Speaker: 00:00:00

First he went to the Schuylkill,

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Then he went to the Susquehanna.

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And then their people went to the Ohio.

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Every time the whites came

right after him, took their land.

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And only when the Indians finally realized

there was no way out of this,

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they were going to have

nothing is when they attacked.

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And that's when the Mennonites

tell the story.

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When the attacks start.

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So, John Ruth,

you've spent quite a number of years

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researching Anabaptist history,

and you just published another book.

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Well you've published

quite a few books over the years.

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There's a new one, relatively new,

that came out called This Very Ground.

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And it tells a side of the Mennonite story

that I have never heard before.

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And I think is maybe, you know,

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part of our story that's not not as good.

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And something

that we haven't heard about that much.

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And I really want to get into that today.

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So I'm guessing it'll be

a bit of a surprise to some people.

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So first off, thank you

for coming on the podcast this evening.

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And why don't we start

with just an overview of

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what what is the book about

and what did you find in your research?

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Well, I began,

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asking the question of why

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I lived where I lived.

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In a beautiful spot along a creek named,

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a branch of the Perkiomen Creek

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in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania,

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29 miles north of Philadelphia.

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And I realized that,

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when I was little,

I like to play at being Indian.

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I had a bow and arrow,

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and I heard about the Indians,

and I found that some of my friends went

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through phases where they enjoyed

imagining themselves as Indians to.

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But it hit me wrong.

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I was with a conservative Mennonite bishop

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in Lancaster County

when I was writing their history.

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Oh, 20 years ago, maybe,

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and he pointed to a field of corn

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where the corn stalks

were so close together

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and thick that you could only harvest

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in low gear with good equipment.

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He pointed toward that field.

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And I don't know why he said this,

but he said to me, look at that.

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He said, God got no glory

when just the Indians were here.

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And, So God could

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wait all those thousands of years

until we got here.

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And I remembered at harvest services

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a day, we would always quote that verse,

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from the Psalms

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that the Lord has given us...

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I just forget the, the

the word lap, of, of,

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luxuriant,

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herbage and fields

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and, then I thought, well,

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who were those people?

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Because on the farm next to ours.

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They picked up

hundreds of beautifully shaped points.

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Somebody had to get very good.

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And I had a neighbor who found

600 of those points in one field.

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like arrowheads. You're saying.

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Oh we call them arrowheads, so.

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And they were, there were,

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the tools that you could hoe and,

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the more I thought about that

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was.., And Columbus’,

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500th anniversary of Columbus's

landing in the Azores came.

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I thought,

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you know,

we as Mennonites lived on this land.

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We ought to say something. At 500 years.

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You shouldn't let that go past

without saying anything. So,

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I thought, well,

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I wound up in Oklahoma,

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where our Indians got to eventually,

and I just walk out on the street

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and ask somebody, could you give me some,

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take me to somebody that, this is about,

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I don't know, 2000 or something

like the year 2000.

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What would I have been?

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70 years old already, and.

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And they led me, led me to, a couple,

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a Lenape, couple.

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The Lenapes were the, indigenous

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people who lived in Pennsylvania,

new Jersey, Delaware.

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They're called Delawares,

but that's an European name

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because they had a group there.

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The Delawares are the same as the Lenapes.

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Well, well, anyway,

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we brought this couple up for October

12th, 1992,

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which is the 500th anniversary.

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And, we,

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took them to several churches

and had them talk about themselves.

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And, I took them to a place

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where they were still finding

Jasper points.

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And, then we went to a big celebration

in the National Cathedral in Washington,

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where the sound of powerful drums,

they celebrate

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Columbus Day. And,

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the more I talked, well,

what had happened to then

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a group of Lenapes

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took a walk on the so called,

walking purchase.

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I don't know if you ever heard

that term of 1737,

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when the last of our Lenape Indians gave

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gave up their land.

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So, 1737 you said.

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1737 and they were markers

along the path of that walking purchase.

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And when we

when we got to one of the group

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I was with of Indians or interested

people became angry

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and began

shaking their rattles and spitting

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and yelling.

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And I said to myself,

what's that feeling coming from?

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What's that about?

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It's not over in their minds,

the loss of their land.

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And, then I kept thinking

and thinking and thinking.

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And it drove me then finally

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to go into Philadelphia, to the

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Historical Society of Pennsylvania

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and pull out actual documents

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and just sit there and read them now.

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I'm a late comer to this.

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Honestly, I'm not a historian.

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And there for 50 years

had been a growing accumulation

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of scholarly work on indigenous people.

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We are in a peak of,

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profuse publication of scholarship

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on the indigenous people

and what they actually said

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and where they actually live,

and what process

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was proceeded through

by which they were de

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legalized

from the land that they had lived on.

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It's very from much fermenting now.

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There's all kinds of societies, all kinds

of people are interested in this.

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I'm a late comer and a non-expert.

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All I ask was the land that I live on.

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What was it’s story?

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Why am I living here?

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Fishing, swimming, skating, boating,

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trapping, farming, eating.

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Born.

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My mom ate the eggs and the dandelion

and the chicken.

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And I was born. Formed in her womb.

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And, I have this.

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Why don't

I go to think about earlier stages?

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Why am I so preoccupied with my decade

that I.

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That is a blank in my mind.

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I felt starved.

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So, anyway, I found that I was just a late

comer and a just an amateur

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where professionals had been working,

even at a university level for years.

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And so I drew on their scholarship,

in addition

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to going down to the Historical Society

of Pennsylvania and reading through

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the legal records, there.

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And what I wanted to know was,

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what was

it like for those people to leave?

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When did they leave? Where did they go?

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And, what was their experience?

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Now there in what we call

Indian, Oklahoma was Indian Territory.

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That's where you went when you couldn't go

any further.

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When you were you couldn't stay in Ohio.

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You couldn't stay in Illinois.

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You couldn't stay in Missouri, Kansas.

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You had to go Indian Territory.

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And there you were.

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Well, I made contact with them

because there was a Mennonite,

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a minister who was also a,

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a Navajo, not Navajo.

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I forget Cheyenne, Lawrence Hart.

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And he had a big to do in the year 2006.

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In which he, invited people

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to listen to their story,

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where our General Custer,

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who came from Mennonite background,

where I live.

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Wait, General Custer, came from Mennonite

background.

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Yes, his ancestry was Mennonite, and

he himself could speak Pennsylvania Dutch.

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Wait, I've never heard that. No.

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Can we divert a little bit

and hear a bit of that?

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Like what?

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How close was he connected

to the Mennonites?

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Well, he wasn't connected anymore,

you know, like, you can have Mennonite

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ancestry five generations ago

and have no memory of it yourself.

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It was probably closer than that for him,

wasn’t it?

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About four, I'd say.

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Yeah, but anyway, he

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he led the attack there

that killed Black Kettle.

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Who was the predecessor of Lawrence Hart.

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And anyway, as I

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put these, factoids together,

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I began to have feelings about it.

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And so it fueled my curiosity.

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Can we know anything?

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And I found it. Sure you can.

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Scholars had been right,

but my story wasn't told.

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So here's what I found.

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So here's what I found.

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That when the people

that settled my acreage.

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The Clemens's living from the Palatinate,

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who came over in the years 1709,

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and on that boat

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was a letter, a small letter

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by William Penn,

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who was an old disappointed man,

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but who had known Mennonites

over the years.

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Really? Yes he had.

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I didn't know that either.

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No, we don't we don't get that story.

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He had known Mennonites since 17.

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And in fact, he probably had

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Mennonite relatives

in, in and in southern Germany.

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But with that, that aside, he had visited

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Mennonites and worship with them in 17,

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in 1677, in the Palatinate. Yes.

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He knew Mennonites in Germantown.

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He knew Mennonites in Heidelberg,

he knew Mennonites in Amsterdam,

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the sophisticated Dutch, the

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in hob nail boots

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on the farms of the homes

in the Palatinate. Who?

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The Swiss refugees.

They came. He knew him.

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And in this letter,

which was not in the three

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volume sophisticated,

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collection of his correspondence,

I found it otherwise,

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and I found the original in the archives

in Philadelphia his letter

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he wrote, He wrote to his,

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his secretary in Philadelphia

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“Herewith come the Palatines,

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diverse Mennonists”

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that diverse.

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He already knew we were different kinds

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Oh, yeah.

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You see, from 1663,

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when the first Mennonites came

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to Germantown, to 1708,

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they could not have communion

because they came from

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five different places over there.

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They weren’t united. So the first

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adjective that

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William Penn used to tell his American,

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his secretary about Mennonite was diverse,

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but the rest was complimentary.

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He said they are a sober people

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and who will neither fight nor swear.

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Treat them with tenderness and love

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so that they will send over

a good character.

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He wanted more of us,

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undocumented.

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All he knew was we were Mennonites and I.

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When when I hear them talking about

immigrants today, how terrible they are,

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they're all rapists and stuff like that,

and a fear of them.

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My people couldn't

even talk English either.

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And they had lost their properties

at home.

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That's why they had to travel up

to the Palatinate.

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Well, anyway,

when I saw that William Penn on that boat

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was the couple that settled

the ground that I grew out of.

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They got 690 acres.

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I grew out of that.

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And that that still that formed me.

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That DNA is still there.

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And only by curiously pushing

and pushing to get to that story.

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Well, I got there and,

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I read afterward,

read the work of sophisticated historians,

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and I was shocked at how little

I knew that they already knew,

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but I didn't know my own story.

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Yeah.

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So anyway, the that's what pushed me. Now,

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When I had to do that,

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I said, I got to learn

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where Gerhart Clemens came from.

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And I have to know,

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I found out that his father in law,

264

00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:43,132

Hans Stoffer, was born in Switzerland

265

00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:48,304

in the same year

that William Penn was born in London.

266

00:14:48,929 --> 00:14:52,975

And so I've got a narrative,

a twin narrative.

267

00:14:53,517 --> 00:14:57,146

Let's follow Penn, and let's follow

Gerhart Clement.

268

00:14:57,354 --> 00:14:59,648

But let's put an Indian right beside him.

269

00:14:59,648 --> 00:15:02,985

What were they experiencing

when my people were rejoicing

270

00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:07,197

in the new acreage and in the woods,

and the peace and the freedom?

271

00:15:07,323 --> 00:15:09,742

What were the Indians doing right then?

272

00:15:09,742 --> 00:15:11,744

And make two chronologies.

273

00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:13,245

That's my story.

274

00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:15,414

Two chronologies side by side.

275

00:15:15,414 --> 00:15:19,793

As the Indians lose more and more, the

Mennonites sink their roots more and more.

276

00:15:20,544 --> 00:15:22,421

And then, thank God.

277

00:15:22,421 --> 00:15:25,424

“Where nothing dwelt but beasts of prey.

278

00:15:25,633 --> 00:15:26,675

Men as wild

279

00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:29,428

as they.

280

00:15:29,428 --> 00:15:32,306

God plants his people

there and builds them

281

00:15:32,306 --> 00:15:35,559

towns and cities there.”

That's what Isaac Watts wrote.

282

00:15:36,894 --> 00:15:37,811

Really?

283

00:15:37,811 --> 00:15:39,688

I've never heard that before either.

284

00:15:39,688 --> 00:15:44,068

no, I wrote my thesis on hymnody,

and that's how I got that.

285

00:15:46,403 --> 00:15:48,739

But and so what I did was

286

00:15:48,739 --> 00:15:52,701

I went back to 1644 when Hans Stoffer,

287

00:15:53,369 --> 00:15:58,332

whose daughter came to and came

to, bought the land where I live,

288

00:15:58,999 --> 00:16:02,628

Hans Stoffer was born

and where when William Penn was born.

289

00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:06,256

And I take their stories

side by side, side by side,

290

00:16:06,674 --> 00:16:09,385

no matter how difficult or abstruse

it gets.

291

00:16:09,385 --> 00:16:13,639

I say, what happened that year

or that year or that decade and,

292

00:16:14,181 --> 00:16:15,557

I follow that.

293

00:16:15,557 --> 00:16:18,560

And when I get to the end of it.

294

00:16:18,602 --> 00:16:20,062

I have a different view of,

295

00:16:21,772 --> 00:16:22,231

in other

296

00:16:22,231 --> 00:16:25,234

words, so God doesn't care

for the Jebusites, huh?

297

00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:28,404

Doesn't care for the people

298

00:16:28,404 --> 00:16:31,490

that Israel has chases off of Zion.

299

00:16:31,907 --> 00:16:34,618

And now we sit there and sing Sunday

after Sunday

300

00:16:34,618 --> 00:16:38,622

we’re marching to Zion

and, that our songs about...

301

00:16:38,664 --> 00:16:41,667

and they're still mourning

the loss of their land in Oklahoma.

302

00:16:43,335 --> 00:16:45,796

And I had to rethink I don't care,

303

00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:49,299

I don't care if it's radical

or conservative what it is, I don't care.

304

00:16:49,883 --> 00:16:52,636

Just know the story and relate to people.

305

00:16:52,636 --> 00:16:56,223

So when I had to move like, last month

306

00:16:56,849 --> 00:16:59,852

into a retirement home off of that land,

307

00:17:00,102 --> 00:17:04,189

the last person to be with me

as we walked down to the creek

308

00:17:04,189 --> 00:17:08,444

and sat there for and talked was a Lenape

309

00:17:08,444 --> 00:17:11,613

Indian from Brattleboro, from from

310

00:17:13,073 --> 00:17:14,450

Bartlesville.

311

00:17:14,450 --> 00:17:16,410

Yeah, yeah.

312

00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:19,288

But anyway,

313

00:17:19,288 --> 00:17:21,707

in, in in this in,

314

00:17:21,707 --> 00:17:25,085

in taking that naive narrative instead of.

315

00:17:27,963 --> 00:17:30,966

A history of ideas or whatever,

316

00:17:31,216 --> 00:17:34,219

a macro culture and taking my parochial,

317

00:17:35,304 --> 00:17:38,057

little local narrative

318

00:17:38,057 --> 00:17:41,060

and following it,

just like an Amishman would,

319

00:17:42,227 --> 00:17:43,228

and following it.

320

00:17:43,228 --> 00:17:44,980

And what will it tell me?

321

00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:47,357

That's my book.

322

00:17:47,357 --> 00:17:48,025

What will.

323

00:17:48,025 --> 00:17:52,613

And what it tells me

is that when William Penn came

324

00:17:52,613 --> 00:17:57,951

the first time to Pennsylvania,

he came in 1682.

325

00:17:58,202 --> 00:18:00,829

He got the land in 1681.

326

00:18:00,829 --> 00:18:03,248

And you know why he got it?

327

00:18:03,248 --> 00:18:07,086

Because the king owed his family a debt.

328

00:18:07,086 --> 00:18:09,922

And you know what that debt was for

329

00:18:09,922 --> 00:18:12,925

a great military victory

330

00:18:13,217 --> 00:18:15,135

between England and Holland.

331

00:18:15,135 --> 00:18:17,346

The Battle of Lowestoft.

332

00:18:17,346 --> 00:18:19,056

But anyhow. Interesting.

333

00:18:19,056 --> 00:18:22,059

So that money it and William Penn

334

00:18:22,518 --> 00:18:26,355

when the Quakers were so persecuted

in England, William Penn's

335

00:18:26,563 --> 00:18:29,858

dad was an admiral

336

00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:32,903

who was buddy with Charles the second

337

00:18:33,862 --> 00:18:34,488

and Charles the

338

00:18:34,488 --> 00:18:37,491

second’s Brother, James of York,

who then became the King.

339

00:18:37,574 --> 00:18:39,493

They were buddies

340

00:18:39,493 --> 00:18:42,746

and they were social buddies and but,

341

00:18:43,330 --> 00:18:46,375

William Penn's

dad, as his name was also William Penn,

342

00:18:47,417 --> 00:18:50,420

the first,

343

00:18:51,004 --> 00:18:53,382

after the Battle of Lowestoft,

344

00:18:53,382 --> 00:18:58,220

they spent a lot of money to fire

a lot of cannons and defeat the king owed

345

00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:01,974

a lot of money, and William Penn's

dad paid it for him.

346

00:19:02,474 --> 00:19:06,520

So the King owed William Penn

a lot of money, never paid it.

347

00:19:07,354 --> 00:19:10,399

And William

Penn got a bright idea as a Quaker,

348

00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:14,111

he said, our people so persecuted?

349

00:19:14,361 --> 00:19:17,364

There's the land over there, new Jersey.

350

00:19:17,656 --> 00:19:19,449

There's land west of the Delaware.

351

00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:22,452

Maybe the King would give me that

instead of paying off the debt.

352

00:19:22,953 --> 00:19:24,204

He tried it with the King.

353

00:19:24,204 --> 00:19:29,835

He said, yeah, he gave him the biggest

bunch of land anybody ever got free

354

00:19:30,836 --> 00:19:33,672

in 1681.

355

00:19:33,672 --> 00:19:36,675

And on it, it says this on the document.

356

00:19:39,219 --> 00:19:40,888

With special reference

357

00:19:40,888 --> 00:19:43,891

to the Battle of Lowestoft.

358

00:19:43,891 --> 00:19:45,976

That's why I'm giving you this land.

359

00:19:45,976 --> 00:19:50,105

Because your dad had a battle and then.

360

00:19:50,105 --> 00:19:51,648

And in the English Channel

361

00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:55,611

in the North Sea and won it for me

is basically what he's saying.

362

00:19:55,903 --> 00:19:58,697

So William Penn got Pennsylvania,

363

00:19:58,697 --> 00:20:01,700

because the king owed his dad

a military debt

364

00:20:02,743 --> 00:20:07,414

and then but William Penn knows Mennonites

because he's traveled to Europe

365

00:20:07,748 --> 00:20:11,084

and he's worshiped with them

sophisticated Dutch,

366

00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,963

countrified, palatines.

367

00:20:15,172 --> 00:20:16,798

And he knows the Swiss.

368

00:20:16,798 --> 00:20:19,801

And then he finally comes over here

himself.

369

00:20:19,968 --> 00:20:23,805

He gets the land in 1681,

he comes in 1682.

370

00:20:24,598 --> 00:20:29,895

And we have the date of 1683,

when an Indian remembers

371

00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:33,190

sitting down in the woods

with William Penn.

372

00:20:33,982 --> 00:20:36,985

And what what they did and what they said

373

00:20:37,069 --> 00:20:41,240

and made friendship that they thought

would be forever, which lasted 70 years.

374

00:20:41,823 --> 00:20:44,243

And then it burst into flames.

375

00:20:44,243 --> 00:20:47,579

And I talk about that, that narrative

all the way through there.

376

00:20:47,579 --> 00:20:47,746

And I

377

00:20:48,956 --> 00:20:51,166

again and again,

378

00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:55,545

quote what the Indians said at key points

379

00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:58,548

as they were, in the year

380

00:20:58,548 --> 00:21:01,885

1709 when William Penn wrote that letter,

381

00:21:02,886 --> 00:21:05,889

and my ancestors, Clemmons arrived

382

00:21:06,682 --> 00:21:09,017

that year,

383

00:21:09,017 --> 00:21:12,229

the boy that had heard William Penn talk

384

00:21:12,938 --> 00:21:18,193

love for Indians in 1683,

in the woods at Perkasie, has left

385

00:21:18,485 --> 00:21:22,656

and is out at the next at the Schuylkill

and the Susquehanna.

386

00:21:23,073 --> 00:21:26,076

So you're saying that person

had already been pushed out.

387

00:21:26,535 --> 00:21:27,619

He left.

388

00:21:27,619 --> 00:21:32,124

He left because there were so many people

coming in now.

389

00:21:32,124 --> 00:21:33,208

He wasn't driven.

390

00:21:33,208 --> 00:21:35,168

He wasn't driven out at that point.

391

00:21:35,168 --> 00:21:40,007

Economically yes,

now that that young boy who was just a boy

392

00:21:40,048 --> 00:21:44,553

listening to William

but never forgot that he died in the 1740s

393

00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:49,641

and he became the chief of our Indians,

the Lanapes.

394

00:21:50,434 --> 00:21:53,478

They didn't use the word chief,

I forget, sachem.

395

00:21:53,645 --> 00:21:54,813

I don't know what word they used.

396

00:21:55,981 --> 00:21:58,275

But here's the thing.

397

00:21:58,275 --> 00:22:01,278

First he went to the Schuylkill,

398

00:22:01,570 --> 00:22:04,281

Then he went to the Susquehanna.

399

00:22:04,281 --> 00:22:07,284

And then their people went to the Ohio.

400

00:22:07,743 --> 00:22:11,204

Every time the whites came

right after him, took their land.

401

00:22:11,538 --> 00:22:16,168

And only when the Indians finally realized

there was no way out of this,

402

00:22:16,168 --> 00:22:19,171

they were going to have

nothing is when they attacked.

403

00:22:19,629 --> 00:22:21,798

And that's when the Mennonites

tell the story.

404

00:22:21,798 --> 00:22:24,676

When the attack starts.

405

00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:26,553

Well okay.

406

00:22:26,553 --> 00:22:28,597

So my head is spinning a little bit

407

00:22:28,597 --> 00:22:31,600

because I've just never heard any,

any of this.

408

00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:32,893

Right.

409

00:22:32,893 --> 00:22:35,729

Why were the Mennonites going along with

this.

410

00:22:35,729 --> 00:22:36,438

Was it.

411

00:22:36,438 --> 00:22:39,107

We're just not really going to pay

attention to what's happening

412

00:22:39,107 --> 00:22:42,110

or they they were genuinely ignorant

of these things.

413

00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:43,695

Do we know at all?

414

00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:46,698

And then, like you said,

we start hearing the stories

415

00:22:47,115 --> 00:22:49,868

much later when the Indians

start attacking, for example.

416

00:22:49,868 --> 00:22:52,871

I mean that those are the only stories

I've heard at least.

417

00:22:52,954 --> 00:22:54,289

Can you speak into that at all?

418

00:22:55,665 --> 00:22:58,168

Well, look, the Lanapes

419

00:22:58,168 --> 00:23:01,171

after the Swedes and the Dutch came,

420

00:23:01,546 --> 00:23:04,633

and the British took over in 1664.

421

00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,762

Were so wracked by,

422

00:23:10,097 --> 00:23:10,972

Smallpox.

423

00:23:10,972 --> 00:23:15,143

It killed

probably 80% up to 75 or 80% of them.

424

00:23:15,936 --> 00:23:18,522

So they were only a remnant.

425

00:23:18,522 --> 00:23:21,525

And they were, really,

426

00:23:21,942 --> 00:23:25,237

in terms of your vision

of reality, insignificant.

427

00:23:25,987 --> 00:23:26,863

And they gave up.

428

00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:29,866

They were so there was no relationship

429

00:23:29,950 --> 00:23:31,660

there. There are exceptions.

430

00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:36,164

But its general picture

is the remnant of the Lenapes

431

00:23:36,915 --> 00:23:39,709

were not even of

432

00:23:39,709 --> 00:23:42,504

the only problem you had with them

433

00:23:42,504 --> 00:23:46,716

was to sign papers

to give up more and more land.

434

00:23:47,092 --> 00:23:48,051

And they always did.

435

00:23:48,051 --> 00:23:49,803

And they were given gifts.

436

00:23:49,803 --> 00:23:53,765

They were given guns,

and they were given needles and,

437

00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:59,688

tools and gunpowder and rum,

and they would always sign.

438

00:23:59,688 --> 00:24:01,356

Sure, sure, sure.

439

00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:05,485

And their idea in, in their brain.

440

00:24:05,485 --> 00:24:07,028

And then a heart was never that.

441

00:24:07,028 --> 00:24:10,031

They,

when they started talking with the whites,

442

00:24:10,157 --> 00:24:13,535

it was always on the basis of

we're going to live together, not like up

443

00:24:13,535 --> 00:24:16,663

in New England or Virginia

where there was blood.

444

00:24:17,539 --> 00:24:19,666

William Penn, they said, you’re different.

445

00:24:19,666 --> 00:24:21,626

We're going to live together.

446

00:24:21,626 --> 00:24:24,171

And they both believed it.

447

00:24:24,171 --> 00:24:27,048

And when the Indians would come back

from time

448

00:24:27,048 --> 00:24:30,051

to time to Philadelphia

449

00:24:30,135 --> 00:24:32,429

to in order to negotiate.

450

00:24:32,429 --> 00:24:35,432

And I'll mention a couple of reasons

why they did.

451

00:24:36,099 --> 00:24:38,685

They would always talk about love. Love.

452

00:24:40,604 --> 00:24:41,313

We have more

453

00:24:41,313 --> 00:24:45,150

talk from the Indians about love

than anything about men, than anything.

454

00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:48,153

The mennonites left on record.

455

00:24:48,945 --> 00:24:50,030

But they did.

456

00:24:50,030 --> 00:24:53,158

But like in the book of, Samuel

457

00:24:53,158 --> 00:24:57,704

and Kings and Chronicles,

when David wanted the Jebusite

458

00:24:57,704 --> 00:25:00,707

hill of Zion, he said, I’ll have it,

thank you very much.

459

00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:03,418

And he drove them away.

460

00:25:03,418 --> 00:25:05,879

And they are no longer part of the story.

461

00:25:05,879 --> 00:25:08,882

And the Lenapes

were not part of our story.

462

00:25:09,216 --> 00:25:10,550

So God didn't care about them.

463

00:25:10,550 --> 00:25:15,263

He had to give us this land,

and that was where God was interested.

464

00:25:15,597 --> 00:25:19,184

And thank you, God,

every time at Harvest Home. And,

465

00:25:20,227 --> 00:25:22,646

about how when we came here,

466

00:25:22,646 --> 00:25:25,941

and one Indian said, well, one

a Mennonite minister said,

467

00:25:25,941 --> 00:25:29,861

and I saw this or dreamed

I saw it, but I think I saw it on YouTube.

468

00:25:30,445 --> 00:25:35,242

He was showing some German tourists,

some land in Lancaster County blooming

469

00:25:35,242 --> 00:25:39,955

with there's nothing like Lancaster

County, hardly anywhere, he said.

470

00:25:40,497 --> 00:25:43,458

I don't know if you can talk Pennsylvania

Dutch or no, no.

471

00:25:43,458 --> 00:25:47,170

Well, he said in Pennsylvania

Dutch to these Indian tourists.

472

00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:49,756

He said, now

when we came here, there was nothing here.

473

00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,093

There were Indians living there.

474

00:25:53,093 --> 00:25:57,681

The creek was named Conestoga

and Pekaway Chickies

475

00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:01,101

and Allegheny.

476

00:26:01,101 --> 00:26:02,811

The names came from before.

477

00:26:02,811 --> 00:26:04,062

But he said there was nothing here.

478

00:26:04,062 --> 00:26:07,065

It doesn't even figure

in their imagination.

479

00:26:07,607 --> 00:26:12,195

Well, this bugged me like it bugged

Conrad Grebel to start thinking

480

00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:16,074

who is paying for his scholarship

at the University of Paris.

481

00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:20,203

Whose land did I am I enjoying so much?

482

00:26:20,203 --> 00:26:24,916

And and, on my wife put the initials

483

00:26:25,292 --> 00:26:28,295

of our ownership of our land all around

484

00:26:29,963 --> 00:26:31,381

her proctor in our living room.

485

00:26:31,381 --> 00:26:37,846

And now it started with WP: 1684

when he bought it from the Indians,

486

00:26:37,846 --> 00:26:41,349

William Penn,

and then all the all the her’s, Landis's

487

00:26:41,349 --> 00:26:45,353

and Martins and all the names of the Ruths

and so forth,

488

00:26:45,604 --> 00:26:50,025

but nothing about what were before for

who knows how many thousands of years

489

00:26:50,775 --> 00:26:53,153

it was not

even if I didn't have to think about that.

490

00:26:54,779 --> 00:26:57,574

And I think,

491

00:26:57,574 --> 00:27:00,577

well, the Indians never forgot.

492

00:27:00,952 --> 00:27:03,955

Their still sad,

493

00:27:05,165 --> 00:27:08,168

and that's a whole other story, but,

494

00:27:09,002 --> 00:27:11,546

it's important for me to, to to,

495

00:27:11,546 --> 00:27:14,549

to report that

496

00:27:15,717 --> 00:27:17,594

when the Indians left,

497

00:27:17,594 --> 00:27:20,555

I say Indians and they,

they use the word to

498

00:27:20,555 --> 00:27:23,808

when they first moved from the Perkiomen,

where I lived,

499

00:27:24,934 --> 00:27:27,937

and the Delaware,

which is the the eastern border,

500

00:27:27,937 --> 00:27:30,940

they moved to the next big river,

which was,

501

00:27:31,107 --> 00:27:34,110

the Schuylkill.

502

00:27:34,194 --> 00:27:38,448

along the Schuylkill

and along that general area.

503

00:27:38,448 --> 00:27:42,911

They had to,

they had about three pockets left,

504

00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:47,123

the Lehigh that came down from the north,

505

00:27:47,415 --> 00:27:50,794

the Schuylkill, the Brandywine,

and the topahoften,

506

00:27:50,794 --> 00:27:53,797

now those are all Indian names.

507

00:27:53,963 --> 00:27:56,966

So there were pockets of Indians

left there.

508

00:27:58,343 --> 00:28:02,097

The Quakers finessed the Indians

out of Brandywine.

509

00:28:02,097 --> 00:28:03,890

Businessmen, speculators,

510

00:28:06,184 --> 00:28:06,559

other

511

00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:09,771

Palatines that were

not Anabaptists came down and they weren't

512

00:28:09,771 --> 00:28:14,150

happy in the Hudson River and took over

topahoften, And the Indians protested.

513

00:28:14,984 --> 00:28:17,987

So they moved out to the Susquehanna,

514

00:28:18,238 --> 00:28:19,906

and they lived there.

515

00:28:19,906 --> 00:28:23,868

And then the white people came along

and bought that land,

516

00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:27,080

and they found that they couldn't

stay there either.

517

00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,833

And then they went to the Ohio,

518

00:28:29,833 --> 00:28:32,752

and they found they couldn't

stand their stand there either.

519

00:28:32,752 --> 00:28:36,381

And I read what the secretaries wrote.

520

00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:38,216

I mean,

521

00:28:38,216 --> 00:28:40,176

this is not original with me.

522

00:28:40,176 --> 00:28:43,638

University

scholars had been at this papers long

523

00:28:43,638 --> 00:28:46,641

before I ever even dreamed of them,

524

00:28:46,766 --> 00:28:50,061

but I went and read them myself

from my personal interest level

525

00:28:50,687 --> 00:28:53,815

and here was Sesunan, this boy that sat

526

00:28:53,857 --> 00:28:56,860

and I heard William

Penn talk and never forgot.

527

00:28:57,235 --> 00:29:01,239

And he came back, for

instance, from the from the,

528

00:29:02,449 --> 00:29:03,950

Schuylkill and said, we have

529

00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:08,747

a question in 1715,

first time he came as chief, he said,

530

00:29:09,873 --> 00:29:12,625

how come some years

531

00:29:12,625 --> 00:29:15,587

we got good prices for our furs?

532

00:29:15,879 --> 00:29:19,507

Beaver were almost gone by then,

but some next year we come in.

533

00:29:19,507 --> 00:29:21,801

It's no, we don't understand that.

534

00:29:21,801 --> 00:29:24,721

It doesn't seem fair to us.

535

00:29:24,721 --> 00:29:27,932

They said you have to think like

they're think in Europe.

536

00:29:27,932 --> 00:29:31,603

Styles change

and when there's a fad on for Beaver,

537

00:29:31,728 --> 00:29:34,522

that's when you get good prices

or when there isn't you, don't

538

00:29:34,522 --> 00:29:36,107

you got to think like that.

539

00:29:36,107 --> 00:29:39,110

Well, you couldn't

get that through a Lanapes head.

540

00:29:40,487 --> 00:29:42,363

So what they did was here,

541

00:29:42,363 --> 00:29:45,742

here are some biscuits and some rum

and some gunpowder.

542

00:29:45,742 --> 00:29:48,411

We love you to. Oh, thank you very much.

543

00:29:48,411 --> 00:29:51,414

So he went on a spree with the rum

and went home again.

544

00:29:51,414 --> 00:29:52,791

That's 1715.

545

00:29:53,958 --> 00:29:54,876

And the next time

546

00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:58,046

they come back,

they have questions about land.

547

00:29:59,297 --> 00:30:02,383

They said,

you never paid for this certain land.

548

00:30:02,509 --> 00:30:04,719

Oh, yes we did.

549

00:30:04,719 --> 00:30:06,596

And so what William Penn,

550

00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:11,476

secretary, went to the archives

and he pulled out a whole bunch of deeds,

551

00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:15,104

with these Indian signatures

on these scratchings.

552

00:30:16,022 --> 00:30:18,483

And he showed them to him.

553

00:30:18,483 --> 00:30:21,194

Well, you know, they recognize him.

554

00:30:21,194 --> 00:30:24,489

So he said,

you don't own any land anymore. Oh,

555

00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:29,202

they thought they could come and dig holes

and kill deer and

556

00:30:29,452 --> 00:30:30,787

and live there with them.

557

00:30:30,787 --> 00:30:32,539

Well, that was a dream.

558

00:30:32,539 --> 00:30:35,542

So they just kept moving

and moving and moving.

559

00:30:35,542 --> 00:30:39,462

And so what William

Penn secretary did in: 1718

560

00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:43,883

was he drew up he, he legal procedure

561

00:30:44,259 --> 00:30:46,970

drew up a quitclaim

562

00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:51,140

that was a legal document

in which the Indian signed their names.

563

00:30:51,432 --> 00:30:52,934

We own nothing here.

564

00:30:55,353 --> 00:30:57,981

And he gave them more to eat and a more.

565

00:30:57,981 --> 00:31:00,984

And they finally signed that to.

566

00:31:02,694 --> 00:31:06,197

And, that didn't settle things

567

00:31:06,197 --> 00:31:09,284

because that was in the white people's

minds,

568

00:31:10,451 --> 00:31:14,747

legal, they made promises in their heads

and they never forgot them.

569

00:31:14,914 --> 00:31:18,918

And to them,

that was more this riding on a feather

570

00:31:18,918 --> 00:31:22,088

on a paper, by the way,

they called William Penn feather, pen.

571

00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:25,884

They, they called their name

572

00:31:26,050 --> 00:31:29,053

for him was feather

573

00:31:29,304 --> 00:31:31,014

in their language.

574

00:31:31,014 --> 00:31:35,852

So they have to the white people said, now

you got to learn to think like we think.

575

00:31:36,561 --> 00:31:41,232

And I put in my book

a document in which Penn’s Secretary

576

00:31:41,357 --> 00:31:45,153

sits down with Sesunan, and for

it must have been an hour

577

00:31:45,153 --> 00:31:48,156

or so spelled out the rationale.

578

00:31:48,197 --> 00:31:50,283

He says, now you have to think like this.

579

00:31:51,326 --> 00:31:51,659

Well, the

580

00:31:51,659 --> 00:31:54,662

Indians never did get to their head.

581

00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:56,039

What's fair is fair.

582

00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:01,210

No matter if you write it with a feather,

with a goose quill on leather or anything

583

00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:05,632

that's not as real

as the promise that we made

584

00:32:05,673 --> 00:32:08,676

that we will always be friends

and have love with each other.

585

00:32:08,843 --> 00:32:11,846

So I go in my book

and I find those words of love,

586

00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:16,059

and I write them in that book

so that whoever bothers to read that book

587

00:32:16,267 --> 00:32:20,355

will at least see that

and not have just these vague ideas

588

00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:23,358

in their head of the Indians disappearing.

589

00:32:24,192 --> 00:32:27,153

They disappeared with regret

wherever they moved,

590

00:32:27,487 --> 00:32:30,490

and they still have that regret.

591

00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:34,285

So I'm

guessing a lot of people hearing this

592

00:32:35,536 --> 00:32:38,998

haven't, haven't heard this story,

don't know this at all

593

00:32:39,457 --> 00:32:43,795

and aren't familiar with what

the Mennonites like our ancestors.

594

00:32:43,795 --> 00:32:46,756

The process of where

this came, comes from.

595

00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:48,466

We were no worse than others.

596

00:32:48,466 --> 00:32:51,052

The Mennonites were no worse

and sometimes better.

597

00:32:51,052 --> 00:32:51,636

Right?

598

00:32:51,636 --> 00:32:54,973

But but we paid no attention

to that drama.

599

00:32:54,973 --> 00:32:59,268

It sounds more like an issue of perhaps

ignorance or who knows, but.

600

00:32:59,268 --> 00:33:03,648

Well, sure, when it's savages

who just shoot squirrels and,

601

00:33:04,190 --> 00:33:06,776

and, and are drunk a lot

602

00:33:06,776 --> 00:33:11,155

and are poor and barely living

yet, you know, is that what

603

00:33:12,407 --> 00:33:12,824

God wants?

604

00:33:12,824 --> 00:33:15,910

God builds a beautiful country here

and gave it to us?

605

00:33:16,285 --> 00:33:17,954

That's our dream.

606

00:33:17,954 --> 00:33:20,957

That's our rhetoric.

607

00:33:21,416 --> 00:33:23,459

There there is, you know,

608

00:33:23,459 --> 00:33:26,629

the whole idea of manifest Destiny

and some of that, you know, like.

609

00:33:26,879 --> 00:33:27,714

That’s related.

610

00:33:27,714 --> 00:33:30,675

This related where it's like,

oh, see this wonderful thing we were given

611

00:33:30,675 --> 00:33:33,845

while not quite maybe realizing.

612

00:33:34,387 --> 00:33:39,100

But today yet if you talk

to a lot of evangelical Mennonites,

613

00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:42,645

if you raise this kind of concern,

this visceral,

614

00:33:43,104 --> 00:33:47,066

after all,

they say who you've been listening to?

615

00:33:47,358 --> 00:33:48,901

that's wokeism.

616

00:33:48,901 --> 00:33:50,028

It's communism.

617

00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:53,406

I was going to say that I can about

618

00:33:54,449 --> 00:33:59,370

guess to within a high degree of accuracy,

the comments and feedback we'll get

619

00:33:59,412 --> 00:34:00,455

when we publish this.

620

00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:01,956

Right now, that means we're

621

00:34:01,956 --> 00:34:04,959

we're still going to publish it,

but people are going to say, oh,

622

00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:08,880

that's just you been drinking

the liberal Kool-Aid or something crazy.

623

00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,216

You know, they're going to say that,

I know that, and I can't,

624

00:34:12,717 --> 00:34:17,555

go, I can't do anything about that

except to lay on record.

625

00:34:17,764 --> 00:34:21,392

And I know that people who are

curious enough will think,

626

00:34:22,477 --> 00:34:23,853

Well, so

627

00:34:23,853 --> 00:34:26,856

so I'd like to to drill in on that a bit.

628

00:34:26,856 --> 00:34:30,735

So as we hear this story get this is

this is new for me, right?

629

00:34:30,735 --> 00:34:32,403

I haven't heard this story.

630

00:34:32,403 --> 00:34:35,156

What should our response be?

631

00:34:35,156 --> 00:34:37,992

I'm not there yet.

632

00:34:37,992 --> 00:34:40,995

I'm still drinking in the story.

633

00:34:41,204 --> 00:34:43,081

And I think their response

634

00:34:43,081 --> 00:34:47,418

will take shape in the people's

consciousness as they think about it.

635

00:34:47,710 --> 00:34:50,213

And it will be a gradual process.

636

00:34:50,213 --> 00:34:52,298

like a shape,

almost like a shaping process.

637

00:34:52,298 --> 00:34:55,802

As, as we dwell with the story

it will find form.

638

00:34:55,802 --> 00:34:57,929

It will find form.

639

00:34:57,929 --> 00:35:01,599

I cannot administer or strategize

that form.

640

00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:04,602

There are all kinds of groups

getting together

641

00:35:04,644 --> 00:35:07,897

and seminars about it and strategizing.

642

00:35:08,231 --> 00:35:10,942

And it's not that I'm against them at all,

643

00:35:10,942 --> 00:35:13,486

except that that's not where I am

emotionally.

644

00:35:13,486 --> 00:35:17,323

I had to first understand

the story and get some feeling about it.

645

00:35:18,032 --> 00:35:23,246

And out of that, you know, when I was 92,

I lived well.

646

00:35:23,246 --> 00:35:25,748

I lived my life along a Creek.

647

00:35:25,748 --> 00:35:28,751

I decided I want to find out where

that creek started.

648

00:35:28,835 --> 00:35:33,214

It was high time and it sure was at

perkasie where Sesunan heard,

649

00:35:34,924 --> 00:35:35,550

because I lived

650

00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:38,553

on the Perkiomen Creek branch of it.

651

00:35:38,678 --> 00:35:41,681

And when I got to the source

of that creek,

652

00:35:42,515 --> 00:35:46,144

I looked for a narrowing rivulet.

653

00:35:46,144 --> 00:35:49,897

I was looking for a narrative, specificity

654

00:35:49,897 --> 00:35:53,442

that I could follow, and I wanted to see

where it bubbled out of the ground.

655

00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:56,737

You know, just like I wanted to go to see

Conrad Grebel’s letter.

656

00:35:56,737 --> 00:35:58,865

You know, I wanted to go to the source.

657

00:35:58,865 --> 00:36:00,658

And when I got there, I found that

658

00:36:00,658 --> 00:36:03,953

it was not a matter

of bubbling out of the specifics.

659

00:36:04,203 --> 00:36:06,998

It was seeping up and gathering.

660

00:36:06,998 --> 00:36:10,293

And that, I think, is how things gather

in the human consciousness.

661

00:36:10,543 --> 00:36:13,546

It seeps up and then it takes form,

662

00:36:14,255 --> 00:36:18,634

and then someone gives it a name

and and a language,

663

00:36:19,218 --> 00:36:22,930

and then it becomes a concept

in our minds and takes,

664

00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:25,892

it becomes an

665

00:36:25,892 --> 00:36:29,145

algorithm, which then becomes a post,

666

00:36:29,395 --> 00:36:32,648

it becomes a thing somewhere, takes form.

667

00:36:33,232 --> 00:36:36,194

And, this is happening in our country.

668

00:36:36,194 --> 00:36:41,157

And by the way,

the people that are making the most noise

669

00:36:41,324 --> 00:36:45,494

about helping

the Indians can be very annoying to me.

670

00:36:46,621 --> 00:36:48,164

They're very self-righteous.

671

00:36:48,164 --> 00:36:51,334

You can be a fundamentalist on the left

as well as on the right.

672

00:36:52,043 --> 00:36:55,171

And to me, it's in my generation.

673

00:36:55,171 --> 00:36:57,632

I'm hearing this story.

I'm getting the feeling.

674

00:36:57,632 --> 00:36:59,842

And maybe when I talk like this,

675

00:36:59,842 --> 00:37:02,845

people ask me the same questions to say,

what are we going to do?

676

00:37:03,387 --> 00:37:05,640

I don't know,

677

00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,933

but I know one thing.

678

00:37:06,933 --> 00:37:10,686

I have struck up a relationship

and a conversation with, with them,

679

00:37:11,229 --> 00:37:14,774

and that I'm just a teeny part

of that conversation.

680

00:37:14,774 --> 00:37:18,194

Other people are doing it all over,

and something will happen.

681

00:37:18,194 --> 00:37:21,113

We'll we'll cross thresholds of feeling.

682

00:37:21,113 --> 00:37:24,367

And in the meantime,

we'll argue each other out of

683

00:37:25,743 --> 00:37:27,411

nowhere.

684

00:37:27,411 --> 00:37:30,414

So I'm wondering how

685

00:37:30,873 --> 00:37:34,001

say a podcast like this can

686

00:37:35,253 --> 00:37:37,296

help inspire our audience

687

00:37:37,296 --> 00:37:40,258

to be more aware of our story,

our history.

688

00:37:40,466 --> 00:37:43,803

And when I say that,

I mean not just the parts that we like.

689

00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:45,471

You know. Right.

690

00:37:45,471 --> 00:37:46,472

Could you speak to that?

691

00:37:46,472 --> 00:37:49,392

Like, what would you like to see there?

692

00:37:49,392 --> 00:37:53,145

Well look, I did what I could

by putting it down on paper

693

00:37:53,604 --> 00:37:56,565

and letting you hear Sesunan's words,

694

00:37:56,565 --> 00:38:00,194

not just the, the victorious,

695

00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,323

conquerors interpretation of history.

696

00:38:05,241 --> 00:38:08,869

And I ask myself, what would Jesus, what?

697

00:38:08,869 --> 00:38:11,872

What is Jesus in me?

698

00:38:12,498 --> 00:38:15,501

Must respect the Samaritan.

699

00:38:16,544 --> 00:38:20,673

And in the Old Testament really.

700

00:38:21,507 --> 00:38:23,592

David says, I want Zion.

701

00:38:23,592 --> 00:38:24,593

I'm sorry.

702

00:38:24,593 --> 00:38:28,222

They say you can’t have Zion

because, that's

703

00:38:28,222 --> 00:38:32,268

where they keep the laim

and the blind up there.

704

00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,732

And David is quoted by the Righteous

Writer, I hate the lame and the blind.

705

00:38:37,815 --> 00:38:39,650

I'm going to get rid of them, and I will.

706

00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:43,529

And then and more seriously.

707

00:38:43,529 --> 00:38:46,157

And there you have to be an adult.

708

00:38:46,157 --> 00:38:50,536

The writer of the Chronicles or kings,

I forget, which says quotes God

709

00:38:51,245 --> 00:38:54,999

referring to Zion, and says,

my name shall be there.

710

00:38:55,666 --> 00:38:58,044

And now we are all marching to Zion.

711

00:38:58,044 --> 00:38:59,920

Beautiful, beautiful Zion.

712

00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:04,216

And the Jebusites are nothing

but roadkill, they’re out of the way.

713

00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,760

And I'm not there.

714

00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,514

I don't think Jesus was there because

when Jesus came to the temple at Zion,

715

00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:14,602

he kicked out the establishment

business people.

716

00:39:15,853 --> 00:39:18,439

And who came in

717

00:39:18,439 --> 00:39:20,316

the lame in the blind?

718

00:39:20,316 --> 00:39:21,317

Oh wow.

719

00:39:21,317 --> 00:39:24,195

That's the logic

720

00:39:24,195 --> 00:39:26,364

of the King.

721

00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:29,325

The upside down kingdom

I guess you could say you know

722

00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:32,870

Kingdom logic

And so my adventure into this

723

00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,540

was not as an expert or a historian

or anything is simply,

724

00:39:37,375 --> 00:39:40,002

So when I told the story

725

00:39:40,002 --> 00:39:43,422

about a year or two ago,

a man came up to me afterward.

726

00:39:44,131 --> 00:39:48,344

I'm sure most people were bemused

by my talk, but one man came up and said,

727

00:39:48,344 --> 00:39:52,181

you know, this is the first time

I felt this viscerally, he said.

728

00:39:54,433 --> 00:39:56,477

So as we

729

00:39:56,477 --> 00:39:59,814

wrap this story up, what is something

730

00:39:59,814 --> 00:40:02,817

you would like to leave

with the next generation?

731

00:40:03,818 --> 00:40:06,278

Maybe a word of advice or.

732

00:40:06,278 --> 00:40:06,529

Yeah.

733

00:40:06,529 --> 00:40:08,531

Anything really

that you would like to leave them to

734

00:40:08,531 --> 00:40:11,492

perhaps

help guard against the errors of the past?

735

00:40:12,451 --> 00:40:15,204

To be honest,

and this is not false humility.

736

00:40:15,204 --> 00:40:18,207

I don't feel much wisdom on this.

737

00:40:18,332 --> 00:40:21,961

I just feel curiosity

and a willingness to.

738

00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:27,383

To, to, hear out,

739

00:40:27,925 --> 00:40:30,136

my story, the story

740

00:40:30,136 --> 00:40:33,139

that I had to search for as an amateur.

741

00:40:34,306 --> 00:40:36,767

Let me tell you a closing story

that I tell.

742

00:40:36,767 --> 00:40:39,270

And at the end of my book,

743

00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:41,730

it was told to me

by a man named Marvin Kraker,

744

00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:46,861

who is from a Russian Mennonite background

who was with the, Indians.

745

00:40:47,194 --> 00:40:51,407

I forget the

which Indians are in Oklahoma also.

746

00:40:51,574 --> 00:40:52,825

And he told me this story.

747

00:40:53,826 --> 00:40:56,662

He said, they used to tell this story

748

00:40:56,662 --> 00:40:59,665

that in the Cherokee land rush,

749

00:41:01,167 --> 00:41:05,254

somebody shot off a gun,

and then you could race

750

00:41:05,254 --> 00:41:08,257

and plant your stake,

and you could be a stake.

751

00:41:08,507 --> 00:41:11,677

What they call that anyway,

that could be your homestead.

752

00:41:12,761 --> 00:41:15,764

Mennonites lined up with the land rush.

753

00:41:16,599 --> 00:41:19,602

And they took off at the crack of a gun.

754

00:41:19,727 --> 00:41:23,939

And one Mennonite, there was a story

that came down of one Mennonite family.

755

00:41:23,939 --> 00:41:29,195

The man drove the horses and the

the wife sat in a wagon with the stake.

756

00:41:29,403 --> 00:41:32,406

She was going to plant it

when he picked out a place

757

00:41:33,157 --> 00:41:36,035

and he raced in their free land,

758

00:41:36,035 --> 00:41:39,038

you know, Cherokee land,

759

00:41:39,246 --> 00:41:42,249

Indian land raced in there.

760

00:41:42,249 --> 00:41:47,922

Free land finally found the spot

and turned around to his wife...

761

00:41:49,089 --> 00:41:51,967

she had bounced out of the wagon

762

00:41:51,967 --> 00:41:54,762

somewhere back,

he had to go back and find her.

763

00:41:54,762 --> 00:41:57,640

And where she landed,

she put the stake in.

764

00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,975

That was the Mennonite homestead.

765

00:41:59,975 --> 00:42:02,645

You could tell that story

as a Mennonite quilting

766

00:42:02,645 --> 00:42:04,855

and everybody would be entertained.

767

00:42:04,855 --> 00:42:07,858

How God, how God leads

768

00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:11,153

tell that story to a

769

00:42:11,153 --> 00:42:12,238

indigenous person.

770

00:42:12,238 --> 00:42:15,241

Is it funny?

771

00:42:15,241 --> 00:42:16,492

How about looking at from.

772

00:42:16,492 --> 00:42:18,369

That's all I did in the book.

773

00:42:18,369 --> 00:42:21,372

I try to look at it from both sides.

774

00:42:22,748 --> 00:42:23,624

That's all I could do.

775

00:42:23,624 --> 00:42:24,708

That's all I've done.

776

00:42:24,708 --> 00:42:27,711

I wish I did a better job.

777

00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,963

Whoo.

778

00:42:28,963 --> 00:42:30,506

Yeah.

779

00:42:30,506 --> 00:42:33,759

I just want to thank you for the effort

780

00:42:33,759 --> 00:42:36,762

you put in to telling this story.

781

00:42:37,721 --> 00:42:44,353

And that can be the challenge of history,

I guess, is there are sometimes there's.

782

00:42:44,812 --> 00:42:46,772

Not necessarily popular. Right.

783

00:42:46,772 --> 00:42:50,484

There's stories sometimes that

that we don't like, you know, and.

784

00:42:50,609 --> 00:42:53,571

Oh, I don't really want to hear that or

I don't want to have to think about that.

785

00:42:54,196 --> 00:42:55,948

And... That’s how our church got started.

786

00:42:55,948 --> 00:42:58,242

People were saying,

things don't make sense here.

787

00:43:00,411 --> 00:43:01,036

We go

788

00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:04,790

to Conrad said, use the word

check with the word go.

789

00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:07,793

Go with it and form a church out of that.

790

00:43:08,335 --> 00:43:10,254

Think, think those things.

791

00:43:10,254 --> 00:43:12,214

Yeah. Anyway,

792

00:43:13,257 --> 00:43:15,926

Thanks for listening to this episode

with John Ruth.

793

00:43:15,926 --> 00:43:18,429

If you found this interesting,

you might want to watch this episode

794

00:43:18,429 --> 00:43:23,475

we did with John Roth, who explains some

of the beginnings of early anabaptism.

795

00:43:23,475 --> 00:43:26,478

And you can find that link down

in the description below.

796

00:43:26,478 --> 00:43:30,983

All our content is over on our website

at anabaptistperspectives.org,

797

00:43:30,983 --> 00:43:34,612

and you can also sign up to our monthly

email newsletter there as well.

798

00:43:35,029 --> 00:43:38,032

Thanks again for listening

and we'll see you in the next episode.