PART ONE

[00:00:00] Hi there. The very warm, welcome decision. Five episode 16 of people soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Kevin: Yeah. And I think, a big part of, of the work that I believe in is talking about empowering workers, and giving them that voice to say, well, what are the issues that we're struggling with and what are solutions on the back of that? . And whether that's, like you said, through the unions, through employee representative groups, through occupational safety and health groups, I think that's quite powerful because it gives people that sense of going back to autonomy, belonging control, that they feel that they have some agency over what is going on, that they feel they have a voice, to express concern, to try and do something about it.

[00:00:41] Kevin: And that can be quite, powerful. Pete supers what a privilege it was to speak to Dr. Kevin Tio. He's a senior lecturer and the program director for the MSC in organizational psychology at Birkbeck university of London.

[00:00:54] He's also the executive officer for the European academy of occupational health psychology.

[00:01:00] In part one, we joked about Kevin's career and his early decision that he didn't want to work in organizational psychology. That is until a game-changing experience and our law firm.

[00:01:10] Kevin is truly dedicated to supporting people at work and his research publications reflect that, particularly his work, supporting those in healthcare.

[00:01:18] He's such a kind thoughtful, reflective and humble man. I'm a big fan of Kevin, his work and to stents of exploring the systems and organizations in which people operate. I know you're going to enjoy this conversation.

[00:01:30] People supers in award-winning podcast, where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often.

[00:01:48] Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode, which was me A short cup of soup, where I reflected on my recent projects and also an idea for a new bite-sized [00:02:00] podcast to support leaders with the working title of. Let's get quizzical. The people soup leadership workout.

[00:02:07] On Twitter, Lisa full kingdom said love the idea of the new podcast, Ross. Quizzical leaders are definitely needed in our current world, in the NHS. Look forward to April.

[00:02:18] And on Instagram, Sandra Murray said. I liked the idea of small bite-sized ideas to ponder and to practice. It's like a poem, small, but mighty packing a punch, the best of luck.

[00:02:29] Well, thank you so much to Lisa and Sandra and to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast with your help. We can reach more people with stuff that could be useful. But for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Kevin Tio. Dr. Kevin Teo, welcome to People Soup.

[00:02:54] Kevin: Well, thank you Ross. Thank you everybody. Um, it's a pleasure to be here.

[00:02:58] Ross: Well, I am delighted to have a legend of Burke back here with me in a virtual world,

[00:03:03] Kevin: Well, I wouldn't necessarily call myself a letter unless you're referring to yourself because you're quite popular at Birkbeck as well, Ross

[00:03:10] Ross: Oh, I see what you did there, mate. the short list for awards that prove you are a legend of Berk back. But thank you very much. sweet talker, you Now Kevin, you'll be familiar. I have a, a forensic research department to dig into your details and find out a bit more about you. So I'd like to start with just telling you what they've found out about you.

[00:03:32] Kevin: Certainly I'm, I'm quite intrigued, a bit nervous actually as well.

[00:03:35] Ross: Well, they don't always get everything right, so please keep your ears peeled in case they've made any bloopers. So it says here, Dr. Kevin Teo is a chartered psychologist and the program director of the MSC in organizational Psychology Birkbeck University of London. He is also the executive officer for the European Academy of Occupational Health Psychology. His primary research interests are around [00:04:00] developing healthier workplaces and the translation of research into practice policy and public dissemination. How are we doing so far?

[00:04:07] Kevin: think so far you've, you're pretty accurate. So well done. Research team.

[00:04:11] Ross: Cool. There's a, there's a lot of long words for me here, Kevin. Um, Kevin has collaborated extensively with the European Agency for Safety and Health at work and the Society of Occupational Medicine, and has a particular interest in the working conditions and wellbeing of healthcare workers.

[00:04:26] Ross: He has also worked with organizations in the private and public sectors. These projects have primarily been around workplace wellbeing, management, training, recruitment, and retention and safety. Kevin has published in journals such as Work and Stress and the Journal of Occupational Health Psychology and is a regular speaker at Academic, professional and Public Events, as well as podcasts.

[00:04:47] Ross: This ain't your first rodeo,

[00:04:49] Kevin: is not my first one, but I have to confess that I feel like I've peeked out. This is the one, um, that I actually listened to as well and for many years I've been sort of nudging Ross going. Hello, Ross . So here we are,

[00:05:05] Ross: And finally I responded. I've always been a bit slow on the uptake, Kevin,

[00:05:10] Kevin: Well, for me it's a great start to the year, so thank you, Ross.

[00:05:12] Ross: right? I've got down here a prolific researcher and I'm gonna try and share some titles just from last year

[00:05:19] Kevin: All right, go.

[00:05:20] Ross: and I have to say there are other co-authors in these papers, but I'm not gonna read all of them out. But you know who you are because if I read all the authors out, it might just make it a little bit long.

[00:05:30] Ross: But kudos to all of Kevin's colleagues and researchers on these papers. Let me just give you a sample, folks. Doctors perceived working conditions, psychological health and patient care, a meta-analysis of longitudinal studies. Here's another recommendations for improving the working conditions and cultures of distressed junior doctors recommendations to support the mental wellbeing of nurses and midwives in the United Kingdom.

[00:05:55] Ross: A DELPHY study. There's more relationship between working conditions [00:06:00] and psychological distress experienced by junior doctors in the UK during the COVID 19 pandemic across sectional survey study, and I'll go with one more. the impact of national legislation on psychosocial risks on organizational action plans, psychosocial working conditions, and employee work related stress in Europe. That's just a flavor. Pea supers of the extent of Kevin's research with his learner colleagues. I'm seeing a, a relationship with healthcare. I'm seeing a relationship with wellbeing and that's what we're gonna dive into particularly in the second part of this conversation. But there's a couple more things from my research department.

[00:06:40] Kevin: right. Done.

[00:06:41] Ross: You've won awards, man.

[00:06:43] Kevin: Yeah. Um, yeah, some, um,

[00:06:47] Ross: Look at, I'm hiding as a light under a bushel here. I'm gonna say just a sample of your awards. Highly cited paper. research. Excellent and shortlisted by the student union twice. Once for excellence in student experience and once for best lecturer, tutor. Now imagine those students. That's a fairly tough gig.

[00:07:08] Ross: So to get shortlisted for those awards is like pretty significant.

[00:07:13] Kevin: Yeah, I think it's something which I'm, I'm, I'm quite happy about. a, a big part of what I do is, is teaching and, and I actually enjoy the teaching that I do at, at Berk Beck. We talk about building communities, and, and we see our students as being an important part of that. And, and therefore what we want to do is create a community where everyone can, can thrive and can learn and can challenge each other.

[00:07:33] Kevin: And, I think to get an acknowledgement like that is very,

[00:07:37] Ross: Yeah. And, and you do do an excellent job at creating that community. I remember when I've done a couple of, uh, lectures at Eck and it is quite a warm and welcoming atmosphere and a curious group of folks who are really interested to hear what's going on and learn more. And also I think you and Alma really created that sense of that, [00:08:00] group, that belonging.

[00:08:01] Kevin: Yeah, I think, I think as a, as a community, as a department, we've always had that very strong identity. we, we go back, we were the first organizational psychology department in the uk so there's a bit of, bit of history there, but I think there's also a little bit of trying to practice what we preach.

[00:08:17] Kevin: and it's certainly. Not easy at all. There's all cliche about those who can't do teach, but I guess that's a challenge for us to say, well, we talk about things like wellbeing and psychological safety, and community. So how can we translate that into our own programs, into our own departments? and I think that's a testament to, to my colleagues and, and also to, to our students who are important.

[00:08:37] Kevin: Part of that.

[00:08:38] Ross: I think that's such an important point. Are you applying the principles of your research and your research interests? to reflect that back to the student experience and I think, wow, I've never thought of it like that. I think you do it really. Now the research department have picked up something else that not everyone might know, but it says here, Kevin runs a scout T troop. through Hampshire Scouts and my forensic research department have done a more digging on that. And they found out that you've been lobbying Gil Well Park to include three New Scout badges, which are autonomy, belonging and competence scout badges. And I think they would be legendary badges for our young people to, to work towards.

[00:09:21] Ross: How are you getting on with that?

[00:09:22] Scouts

[00:09:22] Kevin: Uh, well, alright. Maybe, maybe not formally lobbying, uh, for, for badges on autonomy, belonging, competence. But I think fundamentally, I think these are principles that we try and teach. our kids through, through the programs that, that we do. I think it's something that's important for individuals, whether we work as adults in organizations or as kids just trying to have a good time or trying to manage our relationships at home and in school and, and growing up.

[00:09:50] Kevin: but I think it's about creating that space where we allow people to have, autonomy, freedom to, we talk about having a youth led program that we talk to the kids and say, what do you guys want to [00:10:00] do, belonging. So again, we talk about creating safe spaces and particularly when you, our scouts are age 10 to 14, so, um, that's lots of exploration about, you know, who I am, where do I fit in, and, but what we want to do is have a space where they can say on a Tuesday evening, they can come here and know they're gonna be accepted for who they are for whatever that they're going through.

[00:10:21] Kevin: and then competence to challenge them, to push them, because to show them, look. You can achieve things, you can do things which maybe you didn't know what you didn't want to do. but maybe we think about reframing things and giving people that skill and opportunity to apply that. so yeah, having the ABC's autonomy, belonging, competence.

[00:10:37] Ross: Lovely. And were you a scout?

[00:10:39] Kevin: Yeah, I was, um, I was a scout, so I grew up in Malaysia. scouts was, was a big part of, of, of my childhood. I felt I got a lot out of it. I was a shy, quiet kid, I think. And I think it gave me a lot of, of confidence, going through that. yeah. But then when I left school, I, I stopped as, as often as the case.

[00:10:56] Kevin: later on I eventually came, came to the uk, went to university, worked, and then we moved to this town where I now live in North Hampshire. never heard of this town, um, baying Stoke. It's a lovely town. and we moved here because my wife got, got a job here, but. then I was thinking, how do I get involved in the community?

[00:11:15] Kevin: And there was this adverts going around saying that there's not enough adult volunteers. Do people want to get involved? So I thought, why not? No, I got a lot out of it as a kid. Um, I'm new to this place. What better way to get involved and get stuck in the community than to give up a few hours a week to work with some youngsters?

[00:11:30] Ross: Wonderful hats. Hats off to you.

[00:11:32] Kevin: Yeah. Or I'll certainly encourage, you know, whether anyone is looking to join the scouts or the guides or any voluntary organization. We talk about wellbeing in general. I think we get a lot out of giving to other people. And there's lots of ways, as lots of ways in which someone can give then. And volunteering is a, is a big part of that as, as well.

[00:11:49] Kevin: And, um, there are lots of voluntary organizations up and down the country who are looking for people to help. So please do.

[00:11:56] Ross: Yeah. Amen. And I think it's interesting because I think if we're, [00:12:00] we're giving our young people tools and skills to, to cope with the challenges they're going through, I think that will serve them well in life as they move forward. Cuz we know that loads of adults are distressed in the work.

[00:12:13] Kevin: Yeah. I, I think so. And I think the, if you talk about youngsters, you know, being a teenager, if we think back to our own periods, you know, there's lots of stuff that we went through. but I think the current environment is, is extremely difficult. we talk about the, the pressures that come with, with social media and the expectations, that are being placed on kids, and also coming out of, of the pandemic and, and the changes and the disruption that's had on home life and on on, on school life.

[00:12:41] Kevin: so I think. A lot that our youngsters are going through and, and any avenues that one can have to, to support that and create a safe space, I think should be, should be encouraged. Whether that is through former roots, like, like schools or, um, other more informal route, you know, scouts being won. But there are numerous other youth organizations or sports, settings which, which allow for that.

[00:13:05] Kevin: but I think it's something that we, we certainly have to consider.

[00:13:08] Ross: Now, Kevin, we've heard a little bit about you from, from my research department, but I wonder if you could expand on that. Just talk to us a bit about how you got to, where you've got to in your career and maybe some pivotal moments there

[00:13:21] Kevin: there's a lot to unpack. It's actually only the last, last week I got a reminder on LinkedIn that this is my 10 year anniversary at Breck. I can't believe I've been. had brick pack for, for that long. Yeah.

[00:13:34] Ross: did they give you a cake or something?

[00:13:36] Kevin: they give me a cake. I don't think anyone's noticed to be fair.

[00:13:40] Ross: Oh,

[00:13:41] Kevin: but let's, let's see. Any of my colleagues listening and if anyone else might pick up on the hint on, on

[00:13:46] Ross: Oh, there's a, there's a challenge, but back ins.

[00:13:49] Kevin: Yeah. but actually I always, I always reflect back and think that it's ironic that I'm working in the work in organizational space because I remember, so as I was exploring [00:14:00] what to do at university, I was looking at different things.

[00:14:03] Kevin: I considered doing medicine, I considered doing law. I considered studying theology as well. But Indiana, I went down to psychology route. cuz I was fundamentally just interested in people and I was quite curious, quite, a curious person. So psychology gave me a reason to ask questions, to explore, to try and understand, people.

[00:14:19] Not gonna do occupational or IO psych

[00:14:19] Kevin: But one of the things that I was quite sure about was that, , I wasn't gonna do occupational or, industrial organizational psychology because I wasn't really interested in the corporate world. it just wasn't something that, that, that I found fascinating. So whenever we had optional modules, it was never something that I picked up.

[00:14:35] Kevin: I always thought, I'm not gonna do io psych, industrial organizational psychology. So what's the point? and it was only my, in my last year as an undergraduate student, when I was in, in the uk the last summer, I, I sort of stumbled across an opportunity to go and work in a large law firm as a psychology intern.

[00:14:52] Kevin: I was at a graduate fair and talking to a, a senior partner in this, law firm, and he was looking for law graduates. So he talked to me and said, what are you studying as accepting psychology? Uh, he says, oh, alright, I'm looking for law interns. and I said, well, you might be surprised what psychology can do for you.

[00:15:07] Kevin: And he said, well, what can psychology do for me? And, and we ended up talking, and talked about, uh, wellbeing, in terms of recruitment, application of psychology in the workplace. yeah. And he became quite interested. He said, he gave me his card and said, email me. So I sent him an email.

[00:15:21] Kevin: A few weeks later, his PAs wrote back and said, well, do you want to come and spend your summer in this law firm? It's one of the largest law firms in Southeast Asia. and we went along. It was me and me and a coursemate of mine. And it was an interesting time and it challenged me in the sense that it actually reinforced that I don't think I set up for the corporate world.

[00:15:39] Kevin: that sort was at nine to five was more like nine to 10 in the evening, kind of working environment and conditions.

[00:15:45] How he found his way to org psych

[00:15:45] Kevin: But one of the things that really challenged me and I found fascinating was the ability to apply psychology in the workplace. I think that, that, that root from thinking about we've got a problem, what can we do about it?

[00:15:56] Kevin: Let's do something about it. And that being very dynamic was something that I found [00:16:00] fascinating. And when I was thinking more and more about it, I was like, actually, this is what occupational organizational psychology is, is about, is the application of it. And the more I thought about it, I realized that I didn't have to work in a big multinational company or in a big law firm.

[00:16:15] Kevin: I could apply and understand and study organizational psychology, from a, from a, from a different perspective, from different environment and, and, um, that there's lots of flexibility in, in being able to study individuals to support individuals. and, and that's kind of how I stumbled in, in organizational psychology.

[00:16:35] Kevin: parallel to that, there's also. , you know, instead of heading down the IO psychology route, which was the initial plan, as with many undergraduate psychologies, I think I was thinking I was gonna head towards clinical psychology. That was what I was, what I was interested in doing. And, and alongside that I was doing placements, in different mental health settings.

[00:16:52] Kevin: one in particular, I worked for quite a few months as a volunteer in a community mental health, center run by, by the mental health charity mine. It was very fulfilling. It was, it was really good. but one of the things that struck me was that actually it was so emotionally draining. And these were working with individuals who were basically trying to reintegrate back into society. And I thought if I was working in this environment and I was already feeling drained right now, how could I then train to be a clinical psychologist, and want to build a career in this? I would think I'm gonna burn out.

[00:17:24] Kevin: If I worked in, in this environment and, and then the more I thought about it as to, well, what, what could I best do? And also why were individuals getting unwell, perhaps, you know,

[00:17:34] How do we better support individuals?

[00:17:34] Kevin: how do we better support individuals? And from that perspective, that's again, something else which sort of drew me into the world of work.

[00:17:41] Kevin: We spent so much of our time in and around work that if we can actually create healthier working environments, we can support individuals, groups of people that hopefully fewer people reach the point where they may end up requiring, you know, specialist mental health support, tertiary level interventions, [00:18:00] basically to support individuals.

[00:18:01] Kevin: So it's almost a public health argument. And I think the combination of, of the two, being able to see the application of psychology in, in, in this case a, a law firm, how exciting that was. But also at the same time, seeing that actually I didn't really wanna work so much in terms of. having a reactive approach, but having a lot more of a proactive approach.

[00:18:20] Kevin: How can we create a better working environment for, for most people, for large groups of people, that would be a lot more beneficial for, for everyone. And that's how I then kind of ended up going on, to, to eventually do a master's in occupational psychology. I went to the University of Nottingham, had a, had a, had a really good time there.

[00:18:39] Kevin: and from there I got involved in a number of projects through the university. After I finished the msc, we worked with a European agency for safety and health at work, talking about policy at a European level. developing toolkits risk assessments for small medium organizations to assess, um, working conditions in, in the workplace.

[00:18:57] Kevin: we, we worked on projects trying to quantify the cost of stress and bullying in the workplace, which was also really, really fascinating. And then later on, Got involved some other projects, which took me to Burk as a research assistant. and when I was there, individuals while I was working, if I worked very closely with, professor Tom Cox and Dr.

[00:19:15] Kevin: Juliet Hassard were, you know, all, all quite instrumental in terms of shaping my, my, my thinking and, and my approach, I think in terms of how I, how I, how I look at things and, kind of said that, well, if you look like you're kind of maybe heading down a route into academia and, and, and maybe you want to consider doing a PhD.

[00:19:31] Kevin: And, and I wasn't quite sure. I, I sort of always knew that probably long run I'll end up doing a PhD and, I sort of did a whole lot of applications with different psychology firms, consultancies. some I got turned down for some I got quite far in. And actually when I came to reflecting Indian, I kind of kept thinking that, I, I enjoy consultancy, but I don't think I could do it.

[00:19:51] Kevin: Day in, day out in terms of, what my day job might, might be. and I think academia gives me that healthy, or for me, a, a, a [00:20:00] nice balance being able to, balance between the teaching side, the research side, but also giving me the freedom to involve myself in consultancy and the application of psychology into the workplace.

[00:20:10] Ross: It sounds like you're, you're kind of a bit of a flexible explorer there, I love the way that conversation with the, the lawyer guy where you. Set out your stand quite clearly and said, well, you might be surprised what psychology has to offer, the level of boldness there, that that really speaks to your passion.

[00:20:29] Ross: I think

[00:20:31] Kevin: And, and I think also with that, there was an element, because in the back of my mind. . I guess I wanted to be quite sure, to say, I've always said I'm not gonna do organizational psychology. but I, it's not fair for me to completely rule it out if I've not been willing to take an elective in it or to give it a try, you know, let's say through an internship.

[00:20:49] Kevin: So my rationale for taking this internship was saying, I'll do it. I can say, I've done it, didn't enjoy it, I can move on. But I did it and there were elements of it, which were absolutely brilliant, that I absolutely loved. And, and I did the three months and I thought, I've gotta do this again.

[00:21:05] Kevin: you know, how can I pick the best bits of this and, and build a career out of this? Um, and that's, I think, kind of where I've come from. And I think I've been quite fortunate that along the way I've been, you know, had the right opportunities, met the right people, um, who've supported me, me through that process really.

[00:21:21] Ross: I like the way also that you were maybe considering clinical, and I also went to explore that, and there's a great level of self-awareness here that you, you thought actually this experience I'm having there, it sounds like a, a work placement was quite draining and recognizing that you need to look after yourself as well if you're working in that clinical sphere and recognizing it wasn't for you.

[00:21:44] Kevin: Yeah, I, I, maybe perhaps that's the case, but I think if I, if I also reflect, I, I wonder one of the reasons why, possibly I, I do a lot of work with healthcare workers. So my PhD actually looked at, the working conditions of, of doctors in, in d nhs, uh, the impact on their [00:22:00] mental health, and then correspondingly the, the impact on, on patient care.

[00:22:04] Kevin: Um, and I think one of the, Maybe I'm, I wanna say drawn, but I do a lot of work with healthcare workers is I think because I, I may have ended up being a healthcare worker, you know, whether that's through a, a clinical psychologist, like I said, I've considered doing medicine for, for, for a while as well.

[00:22:20] Kevin: And I think there's also something to be said about helping these individuals who are essentially helping everyone else. So who's looking after the people who, who care for us. So I think that's the perspective that, that, that often I've, I've, I've taken,

[00:22:32] Ross: So you're, you're kind of working out where you can best add value to, to help the helpers or, or care for the carers.

[00:22:40] Kevin: pretty, pretty much,

[00:22:41] Ross: Wow. And are there any role models that you look up to, or you mentioned a couple of names there, but are there any people who've been really fundamental in helping you shape your career and find your.

[00:22:54] Kevin: I think along the way I've, I've been quite lucky to come across, quite a lot of people who, who've, who've taken an interest, who've, looked out for me, who've, given me opportunities. And I think that that has happened both in terms of, um, from a pastor role, I suppose.

[00:23:09] Kevin: And, and I've had, had had tutors, uh, along the way. I'll, I'll give a shout out. I mean, as this lows, I almost feel like giving shout outs is, is, wouldn't be appropriate in, in this context. professor Gail Kinmen, was one of my personal tutors when I was an undergraduate student at the University of, of Pet Fitzer.

[00:23:23] Kevin: and we've kind of come full circle because now she's a colleague of mine. and we, we often joke about that, but it's, it's wonderful that, you know, to be able to. have her as a, as a personal tutor and, and now she's a colleague and, we work on, on projects together. I, I always hold her in high esteem.

[00:23:38] Kevin: I wouldn't say she's a, a peer per se, but I, I feel that she does see me as a, someone who contributes something, maybe even as a peer. And I think that that speaks a lot about, about her. But there are, many others as well. You know, I'm gonna go name many people right now.

[00:23:51] Ross: Sure, sure. Thank you. Yeah, cuz if, if you start to, to share more names, there'll be one you miss out afterwards and you go, oh shucks,

[00:23:59] Kevin: [00:24:00] Yeah. I think that would be the, the danger we could have a whole session about influential people in, in my life, but I think maybe your, your listeners might, might not be as interested in that

[00:24:09] Ross: maybe that's a bonus episode. Like People Soup After Dark. Where, where Kevin talks about those who've influenced and helped him shape his career and now you are someone that other people look up to. You are a role model for others now.

[00:24:23] Kevin: I think it's, again, it's, it's, it's about passing it forward. you highlighted some of the papers that I've worked on, and I think the key thing to emphasize there is, is collaboration. I firmly believe in collaboration, a because there's only so much you can really do on, on your own.

[00:24:37] Kevin: But I think particularly when it comes to research, you need individuals to, to challenge your thinking. who will encourage you, who will support you, but also it's not possible to do everything on your own. So you need people who can compliment your skillsets, and whether that is collecting data, analyzing data, writing up papers, accessing organizations, managing the politics of the different stakeholders as well.

[00:25:00] Kevin: or just people that you can get onlo and and, and have a laugh. And, I think having those collaborators is, is, is really important. So, you know, in, in the same way, I get a lot out of that. I, I try and return the favor in, in being, you know, hopefully being someone that people want to work with and feeling that I can offer value and, and support to others.

[00:25:17] Kevin: And, similarly, as many people have, have looked out for me, throughout my career, you know, I try and, and, and do the same, whether it's with peers or with early career researchers or, or students. so I'm always open if people want to find out more about the field or more about, PhD studies or academic studies or even, other opportunities, consultancies as well, to connect people and, and to, um, offer some advice because, you know, whenever I've, I've asked people, people have always been very generous to do so.

[00:25:44] Kevin: but I think that also speaks a lot about the community that we are in. and I don't think I'm unique from, that perspective, there's so many other people who do exactly the same. and I think that's what makes our, our community, really special. And I think your p supers are part of that community as well.

[00:25:57] Ross: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think they'll be [00:26:00] delighted to hear that, that Kevin. Yeah, it's, gosh, it is like a community of interest and I find it to be a very generous and, respectful community. I mean, the first time we met was kind of through the world of act acceptance and commitment therapy.

[00:26:13] Ross: When it was, it was me and Paul Flaxie Babes doing a bit of training. But I think we probably met before that at probably one of the, the Berk back lectures that I came and gave.

[00:26:23] Kevin: Yeah, I think so. So I, if I remember correctly, we got you. In to do some sessions at broke back around, act. And it wasn't something that I was very familiar with, and I actually think maybe the first time or the second time after that I was like, I'm gonna sign up.

[00:26:35] Kevin: So I signed up and, and did the training session with you and, um, and flexi Babes, and that was a great week.

[00:26:42] Ross: and, and how do you, do you find, act? do you find it's included in any of your research or

[00:26:50] Ross: refer to?

[00:26:52] Kevin: it's something which is interesting because actually I think my perspectives as a psychologist has evolved over time. where it's, say it's strange as a psychologist to say this, but I've become less interested in the individual and more interested in the system and the organization in which that, individual is, is situated within.

[00:27:13] Kevin: there are things that we can do with an individual, but we are the products of our environment, and if we are talking about having healthier individuals, then we need to be talking about having healthier working environments and, and healthier societies as well. So maybe they've always been a bit of a, a clash from, from that perspective.

[00:27:32] Kevin: however, having said that, I, I have thought actually quite a bit about this and I think enters my, my, my world through a, through a couple of ways. One is when. , it, it's very easy to say change your working environments, you know, create healthier working environments, but sometimes as an individual, there's, there's only so much that you can do apart from finding a new job.

[00:27:53] Kevin: And even that's a privilege that's not available to everyone. So principles of ACT do come in when, when, um, [00:28:00] working in terms of on a more one-to-one basis to say, look, here are some skills that you can take on board, in which, you know, how you notice and how you relate with the world around you that, that you can use to better cope with, with, with whatever is that, that you might be going through.

[00:28:14] Kevin: But having said that, I think there's also principles of act, which maybe not explicitly, but implicitly tie in with some of the approaches that we take when we work with organizations or when we work with teams. Because really when we talk about creating healthier or better working environments, what we are, what we're talking about is saying actually, Before we even start to do anything, what is it that we are struggling with as a team or as an organization?

[00:28:38] Kevin: What, what is our problem? You know, we might be talking about high sickness absence, we might be talking about high burnout rates. We might be talking about, higher error rates in, in the workplace that might be manifestation of it, but what actually is going on? What are we doing? And as a team, as an organization, we need to reflect on that.

[00:28:53] Kevin: And I think that that links in very, very nicely with the pillar on, on noticing. So that we need to notice what we're doing and then we need to be purposeful in terms of how we react and how we respond to that. Because the danger is that as a team, as a department, as an organization, we react or we do something for the sake of doing it, or we react in a way just because everyone else is doing it, when actually that reaction is not appropriate because we've not taken the time to stop and say, what actually is the problem?

[00:29:21] Kevin: What actually are we struggling with? And what is appropriate for this context?

[00:29:25] Ross: Wow. It's, it's fascinating to hear you talk. I'm so chuffed and I having this chance to chat because you're absolutely right. Sometimes when I talk to organizations, they say, um, I can come and support people in cultivating these skills that we know can support their wellbeing, but it ain't gonna change a toxic environment.

[00:29:44] Ross: So how can we, work to, to gather people's views and give them a voice as well alongside the training. and maybe for another conversation it's looking at how we can ramp up, act to apply to the, the team level and the organizational level. Cuz[00:30:00] there's a related approach called pro-social, which builds on evolutionary approaches and contextual behavioral science to create collaboration and cooperation within teams, which I think goes to address that large environment.

[00:30:14] Ross: But there's also Annie, Annie Gask, friend of mine who looked at how you can ramp up psychological flexibility to create organizational flexibility. And I think that's, that's a really interesting way forward. But

[00:30:26] The SOUP

[00:30:26] Ross: I think you're absolutely right. It's the, the soup in which people are operating. If you are, if you are just working with them to cultivate skills and they're still in that same soup, it's gonna take a, a more coherent. Intervention to really address the, the organizational issues, I

[00:30:44] Ross: think.

[00:30:45] Kevin: and, and actually we in, in, in the work that some of the things that I'm interested in is actually even taking it to higher levels. So you talk about the soup, I might even take it one step further and say, well, what's the pot that is your soup sitting in? And what's the heat source that is heating your, pot as well?

[00:31:00] Kevin: Because all of those things also matter as well. , of course we might be limited in terms of, of what we are able to do about that, but it doesn't mean that we have to be helpless. But it also doesn't mean that we, we shouldn't challenge whatever the status quo might be. And in a way, I think the, the current wider context that's happening here in the UK with lots of organizations, unions, groups of workers questioning our working conditions, our pay, going on strike, I think is a reflection of people saying, hang on, let's talk not just about the soup, but all of the other things in the wide environment that we should also consider.

[00:31:37] Ross: it's really resonating with me. A, a more recent guest, Gabriela Brown applies psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to organizations and. I'll not reflect this as eloquently as she did, but she was talking about how the issues going on in society, things like the climate catastrophe, the energy [00:32:00] crisis, various political events, a war in Ukraine coming out of Covid, Brexit.

[00:32:05] Ross: All of these things accumulate and are mirrored in the organization that's like the, the heat source almost under it that causes all that turbulence in organizations.

[00:32:17] Kevin: Yeah. And, and I think it's, it's acknowledging that and thinking about how we respond to it. I think there's a danger also that we, we don't become helpless because sometimes, you know, an individual or a, or a group or a team might say, well, there's no point in doing anything because we can't change anything as well.

[00:32:33] Kevin: But that's, that's not true because I do think that across the different layers, there's stuff that can be. . there is a nice, neat model which was put together by, my colleague, Joe Yer and, um, Karina Nelson at, at Sheffield. the Igloo model, and if anyone's not familiar with it, basically stands or, or an igloo, you've got layers, but individual, the group, the leader, the organization, and then the omnibus context, which is the wider context and saying that Look all across all of these layers, everything affects us.

[00:33:03] Kevin: And that's things, whether it's, I mean, originally the, the, the original paper was about return to work after sickness absence, but it's been applied to, to all sorts of, other workplace issues as well. But there's things that can be done with the individual. There's things that can be done with the group, with the leaders, with the organizations and beyond.

[00:33:19] Kevin: and we have to identify what those issues are. And, and by identifying what those issues are, it might give us the impetus, the awareness to try and challenge that. and if there are things that we can't change with the group, maybe there are things that we can change with an individual or with the organization, or beyond.

[00:33:34] Kevin: Or if we can't change the political scenarios, then what we can do is actually focus on changing the group or the leaders or the individual.

[00:33:42] Ross: I hadn't come across that Igloo model, so I'm gonna look it up. I'll put it in the, the show

[00:33:47] Kevin: Yep. I can send you a couple things about that.

[00:33:49] Ross: Yeah, that would be great. Thank you. thinking about your, your career and working in academia, I'm very much on the periphery of academia working with Paul

[00:33:58] Kevin: Flexi

[00:33:59] Kevin: [00:34:00] Babes,

[00:34:00] Ross: flexi babes. I should trademark that. Really. but I do see a lot of pressure and expectation on academics. Do you notice that just broadly in the, in the sphere of academia?

[00:34:14] Kevin: yeah, I, I think, I think so, academia has, has changed and evolved, a lot. Not necessarily for, for the better. you know, there are elements of it which are, which are fantastic. traditionally most academics, I've gotta caveat that most sort of permanent research based, academics probably operate on a, contract, which is something like a third research, a third teaching a third admin or, or various ways that you might wanna, you might wanna break that up.

[00:34:39] Kevin: And, and that's quite, great because you've got lots of autonomy to kind of do what, do what you. , whether that's pursuing research projects, pursuing things in say, a bit more applied with consultancy and then being involved in teaching. And if you are teaching something that you're passionate and, and that you enjoy, then, then that's a wonderful experience to, be going through.

[00:34:58] Kevin: And, I think, you know, again, we've got flexibility over collaborators that meanwhile wanna work with speakers or, or other individuals or groups of people that you want to bring in to speak to your students or to, uh, speak to colleagues. So, so that's, you know, that's, that's some of the great things around, um, high education and just being around lots of people who are very interested in a topic who, who think similarly but also differently, who challenge you to be better, to be different.

[00:35:22] Kevin: And challenge you to, to think about, well, why do you know what you know, and why is that important? so I think that is, that's a fantastic place to, to be in. but the backdrop of that is, Also very, very different because we talk about, increased pressure to, to get funding, increased pressure to, to publish how education is also changing, where, lots of universities are, are going through the centralization of professional services.

[00:35:46] Kevin: So actually we we're being bogged down a lot more with things like admin duties. perhaps we weren't doing as much of, as before. with the pandemic and everything on, on the back of that, you know, we've got, um, to not only be subject [00:36:00] matter experts and teaching and research, but now having to be able to manage, technology on campus, online, facilitating online groups, facilitating hybrid sessions.

[00:36:10] Kevin: and also I think in the same way that, people are very used to high quality content. you know, TikTok videos, podcasts, such as, such as, uh, you know, this fantastic one called People Soup, where, people then hold the same expectations and, and, um, have an expectation that all academics, because we are involved in production content, therefore should have expertise in producing all of that, when actually that requires a completely different skill set.

[00:36:35] Kevin: so you have, you have additional pressures that come in from, from that perspective. and that's then not even talking about the increasingly fewer, full-time permanent positions that, that exist in, in universities than the increased casualization of our labor and cuts to pensions. I could go on talking about this

[00:36:55] Ross: Yeah. And, I think it needs more of a voice. I think there are many, employees in the UK who are more finding that voice through. maybe through their unions and through, through taking action. And I think it reaches a tipping point where people reach a point where kind of, it can't go on.

[00:37:11] Kevin: Yeah. And I think, a big part of, of the work that I believe in is talking about empowering workers, and giving them that voice to say, well, what are the issues that we're struggling with and what are solutions on the back of that? . And whether that's, like you said, through the unions, through employee representative groups, through occupational safety and health groups, I think that's quite powerful because it gives people that sense of going back to autonomy, belonging control, that they feel that they have some agency over what is going on, that they feel they have a voice, to express concern, to try and do something about it.

[00:37:46] Kevin: And that can be quite, powerful.

[00:37:48] Ross: Yeah, it's, it's feeling like we matter in the workplace. Wonderful. We're gonna come back to that in a moment, but I just wanted to ask a question which is your song choice. It's questionnaire as all my guests, and if you [00:38:00] had a song that would announce your arrival in a room not forever, maybe just for the next few weeks, whether it's a virtual room or whether it's you entering Eck, what would that song be for the next few weeks?

[00:38:11] Ross: Kevin?

[00:38:11] Kevin: I think about this a lot because if you talk to my students, I very much embed music in, in the work that I do. So when students come into the lecture hall, there will be a musical choice that that fits in with that. Well try to fit in with that week's content. But, uh, music is a big part of, of what I do.

[00:38:27] Kevin: But in terms of your question, if I had to pick one, I'll, I'll go with, um, Avicii the Knights. and yeah, I, I think it's one. Are you familiar with the song?

[00:38:38] Ross: I don't think I am Kevin.

[00:38:40] Kevin: All right, well, that's, that's a bit of homework. A bit of a bit of homework for you. but basically it's essentially an individual reflecting a little bit on, a conversation that he has with, with, with his father and, and talking about, you know, being a child, growing up.

[00:38:55] Kevin: but also at the end of the day, well, basically one the main lines over here is that, that one day we'll leave this world behind. So, so live the life that you will remember. and because it's these nights and these memories that, that will basically never die. And I think it's quite powerful for that perspective.

[00:39:09] Kevin: A gonna really catchy B, so you, you're always gonna want to dance and, and, and move to it. yeah. But, but it's about basically creating, creating memories and creating experiences. And I think so often we get bogged down with the day to day that we just kind of go. Uh, and we go with the flow, but we don't actually think, well, what is it actually I want to do when I think back, to my life, when I think back to five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, what, what would I have want to have done in this period?

[00:39:34] Kevin: And I think just basically to be a lot more purposeful, to be a lot more mindful. and I think those, lines, resonate with, with me. and on top of that, because I, I, well, I have a three year old now, so, uh, I've always enjoyed this song, but ever since I became a dad and I love being a dad, it is just taken a, a different layer because this is basically advice which a dad gives his son.

[00:39:56] Kevin: So I, I also think about, well, what kind of experiences do I want my son to [00:40:00] have, and what kind of examples do I want to set for him? And what messages do I have for him? And I think this is quite a, yeah. Well, I think this song hits the nail on many marks.

[00:40:09] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you. And I will, by the magic of audio, I will play a little snippet of that in the background.

[00:40:15] Kevin: Yeah. I know in previous episodes you've, you've, you've sung along, but now I can't get you to sing along because you haven't heard this song before

[00:40:21] Ross: do you know what I think? I think I

[00:40:24] Kevin: I'm sure if you hear it, you'll you'll recognize it.

[00:40:26] Ross: I'm being, I think I'm being a bit dense because when you said the lyrics, I

[00:40:30] Ross: was like, oh, I know those lyrics

[00:40:32] Kevin: Yeah. He says one day you leave this world behind, so live alive, you wave.

[00:40:38] Ross: you'll

[00:40:39] Kevin: my father told me when I was just a child, he are die , and then the beat drops

[00:40:48] Ross: do know it. And then the beat drops. Get

[00:40:52] Kevin: Yeah, it is. Unfortunately, this is an audio podcast because you won't see our hands waving in the background as we go.

[00:40:58] Ross: You won't see me and our Kevin. Cutting shapes here. P supers.

[00:41:03] Ross: Brilliant. That's it part one in the bag. Thanks so much to Kevin for being a wonderful human and doing such important work. We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:41:25] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:41:44] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at [00:42:00] People dot Soup.

[00:42:00] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:42:14] Kevin: Yeah. He says one day you leave this world behind, so live alive, you wave.

[00:42:20] Ross: you'll

[00:42:22] Kevin: my father told me when I was just a child, he are die , and then the beat drops

[00:42:30] Ross: do know it. And then the beat drops. Get

[00:42:35] Kevin: Yeah, it is. Unfortunately, this is an audio podcast because you won't see our hands waving in the background as we go.