Speaker: 00:00:00

Sometimes I think of it like a jigsaw puzzle.

00:00:02,877 --> 00:00:04,129

If you're putting a puzzle together,

00:00:04,838 --> 00:00:06,548

if you get a piece wrong,

00:00:07,340 --> 00:00:08,967

you might continue to be

00:00:08,967 --> 00:00:10,260

putting your puzzle together

00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:11,094

until you realize that

00:00:11,094 --> 00:00:12,929

things simply do not work here.

00:00:12,929 --> 00:00:13,763

There's something wrong.

00:00:14,472 --> 00:00:15,640

And then what are we going to do?

00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,016

Are we going to keep forcing the pieces

00:00:17,016 --> 00:00:18,935

and say it needs to be this way?

00:00:19,144 --> 00:00:23,022

Or can we back up and reorganize things

00:00:23,523 --> 00:00:25,316

to have a better understanding?

00:00:25,775 --> 00:00:26,776

And if we don't do that,

00:00:26,776 --> 00:00:29,154

the picture is not going to be right in the end.

00:00:35,368 --> 00:00:36,202

It's an honor to have you

00:00:36,202 --> 00:00:37,954

on the podcast, Glenn Martin.

00:00:38,496 --> 00:00:40,540

So we've connected different times,

00:00:40,540 --> 00:00:41,291

but this first time

00:00:41,291 --> 00:00:42,917

actually got to meet you in person,

00:00:42,917 --> 00:00:43,918

which is great.

00:00:44,335 --> 00:00:45,545

You help run the Strength

00:00:45,545 --> 00:00:46,671

to Strength YouTube channel,

00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:49,007

which we've had a lot of interaction with.

00:00:49,257 --> 00:00:50,175

We'll link them down below.

00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:51,509

You've done different

00:00:51,509 --> 00:00:52,635

ministry things over the years.

00:00:53,052 --> 00:00:55,305

And you recently published your first book.

00:00:56,014 --> 00:00:57,724

And I remember seeing the title when it came out

00:00:57,724 --> 00:00:58,933

and just kind of doing a double take.

00:00:59,684 --> 00:01:01,519

And I think maybe some other people did as well.

00:01:02,145 --> 00:01:03,021

The title of the book is

00:01:03,021 --> 00:01:05,190

"Righteous Lot ?,"

00:01:05,690 --> 00:01:06,441

A historical retelling.

00:01:06,858 --> 00:01:08,067

And I was like, huh, I've

00:01:08,067 --> 00:01:10,653

not really thought about Lot

00:01:10,987 --> 00:01:13,072

a whole much in my life.

00:01:13,740 --> 00:01:17,619

And so, yeah, you got me a copy of it.

00:01:17,619 --> 00:01:18,536

I read it, I was very intrigued.

00:01:19,078 --> 00:01:21,247

And obviously there's a whole book on this.

00:01:21,247 --> 00:01:22,207

We're not going to cover it all,

00:01:22,207 --> 00:01:23,625

but I think it'd be interesting to at least dive

00:01:23,625 --> 00:01:24,626

into some of the main points

00:01:24,626 --> 00:01:25,794

and maybe pull some lessons

00:01:25,794 --> 00:01:28,671

that you've learned through this whole process.

00:01:29,214 --> 00:01:31,841

So first question is, how

00:01:31,841 --> 00:01:33,426

did you get interested in Lot?

00:01:34,135 --> 00:01:36,930

And is not the story of Lot just pretty clear cut

00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:37,263

in scripture?

00:01:37,597 --> 00:01:40,058

Like why write an entire book about this?

00:01:40,683 --> 00:01:41,935

Okay, well, thanks for having me, Reagan.

00:01:42,602 --> 00:01:43,478

Two questions there.

00:01:43,853 --> 00:01:45,939

The first was, why did I feel there was a need

00:01:45,939 --> 00:01:46,940

for a book about Lot?

00:01:47,607 --> 00:01:48,775

So ever since I was young,

00:01:49,651 --> 00:01:51,194

even in my teenage years,

00:01:51,194 --> 00:01:52,779

I had an interest in apologetics.

00:01:53,238 --> 00:01:55,698

And anyone who follows the terrain of apologetics

00:01:55,698 --> 00:01:58,576

kind of knows the common objections to theism

00:01:58,743 --> 00:01:59,702

or to Christianity.

00:02:00,995 --> 00:02:03,873

And among those, and there's many different types

00:02:03,873 --> 00:02:05,333

of objections, but one

00:02:05,333 --> 00:02:06,626

category would be the reliability

00:02:06,835 --> 00:02:08,378

of Scriptures and another

00:02:08,378 --> 00:02:09,879

being the character of God.

00:02:11,005 --> 00:02:12,131

And in many cases, I

00:02:12,131 --> 00:02:13,633

think the Christian apologists

00:02:13,633 --> 00:02:14,968

have done a really good job

00:02:14,968 --> 00:02:16,636

in defending the reliability

00:02:17,095 --> 00:02:17,679

of scriptures.

00:02:18,721 --> 00:02:19,347

I think it can be

00:02:19,347 --> 00:02:21,766

demonstrated that the texts that we have

00:02:22,141 --> 00:02:23,434

from the original sources

00:02:23,434 --> 00:02:26,521

remains remarkably solid

00:02:26,938 --> 00:02:27,438

to this day.

00:02:28,106 --> 00:02:29,691

And I think that can be demonstrated

00:02:29,899 --> 00:02:31,442

and has been demonstrated very well

00:02:32,235 --> 00:02:33,361

in the apologetic community.

00:02:34,195 --> 00:02:37,323

But I think one place where perhaps the job

00:02:37,323 --> 00:02:38,700

has not been done so well

00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:40,326

is in defending the character

00:02:40,535 --> 00:02:43,663

of God as illustrating that God is good.

00:02:44,539 --> 00:02:46,624

So skeptics will call out things like maybe

00:02:46,624 --> 00:02:48,418

the Canaanite conquest, okay?

00:02:48,918 --> 00:02:50,295

So there's a lot of

00:02:50,295 --> 00:02:52,338

problems or a lot of difficulties

00:02:52,672 --> 00:02:53,882

that need to be addressed there.

00:02:54,340 --> 00:02:56,009

And the skeptics will call it a genocide

00:02:56,801 --> 00:02:57,886

or things like that.

00:02:58,803 --> 00:03:00,221

There's books that have been written on this

00:03:00,597 --> 00:03:02,724

and some have done a reasonable job.

00:03:03,016 --> 00:03:04,100

I think we could do a better job.

00:03:05,435 --> 00:03:08,104

Sometimes skeptics will scoff about the God

00:03:08,229 --> 00:03:10,106

who sacrificed himself to

00:03:10,106 --> 00:03:11,858

himself to save us from himself.

00:03:12,609 --> 00:03:14,360

Those are atonement arguments.

00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:16,487

And I think there would be better ways

00:03:16,654 --> 00:03:17,780

to understand the atonement.

00:03:18,531 --> 00:03:19,657

And I think sometimes poor

100

00:03:19,657 --> 00:03:21,701

theology gets in the way of that.

101

00:03:21,993 --> 00:03:23,119

And then the skeptics will

102

00:03:23,119 --> 00:03:24,454

be quick to point that out.

103

00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:27,540

And I think that, again, it reflects against

104

00:03:27,540 --> 00:03:29,375

the character of God if we

105

00:03:29,375 --> 00:03:32,378

are not producing good answers

106

00:03:32,795 --> 00:03:33,671

to those objections.

107

00:03:34,964 --> 00:03:36,841

So then the topic at hand about Lot,

108

00:03:37,634 --> 00:03:40,345

there's some tough moments in Lot's story.

109

00:03:41,429 --> 00:03:43,973

So if Lot was a righteous man,

110

00:03:44,641 --> 00:03:46,768

then what do we say about what happened in Sodom?

111

00:03:47,101 --> 00:03:49,687

So Genesis gives a pretty graphic account

112

00:03:50,229 --> 00:03:52,523

and we need to either determine,

113

00:03:53,066 --> 00:03:55,109

is this man a good man or a bad man?

114

00:03:55,109 --> 00:03:56,653

It would be easy to say he's bad,

115

00:03:56,819 --> 00:03:58,363

depending what our presuppositions are

116

00:03:58,613 --> 00:03:59,572

when we come to the text.

117

00:04:00,406 --> 00:04:02,867

But it's difficult to say that he's bad

118

00:04:02,951 --> 00:04:04,744

because Peter gave his commentary

119

00:04:04,744 --> 00:04:06,621

and he said he's righteous three times.

120

00:04:07,121 --> 00:04:08,539

Yeah, see, I think that's the part

121

00:04:08,539 --> 00:04:09,749

that made me do a bit of a double take.

122

00:04:09,749 --> 00:04:10,750

Okay. Because I'm like,

123

00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:12,043

well, we all know the story of Lot.

124

00:04:12,043 --> 00:04:13,544

Oh yeah, this was bad and all that.

125

00:04:13,753 --> 00:04:15,880

Oh wait, Peter, like the apostles,

126

00:04:16,130 --> 00:04:17,090

says he's righteous in the

127

00:04:17,090 --> 00:04:18,383

New Testament multiple times.

128

00:04:19,217 --> 00:04:20,593

Oh, I don't know what to do with that.

129

00:04:21,302 --> 00:04:22,804

Anyways, yeah, but continue.

130

00:04:23,304 --> 00:04:24,472

Yeah, so I think that the

131

00:04:24,472 --> 00:04:25,765

skeptics have a fair question.

132

00:04:26,349 --> 00:04:27,934

So we have a reliable scriptures,

133

00:04:27,934 --> 00:04:29,185

I think that's pretty solid.

134

00:04:29,686 --> 00:04:32,230

But then can we trust this God

135

00:04:32,397 --> 00:04:33,856

who has given us these scriptures

136

00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:37,026

when he calls Lot a godly person?

137

00:04:37,026 --> 00:04:37,777

Like is God good?

138

00:04:39,153 --> 00:04:41,990

So I think that there is,

139

00:04:43,658 --> 00:04:45,201

it deserves a good answer.

140

00:04:46,035 --> 00:04:46,953

It's kind of a conundrum

141

00:04:46,953 --> 00:04:48,329

that deserves a good answer.

142

00:04:48,329 --> 00:04:50,540

And in my opinion, the Christian apologists

143

00:04:50,957 --> 00:04:51,833

have given all the wrong

144

00:04:51,833 --> 00:04:53,793

answers when it comes to Lot.

145

00:04:54,043 --> 00:04:54,377

Okay.

146

00:04:54,919 --> 00:04:57,046

So I detail these in my book,

147

00:04:57,755 --> 00:04:59,298

and you can easily look these up.

148

00:05:00,258 --> 00:05:02,969

My book is foot noted and you can easily see

149

00:05:02,969 --> 00:05:04,971

that these are responses

150

00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:05,930

of the Christian community

151

00:05:05,930 --> 00:05:06,431

as giving.

152

00:05:07,181 --> 00:05:08,307

So some folks will say

153

00:05:08,307 --> 00:05:09,392

that Lot must have repented

154

00:05:09,684 --> 00:05:10,351

later in life.

155

00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:11,811

There's no record of that.

156

00:05:12,562 --> 00:05:13,479

Some will say that Peter

157

00:05:13,479 --> 00:05:15,565

forgot about Lot's time in Sodom.

158

00:05:15,898 --> 00:05:17,650

And these are given as serious answers.

159

00:05:17,692 --> 00:05:19,235

Whoa, okay, but then if

160

00:05:19,235 --> 00:05:20,403

you're saying Peter is writing

161

00:05:20,611 --> 00:05:21,612

inspired by the Holy Spirit

162

00:05:21,612 --> 00:05:22,947

and this is inspired scripture.

163

00:05:22,947 --> 00:05:23,489

You've got a problem.

164

00:05:23,531 --> 00:05:25,700

Oh, that's dangerous territory right there.

165

00:05:26,075 --> 00:05:26,659

Wow, okay.

166

00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,620

So another thing that's commonly said is that Lot

167

00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:33,041

was not held to specific moral expectations

168

00:05:33,458 --> 00:05:35,501

because it was prior to the Mosaic law,

169

00:05:36,544 --> 00:05:37,503

which sounds reasonable.

170

00:05:38,004 --> 00:05:39,797

At the same time though, you gotta say,

171

00:05:39,797 --> 00:05:41,883

well, what was happening in Sodom,

172

00:05:42,633 --> 00:05:44,427

even the Sodomites were

173

00:05:44,427 --> 00:05:47,346

held to some moral expectations

174

00:05:47,805 --> 00:05:48,806

prior to the Mosaic law.

175

00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:50,683

It really doesn't hold up.

176

00:05:51,017 --> 00:05:52,018

Yeah, because God ended up

177

00:05:52,018 --> 00:05:53,311

judging the cities obviously,

178

00:05:53,603 --> 00:05:55,521

very dramatically, so, okay.

179

00:05:56,564 --> 00:05:57,899

And then there's also arguments

180

00:05:58,066 --> 00:05:59,150

about imputed righteousness.

181

00:05:59,650 --> 00:06:01,444

So some will say that Lot was imputed righteous

182

00:06:01,819 --> 00:06:03,279

because of Abraham's faith,

183

00:06:03,780 --> 00:06:05,656

or some will say that Lot was imputed righteous

184

00:06:05,990 --> 00:06:07,533

because of Christ's righteousness.

185

00:06:10,119 --> 00:06:10,411

Interesting.

186

00:06:11,621 --> 00:06:12,955

I'm not sure if I've heard that one before.

187

00:06:13,706 --> 00:06:15,541

That's actually a very common response.

188

00:06:15,917 --> 00:06:16,834

Interesting, okay.

189

00:06:18,336 --> 00:06:21,172

So I think these are all remarkably poor answers.

190

00:06:21,172 --> 00:06:21,923

I think we can do better.

191

00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:24,467

And that's what I attempt to do

192

00:06:24,467 --> 00:06:25,676

by giving a historical

193

00:06:25,676 --> 00:06:28,262

retelling of what really happened.

194

00:06:29,889 --> 00:06:34,143

So oftentimes people will cite what 1 Peter says

195

00:06:34,143 --> 00:06:36,521

about being ready always to give a defense

196

00:06:37,271 --> 00:06:38,815

of the hope that you have.

197

00:06:39,649 --> 00:06:42,360

But the same verse says that we should sanctify

198

00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:43,820

the Lord God in our hearts.

199

00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,404

So let me just read this verse.

200

00:06:45,655 --> 00:06:47,824

This comes from 1 Peter chapter 3 verse 15.

201

00:06:48,533 --> 00:06:49,325

It says, "But sanctify

202

00:06:49,325 --> 00:06:50,493

the Lord God in your hearts

203

00:06:50,493 --> 00:06:52,954

and always be ready to give a defense to everyone

204

00:06:52,954 --> 00:06:54,914

who asks you for the reason of the hope

205

00:06:54,914 --> 00:06:56,666

that is in you with meekness and fear."

206

00:06:57,083 --> 00:06:59,335

So people focus on the part here

207

00:06:59,710 --> 00:07:01,045

about being ready to give a defense.

208

00:07:01,671 --> 00:07:02,755

But the verse begins by

209

00:07:02,755 --> 00:07:04,423

saying sanctify the Lord God.

210

00:07:05,049 --> 00:07:08,219

And to sanctify somebody means to make them holy

211

00:07:08,344 --> 00:07:10,221

or better their reputation.

212

00:07:11,389 --> 00:07:13,015

And so if we're doing a good job

213

00:07:13,141 --> 00:07:14,851

of defending the reliability of the scripture,

214

00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,645

but we're not showing,

215

00:07:17,979 --> 00:07:19,522

demonstrating that God is good,

216

00:07:19,814 --> 00:07:20,982

giving him a good reputation,

217

00:07:21,649 --> 00:07:23,943

then we're showing that a reliable Bible

218

00:07:24,777 --> 00:07:26,904

is illustrating a bad God.

219

00:07:27,530 --> 00:07:28,573

And that's not what we want to do.

220

00:07:29,073 --> 00:07:30,616

Yeah, okay, okay, I'm starting to see that.

221

00:07:31,409 --> 00:07:32,994

Yeah, so then moving on to the

222

00:07:32,994 --> 00:07:34,328

second part of your question,

223

00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:35,371

isn't the story pretty

224

00:07:35,371 --> 00:07:37,165

clear cut in the scripture?

225

00:07:38,124 --> 00:07:39,458

Yes and no. I think it is.

226

00:07:40,001 --> 00:07:43,129

But many others would read the same story

227

00:07:43,462 --> 00:07:46,132

and would also answer that, yes, it is clear,

228

00:07:46,549 --> 00:07:48,301

and yet they have a completely different picture

229

00:07:48,759 --> 00:07:49,343

of what happened.

230

00:07:49,927 --> 00:07:51,888

So I think it's clear, you think it's clear,

231

00:07:52,180 --> 00:07:53,639

I think Lot is good, you

232

00:07:53,639 --> 00:07:55,141

think Lot is bad, right?

233

00:07:55,141 --> 00:07:56,100

Yeah, yeah, okay.

234

00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:58,352

And we don't come to the

235

00:07:58,352 --> 00:07:59,896

scriptures with a blank slate.

236

00:07:59,896 --> 00:08:01,772

We all have our prejudices, we have biases,

237

00:08:01,981 --> 00:08:03,024

we have presuppositions.

238

00:08:04,108 --> 00:08:05,026

And I think it's

239

00:08:05,026 --> 00:08:07,695

remarkable that the folks who read

240

00:08:07,945 --> 00:08:10,865

Jewish or Christian literature 2000 years ago

241

00:08:11,490 --> 00:08:13,659

have a totally different idea about Lot

242

00:08:13,993 --> 00:08:15,453

than modern Christians today.

243

00:08:15,828 --> 00:08:16,495

So interesting,

244

00:08:16,746 --> 00:08:17,872

interesting, walk me through that.

245

00:08:18,289 --> 00:08:21,083

So 2000 years ago, you would

246

00:08:21,083 --> 00:08:22,752

be around the time of Peter

247

00:08:23,002 --> 00:08:25,171

when Peter said that Lot is righteous

248

00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,049

for at least 400 or 500 years before that,

249

00:08:28,049 --> 00:08:29,926

at least 400 or 500 years after that,

250

00:08:29,926 --> 00:08:32,762

we have lots of records that illustrate

251

00:08:32,970 --> 00:08:34,722

what people were thinking at that time.

252

00:08:35,181 --> 00:08:37,642

And it was all good.

253

00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:39,519

Everyone thought Lot was righteous.

254

00:08:39,810 --> 00:08:41,604

Really, yeah, and of

255

00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:42,772

course, if people want references,

256

00:08:43,022 --> 00:08:45,274

you've got all that footnoted and stuff in the book.

257

00:08:45,566 --> 00:08:47,777

But I think that's an important piece

258

00:08:47,902 --> 00:08:49,320

because, and I don't

259

00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:50,613

wanna get into a bunny trail,

260

00:08:50,613 --> 00:08:52,990

but it feels like, like you said,

261

00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:54,367

we don't necessarily come to scripture

262

00:08:54,367 --> 00:08:56,953

with this perfect clean slate with no biases

263

00:08:57,203 --> 00:09:00,206

and all that, we tend to put our perspectives

264

00:09:00,581 --> 00:09:01,999

into the reading automatically.

265

00:09:02,458 --> 00:09:04,585

This is part of, it's part of being a human.

266

00:09:05,127 --> 00:09:09,131

And it's extremely easy to forget that Christians

267

00:09:09,423 --> 00:09:10,675

or other people in the

268

00:09:10,675 --> 00:09:11,968

past have talked about this,

269

00:09:11,968 --> 00:09:13,427

written about this and had perspectives

270

00:09:13,761 --> 00:09:16,180

and totally forget that those existed.

271

00:09:16,764 --> 00:09:17,682

And that was the one thing I

272

00:09:17,682 --> 00:09:19,267

noticed reading through the book

273

00:09:19,267 --> 00:09:21,102

is like, oh, I've never heard that.

274

00:09:21,102 --> 00:09:23,604

Oh, wow, there were people back then

275

00:09:23,771 --> 00:09:25,523

that had a completely different perspective

276

00:09:25,982 --> 00:09:27,858

and just have lost that entirely.

277

00:09:28,359 --> 00:09:30,236

So what you're trying to do with this is,

278

00:09:30,236 --> 00:09:30,778

obviously you're going

279

00:09:30,778 --> 00:09:32,280

back to the text of scripture,

280

00:09:32,697 --> 00:09:36,117

but also saying historically what did the church

281

00:09:36,409 --> 00:09:38,035

or Jewish writers or other

282

00:09:38,035 --> 00:09:40,162

historical people say about it.

283

00:09:40,162 --> 00:09:41,497

Is that a fair way of saying it?

284

00:09:41,539 --> 00:09:42,456

That's exactly right.

285

00:09:42,456 --> 00:09:43,541

Both Jewish and Christian

286

00:09:43,541 --> 00:09:45,668

writers have read extensively

287

00:09:45,668 --> 00:09:47,378

a lot of work that we don't

288

00:09:47,378 --> 00:09:48,838

spend a lot of time with today,

289

00:09:49,171 --> 00:09:51,382

but they show, it's very easy to demonstrate

290

00:09:51,549 --> 00:09:53,884

how the change of perspective has happened.

291

00:09:54,468 --> 00:09:55,886

And I dedicate a chapter,

292

00:09:56,220 --> 00:09:57,346

the afterward in the book

293

00:09:57,805 --> 00:09:59,390

actually follows that through history.

294

00:09:59,724 --> 00:10:00,683

Oh, interesting to where the

295

00:10:00,683 --> 00:10:01,767

perspective kind of shifts.

296

00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:03,144

Oh, interesting.

297

00:10:03,602 --> 00:10:03,811

Okay.

298

00:10:04,312 --> 00:10:07,815

So essentially you're arguing that at least today

299

00:10:08,232 --> 00:10:10,192

we tend to misunderstand a lot

300

00:10:10,735 --> 00:10:12,486

and it's important to

301

00:10:12,486 --> 00:10:15,114

recalibrate in a sense, I guess,

302

00:10:15,364 --> 00:10:17,199

and try to get our heads around, okay,

303

00:10:17,491 --> 00:10:18,367

the story that we have in

304

00:10:18,367 --> 00:10:20,202

Genesis, the story of Lot,

305

00:10:20,745 --> 00:10:21,746

and then Peter later on

306

00:10:21,746 --> 00:10:22,955

saying, this man's righteous.

307

00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:23,539

How do we make this?

308

00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:24,832

How does this work?

309

00:10:24,832 --> 00:10:25,583

How does this fit together?

310

00:10:27,418 --> 00:10:28,586

So I think you've already answered this,

311

00:10:28,586 --> 00:10:30,963

but why does that matter to us today?

312

00:10:31,255 --> 00:10:34,133

And then maybe start going through this,

313

00:10:34,133 --> 00:10:36,010

start explaining this and

314

00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:37,219

answering these objections.

315

00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:38,387

Sure.

316

00:10:38,804 --> 00:10:39,513

Yeah, so I already

317

00:10:39,513 --> 00:10:40,931

mentioned one thing, apologetics.

318

00:10:41,223 --> 00:10:43,309

I think it matters to have this right

319

00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:44,644

because of the unbelieving world,

320

00:10:45,102 --> 00:10:46,020

but I think there's also

321

00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:48,397

consequences even for ourselves.

322

00:10:49,732 --> 00:10:51,067

Broadly speaking, a few

323

00:10:51,067 --> 00:10:52,318

misperceptions here and there

324

00:10:52,318 --> 00:10:55,237

in our theology or our understanding of history

325

00:10:55,237 --> 00:10:56,405

probably won't hurt us.

326

00:10:57,281 --> 00:10:58,240

I'm sure that none of us

327

00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,533

are right about everything.

328

00:11:00,242 --> 00:11:03,829

And maybe sometime in some eschatological future,

329

00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:06,582

God will show us everything we were wrong about.

330

00:11:07,208 --> 00:11:08,626

And we might be surprised how many things

331

00:11:08,626 --> 00:11:11,379

we were wrong about, but I think that the better

332

00:11:11,837 --> 00:11:12,880

we can understand things,

333

00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,173

the more closely we can come

334

00:11:14,382 --> 00:11:16,759

to the truth of the Biblical storyline,

335

00:11:17,134 --> 00:11:19,345

it's only going to help us to have a better grasp

336

00:11:19,845 --> 00:11:21,806

on scripture and understand

337

00:11:21,806 --> 00:11:23,724

what God is doing in the world.

338

00:11:25,059 --> 00:11:27,019

Sometimes I think of it like a jigsaw puzzle.

339

00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:28,687

If you're putting a puzzle together,

340

00:11:29,397 --> 00:11:33,150

if you get a piece wrong, you might continue

341

00:11:33,150 --> 00:11:34,527

to be putting your puzzle

342

00:11:34,527 --> 00:11:35,444

together until you realize

343

00:11:35,444 --> 00:11:37,488

that things simply do not work here.

344

00:11:37,488 --> 00:11:38,364

There's something wrong.

345

00:11:39,073 --> 00:11:40,199

And then what are we going to do?

346

00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:41,575

Are we going to keep forcing the pieces

347

00:11:41,575 --> 00:11:43,661

and say it needs to be this way?

348

00:11:43,661 --> 00:11:47,623

Or can we back up and reorganize things

349

00:11:48,124 --> 00:11:49,917

to have a more, better understanding?

350

00:11:50,334 --> 00:11:51,335

And if we don't do that,

351

00:11:51,335 --> 00:11:53,712

the picture is not going to be right in the end.

352

00:11:54,547 --> 00:11:56,465

So yeah, I think it takes a

353

00:11:56,465 --> 00:11:58,426

lot of grace and help from God

354

00:11:58,926 --> 00:12:00,386

to really get a real

355

00:12:00,386 --> 00:12:03,097

perspective of what God is doing

356

00:12:03,097 --> 00:12:04,265

and has done in the world.

357

00:12:06,642 --> 00:12:09,437

What would you say is the point where we start

358

00:12:11,272 --> 00:12:13,983

losing the thread of the story essentially,

359

00:12:14,275 --> 00:12:16,193

because again, if he's called righteous

360

00:12:16,735 --> 00:12:18,154

in the New Testament, where

361

00:12:18,154 --> 00:12:19,864

are we misunderstanding this?

362

00:12:20,364 --> 00:12:21,073

Give us maybe some

363

00:12:21,073 --> 00:12:23,659

positive examples from Lot's life.

364

00:12:24,535 --> 00:12:25,661

Yeah, I mean, this is a big question.

365

00:12:25,661 --> 00:12:26,787

Obviously you wrote a whole book about it,

366

00:12:26,787 --> 00:12:28,080

but at least it hit some of that,

367

00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,332

because I can sense probably

368

00:12:30,332 --> 00:12:31,292

the listeners are hearing this

369

00:12:31,292 --> 00:12:33,502

and they're like, okay, how are

370

00:12:33,502 --> 00:12:34,545

you going to explain this one?

371

00:12:34,795 --> 00:12:37,756

I know that was me when I first heard the topic.

372

00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:39,717

I was like, wow, how is that going to work?

373

00:12:40,259 --> 00:12:42,094

So yeah, start walking me through it.

374

00:12:42,386 --> 00:12:42,678

Sure.

375

00:12:43,345 --> 00:12:47,766

So early in the story, we have Lot as the nephew

376

00:12:48,058 --> 00:12:50,019

of Abraham, Abram at that time.

377

00:12:50,603 --> 00:12:51,437

They're traveling together

378

00:12:51,645 --> 00:12:52,980

and they would go down to Egypt together.

379

00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:54,440

They come back from Egypt together.

380

00:12:55,274 --> 00:12:57,651

And shortly after they've returned from Egypt

381

00:12:57,776 --> 00:12:59,278

within the first year is

382

00:12:59,278 --> 00:13:01,530

when they're going to separate.

383

00:13:02,781 --> 00:13:05,743

And so we have this little spat that goes on

384

00:13:05,784 --> 00:13:08,537

between the two of them, between Lot and Abraham.

385

00:13:09,246 --> 00:13:10,831

And it's like, how is this going to be resolved?

386

00:13:10,831 --> 00:13:13,667

Well, it gets resolved by Abraham proposing

387

00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:15,836

that we separate and go two different ways.

388

00:13:16,045 --> 00:13:18,839

You can go here and I'll go here or vice versa.

389

00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,801

So until this time, I think

390

00:13:22,801 --> 00:13:24,637

there's a lot of discipleship

391

00:13:24,637 --> 00:13:25,221

that was happening.

392

00:13:25,804 --> 00:13:28,140

And I think a lot of mistakes that Lot made

393

00:13:28,724 --> 00:13:30,059

and I think it could have

394

00:13:30,059 --> 00:13:31,018

been handled differently

395

00:13:31,352 --> 00:13:32,520

and better on the part of

396

00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,730

Lot in making that separation.

397

00:13:35,898 --> 00:13:37,274

But oftentimes the claims

398

00:13:37,274 --> 00:13:38,317

that are put against Lot

399

00:13:38,484 --> 00:13:39,860

about this are not true.

400

00:13:40,861 --> 00:13:42,363

People say that he was selfish

401

00:13:42,363 --> 00:13:45,866

or he was a lot of different negative adjectives

402

00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:46,867

to describe that.

403

00:13:48,452 --> 00:13:50,246

However, that's really not the case.

404

00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:52,498

Lot knew that they could

405

00:13:52,498 --> 00:13:53,832

not continue to dwell together

406

00:13:54,083 --> 00:13:56,126

because this land was promised to Abraham.

407

00:13:57,044 --> 00:13:57,962

Oh, that's an important

408

00:13:57,962 --> 00:14:00,381

piece that's often missed.

409

00:14:00,422 --> 00:14:01,465

There was going to need

410

00:14:01,465 --> 00:14:02,967

to be a separation somehow.

411

00:14:04,426 --> 00:14:07,763

A second thing that is a factor here,

412

00:14:08,097 --> 00:14:09,682

and I'm just looking here in my book,

413

00:14:10,057 --> 00:14:11,100

there's a lot of records

414

00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:13,727

that Lot was not necessarily

415

00:14:13,936 --> 00:14:16,021

looking for an evil place to go.

416

00:14:16,564 --> 00:14:17,856

Like people say he had his

417

00:14:17,856 --> 00:14:19,858

heart turned towards Sodom,

418

00:14:19,858 --> 00:14:21,360

like he wanted the wickedness of the city.

419

00:14:22,278 --> 00:14:25,239

The reality is that Sodom was not always evil.

420

00:14:26,448 --> 00:14:27,700

And there's records of that

421

00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:29,410

from Josephus and from Philo.

422

00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:30,953

And even from the scriptures,

423

00:14:31,328 --> 00:14:32,997

it seems to indicate that in the book of Jude.

424

00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:35,082

Jude is a book that's talking

425

00:14:35,082 --> 00:14:37,418

about backsliding and so on.

426

00:14:37,418 --> 00:14:39,336

And it gives this example of Sodom

427

00:14:39,628 --> 00:14:41,338

as being a city that backslid.

428

00:14:42,006 --> 00:14:44,800

And I think a strong case can be made for that,

429

00:14:44,925 --> 00:14:46,302

especially if you give any consideration

430

00:14:46,635 --> 00:14:48,762

for other writers, extra biblical writers.

431

00:14:49,179 --> 00:14:51,432

There's a lot of defense

432

00:14:51,432 --> 00:14:53,100

that can be made for that.

433

00:14:53,726 --> 00:14:56,604

So Lot was not necessarily wanting an excuse

434

00:14:56,604 --> 00:14:59,356

to go to Sodom or anything like that.

435

00:15:00,065 --> 00:15:02,109

So another claim that's made against Lot

436

00:15:02,109 --> 00:15:04,153

is that he was choosing the better land

437

00:15:04,486 --> 00:15:05,696

and leaving Abraham with the

438

00:15:05,696 --> 00:15:06,780

hills or something like that.

439

00:15:07,197 --> 00:15:08,532

It's really not true at all.

440

00:15:09,074 --> 00:15:11,577

When you consider that Abraham was in the center

441

00:15:11,827 --> 00:15:13,120

of the promised land, the

442

00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,414

place that later is called

443

00:15:15,414 --> 00:15:16,832

the land flowing with milk and honey.

444

00:15:18,042 --> 00:15:20,502

So Lot, I believe, did choose a good land,

445

00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:22,087

but he didn't get the best land.

446

00:15:22,838 --> 00:15:23,839

Abraham already was in

447

00:15:23,839 --> 00:15:25,633

the best land to begin with.

448

00:15:26,258 --> 00:15:28,719

I've never thought, I've never heard that.

449

00:15:28,719 --> 00:15:30,846

It's always like, oh, selfish

450

00:15:30,846 --> 00:15:32,848

Lot took the best for himself.

451

00:15:33,682 --> 00:15:34,850

Wonder where that comes from.

452

00:15:35,225 --> 00:15:36,727

Okay, yeah, interesting.

453

00:15:37,061 --> 00:15:38,395

So there's a few things like that

454

00:15:38,395 --> 00:15:40,022

that I think we could derive

455

00:15:40,022 --> 00:15:41,273

from Scripture if we would.

456

00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:42,983

But we have our

457

00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:45,444

preconceptions that kind of override that

458

00:15:45,569 --> 00:15:48,864

and we fail to realize that Abraham was already

459

00:15:49,114 --> 00:15:50,032

in the promised land.

460

00:15:50,032 --> 00:15:51,825

God said to him that, you

461

00:15:51,825 --> 00:15:52,951

know, look to your north

462

00:15:52,951 --> 00:15:54,870

and south and east and west, everywhere you look,

463

00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:56,580

this is where your land is.

464

00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:58,040

He was in the center of that land.

465

00:15:58,791 --> 00:16:01,043

So yeah, I think that's where it begins.

466

00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:03,253

And then where it goes from there, of course,

467

00:16:03,253 --> 00:16:06,840

is that Lot is in Sodom and he's not there long

468

00:16:07,424 --> 00:16:09,426

until the land of Sodom

469

00:16:09,426 --> 00:16:10,636

and the surrounding cities

470

00:16:11,095 --> 00:16:14,264

are taken captive by the kings from the north.

471

00:16:15,099 --> 00:16:18,268

And then of course, Abraham in huge compassion

472

00:16:18,268 --> 00:16:19,728

goes and rescues him.

473

00:16:20,562 --> 00:16:21,689

I think that was a very

474

00:16:21,689 --> 00:16:24,024

pivotal time in Lot's life.

475

00:16:24,525 --> 00:16:26,694

And from there forward to the end,

476

00:16:27,027 --> 00:16:29,488

I don't think that there's anything negative

477

00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:30,489

to say about him.

478

00:16:30,489 --> 00:16:31,448

I think he learned to walk

479

00:16:31,448 --> 00:16:32,991

in the footsteps of Abraham.

480

00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:35,869

And I think there's a strong theme

481

00:16:36,453 --> 00:16:38,831

in the story of discipleship.

482

00:16:39,581 --> 00:16:41,250

And I think that was like the key point

483

00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:44,128

where Abraham returned good for some of the evil

484

00:16:44,461 --> 00:16:45,504

that had come from Lot.

485

00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:48,424

And going forward after that point,

486

00:16:49,049 --> 00:16:50,843

I think only good can be said of Lot.

487

00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:53,220

Okay, but where are the objections?

488

00:16:54,304 --> 00:16:57,808

Like what do you start doing with people saying,

489

00:16:57,808 --> 00:16:59,768

oh, well, he was living in this wicked city

490

00:16:59,768 --> 00:17:00,769

and that's terrible.

491

00:17:01,103 --> 00:17:02,396

And you know, he got too

492

00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:05,357

wrapped up in the world of Sodom

493

00:17:05,357 --> 00:17:06,900

and all kinds of things in

494

00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:08,944

the story that are brought out.

495

00:17:08,944 --> 00:17:11,739

Do you wanna hit any of those common objections

496

00:17:11,739 --> 00:17:12,948

that are leveled?

497

00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:15,284

Even Peter says that's not true

498

00:17:15,701 --> 00:17:16,702

because Peter says that it

499

00:17:16,702 --> 00:17:18,787

vexed his righteous soul every day.

500

00:17:20,038 --> 00:17:20,873

And so we know that he

501

00:17:20,873 --> 00:17:22,082

wasn't feeling at home there.

502

00:17:23,417 --> 00:17:25,836

But isn't, okay, sure, okay.

503

00:17:26,003 --> 00:17:27,379

But I've heard people say,

504

00:17:27,421 --> 00:17:29,715

well, he's sitting in the gate of the city.

505

00:17:29,715 --> 00:17:32,634

That shows like he's, you

506

00:17:32,634 --> 00:17:34,219

know, whatever, whatever.

507

00:17:34,303 --> 00:17:36,013

That's extrapolated to say, okay,

508

00:17:36,013 --> 00:17:37,139

and you see he's part of

509

00:17:37,139 --> 00:17:38,140

the workings of this city,

510

00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:39,183

which is clearly evil.

511

00:17:39,933 --> 00:17:42,853

That's, therefore he's bad or that wasn't right.

512

00:17:44,062 --> 00:17:44,605

What about that?

513

00:17:44,855 --> 00:17:45,022

Yep.

514

00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:47,775

So there's a lot of records that Sodom became

515

00:17:47,775 --> 00:17:49,777

a very wicked city in that

516

00:17:49,777 --> 00:17:51,862

they would oppress strangers.

517

00:17:52,529 --> 00:17:54,907

And if outsiders came to their city,

518

00:17:55,282 --> 00:17:57,326

they would persecute them,

519

00:17:57,326 --> 00:17:59,203

even kill them and so on.

520

00:18:00,204 --> 00:18:02,706

And, you know, even in some of the prophets,

521

00:18:03,207 --> 00:18:08,003

there's a telling of what God had against Sodom

522

00:18:08,003 --> 00:18:09,588

and the reason for which it was destroyed

523

00:18:09,963 --> 00:18:12,216

was lack of compassion and fullness of bread

524

00:18:12,216 --> 00:18:13,091

and things like that.

525

00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:14,551

Do you know where is that?

526

00:18:14,843 --> 00:18:16,136

I have a document of the--

527

00:18:16,178 --> 00:18:17,763

You was probably in the footnotes somewhere.

528

00:18:18,305 --> 00:18:19,348

That is fascinating,

529

00:18:19,348 --> 00:18:20,140

because now that's a part

530

00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:21,517

of the story you don't hear.

531

00:18:21,809 --> 00:18:24,394

Is that Sodom getting judged for what we call it,

532

00:18:24,394 --> 00:18:25,521

you know, lack of hospitality

533

00:18:25,771 --> 00:18:28,565

or not being willing to share with those in need,

534

00:18:28,565 --> 00:18:30,275

et cetera, et cetera, you know, you could list the...

535

00:18:31,527 --> 00:18:33,779

That's one I don't know if I had ever heard of

536

00:18:33,904 --> 00:18:35,989

until I read through your book and was like,

537

00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:37,533

wait a minute, you know,

538

00:18:37,533 --> 00:18:38,659

I missed that completely.

539

00:18:39,618 --> 00:18:41,286

Sure, yeah, and then I think

540

00:18:41,286 --> 00:18:42,412

what was actually happening

541

00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:45,249

is that Lot was in the city gates in the evening

542

00:18:45,582 --> 00:18:47,125

because he was watching for strangers

543

00:18:47,376 --> 00:18:48,335

who may be coming through

544

00:18:48,669 --> 00:18:50,003

because he wanted to rescue them

545

00:18:50,546 --> 00:18:52,339

from the people of the city.

546

00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:54,383

And so what he's doing is

547

00:18:54,383 --> 00:18:55,843

he sees some people coming.

548

00:18:56,176 --> 00:18:56,885

It turns out to be the

549

00:18:56,885 --> 00:18:58,178

angels, but he didn't know that.

550

00:18:58,929 --> 00:19:00,806

And he's there to take them to his house

551

00:19:00,973 --> 00:19:03,475

because he wants to protect them and save them.

552

00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:06,979

So he wasn't there as a judge of the city

553

00:19:06,979 --> 00:19:07,938

or anything like that.

554

00:19:08,272 --> 00:19:10,023

He was there with the

555

00:19:10,023 --> 00:19:11,775

intent to evangelize the city.

556

00:19:12,109 --> 00:19:14,444

He was in the city gates to protect the people

557

00:19:14,611 --> 00:19:19,283

who come through from the people of the city.

558

00:19:20,784 --> 00:19:21,869

I wonder if some of this

559

00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:23,871

is just misconceptions about

560

00:19:26,415 --> 00:19:27,791

if someone is living in

561

00:19:27,791 --> 00:19:29,001

this really wicked environment,

562

00:19:29,459 --> 00:19:31,712

we make assumptions that therefore they are

563

00:19:32,588 --> 00:19:34,047

capitulating to that lifestyle.

564

00:19:34,256 --> 00:19:36,592

They are living ungodly

565

00:19:36,592 --> 00:19:38,343

because they're in a location

566

00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:41,388

that is obviously evil, right?

567

00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:42,598

Because Sodom is judged.

568

00:19:43,473 --> 00:19:46,059

But that seems like that's just an assumption.

569

00:19:46,351 --> 00:19:47,936

That doesn't mean that that

570

00:19:47,936 --> 00:19:49,229

was actually the case, right?

571

00:19:49,229 --> 00:19:50,063

That's exactly correct.

572

00:19:50,105 --> 00:19:51,982

Like why is that assumption there though?

573

00:19:52,232 --> 00:19:53,233

Like why do we be like, oh, well,

574

00:19:53,233 --> 00:19:54,818

because you were living in an area that was evil,

575

00:19:54,860 --> 00:19:55,777

therefore you're evil.

576

00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:56,445

Right.

577

00:19:57,070 --> 00:19:58,530

That's oversimplified, but yeah.

578

00:19:58,572 --> 00:20:00,866

It is, but nonetheless, it's a good point.

579

00:20:01,325 --> 00:20:03,285

So one thing you need to think about is

580

00:20:03,368 --> 00:20:05,579

Lot's daughters were there in the city as well.

581

00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,373

They grew up until they were,

582

00:20:08,624 --> 00:20:10,459

the older one was about 17 years old

583

00:20:10,751 --> 00:20:12,085

at the time that they left

584

00:20:12,336 --> 00:20:13,879

just prior to the city being destroyed.

585

00:20:14,755 --> 00:20:19,426

And in that time, they were not defiled

586

00:20:19,843 --> 00:20:20,636

by the people of the city.

587

00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:22,930

They were still virgins at 17 years old.

588

00:20:23,513 --> 00:20:25,557

And in Sodom, that's quite an accomplishment

589

00:20:25,807 --> 00:20:28,936

for the parent to raise them to that place.

590

00:20:29,853 --> 00:20:31,480

And then they left from there.

591

00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:36,234

So of course, the daughters were already engaged

592

00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:40,197

to men of the city to be married.

593

00:20:41,323 --> 00:20:43,116

And so those daughters needed to decide,

594

00:20:43,408 --> 00:20:44,076

what am I going to do?

595

00:20:44,618 --> 00:20:49,039

Am I going to go and remain with the city

596

00:20:49,289 --> 00:20:50,874

or am I going to go with my father?

597

00:20:51,667 --> 00:20:54,044

And they chose to stick with their father,

598

00:20:54,336 --> 00:20:56,296

which I think shows character on their part.

599

00:20:57,464 --> 00:20:58,840

But then what about people saying,

600

00:20:59,174 --> 00:21:01,551

oh, because Lot didn't leave right away,

601

00:21:01,635 --> 00:21:02,427

that's him saying, oh, I

602

00:21:02,427 --> 00:21:03,303

don't really wanna leave.

603

00:21:03,303 --> 00:21:04,179

I wanna stay here.

604

00:21:04,471 --> 00:21:06,098

The angels say, no, it's gonna be destroyed.

605

00:21:06,139 --> 00:21:08,100

And it's not until almost daybreak

606

00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:09,267

that they actually flee.

607

00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:10,936

Again, I've heard people

608

00:21:10,936 --> 00:21:12,896

say, well, therefore that shows,

609

00:21:12,896 --> 00:21:13,605

he didn't really wanna

610

00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:14,731

leave, but it was finally like,

611

00:21:14,731 --> 00:21:17,401

okay, I guess I have to, I have no choice.

612

00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:19,820

Is that just a misconstrued

613

00:21:19,820 --> 00:21:20,737

or is that putting our own

614

00:21:20,737 --> 00:21:21,863

bias into the text there?

615

00:21:22,239 --> 00:21:24,741

Right, yeah, it is not the accurate picture

616

00:21:24,992 --> 00:21:25,534

of what happened.

617

00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:26,910

I think he did want to leave.

618

00:21:27,244 --> 00:21:29,079

I think he was willing to follow,

619

00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:30,330

but there were some things that happened

620

00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:31,248

that were pretty intense

621

00:21:31,248 --> 00:21:32,874

immediately prior to that.

622

00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:37,421

One being that when the house was surrounded

623

00:21:37,963 --> 00:21:39,339

and Lot is on the inside

624

00:21:39,339 --> 00:21:41,049

and he goes out to the people

625

00:21:41,258 --> 00:21:46,888

to implore them to not pursue these angels.

626

00:21:47,139 --> 00:21:49,850

He says, my brothers don't do this wicked thing.

627

00:21:50,851 --> 00:21:53,478

During that encounter, they virtually killed him,

628

00:21:53,478 --> 00:21:54,938

according to other records,

629

00:21:55,522 --> 00:21:56,690

which would have been

630

00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:59,443

understood through tradition

631

00:21:59,943 --> 00:22:02,070

and probably understood by Peter as well.

632

00:22:03,113 --> 00:22:06,616

So they were, he was not

633

00:22:06,616 --> 00:22:08,326

in a strong physical state.

634

00:22:08,326 --> 00:22:09,036

He was an old man.

635

00:22:10,162 --> 00:22:13,123

And yeah, so I think he wanted to leave.

636

00:22:13,623 --> 00:22:16,460

There was a lot of reasons

637

00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:18,545

that it was difficult to leave,

638

00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,882

but nonetheless, they did, they did leave.

639

00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:23,675

And we don't have any indication

640

00:22:23,675 --> 00:22:25,177

that he was unwilling to leave.

641

00:22:26,303 --> 00:22:26,970

That makes sense.

642

00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:27,637

You're basically saying

643

00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:30,015

that's us putting our bias

644

00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:31,099

into the text when the text

645

00:22:31,099 --> 00:22:32,601

really doesn't actually say that.

646

00:22:32,642 --> 00:22:34,936

He was up all night and had almost been killed

647

00:22:35,187 --> 00:22:36,146

by the people of the city.

648

00:22:36,980 --> 00:22:38,940

And so it was, I think he

649

00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:40,400

was in a poor physical state.

650

00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:44,071

And it's kind of strange to assume

651

00:22:44,362 --> 00:22:46,239

that he should be immediately ready to go

652

00:22:46,823 --> 00:22:47,824

because of the word of some

653

00:22:47,824 --> 00:22:49,493

strangers that he didn't know.

654

00:22:50,577 --> 00:22:52,162

That's kind of a good point, yeah.

655

00:22:52,579 --> 00:22:53,497

He'd need to be persuaded

656

00:22:53,914 --> 00:22:56,500

that these are really messengers from God.

657

00:22:56,917 --> 00:22:58,210

And I wonder if there's also the element

658

00:22:58,376 --> 00:23:02,714

of quick trying to get other friends,

659

00:23:02,714 --> 00:23:04,466

other people to come with you,

660

00:23:04,466 --> 00:23:07,803

trying to save others to convince them to leave.

661

00:23:07,803 --> 00:23:09,429

I don't know if there'd be any elements of that.

662

00:23:09,429 --> 00:23:10,305

Of course, you can't know

663

00:23:10,305 --> 00:23:12,390

what happened in those hours,

664

00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,352

but ultimately they did flee.

665

00:23:15,894 --> 00:23:17,687

And I think that's the key piece there.

666

00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,482

Yeah, are there other chunks of this story

667

00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:21,691

that you wanna address,

668

00:23:22,025 --> 00:23:23,777

specifically other objections

669

00:23:23,944 --> 00:23:26,822

or points that we might have missed here?

670

00:23:26,905 --> 00:23:28,532

Right, so once you have a

671

00:23:28,532 --> 00:23:31,201

certain perception of the story,

672

00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:33,745

then you begin to think that

673

00:23:33,745 --> 00:23:35,413

everything is substantiating

674

00:23:35,664 --> 00:23:37,082

that, you know, it's confirmation bias.

675

00:23:38,041 --> 00:23:39,042

And so because of that,

676

00:23:39,042 --> 00:23:40,710

there's actually a lot of

677

00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:42,420

objections that are raised.

678

00:23:43,213 --> 00:23:44,297

And one of them, of course,

679

00:23:44,297 --> 00:23:47,092

is what happened in the house.

680

00:23:47,467 --> 00:23:48,468

The house was surrounded

681

00:23:48,468 --> 00:23:50,804

the night of the destruction.

682

00:23:51,555 --> 00:23:53,140

A lot went out to these men

683

00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:55,058

who wanted to have access to the angels.

684

00:23:55,684 --> 00:23:58,186

And then the claim is oftentimes made

685

00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:01,773

that Lot was offering his daughters

686

00:24:01,773 --> 00:24:03,442

in exchange for the angels.

687

00:24:04,734 --> 00:24:07,863

And that simply is not what was going on there.

688

00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:09,990

And I treat that in some

689

00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:11,408

detail in the book as well.

690

00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:13,410

But yeah, there's a much

691

00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:14,995

better way to understand that.

692

00:24:16,913 --> 00:24:20,125

I think this is maybe a bit of a lesson here in,

693

00:24:20,917 --> 00:24:22,752

like you were saying, confirmation bias,

694

00:24:22,752 --> 00:24:24,212

or where you have a perspective

695

00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,548

of how you think the story goes.

696

00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:28,049

And then when you read the text,

697

00:24:28,049 --> 00:24:30,135

you can put that on the story.

698

00:24:31,511 --> 00:24:32,804

And so it seems to me one of the things

699

00:24:33,054 --> 00:24:35,015

that you're trying to help us with

700

00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:37,893

is try to pull away those assumptions

701

00:24:37,893 --> 00:24:39,227

when we come to the text of Scripture.

702

00:24:40,103 --> 00:24:43,023

And instead of reading it through our own lens

703

00:24:43,273 --> 00:24:44,441

and perceptions, it's like,

704

00:24:44,441 --> 00:24:46,484

what is the text actually saying?

705

00:24:46,484 --> 00:24:48,320

And try to get back to that as best we can

706

00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:49,613

while also knowing, hey, you know,

707

00:24:50,488 --> 00:24:51,948

we're living thousands of

708

00:24:51,948 --> 00:24:52,741

years after this happened.

709

00:24:52,741 --> 00:24:54,492

It's gonna be very hard to remove all the biases

710

00:24:54,701 --> 00:24:55,076

and opinions.

711

00:24:55,702 --> 00:24:57,412

Is there more you'd like to say on that?

712

00:24:58,246 --> 00:24:59,164

There would probably be a

713

00:24:59,164 --> 00:25:00,165

lot more that could be said,

714

00:25:00,373 --> 00:25:02,209

even about the flight and

715

00:25:02,209 --> 00:25:04,753

his request to go to Zoar

716

00:25:05,295 --> 00:25:06,338

instead of going to the mountains.

717

00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:07,589

And I think all those

718

00:25:07,589 --> 00:25:09,007

things have excellent answers.

719

00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:11,843

One thing that we're missing is history.

720

00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:15,805

We don't have the broader tradition

721

00:25:16,139 --> 00:25:18,266

of how the story was

722

00:25:18,266 --> 00:25:21,061

understood by people for millennia.

723

00:25:22,062 --> 00:25:23,688

And so if we only look at the text

724

00:25:23,939 --> 00:25:24,981

and we're coming to the text

725

00:25:24,981 --> 00:25:27,567

of Scripture with our bias,

726

00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:29,402

I think it's not too difficult

727

00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:33,198

to kind of have our bias confirmed there.

728

00:25:35,158 --> 00:25:37,535

So we went through some of the story of Lot,

729

00:25:37,786 --> 00:25:38,703

answered some of the objections.

730

00:25:38,954 --> 00:25:40,747

Of course, you can't go into all the full detail

731

00:25:40,747 --> 00:25:42,958

when people can look up your book or something

732

00:25:42,958 --> 00:25:43,917

if they wanna go deeper.

733

00:25:44,834 --> 00:25:47,128

But let's look at it from a different angle.

734

00:25:47,128 --> 00:25:48,755

What are some positive lessons

735

00:25:49,172 --> 00:25:51,466

that we can pull from the example of Lot?

736

00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:52,175

Sure.

737

00:25:52,926 --> 00:25:54,678

Yeah, so a few things that

738

00:25:54,678 --> 00:25:55,553

come to mind immediately.

739

00:25:55,804 --> 00:25:58,682

One would be hospitality and generosity.

740

00:25:59,391 --> 00:26:01,142

And we have that certainly in the case of Abraham

741

00:26:01,810 --> 00:26:03,019

and also in the case of Lot.

742

00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:04,187

Then in the New Testament,

743

00:26:04,604 --> 00:26:07,857

it tells us that there were some

744

00:26:07,857 --> 00:26:10,110

who because of their hospitality

745

00:26:10,443 --> 00:26:12,862

entertained angels being unaware.

746

00:26:13,655 --> 00:26:16,116

And that would fit to both Abraham and Lot.

747

00:26:16,408 --> 00:26:17,534

That's a really good point.

748

00:26:17,534 --> 00:26:18,952

See, it's very easy to say,

749

00:26:18,952 --> 00:26:19,953

oh yeah, yeah, that was Abraham.

750

00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:21,579

But it was also Lot as well.

751

00:26:22,038 --> 00:26:22,664

That's a great point.

752

00:26:23,748 --> 00:26:25,250

So those are good lessons,

753

00:26:25,875 --> 00:26:27,002

hospitality and generosity.

754

00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:30,046

But oftentimes we think those are good manners.

755

00:26:30,463 --> 00:26:32,966

This is just being nice or something.

756

00:26:32,966 --> 00:26:33,633

But it's actually something

757

00:26:33,633 --> 00:26:35,635

that God cares deeply about.

758

00:26:36,594 --> 00:26:38,471

And even so much so that

759

00:26:38,471 --> 00:26:39,931

they were visited by the angels

760

00:26:40,098 --> 00:26:40,640

because of that.

761

00:26:41,141 --> 00:26:42,434

That's pretty major.

762

00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,147

But as you ask the question,

763

00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,565

what lessons can we learn?

764

00:26:49,065 --> 00:26:49,816

I'd like to give one

765

00:26:49,816 --> 00:26:51,985

little warning to that question.

766

00:26:52,986 --> 00:26:55,071

Now we live in a time where there's oftentimes

767

00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:57,032

a rush to application.

768

00:26:58,033 --> 00:27:01,536

So too often sermons are given

769

00:27:02,203 --> 00:27:03,997

with only a very little text.

770

00:27:04,414 --> 00:27:05,290

And even in this case,

771

00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:08,084

I came across a blog about Lot.

772

00:27:08,752 --> 00:27:11,629

And it had very little Scripture.

773

00:27:12,213 --> 00:27:13,715

And I actually counted the words.

774

00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:17,469

There was a few quick notes about a few verses.

775

00:27:17,552 --> 00:27:20,221

There was like no exegetical work done at all.

776

00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:24,059

And then 94% of this article was application.

777

00:27:25,435 --> 00:27:28,521

And I think that in this case,

778

00:27:28,521 --> 00:27:29,481

the person had a very wrong

779

00:27:29,481 --> 00:27:31,107

understanding of the storyline.

780

00:27:31,483 --> 00:27:32,192

So if you have a wrong

781

00:27:32,192 --> 00:27:33,360

understanding of the storyline,

782

00:27:33,693 --> 00:27:36,196

then the application also can be very wrong.

783

00:27:36,738 --> 00:27:38,740

There was a writer, Douglas Stewart,

784

00:27:39,532 --> 00:27:40,658

and he wrote a book called

785

00:27:40,658 --> 00:27:41,826

"Old Testament Exegesis."

786

00:27:42,619 --> 00:27:44,037

And in that book, he says,

787

00:27:44,037 --> 00:27:45,080

speaking about his audience,

788

00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:46,456

he says, "They need to be

789

00:27:46,456 --> 00:27:47,749

shown how the application

790

00:27:47,999 --> 00:27:49,584

is based on the proper comprehension

791

00:27:50,293 --> 00:27:51,378

of the passage's meaning.

792

00:27:52,170 --> 00:27:53,213

And they will probably not

793

00:27:53,213 --> 00:27:54,464

take the application to heart

794

00:27:54,589 --> 00:27:56,007

unless this is clear to them."

795

00:27:57,133 --> 00:27:58,635

So we can preach application,

796

00:27:59,094 --> 00:28:01,221

but if people don't understand how that's rooted

797

00:28:01,721 --> 00:28:03,014

in proper exegesis,

798

00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,351

then it's probably not going to stick very well.

799

00:28:07,644 --> 00:28:09,020

And I think because of that,

800

00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:12,357

what can happen is that people can give

801

00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:14,109

heartfelt sermons of application,

802

00:28:14,943 --> 00:28:16,236

but then their listeners will

803

00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:17,362

go listen to the next preacher

804

00:28:17,779 --> 00:28:18,696

who's saying something different

805

00:28:19,072 --> 00:28:20,698

and can easily be swept

806

00:28:20,698 --> 00:28:21,741

into a different direction

807

00:28:22,409 --> 00:28:24,911

because it's not well-rooted in the text.

808

00:28:26,704 --> 00:28:29,499

So I would just give that little caution there.

809

00:28:29,874 --> 00:28:31,459

But in response to your question,

810

00:28:32,293 --> 00:28:34,129

besides hospitality and generosity,

811

00:28:34,754 --> 00:28:36,339

there's also a thread of discipleship

812

00:28:36,673 --> 00:28:37,799

that's woven through the

813

00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:39,926

story with, first of all,

814

00:28:39,926 --> 00:28:42,971

Abraham allowing Lot to come with him.

815

00:28:43,012 --> 00:28:44,556

And then he's discipling him.

816

00:28:44,764 --> 00:28:46,182

Jesus said that his

817

00:28:46,182 --> 00:28:47,684

disciple is not above his teacher,

818

00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:50,145

but everyone who is perfectly trained

819

00:28:50,145 --> 00:28:51,229

will be like his teacher.

820

00:28:51,688 --> 00:28:53,106

And I think that's exactly what happened

821

00:28:53,106 --> 00:28:54,023

in the case of Lot,

822

00:28:54,607 --> 00:28:55,942

where Lot became just like

823

00:28:55,942 --> 00:28:57,277

his teacher, like Abraham,

824

00:28:57,861 --> 00:28:58,903

through the discipleship.

825

00:28:59,988 --> 00:29:01,948

So yeah, I think there could be a whole sermon

826

00:29:03,324 --> 00:29:05,160

illustrating discipleship

827

00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,662

functions from the story.

828

00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:10,957

And in both the case of Abraham and Lot,

829

00:29:10,957 --> 00:29:12,208

they were both evangelistic,

830

00:29:13,042 --> 00:29:15,044

very enthusiastic about evangelism.

831

00:29:15,962 --> 00:29:17,881

History, extra-Biblical history would show

832

00:29:18,339 --> 00:29:22,302

that Abraham placed his tent at a crossroads

833

00:29:23,595 --> 00:29:26,639

because he wanted to meet passerby's,

834

00:29:26,639 --> 00:29:28,766

because he wanted to be generous and hospitable.

835

00:29:29,767 --> 00:29:31,728

So that's, I think, very interesting.

836

00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:34,230

I think from the same story,

837

00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:35,440

we could learn about intercession,

838

00:29:35,982 --> 00:29:37,859

we could learn about conflict resolution,

839

00:29:38,568 --> 00:29:39,152

we could learn about

840

00:29:39,152 --> 00:29:41,154

trusting God without questioning.

841

00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:44,073

And of course, in the case of Lot's wife,

842

00:29:44,073 --> 00:29:46,159

we could learn about not turning back in the end.

843

00:29:46,868 --> 00:29:48,328

So yeah, I think there's a lot of lessons

844

00:29:48,328 --> 00:29:49,454

that are here for us.

845

00:29:50,705 --> 00:29:52,081

Yeah, so a lot of lessons,

846

00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:54,834

but also not be hasty into application.

847

00:29:55,293 --> 00:29:56,211

That's a really good point.

848

00:29:56,628 --> 00:29:59,797

Yeah, which actually segues quite nicely

849

00:29:59,797 --> 00:30:01,424

into the other question I had here.

850

00:30:02,008 --> 00:30:02,884

So zooming out a bit,

851

00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:05,970

what are some points that you're making

852

00:30:06,179 --> 00:30:07,764

that can help us study and

853

00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:09,516

understand Scripture better,

854

00:30:09,724 --> 00:30:11,684

just on the whole, what are some principles?

855

00:30:11,684 --> 00:30:11,893

Sure.

856

00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:13,353

And then also how can

857

00:30:13,353 --> 00:30:14,646

this help us identify biases

858

00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:15,647

and assumptions too?

859

00:30:16,022 --> 00:30:17,524

And we've already touched on some of this,

860

00:30:17,524 --> 00:30:19,692

but maybe you wanna dig into that a bit more.

861

00:30:19,734 --> 00:30:19,901

Sure.

862

00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:22,862

So I think history is hugely underrated.

863

00:30:23,488 --> 00:30:24,531

History, history, history.

864

00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:27,659

So there is a quote that

865

00:30:27,659 --> 00:30:29,369

if it's new, it's not true.

866

00:30:29,869 --> 00:30:31,579

And if it's true, it's not new.

867

00:30:32,622 --> 00:30:34,082

Oh, I've not heard that before.

868

00:30:34,457 --> 00:30:34,958

That's pretty good.

869

00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:37,085

Yeah, like Solomon said,

870

00:30:37,085 --> 00:30:38,169

there's nothing new under the sun.

871

00:30:38,545 --> 00:30:40,088

Like everything that's been,

872

00:30:41,047 --> 00:30:43,174

we're not coming up with new, good ideas

873

00:30:43,174 --> 00:30:44,425

that haven't already been

874

00:30:44,425 --> 00:30:46,761

elaborated on in the past.

875

00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:48,555

And I think it takes

876

00:30:48,555 --> 00:30:50,682

maybe a little bit of audacity

877

00:30:51,266 --> 00:30:54,143

to disregard the people who have come before us.

878

00:30:55,061 --> 00:30:56,312

In the case of Lot, we

879

00:30:56,312 --> 00:30:58,356

have 3,000 years of tradition.

880

00:30:59,357 --> 00:31:01,859

And yet today, there's almost no commentary.

881

00:31:02,485 --> 00:31:04,320

There's no commentary that I'm aware of

882

00:31:04,779 --> 00:31:06,489

that's favorable to him, except mine.

883

00:31:07,949 --> 00:31:09,576

Wow, that's really interesting.

884

00:31:09,576 --> 00:31:10,827

So it might be considered fringe

885

00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,537

for me to write a book that I don't have

886

00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:16,499

any competing works today.

887

00:31:17,166 --> 00:31:18,501

But I think that I'm on the side

888

00:31:18,626 --> 00:31:20,128

of thousands of years of history.

889

00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,338

And I think that's pretty

890

00:31:22,338 --> 00:31:24,424

compelling and solid footing.

891

00:31:26,926 --> 00:31:28,678

People have said that we shouldn't read

892

00:31:30,013 --> 00:31:31,139

only our own generation.

893

00:31:31,139 --> 00:31:32,724

We should read outside of our generation.

894

00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,519

Amen, like we have resources today

895

00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:38,980

like we never had before from history,

896

00:31:39,439 --> 00:31:40,648

just at the click of a button,

897

00:31:40,982 --> 00:31:42,984

so much that we have available to us,

898

00:31:42,984 --> 00:31:44,444

we should be making the best use of that.

899

00:31:45,737 --> 00:31:47,155

That's a really good point.

900

00:31:47,655 --> 00:31:49,157

We've had David Bercot

901

00:31:49,157 --> 00:31:50,908

on this podcast a few times.

902

00:31:50,908 --> 00:31:52,243

And I'm not sure what the

903

00:31:52,243 --> 00:31:53,244

release schedule will be,

904

00:31:53,244 --> 00:31:54,454

but we were doing one with him.

905

00:31:55,622 --> 00:31:58,708

We just filmed it two days ago on Romans

906

00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:01,586

and specifically Romans 9 and predestination

907

00:32:01,878 --> 00:32:03,796

and some of these interpretations with the text.

908

00:32:04,297 --> 00:32:04,672

And he's like, well,

909

00:32:04,672 --> 00:32:06,382

yeah, but let's start reading

910

00:32:06,382 --> 00:32:08,259

like how different people looked at this

911

00:32:08,384 --> 00:32:09,761

throughout history and just start realizing,

912

00:32:10,053 --> 00:32:12,221

oh, okay, there's actually lots of different ways

913

00:32:12,221 --> 00:32:12,930

to look at this.

914

00:32:13,723 --> 00:32:15,683

Where right now, especially

915

00:32:15,683 --> 00:32:17,935

I come from like the South

916

00:32:17,935 --> 00:32:19,687

where it's like the Southern Baptist style of,

917

00:32:19,687 --> 00:32:22,190

it's this way, and it's like, well, okay,

918

00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:23,900

but historically you can look at it this way

919

00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,027

and like, well, but this church father said this.

920

00:32:26,027 --> 00:32:26,903

And it's like, oh, we

921

00:32:26,903 --> 00:32:27,945

should really be aware of that.

922

00:32:27,945 --> 00:32:29,697

So we ended up just doing a whole episode on

923

00:32:30,239 --> 00:32:31,449

what are those things

924

00:32:31,449 --> 00:32:32,325

that people have been saying

925

00:32:32,408 --> 00:32:33,993

historically for a really long time.

926

00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:35,745

And we just forgot, and

927

00:32:35,745 --> 00:32:37,705

it's like, it's right there.

928

00:32:37,705 --> 00:32:39,666

You can go look it up, you can go read these guys

929

00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:42,168

and learn from what they said.

930

00:32:42,168 --> 00:32:43,920

It doesn't mean they're inspired and perfect

931

00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:44,837

and got it all right.

932

00:32:45,463 --> 00:32:47,423

But I'm just, I think

933

00:32:47,423 --> 00:32:48,591

you're really on to something there

934

00:32:48,966 --> 00:32:50,426

with history, especially

935

00:32:50,426 --> 00:32:52,762

though people find history

936

00:32:52,762 --> 00:32:53,346

kind of boring.

937

00:32:54,013 --> 00:32:56,891

So I'm not really sure how we can overcome that.

938

00:32:56,933 --> 00:32:58,893

It's amazing how quickly we forget history.

939

00:32:59,686 --> 00:33:00,353

If we're only reading

940

00:33:00,353 --> 00:33:01,979

what's been in the last 50 years,

941

00:33:02,313 --> 00:33:04,524

we're going to totally be oblivious

942

00:33:04,982 --> 00:33:06,317

to everything before that.

943

00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:09,070

And I think it can cause some pride

944

00:33:09,612 --> 00:33:11,280

because we're the ones who got this right,

945

00:33:11,572 --> 00:33:14,617

not realizing that there's millennia ahead of us.

946

00:33:14,951 --> 00:33:16,786

Yeah, it reminds me of

947

00:33:16,786 --> 00:33:18,996

something C.S. Lewis wrote.

948

00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:20,206

I wish I could remember the quote,

949

00:33:20,206 --> 00:33:21,749

but his friends would make

950

00:33:21,749 --> 00:33:23,209

almost like joke with him

951

00:33:23,459 --> 00:33:25,586

how he had just no clue what was happening

952

00:33:25,878 --> 00:33:28,256

in the modern day because he just wouldn't read

953

00:33:28,256 --> 00:33:29,173

the newspapers, you know?

954

00:33:29,465 --> 00:33:30,925

And he's like, why would I do that?

955

00:33:30,925 --> 00:33:31,759

When I could be reading

956

00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:33,720

thousands of years of ideas

957

00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,346

and history and understand all this stuff.

958

00:33:35,346 --> 00:33:36,889

And he was way more interested in doing that.

959

00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:39,559

And of course he made a strong case.

960

00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:40,560

Well, that's why we should be reading

961

00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,019

the early church and things.

962

00:33:42,103 --> 00:33:42,353

Absolutely.

963

00:33:43,354 --> 00:33:44,605

And that always kind of stuck with me.

964

00:33:44,605 --> 00:33:46,107

It's like, oh, that's a good point.

965

00:33:46,858 --> 00:33:49,986

Yeah, I'm hearing one of

966

00:33:49,986 --> 00:33:51,779

the things you're outlining is

967

00:33:52,947 --> 00:33:56,200

it is worth our effort to try to understand

968

00:33:56,325 --> 00:33:57,076

more of the historical

969

00:33:57,076 --> 00:34:01,330

context around various scriptures.

970

00:34:01,664 --> 00:34:03,875

And obviously we're using Lot as a case study,

971

00:34:03,875 --> 00:34:05,001

but you could do this for a

972

00:34:05,001 --> 00:34:06,127

lot of other things as well.

973

00:34:06,127 --> 00:34:06,335

Exactly.

974

00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:07,086

Yeah.

975

00:34:08,045 --> 00:34:09,922

Well, as we bring this episode to a close,

976

00:34:09,922 --> 00:34:11,048

are there other pieces

977

00:34:11,048 --> 00:34:12,341

you wanna add to this story?

978

00:34:12,341 --> 00:34:13,593

Anything we might've missed as

979

00:34:13,593 --> 00:34:14,761

we were going through it here?

980

00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:16,345

Yeah, the only thing I would mention is,

981

00:34:16,345 --> 00:34:17,096

what you already mentioned,

982

00:34:17,555 --> 00:34:18,848

this is really a case study,

983

00:34:19,265 --> 00:34:20,975

I think, of how to look

984

00:34:20,975 --> 00:34:22,268

at history through the eyes

985

00:34:22,435 --> 00:34:23,686

of those who went before us

986

00:34:23,686 --> 00:34:25,021

and the historical perspective.

987

00:34:25,813 --> 00:34:27,148

So yeah, I think many, many

988

00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:28,399

more books should be written,

989

00:34:28,858 --> 00:34:31,110

rediscovering what has happened before.

990

00:34:32,236 --> 00:34:34,781

Well, so do you have another book coming

991

00:34:34,864 --> 00:34:37,992

that might give us another case study?

992

00:34:38,284 --> 00:34:39,744

Well, time will tell.

993

00:34:41,370 --> 00:34:43,456

All right, well, hey, thanks for coming on

994

00:34:43,539 --> 00:34:44,832

and telling us about this.

995

00:34:44,832 --> 00:34:47,168

And definitely the work you put in here,

996

00:34:47,460 --> 00:34:49,212

I do feel like we're

997

00:34:49,212 --> 00:34:51,172

ending this on a solid note of,

998

00:34:51,172 --> 00:34:52,673

here's some principles that

999

00:34:52,673 --> 00:34:53,716

we should be keeping in mind

Speaker: 1000

00:34:53,883 --> 00:34:55,760

as we study Scripture and remember

Speaker: 1001

00:34:56,135 --> 00:34:57,386

that we're not necessarily coming

Speaker: 1002

00:34:57,386 --> 00:34:58,679

with the perfect clean slate.

Speaker: 1003

00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,808

We have biases and confirmation bias.

Speaker: 1004

00:35:01,808 --> 00:35:03,768

I suppose that was one of the phrases you used.

Speaker: 1005

00:35:03,768 --> 00:35:05,019

I think that's a really important piece

Speaker: 1006

00:35:05,394 --> 00:35:06,187

for people to remember.

Speaker: 1007

00:35:06,479 --> 00:35:07,939

So anyways, I appreciate it.

Speaker: 1008

00:35:07,939 --> 00:35:08,898

Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Speaker: 1009

00:35:09,148 --> 00:35:09,398

Thank you.

Speaker: 1010

00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:11,776

Thanks for listening to

Speaker: 1011

00:35:11,776 --> 00:35:13,277

this episode with Glenn Martin.

Speaker: 1012

00:35:13,486 --> 00:35:14,445

If you found this interesting,

Speaker: 1013

00:35:14,695 --> 00:35:16,239

you'll wanna check out the interview we did

Speaker: 1014

00:35:16,322 --> 00:35:18,324

with Stephen Russell on the Old Testament

Speaker: 1015

00:35:18,449 --> 00:35:19,659

saints and non-resistance.

Speaker: 1016

00:35:19,909 --> 00:35:20,868

And you can find that linked

Speaker: 1017

00:35:20,868 --> 00:35:22,411

in the description down below.

Speaker: 1018

00:35:22,745 --> 00:35:24,330

We also have a monthly email newsletter

Speaker: 1019

00:35:24,330 --> 00:35:25,832

and you can sign up on our website

Speaker: 1020

00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,042

and find all our content as well at

Speaker: 1021

00:35:28,042 --> 00:35:29,961

anabaptistperspectives.org.

Speaker: 1022

00:35:30,545 --> 00:35:31,420

Thanks again for listening

Speaker: 1023

00:35:31,629 --> 00:35:33,172

and we'll see you in the next episode.