REMASTER PART 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there. And a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 49 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Sarah: as the messaging and looking at this stuff, the main question I get from people is, what about health? And over the years, weight has been increasingly tied to health. And for some people that can be a point of like, justifying a comment that they might make. So they might make a comment on someone's body and be like, well, I'm just concerned about their health. Or even towards ourselves, we might make a body related comment, or I need to do something because it's about my health, and it gets really, really closely tied to weight.

[00:00:44] And I think it's important to remember that weight and health can be two separate things. So you can do health related behaviours, you can experience really big shifts in your health, and notice those body changes. And it not necessarily change anything on the scale. So teasing apart weight and health.

[00:01:07] Ross: Peasoopers, I'm continuing my chat with Dr. Sarah Pegram this week. Sarah is a clinical psychologist. Peer reviewed ACT trainer, curator of the ACT Body Project, and author of the book, Break the Binds of Weight Stigma, Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

[00:01:28] In this episode, we dive into the book, starting with my review, and moving on to reflect on how weight stigma might show up in the workplace and what we can do about it. Sarah's book and her reflections are so powerful, provocative, and eye opening.

[00:01:44] Now, P. Supers, at times the sound quality isn't perfect. Sometimes it feels a bit tidal. So I've tried every which way to enhance the recording for your listening pleasure, including a sound engineer. So, just a reminder that there is a transcript if you don't catch every [00:02:00] word.

[00:02:00] I don't want you to miss out on Sarah's inspirational reflections.

[00:02:04] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi, hola, welcome to the community. For those who are more familiar, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:30] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science. let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode, which was the first part of my chat with Sarah Pegram. On LinkedIn, Dr. Sarah Cassidy said, Lovely stuff, Ross and Sarah. Very hard to be brave enough to be our authentic selves, isn't it?

[00:02:52] I think it's a universal struggle. And Sarah Cassidy went on to say, I definitely feel like a lot of what you are talking about here and going on the journeys of courage are probably way more common to so many people than we are even aware of.

[00:03:05] Wonderful work. Bravo for sharing with the rest of us. I absolutely echo Sarah Cassidy's words there. Sarah Pegram is so open, authentic, and vulnerable. She's a great role model for us all.

[00:03:18] Now, P Supers, you might have heard that the bookmarks have landed. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks. Dispatched by my dad in the Global Distribution Center in the Northeast Powerhouse. do you need to write a review?

[00:03:33] The first bookmarks are on their way. So please do keep reviewing, writing, sharing, and talking about the podcast. You will help more people find us and all that useful people soup stuff.

[00:03:43] My act in the workplace train the trainer program is rapidly approaching. At the end of April, if you'd like to bring evidence based training to the organizations you work with to support well being and psychological flexibility, then look no further.

[00:03:56] Details are in the show notes, including the discount [00:04:00] code. For now, Get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with the wonderful Sarah Rim.

[00:04:12] So Sarah, I'm going to say the title again because I want to get this right.

[00:04:16] Sarah: Yep.

[00:04:16] Ross: Your book is called Break the Binds of Weight Stigma, Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And what I'd love to do is start with my review.

[00:04:27] Sarah: Oh, I can feel the anxiety come in.

[00:04:30] Ross: And, but you see, but Sarah hasn't heard this review yet. let's crack on.

[00:04:34] This is a fascinating book. It blends evidence, including lived experience, Deep expertise from the author and the practical application of behavioral science to take the reader on a fascinating and thought provoking journey.

[00:04:48] Sarah has created a captivating book built around the metaphor of a forest. The dense forest is a powerful way to represent our body image and how we can get tangled up and snagged in the branches, trunks and foliage, which can impact how we show up in the world. As our skilled guide, Sarah helps us to illuminate our forest, guiding us through it and providing reflective exercises at each stage, increasing our understanding and supporting us to take practical action with each chapter. It finishes with an essential section, where she considers how we can support each other.

[00:05:23] particularly young people, and change the dialogue at the industry level, whether that's the diet industry, fashion, fitness, or social media. Bravo, Sarah. A comprehensive and thoughtful guide. Your expertise shines through every page. Thank you. I

[00:05:44] Sarah: so nice. So kind.

[00:05:46] Ross: It was truly revelatory for me. Getting me to think about that forest. I love the metaphor of the forest, in case you didn't realize. But getting me to think about how it's so pervasive as we grow up. [00:06:00] The references, the jibes, the little comments about bodies and weight. it's, it's truly astounding to have that all put down.

[00:06:10] At the beginning.

[00:06:11] Sarah: Yeah, it's um, I find it, and I find in working with other people, it can be quite eye opening. Like, we know there's a lot of conversation about body, but when you really break it down and go, let's look over the course of your life, all the different places. Where you may have received comments about appearance and body.

[00:06:33] And when you look at just how much there is, of course people have struggles with body image. Of course this stuff comes up. It's not that our bodies are broken or we're broken. When you look how all encompassing it is. It's hard not to have these struggles. And I find, you know, In looking at it in that way, it's a lot easier to turn towards those struggles in a compassionate way.

[00:06:58] And I know I found that, even in my own journeys, looking at my own body image, is when I stepped back and said, Hey, this is more of a product of the environment, the context that you live in. You're not broken, you're not bad, you're not being superficial, you're not being vain. You're not being shallow, this is the world you live in, of course you're going to have these struggles. And it helped me turn towards my experiences and helped me create change.

[00:07:27] Ross: Which you've certainly achieved. when did you realize that this was the book you were going to write?

[00:07:34] Sarah: Good question. I think I was wanting to write a book for a long time. I was a little bit burned in the dissertation writing process. just burnt out, but also along that pathway, I got told I'm not an academic writer. So that, my mind then translated that into, you're not a writer. And so I got in my own way for a bit.

[00:07:56] And I, I'll own that comment of, I'm not an academic writer, [00:08:00] that is not an academic book. I'm a storyteller. So I got out of my own way for that. But in terms of writing this book, I think the point where I'm like, this is, this is a book I want to write, was I'd been exposed to body image in the eating disorder world for a number of years.

[00:08:19] And I got a little bit too good at compartmentalizing, and I was having conversations with people outside of the eating disorder world, and this was more just with people I knew outside of work, and we stumbled on the topic of body image. And many of the people that I was talking to were talking about how they didn't do something or held back because of how they felt about their body. And I started getting curious about that. And the little researcher in me was like, I want to find out more about this. And I did like a little survey monkey thing, little survey and it came back that over 70 percent of people in that survey had held back or not done something because of how they felt about their body. And it was just shattering for me of like, this is not just a clinical thing. This is an everyone thing. And if, even if that percentage isn't as high as 70%. There's still a lot of people out there who aren't doing things or holding back because of how they feel about their body. And that's a loss to them, but also to the world around them.

[00:09:28] So I was really moved by just how big of an issue it was. And that was kind of the start of, I need to do something, I want to do something to help people so they don't feel like they have to hold back.

[00:09:42] Ross: I love it when you say, this isn't a clinical thing, it's an everyone thing. And I absolutely agree. Because I guess PSupers might be out there thinking, hang on, weight stigma, body image, what's this got to do with work? Well, it's got everything to do with [00:10:00] work. Let's try and give them a few examples. So, I would say, returning to work after the pandemic.

[00:10:07] I know a lot of people, bodies change shape. over the pandemic. Maybe they found their clothes no longer fitted. Going for a promotion, going for a new job in a new organization, where you have to be seen by a whole new group of people. I'm sure there are many more examples, but

[00:10:26] Sarah: Yeah, they're, they're really good examples that I did see. And I had a lot of conversations with people around the time of return to work from the pandemic of, you know, people saying like, I'm worried. of what's going to happen when I return to work. My body has changed. Are people going to comment? Are they going to notice?

[00:10:45] And then it would almost be like a beating themselves up of, I shouldn't be worried about that. So then kind of shutting it down, you know, but I was hoping like that the clinical space was a space that people could bring it and be like, I don't feel comfortable bringing it with my friends because I feel like I'm being, you know, superficial or shallow, but I want to bring it here because it is creating a lot of anxiety So it definitely came up in the pandemic times and returning to work. Other times when it might come up is if there's presentations or anything where having to be visible. Oh, I want to do the presentation or I trust my capacity in my, my skill and knowledge level. But the idea of getting up in front of other people and having other people see me and judge me and notice how I look, that brings up, you know, a lot of thoughts and feelings and people respond to those thoughts and feelings in a number of different ways.

[00:11:40] So some people might be like, I need to change my body. So once I change my body, once I lose a little bit of weight. Then I'll do that. Or they'll just, you know, go into more of the hiding of, I can't do that because

[00:11:56] Ross: yeah, great one of presentations. I [00:12:00] guess particularly if you feel the weight of representing your organization or your team. There's an extra layer there. It's, it's so powerful and appearing on video as well as in person, the differences, anxieties you might have about that. Gosh, it's, it is every area of life, but obviously I'm interested in the workplace.

[00:12:20] But as a little aside, I've been doing a fair bit of traveling for work and, I was feeling a bit creaky, my old bones were feeling a bit creaky, so I love cycling, so I do quite a bit of cycling, but I thought I want to get a bit more flexible so I joined a gym. And I noticed the anxiety coming up when I walk up the stairs to the gym when I'm on the way and thinking who's going to be there, which buff Spanish man is going to be there, flexing his muscles and lifting these enormous weights with barely a bead of sweat on him.

[00:12:51] And how am I going to look when I don't know how the machines work even? People will think, look at his pipe cleaner legs, things like that.

[00:13:00] Sarah: he doesn't belong here.

[00:13:01] Ross: Yeah, so I really recognize all the instances you say, but that's just one that's uppermost in my mind at the minute. I want to look after my, me, to go and deliver more training and support more adults in the workplace.

[00:13:16] And I noticed that showing up.

[00:13:19] Sarah: It's very, it pops up and so, and the gym is, is one place that a lot of people feel uncomfortable and a lot of people will say, I need to lose weight or I need to change my body even before I can feel comfortable going to the gym. So it's, that's even just this place like the gym. People are feeling like they have to change their body even just to get in there.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:43] Ross: Yeah. And it's when we're going back to the workplace, when we're going for an interview, we think about what we're going to wear. We'll maybe try on different outfits and feel a level of despair. I can't get that button fastened or is this the image I'm trying to convey? What are they going to think?

[00:13:59] Sarah: a lot of [00:14:00] people do that, you know, kind of like the fashion parade before they have, you know, the job interview of trying everything on to see what kind of fits the body and what doesn't fit the body, and then noticing any changes of, oh, that used to fit me but now it doesn't, and the spiral of thoughts that can come. from that. And usually it doesn't stay at the level of the body. It's not like, okay, well, that doesn't fit. It's okay. Move on to the next thing. For many people, it spirals deeper. You said you didn't lose weight and you didn't, you know, you're such a loser. You can't get things under control. You're failing.

[00:14:37] You're this, you're that. And it spirals into how a person might see themselves. So if you're going to a job interview and you've just had that spiral and go off. That makes it really, really hard to present yourself, you know, authentically and present your best self when there's a big part of you that's, your mind is just racing with all of these attacks pulling you down.

[00:15:02] Ross: Hmm. Absolutely, it's so relatable how you describe it. And the way you guide us through the book is through this metaphor of the forest, as I mentioned, and you help us navigate the forest for ourselves. I love the way you do it. I love the way you, you break it down into smaller steps just to help us so we're not overwhelmed.

[00:15:25] How did, how did you come up with that structure?

[00:15:28] Sarah: I think it's easy to get overwhelmed, so I think, to me, it was very important to come up with that structure and, you know, I've been overwhelmed, I've seen my clients get overwhelmed, so I knew it was important to break it into those piece by piece way because this is, it is a big thing for people, so it does need to be broken into smaller steps.

[00:15:53] So, from there I moved just to, okay, what are the key act processes? Which one would be the [00:16:00] next one that might flow for a person? And kind of went from there, and it might flow really well for some people, and other people might move from chapter to chapter, it might not, you know, flow exactly for them in that way.

[00:16:13] But I just wanted to give those bite sized pieces for them to, to work away at.

[00:16:19] Ross: And then, then you talk about navigating the forest for others. And this is, this is so important. It's what can we do in our workplace environment? How can we be with other people to make it an, an overused word, to make it an inclusive space?

[00:16:35] Sarah: Yeah, it's such an important piece. And it came from, uh, what I noticed in my clinic room is I'd do some really, you know, myself and my client would do some really, really good work, and they'd be really motivated and they're like, I'm going to step out of my comfort zone and I'm going to do this because it's in service of my values, and they'd be all pumped up and ready to go, and I'm like, okay, that was, that was great, and it's really, really amazing seeing people get to that point And so they'd leave my office, it's like, oh, okay, off you go.

[00:17:08] And then the following week they'd come back. And they'd be completely deflated. I'd be like, okay, what happened? And many times it was something external to them that reinforced those old body messages. So they tried to step outside of their comfort zone and didn't act in, you know, service of their values.

[00:17:31] And then something happens, some kind of weight based message, might have been a criticism, or teasing, or an ostracism happened, that just flattens it. So it made me think of, yeah, we can do some great stuff behind, you know, the therapy doors. And individually people can be reading these kinds of books and doing some great stuff. And the world around us. Thanks. Needs to [00:18:00] change, because otherwise we'll just keep encountering the same struggle over and over and over again. So the book speaks of not only creating change for ourselves, but also looking at what changes can we make in the world around us, so that other people don't have to, feel the way that we might be feeling. And when I look at my own journey and some of the things that we talked about, Being seen, and being seen for who I am, not how I look, and treated in that way, was powerful for me. So, thinking about how can we create that for other people. How can we, support people and connect at that more value based level of who they are, as opposed to how they look.

[00:18:46] Ross: I'm so pleased this was, this was a section in the book because I think it's so important to. to think what the steps that those around a person could take or to help them ask for support or to help them call out someone who's maybe making a passing remark that has a reference that that takes them back to a place where they were two weeks ago, and maybe It takes them right back into their comfort zone and disappearing.

[00:19:16] Any, any standout tips for someone in the workplace who wants to become more supportive or self aware?

[00:19:25] Sarah: In the workplaces, we spend so much time in the workplace. So it's really important that changes happens there. And one thing I have noticed in certain workplaces that I've been in is there's often a lot of weight based comments. So it might be, someone loses weight and everyone's celebrating that, or someone gains weight and there's kind of a, ooh, I've even been in workplaces where they've had like the biggest loser sort of contests happening.

[00:19:51] So which makes me just cringe. So even just at that level of, let's not have these conversations about weight. If we're going to [00:20:00] compliment someone, there's other things we can compliment them on as opposed to their body. each person that you're surrounded by are showing up, they're bringing themselves into, into work, so how can we connect with that So even stepping away from those kinds of weight based conversations can be really helpful. Or if you do see some weight based kind of conversations happening that could hurt someone, you know, standing up and speaking out against it. Or if it's not the place to do that, because sometimes it's not safe to do that.

[00:20:33] Even being able to go to the person who may have been hurt by it and let them know that you know you are there for them. Absolutely.

[00:20:40] Ross: That's a, that's a powerful one I think. Being a, being an ally. We often hear the word ally. In my experience, quite often spoken about the LGBTQ plus community. being an ally and people will proudly wear a rainbow lanyard for their building pass.

[00:20:58] And I think it's so pervasive, the, the comments and the, even what some people might call microaggressions around, around weight. those throwaway comments can be quite uncomfortable, quite distressing for people.

[00:21:14] Sarah: Like you don't have to have the comments being made directly to you in order for them to be uncomfortable. So if someone's making, you know, if you're sitting in the lunch room and someone's making a comment or complimenting someone on their weight loss. And then you look down at your own body, you're like, oh, yeah, I've actually gained weight recently. And they compliment, they're noticing and complimenting that. And all of a sudden you've snapped into being very body aware and body conscious. And that again, can trigger off kind of that, that whole line of thoughts and feelings can come up from that. And they just say, they seem like throwaway comments or, oh, I'm just paying a compliment.

[00:21:57] I'm just being nice. And even the person [00:22:00] who's receiving the nice, the compliment, it can sometimes not land how it's intended. So if you go up to someone and be like, Oh, you've lost weight. You look great. Well, what are you saying? you saying?

[00:22:12] that I didn't look great before? yeah. So it's the weight focus is uncomfortable and not helpful.

[00:22:20] Ross: I'd like to think the workplace has evolved a bit but I'm not sure it has.

[00:22:24] Sarah: I think some, some have, and some haven't. I think it depends on the workplace, on the industry.

[00:22:30] And there's so much more to people than their appearance and their weight. Like, there's so much more that could be happening in their lives. There's so much more to who they are as a person. And it's such a shame to reduce all of that down to their, their size.

[00:22:49] Ross: yeah. So, how are people responding to your approach? How are people responding to the book?

[00:22:55] Sarah: I've had a number of good responses. A lot of people say that. While the book speaks to weight and body, a lot of the things that are covered in it can be applied to other, other areas. So a lot of the tools, they can be transferred onto other things, and I'm like, that's exactly, what I was going for.

[00:23:16] A lot of people have said they have felt like I'm kind of peeked into their mind and can see exactly what they're thinking. So I you know, it's very relatable and, and that's what I was trying for. as far as the messaging and looking at this stuff, the main question I get from people is, what about health? And over the years, weight has been increasingly tied to health. And for some people that can be a point of like, justifying a comment that they might make. So they might make a comment on someone's body and be like, well, I'm just concerned about their health. Or even towards ourselves, we might make a body related comment, or I need to do something because it's about my health, and it gets [00:24:00] really, really closely tied to weight.

[00:24:03] And I think it's important to remember that weight and health can be two separate things. So you can do health related behaviours, you can experience really big shifts in your health, and notice those body changes. And it not necessarily change anything on the scale. So teasing apart weight and health.

[00:24:27] I'm, I'm definitely, I'm not against people improving their health if that's something that they value. And my concern is when weight and health get too closely tied together, it can create some problems.

[00:24:40] Ross: yeah, absolutely agree. And in the process of writing this book and your work in general, does stuff show up for you that could get in the way?

[00:24:51] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely. This, this book was, uh, quite a struggle at times and. For those reading the book, you will hear me in the book. I am bringing myself in the book, you know, I role model that vulnerability. And I think if I was just writing more of an academic style, I wouldn't have as much come up for me, but in putting myself in the book, those, you know, those not good enough thoughts and fears and worries of what are people going to think?

[00:25:23] Are they going to judge me? All of that come up. as I was writing the book and ever since it's kind of out into the wild, I guess those fears are there. They've, they've been there all along, and I've kept going because this matters to me. People, there's such a rich complexity to people, there's so much to people, and they've got so much to give, and it's such a shame that they're not able to give, or they hold back because of how they feel about it. So if I can [00:26:00] help people let go of that, that would We'll navigate it differently and I can help create change in the world. I want to do that. And if that means me being vulnerable, so be it.

[00:26:12] Ross: I think you being vulnerable is tremendously powerful, both in the way you're talking today and throughout the book. It shines through every, every section, every chapter. And your willingness to do that is impacting on other people. So thank you.

[00:26:30] Sarah: Thank you. That's, that's my hope is to, to impact others in a good way.

[00:26:35] Ross: And I guess as organizations we're missing out on people in, in the, in the organization. We're missing out on helping them fulfill their true potential and recognizing them for the, the skills and the experience and the perspectives that they have. So we need to wise up. Now you've already given us some marvelous insights and tips.

[00:26:56] Is there any. tip you'd leave the peace seepers with, any takeaway you'd leave with them, just to reflect on maybe.

[00:27:02] Sarah: Something to reflect on is the values piece of what is important to you and how you want to show up. Your body is going to change. So your body is your body, it's going to change over time as you get older. How do you want to show up, regardless of what's happening with your body? How do you want to show up?

[00:27:24] How do you want to be remembered? How do you want to make other people feel? And trying to connect more with that, as opposed to connecting with how you look. Oh, it's

[00:27:33] Ross: Pup is just popping up to repeat those last important words from Sarah. How do you want to show up? Regardless of what's happening with your body, how do you want to show up? How do you want to be remembered? How do you want to make other people feel? And trying to connect more with that, as opposed to connecting with how you look.

[00:27:50] And now, back to the chat. Love it. Yeah, how do you want to show up in different contexts in life? Not just work, not just [00:28:00] home life. It's not always easy and in my experience it's immensely freeing as well.

[00:28:07] Sarah: definitely not easy, that's, this is all, it's like, yep, this sounds, this sounds easy, but to actually do it, is another thing altogether.

[00:28:15] Ross: Yeah. So, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show and being your vulnerable self and role modeling for us all what is possible for us in life and the workplace.

[00:28:29] Really appreciate you coming on the show and congratulations again for the book.

[00:28:33] Sarah: Thanks for having me and thanks for listening, Peasoopers.

[00:28:36]

[00:28:40] Ross: That's it. Peace Supers the second part of my chat with Sarah in the bag. Thanks so much to Sarah for being an inspiration. Please do check out her brilliant book, break the Binds of White Stigma Now. Folks, we need your help. You could support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science.

[00:28:58] So.

[00:28:59] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:29:03] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:29:11] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:29:39] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:29:48] And scene.

[00:29:53] Sarah: Thank you.

[00:29:54] Ross: Oh, Sarah, that's phenomenal.

[00:29:57] Sarah: That just, yeah, that felt very natural and, uh,

[00:29:59] Ross: [00:30:00] Oh, good.

[00:30:00] Sarah: You're very good at what you do. Like listening, I'm always like listening to your voice. It makes me calm, but your, your style is spot on.

[00:30:10] Ross: Thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate that, Sarah.