We've been pairing academics with people within the community.

And I did the pairing for that and quite a lot of come back and said, how?

How did you do that?

Like we really hit it off and I was like, I don't really know, but

it must be that kind of intuition.

I hate the fact that everything becomes a competition between

universities, especially around public engagement and anything that becomes

a hot topic for REF or wherever suddenly you find yourself competing.

A very senior leader said the other day that one of the governance groups that I

coordinate said was the best example of one university thinking that I've seen.

Hello there.

I'm Sarah McLusky and this is Research Adjacent.

Each episode I talk to amazing research adjacent professionals about what

they do and why it makes a difference.

Keep listening to find out why we think the research adjacent space

is where the real magic happens.

Hello and welcome along to episode 81, where I am joined by guest Laura Breen.

Laura is research development and impact manager at the University of Manchester.

Her role is a cross University one.

She helps to bring together interdisciplinary teams, connects

researchers with community partners, and prioritizes collaboration over competition

an approach, which has been described by senior leaders as one university thinking.

Laura found her way to this work via the museums sector and a PhD in

ceramics where she wrestled with what impact might look like for the arts.

Now, working across disciplines, she still believes in convening what she

calls creative relational spaces and leads with empathy and intuition.

We talk about creating culture change, why big challenges need

multi-partner interdisciplinary teams and giving relationships time to grow.

If you're listening to this soon after its release, you'll have a chance to

meet Laura in person at the Impact Ignite Conference in Southampton next

week, where she will be talking about supporting participatory research.

I'm gonna be there too, recording a live podcast interview that

will be broadcast in early 2026.

So if you're going, make sure that you come along and say

hello to both me and Laura.

But for now, let's listen on to hear Laura's story.

Welcome along to the podcast, Laura.

It is absolutely brilliant to meet you and to hear all about your story today.

So I wonder if we could begin just by giving the listeners a

little bit of an introduction to you, who you are and what you do.

Yeah.

Thanks.

It was lovely to meet you finally.

I feel like I know you through all these podcasts and all the other

people that we've got in common.

So yeah, at the moment I'm the research development and impact manager in

the central research strategy team at the University of Manchester.

Kind of before that, I've got a background in having worked in impact.

I think this is my fourth institution.

Different levels.

Different roles in impact, and a research and practice background

in museums, and worked in project management and kind of as a magazine

editor and things like that in between.

So lots of things going on.

Yeah, really varied background.

I'm looking forward to digging into all of that.

I think I said before we came on the call, I've been reading through your

profile and I was like, oh, that's very not necessarily unusual background,

but just really varied and interesting.

So yeah, definitely hear about that.

But let's talk a little bit, first of all, about the job that you do.

So research development and impact.

Yeah.

Having those two things together seems quite unusual from my experience.

Yeah, I think it is.

I think and I came across it, I, how's that gonna work?

But I think, as I thought about it and as the job evolved, it became really

obvious in that there's this focus on challenge based research coming

through, and a lot of that is about both impact and research development.

So how you weave those things together, how you convene teams from different

disciplines around bids, but are thinking about kind of the impact of that,

but how that's written into the bid.

The same with co-production and things like that.

So I think for university of this scale.

Because we, I think we're one of the five largest universities

in the country or something.

So I think for that, it really does make sense for those things

to be woven together because you've got the faculty based teams

working on those things, in detail.

But you need somebody to join it up and say we've got, a bid

going forward in this focus area.

How do we convene teams from science and engineering and somebody from

humanities that might know about that?

And how do we bring health in and how do we bring in cultural institutions, you

know, the comms team, how do we convene all those people to do this work in a way

that really answers societal challenges?

So yeah, I think it's the scale of the university and thinking about

it from that perspective really does bring them together and make

sense when you're doing the job.

I think

It, it does make sense actually.

I think saying it's unusual to me, it makes a lot of sense, 'cause as you

say, it's about having that strategy.

It's about having that sense of everything from the original concept of

the research through to the difference that you want it to make in the world.

So actually joining those two things up together makes a lot of sense to me.

It's just that not many other universities are doing it that way.

I think that's.

But know, yeah.

When I saw the job, I was like, what is that gonna involve?

Can I do this?

Like, why is this And it, yeah.

And then it does entirely make sense when once you're in the thick of it,

it's oh, of course it's an ecosystem.

It makes perfect sense to bring these things together.

Yeah.

But that's a big job though, if you've So have, you've got oversight

of that for the whole university.

Yeah, but we have , i'm in a team where we've got research

culture other bits of research policy.

My manager's, the research strategy manager, so we all work together quite

closely on different aspects of those.

And then we've got managers in each faculty who are doing, overseeing the

team, so they do the line management.

They do a lot of the kind of stuff on the ground down doing the, how

do we do this as a joint process?

How do we make sure we're not replicating things across different teams?

How do we not have three different processes of this and have one

yes.

Make sure we're bringing in all the right people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I imagine that evolves on a day-to-day basis.

Lots of meetings.

Yeah.

Lots of just coordinating, emailing, joining things up.

Yeah.

I think that my manager, again, she's described me like you are glue.

It's it's thinking about who should be in the room for this?

Who are we missing?

Who are we forgetting?

Who should have been brought into this beginning?

So it's building those relationships really across all

different bits of the university.

So.

And knowing who should be there in that project.

Yeah.

Having that awareness.

Yeah.

No, it's fantastic that you're, as I say, thinking about it at that top level scale.

So you are, you've said there that your background coming to this point

then maybe let tell us a bit about your story of how you, you came

to where you are now and then I'll ask the question I was gonna ask.

Yeah.

I came into kind of the world of impact as it is when I was finishing my PhD

at the University of Westminster.

So that was on kind of ceramics slash museology.

So I was working with three contemporary ceramics practitioners in three museums.

And looking at kind of the evolution of ceramic practice and how it moved

from object to project and some of that even brought in REF even then.

So as I was writing this up, I was like, the impact agenda is shaping what people

are producing because people are used to making objects, have suddenly got

to talk about the impact of their work.

So it's actually shaping artistic practice at the time.

And then the impact was obviously arrived in the REF.

The team at the university looked at me and said, you know about

this, your background's in museums.

I'd worked in museums for kind of seven, eight years beforehand.

You are used to reporting to the Arts Council, used to talking

about the impact of these things.

Can you help us to deal with this thing?

And we learned what impact in REF was together and navigated it.

Through that.

Got through that REF and went from there really.

Yeah.

I think it's one thing that's really interesting that I found from, so

a lot of my career I worked in the sciences and then I came into a job

where I was working with arts and humanities and the way that the different

disciplines conceive of impact and participatory research and things like

that, I think is really interesting.

And from what I've seen And it sounds like maybe from your experience as

well, the arts and humanities are almost doing this stuff already.

It's baked into just the practice of doing the arts and humanities stuff,

and so there's a lot that the sciences can learn from that, which sounds

like exactly what happened to you.

Yeah, I think it is baked in it, it's almost, it's more

complicated as well because it is so threaded through everything.

When you're trying to evidence things in that kind of quite linear, REF

way, it's it's through our processes.

It's not just one impact.

It's all these little things that going off it's impact on artistic practices.

So things like that come up.

And like I said, the fact that it does shape artistic practice is

potentially problematic in some ways.

Are you producing what you would produce as an artist, or are you working in

this way so that you can save for REF?

I've worked with a museum that has seen an explosion of projects,

reinterpreting museums by people that might not have worked in that way before.

I think there's that, but I think yeah, definitely that way of reporting, that

way of thinking about audiences was, is, was more baked into a lot of that

stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely.

And that, so it makes sense why people look to you to help

tell that story of impact.

Yeah.

What you said there about when it changes artistic practice that has

been I've seen that come up so many times in science and art collaboration

projects where you're sometimes what the scientists want or they think they want.

Yeah.

Is a kind of, almost like a literal interpretation of the science.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

Yeah.

Whereas what the artist wants is to create their artistic

vision inspired by the science.

Yeah.

And sometimes that sense that what the scientists want is almost like

some pretty picture that they can put up in the foyer of the lab.

And that's not the way the artist would approach it.

Yeah, and that starting with the end point, which again is

common to the way we work in impact quite often is like, where do you want to be?

Quite often it's, you learn this through the exploration, you learn this

through the people you're working with.

It shifts as it goes along, and that's a kind of different thing to wrap

your head around as well, I think.

Oh, it is a different thing to wrap your head around.

There's some funding applications I've been involved in helping with recently

where it, once you start to get the co-production and the participatory

research into it, it's very difficult to say what the end point's gonna be.

Yeah.

You can see what the process is gonna be, but you can't really see

what the end point's going to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, so you got into impact that way.

And then you said you, you went through a few different organizations

working in impact type roles.

So is drawing in the research development side of things then, is that new

for you in this role you're in now?

Kind of, but I think I always, when I was doing my PhD,

I was always working on research funding applications with the team.

When I worked in museums, I was working with funding teams.

As I said, it was like a magazine editor at one point, so I'm used to

writing narrative and crafting a story.

So that was always there as well.

And I always worked on bids with the research development teams throughout.

At my last institution I basically wrote a lot of the public

engagement bids with the academics.

I wrote the impact sections at most of the institutions I've worked with.

So like I worked really closely with them on that.

So it wasn't, I always did the costings, did the reading of the

guidance, the, like that side of things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was always been involved in teams convening people around these things, so

Yeah.

So just the first time having it in your job description, maybe.

And then is it the and is it the strategic part of it as well, I guess the kind of

horizon scanning and that sort of thing?

Yeah, very much that.

And again, I think that's something I've always done.

It's always been the way that my mind has worked is what's going on in the sector?

What should we be thinking about three years down the line?

How is that gonna inform what we're doing now?

But yeah there's more space for that because I'm not line

managing because the teams and the faculties are doing a lot of that.

Then it's right who can sit back and look at the way we are doing things and how we

can improve them 'cause they haven't got the space to necessarily do that, and it's

Yes.

And they've not got that overview.

Yes.

Yeah.

When they're in the weeds day to day, getting all the, yeah.

The paperwork and the costings and everything like that together,

more specific to their funders.

So yeah, you get to know your specific funders, but when it's

cross council or interdisciplinary, it's a different thing so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that very much, that space, that I think is where a lot of the most

exciting things are happening, isn't it?

These interdisciplinary spaces.

Are there any particular, I guess there's some things you maybe can't

talk about if they're in the process, but are there any particular bids that

you've helped pull together that you can tell us about that you're proud of,

that work came together really well?

Not really I know I tend to sit apart from that.

Our teams have done some amazing bids like this.

So the joined up Center for Sustainable Transformations, I think it's called,

so it's about the transition to net zero, but making that inclusive and

the humanities team worked on that, but with the Young Foundation, with people

from quite different disciplinary areas with the local authorities, they'll be

working with people out in communities to really co-produce this work.

So that was, that's a really nice one, which I've not had much to do

with myself, but it's kind of part of that way of working, which is a.

It is these kind of interdisciplinary ones, bringing

lots of different people together and I feel like that's, it feels to me

like the way forwards, but not not necessarily everybody's on board.

Yeah.

Not for everything.

Yeah.

And not for everything.

Exactly there's certainly some parts of research.

And is that something you ever get a bit of pushback on?

People saying, oh, that just doesn't work for the community, research or, yeah.

So we've got a lot of people doing fundamental research , blue

skies research at the university, and that's always been one of our strengths.

So we are really clear that not everything we have to do has to be challenge based.

This is also an area of strength.

But think about it, think about the impact, think about

how it's, where it might go.

So it's the thinking about it, it's the not, we're gonna push

you all down that route because.

That's not right either.

Some of our biggest discoveries have come through that fundamental research

Yeah, because sometimes you're just fiddling

around with stuff and then you never know where it's gonna end up.

Thinking about maybe then just your career more broadly, the

sorts of things you do now.

Are there any projects or things you're involved with that really stand out

as things that you're really proud of?

I think it's been culture shifts.

So after working at Westminster, I did a bit of work there as a

research associate working on impact.

But then I moved to the University of Huddersfield where I was based

in the school of arts, humanities media and arts humanities, media,

music, humanities, and media.

And they'd just created that role 'cause they saw the value of impact.

So it was the only role in the university that dealt with impact.

There was a kind of a central role that was overseeing things.

But in terms of the culture change, there was that role.

I think in terms of that, I had to work a lot with senior management

'cause I was the only role, even though I was faculty based, I was

working with the senior leaders to push for change in areas like that so,

mm-hmm.

we were kind of making friends across the university.

We had a, what we called like PE Club.

It's just a few of us are interested in public engagement in the basement.

We brought together some people to talk about this showing the

university it mattered, and then they went for the Engage Watermark.

Or they saw when they decided to review the the REF impact case study draft, they

saw that it was working in our faculty and then other faculty started creating roles.

So I think seeing that kind of thing come through and then I worked

at Manchester Met in a faculty based impact management role.

And again, there it was.

I think sometimes seeing some of the people that were most resistant at the

start when I left with the people that seemed to be saddest about me leaving.

So I thought, okay, this is, you really didn't wanna work

with me at the beginning.

You're sad that I'm going, I must have done something right there.

And people, especially like the early career researchers I'm working

with, seeing them become more confident, seeing some of the bids

that we work with come through and watch, watching their careers grow.

So it's that kind of culture change.

And I think, yeah, where I am now, similarly 'cause I'm joining up people

from across the university, I've had a few people come to me and say I feel seen.

Like I don't feel that my area of research was seen before, like

somebody I've been working with.

She said, oh, I just went off and wrote a load of stuff the other day.

She said, I've not been able to do it.

But working with you has given me that kind of freedom and

kind of head space to do it.

And then a very senior leader said the other day that like one of the

governance groups that I coordinate said was like the best example of like

one university thinking that I've seen.

I thought this is, that's the achievement.

So it's not like I won a massive bid, but in terms of culture change, it

seems to be that kind of coworking.

So it's more that kind of thing I think.

Yeah.

But that is when it comes to it and that, that's one of the challenges,

isn't it, in this kind of work, is actually in the grand scheme of things.

That's the stuff that makes more of a difference, isn't it?

Yeah.

Is actually, if you can change somebody's thinking that's more important than

winning some big bid or running some event or something that you can point

to and say, I did that and it is this challenge, isn't it, with the way

that we value and assess research.

It's all about these kind of tick box outputs.

Yeah.

It's what's your KPI for that?

Yeah.

So what have we done that's worked this year?

And it's I could tell you about all these things, but trying to

actually put numbers or statistics or Yeah,

even anecdotes around it sometimes is really challenging, isn't it?

But really powerful.

So what do you think is the secret then, to making these kind of culture shifts?

Listening I think, caring.

I think sometimes it's that you care about what you do.

Listening to people and that join up, I think not trying to own everything

you can see something that you can't help with but somebody else can.

Being able to let go of things and go, actually, no, I can't help

you with that, but why don't you go and work with the policy team?

Why don't you go and work with them?

I think that kind of openness to different ways of thinking different

with different expertise, I think.

But it's very relational.

It's about the people and I think my friends said to me find your

people and it's I found my people.

And then through those networks, they've got other networks and

that seems to create the, I dunno, the force to make things happen.

Yeah.

Oh it is, there's certainly with all the people I've spoken to on the

podcast, different people have different approaches to making things happen,

but it sounds like you've got that kind of quiet, relational, diplomatic

yeah, way of influencing people, which can be incredibly powerful,

but also unrecognized sometimes.

Yeah.

Sometimes just not, the time and the care that has to go into that sort of

approach is sometimes not recognized.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's the, it's tiring as well, isn't it, when you care so much.

I think somebody said to me the other day is you have to not care so much.

I was like, I can't.

It's in my DNA.

It's like I'd love if I didn't care, but then also I wouldn't be me and

things wouldn't work in the same way.

Yeah.

I think maybe that's what we, sometimes I feel like a little

bit of that is what's lacking.

I just said, we did an interview when with I'll mispronounce

her name, Johanna Stadlbauer,

Oh, she's amazing.

Yes.

And she was talking about how we need just academia to be a bit more kind.

Yes.

lately

Yeah.

It's so adversarial sometimes, and some in some sectors.

And and particularly with the, the financial challenges and things like that.

At the moment the last thing we need to be is.

Fighting against each other.

It's better.

Yeah.

Fight together.

Yeah.

I think it's that protecting yourself as well, isn't it?

So care, but also realize that what you can and can't take on is what

I've learned over recent years.

It w on't be good for me or anyone if I keep taking on.

So no, true boundaries.

Yeah.

Incredibly important.

That sounds like we're, it sounds like we're coming now to talk maybe

about some of the things that have been a little bit challenging.

So have boundaries been something that's been a bit challenging for you at times?

Yeah, I think so.

I think it's interesting.

Yeah, I think there's probably two things challenge wise that really stick out.

So I think universities, they are strange places, aren't they?

'cause they're very strange places.

You can have decades of experience in your area, but then have to win

the agreement of, or defer to people that have got extensive academic

experience, but maybe not in your area.

And they're not usually the most senior.

I find, like I've got really good relationships with our

senior people who respect that.

But there can be other people that don't.

So that could be frustrating because you can see it holding things back, or

you can see things don't work as well as they can, or they could do, or you can

see that two years down the line, you're doing what you suggested two years ago.

Yeah.

Was needed.

So I think that it can be yeah, living with that and learning to live with the

fact that you can't control everything.

I think, especially in a centralized role like me, I was like, that's

not working, that's not working.

It's what can you feasibly do?

You can steer, you can guide, but you can't go in and fix everything yourself.

So I think, yeah, that bit.

I think the second one would be value clashes.

So again, over the past few years I've probably learned that,

probably forever, I'm really driven by my values and behaviors.

I think when I've been in job interviews, I remember someone saying

to me that was an academic answer.

When you're talking about the reasons that we do things, I'm not

thinking maybe in terms of how a lot of professional services people in

think why should we bring in income?

Why should we do all these things?

And I default to well it's our public duty, you gotta

make the world a better place.

They're like, oh, this is interesting.

And I think my current manager actually said to me, manager,

that was a very ethical answer.

So it's so that comes through a lot and I think, yeah, I've also been

called like a canary in the coal mine is something someone said.

I'm very sensitive to what's going on.

So if there are microaggressions and that kind of, I was reading an article

about it the other day about incivility, that kind of subtle level of unkindness.

I'm, I can't, I can't work within that I found myself having to, trying

to change those situations first of all, but then having to admit when I'm

not gonna change that is bigger than me to, to move course, I think it's.

Understanding that, and I'm thinking yeah I can't fix this.

No, this is bigger than me.

So understanding those things, which, I'm lucky.

I've got a very nice team now.

I've worked with many wonderful teams.

But I think it's learning about yourself, isn't it?

What are your lines in the sand?

What's.

Yeah.

I think the older I get, the more I realize that our careers

and, it's all just a huge long process of self discovery.

Yeah.

Isn't it?

It's about learning, what you're good at, what you're not so good at, what you

can tolerate, what you can't tolerate, where your boundaries are, where's the

line that, that, if that's crossed,

yeah.

It's not gonna be good for anybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am.

Yeah.

I think, okay.

My manager said when I came in the room she said, oh we've got

an empath, but in a nice way.

She's we've got an empath.

And I was like, really?

How have you got that from me in a few weeks?

But I think, yeah, I probably am more sensitive to some of these

things than other people, but usually it plays out a bit down the line

when things start falling apart.

It's oh yeah.

Yes it's spotting those things, but yeah, knowing, again, boundaries.

Boundaries, very important.

It sounds like as well as being empathetic, you're

also very intuitive as well, so like you say, maybe recognizing

almost like that gut feeling of this is the way things are going, which I can

see is useful both from the relational point of view, but also that kind

of horizon scanning, for your job.

Like intuition about which people will work well together.

Yeah.

Or which projects are gonna be like a good fit.

Which ones are gonna be the, where's the world going, where's that gonna be?

Yeah.

That does happen.

Like we pair, we had a lovely project the other week where we

were pairing, we've been pairing, academics with kind of people we've

got relationships within the community.

Working with a social responsibility team, just sending 'em out and

they've gone for three brews together.

I gone for, three chats together.

Just get to know each other and see what learning there is and if there's

learning from the university about that.

And I did the pairing for that kind knowing things about them, speaking

to people who knew them, reading about their backgrounds and quite

a lot of come back and said, how?

How did you do that?

Like we really hit it off and I was like, I don't really know,

but it must be that kind of intuition about Yeah, there's

very impact mindset, isn't it?

I think it's, I know like I'm an art historian, I guess cultural historian

by background and it's that picking up evidence, piecing things together it's,

I think it comes with that as well.

Yeah, potentially.

I think it's, I think as well, I wonder if it's with the arts

background that often in the arts, it's about intangible stuff, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's about how does this art affect how you feel?

Yes.

Or that sort of thing, or the story that it's trying to tell.

Not in a literal sense, yeah.

But in that more kind of sensory intuitive kind of way.

Probably with museums as well, I think, 'cause museum

audiences are, you can break them down, but they're potentially everyone.

So you've got to think about what's gonna appeal to this person?

How are they gonna learn?

Are they gonna learn anything about history?

Do we care?

Or are they gonna learn from their granddad, talking to 'em about

their past as they go around?

So I think it's some of that as well.

Yeah.

And just recognizing that different people are different and need different

things and different levels of support and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

Oh, really interesting.

I love thinking about this stuff.

And so I think, as I like to ask my guests if they had a magic wand, what would they

change about the world that they work in?

What would you like to use your magic wand for?

Blimey so you, yeah, you mentioned the adversarial stuff.

So that would be one.

I hate the fact that everything becomes a competition between universities and

things like that, especially around kind public engagement and anything that

becomes a hot topic for REF or wherever suddenly you find yourself competing.

But I think for me it's, it is a relational space, so I think it would be

more funding, more time, more support for the stages, either side of the research.

So create time and space to co-create research questions, but also to

sit in that space and get to know different groups, different individuals

that we might do research with.

Find those commonalities without it being transactional.

On, same on the other side, time to maintain those relationships and

evolve them without just thinking about the next funding bid or the project.

So I think of it as like creating space for what you might have water

cooler moments, if you were at a conference, if you worked in an office

together, which you don't get with these kind of groups, but something

like that kind of bring you together and that creative relational spaces.

And not everything have to be in transactional because.

I've seen that these seem to be the places that are actually most productive.

But again, you can't put a price on them.

You can't say no can, because this will lead to this.

But quite often they do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, and it is it, and it's, I agree, it's so valuable, but because it's slow.

Time consuming and there isn't always a clear, definite outcome for it,

it can feel hard to prioritize.

Yeah.

But I've seen that.

Yeah.

When people do prioritize it, it moves mountains.

Yeah.

Just getting to know people on a level as people can just be just just like you say

about people feeling seen and understood.

And build that trust and the things that come up when you've not got

an agenda and you find some commonality that you haven't even thought about.

So yeah, you can never plan for that.

If you've got a really strict agenda, it's, you're not

gonna find those things out.

Yeah, absolutely.

You need that space and time to talk about things.

And it's one of the challenges now, isn't it, with things being online.

There are huge benefits, obviously.

Yeah.

With things being online, but I think we lose that space for

casual conversation, don't we?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, I think we're moving.

I dunno, things are moving and changing, aren't they?

All the time.

But I think people are starting to realize the downsides of living online.

Yeah.

And I think there's slightly more space for that kind of test and fail thing.

Like we're trying to do bits of it, but people seem to be moving a bit more.

It's hard in this financial climate, but, allowing a bit of space for

risk in kind of what happens if you have those failed spaces.

It's,

yeah.

Yeah.

No, really such, again, a kind thing to do for people if you can create those spaces.

Yeah.

Oh, lovely.

We should think about wrapping up our conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and I think that idea of making things a little bit kinder is a lovely

place, A little bit kinder, a little bit slower, is a lovely place to leave it.

And if people want to get in touch with you, find out more about what you do,

where is the best place to find you?

Usually on LinkedIn, I think is, it's the easiest place to, to find

me otherwise on the research strategy pages at the, on the university website.

It's linked to me there as well.

Excellent.

We'll get links to those and put them in the show notes.

Definitely.

Yeah.

The LinkedIn is where we connected and you're certainly very active

there, so good place to come and see what you're up to.

Oh, thank you so much for taking the time to come along and share your

story and, it's been so interesting.

Thank you.

Lovely to meet you.

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