Are you a woman or non binary person in the LGBTQIA community who is new to the world of online dating? Maybe you've come out later in life and you want to meet someone special, but you aren't sure how to navigate dating apps. Or maybe you're a seasoned online dater who wants to create a compelling dating profile and get better results. Lavender Dating is a six week support program for any woman who identifies as lgbtqia designed to help you define your dating goals and create a dating profile that people will want to start, stop and read. We'll help you learn how to start conversations and keep them going. Help you to handle the common pitfalls of dating such as fishing or ghosting, hover red and green flags to watch for in a potential love interest and much more. Our next group coaching session starts Monday, November 4, 7pm Central Time on Zoom. Individual coaching sessions are available too. Sign up today at www.lavenderdating.com. that's lavender dating.com hey queer friends. Are you ready to be inspired? Welcome to Season five of Coming out and Beyond, a podcast that shares stories from the LGBTQIA community. Here's your host, Ann Marie Zanzel.

So, are you a later in Life life LGBTQIA person? I am, and my guest on the show today, Annie M. Henderson, is as well and we're here to talk about today is how this journey can look different for all of us. As we all know, many of us are recovering people pleasers and sometimes we think that our late in life journey needs to look like our friend who's coming out later in life. Or maybe Annie's journey that you watch on social media and social media, but it doesn't. So we're going to try to help you to get to the most authentic place for your particular journey today. So I'm really pleased to welcome to Coming out and Beyond Annie Emmett Henderson. She is an author and certified professional life coach dedicated to helping women achieve their goals. With two decades of experience in education and mental health, Annie has become a respected expert in her field. Her education has been the foundation for her successful career, allowing her to provide insightful guidance and support to her clients. She holds a Bachelor's degree in Psychology and multiple Master's degree in education, schools, counseling and professional counseling. Annie is the author of later in Life Lesbian and Also Women with adhd, which helps provide strategies, confronts myths and stigma, and provides an interactive journey for the reader to dive deeper. As a personal trainer for the mind, Annie teaches tools and strategies to help clients calm their nervous system and manage their thoughts so they can confidently set boundaries. Boundaries overcome fear, exhaustion, and people pleasing. Her latest dual certification to help her clients is in RIM and generational healing. Annie, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

I'm super excited. Now I'm going to let everyone know that I'm a fan of Annie and her content. She's got great content out there, and I was really intrigued by a lot of the things she says in her social media content really hits home for me and also what I'm trying to teach other. Other people. So thank you, Annie, for putting out such amazing content. I appreciate that. I'm.

I'm honored that it. You. It even finds you.

Well, algorithms, right?

Yes.

So, Annie, I'm going to ask you the first question I ask everybody on this show. Tell me your story.

All right, so how far back to go? So I'll start with this because my kiddo has taught me so much, so much in so many ways. It's such. I'm just wowed by her. Anyways, she taught me the. The phrase demisexual, which explains a lot to me. So my wife, she's someone that knew when she was 5 years old, like, yes, I am. But she grew up in Mississippi, so it was also like, I am and I cannot be. So we're just going to be quiet about that. And then I was just living my life playing sports growing up in North Texas, you know, there's no representation. There's no. It's just a lot of comp. Pet.

Are you. Well, you're East Texas. Because I know East Texas is incredibly compact. I mean, can you help me with the geography?

Yeah, yeah, I am. I'm in northeast, so about an hour north of Dallas and like 10 minutes from Oklahoma.

Okay. So super conservative.

Yeah, pretty conservative. And, you know, I have a lot of clients who. The parents are way more Bibley, way more conservative than my parents. So I, I kind of lucked out on that end. Yes, we did. I was raised Catholic. We were there CCD on Wednesdays and church on Sundays.

Okay. What was like growing up Catholic in Texas? That here too? Because I was going to. I was assuming Southern Baptist, non educational Pentecostal Church of Christ. I was assuming that. Good gosh, I haven't heard of too many Catholics growing up.

Yeah, yeah. You know what? Like, a lot of things with my family, it was. It seemed more of a checking the box kind of attendance. Like, we. We knew all our prayers, we attended, but I feel like, gosh, I feel like, my mom was usually probably the most frustrated and probably anxious. Gosh, it took too long for this to finally just hit me, like, anxious on. On Sundays. But of course, that's when you go and you dress up and you go and walk amongst everybody. And I think there's just a lot of fear of judgment with my mom that was passed on. So, yeah, I didn't know anything different until maybe I was older. And then, yeah, all my friends were Baptist, so I got to hang out with them. And then I met my boyfriend, future husband, and he went to a Pentecostal church. There it is for you. And that was. I mean, in terms of. I had a lot of friends. Like, some of my soccer teammates went there, so that was great. I loved hanging out with friends. And at the time, it was. My brother had gone off to college, and my parents had gotten divorce, and I think my mom was probably going through depression and menopause and a lot of heavy things, and it was just. I was happy to go to church no matter where it was, and hang out with friends. So we did that.

He.

And I was already well into my people pleaser phase. So it was like, a boyfriend would ask me out, and I'd be like, okay. And then I would, at some point, get up the nerve to be like, okay, this is. This is over. And then, like, the next one would ask immediately. So it was not really. I don't think I was single at all through. Through high school.

Well, and if those of you who are listening, Annie's very cute, so that's why probably the boys were lining up. And so you're fulfilling the heteronormative narrative.

You.

And you. You had the boyfriends. It didn't sound like you were too interested in them. You just dated them, and they asked poor boys. You tossed them aside.

And then. And then the other one I met playing softball so much, now that I.

Look back, softball's the gateway sport to Liz.

Yeah. Right, Right. But that's. That's where I met him. And then he asked me to marry him at 19.

Wow. 19.

I was 19.

Was he?

No, he was. I know. And of course, at the time, I was like, oh, I. I know him. No, he was 22, maybe, so not that much older.

He was.

Not that much. My kid likes to joke about it.

Yeah. Because I have from my mommy days. I have friends that, like, were 19 and 20 and married guys, 32, 33, you know, and that's sort of. They're all divorced now, but, you know, but he was like, Appropriately aged for you?

Yeah, Yeah, I think so. Although, like, if it was my kiddo now, I'd be like, no way. No, no. So. And what's interesting is I remember someone at our church that were engaged, and then they broke it off. And I remember, and I don't think I realized I was gay yet, but I was like, can you do that? No, that's not nice. That's not nice. You can't break that.

Anyway, so that was like a nice girls don't break up a gauge.

Yeah. Yeah, that's not nice. So. And then we, you know, we had fun. Uh, I. I remember thinking, like, oh, and before I got married, I was like, I'm gonna go away to college. Not away, but like, an hour away to a great psych school. And he was like, no, I don't think. I don't think that'll work, like, with us. And I was like, okay. Okay. So I stayed and went to the. The local college, which is a great college go ruse. And. Yeah. And then I just went to college and more college and more college. And we were great friends. We loved to play hockey and tennis and played all the sports, and we didn't fight. I was. You know, part of what my people pleasing clients can relate to is that we avoid conflict. Like, I know how to do it. And in my head, it was, you know, there's a lot less screaming than when I grew up. So I think I'm doing this right. I remember, like, kind of checking in with other women, and I'm like, this. The sex, that's just not it. Right. And I think even the straight women were like, yeah. And I was like, well.

And okay, so you've, like, said so much right now.

Help me at any time.

So I have noticed. I'm curious about your clientele as well. I tend to attract women that have a lot of degrees. And I was. When I was reading your bio, I'm like, how many master's degrees do you have? Three, you know. Now, do you look back at that now as like, you were searching for something? Because I often believe that a lot of times. Why? I mean, I got a master's degree in my 40s, you know, and I was searching for something. And so I was like, well, maybe I'll go back to school and this will fix whatever I'm searching for. When you look back in your life in retrospect, do you think that your educational journey was you searching for something?

I think it could be a beautiful combination of both.

Yeah.

Like, it was definitely like, the path. I wanted, like, yes, counseling psychology, I wanted all that. The education was a. Just a bonus that got thrown in there. But I'm sure it was a distraction because I remember, I remember being married and, you know, just going through the dinner routine and being like, is this, like, is this all it is on repeat for like. I cannot imagine.

I have a similar moment. I was, I mean, I was married a lot longer than you to my ex husband. I was married 27 years, but I remember looking out the window when I was in that moment of that period of my, call it my fetal position phase of deciding, am I going to really go and like, explore this? And I remember looking out and we had a group of friends over. We were very good entertainers. I, we, we were well known in our community for having great parties and stuff. Like, he was outside cooking on the fire, and I looked out and I said, I don't think I can do this the rest of my life. He was perfectly content and happy. He would have done that. And if I was a straight woman, maybe I would have been. You know what I mean? I don't know because I don't know how straight women think.

Yeah.

But I wonder if I would have been. But I understand, like, you know, that moment where you're standing in the kitchen or maybe, you know, tucking kids into bed or whatever, and all of a sudden it hits you, is, is this life? On repeat for the rest of my life? Right.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So how'd you figure out you were gay? Trucking along.

Right. So, yeah, in my demisexual world where I did not, like, I didn't have a crush on any of my friends, any of my teammates, like, we had fun playing. I was just all about play. I was a teacher, an elementary school teacher. Hey, teachers.

Somehow when you told me you were used to be a first grade teacher, I was like, that's no surprise. Yeah, you've got the vibe going.

Gosh, loved, love those little kiddos. And I, yeah, I never intended on being a teacher. I never wanted to be a teacher. But my school was offering a master's degree and I was like, okay, I can do that. It's a lot of that growing up. But my catalyst was at that school and I was still completely oblivious for the longest. I was just like, oh, I have a new friend.

This is so fun.

We can play some tennis and we can laugh. And it was clueless until she actually, like, made it extremely obvious and said something. And I was like, yeah, yeah, we're like, we're we're both married. That's like, it's not even.

Okay, so she was married to a man. She wasn't a. Okay. All right. And you said you shut her down.

I attempted to, yeah. For all of. For all of my. For all of your listeners that tend to know the idea of setting a boundary but then not holding a boundary.

Well, yeah. And also too. Of course you said no. I mean.

Right.

It didn't even occur to you. I mean like. And also too. Some people do say no at first to a catalyst or they say no to the catalyst. A catalyst. And they don't end up with that catalyst ever. But it sense them sends them on a journey of self exploration.

Oh, yes.

A catalyst doesn't have to be consummated. Consummated. Right. It can just be someone who makes you. Oh, I like girls.

Yeah. What is this new thought? Yes. So it wasn't a long lived. No. So it's. We, you know, we continued to hang out and a lot of. A lot of my people placing clients are praised for their loyalty. Right. Not always being there for others. So I was probably never going to be the person that was like, oh, this is not okay. This is inappropriate. This is my boundary. Like, we can't hang out anymore. It was like, oh, like, I hope you receive my no. And let's keep hanging out and spending time together.

Do you think now looking back is that it was more subconscious why you kept like hanging out with her? Because it was part of your. You. I mean, yes, it has to do with boundaries, but I always get when people have a relationship outside of their marriage when they're coming out. I always have such compassion and grace for people because it's much more complicated than, you know, having going to have sex with somebody, you know, because you're bored or because you're missing something in your marriage. It's. It's about finding out who you are.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure there was a piece of you in there. There was like, I'm going to keep hanging out with her. I mean, you not conscious.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I like being with her. And this feels good in a way different and good that it doesn't feel with my husband.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree. Because that's. Oh. And especially, you know, down. Down in the Bible belt and it's. And I've had so many different clients. So just how you started this episode of we. We can't compare our story to. I. If I had not met my catalyst and moved forward some with That I probably would maybe not still be married. Hopefully not. But it probably would have just gone on for a long time.

Well, my, my wife posed a really interesting question to me once. She said, she goes, you may not have put up with everything that you put up with if you were straight, even though it was not conscious. I mean, like, I'm one of those ones that sort of knew I was gay, you know, but she said, you know, you may have like been like, no, this isn't working. I'm, I'm not in love. You would have known that. But like, as somebody who was, you know, confused about my sexual identity, though not consciously confused about it until probably 10 years before I came out, I was like, I think I put up with sometimes. I won. I, you know, I'll never have the answers to this. But, you know, maybe I, I understand. Like, I understand because if I wasn't gay, I think I probably still would be with my ex husband. Just because we had built a good life together. We had, we have four abuse, you know, all those things I had done that. So even though it wasn't great, but I was straight, but then it gets so confusing because all your straight friends, it's not great.

Okay, this is what it is. This is where for the course.

Yeah. I said something that intrigued you. You were going to say something.

Who knows what that was going to be?

Oh, when I said about. Yeah, go ahead.

Yes, I do have. You know, so if anybody's listening, the idea that I should be grateful.

Right.

I have the white picket fence. I have and, and that's the truth. I have so many clients and even my own husband were nice, great men. And Ann Marie, I kind of joke about this, but maybe you can run with it because I like to think of ideas and then I hope someone else I'm like, we need to come out with a later in life lesbian dating apps for the husbands where the women are like five star review for this husband. He's now available. Like, he's great. And I'm the wife and I've gone through coaching like, and, and, and I'm also gay.

So I have absolutely no interest coming.

Back for this man ever, ever in my life.

I don't have enough energy. But they're that. But someone. You guys can steal that idea. Steal that idea. It's yours.

Yes.

O.

Okay. So you met your catalyst, met my catalyst and you kept, you know, being.

Friends with, kept doing it. That first kiss, that was all the confirmation that I needed.

Wow.

I was like, oh, oh, wow.

Really interesting.

Interesting, but not, like, not big enough for me to be like, all right, see you later. Like, I'm.

Yeah, I get it.

This marriage, it was a. Oh. Like, yes. Like, there was, like, that inner gut and that intuition, that knowing of, like, this is me. And now, you know, flashing back all through your. Your growing up years of. This makes sense, and this makes sense. But then the contrast of having your family in your church, in your small town, and.

Yeah, I get all that.

And like, oh, you can. That cannot happen.

Yeah. So you. I understand that kiss. The first kiss I had was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like. And I kissed plenty of boys. That was not the problem. You know, I was like, oh. And I remember the first time I slept with a woman, I literally felt my brain go click, click. I literally, like, I was like, okay, this is what they talk about. And I just. I was a skeptic. So, like, many of us, though, you had that experience and you're like, nope, can't do anything about it. Right.

Or.

So what happened? Like, I mean, like, for me, it was years. But I'm curious about you.

You're curious about me? Yeah. So just to throw, you know, one more example of a story so that everyone has all the. All the possibilities. So we worked together. There was a lot of behind the scenes. We didn't feel like such a child. We didn't go all the way until I was. Until I was divorced. And of course, that begs the question of what is all the way with lesbians. But it was. I. Oh, gosh. I became pregnant somewhere in the middle of. So I like to pretend that, like, oh, my. Like, instead of, like, stress, I feel like my kiddo in the womb had so many, like, good, amazing, euphoric, like, happiness. Like, oh, this is kind of who I am. Instead of the stress of, like, oh, even though I was still through all of that, all of that being said, my catalyst. And I've. I've rephrased this. Back in the day, I would say my catalyst was toxic. And now I am able to say, like, this relations were toxic.

Yeah, that's not all her fault. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. Yeah, and that's so many times in our lesbian community or the later in life community, people are like, oh, they were toxic. No, it's actually the two of them together probably were not a good fit. And, yeah, like, I hate when people throw the word narcissist around. Yeah, everybody's a narcissist. Yeah, everybody is. Before that, maybe back in the Day. You probably remember this. They used to call everybody borderline, you know, and it's now narcissist. And no, not everybody is. And. And I get that, like, a lot of times our first relationship with somebody, when we are coming out, often mimics our first relationship. So what I mean by that is, with men is that a lot of times women pick out, they end up with somebody who's very similar to their spouses in a lot of ways, especially around trauma and stuff like that. I have found it very interesting. And I don't know if you have found this too. I've had a lot of clients who've had a very successful second marriage, and then they. They fall in love with a woman, and the woman they're with is very much like their abusive first spouse. And I've seen that happen, like six or seven times. And so I think about that a lot and like, why does that happen? And we keep partnering with people that remind us of our primary caregivers. Right. And so you guys had a toxic relationship. You both contributed to that. And I love that you said that.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So then what?

So then we had, like, about a year break. So had my kiddo just took. Took a break, you know, raised my kiddo. And then what was beautiful about this time was I didn't have this pressure of like, oh, I need to make a move for you.

Right.

It was, you know, and I. And I wasn't. I wasn't secure and had done enough work to be able to fully be honest with. With my ex at the time. And so the conversation went something like this seems like we're just friends. Um, so that's. That's the approach. And then, you know, we. And he was like, can we try until our next anniversary? And I was like, sure.

But it's also. Yeah, that's like such an arbitrary. Like, why.

I know, I know. I was like. But for me, I was like, I see the light at the end of, like, oh, wow, six months is nothing. Like, I can. Yes. And that was just like, whoa. And actually, at first, he. At first he was like, you know, okay. And I think he went to talk to his parents, and I think his parents were like, fight for that girl. So he came back, and then he had a new idea, and I was like, okay, that's fine. I can do this. I've done seven years. I can keep going.

Can I ask you something? A lot of times I get a lot of women that come that their catalyst is birth, whether it is getting pregnant or having Their baby. As we know, a catalyst can be a human. You can fall in love with somebody, but a lot of times it can be a catalytic event, a divorce. I have had a lot of clients that either have. Are pregnant, have just given birth, or somewhere within the first five years of their child's life. When you look back at it, do you believe your son was another catalyst for your coming out?

My daughter.

Oh, it's okay. Daughter.

I'm sorry, she.

Annie, do you have one or two kids? I'm confused.

That's it. No, that's a great question. I don't know what I said earlier. Did I say Sam?

Yeah.

And then you.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So one daughter.

One daughter. And then I was a gestational carrier. So if you ever hear me talking about twins or something like that. Our first. Our first year of dating involved me being a gestational carrier and carrying twins.

Okay, got it.

It can get confusing. I get it.

Okay. Okay. So you have a. You have a daughter. Someone. And so with the birth of your daughter, do you believe she was a catalyst too, for your moving forward?

I think so. I don't know if it was. You know what? I think my daughter was more of a catalyst later on of, I gotta get out of this people pleasing. So I don't raise her to be like me. So that was a huge thing for me and just being okay with myself and. Yes. That whole process. But no, I don't. I don't see it for me as. She was my catalyst. It was definitely that woman.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right. So you had your daughter and you realized that, okay, I can't stay married anymore. And eventually you and your spouse got divorced.

Yes, yes, yes.

And were you single when you got divorced or were you seeing anyone?

Yeah, no, no. But this being a teacher. We're off. So we had had this talk in like early spring. And yeah, I was single, wasn't seeing anybody. I was. It was just raising my daughter and. And being married and being a teacher and then going into the summer and then. So our anniversary was August. Right around the time.

I gotta ask you when.

Oh, August. Yeah, 18th.

I was the 12th.

So school starting back, so I got to go up to my callus and be like, I'm getting a divorce now.

Had she gotten divorced?

No, she didn't. And she didn't for maybe a couple more years. I. Oh, wow. It ended before she did, but yeah. And I would.

Did you consider yourself gay at that point?

Oh, yeah.

Or demisexual. Okay. You did.

Yeah. I think as soon as that kiss happened, I'm like, oh, it makes sense. That's so cool.

A lot of people have to keep getting more and more.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Confirmation. Yeah. I think you're a little unusual in the fact, and that's why all our stories are different. You're a little unusual in the fact because you were like, oh, oh, that's it. I'm gay.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, I didn't have necessarily the action right behind it, but it was like, you. I can't. I can't erase what just happened. Like, Pandora's box is open. I now have this. This knowledge, and I think that's beautiful. I've had. I've had clients that have done that where they're like, I just. I'm just not sure, like, maybe what if I get out there and. And it's not for me. And then. And then they'll go and they'll have an experience, and then they come back and they're like, oh, I'm definitely gay and I can never go back to men. I'm like, yeah, so sometimes that catalyst or that first is just so eye opening, because sometimes we do have some clients that still have questions that are just still kind of doubting themselves, which is sad. Right. Because they're like, oh, I have this sense that I'm gay, but I'm, you know, taught to question myself and to not trust myself.

Right.

So that confirmation is beautiful.

And I think that that's really, like, for me, like this later in life journey. And I love that you use the term later in life as well. Annie and I were talking about that before the podcast, years ago, it was called late in life lesbian. But both of us started to use the language later in life because it's just later. You're not late. You're not late to any party. You haven't anything. It's just later. And as you can see, Annie's later in life experience was about 30, and mine was at 50. So later can any. Any age whether.

Yeah. You know, a later portion of your life after you've already had this experience.

And also we were talking a little bit about it and like, how do you define someone that's later? Right. Because I always say it's subjective. And I've had clients as young as 25.

Exactly. And clients.

A client's 75. You know, I've had all the ages. And I think one of the things is, I think one of the criteria that we talked about before as well is like, having a different life beforehand. Like, Annie was, you know, a teacher and a mom and, you know, was very in a heteronormative community in Texas. I was in a very heteronormative but liberal community in Connecticut. And it was just what we did. And I've had, like, I've had that life, and now I have this life. And so I think that's really the determining factor. And it doesn't matter if you've ever been married or not. I have plenty of clients that figure out they're gay, you know, and they've been single or dated their whole life and just never worked. And they thought something was wrong with them because, unlike their peers, they weren't pairing off with men, and they thought it was all their fault. And it's not. It's just they were fishing in the wrong pond, basically.

Exactly.

So. So I know you recently got married. So did you date for a lot? Because that seems like you came out in 2007, you said.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the. The catalyst that was like three to four years with a little pause in the middle. And then after that, I was single for a year, and I just raised my kiddo and hung out with friends. Right. Experienced living by myself because I really did move from, like, my mom's into getting married. So I was like, I don't know how to do anything, and I don't know. And, you know, people pleasers. A lot of time, we don't know what we like. We don't make decisions for ourselves. So it was the first time doing that. And just. I kind of miss. Feel like I missed out on, like, those college years because I was married and would just go to work and school and straight back home.

Yeah, I miss the college years, too. Yeah. Yeah.

That's another. That's another idea where I'm like, how do we create a retreat? That is.

I just did. Yeah. You know, I have. I have a question for you, because you keep bringing up the word people pleaser. Can you define that for me? And both of us keep saying, oh, yeah, we're all people pleasers. We're all people. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. So some commonalities that I see in my clients and, you know, and coming from myself, was struggling with boundaries. So being unable to say no without feeling a lot of guilt or sometimes some resentment because, you know, you don't have the time, the energy, and the money to do this thing. And yet you say yes.

I have the funniest story about that. My husband, ex husband, had cancer. And the PTO came to me and asked me to be the treasurer. The last thing I ever wanted to do was be a treasurer of anything. I'm not the money person. I mean, you should see how I balance my checkbook. That's not me. And I said yes. And I resented it. I was so pissed the whole time.

Yes.

And they did this, like, little investigation with me because they thought I was embezzling, and they found out is I was just buying everything at the local store and not going to Costco, you know, and then I said, you know, my husband does have cancer. And they were like, oh, yeah, you're why I took that on when he had cancer. I have no idea. But I did. And probably trying to avoid my feelings around it for sure, but I get that. So a lot of us take on responsibilities that we don't want. And if you have that feeling inside of being really pissed off about, then you maybe need not. You need to let go of that. I should have let go of the PTO disability, which was 20 years ago. A lot.

Yes. One of my clients, that was so freeing when she let go of PTO or pta, wherever you're from. Yeah. And she was like, oh, my gosh. And same thing with. She was like, I'm not gonna do Chris Christmas cards this year. I was like, yes, yes.

Oh, I stopped that a long time ago.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So how about some other things?

Avoiding conflict that we mentioned earlier? And. And also, if you're listening, think. Just thinking about, is that equal opportunity? Like, I avoid conflict with everybody or is it like, oh, my. Whoever I'm dating and my kids and my parents. So sometimes it's. And spouse people really thrive. Yeah. With spouse.

Yeah. Because I'm not a conflict avoider, so.

But.

But you made it a really good point because. Yeah, there's probably people that I don't avoid conflict. I mean, like, there's people that, like, I feel. I think for me, it's. The people that I feel safest with, I'm willing to risk conflict with.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I. I used to think, like, why doesn't everyone avoid conflict? Come on. Like, this should be an easy answer. And I think the. What it actually is is, can I have some healthy communication? And people pleasers usually don't have that right. We have a lot of fear. People pleasers are praised for loyalty and always being there for everybody and people counting on them. So the idea of having to learn boundaries and possibly upset people when these are the Things that they're praised for. And now if I. They feel like it's. If they have boundaries, they're going to be selfish. So the just the fear of boundaries. Marissa Pier, are you familiar?

I'm not.

She did a wonderful reframe that I've latched onto for life. And it's changing things from hard. So when people are like, boundaries are so hard, it's unfamiliar. Right. Because unfamiliar we can change to familiar with practice and seeing that. Yeah. It's not that it's hard and it has to be hard forever. Once you practice whatever skill it is, it gets to be easier.

I love that.

Yeah.

We just did in the group coaching I do. We just did boundaries for about three weeks. And people like just drank it in because they haven't. They've never been told it's okay to say no before. I have a funny story. I worked in hospice for seven years and I had a. If you want to see a bunch of codependent people, go work, go see hospice. And anyway, lovely, lovely human beings, truly lovely human beings. But one of my roles is the chaplain was to give the inspiration each morning. And I'll never forget the hospice director when I said, this is what I said, no is an anointed word. And it flipped because I basically told her and toy staff that it was okay to say no when they're asking them to work 24 hours, 24 hour shift. And I'll never forget that. But no is an anointed word. That's beautiful question for you too. So how is codependency in people pleasing related? And how is it not related? Does people really struggle? I remember the first time one of my. When I was becoming a chaplain, my CPE supervisor, which is clinical pastoral education to said to me, oh, you're codependent like that. And I was like so offended because at that time I understood that I was codependent to the alcohol that my father consumed way too much of in my childhood. But can you help me under. And maybe our guests under. I mean, excuse me, our listeners understand, like where are codependency and people pleasing the same and how are they different?

Yeah, that's a great question and sometimes one that I even still struggle with. And I think I do lean more towards people pleasing. And I feel like codependent is more clinical.

I find that a lot of times people who've had any relationship with alcohol in an unhealthy way and not as an active user, but somebody who's been affected by it, my clients have found Enormous, enormous help in Al Anon. They really have, like, they. It's really helped them tremendously. Yeah, yeah. And so I have found that a lot of us in the later in life community often come from chaotic homes. And we do. We are. And we're also. We become caregivers way too young. So we're used to taking care of the adults in our life and sometimes our friends and family, you know, other people as well. And so it's almost very difficult to let go of that role.

Yeah.

You know, like, I'm going to take care of anybody, everybody, because we're so used to doing it. And when we start taking care of ourselves, our people don't like it. And so what do we have to. Yeah, we have to make them come. Become familiar with the fact that mom or my wife is going to start taking care of herself.

Yeah. And there's. And they do tend to adjust.

So I've seen you got married and you were single for a while and you recently got married. Right? Is that within the last couple years?

Yeah. So November will actually be 13 years we've been together. Oh, wow.

So you've been together a long time.

Yeah, we did the babies. It was for my brother's family, so twins and then another one we bought and built a house. So we did everything but just kind of of out of order. And we were just enjoying everything. We didn't feel pressured. Like we had some. Her brother was like, what, are y'all gonna get married? And we just, we just kept traveling and doing that stuff. So she did propose in 2021. And I wasn't expecting it just because everything was just fine. I do remember when gay marriage was becoming legalized and it wasn't in Texas yet. And I'm like, I guess we gotta go to Hawaii. Oh, no. So that's what we did. So back in April, we went to Hawaii. So the, the people pleaser dream of. I did not people please anybody. I didn't. We didn't invite anybody. It was just the two of us. Oh, I love the way. Right. Didn't have to plan for people's arrival and everything. Or we ordered our outfits off of the Internet and came in the mail and we crossed our fingers that they would work. And then when we came back, we have like a little party.

Oh, that's lovely.

Yeah. And it was. Sam knows me well and she knows I am not a dancer. And she. So she booked this amazing Airbnb that just had like this 200 foot slide and games. And so it was just Food and games and taking pictures.

Oh, how much fun. How much blast. No, I'm going to have to give you a demerit on your lesbian card because you do not like to dance. So, Annie, I'm going to take it to bed. Okay. We've got to get going. So tell me, did you have a coming out song?

I. I did not, but when I was a teacher and. And I listened to it again the other day and it's. It's in my. My Mood shifter playlist. Right. If people. People need a mood shifter playlist of. Of their songs.

That's fun.

Lift them Up Brave by Sarah Burlesque.

Oh, I love that. She wrote that for someone coming out, you know.

Did she?

Yeah, I saw her.

If you go back and listen to it, you're like, this is perfect.

And I saw her at Girls Wanna Weekend with Brandi Carlisle. She was there two years ago and she told the story. She wrote it for a guy friend of hers that was coming out. And when I was coming out, that was a real popular song. I don't know if it had. I don't know when it was published or put out, but a lot of the people that I came out with at the same time, they really love that. That's a great song.

You go back.

I love that. I'm gonna do a mood shifter too. That's a good.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I have a whole series of first graders that's. That have been raised on that song. So hopefully it empowers them with whatever their decisions are.

Well, and it also empowers people our age too, because, you know, I mean, there's so many great songs coming out. Songs I really love. This is me from Barnum.

Yes.

And I love. My daughter actually sent me theirs on YouTube where they're in rehearsal and oh my God, I still watch it and cry. It's a great song. Oh, is there a book or a movie that really changed your perspective in life?

The book. Book that I talk to my clients about all the time is the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Yep. I love that.

I was like, these are the things that some people in my life that don't want, that are not in a place where they want to grow, that they're struggling with. So it was like. I feel like it was almost like a people pleasers manual of. Hey, impeccable with your word. Word.

Okay. Help. Help me remember. Be impeccable with your word.

Yeah. What's happening?

We will write those down in the liner notes.

Oh, my gosh. Don't make assumptions. Yep, don't make assumptions is the third one. And then always do your best.

Well, it's like when I. So when I talk to. About, like. So my background is in grief work. I did a lot of grief work. I talk about. I sort of view sometimes. I mean, you may disagree or just when people open up their marriages when one of the people is coming out. I akin it to bargaining in the grief process.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And. And so. But when I have to go name the five, which is outdated and not, you know, and I. And I really put it in the context in which it was studied by Elizabeth Kubler Ross, which was Undying people.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And so I put it in that context. And in a way, we are dying to a sense of self. And so I feel it's really appropriate for the later in life people. So. But I'll go to name but.

And I'm like, yes, but I. I totally see that in my clients. Like, the husband's just cycling through that and like. And them. It can be confusing because they'll. They've learned enough where they might start with acceptance and then they go to bargaining and denial and anger, like, later on. So it can.

It can start and just like. I mean, there's no path. There's no rhyme or reason to grieve. It just. You may have, you know, like, it's about your queerness. You may have total, like. So for a lot of people, there will be weeks, months, or. Excuse me, days, weeks or months where they're like, yeah, I'm gay. I'm perfectly gay. I'm totally gay. And then all of a sudden they'll be like, may, maybe I'm not gay. You know, and honestly, occasionally that still crosses my mind. And then very quickly I go, oh, honey, you're not straight. You've been in a relationship with a woman for eight years. You're definitely not straight. You know, so. Okay, so how would you describe your life today?

I would describe it as in flow.

I love that.

It is. It is just flowing. We've. We've been really intentional, you know, even going back to the book the Four Agreements. It's one that I read with my kiddo at night. I was like, you've gotta sink these in now while you're young. And she's such a confident, able to speak up for herself and advocate, like, so amazing. So just flow. It's just beautiful. My kiddo's about to graduate, and then my wife and I, we both work from home, so we're just going to start travel, traveling around and working from wherever we are. So it's just, it just keeps getting better.

I know. That's so exciting. Annie, I just want to tell you how much I admire you and how much I admire all the content you put out there. I'm going to have to follow you on TikTok now because I didn't know you were come hang out. Well, TikTok is like, it's sort of the bane of my social media existence but I'll grudgingly go over this.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know it's for you.

Yeah, I know. I, you know, I do love all the young masks on there that are very beautiful because I get their content too and I like that.

Right. It's a great way to, to just see, see the variety and just how everyone's different and how they're showing up and there's so much beautiful things happening over on TikTok. I go live at 3pm Central Monday through Friday. So if you ever want to hop on and, and share your awesomeness, I would love.

Oh, I would love to. And I didn't ask you that question. Where can people find you?

Ah, so my site is Annie M. Henderson. I, I've tried to be, stick to that. So I have my name Annie M. Henderson. TikTok I believe is also Annie M. Henderson. YouTube Annie M. Henderson. So it's Amazon Annie M. Henderson. So that's. Yeah, that's what it is. But I had, you had read in my bio something about, about my, my latest certification which I'm just.

What is, what is RIM? R I M RIM.

It stands for Regenerating Images and Memory. Dr. Deb Sandella, if you, if anyone wants to look up riminstitute.com but it's a closed eye experience for emotional processing. It is and I've been doing it all year. About to be done with that intergenerational certification and just the RIM in general. But it's beautiful, deep work and it's. Anyways, if you Annemarie, ever want to hop on and have a session for free, just I would love to see what you think about it.

I would love to do it. And I was like I've never heard of it before. So I was like I didn't know whether it's pronounced RIM or R I M, you know. So I know about generational healing and stuff. But I would love to, I would love to. Like I'm always open to new modalities.

Oh for sure.

And also too, as an old per like, I have been, like, therapy up my ass. So it's been 20 years of going in therapy, so now I'm really looking for alternative modalities.

Oh, for sure.

And I really, I've. I started working with the Somatic therapist, but she moved. She had a baby and moved. So now I have to find somebody else. And so I really want to do that work because I do know that, you know, a lot of trauma exists in my body. And so. And so I'm really curious about that. So I'll be looking you up, girl.

Yay.

It was wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much, Annie. I really appreciate your time today, and I appreciate all the amazing work you're doing. Thank you.

Thank you. You're fantastic.

You've been listening to Coming out and Beyond LGBTQIA stories with Annemarie Zanzel. New episodes of the Coming out and beyond podcast drop every other Friday. You can tune in at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and@annemariezandel.com Be sure to hit subscribe when tuning in so you never miss an episode. And for more resources, articles, videos, and a free downloadable guide for coming out later in life, visit annmariezanzel.com.