TEITR 405 - PIPA Investor Sentiment Survey (Edit)

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[00:00:00] Veronica: In this episode, we explore the sharp shifts reveal in the latest Pippa property investor sentiment survey. Investors are selling out of some markets whilst buying into others. [00:00:10] Reshaping the nature of Australia's rental supply in high cost cities. The exit of long-term investors means fewer family homes are available for rent, even as tenants face escalating competition for [00:00:20] stock.

[00:00:21] Veronica: And at the same time, the survey shows. Strange duality. Nearly 60% of investors still believe that now is a good time to buy, suggesting a fragile optimism [00:00:30] beneath the pressures of rising costs and a regulatory uncertainty. And while the data reflects the voices of existing investors, I, investor lending is on the rise.

[00:00:39] Veronica: Raising [00:00:40] questions about how newer entrants may be thinking differently about property risk and opportunity.

[00:00:46] ​

[00:01:24] Veronica: Our guest today is Lachlan Vidler the chair of the Property Investment Professionals of Australia pIPA [00:01:30] the Peak Body advocating for higher standards

[00:01:32] Veronica: and transparency across the property investment industry with direct insight into investor behavior and sentiment.

[00:01:38] Veronica: Nationwide is uniquely [00:01:40] placed to explain the pressures driving investors out of the market and what that means for Australia's rental future. Welcome, Lachlan. Great to see you. You are new in the role, [00:01:50] so is your first time in the hot seat.

[00:01:51] Lachlan Vidler: Veronica, Chris, thank you for having me. Very excited for this chat.

[00:01:55] Chris: Like I said just before I press record mate, these are some of our most popular episodes 'cause [00:02:00] um, there's some good conversations. No pressure on, really what we've sort of seen in the last couple years. I think we did it with Nicola and really the dismantling or sort of the restructure or [00:02:10] reshaping of our rental market.

[00:02:11] Chris: And, um, yeah, what's your sort of take on that?

[00:02:14] Lachlan Vidler: I think you're definitely right. I think there's definitely a bit of a restructure going on, which is that I think that as a society. [00:02:20] That great Australian dream of owning your own home and being able to have that at an age where you know your family can enjoy that for a [00:02:30] considerable, amount of time, and you're not just buying it when you're in your fifties or your sixties.

[00:02:33] Lachlan Vidler: I think that is slowly starting to slip away for a lot of people. And,by the effect of that, that means that people are [00:02:40] renting for longer and maybe in places that they don't even want to rent. we obviously have the idea of rent vesting where. you rent where you wanna live and a lot can do that, but for a lot of people, affordability is [00:02:50] becoming a real, real issue.

[00:02:51] Lachlan Vidler: And we have an affordability crisis from a home values point of view. But I think that we're certainly shaping up to be, entering the conversation of a rental affordability [00:03:00] crisis as well, more so than ever before.

[00:03:01] Veronica: and part of that is caused by investors selling out, and that's through the serv or survey results show that in certain areas in particular, there's [00:03:10] been quite a lot of investors selling out. We'll get into that in a moment, but what do you think is the single biggest factor pushing investors out of the market right now?

[00:03:17] Lachlan Vidler: Well, I mean, according to the survey, the [00:03:20] top reason that people have sold, not looking at selling, but have actually sold the top reason was debt reduction. that was the top reason we were sitting at about just outta 42% for debt [00:03:30] reduction. And I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we've just moved through,of the.

[00:03:34] Lachlan Vidler: Biggest, increases in the cash rate and by effect interest rates probably in, anybody's [00:03:40] memory. and that, you know, a lot of people were able to stay the course and I think that they probably did as much as they could to keep properties under their ownership. But now, you know, I'm sure [00:03:50] that that bite.

[00:03:51] Lachlan Vidler: Right. That bite is there and obviously the mortgage is the most expensive thing for most people. But if we go back to the survey, then the two next most common reasons [00:04:00] were rising holding and compliance costs, and then increased land tax and government charges. And I think that that's quite telling, which is [00:04:10] that, you know, for a lot of investors.

[00:04:12] Lachlan Vidler: and I have spoken about this,with somebody else, I think that there's a bit of a loss of autonomy. And that loss of autonomy is not just about control, but it's, it's a loss of autonomy [00:04:20] that's also adding into genuine increased costs that they have no control over. You know, they can't go, you know, your insurance is too high, go look for another provider, [00:04:30] right?

[00:04:30] Lachlan Vidler: But if your council raise bill's too high, you can't just pick up your house and move it to a different LGA and get a different rates bill.

[00:04:36] Lachlan Vidler:

[00:04:36] Lachlan Vidler: I think that there's a lot to be had in this conversation around that.

[00:04:39] Chris: I think the [00:04:40] reducing debts in interesting 'cause that's like. It's kind of like the space we are in, right? And when we see a lot of people in their portfolios and, I think there was definitely a desire not just on their investment properties, the holding costs. rents have [00:04:50] gone up, maybe their rents haven't gone up, you know, there's always a lag.

[00:04:52] Chris: And some properties have gone up a lot more than others. And like you say, other costs have gone up. And so. It's been tough, right? And particularly if they're recent [00:05:00] investors and they haven't bought them, you know, five, 10 years ago and with a much lower debt, to what they're worth today. but I think the other thing that's really been missed is just the pressure to pay their, their current [00:05:10] mortgage, right?

[00:05:10] Chris: So it's the, you know, when you're paying 6% on your home and you're paying all these, you know, what do you choose? Do you. Home or do you choose holding onto the investment property? and you know, they have been [00:05:20] able to sell, you know, for reasonable prices.

[00:05:22] Chris: So while the holding costs have gone up, the capital values have often a lot of investors have ACT investments have actually gone up. So there's also a [00:05:30] desire to potentially just take some money off the table.

[00:05:33] Lachlan Vidler: Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you, Chris. I think there's definitely a common sense approach to that, which is that capital values have increased quite [00:05:40] significantly over the last five years alone, let alone when you look at the investors who have held for 10 or greater years as they're holding period.

[00:05:47] Lachlan Vidler: And maybe there is a bit of take, wanting to take those winnings off the [00:05:50] table. so I think, yeah, like you said,I definitely agree with that as something that is a factor in this. But I think interestingly. you mentioned the costs and the fact that like the costs have gone up, but also their, [00:06:00] equity stake has gone up in the property as well, naturally.

[00:06:02] Lachlan Vidler: I find it really interesting though, because. that's great. At the end of the life of a property, right? You sell it, you get those winnings. But as you're going through, you could [00:06:10] obviously draw, you could draw equity down if you really wanted to, if you needed a bit of quick access to it, assuming you can afford it, but you've still gotta live day to day with the cost of that property.

[00:06:18] Lachlan Vidler: And through the [00:06:20] survey, we've seen that despite obviously quite a rapid increase in the operational costs of properties, 65% of respondents have said that they've passed [00:06:30] on. 10% or less of this operational cost increase to their tenants. So the reality is that even though property investors are often demonized and demonized pretty strongly by [00:06:40] a lot of mainstream media, not the bad guys.

[00:06:42] Lachlan Vidler: they're often just, you know, mom and dad investors, and they're copy it. They're copying the cost of these properties.

[00:06:48] Veronica: And this is something that we've spoken [00:06:50] about many times on the podcast and the reality is that it's not as simple as, well Costco up, so therefore I'm gonna put rent up. You know, obviously as an investor, if you could, you would. let's face it, you know, I'd like to cover my cost, [00:07:00] thanks, my increased costs.

[00:07:01] Veronica: the simple fact is that you can only put up rents as much as the market will bear and what is, you know, fair market value. I think it's interesting too because you can see [00:07:10] that the reasons for selling can vary widely. Like if you look in Melbourne, for example, those costs are. Big factor in selling, and it is, it's all about pain.

[00:07:19] Veronica: [00:07:20] Whereas in Brisbane, yes, their costs may have gone up, but it's also, it's all about gain because you know, in Brisbane, particularly if you had an apartment, you might've sat on negative equity [00:07:30] for a decade, or at least no gain or very little gain, and then all of a sudden you get these rapid increases in values.

[00:07:36] Veronica: That's happened in the Brisbane. At the Brisbane market in particular apartments. [00:07:40] So I guess, what does this say about the short term thinking of property investors? That they're reacting so much to the costs of owning ownership.

[00:07:49] Lachlan Vidler: I like where you're going [00:07:50] with this question, Veronica. I think that what it says is, There's a real difference in the psyche of people depending on the state that they own. And I think that that's [00:08:00] really, really pronounced. But when we actually go to the survey and we look at what some of the responses were, and we didn't break this down, like state by state or anything like that, so we don't have, we didn't take it down to that [00:08:10] level of fidelity, but when we look at what.

[00:08:12] Lachlan Vidler: Respondents said in terms of their future selling intentions. I think it links in really well to what you're asking, because when we look at it, [00:08:20] irrespective of where people do own or where they don't own, 51.3% of respondents said if they were going to sell in the near term future, the reason why they would do [00:08:30] that was it would be because of federal reforms.

[00:08:32] Lachlan Vidler: And then federal reforms, 51.3%, one in two respondents, we had almost 900 people respond, [00:08:40] and almost one in two said

[00:08:41] Lachlan Vidler: federal that's, we are talking tax.

[00:08:43] Lachlan Vidler: Well, and we didn't go down into, whether or not that would be negative gearing specifically, but realistically, [00:08:50] what are the biggest things that we're looking at? Well, it's been the negative gearing debate, and then it's also been the changes to super.

[00:08:55] Lachlan Vidler: They're the two biggest things that have been on the cards when it comes to federal reforms. Right. But then [00:09:00] when you go down one step further, Fit. So that was 51.3%, 49.8. So we're talking like a very small percentage difference here. [00:09:10] 49.8 cited compliance costs as their next biggest reason why they would sell in the future.

[00:09:15] Lachlan Vidler: And then the third biggest reason was land tax and government charges, and that was [00:09:20] the same percent as compliance. And then to round out the top five, we have rental caps and freezers and tenancy legislation. So. I guess off the back of your question [00:09:30] about pain and gain and all the rest. When I look at a list like that, and that was why I said it before, I look at it as investors are really not liking the lack of autonomy.

[00:09:38] Lachlan Vidler: And whilst you get the [00:09:40] gains in Brisbane and people wanna take that off the table, and we talk about debt reduction, that makes a lot of sense. And Melbourne is about pain. Well, Melbourne's about pain because autonomy's been taken from [00:09:50] Victoria more than any other state.

[00:09:52] Chris: But then you would think that the investment numbers in Victoria would be really low, right? so the last two months on your two years on [00:10:00] your report, Victoria's named the least accommodating state, right? I get it. There's been lots of changes, tenants, ax to et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But then if you look at where [00:10:10] investors are going to the market, 24%, have bought in Victoria in the last 12 months.

[00:10:15] Chris: and if you think about where they're probably the most positive about at the moment is Victoria. So yeah, they care about [00:10:20] tax. They don't wanna be paying all these things, but they're also overlooking that and saying, I think this is still where I'm gonna get the best returns as an investors.

[00:10:27] Chris: So how do we sort of think

[00:10:28] Veronica: Do you know we square [00:10:30] that circle.

[00:10:31] Lachlan Vidler: I, and you know what? My best answer, and this probably doesn't come from the survey, my best answer for that is that, investors, if you think about it, investors have [00:10:40] really delayed being in Victoria since about 2021. When those, some of those. Form starter, and it started with some of that tenancy stuff.

[00:10:46] Lachlan Vidler: And don't get me wrong, obviously, and I think the two of you'll probably agree, [00:10:50] Certain tenancy reform is very important, right? We don't want people living in homes that don't have heating. We don't want people living in homes that are a shack, right? But obviously as part of that, there's also been other things that have [00:11:00] happened that have reduced things like autonomy.

[00:11:02] Lachlan Vidler: So my best answer that I can give to that is that people have held off from Victoria for three to four years and we now look, and it is the last [00:11:10] really affordable capital city market. If we exclude Darwin, really that hasn't had much performance and is the second biggest. City in Australia, being Melbourne [00:11:20] and obviously second big, I'm pretty sure Victoria's second biggest state from population.

[00:11:24] Lachlan Vidler: And now it's like, well, you know what, we just have to overlook it exactly like you said, Chris. Like we, we have no choice and also like it's that [00:11:30] affordability aspect. Like people can only borrow as much as they can borrow. So now, you know, you sort of move into that conversation. And as a side piece, I did a bit of social media film with myself this morning and there [00:11:40] was an article by REA.

[00:11:41] Lachlan Vidler: from prop track, obviously their data arm, and it said that there was only 73 suburbs around the country in capital cities that had a medium price, 600 k or [00:11:50] lower. And I think it really just really keeps rounding out that kind of conversation about capital city affordability or just general market affordability and ultimately despite [00:12:00] costs.

[00:12:00] Lachlan Vidler: If that's all that's left, that's all people can do.

[00:12:02] Chris: Mm.when I've thought about this last two years is and I just can watch it. I think it's a, you know, a train crash basically. [00:12:10] We've seen. investor after investors selling, which these reports keep coming out. I think if next year you're gonna see the same thing.

[00:12:15] Chris: for lots of reasons. and long-term investors, they're typically more maybe in the [00:12:20] city, capital cities are bailing and you've got a first time buyer boom, right? That every time an investor sells that a lot of investors will probably take advantage of this as well, right? Like, why wouldn't you, [00:12:30] you know, if you could sell your. Apartment in Sydney for, I know I said houses before, let's say was apartment worth a million? Now it's next year. It's worth 1.3 because the first time buyer, boom, a lot of investors will probably be the ones who [00:12:40] sell. But the new investors, just because of the, this belief with buyer's agency, and investment specialist buyer agencies going to regional areas, [00:12:50] and also budget because of, what they can borrow from banks and what they can afford due to their current mortgage are shifting to regions.

[00:12:57] Chris: And that shift doesn't, isn't a big deal if it goes on for [00:13:00] one year, but if it goes on for five years, that's a lot of rental supply that we're gonna lose in our capital cities. and it's never a case of every first time buyer was renting. that's just [00:13:10] not the case. that to me is a quite concerning 'cause, you know, rents have gone up and it's already very expensive to live in our capital cities.

[00:13:16] Veronica: but I can't, besides Victoria. where they're probably gonna be buying a lot of houses [00:13:20] in the fringes. Let's be real, like they're not gonna buy the apartment market down there. there's been some of those buyer's agents spruiking, the one bedroom apartments in Melbourne. Such great investment opportunities. Haven't you [00:13:30] seen those all over Instagram?

[00:13:31] Lachlan Vidler: studios and one betters

[00:13:32] Lachlan Vidler: going for a couple hundred thousand. Yeah.

[00:13:34] Veronica: Anyway, that sort of slight

[00:13:36] Chris: What, what do you think Lachlan? I mean, you've, um, helped a lot of investors, right? And, [00:13:40] that's not to say that's what you're doing, but it's just there is an impact here. and. I do think there's also an impact here when the investors bail, right?

[00:13:47] Chris: 'cause they're not long-term investors, right? A lot of the old [00:13:50] terms, I'll buy one property, I'll hold it, these are speculating type of, I'll get in and if the returns aren't there, I'll shift somewhere else. 'cause I'm location agnostic,

[00:13:58] Chris: this is my mentality. I'm a [00:14:00] borderless investor. So they go and buy in a Adelaide or a Perth or wherever it might be.

[00:14:04] Chris: That's not saying it's the wrong thing, but at some point they're going, oh, I'd rather buy a house in Sydney now for myself. Or I'd rather buy an investment [00:14:10] property in Melbourne. They dump that property that creates an oversupply of properties and then they go to Melbourne Market. that's also not great for our rental market because you haven't got this stability of rental supply.

[00:14:19] Chris: do you [00:14:20] think of all that?

[00:14:20] Lachlan Vidler: Where do I start? what I think of all that. I mean, I don't think anything that you're saying are unreasonable thoughts that we need to be thinking about and I think that ultimately. one of [00:14:30] the biggest things that, that I think we always need to keep coming back to, which is that structurally in Australia we have a real problem with housing supply, and that's across all areas.

[00:14:37] Lachlan Vidler: It doesn't matter whether you're in a regional city or [00:14:40] you're in a capital city. We have a real genuine issue of supply and for some cities that can't be solved too easily without building up because there's no more land going, either left, [00:14:50] right, or up and down. Right? So I think that when it comes to what, Might need to be focusing on. At the end of the day, if we can bring up more supply, it will also temper house [00:15:00] prices. It will also stop speculative investment to a degree because we're not gonna see these crazy 20, 30, 40% increases in a year because there is just such a [00:15:10] shortage of properties going into, or, sorry, properties available.

[00:15:13] Lachlan Vidler: In a certain market. So when a large group of people,go into it, that it then has a really, disproportionate [00:15:20] shift in the performance of whatever that market is. So for me, the way that I think about it is to solve a bit of the speculative investing side. Obviously we can talk about things like regulation, all the rest, and that [00:15:30] is a genuine and important part of the conversation.

[00:15:32] Lachlan Vidler: But I think that we need to also not look at band-aids, like stopping people who do the wrong thing, because that will always happen that's why we have jails. That's why we have a police force and all the rest, [00:15:40] right? You can never stop bad operators in anything of any variety. But solving the true issue at its core, which is the housing supply issue, I [00:15:50] think is critical to probably stopping some of that speculative investment as well.

[00:15:53] Veronica: I actually not sure I agree with you, Lachlan and the reason I say that is because if you look, say, just look at Melbourne, Melbourne has [00:16:00] been well known to have ever oversupply of apartments for well over a decade now. And if you look at the last boom that Melbourne had, which is the same time Sydney had a boom.

[00:16:09] Veronica: In the, [00:16:10] 2012, 2017 sort of area over that period of time, there was something like upwards of 50% of resales on new apartments in that [00:16:20] period of time sold at a loss. So while the rest of the market is booming, you've got a two speed economy effectively in the property space. And so I don't think that [00:16:30] necessarily the same.

[00:16:31] Veronica: buyers who rushing into regional areas on the say so of data driven buyer agents are gonna be going and buying all that new stock. You know, I think that, that [00:16:40] it's quite possible for all of these markets to operate in their own speeds because they're all driven by different things.

[00:16:46] Veronica: so I think suppliers one issue it's a, an [00:16:50] interesting one because it's quite political. It's very positive for every politician to come out and say, let's, let's talk about supply. 'cause that's all stimulatory and we can actually give first time buyers incentives [00:17:00] and investors get better incentives for buying brand new, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:17:04] Veronica: But the evidence shows that all of those buyers are actually worse off. when I say all, not all, a lot of [00:17:10] the, a higher proportion of those buyers are worse off, say five, 10 years than they would've been if they bought existing stock. and also the last time we had those booms, we didn't have the buyer'ss agents buying on mass.

[00:17:18] Veronica: We didn't have the data [00:17:20] driven, volume of buyer's agents that we have now. So, I, I, I'm not really sure that supply's gonna solve that problem. what is interesting though, you're talking about the struggle or the dire [00:17:30] shortage of rental, stock. The survey shows only 42% of the sole properties actually stayed in the rental pool.

[00:17:37] Veronica: And so we talked earlier about a shift where [00:17:40] is a lot of established, and particularly if you're looking in Melbourne, a lot of established long-term owners have also sold out after being in the market for a very long time. They would've had [00:17:50] homes, the houses as opposed to apartments and so that's a structural shift because you know, you've got a lot of.

[00:17:55] Veronica: Is buying back into the market from interstate, but are they buying the same stock [00:18:00] that's been sold? You know, are they're buying different stock? so that's, well, you know, they're buying on the outskirts versus on the inner, in a inner ring. So there is a real structural [00:18:10] shift. And what do you think that's gonna mean long term for tenants?

[00:18:13] Lachlan Vidler: Well, I think again, it's,it creates very difficult conditions ultimately because let's just call a spade a spade. [00:18:20] Supply and demand. That's all it comes down to. And if there is less supply. Like our demand side of that equation is not getting any better. Like I think the most recent stats around net overseas migration, I don't think they've won't [00:18:30] have done the 24 25 yet, but they've done 23, 24, we had 446,000 net overseas migrants.

[00:18:36] Lachlan Vidler: Right. And I'm certainly not now about to say, okay, well we [00:18:40] stopped migration. Absolutely not. Migrants are super important and critical. To, the development of Australia's economy, business, society as a whole, culturally [00:18:50] that they bring so much into it, but when we've got huge numbers of people coming into the country, they can't necessarily buy as soon as they get here.

[00:18:57] Lachlan Vidler: So where do they go? Well, they go and rent right, [00:19:00] naturally, because that's all that they can do. So that's going to then go and suck. Supply, right? So when we're talking about a structural shift, it's again, to me, this whole [00:19:10] conversation always comes so much in part to supply and demand because the demand side, as Australia's population continues to grow, whether it's from net overseas migration, [00:19:20] whether it's the natural birth rate, whether it's, homes becoming smaller in size.

[00:19:24] Lachlan Vidler: We obviously saw an increase over COVID because people wanted to move back in and be around families. But now, [00:19:30] especially with cost of living,does it go back up? Does it continue to split? Who knows? We'll see what happens, but we are not keeping up with the pace of, properties required.

[00:19:39] Lachlan Vidler: And then the [00:19:40] survey, I think just helps to really reinforce that, like you said, Veronica, 42% of sold properties remaining in the pool. That means that we're almost dealing with three in every five [00:19:50] properties are not. So

[00:19:52] Lachlan Vidler: what happens?

[00:19:52] Veronica: well, the, the household formation is different. You know, an owner occupied home has on average less people living in it than a rental [00:20:00] property. So, you know, I think that's one of the things that isn't often mentioned, in the context of this. 'cause, Chris mentioned it earlier, it's not like every sale to an owner occupier takes a rental, a [00:20:10] renter out the market.

[00:20:10] Veronica: It doesn't actually work that way. So it does create more pressure on the rental market.

[00:20:14] Chris: Yeah, and I think I, I'm sort of just thinking through as well, like if you go back to [00:20:20] 2015, you could borrow a lot more to buy investment properties. You know, I'll be a rent investor. It's so easy to rent, particularly in a place like Melbourne, but even Sydney, I can rent wherever I want.

[00:20:27] Chris: I'll always be able to rent. there's just always [00:20:30] choice. rentals was pretty like, rental growth, price growth was, pretty stable, right? so there was this sort of, this belief that I'd just be able to always rent. But I think of that sort of veil has [00:20:40] been lifted the last few years just because a rents have gone up.

[00:20:43] Chris: Maybe they've been kicked out of a home, they've had to move. they're starting to progress in their life. Kids schooling, you know, this [00:20:50] sort of,this belief that you could just, you know, rent vest. so then if you can't rent vest, then you gotta go, well, I need to buy a home. So then you're basically creating home demand and you're getting, gonna [00:21:00] create less investment stock.

[00:21:02] Chris: Right? And then on top of that, if you then also, made some changes with negative gearing or capital gains tax, you're only really compounding a problem that's already. a massive [00:21:10] problem, right? So you just put funneling everyone access to super for home. So you know, you're really creating in a capital city, it's just this real, lack of [00:21:20] rental, stock, which is then creating a bigger rental crisis, which is creating even more desire to own.

[00:21:24] Chris: And so, how do you sort of, you know, manage that sort of rent vesting challenge, because.

[00:21:29] Chris: a lot of people aren't [00:21:30] able to sort of pull it off, I believe, as confidently as they were say, three or four years ago.

[00:21:34] Lachlan Vidler: Yeah, Yeah, I agree. And I, and you mentioned like negative gearing, for example, I want to throw another stat out from the survey here. [00:21:40] 53% said they would stop investing if negative gearing was altered. So it wasn't even removed. It was altered. 53% would stop, and [00:21:50] then 35% would exit if CGT reduced down to 25% after one year.

[00:21:56] Lachlan Vidler: Right. So. the sentiment side of some of these reforms and [00:22:00] changes is also from my point of view, not helping. Some of the conversations you're talking about, Chris, because I'll be honest, I don't really have an answer. I don't have an answer to it because I think that the issue [00:22:10] has come about because it has compounded year after year for a significant period of time with so many different viewpoints on how it has got here from supply issues to migration issues.

[00:22:19] Lachlan Vidler: [00:22:20] To, you know, industry issues even down to the government right. and regulation and, and all the rest. I'll be the first one to sit here and say, I actually don't really know how to solve it, because I think there are [00:22:30] a lot of problems and solving one to me is not gonna fix all the rest

[00:22:34] Veronica: do you know? I actually think in a way our industry needs to have a different rhetoric. and so this [00:22:40] sort of occurred to me, recently in New South Wales. We've had, tenancy reform that's been rolled out now and it definitely has not been as,catastrophic, if you wanna call it that [00:22:50] as Victorian ancy reform.

[00:22:51] Veronica: And, and to be honest, I think they went way too far. I think New South Wales is actually workable. that said, I don't think any of our, government departments are considering. The [00:23:00] actual industry enough because the industry is what has to implement these changes. You know, the property managers are the ones that actually have to roll this stuff out and make it happen.

[00:23:08] Veronica: but however, there's a lot of [00:23:10] negativity around change. Right. And if they, if our office of Fair Trading, if our consumer affairs, if they're not actually managing this really well, they're just dumping it on the industry to roll it out, then they're relying. They're basically [00:23:20] leaving it to the industry to create a lot of negativity around it, around change.

[00:23:23] Veronica: you know, I was reading a forum on the REI New South Wales website, which property managers basically, hands up in the air, [00:23:30] this is gonna end up in, mass evacuation, mass sell ups, vest is gonna bail out of the market, blah, blah, blah. The way they did in Victoria. I don't think that's actually helpful.

[00:23:38] Veronica: I think the industry needs to be a [00:23:40] bit more responsible about that because if you are just contributing to the mass hysteria, then people are knee jerking and fundamentally, I'd say most investors aren't what I call [00:23:50] sophisticated investors. You know, you can see the knee jerking in terms of costs like.

[00:23:53] Veronica: the reality is, anyone who bought an investment property around when interest rates were at record lows around COVID, gotta realize your [00:24:00] costs are gonna go up at some point. Now I get that costs have come up from various angles. You know, insurance has gone up and building costs have gone up, maintenance has gone up and those sorts of things.

[00:24:07] Veronica: I get that. But you must [00:24:10] expect costs are going to go up. And I think a lot of property investors don't recognize that The first 10 years really is pretty tough. It's tough because of course your growth is incremental. Assuming you [00:24:20] bought a good asset At year 10, you can look back and go, actually has done really well. I've got great growth out of that and it's been a bit painful, but now I can look forward to even better growth in the next 10 years. And so I don't [00:24:30] think there's enough of that conversation going on with individual investors for them to understand that.

[00:24:35] Veronica: It's not gonna be a walk in the park. You're not just gonna buy a property. [00:24:40] And despite all those Instagram processes, instant equity uplift, and it's gonna continue, so how can we, as an industry have a more, I guess, a more mature [00:24:50] conversation around this so that investors recognize that this as long as they buy a good asset, this is, and they can afford the cash flow, that you gotta ride these things out rather than [00:25:00] knee jerking because interest rates go up or because there's some legislation that we don't really like.

[00:25:05] Lachlan Vidler: I think that there's kind of two parts to this, right? I think as an industry to our, [00:25:10] clients or our consumers, or whatever term you want to use, I think that that's where good businesses really thrive because they take their clients. On an [00:25:20] education journey as part of their service experience. And that helps to elevate that exact conversation that you're talking about.

[00:25:26] Lachlan Vidler: So people do understand that like, you're not gonna retire a property in 10 years. [00:25:30] it might take you 20 or 30 years. And even then that retirement. Might not be at Richard Branson level, it just might be at significantly more comfortable than, a couple on the pension. [00:25:40] Right? So I think that on one hand we've got that part, which is that businesses who do that I think will really thrive and it will create sticky clients.

[00:25:48] Lachlan Vidler: And it's almost like that [00:25:50] idea of giving to an extreme level before you take, right? If you give all that to. Client, even if it's outside of a service fee or it's an additional time burden on you, that should come back to you [00:26:00] in spades. Because when they then go and try somebody else or speak with somebody else who isn't operating like that, they will then see, oh wow, that person was actually exceptional at what they [00:26:10] do.

[00:26:10] Lachlan Vidler: I think that's one side. I think on the other side, the difficulty is that. Conversations with governments at all levels of all parties. It's not, I don't think it's really related to any one group, [00:26:20] anywhere, have become a lot more difficult and I think a lot in part because, a lot of political agendas have become about grandstanding and the only way to [00:26:30] get change through is to be, is to grandstand yourself.

[00:26:33] Lachlan Vidler: To get enough support or enough visibility on it that political parties are then taking [00:26:40] notice of, oh wow, maybe we didn't do this right. Because, you know, there are so many factional issues that go on right now. Bipartisanship is probably at some of its worst levels that we've ever seen, [00:26:50] and then that makes it really hard for us, let's say, as a property industry to go, let's not.

[00:26:55] Lachlan Vidler: Sound, a fire alarm about an issue that really doesn't need it. [00:27:00] Because if we do, if we just operate in a normal manner, we know that the government in power, whether that's federal or state or local, we know that we actually just have a great relationship. And [00:27:10] if we take them facts and figures and real information, they will listen.

[00:27:13] Lachlan Vidler: And I think that that's where we've gotten into a little bit of difficulty is that that real bipartisan open communication [00:27:20] isn't maybe as prevalent as it has been in previous times. So the only way to do things is. To pull a fire alarm, and I don't think that's right either. But again, these are really structural [00:27:30] issues that I'm not sure anyone has great solutions to right

[00:27:32] Speaker 2: I'm on a personal mission to help more people make better property decisions. You know, most people don't realize that they can cost themselves hundreds of [00:27:40] thousands of dollars over the medium to long term when they make property decisions without all of the information that they need. And what I do is help people with tricky real estate problems, which offer [00:27:50] masqueraders simple questions like, should I sell my investment property because the interest re payments are hurting, or should I buy before I sell?

[00:27:57] Speaker 2: Or the other way around. You could connect with [00:28:00] me and access all of the tools that I've created to help you make better property decisions at Veronica Morgan dot com au. And there you'll find resources for first home buyers, details [00:28:10] about my buyer's agent mentoring program. You could connect with my Sydney based property management and buyer's agency teams, Australia wide vendor advocacy.

[00:28:18] Speaker 2: Or ask me for introduction to the [00:28:20] small group of buyer agents that I would personally recommend across the country. That's Veronica Morgan dot com au. If you're considering a property moose, which is buying your first time, [00:28:30] upgrading, renovating, or investing, the team here at Alcove would love to help you think through your decision and get the finance right.

[00:28:36] Speaker 3: Please go to cove.com au to reach [00:28:40] out.

[00:28:40] Veronica: So your, your argument there is that really we have to,get emotional about it or emotive about it because otherwise our noise isn't gonna be heard above the noise of [00:28:50] other lobbyists who are getting emotional. I mean, I did go to an Office of Fair Trading, no, it was actually an REI, new South Wales,event, which was, prior to the introduction of the latest round of [00:29:00] tenancy reform here. And it was interesting because they had a representative there from the R-S-P-C-A who was argumentative. he got up there and he was actually belligerent. and I was shocked [00:29:10] actually at this fellow's conduct in a room full of property managers who then have to,Implement the changes and, and manage with landlords and [00:29:20] properties and multiple tenants and pets and the whole bit. it was really interesting and I just thought, I got a little tiny glimpse into, I guess, what the lobby lobbying efforts like. and I did for the first [00:29:30] time, feel a little bit sorry for the REI in New South Wales because they'd been saying for a while that they'd been, lobbying hard and it was hard work and I was like, oh.

[00:29:37] Veronica: Get over yourselves, stop whinging. But then I [00:29:40] saw, I got an in a little glimpse of that and I was pretty horrified actually. so I think that's an interesting take. And it's a shame though but at the same time, I think that as an industry, we are [00:29:50] creating a reaction amongst investors, existing investors, and I think we have a job to do to sort of calm the farm a little bit as well.

[00:29:58] Lachlan Vidler: and like I said,I don't [00:30:00] think it's right, you know, so I guess in principle, I a hundred percent agree with you. it's like just that classic situation of brinkmanship, right? Where you just. One person or party takes it to one level, and then the next party takes it [00:30:10] to another level and the next party takes it above that.

[00:30:12] Lachlan Vidler: And unfortunately, whenother, um, interest groups or other factors are at play and everyone is playing at a level, well above [00:30:20] where you are and you are trying to be the really calm one and the really, a measured response and all the rest, they're never gonna hear you, let alone see you because everyone else is screaming from the hill.

[00:30:28] Lachlan Vidler: And I do not think that's right [00:30:30] whatsoever. But, I guess that's where it's about. And I think we only have to look globally to see where other political bipartisan issues are going on as well. Where, how do we simmer it down? how [00:30:40] do we take it off the boil?

[00:30:41] Lachlan Vidler: Put it back to a simmer. Let every interest group, every lobbying group, whatever you wanna call them. Have their say, but do it in a respectful, calm manner so that everyone has a [00:30:50] fair go. And no one is actually out there saying, and we see it all the time with investors. Investors are bad, these people are bad.

[00:30:56] Lachlan Vidler: You are the wrong, you are wrong. Rather than going, you know what, I agree with [00:31:00] this. I disagree with that. I think you are right with this. And I think I'm right with that. And I think we have lost a little bit of that ability.

[00:31:06] Lachlan Vidler: What's your, um, thoughts on, you know, part of the report [00:31:10] is where have you sought property investment advice? Yeah.

[00:31:14] Chris: think the biggest there is actually mortgage brokers. so can't [00:31:20] possibly see anything wrong with that. another 40% is the accountant, so yeah, can't see anything wrong with that around their motivations around, I mean, [00:31:30] property educator, 9%, no formal qualifications, free service provider seven.

[00:31:35] Chris: So it's pretty. You know, it's diluted, right? Property investors, and obviously [00:31:40] some have done it themselves whilst of family and friend, et cetera. But these are probably more informed property investors I would say as well. because they're probably part of your survey and little bit more probably [00:31:50] thinking about, you wouldn't apply unless you were at least thinking about these sort of things.

[00:31:52] Chris: but I mean, yeah, accountants and mortgage brokers are basically driving property advice more than, the 40% that actually go to property [00:32:00] investment advisors.

[00:32:00] Lachlan Vidler: I think it really shows the industry though, doesn't it? and you know what? I didn't actually have a look prior. I'd be interested to see how that buy, like that buyer's agent advocate number has changed over time because I [00:32:10] think that, it is still obviously a very new aspect of the industry at the scale we're seeing it.

[00:32:14] Lachlan Vidler: Of course, people have been operating. For, quite a long time before it became a sexy profession to go [00:32:20] into. I'll have a look after this at what that looks like, but how it's changed. But I think it also goes to the core of where people feel trusted advice is coming from.

[00:32:28] Lachlan Vidler: Right? Like your accountant. They [00:32:30] manage your tax affairs. You've probably known them for a number of years. they understand where you are wanting to go to. Are they going to be the best to provide strategic property advice? Maybe, maybe not. I think it [00:32:40] depends on their qualifications and their experience.

[00:32:42] Lachlan Vidler: I think there's also something to be said for people staying in their lane with their expertise. And accountants are obvious accountants not property right. [00:32:50] But,they're probably filling in very good conversations around, financial slash tax advice.

[00:32:55] Lachlan Vidler: to me, what I look at when I see this is it's really become important to make sure you [00:33:00] understand. What the qualifications of your trusted advisor are because people are going and speaking to multiple people because we're not seeing [00:33:10] one group stands out at 80%, right? We're not saying a buyer's agent stands out at 80%.

[00:33:14] Lachlan Vidler: We're not seeing a broker stands out at 80%. So it stands to reason off these stats that most [00:33:20] people are speaking to at least two of the different people that are on this list, if not potentially more. So the way that I look at it is as I said, it's really important [00:33:30] for any consumer out there who is looking at being involved in property and utilizing professionals to have that conversation.

[00:33:37] Lachlan Vidler: what is your experience? What are your [00:33:40] qualifications? You know, can you do this for me or can you not? can you provide me tax advice? 'cause it sounds like you might be, Having that very frank, upfront conversation to understand where the left and [00:33:50] right of arc should be with your provider or advisor, so that then you can go and talk to different people who can fill in the gaps that that person [00:34:00] can't and also shouldn't be filling in.

[00:34:02] Veronica: well, that, that's quite interesting actually, because you know, if the respondents on average are, you know, referring to two [00:34:10] advisors and that's more heartening than if they were just referring to a broker or an accountant. I think. You know, holistic property advice is needed.

[00:34:17] Veronica: in my business, we are a proponent of holistic [00:34:20] property advice and we absolutely will. Our little antenna's got right. You do need tax advice so you need to have an accountant who specializes in property and tax. you do need to get financial advice as well [00:34:30] because property's not the only investment vehicle and we wanna make sure you're considering super and you're considering other things as well.

[00:34:35] Veronica: and you do need to get. Borrowing advice and pro borrowing strategy in place [00:34:40] because that's a scarce resource and you need to manage that properly. And potentially you need legal advice as well. particularly if you're gonna be looking at structures and you need property advice. So you sort of, there's really [00:34:50] five key advisors that you need if you really want to be having a, a.

[00:34:54] Veronica: Proper holistic, 360 degree view of your property decisions. So that is sort of heartening. [00:35:00] People are getting at least two, but sadly, I think when it comes to property, as we all know, it's unregulated. And so therefore having those advisors stick to their lane is very important because I [00:35:10] think it's really important to understand, particularly if you're going to a mortgage broker, and Chris, you can talk to these. It's free, right? Brokers don't charge for their advice typically. And [00:35:20] so there's probably a reason why the broker's, number one, they're property adjacent and many of them give advice and I've heard of it. I heard it as often awful. are your thoughts on that, [00:35:30] Chris?

[00:35:30] Chris: but without trying to throw the braking world under the bus, um, here, look, it is one of those things, they dunno what they don't know. and unfortunately, you know, clients are coming to them with, [00:35:40] plans to do things and as they go discuss those plans, whether they're buying a house, whether they're upgrading or buying an investment, et cetera.

[00:35:47] Chris: The conversation will come up. Where are you buying? [00:35:50] And I think this is where mortgage brokers get into trouble is they're trying to help customers. but unfortunately they dunno what they don't know. And because they haven't got [00:36:00] any invested in their knowledge to really understand the market, they're just basing their decision based on what their other clients have done.

[00:36:07] Chris: and they haven't probably even thought about that very deeply, if I'm [00:36:10] honest. They're just more focused around the debt side. There's enough things to think about there. And then they are start basically giving advice based on knowledge that is very limited and they start partnering with the wrong people.

[00:36:19] Chris: [00:36:20] And I think this is where it all falls down because we get hit. Daily. That's just, and that's not a of, Hey, can you send this client, can you send us clients? We're doing this, we're doing that. And, let alone, sometimes it's [00:36:30] financial incentives, where, if it's, particularly if it's new property and op plan.

[00:36:33] Chris: and if not, with the proliferation of buyer agents coming in the industry, they're all. Needing clients. So they're [00:36:40] all doing the same thing. They're all attacking the 20,000 brokers out there. And so I think this is where it goes wrong. The bro, the broker hasn't really got the understanding that it's not okay just to refer all their clients to one buyer's [00:36:50] agent.

[00:36:50] Chris: And they shouldn't just work with that one because they buy a lot off the plan. It's new and they're making money of kickbacks. So they just dunno what they dunno. They didn't purposely go in there thinking I'm gonna give the wrong [00:37:00] advice. and often they just build a partnership with someone and, you know, hopefully that'll be all right.

[00:37:04] Chris: it's just, I think buyer's agency thing takes a long time to get good at. I just think it's one

[00:37:08] Chris: of those jobs that you [00:37:10] can't just. Start with a phone, and a laptop and start making, purchases on property and have the knowledge. I think it just takes lots of [00:37:20] transactions and you need a really good mentoring program to, to bring these buyer's agents and then they get there, but that's just not the way it is.

[00:37:26] Chris: And so that's my problem with the Marks broker. They just dunno what they don't know. [00:37:30] And unfortunately what they should do is say, Hey look. I dunno, you should go and speak to Pippa or the Reba and go on your own journey. I'm not gonna start giving you [00:37:40] advice based on what I believe because it's often very limited.

[00:37:43] Lachlan Vidler: if I can just throw one thing at the end, I think that really speaks to. Staying in your lane. if you are a mortgage broker, [00:37:50] provide that mortgage broking advice. If you're a buyer's agent, provide that property advice. And if you're any of the other professions that we aren't listing, that's why it's so important.

[00:37:58] Lachlan Vidler: and I think the best part is you [00:38:00] don't need to wear all hats. Like there is no need to do it. You're actually gonna give people a better service by drilling down into what you're exceptional at. And then letting [00:38:10] other people do what they're exceptional at and build one exceptional team So you can refer your own clients out to who will be appropriate for their circumstances. And then at the end of the [00:38:20] day, the client still gets their exceptional service and they're gonna remember who put them in touch with who. So you don't need to be everything to

[00:38:28] Veronica: Yeah. You know, despite the [00:38:30] challenges that we've been discussing in this, conversation, back to the survey, nearly 60% of investors actually still believes that the next 12 months is a good time to buy. [00:38:40] So where do you think that fragile optimism comes from?

[00:38:43] Lachlan Vidler: the survey had, almost 900 response, right? So it's a very, it's, it has a very large response pool, which is great to give that [00:38:50] statistical

[00:38:50] Lachlan Vidler: reliability. But I also think that there would be something to be said for the fact that, these are people who are responding, who are property investors who are probably a little bit more [00:39:00] knowledgeable than, say the average person.

[00:39:01] Lachlan Vidler: If you were to walk through your local Coles or Woolies and do one of those great Instagram. interviews with a random person off the street. So I guess where I'm leading with this is these [00:39:10] people are probably very well versed in the idea that, the best time to buy was yesterday and the next best time is today.

[00:39:15] Lachlan Vidler: And obviously when they overlay that with their own circumstances and they go, well, yeah, you know, I [00:39:20] know that if I'm in a position to be able to buy, I realistically need to be doing it because. Despite everything that's ever happened, the sky hasn't fallen. And we do have some very, important structural [00:39:30] issues in Australia that will continue to prop up the house prices for probably quite some time to come in, you know, good areas.

[00:39:37] Lachlan Vidler: so I think that's probably where this optimism comes from. I think that people are [00:39:40] sort of seeing that and going, you know what, like we, we add in the fact that we're having rates coming down, we're adding in the fact that,the survey was done just before spring, so maybe there's a bit of warmth in people's hearts getting around.

[00:39:49] Lachlan Vidler: [00:39:50] you know, I think that. Ultimately compared to winding the clock back 12 months ago or 24 months ago, there's probably fractionally more optimism in society, in business, in just [00:40:00] sort of the general feeling of where we're at compared to other times when it's been increased after increase inflation at sky high levels compared to where it had been for, 15 years prior to that.[00:40:10]

[00:40:10] Lachlan Vidler: And I think there's just a little bit more for people to be happy about.

[00:40:12] Veronica: So those later

[00:40:13] Veronica: points there, perhaps that's what lending in, 'cause new investor lending is up too, isn't it, Chris? I mean, [00:40:20] you've got any data on that,

[00:40:21] Chris: oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, obviously you've got the rent investors, the, you know, I need to do something, I can't afford to buy my own home. So that's just absolutely there. you've also [00:40:30] got, people who have, got a bit of equity in their homes, so they've never entered the market for an investment property, or they have one before they've bought a house.

[00:40:36] Chris: and they have learnt and they're going, well, I can't put much more in my [00:40:40] super. the cost living crisis is only making investors more anxious, right? So they're making 'em go, oh, I can't just sit on my hands and just. She'll be right. Make more retire. I've gotta take action, right? Like, [00:40:50] 'cause I have no idea how my life's gonna be in 20 years time.

[00:40:52] Chris: I've gotta build wealth 'cause I've gonna need it one day. Like it's, money's not going that far. And so I think that's encouraging a lot of people to, unlock a lot [00:41:00] of equity and their borrow capacity to invest. but you're obviously s there is the, a cohort that have leveraged up to, you know, you can even see that on the survey.

[00:41:08] Chris: I think there was. Only a small number [00:41:10] of the people selling, you know, have got a multiple properties. And I think that cohort, obviously went through a bit of a tougher time. 'cause they leveraged up hard in 20 20, 20 21. So they can't really [00:41:20] invest the longer term investors usually tapped out.

[00:41:22] Chris: It's more these new investors entering that are, have equity in their home, just, you know, and they're not upgrading as well. They're like, oh, to get an [00:41:30] extra bedroom in the garage and a, and parking and, on a better street, it's an extra, one, one and a half million. I can't afford that.

[00:41:36] Chris: Let's just live here. So they've almost. Squashed a [00:41:40] lot of their aspirational, home upgraded dreams as well, because they just can't see a world where they can make that upgrade happen. So if you're not upgrading, what are you doing? Well, you might as well invest. and so I think that's driving a lot of new [00:41:50] investors in the market as well.

[00:41:51] Veronica: I, I think that some of those comments More relevant, say to Sydney, perhaps Brisbane, where the home values are a lot higher and obviously [00:42:00] the cost to upgrade is a lot higher as well. but you know, it's interesting to see a lot of investor money coming outta Perth.

[00:42:05] Veronica: when you look at what the Perth market did for what, nearly 14 years of nothing, prior to this [00:42:10] latest boom. And now people have got equity, they've got something to do with it.

[00:42:12] Chris: Yeah, that's, that's

[00:42:13] Veronica: yeah. And so for them, you know, it might be driven by different. maybe upgrading to them is not so [00:42:20] attractive,

[00:42:20] Chris: And Brisbane too. Yeah, right. Like, so exactly. so if your house has

[00:42:23] Chris: gone from, you know, one to two and your mortgage was 600 and now that's, say [00:42:30] 400 with low rates, you're like, oh, we are really, on top of our mortgage but if the house was still worth a million, you'd be like, oh, I still wanna get paid off.

[00:42:36] Chris: There's this feeling of extra wealth is, is I think in Brisbane for sure. [00:42:40] Melbourne, OB obviously not so much.

[00:42:41] Chris: Um,

[00:42:41] Veronica: where they're buying. A lot of them are actually taking that money and putting it into Melbourne.

[00:42:45] Chris: but I think they'll upgrade first. I think the market down there, you know, time [00:42:50] ticks on, people are just getting this pent up to me and they're like, oh, you know what, if I don't upgrade now I'm gonna regret it.

[00:42:56] Chris: Right. And a lot of people are so home bias, right? So a lot of people are down there. Love [00:43:00] Melbourne though. Probably wanna buy down there, but they're anti Melbourne, so I think a lot of people living in Melbourne will, try to put it into their house. 'cause it's just, you know, hasn't run, you know, that next house hasn't run on [00:43:10] them.

[00:43:10] Chris: They can make that jump.

[00:43:12] Veronica: Well, also, I think Melburnians are more pessimistic around the state of the state economy and the state of the state government and the interventions of that state [00:43:20] government as well into the property market. they're feeling it.

[00:43:22] Veronica: whereas people from other states aren't quite as sensitive to that and they're not really recognizing that. So they're quite much happier to put money in [00:43:30] Melbourne. They're all, and there's this sort of positivity that, revision to mean. Idea that it's gotta go up, it's undervalued, there's this opportunity and, gotta get in before it takes off.

[00:43:39] Veronica: I [00:43:40] think there's a lot of recency bias around that because you've got, that has happened in Perth and Adelaide and Brisbane for example. Well, that's gonna happen in Melbourne now. And, and it might. [00:43:50] It might, but just because it did elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean a will there or when it will, who knows?

[00:43:55] Veronica: So I, I think there is a bit of that happening. and that probably does go to why there's [00:44:00] a lot of positivity from people from outside of Victoria versus those within. we did talk about rent vesting as well. I mean, can we measure an increase in rent vesting? Is it easy to [00:44:10] do that or do we need to wait for a census?

[00:44:12] Lachlan Vidler: Personally, I think it would be amazing to get some census data on it. I mean, we can obviously put out surveys. like the Pippa investor sentiment survey. We can do, just [00:44:20] sort of like consumer advocacy type surveys through some of those big groups. But personally, I think it would be really, really great to see some of that data come out of the census.

[00:44:28] Lachlan Vidler: I think that. Given [00:44:30] housing is such a, well, it's a fundamental right, of course, but it's at the core of the DNA of Australians and it has been for decades and decades and decades. And now we're in this [00:44:40] situation where housing is potentially one of the most hot button topics, maybe except for IBN specialists blowing up the news at the moment with the net zero all around carbon emissions and [00:44:50] environmental awareness.

[00:44:50] Lachlan Vidler: Housing is probably the next biggest issue getting around Australia, and I think that coming into the next census, I think if the federal government is really smart, they will [00:45:00] take a really good, hard look at what questions are being asked around property and housing and try to collect some extra information.

[00:45:08] Lachlan Vidler: Like for example, rent vesting, [00:45:10] because I think we see it all the time, whether it's especially federal or state, there's always. one political party at any point in time is coming out and trying to come up with [00:45:20] plans about something that's going on. It could be liberal labor.

[00:45:22] Lachlan Vidler: It doesn't really matter, and often it is really not coming from a sound. underpinning set of data, right? It's a lot of advocacy, like what we've [00:45:30] talked about. It's a lot of grandstanding, it's a lot about political positioning, but I think if there was really good hard census data in there, it would make all, political parties, [00:45:40] have to be on their toes and making sure that they're putting forward policies that actually make sense, not just what are politically savvy.

[00:45:49] Veronica: That would be [00:45:50] nice, in the survey Lachlan.

[00:45:52] Veronica: Were

[00:45:53] Veronica: there any findings in this year's survey that surprised even you?

[00:45:56] Lachlan Vidler: Were there any findings? I think that if I was gonna pick out [00:46:00] a couple, it would be that, first looking at the reasons why people would be looking to sell. I think, as I was talking about right at the start, I find it particularly [00:46:10] interesting that those top five things which were around federal reforms, compliance costs, the land tax government charges.

[00:46:15] Lachlan Vidler: Rent caps and ancy legislation. The vast majority of those, [00:46:20] I look at a reduction in autonomy and a reduction in free market principles of what investors would like to see and the control over their assets. I find it really interesting. I did find it [00:46:30] interesting to see that they were the top ones and they were pretty much.

[00:46:33] Lachlan Vidler: All of the things that were related to that kind of idea of autonomy. But I think on a, in a more positive light, I was actually really [00:46:40] happy to see what we were talking about before in terms of where people are getting advice and seeing that it's not centered around one group in particular, because I think that that's dangerous regardless [00:46:50] of what group it is.

[00:46:51] Lachlan Vidler: I think it's really, really good to see it's spread. And also that, you know, Pippa obviously has the qualified Property investment advisor. program [00:47:00] QPIA. I think it was also really, really good to see that program is being utilized and that, you know, 94% of people are supporting formalized training.

[00:47:09] Lachlan Vidler: [00:47:10] Like, to me, that I think just says. Everything about the property investment community, which is that there might be problems going on, but at the end of the day, one thing everyone can agree on is [00:47:20] that training and education is so important. And I think that at even a government level, and I know I, we, we all have, but especially may have talked a lot about government, I think it really can [00:47:30] speak to the idea that maybe there does need to be some more formalized training.

[00:47:33] Lachlan Vidler: Getting around all the states, federally, whatever level you wanna talk about, but you're not really gonna find anybody that doesn't support that.

[00:47:39] Chris: [00:47:40] Lachlan, have you got a property Dumbo to finish the software? Please mate.

[00:47:44] Lachlan Vidler: I certainly do. it was actually a client of ours very, very recently. we negotiated for a deal for them [00:47:50] on a Friday afternoon. Very explicitly said to them, if you get sent the contract, do not do anything until it is reviewed by the solicitors. agent was told, do [00:48:00] not send it to the client, send it to us so we can make sure that nothing goes wrong.

[00:48:03] Lachlan Vidler: And it was sent to the client and the client signed it and the client calls us all excited on Monday morning saying, guys, I'm so excited the deal's [00:48:10] done. And I said, we said, mate, did you send that on to someone? We were gonna obviously help out with that, you know, refer you onto somebody and, oh, shh, no I didn't.

[00:48:19] Lachlan Vidler: [00:48:20] fortunately it was reviewed after and there was nothing bad in it. But, uh, that was the property. Dumbo for us was, signing a property contract without it being reviewed.

[00:48:28] Veronica: Ouch. I would [00:48:30] hazard you should get the review done before you make an offer, but that's just in my process. Thankfully, nothing wrong with that one. But yeah, the amount of, it's interesting. We interviewed Jenny Toner as a [00:48:40] conveyancer come a few years back, and because we don't buy with a cooling off period.

[00:48:44] Veronica: and look, this legislation changes every state and territory is different by the way, but in New South Wales [00:48:50] you can sometimes get a five day cooling off period. because we very rarely do because we're in a very auction oriented area. I actually didn't realize until that interview with Jenny that.

[00:48:59] Veronica: You [00:49:00] can't necessarily, expect to have any. Contract changes agreed to, once you're in the cooling off period in New South Wales, that is a lot of [00:49:10] agents will say to, to a buyer, don't worry, you can sign it and then you've got a five day cooling off period and then, send it to your solicitor then and get any changes, negotiated.

[00:49:17] Veronica: The fact is that's not a given, [00:49:20] so I didn't even know that because it's not something that we did very often. So, uh, it's, it's a minefield out there, isn't it? um.

[00:49:27] Lachlan Vidler: Legal advice,

[00:49:28] Veronica: Legal [00:49:30] very important.

[00:49:31] Veronica: Lachlan, thanks for coming along. great to chat with you and good to hear the insights from this year's Pippa Property Investor sentiment [00:49:40] survey.

[00:49:40] Veronica: and if anyone does want to, I mean, I am actually on the board of Pippa. If anybody does want to check out Pippa advisors who have A-Q-P-I-A qualification, then go [00:49:50] to

[00:49:51] Lachlan Vidler: I think it's ASN au. Yeah.

[00:49:54] Veronica: AU pi. PIPA au. Alright, thank you.

[00:49:59] Chris: [00:50:00] Thanks a lot. Good to

[00:50:00] Chris: chat mate.

[00:50:01] Lachlan Vidler: Thanks for having me.

[00:50:01] Speaker 7: If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in an upcoming q and a episode, you can send us a voicemail or written question via the website. The [00:50:10] elephant in the room.com au. Or you can email us directly at questions at the elephant in the room.com

[00:50:17] Speaker 7: au.

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