody was upset by your

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manner and attitude, it was, again,
you would take it very personally.

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And  particularly as a junior doctor,
I think a lot of what you do is

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trying to appease  and please lots
of different stakeholders, whether

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that be your patient, the nurses,
your seniors, your colleagues.

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And you can take that into,
leadership in a commercial setting.

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And unfortunately, as you say,
if you do that and try to please

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everyone, you become pretty
ineffective, because obviously

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difficult decisions have to be made.

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And unfortunately, you have to
make them because you're ultimately

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responsible and accountable.

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And I do think particularly for
women it can feel very unnatural

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to have to make decisions or have
those conversations where you

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know it's going to upset somebody.

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How have you managed to do that?

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Because it, there's all this stuff.

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There's a book out at the moment called
The,  The Courage to Be Disliked, and

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we do see this pattern of behavior.

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There's, there's sort of people pleasing,
there's   guilt when you upset people,

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the,  the feeling that, like, you're in
control of how somebody else is, is, is

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feeling, and that really stops people
from  having the conversations they

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need to have, so they're very conflict
avoidant, from  being able to protect

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their time and manage their energy
because of fear of upsetting people.

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is it more pronounced
in women, do you think?

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I, I definitely think so.

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I think just inherently owing to societal
expectations and the pressures and the

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way that we grow up and the nature and
nurture  women are given that role   of

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being the caregiver, somebody who's
going to fix problems,  and we often

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have that in our own family lives.

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So I think it's easy for us to then take
that into the workplace,  and we are very

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conscious of not wanting to upset people.

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And so I think it, it, it is, Personally,
I f- I have found it very difficult.

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I'm not gonna lie.

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It's something that I
continue to have to work on.

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In fact, I recently, did a leadership
assessment, and that was one of the areas

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which got picked up  that actually I don't
like  having that conflict, particularly

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with people who are more junior to myself.

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I'm, I'm quite happy having those
challenging conversations with

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my peers or people above me.

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And I think we were dissecting it, and
I was talking it through with the, um,

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assessor,  and I think it is because I
empathize very much with those people,

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probably from my own experiences of
being a junior and a junior doctor.

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Um, And I'm really worried that  I know
my team's really busy  this extra bit of

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work, I can probably do it much quicker.

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I know how to do it.

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I'll just do it.

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I'll not bother them
because they're so busy.

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And actually, paradoxically,
although I think I'm thinking I'm

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helping them because I'm taking
that work off them,  I'm taking away

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opportunities for them to develop.

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So the way that now I'm trying to look
at these sorts of things where I'm--

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I know that I struggle with delegating
because I'm… It's not so much that

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I'm a control freak,  but I don't like
putting on other people, and I think

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women tend to have that attitude.

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So I need to be seeing it as
actually, no, I am helping.

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I'm helping them develop,
progress their careers.

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And so I am very conscious that
actually sometimes you do have to do

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and have difficult conversations  in
the interests of the individual, help

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them reflect and develop, but also
for the team and for the organization.

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Ultimately, particularly in the role
that I have, in the job that I have,  we

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are a member, not-for-profit mutual.

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So I know that the difficult decisions
that I might have to take in an

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individual case actually is for the
benefit of 300, you know, 100,000

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doctors and dentists across the world.

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So it's much easier because I
then ground myself as to actually,

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what is the higher purpose?

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And I think we can do that in
healthcare when we are leading.

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Even though it may be a difficult
decision,  ultimately, what we're

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trying to do is for the benefit
of the public and for patients.

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Yeah.

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It's really hard though, isn't
it, to keep that higher purpose in

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front of you when you've got that

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distressed team member or the
underperforming team member in

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front of you and you're feeling  a
huge amount of empathy towards them

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Oh, absolutely.

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And so I think that's why  and,
and it's really important to have

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people around you, so peers that
you can discuss things with,  maybe

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have a mentor or go to a coach.

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Because these are the sorts of things that
ultimately I do think you need sometimes

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external support for, to be able to
reflect back and hear from somebody else

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actually you're doing the right thing
or getting advice and tips on how to

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do have those difficult conversations.

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But also, again, to ground you
back to why do you need to do this?

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Actually it's for the greater good.

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Yeah.

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It's just being able to sense check that.

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Is this, am I being selfish and,

219
00:13:29,193 --> 00:13:30,033
and mean here?

220
00:13:30,033 --> 00:13:32,163
'Cause I think that's what
we all think underneath it.

221
00:13:32,523 --> 00:13:33,853
Am I being mean?

222
00:13:34,193 --> 00:13:35,193
Am I being unreasonable?

223
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And am I being selfish?

224
00:13:37,293 --> 00:13:38,283
Can I sense check that?

225
00:13:38,283 --> 00:13:42,453
And, and  nine times out of 10, I'd
say 99 times out of 100, you sense

226
00:13:42,453 --> 00:13:44,903
check it with someone else, they're
like, " You're being actually far too

227
00:13:44,903 --> 00:13:45,277
nice."

228
00:13:45,771 --> 00:13:48,461
that exactly what happened
to me very recently.

229
00:13:48,461 --> 00:13:51,441
I was, I was having an email
exchange with somebody and I,

230
00:13:51,441 --> 00:13:53,171
I, I got a little bit exercised.

231
00:13:54,231 --> 00:13:58,351
And, and  I was still perfectly
professional and polite  but, but

232
00:13:58,351 --> 00:14:00,534
put my point across ver- forcefully.

233
00:14:00,851 --> 00:14:02,321
And then I sort of literally within,

234
00:14:02,321 --> 00:14:06,131
like, five minutes I said to my
PA, "Oh no, do you think I was

235
00:14:06,131 --> 00:14:08,841
a bit mean?" And she's like,
"No." And I was like, "Oh, okay."

236
00:14:10,129 --> 00:14:11,219
Not mean enough yet.

237
00:14:11,489 --> 00:14:13,089
I asked my other half to check an email,

238
00:14:13,201 --> 00:14:17,479
uh, fairly strong email I had to send, and
I, he read it, he went, "Ooh." I went, "Oh

239
00:14:17,479 --> 00:14:19,389
no, too much." He went, " No, too little."

240
00:14:21,589 --> 00:14:23,189
But Pallavi, do you think,

241
00:14:23,368 --> 00:14:27,668
women are genuinely treated different
and ex- and there are different

242
00:14:27,668 --> 00:14:31,738
expectations of us when it comes to
not upsetting people, when it comes

243
00:14:31,738 --> 00:14:35,978
to  stating what we need  being too
assertive, all that sort of thing.

244
00:14:36,058 --> 00:14:37,508
Are we held to a different standard to

245
00:14:37,508 --> 00:14:38,948
men, and have you experienced that?

246
00:14:39,150 --> 00:14:39,460
absolutely.

247
00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:41,250
I see it all the time, I have to say.

248
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:42,730
No, absolutely.

249
00:14:42,770 --> 00:14:48,930
Like, I- it just frustrates me when
women are described  as being  I've

250
00:14:48,930 --> 00:14:50,290
been described as being gobby.

251
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,666
And I'm like I don't think you
would ever say that to a man,

252
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,340
would you?" That's just not…
And it's because  I'm assertive,

253
00:14:59,420 --> 00:15:01,130
and I will say what I think.

254
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,230
And so if that was a man, they'd be
like, "Oh, yes, they're very confident

255
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:10,350
and articulate."  So I definitely think
that women are treated differently.

256
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:16,280
I think unfortunately  other women as
well will treat other women differently.

257
00:15:17,070 --> 00:15:22,270
So you'll see a strong female leader  and
I think even the workforce, if they see

258
00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:27,090
a very strong female leader, they'll be
like, "Ooh, she's a  bit of a whatever."

259
00:15:27,410 --> 00:15:30,310
Whereas if it was a man, I don't
think anyone would bat an eyelid.

260
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,510
So I think unfortunately society
has got some way to go as well in

261
00:15:34,510 --> 00:15:36,690
accepting strong female leaders.

262
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:44,150
Margaret Thatcher, the Iron Lady  she
was, she was just a strong leader.

263
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:44,560
but

264
00:15:45,380 --> 00:15:50,090
but yeah, the way that women are
described, I think is very unfair still,

265
00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:52,260
which is sad in 2026

266
00:15:53,056 --> 00:15:58,288
So almost as a woman,  as a woman
in a senior leadership role, you

267
00:15:58,288 --> 00:16:00,238
can almost expect more criticism

268
00:16:00,818 --> 00:16:01,098
than

269
00:16:01,098 --> 00:16:02,998
your male colleagues will be getting.

270
00:16:03,424 --> 00:16:06,912
I, I, I think so, and I think
that's probably does explain

271
00:16:06,912 --> 00:16:10,022
some of the difference in the way
that women behave in leadership.

272
00:16:10,022 --> 00:16:14,582
And perhaps we're more conscious
of not wanting to upset people  or

273
00:16:14,582 --> 00:16:18,292
trying to avoid conflict when we
can, and being slightly less direct.

274
00:16:18,652 --> 00:16:22,832
I think as well, women tend to
soften their message, whereas

275
00:16:22,832 --> 00:16:26,822
if a man is direct again, people
are like, "Oh, yes, that's great.

276
00:16:27,122 --> 00:16:29,852
Very direct, to the point."  Whereas,

277
00:16:30,252 --> 00:16:30,882
if you're direct

278
00:16:30,882 --> 00:16:34,122
and to the point, you're seen as
being a bit abrupt or a bit cold

279
00:16:34,702 --> 00:16:40,022
And when you get this criticism, how can
you tell the difference between criticism

280
00:16:40,022 --> 00:16:43,562
that is just somebody not, not liking
maybe  the message that they're getting?

281
00:16:43,562 --> 00:16:47,332
'Cause let's face it, if, if, if
I get difficult feedback,  I might

282
00:16:47,332 --> 00:16:48,542
potentially shoot the messenger.

283
00:16:48,572 --> 00:16:48,992
I don't know.

284
00:16:48,992 --> 00:16:53,022
I try, I try not to, but nobody likes
being told no,  or  being told their

285
00:16:53,022 --> 00:16:57,092
idea's not gonna fly, or actually being
performance managed or, or having some

286
00:16:57,092 --> 00:16:59,082
difficult stuff pointed out or fed back.

287
00:16:59,582 --> 00:17:03,802
How do you tell the difference between
criticism and complaints against you

288
00:17:03,802 --> 00:17:07,882
that are, are warranted 'cause there's
something you need to look at,  or

289
00:17:07,942 --> 00:17:11,302
actually they're just part of the person
receiving it, or that's part of this

290
00:17:11,362 --> 00:17:16,782
unconscious bias that people have against
women,  or just people not, not liking it?

291
00:17:17,606 --> 00:17:18,546
It's a tricky one

292
00:17:18,546 --> 00:17:23,526
because as I say, any criticism, whether
founded or not, I think people take

293
00:17:23,526 --> 00:17:25,346
very personally, particularly doctors.

294
00:17:25,736 --> 00:17:30,666
But I think the way that I look at it is
either okay, actually is there a theme?

295
00:17:30,666 --> 00:17:32,746
Have other people said a similar thing?

296
00:17:33,346 --> 00:17:34,486
Is it isolated?

297
00:17:35,006 --> 00:17:39,536
And/or that's when I think having somebody
to discuss it with can really help.

298
00:17:39,866 --> 00:17:44,600
So going to a trusted colleague or
a, senior to say, "Look, what do you

299
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,110
think about this?" and talk it through.

300
00:17:47,670 --> 00:17:52,530
I've been fairly lucky in
actually not having too many

301
00:17:52,530 --> 00:17:54,630
awful comments made about me.

302
00:17:55,260 --> 00:17:57,450
But I, as you say, I think
that it is really important

303
00:17:57,450 --> 00:17:59,210
that we all reflect and learn.

304
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,260
And so yeah.

305
00:18:02,590 --> 00:18:05,680
It, it… and the key is to obviously
not, not to take it personally

306
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:06,900
and to let it get you down.

307
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:10,030
And, and if there is something
to learn, then, then to do that

308
00:18:10,690 --> 00:18:14,570
And there is a version of some
criticism that's actually about power

309
00:18:14,770 --> 00:18:19,060
or territory, and I, I'm assuming that
the more senior you get, the higher

310
00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:22,164
in an organization you get, the more
you're gonna come up against that.

311
00:18:22,547 --> 00:18:24,664
And sometimes it's treated as it's
just, "I'm just gonna give you some

312
00:18:24,664 --> 00:18:26,144
feedback about your performance."

313
00:18:26,194 --> 00:18:30,394
So  how do you  tell the difference,
and how do you notice when it's

314
00:18:30,394 --> 00:18:34,504
actually about some sort of political
shenanigans  when maybe that shame

315
00:18:34,504 --> 00:18:35,854
response has already been triggered?

316
00:18:36,496 --> 00:18:36,736
Yeah.

317
00:18:36,766 --> 00:18:38,816
Again, that's ex- extremely difficult.

318
00:18:38,816 --> 00:18:43,348
But I think that I have to say that
I, I have experienced it where I know

319
00:18:43,348 --> 00:18:48,408
that I've been given feedback or been
told things where I know it's not come

320
00:18:48,408 --> 00:18:52,738
from a good place,  and it is perhaps
the other person feeling threatened.

321
00:18:53,558 --> 00:18:58,378
So again, I think it is a, a situation
where you have to try and be objective

322
00:18:58,378 --> 00:19:02,798
about it, look at it and go, "Okay,
is there an element of truth?"

323
00:19:03,168 --> 00:19:09,995
Or " Is-- have other people said this to
me?" Y- " Is there a theme?"  And again,

324
00:19:10,568 --> 00:19:15,446
going to a trusted colleague or or a peer
to say, "Look, I've had this feedback.

325
00:19:16,126 --> 00:19:20,090
What do you think?" because otherwise,
yes, it, it, it can be difficult,

326
00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:25,840
particularly if they are somebody
who is more senior to you. Because

327
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,830
obviously we automatically think,
"Oh my God, I've got to change.

328
00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:33,034
This is really awful." that's why
I do think it's really important in

329
00:19:33,034 --> 00:19:37,674
any workplace to have a network of
pe- trusted colleagues if you can

330
00:19:38,564 --> 00:19:43,704
to be able to have those off the record
conversations just to sense check

331
00:19:43,898 --> 00:19:45,808
How, how do you find those people though?

332
00:19:46,327 --> 00:19:50,567
I think that as with anybody,
like you, you can pick friends,

333
00:19:50,767 --> 00:19:51,787
and I think you can do that.

334
00:19:51,787 --> 00:19:54,097
You can pick friends and allies at work.

335
00:19:54,097 --> 00:19:58,687
So you'll s- you'll be able to tell
people who've got very common values to

336
00:19:58,687 --> 00:20:01,417
you,  people that you enjoy working with.

337
00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:05,957
Um, and sometimes actually you don't
know them, so you might want to get

338
00:20:05,997 --> 00:20:10,587
a completely external mentor from
a different organization  who will

339
00:20:10,587 --> 00:20:12,457
give you purely objective feedback.

340
00:20:12,747 --> 00:20:18,127
And the way that I've done it  is
either being really bold about it and

341
00:20:18,407 --> 00:20:22,527
emailing somebody directly or going
through LinkedIn and asking them if

342
00:20:22,527 --> 00:20:24,822
they would be happy, to be my mentor.

343
00:20:25,392 --> 00:20:30,852
or, you know, during the years you will
meet various people and acquaintances

344
00:20:31,072 --> 00:20:32,582
and it's, that's why it's so important.

345
00:20:32,582 --> 00:20:36,492
I think doctors perhaps aren't as
good at doing this as they should

346
00:20:36,552 --> 00:20:41,132
be,  and it's something that I think
I've accidentally done rather than

347
00:20:41,832 --> 00:20:47,062
purposefully, is building a large network
of people that you meet along the way.

348
00:20:47,352 --> 00:20:50,986
You know, either you've worked
with, you've met at conferences  and

349
00:20:50,986 --> 00:20:52,486
then somebody will know somebody.

350
00:20:52,808 --> 00:20:56,738
So it's really important  to
build that network because you're

351
00:20:57,418 --> 00:20:58,398
we all need support.

352
00:20:59,448 --> 00:21:00,708
And it's really important.

353
00:21:00,708 --> 00:21:03,988
You never know  when one of those
connections might be able to help

354
00:21:03,988 --> 00:21:05,398
you or you might be able to help them

355
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:06,840
We often fear,

356
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,610
approaching people and
asking for help, don't we?

357
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,640
'Cause we think we're putting either
like being a, being a pain, they're

358
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,243
gonna say no, putting stuff on them.

359
00:21:15,911 --> 00:21:17,830
Do you think women are
particularly good at doing that?

360
00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:20,800
Do you think it's easier for men
to build these, these networks?

361
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,370
Or  is it doesn't really make a
difference between the genders?

362
00:21:26,104 --> 00:21:27,264
No, I think you're right.

363
00:21:27,354 --> 00:21:30,524
I think it is very much, "Oh well,
why would they want to help me?"

364
00:21:30,564 --> 00:21:32,274
Or, "They're probably too busy.

365
00:21:32,274 --> 00:21:38,564
Don't wanna put upon them."  and again,
I think that men are probably better

366
00:21:38,994 --> 00:21:43,394
at looking forward about their careers
and, and career planning,  and so

367
00:21:43,394 --> 00:21:48,672
they, they can see, "Oh, actually these
people could be useful in the future."

368
00:21:48,672 --> 00:21:52,982
Whereas I think that a lot of women don't
necessarily think like that when they're

369
00:21:52,982 --> 00:21:56,782
making connections  at work or on LinkedIn

370
00:21:57,762 --> 00:21:58,662
and often will think,

371
00:21:59,352 --> 00:22:02,432
okay, but what have I got to offer
them?" When in, actual fact, you've

372
00:22:02,432 --> 00:22:05,502
probably got a lot of things that
you could reciprocate and offer them.

373
00:22:06,042 --> 00:22:09,344
Yeah, I think in, in the medical
world, we really think  we're over

374
00:22:09,344 --> 00:22:13,694
here and we don't have any transferable
skills  into the commercial world.

375
00:22:13,694 --> 00:22:16,104
Now, you transferred very
successfully into the

376
00:22:16,104 --> 00:22:17,014
commercial world.

377
00:22:17,344 --> 00:22:20,804
What did you take with you  that
was really, really valuable from

378
00:22:20,804 --> 00:22:22,554
your, from your medical training?

379
00:22:23,069 --> 00:22:24,119
It was the communication.

380
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,599
I know that sounds really like
cliched,  but I think medics are

381
00:22:28,599 --> 00:22:30,479
such good communicators generally.

382
00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:34,179
And business is all about relationships.

383
00:22:34,629 --> 00:22:38,229
When you boil it  down, it
is all about relationships.

384
00:22:38,479 --> 00:22:42,669
And so if you're able to communicate
well, as we have to with various

385
00:22:42,669 --> 00:22:46,729
people in medicine  I think that
puts us at a real advantage.

386
00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:52,389
Also Yeah, and also,
again, risk management.

387
00:22:52,499 --> 00:22:58,189
I think medics make such high-stake
risks under such pressure  that actually

388
00:22:58,189 --> 00:23:03,669
when it comes to business, we, we
are comfortable with ambiguity  and

389
00:23:03,669 --> 00:23:05,699
we're comfortable with taking risks.

390
00:23:06,379 --> 00:23:09,079
And I, I really see that
as a huge advantage,

391
00:23:09,609 --> 00:23:10,689
over and above,

392
00:23:11,049 --> 00:23:15,239
potentially other professional people
within commercial organizations

393
00:23:15,867 --> 00:23:16,797
That's really interesting.

394
00:23:16,827 --> 00:23:20,647
So we're good at the risks and ambiguity
and dealing with uncertainty, but on

395
00:23:20,647 --> 00:23:27,107
the flip side,  we're not so good  at
dealing with personal criticism  or

396
00:23:27,107 --> 00:23:32,367
complaints because   in medicine when
that happens, that's our livelihood.

397
00:23:32,367 --> 00:23:34,787
We could be up against the
GMC, c- we could be struck off.

398
00:23:34,787 --> 00:23:37,327
Is that, i- is that a pattern
that you've observed perhaps?

399
00:23:38,128 --> 00:23:39,117
Yes, I think so.

400
00:23:39,117 --> 00:23:42,967
And, and i- i- you know, there's
obviously fear in defensive medicine,

401
00:23:43,297 --> 00:23:47,207
but I do also think it's, it's not even
about the worry about the regulator,

402
00:23:47,246 --> 00:23:49,247
it's the personal accountability.

403
00:23:49,247 --> 00:23:54,367
We hold ourselves up to such a high
standard  that actually even if

404
00:23:54,367 --> 00:23:57,277
there isn't a complaint, you know,
if there's been an adverse event,

405
00:23:57,367 --> 00:23:59,687
nobody's complained, you feel awful.

406
00:24:00,567 --> 00:24:04,427
You know, you're abs-   I remember just
feeling devastated when something bad

407
00:24:04,477 --> 00:24:07,827
would happen to one of my patients,
and if I had contributed in any way,

408
00:24:07,827 --> 00:24:11,557
that was just like, "Oh my God, I was
the worst doctor in the world."  So,

409
00:24:11,887 --> 00:24:17,333
So, I think unfortunately we probably
hold ourselves to a higher level of

410
00:24:17,333 --> 00:24:19,353
scrutiny than, than other people.

411
00:24:19,844 --> 00:24:24,114
And that's why there's the phenomenon
of the, the second victim in relation

412
00:24:24,114 --> 00:24:28,884
to adverse events  where doctors may
come across that they're being really

413
00:24:28,884 --> 00:24:29,854
arrogant because,

414
00:24:30,126 --> 00:24:33,124
then they're avoiding the patient or
avoiding the situation, but actually

415
00:24:33,124 --> 00:24:36,204
it's to protect themselves because
they feel so terrible about it.

416
00:24:36,882 --> 00:24:39,192
So how have you
personally  dealt with that?

417
00:24:39,192 --> 00:24:40,032
I know you talked about

418
00:24:40,182 --> 00:24:43,212
getting mentors and,  and,
and stuff like that, but,

419
00:24:43,473 --> 00:24:46,268
the more senior you are, know,
I'm sure the more you come in for

420
00:24:46,268 --> 00:24:49,178
criticism because people don't know
you so well and you're having to

421
00:24:49,178 --> 00:24:51,568
make even more high-stakes decisions.

422
00:24:51,598 --> 00:24:55,158
There's  that whole thing about don't
take things personally, but  that's

423
00:24:55,158 --> 00:24:59,368
really hard to do in my experience.

424
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:05,140
It, is extremely hard to do, but
as I say, I try to just  keep it

425
00:25:05,180 --> 00:25:07,170
that what I do, why am I here?

426
00:25:07,170 --> 00:25:08,170
What am I doing?

427
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:10,750
I'm trying to do the best that I can.

428
00:25:10,750 --> 00:25:12,450
I'm not always going to get it right.

429
00:25:14,020 --> 00:25:16,830
And as long as I'm getting it
right more often than not,  then

430
00:25:16,830 --> 00:25:19,340
I'm probably doing an okay job.

431
00:25:19,741 --> 00:25:21,661
And how, how have you managed to

432
00:25:22,651 --> 00:25:28,121
keep  your own integrity and align with
your own values when I can imagine there,

433
00:25:28,211 --> 00:25:31,301
like you've already said, there've been
some decisions made in organizations

434
00:25:31,301 --> 00:25:34,928
that you maybe weren't aligned with,
but because they were  made higher

435
00:25:34,951 --> 00:25:38,381
up the,  the, the, pecking order,
you know, everyone has to fall in.

436
00:25:38,381 --> 00:25:39,531
How, how do you cope with that?

437
00:25:39,531 --> 00:25:39,651
'Cause

438
00:25:40,111 --> 00:25:42,211
that doesn't just happen in commercial
organizations, let's face it.

439
00:25:42,211 --> 00:25:44,652
That happens in NHS trusts all the time,

440
00:25:44,922 --> 00:25:47,522
with cost-cutting and stuff, and it's
this version of-- it's almost like

441
00:25:47,522 --> 00:25:49,002
a version of moral injury, isn't it?

442
00:25:49,072 --> 00:25:49,352
Where you're

443
00:25:49,352 --> 00:25:51,902
having to do stuff that you
don't actually agree with.

444
00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:53,456
Yeah.

445
00:25:53,676 --> 00:25:56,916
I think the way that I've, I've managed to

446
00:25:59,206 --> 00:26:07,626
not take it to, to the point of
getting so upset about it is drawing

447
00:26:07,626 --> 00:26:10,606
the line of where does it, where
is it that it really matters?

448
00:26:10,606 --> 00:26:14,886
If this is really going to harm people
or patients then I will keep going and

449
00:26:14,886 --> 00:26:19,616
keep going and keep going until I'm able
to influence and change the decisions.

450
00:26:21,116 --> 00:26:23,776
And I've had to learn that actually

451
00:26:25,972 --> 00:26:27,202
That bar's quite high.

452
00:26:27,662 --> 00:26:31,902
So there will be decisions I
just don't like, but I'm just

453
00:26:31,902 --> 00:26:33,042
gonna have to suck it up.

454
00:26:34,222 --> 00:26:39,322
And it can-- And, and l- I'm still
registered on the GMC register, so I still

455
00:26:39,322 --> 00:26:42,782
have that professional obligation where I
see that there might be harm to patients.

456
00:26:42,822 --> 00:26:44,142
I have to act, and I would.

457
00:26:44,582 --> 00:26:49,262
I've been lucky so far that it hasn't
got to that extreme, but I am aware that

458
00:26:49,262 --> 00:26:53,822
actually if I'm working in an organization
where there is potential for patient

459
00:26:53,822 --> 00:26:57,972
safety, I must escalate that, and I will
escalate it, and I will do what I can.

460
00:26:58,402 --> 00:27:01,892
Ultimately, there will come a point
where maybe you can't do any more,

461
00:27:02,212 --> 00:27:05,672
but at least then I feel I've done
everything that I possibly could,

462
00:27:06,272 --> 00:27:07,892
uh, within my power rather than

463
00:27:07,892 --> 00:27:10,192
sort of shrug my shoulders and let it?

464
00:27:10,192 --> 00:27:10,452
go

465
00:27:10,774 --> 00:27:11,544
It's hard, isn't it?

466
00:27:11,544 --> 00:27:15,844
And there'll be people that are listening
to this that are,  like, generally working

467
00:27:15,844 --> 00:27:23,114
in toxic systems  where they have raised
concerns and that's lead to retaliation

468
00:27:23,144 --> 00:27:26,845
or,   had real career consequences.

469
00:27:26,845 --> 00:27:27,145
So,

470
00:27:28,336 --> 00:27:30,245
people pleasing, it's
not just like, oh, it's

471
00:27:30,435 --> 00:27:31,455
this cognitive distortion.

472
00:27:31,455 --> 00:27:33,785
It's actually keeping them safe at work.

473
00:27:33,785 --> 00:27:39,645
What would you  say to that person who
who's just displaying a rational response

474
00:27:39,645 --> 00:27:41,245
to a really dangerous environment?

475
00:27:41,838 --> 00:27:43,188
This is so difficult.

476
00:27:43,188 --> 00:27:44,328
We have this all the time.

477
00:27:44,328 --> 00:27:48,498
You can imagine when we're advising
doctors that they are really

478
00:27:48,498 --> 00:27:50,798
worried about patient safety.

479
00:27:51,415 --> 00:27:55,564
And of- again, we will advise them
to do what is their obligation,

480
00:27:55,915 --> 00:28:00,025
knowing full well  that we,
there could be repercussions.

481
00:28:00,245 --> 00:28:01,305
We're not naive.

482
00:28:01,656 --> 00:28:05,886
But what we can do is try and protect them
as much as possible, so for them to get as

483
00:28:05,886 --> 00:28:09,096
much support, professional advice as they
can, whether that be from their medical

484
00:28:09,096 --> 00:28:14,309
defense organization or from their trade
union   and actually warn them, " this

485
00:28:14,309 --> 00:28:18,259
could go wrong  but this is what you
believe, this is what you need to do."

486
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:19,879
And I think it is.

487
00:28:19,879 --> 00:28:23,989
It's just a terrible situation
where the culture unfortunately  is

488
00:28:23,989 --> 00:28:28,429
still not shifting quick enough for
people to be able to raise patient

489
00:28:28,429 --> 00:28:30,153
safety concerns without fear.

490
00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:35,859
And that's why we see scandals
con- you know, recurring, and

491
00:28:35,889 --> 00:28:39,079
every scandal is like, "Oh my God,
we can't let this happen again."

492
00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:41,679
And then the next scandal is, "Oh no,
we can't let this happen again." And

493
00:28:41,679 --> 00:28:45,399
when you actually boil it down,  it's
more often than not about culture,

494
00:28:45,789 --> 00:28:50,389
uh  and, and people not being able
to raise concerns or not being heard

495
00:28:50,429 --> 00:28:51,779
when they are raising concerns.

496
00:28:52,019 --> 00:28:57,373
So unfortunately, that one individual,
absolutely admire those people that are

497
00:28:57,373 --> 00:29:02,233
ra- are able to put their head above the
parapet  and then face those consequences

498
00:29:02,233 --> 00:29:06,733
for what they genuinely believe, and it's
something that as doctors, we need to

499
00:29:06,763 --> 00:29:11,713
all  band together  to  to not allow those

500
00:29:11,713 --> 00:29:13,533
people to be isolated,

501
00:29:14,363 --> 00:29:14,939
and have,

502
00:29:15,404 --> 00:29:16,693
to be treated in that way.

503
00:29:16,953 --> 00:29:19,193
So I think it's a
collective responsibility

504
00:29:20,203 --> 00:29:22,543
to, yeah, to change the culture

505
00:29:22,914 --> 00:29:25,794
yeah, When would you walk away?

506
00:29:25,794 --> 00:29:26,724
When do you know?

507
00:29:28,314 --> 00:29:31,774
How can you tell if it's the right
to stay in the organization and

508
00:29:31,774 --> 00:29:33,434
try and influence from within,

509
00:29:33,434 --> 00:29:36,304
because that's the only way you can
change things, let's face it,  and

510
00:29:36,304 --> 00:29:38,304
when is it right to just walk away?

511
00:29:38,943 --> 00:29:42,903
I think when it starts to affect your
own wellbeing  and your own health,

512
00:29:42,963 --> 00:29:47,613
I think  ultimately you have to be
selfish because uh, you know, it- once

513
00:29:47,613 --> 00:29:51,913
you start  being unwell yourself or it
affecting your wellbeing, you're  not

514
00:29:51,913 --> 00:29:53,983
really going to be effective anyway.

515
00:29:54,533 --> 00:29:57,672
You're gonna start
having    burnout problems.

516
00:29:58,008 --> 00:30:03,302
you're gonna be less motivated and
you're better off, I think, moving

517
00:30:03,302 --> 00:30:08,432
yourself away from that situation and
just trying to do what you, can in a

518
00:30:08,432 --> 00:30:10,402
different organization or somewhere else.

519
00:30:10,732 --> 00:30:12,142
So I think that's where

520
00:30:13,152 --> 00:30:15,292
the, the, the red line would be for me

521
00:30:15,894 --> 00:30:19,684
Have you ever been in a really toxic
culture where you ended up, you

522
00:30:19,684 --> 00:30:22,854
tried your best and then you ended up
thinking, "I just, I just need to c-  I

523
00:30:22,854 --> 00:30:24,284
just need to walk away right here"?

524
00:30:24,284 --> 00:30:29,414
And, and  what was your journey about what
you tried and then when you walked away?

525
00:30:30,112 --> 00:30:30,799
Yes, I have.

526
00:30:31,482 --> 00:30:34,892
And I, I  practiced what I preached.

527
00:30:36,162 --> 00:30:38,122
I spoke to lots of people.

528
00:30:38,122 --> 00:30:39,334
I took counsel.

529
00:30:39,692 --> 00:30:43,702
I raised my concerns through
the appropriate channels.

530
00:30:44,318 --> 00:30:47,058
And unfortunately, it
wasn't getting anywhere.

531
00:30:47,438 --> 00:30:51,468
And then I knew if I stayed
in that situation longer I was

532
00:30:51,468 --> 00:30:52,858
already getting very anxious.

533
00:30:52,858 --> 00:30:56,828
I was in a situation where I'd
wake up every morning anxious about

534
00:30:56,828 --> 00:31:02,408
going to work, that Sunday night
dread and, and just anxious all the

535
00:31:02,408 --> 00:31:04,588
time, and anything would trigger me.

536
00:31:04,588 --> 00:31:09,408
So an email from this particular
person would just cause anxiety,  and

537
00:31:09,408 --> 00:31:13,608
I wasn't sleeping well, and I just
realized that, absolutely can't do this.

538
00:31:14,458 --> 00:31:15,315
And so I left.

539
00:31:15,918 --> 00:31:20,088
And it wasn't, I guess, for many
months after where when I reflected

540
00:31:20,088 --> 00:31:23,968
back on it, I was like, "Why on earth
did I stay even for that amount of

541
00:31:23,968 --> 00:31:31,598
time?"  and really realized actually
it I was being bullied and, and it's

542
00:31:31,598 --> 00:31:34,858
very difficult, I think, when you're
in a situation to realize that.

543
00:31:35,218 --> 00:31:39,000
And I think as well    from the
generation of   medic that I'm

544
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,380
from, when you were a junior doctor,
it was acceptable to be bullied.

545
00:31:45,870 --> 00:31:50,570
You were being bullied and shouted at and
sworn at by your consultants and stuff.

546
00:31:50,620 --> 00:31:57,370
And so I think  I thought it, I saw it as
a failure if I couldn't put up with it.

547
00:31:58,030 --> 00:31:59,180
I'm, I'm resilient.

548
00:31:59,180 --> 00:32:03,710
I can, I can put up with this."  and
and then it just got to the stage

549
00:32:03,710 --> 00:32:05,480
where it was affecting my wellbeing.

550
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,930
I was, like, crying between
meetings, and I was like, "No, I

551
00:32:07,930 --> 00:32:09,540
can't, I can't do this anymore."

552
00:32:09,783 --> 00:32:12,453
So how did you just
not take it personally?

553
00:32:12,453 --> 00:32:13,833
How did you manage to separate,

554
00:32:14,413 --> 00:32:17,583
the person from the problem and go,
"Hang on, this is the workplace culture.

555
00:32:17,583 --> 00:32:21,293
It's not a defect in me."  I think a lot
of people just go straight to, "Oh, hell

556
00:32:21,333 --> 00:32:23,233
yeah." Like like you started off doing,

557
00:32:23,851 --> 00:32:29,231
Because I knew  from before that,
look, I've been performing really

558
00:32:29,231 --> 00:32:33,091
well to a high standard or-- and then
all of a sudden this has happened.

559
00:32:33,091 --> 00:32:36,321
It can't just suddenly be me
that's dropped off a cliff  in

560
00:32:36,321 --> 00:32:38,059
my ability to do my job.

561
00:32:38,801 --> 00:32:44,191
So I had that comfort,   but also talking
to other colleagues who unfortunately were

562
00:32:44,191 --> 00:32:48,451
going through similar views and feelings
because of the toxicity of the culture.

563
00:32:49,801 --> 00:32:53,341
So I knew it wasn't just me, and
unfortunately I'd witnessed it

564
00:32:54,422 --> 00:32:55,261
with other people

565
00:32:55,789 --> 00:32:59,449
So triangulation's quite important,
isn't it, in those sorts of situations?

566
00:33:00,063 --> 00:33:03,569
not gossiping, but like finding out, is
this happening to other people as well?

567
00:33:04,199 --> 00:33:05,159
Because this is it.

568
00:33:05,159 --> 00:33:08,839
Often you know,  bullies will do
it on a one-to-one, so they'll

569
00:33:08,839 --> 00:33:10,829
be perfectly lovely in a meeting.

570
00:33:11,949 --> 00:33:15,069
So, you know, And, and so it was
actually talking to other people

571
00:33:15,249 --> 00:33:18,669
who were having that exact same
thing was happening to them.

572
00:33:19,089 --> 00:33:23,799
But also you know, just  th- the
culture generally in that, that

573
00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:28,589
team and department some of the
conversations were, like, things  you

574
00:33:28,589 --> 00:33:33,429
couldn't believe were being discussed
in 21st century workplace, so…

575
00:33:34,112 --> 00:33:35,652
Sometimes it's just so obvious, right?

576
00:33:35,652 --> 00:33:38,522
But actually when you're in it, it's
really hard to see until you get out of it

577
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:43,509
Particularly where it's perhaps a role
that you really like and you don't

578
00:33:43,509 --> 00:33:46,989
want to leave because you're thinking
actually I can just get through this.

579
00:33:46,989 --> 00:33:49,129
Maybe they'll move, maybe they'll leave.

580
00:33:49,399 --> 00:33:51,689
Maybe I'll get another
role somewhere," you know?

581
00:33:51,765 --> 00:33:54,709
so, so yeah, all these things
make you want to, to stay.

582
00:33:54,709 --> 00:33:59,039
And,  and again, as medics, I think
in particular it's scary not having

583
00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:04,569
a job  because we're programmed that
you go to medical school, you go

584
00:34:04,569 --> 00:34:07,579
through, you train, da da da, and then
you fall off at the end and you're a

585
00:34:07,579 --> 00:34:09,475
consultant and you have a job for life.

586
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:16,359
And so I think one of the things that can
put people off maybe leaving the NHS  is

587
00:34:16,359 --> 00:34:20,049
that fear of not having a guaranteed job.

588
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,660
I, I wanna come back to
the bullying thing, right?

589
00:34:22,660 --> 00:34:26,130
'Cause you mentioned, you mentioned the
B word,  and I wanna come back to the

590
00:34:26,170 --> 00:34:28,060
other side of things, like as a leader.

591
00:34:28,670 --> 00:34:31,540
Because one of the things that I'm
always really worried about is that

592
00:34:31,540 --> 00:34:37,390
if I give feedback to somebody in my
team that's a- about performance,  they

593
00:34:37,390 --> 00:34:39,980
are going to say I'm being bullied.

594
00:34:39,980 --> 00:34:43,110
Now,  that has never happened to
me, and I hope it never will, but

595
00:34:43,110 --> 00:34:47,880
I think  there is a, a real fear
of, of, of formal complaints.

596
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,860
And, and we see it, we see, you know,
um… In fact, I'm in a mastermind

597
00:34:51,860 --> 00:34:55,860
and someone put, you know, they gave
some feedback to a, a new PA they

598
00:34:55,860 --> 00:34:59,520
have, and it, it wasn't even that
bad, and they've immediately gone

599
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,810
off sick for a month with stress.

600
00:35:01,570 --> 00:35:01,961
And then,

601
00:35:02,403 --> 00:35:05,430
there's these formal complaints going
in, there's these black marks against

602
00:35:05,430 --> 00:35:06,410
you and all that sort of thing.

603
00:35:06,410 --> 00:35:11,480
So  how have you navigated the actually
giving you direct and useful feedback,

604
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,810
but without being labeled as a bully or
the other person perceiving it as a bully?

605
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,530
I know it's very important to
understand we can't control how other

606
00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:20,790
people receive stuff.

607
00:35:20,850 --> 00:35:23,760
But  yeah, I think it's a real
minefield and, and I think it's a

608
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,570
genuine  risk for some people, isn't it?

609
00:35:27,115 --> 00:35:28,135
I think it is a risk.

610
00:35:28,135 --> 00:35:31,015
And as you say, though, the important
thing is you just don't know how the

611
00:35:31,015 --> 00:35:32,565
other person is going to perceive it.

612
00:35:32,565 --> 00:35:37,725
So regardless of how much care you
put in, in trying to message,  and

613
00:35:37,725 --> 00:35:39,815
as you say, it's sometimes not
even the way that you've done

614
00:35:39,815 --> 00:35:41,135
it, it's just the message itself.

615
00:35:41,225 --> 00:35:45,585
People don't like to be told they've done
something that, that wasn't quite right.

616
00:35:46,565 --> 00:35:51,555
And so I think  it, it, it sounds really
defeatist, but I think the more senior you

617
00:35:51,555 --> 00:35:54,835
get in an organization, the more people
you end up having reporting into you.

618
00:35:54,865 --> 00:35:56,635
It is an occupational hazard.

619
00:35:57,995 --> 00:35:59,215
It's probably gonna happen.

620
00:35:59,245 --> 00:36:03,575
It's a bit like we have to tell
doctors these days,  getting a GMC

621
00:36:03,575 --> 00:36:05,485
complaint is probably inevitable.

622
00:36:06,185 --> 00:36:08,955
It's unfortunately one of those
things that you've got to live

623
00:36:08,955 --> 00:36:10,795
with and to feel comfortable about.

624
00:36:10,795 --> 00:36:14,275
And if it does happen  ensure
that you've got the support.

625
00:36:15,575 --> 00:36:19,295
Often these complaints and
grievances will hopefully be seen

626
00:36:19,295 --> 00:36:21,585
for being frivolous or vexatious.

627
00:36:21,915 --> 00:36:26,345
And although to get to that point can be
awful and stressful you know, the, the

628
00:36:26,345 --> 00:36:30,835
stress of having to deal with a complaint
or a grievance  ultimately you will

629
00:36:30,835 --> 00:36:34,035
get to the other side, and that's why it's
really important to have peer support.

630
00:36:34,435 --> 00:36:38,095
But yeah, I think it is a,
a, an occupational hazard

631
00:36:38,773 --> 00:36:40,663
I think that's really useful
to frame it like that.

632
00:36:41,043 --> 00:36:42,083
'Cause I think for me,

633
00:36:42,443 --> 00:36:43,853
when I was a, a practicing GP,

634
00:36:43,853 --> 00:36:46,843
you know, just thinking of complaints
and mistakes as occupational hazards,

635
00:36:46,843 --> 00:36:50,933
and your, your colleague,  Dr. Eileen
Weston,  she gave this mantra that she

636
00:36:50,933 --> 00:36:54,093
says she teaches all the first-year dental
students, "I'm gonna make a mistake,

637
00:36:54,133 --> 00:36:55,653
and some of them are gonna be serious."

638
00:36:55,653 --> 00:36:57,183
Like,  it's going to happen.

639
00:36:57,183 --> 00:36:58,033
You can't avoid it.

640
00:36:58,033 --> 00:37:01,073
So  if you frame that, you know,
you will give feedback to people

641
00:37:01,073 --> 00:37:03,813
and they won't like it, and they
may put in a formal complaint,

642
00:37:03,843 --> 00:37:05,113
and that's an occupational hazard.

643
00:37:06,073 --> 00:37:10,513
Because what are the
consequences of not giving that

644
00:37:10,513 --> 00:37:14,453
feed- What have you seen  at a really
senior level in organizations where

645
00:37:14,623 --> 00:37:19,453
feedback hasn't been given, where
conflict hasn't occurred  where people

646
00:37:19,513 --> 00:37:22,663
are not confronting people about stuff?

647
00:37:23,191 --> 00:37:29,481
It actually has a really corrosive
effect on the culture because other

648
00:37:29,481 --> 00:37:33,951
people in the team can see potentially
that somebody's underperforming,

649
00:37:34,501 --> 00:37:39,926
and if it's not addressed, they
just feel completely,   demotivated.

650
00:37:41,006 --> 00:37:45,126
So actually you're, you're ending
up this one person  can actually

651
00:37:45,126 --> 00:37:48,936
have such a negative impact on the
productivity and the morale of a team.

652
00:37:50,106 --> 00:37:53,926
And actually you know, people will
just be also thinking I can get away

653
00:37:53,926 --> 00:37:56,616
with anything,"  and, and it's… Yeah.

654
00:37:56,866 --> 00:38:01,676
So I think if you're trying to build
a high-performing team, you absolutely

655
00:38:01,676 --> 00:38:05,796
have to nip these things in the
bud,  because otherwise it just has

656
00:38:05,926 --> 00:38:11,126
such a negative impact, uh, and a
ripple effect wider than you may even

657
00:38:11,126 --> 00:38:14,940
anticipate because you just think,
"Oh it's just one team or one person."

658
00:38:15,306 --> 00:38:19,446
So I think it's so important as a leader
to be able to see that and to call it out.

659
00:38:20,306 --> 00:38:24,676
And unfortunately it can have a
huge impact on the organization as

660
00:38:24,676 --> 00:38:30,756
a whole and how it performs on a, on
a sort of a  the basis   financially

661
00:38:31,506 --> 00:38:33,066
and from a culture perspective

662
00:38:33,345 --> 00:38:34,545
I think in the NHS people say,

663
00:38:34,545 --> 00:38:38,645
"Well, if I  call out that person's gonna
leave and we'll be worse off than, than

664
00:38:38,645 --> 00:38:41,995
if they'd stayed." And I would think,
"Ooh, would you actually have been worse

665
00:38:41,995 --> 00:38:42,355
off?"

666
00:38:43,181 --> 00:38:43,801
exactly.

667
00:38:44,511 --> 00:38:47,001
I think and I think that's
right to reframe it.

668
00:38:47,211 --> 00:38:50,751
Actually, okay, you might
be a headcount down.

669
00:38:51,051 --> 00:38:53,791
Hopefully they'll be replaced
by somebody more competent.

670
00:38:54,111 --> 00:38:59,461
And even if they're not, actually, as,
as I said, I think sometimes the morale

671
00:38:59,961 --> 00:39:04,491
is, is, is better  when you can actually
see that everybody's working towards

672
00:39:04,491 --> 00:39:10,101
the same goal,  and that bad behavior
or underperformance isn't tolerated

673
00:39:10,645 --> 00:39:16,015
Pallavi, if we applied the same sort
of framework that, that you would apply

674
00:39:16,015 --> 00:39:19,795
to a doctor  who's going through a sort
of formal complaint from a patient,

675
00:39:19,795 --> 00:39:25,965
if we applied that to ourselves  in
our leadership  in terms of  getting

676
00:39:25,965 --> 00:39:28,605
away from the people-pleasing,
making the hard decisions, what would

677
00:39:28,605 --> 00:39:30,215
actually that look like in practice?

678
00:39:30,841 --> 00:39:32,111
Wow, that's a good question.

679
00:39:32,801 --> 00:39:37,836
I think it fundamentally boils
down to  being kind to yourself.

680
00:39:39,251 --> 00:39:43,131
And as I say, accepting that
these things will happen.

681
00:39:43,671 --> 00:39:46,201
And it doesn't mean that
you're a mean, nasty person.

682
00:39:47,291 --> 00:39:53,201
And, and just  taking it as you
would, that actually sometimes y- even

683
00:39:53,201 --> 00:39:56,071
though you feel awful, there might
be something that you can learn from

684
00:39:56,071 --> 00:40:00,651
that  complaint,  things do go wrong.

685
00:40:00,941 --> 00:40:02,101
We all make mistakes.

686
00:40:02,171 --> 00:40:04,921
Maybe we have delivered the
feedback in a terrible way.

687
00:40:04,921 --> 00:40:08,151
We've had a bad day or we've
misunderstood something.

688
00:40:08,451 --> 00:40:11,771
So I do think it you know, the default
position I know is to beat ourselves

689
00:40:11,771 --> 00:40:13,412
up immediately and then want to hide.

690
00:40:13,921 --> 00:40:17,311
But actually, you know, to, to try
and see, okay, is there anything

691
00:40:17,311 --> 00:40:18,841
positive that I can take from it?

692
00:40:18,871 --> 00:40:23,131
And it may just be simply  I've had
a grievance and I've got through it,

693
00:40:23,291 --> 00:40:25,001
and now I know what the situation is.

694
00:40:25,371 --> 00:40:29,531
The next time it happens I,
I'll be, I'll be more prepared.

695
00:40:29,911 --> 00:40:31,041
And it's the same with the doctors.

696
00:40:31,041 --> 00:40:36,031
When the doctors first get  a
complaint, it's absolutely devastating.

697
00:40:36,611 --> 00:40:41,461
But, being a GP in this day and
age, you're going to get complaints.

698
00:40:41,461 --> 00:40:46,061
You're going to get aggressive
abusive patients unfortunately.

699
00:40:46,791 --> 00:40:48,381
And it's just being resilient.

700
00:40:48,991 --> 00:40:52,551
And as I say, being kind to yourself
and knowing that, that actually

701
00:40:53,002 --> 00:40:57,142
you don't need to berate yourself, which
I think is what we often will end up doing

702
00:40:57,642 --> 00:41:01,622
Sometimes I think we also rush to get
the learning too soon before we do

703
00:41:01,622 --> 00:41:05,762
the, " Okay, I'm feeling crap about
this," the, the be kind to yourself

704
00:41:05,822 --> 00:41:07,862
bit. 'Cause I'm a leader, I should
just be able to take it, say, "Right,

705
00:41:07,862 --> 00:41:09,102
what can I learn and where have I been

706
00:41:09,102 --> 00:41:12,332
bad?" Actually, sometimes we just need to
go and have a bit of a cry and go, "Oh.

707
00:41:12,881 --> 00:41:13,041
Uh,

708
00:41:13,103 --> 00:41:13,691
totally.

709
00:41:14,131 --> 00:41:14,381
Yeah

710
00:41:14,501 --> 00:41:16,071
I, I absolutely agree.

711
00:41:16,071 --> 00:41:21,241
I do think that as I say,  our default
position as doctors is, "Right, gotta

712
00:41:21,241 --> 00:41:25,321
fix it. Okay, let's fix this," without
really actually giving ourselves the

713
00:41:25,321 --> 00:41:29,741
time and the space to  understand
how it's impacted us emotionally.

714
00:41:30,031 --> 00:41:35,565
And I think that's one of the things
that after adverse incidents people are

715
00:41:35,565 --> 00:41:38,185
just expected to literally just carry on.

716
00:41:38,572 --> 00:41:42,472
And, and I think that is something
that, that is, is a bad practice

717
00:41:43,442 --> 00:41:44,602
within the healthcare system.

718
00:41:44,602 --> 00:41:45,792
Particularly you've had a

719
00:41:45,792 --> 00:41:49,552
patient death, for example, that
clearly is going to impact you and

720
00:41:49,552 --> 00:41:51,612
the team and, and time is required

721
00:41:52,250 --> 00:41:54,170
So there'll be some
people listening to this,

722
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,440
particularly,

723
00:41:55,660 --> 00:41:59,940
lead- senior leaders, and they could
be male or female, that  realize that

724
00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:03,850
they've been maybe people-pleasing all
over the place, but haven't been, like,

725
00:42:03,850 --> 00:42:05,480
making the decisions that need to be made.

726
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,210
And it might have cost them a bit
of their team's respect,  maybe

727
00:42:10,210 --> 00:42:11,520
their own sense of self as well.

728
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,300
So how would that person
start to change or start to

729
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,548
reset within the
organization  where they are?

730
00:42:19,870 --> 00:42:22,940
Yeah, I'd love to hear if you've had
any experience of thinking, "Oh, yeah,

731
00:42:22,940 --> 00:42:26,800
yeah, I was probably too soft," and,
"Let's just res- reset here and step

732
00:42:26,930 --> 00:42:28,500
back into that leader that I am."

733
00:42:29,330 --> 00:42:34,220
I think it would be really hard   to be
honest, and I, I have to say personally.

734
00:42:34,220 --> 00:42:38,430
So I started at the MPS
when I was quite young.

735
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,810
I left as a trainee
ophthalmologist to, to join.

736
00:42:43,850 --> 00:42:47,880
And I certainly was really conscious,
even whilst I was progressing through the

737
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:53,350
organization, that people still saw me  as
this young, junior, fresh-faced person.

738
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,860
So it was quite difficult
to try and reinvent yourself

739
00:42:57,830 --> 00:42:59,220
within the organization.

740
00:42:59,540 --> 00:43:01,060
So I did various things.

741
00:43:01,060 --> 00:43:05,110
Like I say, I you know, took
up any opportunity to develop,

742
00:43:05,110 --> 00:43:07,490
to learn, to go on courses.

743
00:43:08,022 --> 00:43:10,645
I think the first thing is
to identify the problem.

744
00:43:10,985 --> 00:43:14,925
So I think if you've realized that
actually you've been a bit too soft,

745
00:43:15,115 --> 00:43:20,885
people aren't respecting you, is A,
to identify it, B, to then have a, a

746
00:43:20,885 --> 00:43:25,445
sort of a, a plan, a development plan
as to how you're gonna address that.

747
00:43:25,855 --> 00:43:30,175
And sometimes it may be that actually
you have to call it out and be completely

748
00:43:30,175 --> 00:43:34,895
open and honest with the team and be
like, "Okay, look, going forward, this

749
00:43:34,895 --> 00:43:38,795
is the expectation that I've got from
you, and this is how we're going to move

750
00:43:39,955 --> 00:43:40,415
move on."

751
00:43:40,894 --> 00:43:41,344
Yeah.

752
00:43:41,344 --> 00:43:44,784
It, it is, it is quite hard to reset in
a position that you are in, isn't it?

753
00:43:44,784 --> 00:43:46,804
Sometimes easier to go
out and then come back

754
00:43:46,804 --> 00:43:47,994
in at a different level.

755
00:43:48,364 --> 00:43:51,324
But also not, not be scared of doing
that, not be scared of moving around

756
00:43:51,324 --> 00:43:54,004
organizations 'cause you learn different
things in different places, don't you?

757
00:43:54,492 --> 00:43:55,532
Oh, absolutely.

758
00:43:55,532 --> 00:43:59,802
I mean, When I left, I'd been
at MPS for 14 and a half years,

759
00:44:00,132 --> 00:44:02,482
and I was very comfortable.

760
00:44:02,902 --> 00:44:04,352
I knew what I was doing.

761
00:44:05,012 --> 00:44:07,162
It was just… And I
loved what I was doing.

762
00:44:07,452 --> 00:44:12,102
But I knew in order to push myself
further and to get the experience

763
00:44:12,102 --> 00:44:17,082
that I really needed to, to be able to
add value should I come back, was to

764
00:44:17,082 --> 00:44:20,032
go out into a different environment.

765
00:44:20,532 --> 00:44:23,482
And it was scary 'cause I was
like what am I doing this for?"

766
00:44:23,622 --> 00:44:25,422
I had a perfectly good job.

767
00:44:25,772 --> 00:44:27,552
You know, I knew what I was doing.

768
00:44:27,552 --> 00:44:30,512
I had so many  great
colleagues and friends.

769
00:44:30,733 --> 00:44:33,352
on reflection, it was the best
thing that I could have done because

770
00:44:33,571 --> 00:44:37,201
it  built my confidence certainly
that actually, yes, I can, I

771
00:44:37,201 --> 00:44:40,411
can  be there in the big, bad
world and get a good job and

772
00:44:40,411 --> 00:44:43,065
learn more skills and hold my own,

773
00:44:43,390 --> 00:44:45,687
establish myself in a new organization.

774
00:44:46,588 --> 00:44:47,380
so Yeah.

775
00:44:47,410 --> 00:44:47,873
it was,

776
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:49,480
as they say,

777
00:44:50,070 --> 00:44:51,280
high risk, high reward.

778
00:44:52,255 --> 00:44:55,315
So I know that you've done
a lot of research into,

779
00:44:56,235 --> 00:44:59,495
gender and boards and
senior leadership and stuff.

780
00:45:00,125 --> 00:45:06,755
What would you say to  somebody who  is
thinking of doing a senior leadership

781
00:45:06,805 --> 00:45:11,518
role  but not sure they can   cope
with the hard-nosedness that they

782
00:45:11,618 --> 00:45:15,188
think that is going to require, or
the criticism that's gonna come their

783
00:45:15,188 --> 00:45:19,658
way, or the  potential effects on
their, on their work-life balance?

784
00:45:19,658 --> 00:45:22,998
'Cause I know that is what often stops
a lot of women taking up these,  these

785
00:45:22,998 --> 00:45:25,858
senior leadership roles or, as you
were saying earlier,  even going

786
00:45:25,858 --> 00:45:29,188
to pr- to do some private medicine
and, and all that sort of stuff.

787
00:45:29,938 --> 00:45:33,528
What would you say that, to try and
help  people that may have been held

788
00:45:33,528 --> 00:45:35,098
back by, by something like that?

789
00:45:35,755 --> 00:45:41,415
I think maybe there are lots of
misperceptions a- about what is expected.

790
00:45:42,015 --> 00:45:48,535
And I think workplaces are adapting  to
allow and to be a bit more welcoming

791
00:45:48,535 --> 00:45:52,125
for women in leadership, probably
not quite as fast as we would like.

792
00:45:52,885 --> 00:45:56,155
So I think it… Actually hearing
it from the horse's mouth, maybe

793
00:45:56,155 --> 00:45:59,525
speaking to somebody who's already
in a leadership role to really

794
00:45:59,525 --> 00:46:01,315
understand what it does entail.

795
00:46:01,851 --> 00:46:06,414
As I say, that allows you then to
make a bit of a more informed decision

796
00:46:07,454 --> 00:46:09,344
rather than just being s- too afraid.

797
00:46:10,524 --> 00:46:15,124
And then again, maybe just taking the risk
of doing it and seeing if you like it.

798
00:46:15,304 --> 00:46:18,294
You don't have to do it for life,
and I think that's one of the

799
00:46:18,294 --> 00:46:21,324
things people think once, " Oh once
I've committed, then that's it."

800
00:46:22,929 --> 00:46:24,294
people change their mind.

801
00:46:24,364 --> 00:46:26,054
Jobs have probation periods.

802
00:46:27,604 --> 00:46:29,574
it's not the end of the
world if it's not for you

803
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:32,100
Yeah, and we need to get over
this idea in medicine that if

804
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:34,000
I  stop doing that job, I failed.

805
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:37,555
'Cause you can try a job and
decide you don't like it, right?

806
00:46:38,536 --> 00:46:39,036
Exactly.

807
00:46:39,036 --> 00:46:42,546
And that's, I think, where the difference
is between  professional people like

808
00:46:42,546 --> 00:46:45,136
us and people out in, in other jobs.

809
00:46:45,136 --> 00:46:46,796
People move jobs all the time.

810
00:46:46,796 --> 00:46:50,416
They change sector, they cha- and
I'm like and we're sat here going,

811
00:46:50,416 --> 00:46:51,906
"Oh no, we can only do one thing."

812
00:46:52,110 --> 00:46:54,670
I, I think one of the biggest things
that holds people back is this fear,

813
00:46:54,740 --> 00:46:57,350
like you said, of the wellbeing, the
effect of their job on the wellbeing.

814
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,620
So is there a version of senior
leadership in medicine or in commercial

815
00:47:01,620 --> 00:47:05,930
organizations like,  like,  like the
one you're in that's  both effective

816
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,530
and genuinely sustainable so you
can make difficult decisions, absorb

817
00:47:10,530 --> 00:47:14,780
pushback,  and still go home and not be
completely depleted by the end of the day?

818
00:47:15,457 --> 00:47:15,687
Yeah.

819
00:47:15,927 --> 00:47:18,947
I think if you're able to do that in
medicine generally, you're probably able

820
00:47:18,947 --> 00:47:22,727
to do it in leadership because quite
frankly, the sorts of decisions that

821
00:47:22,727 --> 00:47:27,613
you're making, although on scale may
seem bigger   actually from the point of

822
00:47:27,613 --> 00:47:32,905
view of, And this is why   since I left
the NHS, I've never allowed myself to

823
00:47:32,905 --> 00:47:39,585
get too stressed about the decisions I'm
taking because fundamentally,  people

824
00:47:39,585 --> 00:47:43,515
aren't going to die  from the decisions
that I make in the commercial world.

825
00:47:43,985 --> 00:47:47,825
Whereas you as a doctor, the decisions
you're taking on a daily basis

826
00:47:47,825 --> 00:47:49,545
really do impact people's lives.

827
00:47:49,915 --> 00:47:53,595
So I think that's how I've
been able to, to deal with it.

828
00:47:53,595 --> 00:47:57,965
And often you know, you're not, you're not
having to make those sorts of decisions.

829
00:47:57,965 --> 00:48:02,325
So if,  if as a doctor you are able to
do that,  you're gonna be able to do

830
00:48:02,325 --> 00:48:08,095
it in a leadership role  because the
stakes aren't as high from a personal

831
00:48:08,095 --> 00:48:12,905
perspective you know, for a,  for a you
know, patient at the end of your advice.

832
00:48:13,677 --> 00:48:16,497
And so  if someone was listening to this
and they're thinking, "Right, I really

833
00:48:16,497 --> 00:48:20,577
need to step up.   I want to do something
differently," what would you,  what

834
00:48:20,577 --> 00:48:25,037
would your main advice, your sort of
three top tips be for  people that are

835
00:48:25,037 --> 00:48:30,017
stepping into those senior leadership
roles  that are just a bit un- unsure?

836
00:48:30,678 --> 00:48:31,868
One, be brave.

837
00:48:33,512 --> 00:48:35,294
Two, be kind to yourself.

838
00:48:35,831 --> 00:48:41,028
And three, make sure that you
get support  from a mentor.

839
00:48:41,028 --> 00:48:44,608
If it's your first leadership
role,  I think it's so important.

840
00:48:44,898 --> 00:48:48,728
And actually, I don't even think
it's for, for leadership roles.

841
00:48:48,728 --> 00:48:54,658
I'm, I'm a real believer that actually
even doctors who s- are starting off as a

842
00:48:54,658 --> 00:48:59,768
new consultant or new in private practice
would really value having somebody more

843
00:48:59,768 --> 00:49:07,008
senior to be able to talk to  just even
to discuss ev- cases that they found

844
00:49:07,008 --> 00:49:09,528
tricky or just generally in navigating,

845
00:49:09,978 --> 00:49:14,428
' cause it's such a step up from being
a registrar  to suddenly having that

846
00:49:14,428 --> 00:49:17,528
responsibility of, of being a consultant

847
00:49:18,110 --> 00:49:24,600
And I think it is genuinely very, very
difficult to overcome our  people-pleasing

848
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,160
tendencies and and, and get the
courage to be disliked on your own.

849
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,603
It's almost impossible, isn't it?

850
00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:32,760
You need to have a sounding board.

851
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,350
You need to have someone you can  sense
check stuff with, and, and that is

852
00:49:36,350 --> 00:49:38,800
something  we are in control of.

853
00:49:38,940 --> 00:49:41,820
You can go and get a coach, and
there's all sorts of free coaching

854
00:49:41,820 --> 00:49:44,390
offers that's going on in the
NHS that are just underutilized.

855
00:49:44,390 --> 00:49:47,890
So like, if you have    free
coaching in your area,  go and

856
00:49:47,890 --> 00:49:49,900
get, go and get the free coaching.

857
00:49:50,340 --> 00:49:51,600
Go find yourself a mentor.

858
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,730
Most people are really pleased
to say, "Can I take you out for

859
00:49:53,730 --> 00:49:55,420
lunch once a month and chat?"

860
00:49:55,420 --> 00:49:55,920
Or whatever.

861
00:49:56,300 --> 00:49:59,550
Or get a group of friends around you
just to, like, sense check stuff with.

862
00:49:59,550 --> 00:50:02,230
It just makes things so much
easier, like you've already said.

863
00:50:02,787 --> 00:50:04,957
Yeah, you're sharing the
burden as it were, aren't you?

864
00:50:04,957 --> 00:50:07,557
You just, and it, you
just feel more confident.

865
00:50:07,557 --> 00:50:11,787
So I, I am a believer of
taking those opportunities.

866
00:50:11,787 --> 00:50:14,837
Like you say, if there are free
training courses, absolutely.

867
00:50:15,577 --> 00:50:20,377
I will always seek out whatever
development that I can get, particularly

868
00:50:20,377 --> 00:50:22,357
if it's being put on by your employer.

869
00:50:23,587 --> 00:50:28,467
There's no excuse really to, to not do-
I say that, obviously people are busy.

870
00:50:28,877 --> 00:50:33,397
But you know, if you, if you
genuinely want to be looking at

871
00:50:33,397 --> 00:50:37,837
management or leadership,  then these
opportunities are really valuable

872
00:50:38,371 --> 00:50:38,641
Yeah.

873
00:50:38,671 --> 00:50:42,781
And  just because you're really good  at
being a doctor and you're a consultant and

874
00:50:42,781 --> 00:50:46,521
you're good at managing your patients, it
doesn't mean that you have  automatically

875
00:50:47,061 --> 00:50:51,211
got the skills to do that, that polit-
difficult political maneuvering in, in,

876
00:50:51,211 --> 00:50:52,761
in board meetings and things like that.

877
00:50:52,791 --> 00:50:55,231
And genuinely, there are things
that,  skills that you can

878
00:50:55,231 --> 00:50:56,761
learn that can really be helpful

879
00:50:57,282 --> 00:50:58,142
Oh, absolutely.

880
00:50:58,142 --> 00:51:06,788
And, and it is true that a lot of senior
consultants   just don't have those skills

881
00:51:06,788 --> 00:51:08,837
because I mean, we, we're not taught them.

882
00:51:09,327 --> 00:51:14,437
It, it's all done osmotically,
it during  your career.

883
00:51:14,437 --> 00:51:18,145
And often we have terrible role
models actually  w- when we were,

884
00:51:18,725 --> 00:51:19,515
junior doctors.

885
00:51:19,785 --> 00:51:23,655
So it is a skill that is separate.

886
00:51:24,095 --> 00:51:28,625
Clinical acumen and competence  is,
is totally different to being

887
00:51:28,625 --> 00:51:30,525
a, an effective medical leader.

888
00:51:30,755 --> 00:51:33,595
I'm not saying the two are mutually
exclusive, but, but it doesn't, it's

889
00:51:33,595 --> 00:51:37,175
not an automatic that because you're
good at  clinical stuff, you're

890
00:51:37,175 --> 00:51:39,115
going to be a good medical leader

891
00:51:39,654 --> 00:51:40,734
We're nearly at time now.

892
00:51:41,264 --> 00:51:41,874
Thank you so much.

893
00:51:41,874 --> 00:51:42,704
That was so insightful.

894
00:51:42,704 --> 00:51:46,664
I think the thing that's really landed
for me is  treating this  fear of being

895
00:51:46,664 --> 00:51:51,214
disliked or this  possibility of formal
complaints or people criticizing you as

896
00:51:51,214 --> 00:51:56,434
an occupational hazard,  just like you
would as a doctor treat a complaint by a

897
00:51:56,434 --> 00:51:58,914
patient as an, as an occupational hazard.

898
00:51:58,914 --> 00:52:01,564
I think  that just helps
depersonalize it a lot

899
00:52:02,265 --> 00:52:02,985
So thank you.

900
00:52:03,195 --> 00:52:03,455
And,

901
00:52:04,205 --> 00:52:06,845
if people wanted to find more
about you and your work and what

902
00:52:06,845 --> 00:52:08,195
you do, where can they find out?

903
00:52:08,553 --> 00:52:12,224
um,  I'm on LinkedIn, so more
than happy for, for people,

904
00:52:12,265 --> 00:52:14,035
um, to connect if they want to do that.

905
00:52:14,035 --> 00:52:16,705
And I, obviously I'm at Medical
Protection, so people can

906
00:52:16,705 --> 00:52:18,275
get hold of me that way also

907
00:52:18,663 --> 00:52:18,983
Brilliant.

908
00:52:19,013 --> 00:52:21,273
It's been so, so brilliant
talking to you, Pallavi.

909
00:52:21,303 --> 00:52:23,813
Thank you so much for sparing the
time, and we'll speak to you soon

910
00:52:24,743 --> 00:52:25,493
Thanks so much