FOR ROSS - EPISODE 3 PART 1 RICHARD COLLAB DEFUSION

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 56 of People's Soup. It's Ross Macintosh here.

[00:00:06]

[00:00:08] Richard: in coaching contexts this becomes really, really relevant in situations where someone begins the process by saying, I want more confidence. You know, I want to be a more confident person at work and inevitably we'll get to an exploration of what is it you're hearing? What is it you're thinking about yourself?

[00:00:29] And a focus on that. means that we don't end up doing what many people think we do, which might be standing on a chair and role playing, giving a presentation or adopting some kind of confident body language. But instead we're saying, well, that's just a thought about you. Doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

[00:00:49] And it doesn't mean you have to get rid of it. It's just noise. Let's focus on what you would like to do. If confidence weren't part of this, if you didn't know the word existed, what would you be doing?

[00:01:00] Ross: Peace you buzz, it's the third part of our mini series, things related to Psychological Flexibility and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, or ACT. We're aiming to show you how relevant it is, not only to your work life, but to your whole life. Listen on to part 3A of the mini series where we introduce and begin to explore the process of cognitive diffusion.

[00:01:29] We talk about how our unhelpful thoughts can be grabby, sticky, and loud. We consider how they impact on our behaviour and reflect on the liberating phrase, A thought is just a thought. Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi! [00:02:00] Hola! Welcome to the community. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:09] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:16] Thanks to everyone who listened, shared, talked about, and rated our last episode, which was called Perspectacles. It was a 10 minute episode exploring perspective taking with help from some interesting research and a former guest.

[00:02:30] With your help, we're reaching more people with stuff that could help them in their lives, both in and outside of work. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 3A of my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon.

[00:02:48] Richard: So what are we going to talk about in this episode?

[00:02:51] Ross: We're gonna be taking a pause and thinking about our thoughts. Particularly how we can develop a new relationship with our thoughts. And if that sounds a bit woo woo, don't worry because we're gonna unpick that. When we talk about relationship with thoughts it might sound a bit unusual, but we're going to be considering the nature of our thoughts, just how many we experience every day for a start.

[00:03:16] And not only thoughts, we also experience emotions, memories, sensations, urges. And how we relate to them is super important. What we decide to do with them can have a huge impact on our behavior and what we do next.

[00:03:31] Richard: And last time we talked about the power of noticing and being present in the moment. And a point that comes up all the time is, that's all very well, but what if I don't like what I notice? And so today is all about this skill of learning how you can be Not like the stuff your mind gives you and continue at the same time.

[00:03:51] You don't have to do anything with that. You don't have to deal with that stuff. You can, as Ross said, cultivate a new relationship [00:04:00] with it where it's not as grabby or sticky or loud, but it's just another thought, which is what this all boils down to, really.

[00:04:09] Ross: Yeah, I love the language you use about sticky and grabby and tangled, because that's how it can feel as a human. We can get really immersed in those thoughts and treat them as if they're like 100 percent true or 100 percent worthy of our full attention.

[00:04:28] Our inner experience

[00:04:28] Richard: And we talked about, daydreaming last time and how that's lovely. It's really nice to get lost in, you know, nice thoughts, but we can also get tangled up in thoughts about stuff that either has happened in the past or hasn't happened yet. And we can all identify with that feeling that we're struggling with that to the extent that it's taking us away from the here and now that we're really living in an internal mental life.

[00:04:56] To the detriment of the physical world around us and those people and tasks and activities that we'd ideally like to be fully engaged with, because sometimes we want to exert some control over those inner experiences, or sometimes called private experiences, because only I can experience them. I can tell you about them, but that's not the same as you experiencing my memory.

[00:05:20] Controlling our thoughts

[00:05:20] Richard: So they're going on inside of me, and I might try and control them. Minimize them, push them away, change them. And of course we've all tried that, but we all know it's impossible not to think of something. Once you've thought of it, it's impossible to, you know, remove a memory the way that you would delete a file on your computer.

[00:05:40] Our minds just don't work that way. So fundamental, this whole skill set is learning how to maybe step away from those automatic responses, those learned responses to the thoughts we don't like, and try something kind of radically different, which is to end the struggle with them.

[00:05:58] Ross: I love how you [00:06:00] describe it about deleting a file from your computer. I'm going to use a mechanical analogy too. And this has just popped into my head. But, bear with me. If you have your car and it's, and it's not functioning very well, and you take it to the garage and you find out it needs new spark plugs, look at me, talking about spark plugs.

[00:06:23] And, So the mechanic takes out the old spark plugs and puts in new ones. the engine doesn't remember the old spark plugs and that, that memory of them. But it's not the same thing that happens in our minds. We've got the memory of past, uh, thoughts and those memories of when things didn't go well last time.

[00:06:44] And we can use them as a guide and perhaps limit ourself, perhaps quite often in fact limit ourselves. And society can teach us that we, we can get rid of them. Oh, cheer up. Turn that frown upside down, Richard, young man. All sorts of, oh, don't worry.

[00:07:04] Richard: Cheer up, calm down.

[00:07:06] Ross: those things we say to each other and ourselves.

[00:07:10] Uh, uh, they're not effective strategies for us.

[00:07:15] We don't get taught the skills

[00:07:15] Richard: And you know, the, the way that it amazes me that we have this rich inner life and yet we don't really get taught the skills of how to navigate it. You know, we don't have conversations about, just because you've imagined that, it doesn't make you a bad person. Just because you have that memory, it doesn't mean you have to sit with it and let it play out for the next 15 minutes.

[00:07:36] Just because you have that thought about yourself, it doesn't mean it's true. This sort of societal, at least western society, belief is, you should remove that, You should suppress that, or you should replace that bad thought with a good thought. Which again, we know doesn't work, because all we're doing is linking [00:08:00] the so called bad thought with the good thought, and making a very strong association between them.

[00:08:06] So a lot of what we're taught, or a lot of what is expected of us, really, flies in the face of our, our wellbeing and our, our capacity to navigate this stuff that our own mind is giving us. There's a, there's a real irony in that.

[00:08:21] I thought it was just me

[00:08:21] Ross: You're absolutely right. I think these skills that I certainly wasn't taught in my education or my further training and degrees, and I don't know about you Richard, but sometimes when I share this idea that we can change the relationship with our thoughts, and particularly perhaps using a metaphor, people will say to me, Oh, I thought it was just me.

[00:08:46] They had these thoughts. they hadn't actually vocalised this with anyone else in their lives before. And it's kind of like, my goodness, we need to spread the word further and faster.

[00:08:59] Dragged down by our own thoughts

[00:08:59] Richard: At the risk of incurring the wrath of purists, I would say that this skill that we're going to talk about today, this skill of cognitive diffusion is So impactful, in fact, possibly the most impactful element of what we're going to be talking about because of our shared human experience of from time to time being pulled back or dragged down or prevented by acting by our own thoughts.

[00:09:26] What potential could we unleash in everyone if everyone understood that It's just a thought. It's not a restriction. It's not an ultimatum. It's not a command. It's just another piece of mental stuff. Flotsam. Floating through my awareness.

[00:09:45] Ross: Beautiful. So we've mentioned this word, diffusion. And I wonder if we could unpack that, because this diffusion is about changing our relationship, isn't it? Um,

[00:09:57] Richard: This is one of those words that [00:10:00] it's useful to explain what it is because it doesn't technically exist in, in English in the way that we're using it. You know, people don't go around talking about de fusion. And in fact, if you start to write this, your computer will probably automatically correct it to delusion, um, which is again, a not very commonly used word, but what we're talking about here.

[00:10:21] Um, and I, I like the way I think it was Russ Harris, described it, that we're learning how to see our thoughts for what they actually are, not what they say they are. So many of our thoughts don't present themselves in any sort of timid or tentative way. They sound like facts, they sound like commands, they sound like ultimate truth, but diffusion allows us to take a step back, metaphorically, and go, Is it really?

[00:10:48] Do I need to? Must that always be that way? And, and, and you're not even necessarily deal with each of these thoughts, but instead I use a lot of physical metaphors to sort of keep your hands by your sides. Keep your hands out of the machinery. Don't try and do anything with them because they're going to move along.

[00:11:07] And we all have that experience. That's something that everyone can identify with. Once one thought has moved along, there will be another to replace it and another one after that. This constant stream of consciousness that we we experience. And so we're moving away from any attempts to control, minimize, remove, or alter our thoughts.

[00:11:27] And we're keeping our hands away and just letting it go on its merry way. That is so different to control attempts, removal attempts, replacement attempts. And Probably before we go any further, it's worth just broadening this out a little bit to make the point that in ACT terms, Acceptance and Commitment Theory terms, we can use the word thinking to describe all that mental content, rather than getting super specific about the difference between all these things.

[00:11:56] It's images, it's memories, it's predictions, it's [00:12:00] ideas, reminders, self talk, we can refer to that as thinking. And that could be really helpful as we'll see a little bit later on when we're practicing this skill. You know, to, to see it all as well, that's thinking as opposed to doing outside of me or hearing from outside of me, that's, that's going on inside of me.

[00:12:19] And that distinction is a really important one to make. But does that make sense? And if we view it as a skill, why would we want to learn it in the first place?

[00:12:30] Ross: Yeah, I love that. And I love your idea of getting physical and keeping your hands out of the machinery. And I'd also use my hands just to talk about why we want to do this. So for those of you watching on video, I'm waving my left hand and saying, that's me. And I'm waving my right hand and saying, that's me.

[00:12:51] That's that unhelpful stuff. That's that thinking, that thoughts that my mind generates. And quite often we're like this. And what I've done there, for those listening on audio, is I've clasped my hands tightly together. And they're like glued together. And if I try and struggle to get them apart, now, that bond actually gets stronger.

[00:13:15] But what we're trying to do with these skills, these techniques, is we're trying to get a bit of space between ourselves, that's the left hand, and that unhelpful stuff in our minds. So I've just separated my hands again and I'm now wiggling my thumbs towards each other. And that space where my thumbs are wiggling between me and that content, that's some of the healthiest psychological space we can have.

[00:13:40] And for me that kind of I dunno if how that's landed, but for me, that kind of represents why we would want to do this.

[00:13:48] Richard: I love that because I'm thinking of workshops in the past and even one to one coaching sessions where I've used that clasped hands thing to explain where defusion comes from, because that's fusion. [00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Ross: Hmm

[00:14:01] Richard: about it briefly in our very first episode, the way that we can pay more attention to thoughts than they deserve.

[00:14:07] We can buy into them as truths when they don't really deserve that. And we're fusing with them. They're taking, maybe too much of our attention, too much of our energy, shall we say. And diffusion is that, being still having them. This is a really important point. We still have the thoughts. We're not getting rid of them.

[00:14:26] We still have them. But we've got that space between us and them. In fact, we're, we're becoming aware of them in a different way. we're looking at the thoughts, not through the thoughts. I think that's another Russ Harris, uh, way of explaining it in the sense that, you know, if you took off your glasses, you would still have your glasses.

[00:14:46] You just wouldn't be looking through them. And therefore the world would look quite different. once you realize you can have thoughts and not need to do anything with them, why it really frees up an awful lot of attention and energy and capacity, because there's no more struggle. There's no more need to solve these thoughts or process them or work at changing them into something more pleasant or something nicer.

[00:15:12] You don't need to do anything to them.

[00:15:15] Ross: hmm.

[00:15:16] So when our minds generate these thoughts, they're doing exactly what our minds have evolved to do. We're not broken. We don't need fixing. And this is one of the things that really attracted me to act, is that it's part of the human experience to have these thoughts that are, they're not good or bad, what we like to call them is helpful or unhelpful in any given context. And the environments in which we now operate and live are very different to when we lived in caves. But our minds are still operating as if they need to protect us and keep us safe from danger.

[00:15:55] Richard: So these thoughts often present themselves with a sense of urgency [00:16:00] or fact, or like I said earlier, an ultimatum. And I think we can all identify with things that we don't want to experience mentally, like thoughts about ourselves and our abilities, or how likable we are, or how successful we are, or thoughts about the future.

[00:16:17] We talked about catastrophization previously, and sometimes our tendency to see terrible disasters in the future. And what we're missing there is the capacity to step past that and see actually, something could be difficult. Or uncomfortable or ambiguous, but that's not a catastrophe. That's not danger.

[00:16:38] Given this content by our minds

[00:16:38] Richard: That's not a threat. It's just something that we might not enjoy. And learning to see that we're being given this content by our minds, that's a very strange phrase, but The opposite to that is when we just identify with our thoughts. I am my thoughts Well, that means that every thought I have that isn't a very nice thought means i'm not a very nice person Whereas if we can frame things as my mind is a thing It's evolved to keep me safe and it's giving me stuff.

[00:17:07] It's giving me mental content. It's giving me messages What I do with them is up to me And sometimes I might just take them and put them over here You And crack on with what I was doing anyway. So if we're able to start and listeners and viewers, this is something you can start with this. Where is my mind and what is it giving me rather than I am everything I experience mentally?

[00:17:34] And that can really open people's eyes to, okay, there's a different way of thinking about my own thinking. There's a different way of looking at it. And instead of I'm the recipient who must process and deal with it. I've got a choice and that's nice, isn't it?

[00:17:53] Ross: And yeah, it gives us that choice and it frees us up to appreciate and observe different perspectives [00:18:00] on maybe something we've been struggling with and been so deeply ingrained in the way we think that we can't see the wood for the trees.

[00:18:10] Richard: in coaching contexts this becomes really, really relevant in situations where someone begins the process by saying, I want more confidence. You know, I want to be a more confident person at work and inevitably we'll get to an exploration of what is it you're hearing? What is it you're thinking about yourself?

[00:18:31] And a focus on that. means that we don't end up doing what many people think we do, which might be standing on a chair and role playing, giving a presentation or adopting some kind of confident body language. But instead we're saying, well, that's just a thought about you. Doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

[00:18:51] And it doesn't mean you have to get rid of it. It's just noise. Let's focus on what you would like to do. If confidence weren't part of this, if you didn't know the word existed, what would you be doing? And it, and it reframes the whole thing. Instead of, I need to feel confident before I can do this thing, or I'm going to somehow conjure up confidence.

[00:19:12] So no, what would I do? And then of course, confidence will come after doing it. But seeing the thoughts about myself that hold me back, that criticize me, or that are full of fear of failure. I can, instead of, I need to deal with the fear of failure to see, well, it's just a thought and actually if I do nothing to it, it's going to move along.

[00:19:32] And then there'll be another thought, probably about dinner, and then there'll be another thought about my commute, and so on, and so on. And that's why I argue this is so powerful. That teaching people diffusion based skills frees them up to do more of what's really important to them. Remove the need to wrestle with the stuff that our mind gives us that we don't really like and this philosophical shift Uh, we talk about light bulb moments in coaching a lot But i've seen [00:20:00] more light bulb moments on this topic than all the others put put together when someone goes It's just a thought and that's a thought too and that memory's a thought and that that story I tell myself about me That's a thought as well.

[00:20:13] So I don't need to do anything with them That is one of the things that brings me the most satisfaction as a practitioner. so that's why I kind of, I'm, I'm passionate about this because whether it's ruminating over the past, being fearful over the future, criticizing myself, being judgmental about other people.

[00:20:31] Thoughts. It's all thoughts. And this skill, therefore, is generalizable to all of these situations, all of these moments where our mind gives us something, uh, that's not particularly palatable.

[00:20:44] Ross: hearing you describe this, it kind of blows my mind all over again, just to hear someone else say it. And I know this, and I practice these skills, but it's just such an important message. a thought is just a thought.

[00:21:00] Richard: And if, listener, you decide to stop here, you've just heard diffusion in one sentence. A thought is just a thought. Using that as your mantra, is a thought. a fantastic start, and bringing that to your awareness when upset, worried, stuck, stopped in your tracks, a thought is just a thought, can really give you pause to realize what am I basing my next action on?

[00:21:29] Is it something happening in the room? Is it something on the screen? Or is it something up here that is just a thought? And do I need to give it the attention it's asking for? But we do want to give you more to work with. But if that's all you heard, that's a really, really good start.

[00:21:47] Ross: yeah, but don't go just yet. Because I want to share what I, how I would introduce these skills in, in group work. Because again, I use these in, [00:22:00] in one to one coaching, but also in group work. And again, sometimes it's a privilege to see someone going, Oh my God. When they get this really simple concept but realize the potential it has to transform their lives and unleash their potential.

[00:22:18] That's it, folks. Part 3A, The Introduction to Cognitive Fusion, in the bag. Next week, we continue with a deeper dive into cognitive diffusion. And surprisingly enough, that will be called Part 3B. A hearty thanks to Richard. We're having great fun with this collaboration.

[00:22:42] Here at PeopleSoup, we're on a mission to reach more adults with this behavioral science. And we could really do with your help. so

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[00:23:29] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:23:42] Richard: Fantastic. I'm really enjoying these recordings with you. And if it's not obvious, I'm also learning a lot in how we're talking this through. It really, really brings it to life. So thank you very much.