After winning all of these accolades and we got to a

certain point as a practice, we still had this nagging feeling that, um,

I hadn't achieved anything that I'd really set out to really achieve.

The business plan, which was entirely wrong in terms of numbers,

but the overall idea was correct.

I said to Mary, look, there's just this amazing opportunity.

How would you feel about selling the house?

And I think we were both torn by it really.

But Mary's always been a massive supporter of, of me through my whole career.

And she, she realized that I really wanted to go for it.

We came up with the idea of selling the house in order to fund the project,

which is then what we went on to do.

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Last time we heard the first part of Carl Turner's career story from setting

up a practice straight out of uni, getting hands on with construction to

winning major awards and accolades.

Let's pick up where we left off and hear about Pop Brixton.

A pivotal project for Carl that opened up new opportunities for his practice.

You could have comfortably stuck with the resi projects, which is what you'd, you'd

built that name for in the beginning.

But you didn't do that.

You, you mentioned there that was, there was an itch that hadn't

been scratched, um, and a desire to do work on public projects.

So you actually sold your award winning home.

You sold that, and you put some of that money into a community

development project called Pop Brixton.

How and why did that come about, which seems quite a bold move to me.

Can you tell me about that?

Yeah.

And again, it was, it was a kind of accidental thing really.

And we'd built our lovely house.

We loved living there.

We'd, we told everybody when we built it, it was forever, for our forever home

because that's what we actually thought.

And I think after we'd been there for a couple of years, both Mary

and I realized that we are serial renovators, serial project doers.

And it's not that we got bored with it, but we were kind of

wondering what was next and.

We'd also hoped that in the process of building it, we wouldn't have a mortgage.

And we still had quite a big mortgage.

We had to borrow some money to finish the house, unfortunately.

'cause it was, it cost more than we thought.

Um, surprise, surprise.

And, um, so I think we, so what happened with Pop Brixton is the council

advertised in the local newspaper.

My wife's from Brixton.

We'd lived in and around Brixton for many, many years.

And they were, look, they had this bit of empty land and they

called it a meanwhile project I'd never heard of, meanwhile before.

So they wanted to do something with this bit of land for two years, and they had

an idea of like testing out, experimenting to find out whether there was any

appetite for local workspace in Brixton.

And if there was, what did affordable look like?

What, what kind of things, what, what did you need to make something affordable?

So they, they put a call out to local people.

To come forward with ideas for this site.

And it wasn't a design competition, it was to find somebody to effectively,

to build something on this site.

And um, and then to run it for a year or two, there was no funding

available so you had to fund it.

So anyway, after having a meeting with a council, a direction of travel

meeting, I went to see them and said, look, I've done this little

project with one shipping container.

So I said, I did this project at Hackney City Farm.

I've got this idea about using shipping containers in creating a kind of mixed

use campus with like food and drink and events and, but predominantly

workspace built from shipping containers.

Is that the kind of thing that you are looking for?

Because tell me now if it isn't.

'cause I don't wanna waste my time like designing the project.

So they said, yeah, it sounds great.

And um, to cut a long story short, we went on to win the project and.

Part of the bid was to put a business plan together.

And I was in that great project, uh, that great position of not knowing

what I didn't know at the time.

So, uh, in fact, the business plan, which was entirely wrong in terms of

numbers, but the overall idea was correct.

And so at that point I said to Mary, look, there's just this amazing opportunity.

How would you feel about selling the house?

And I think we were both in torn by it really.

But Mary's always been a massive supporter of, of me through my whole career.

And she, she realized that I really wanted to go for it.

We came up with the idea of selling the house in order to fund the project,

which is then what we went on to do.

So, um, yeah, we didn't, we didn't use all of the money.

We used a sort of sensible amount with the kind of.

Percentage that we thought if we lost everything, then we wouldn't be ruined.

You know, we could still carry on.

So yeah, we, we won the, won the competition, got planning, and then I

spent, uh, about a hundred k buying a bunch of rusty old shipping containers

that were 10 years old, stacked them all on the site and kind of just made a start.

So, and then I, I used the fact that it had some momentum and that

we'd started building it, and the ambition was to open it in phases.

And then I, I used that really as a sort of way to go and talk to

other people, like developers and investors, to try and find somebody

to invest the rest of the money in it.

And actually we had the money to build it if we had to, but we didn't really

want to use all of our own cash.

So, so that's how I became a kind of accidental.

Community developer and really that project was, I guess people

would call it pivoting these days.

So it was, it was a, a pivot away from residential into the potential of working

on exactly the type of project I always wanted to work on, which was a project

was entirely sort of community facing and really the whole thing designed around

providing affordable opportunities, startup space for local people.

It, it sounds incredible and I've since had a

look at, photos of Pop Brixton.

I've not had the pleasure of visiting yet, but I'd, I would love to come

down to Brixton and visit it someday.

Because yeah, it just sounds an amazing space and, um, yeah.

What, what a brilliant project to, to kickstart that, that

pivot, if we use that word.

I'm not really a big fan of that word, but that's kind of what it was, wasn't it?

That kind of change of direction with the practice.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's it's been going for seven years.

It was supposed to be a two year project.

It's had millions of people through the door and it's had the kind of impact for

us as a practice, but I think also for the local community, but also, you know,

I bump into people from all over the world who've said they've been to pop, you

know, hasn't come up in the conversation.

And they've just mentioned something about Pop Brixton and I haven't even

said, oh yeah, I, I said Pop Brixton.

I just kind of nodded and thought this is amazing that, the, there's literally

people traveling to, to London to come and see Pop Brixton as an inspiration.

And we've spoken to people.

In fact, we've kind of advised people as far away as Japan

who've set similar things up.

And we haven't worked specifically on their projects, but they've come

in and met us a few times, talked 'em through the whole process and.

And then they've gone and kind of done it themselves, which I

think is a great outcome as well.

You know, and that's led to, so we then did another two projects,

Peckham Levels, which is bringing the same ingredients as Pop Brixton and

renovating a semi derelicts car parking Peckham that's had Frank's Bar Bull

Tennis is on the roof for like 10 years before we, we, but we took the empty

levels, so we called it Peckham Levels.

And that's been going for a few years now.

So again, predominantly workspace, but has f and b and events.

And then where I'm sat today, Hackney Bridge is the third iteration of the

same ingredients across London in Hackney, which is a, a 15 year sort of

temporary project, but it's a new build.

So it's a series of steel frame buildings built for disassembly and

again, a mix of f and b and, and drink.

And then I've gone on to do, um, a separate project in Ashford.

Coach Works.

Which I've just handed the keys over to another tenant after

running it for five years myself.

So, so yeah, really after doing kind of 10 years of residential projects now, we

just the whole practice has really been founded on these kind of public facing

mixed use campuses called Meanwhile because they're, they're kind of, you

know, seen as being a temporary use of a site, but now it's starting to really

influence the work that we're doing for, so we're now bringing similar ideas to

university campuses, thinking about how we can reinvigorate university campuses.

And, um, a lot of other really amazing projects.

And it's, it's all really, you can trace the line all the way back to

Pop Briton and how that, that project really blew the whole game open for us.

Mm. A catalyst.

That's so cool.

And those sound like some, some other amazing projects

that you've been working on.

Aside from the projects, uh, the type of projects that you've been

working on changing since Pop Brixton, what, what else has changed for you

and for Turner Works your practice since that particular project?

I think the practice has been transformed really.

So we've been moving towards a practice which is not just based around me

anymore, which, you know, now have a co-partner, Susie Michael, associate

director, and a great team here.

So we're trying to evolve the brand.

'cause basically when I first set up those kind of first 10 years or so,

it was Carl Turner Architects, because I thought I'd say it for what it was.

I was a single architect when I started.

But as the practice has, has transformed, we've now turned a works.

The idea that we're doing works so that, you know, we were sometimes operating

projects, sometimes building them, sometimes we're designers, sometimes

we're more at the kind of feasibility stage, helping to inspire projects.

So we drop the word architect and, um, we felt that was too specific and

would, uh, not be, not be broad enough.

So I think the type of projects that we've done has changed.

I think, as I was alluding to earlier, one of the things that's

really changed is that we are now involved much earlier on in projects.

So we do a lot of visioning and feasibility work, probably around

the fringes of what traditionally will be called master planning.

So we call it what we do.

Our version is called micro planning.

So I, I call it a plan of many small things.

How can we bring agile tactics again.

Meanwhile, there's a tactic really as opposed to a thing.

So how can we get places that are maybe a bit broken and a bit, a bit,

uh, you know, lots of empty buildings?

How can we get things moving really quickly?

So what we quite often think about is matching up some local need

with some local space, and then we put the things together and try

and build a, a plan around that.

So the kind of work that we do is moved from delivery into sort

of tactical and strategic, which again, has got its own challenges.

So, you know, I do miss being hands-on on building things.

And the projects that we are building are massive, you know, big 10,000

square meter, um, workspaces.

Uh, we've just got planning for about 120 homes in the center of

Catford and the big new civic square.

That's our first big public housing scheme.

And so the, the whole nature of practice has changed with.

We, we are much more collaborative now, working with other, we work,

we work quite often as the smaller practice with bigger teams, but also

sometimes we're the team bringing the even smaller practices than us.

So I think whereas in the past we were working on our own, uh, now we're quite

often part of a, of a big team and I think we're able to deliver massive impact

with a relative, you know, we're about 15 at the moment with 15 people we're in,

we're able to, yeah, make huge impacts.

Not necessarily by building buildings, but by bringing ideas to the table.

And we're, we're also working all over the uk.

10 years ago I only really worked in London, which is where, where I was based.

And now we're, working into the north of it.

In fact, we have a satellite office in Liverpool now.

One of our team, relocated there.

So, um.

We're winning more work in the north.

So I think for me, it's less about me personally, being the author of

everything that comes from our studio.

We've got a really great team.

And so the whole way that we work is completely different from the way

that we work 10 years ago and on.

In all honesty, I've got no idea where we're gonna be in the next 10 years.

Oh, well, I mean that, that, that sort of segues onto the next

question that I, I had for you, Carl, which was about thinking about the future.

So yeah, I mean, for the future of tournaments, do you have any

thoughts on where you would like to see the practice in the future in

the next 10 years or, or what you'd hope to achieve in the coming years?

Yeah, I think as a, as a group, we've got, we talk about

this quite a lot, like what's next?

Because we've achieved a lot and it's sometimes hard to

lift yourself up to go again.

You know?

'cause you have to have something to aim for really.

And I think in one respect we would just like to do more of the same.

So for the last three years almost we've had a plan at a kind of business

level to try and run a stable business.

So, because previously it's been all over the place, you

know, doing construction and.

Operation, it's been really hard to isolate out particular

bits of the business.

And quite often I think one bit of the business has kind of supported another

bit that's maybe not been doing too well.

So we, we are almost at the end of our first three years of really focusing

on architecture as a separate thing and setting ourselves a target of a certain

amount of revenue that we need to hit to keep our team busy, to keep us.

So basically stability has been a big thing for us.

We just wanted some stability in order to do that.

We've tasked ourselves with winning fewer, bigger projects

because it's just easier to manage.

Um, we've been, with the kind of feasibility work, we just have to,

you know, we, it's very intense.

It has to be done quite quickly.

Usually we have to throw a lot of energy at it, and then quite often it gets.

Filed away in the filing cabinet and nothing really happens.

It's quite, it's quite demoralizing sometimes.

So I think we'd like to see more projects coming through and being realized the

last three or four years has obviously been very difficult since the pandemic.

But I think this, the kind of work we do can unlock difficult viability

problems, you know, thinking about let's just do the least thing that

we need to do to get something moving rather than the most ambitious.

We definitely like to work overseas, so we've got our first

inklings of some overseas work.

We've just been doing a little bit of work with in Singapore with an arts

organization, helping them figure out how they can transform a big building.

And we think we've just won some work in Porto.

We're just waiting to sort of agree the final terms, but, um, transforming

a, a sort of semi-industrial building into an f and b and workspace,

which is right up our street.

So, yeah, I think.

What we really want to work on.

We can't put it down to one thing, but we, we want to take on ambitious

projects that make a big difference.

So we don't really care what they are.

Uh, just that we want to be able to, for us, we wanna be able to run

a stable business without kind of threatening that we're gonna, you

know, hit the buffers at any one time.

Bit less stress, but we also wanna be really challenged

with the work that we do.

We want the work to really make a big, a big impact on people's lives.

So, and in particular, if we were being picky, we'd like to do

more arts and cultural projects.

Um, that's a particular passion.

I think our Mount View drama school that, um, that we delivered, uh, maybe

five or six years ago, it's one of those amazing projects working for a fantastic

cultural organization, a new build building that's a, in a regeneration

project, really in its own right.

Just a dream, dream project.

So we'd like at least two of those every year from now on.

That would be great.

Oh, I love that.

I, I love this kind of ethos that you have, this sort of doing more with

less and actually finding ways to actually get things done, even if it's

not necessarily the most, um, how can we say, I don't wanna say not most

ambitious, because they are ambitious in terms of getting it done, but it's not

necessarily like design for design's sake.

It's about finding a way to, to make things happen.

Particularly this could be community or public projects where there isn't

necessarily a huge amount of money, but you're finding ways to be creative,

to be able to actually make these things happen, not withstanding those

constraints which I think is really cool.

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Now let's get back to the show.

I think, weirdly, John, the, one of the things I've learned

over the years, I guess, is that.

Sometimes capital a architecture, the ones that get, you know, win all the

awards and the other architects drew over, they were, they're actually

the most challenging for people.

You know, maybe they're a bit, uh, a bit forbidding and actually

they're kind of more subtle buildings that feel less designed.

Buildings that can be appropriated by people, messed up by people.

They're, they're the ones that feel welcoming.

And, you know, that's, that's one of the success stories of Pop Brixton is the fact

that we designed it to feel undesigned.

You know, it slots into the kind of market there.

And, you know, lots of people that have got, for instance, Caribbean

roots in Brixton have said to me at the time, like, oh, wow, it's amazing

that you designed this to really fit in with a kind of jamma, you know,

this is like back home in Jamaica.

And I said, I've, I haven't, I've never been to Jamaica.

And they said, oh, there's loads of stuff built from shipping containers.

So it feels.

Really like home.

And I think that kind of low tech, low design stuff that, you know, if you go

to Pop Brixton now, it's looks completely different from when we finished it.

It's, you know, it's covered in paint and just people have made it their own.

And it's, yeah, maybe from a purely aesthetic point of view, I could look

at it and go, it's a bit of a mess.

But actually it's really just, you know, people have run with it.

It's their own, it's not a piece of architecture.

It's just a place that people love to go and hang out.

And it's, you know, we, we did lot, you know, we had lots of ideas about

creating somewhere with no Dead.

So it's a kind of space that you can weave your way around.

There's always something going on there.

You can explore it.

There's lots of design thinking there, but it's not we didn't submit it for any

design awards 'cause we knew there was no way it was ever gonna win an RBA award.

But, you know, it won, it won kind of, it won awards for placemaking

and meanwhile and that kind of thing.

Um, yeah, I, I think that relaxed way of delivering buildings

is generally what people want.

They don't want overly fussy, a building that if you mo, if you move

an object in it, it looks like a mess.

You know, they want somewhere they can live in and use.

Yeah, that's the thing that I guess sometimes you see the, like the

portfolio photos of, of finished spaces when they're kind of clean and, and not in

use, they haven't got people's belongings or, or they're not, you're not being

used by the end users and they can look.

Totally different.

And in sometimes there can be some impracticalities with it that actually

fill it with people and fill it with stuff and maybe it doesn't kind

of work quite as well as, as that.

'Cause that's the thing that these buildings are being

designed to be used, aren't they?

You know, it's like we don't want to design something to just to delete it.

Like a sort of mor solium that's got nobody in it, you know, sort of, um,

spaces that people are actually using.

You know, rather than it being just a sort of sterile environment that as you

say, oh no, don't, don't move that there 'cause it doesn't look right anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think, probably when we started off, me and Cass, we

had quite a minimal aesthetic.

You know, we were looking to kind of minimal arts and kind of pure forms

and spaces, and I still personally enjoy that way of doing things.

But I think as I've matured as a designer, I've realized that you need to allow

people more room to feel comfortable and to be able to adapt and change things.

So you'll see that our work's got a lot more colorful and vibrant.

And in a way the, a lot of our projects tend to look quite scruffy because they

get used by people and we photograph them when they're actually in use.

But I think.

You know, we try, we try to be honest about the spaces that we create and for

me, they look much better full of people.

And the accolades are the fact that millions of people use the

spaces and get to enjoy them.

And they don't think that they're going to an architectural project.

They think they're going to, they go to work at Peckham levels and then go

for a drink afterwards and then go to Frank's bar on the roof and have an

epic view over London as the sunsets.

And it's, it's part of an experience.

And the buildings become places that people want to be.

And I think especially, you know, post COVID, we think about how

buildings are, are being used now.

You know, you have to create that, those places that people can have

experiences in I is, is kind of what drives people to come into

cities still and want to go to work.

'cause otherwise they'll just stay at home.

Yeah, absolutely.

So Carl, what, what unconventional piece of advice would you give to younger

architects and designers out there?

Yeah, I think I would probably say that yeah,

particularly young designers.

I, I think maybe everybody in the architecture industry

is a bit afraid of failure.

And I think that, well, my career has been littered with failure, but my

success is really built on failure.

I honestly don't see how you can be successful without failing.

And I think if you try not to fail, it just means that you are not taking any

risks and that you will not innovate and things will just stay as they are.

So my advice would be if it feels a bit risky, then you should have a go at it.

And if you fail, it's, failure is a funny thing, isn't it?

You might not achieve what you wanted to, but, the success will

be that you'll learn from it.

And then if you actually then learn from that failure, then

that'll be a success next time.

So I would say, something I wish somebody had told me early on is,

look for things that you can fail at.

Embrace it because it's gonna be the fuel that will drive you forward.

I love that.

Yeah.

So you either, you either win or you learn.

I think that's the thing as well that often we, we tend to operate generally

within our comfort zone a lot of the time.

And it's when you push yourself outside of that and you take those,

maybe seem slightly riskier, some of those opportunities, but it's when

you take those risks and push yourself out of your comfort zone into that

zone where there is that risk of failure, there's some jeopardy there.

But that's when great things can happen, isn't it?

And as you say, you know, if we reframe how we think about

failure, the fact that every.

Every opportunity to fail is, it's an opportunity to learn.

And the bonus, it's a bonus if it works and you win.

And that's great too.

Yeah, that's a really good takeaway.

And I, I think the problem that architects have faced

really is a mindset which, when you do your part three, it's.

You know, it's basically you are told not to really step out of your comfort zone.

If something, if you haven't got experience in something, then

you shouldn't be taking it on.

Which I've always found, I understand why it's I guess it's kind of couched

in that way, but it's, it's such a limiting mindset and I think it's

something that Cass and I very early on, we were aware of it 'cause we were

doing our part threes and we, so we, we always, we would take a kind of a,

I think we used to call it kind of baby steps, so we would take small risks.

So we wouldn't go for, you know, I don't think I would've gone

in my first couple of years.

I wouldn't have wanted to, if somebody had said design Matt v drama school, I

just wouldn't have been ready for it.

So, but I think what at the scale that you're working in,

that you should be taking risks, you should be pushing yourself.

Because the, yeah, the only way that you can really learn, I, I do believe, is

by having, taking risks, which is gonna mean you're gonna be exposed to failure.

And I, I think architects are just really worried about failing.

You know, they're, they're, um, driven people who've had to pass

a lot of exams and, uh, you know, gone through the critique process.

And people want positive affirmation.

They don't, they don't wanna fail.

Yeah, we're gonna start to wrap things up, Carl.

What would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to take

away from our conversation today?

Yeah.

I think it follows on really from taking risks that I think if I had an

ethos, it would be DIY, do it yourself.

And I think.

Really, the architecture world is a little bit stuck, and I think because

architects want to succeed within the parameters of what they perceive as being

successful for an architecture practice, are you being somebody handing you a

commission for a really cool building.

So if you can't succeed in that way, then somehow it's not success.

But I would urge all architects at whatever stage of your career

or whatever scale you are at, you know, you should be spending your

energy generating your own projects.

You know, that's what I believe in self-initiated projects.

Of course, now we've got to a point where we are being given

great projects to work on, that we're not having to self-initiate.

But in a way, the projects that we've done previously that have been self-initiated

and basically everything that I've done or that we've done as a practice.

That has had any real value as generally being a self-initiated project, something

that we were not commissioned to do, we kind of made the project happen.

So I, I think those projects are the ones that make a difference.

So whether doesn't always have to be about making money, it could be that

you identify a little community group that needs help with some things,

so maybe spend some time doing that.

But basically we just need to break the cycle of developers and clients

handing out work to us and then we're constrained by producing a

kind of set of drawings for somebody.

I think architects skills can be really unlocked and we can help

to solve a lot of problems if we actually became our own clients.

And, um, whether that's being a developer or a community champion

or, or on whatever scale it is.

I think we could spend less time doing competitions and bidding

for work that quite frankly, we probably don't even wanna win.

And, and just spend more energy actually fixing real problems,

I love that, that is such a great takeaway.

Thanks for sharing that, Carl.

Was there anything else you wanted to add that we haven't already covered?

We've covered quite a lot, but was there any other final thoughts you

wanted to add before we finish up?

I think.

I think that's probably more or less it, I think.

Yeah.

We've rumbled around all over the place there.

It's gone some places like this.

There's another question that I would like to ask you and.

As you know, I, I love to travel, as do you, and I just wondered if you

could tell me one of your favorite places and what you love about it,

and I appreciate this might be a really tough question because there's

probably lots of places that you love.

Um, it could be somewhere near or far.

Yeah, it is a tough one because I visited some amazing places

and I, Mexico is a right up there, but in the end I've plumped for New

Zealand, which is somewhere I, I went, I visited North Island maybe 25 years

ago, but last summer we went there for five weeks, Mary and I, and we spent

a couple of weeks on North Island and then three weeks on the south island.

And what I like about it is it's, it's a, it's like a continent

compressed into like two small islands, more or less the size of the uk.

I just love the people as well.

Just their cando attitude friendly and it's got everything.

It's got mountains, volcanoes.

We did scenic train rides.

We flew, we landed in a helicopter on the top of a mountain and got

off and walked around the glacier.

We went well watching, we went on kind of riverboat ride, you know, kind of, yeah,

Jetboat rides and we just, I think what I like about the country is it's, it's

just an amazing natural paradise, but the Kiwis just, they've got an attitude of

getting out into nature and enjoying it.

And the whole country is really set up to allow you to access quite affordably

the natural wonders of the place.

And there isn't a kind of preservationist kind of mindset where you can't

go here and you can't go there.

So, um, I love the cities as well.

It was amazing to see how the Christchurch had been rebuilt after the earthquake.

Wellington's one of my favorite places.

Now a beautiful little city tucked into a bay with a beach and just

a really lu beautiful size and it.

Just everything about the place is, is great.

And it's obviously a great, easy, lazy travelers place if you speak English,

'cause you can kind of get by and um, I've actually been learning Spanish

for a year and a half as a result of stumbling around Mexico not being able

to really speak a word of Spanish.

So, but it could have been Mexico that came out on top, but I think,

'cause I didn't speak the language, it kind of slightly limited.

Um, but yeah, both, both amazing places.

But New Zealand is just an incredible place.

Yeah, Milford sound, we, we visited as well, which was shrouded in mist

and then we were a bit disappointed.

And then just at the last minute when we were halfway through the

sound, the mist lifted and we saw this natural wonder, this epic fjord.

So yeah, it was, it was quite a memorable month actually.

Oh, sounds amazing.

I was fortunate enough to visit New Zealand.

I think it'd be about 20 years ago now.

I spent about three weeks traveling there and I had such an amazing time,

as you say, kind of like a continent in miniature I, and I had lots of, uh,

different experiences you mentioned.

We probably visited a few of the same places thinking about Carl 'cause I did

like volcano trekking, and, um, I did.

Skydiving and fishing trips and dolphin swimming with

dolphins and all sorts of stuff.

And, uh, a lot of, um, lifelong memories made on that trip.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Haven't been to Mexico yet.

That's still on my bucket list of places to visit.

So, um.

we did, we did a um, a dawn balloon flight over the

pyramids, I think wan, which is on the outskirts of Mexico City.

But in a flotilla of 30 balloons.

We didn't realize it was a flotilla, we just thought we

were going up in a balloon.

But the fact that we were surrounded by, in a massive, um, flotilla balloons, just

as the sun came up was just unbelievable.

A little bit scary as well, but in a good way.

That sounds like a lot of fun.

Carl, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation today.

It's been fantastic.

Thanks so much for being a guest on the show and sharing a bit of your story.

Could you just remind everyone where's the best place for people

to connect with you online line?

Yeah, you can connect with me on, on LinkedIn if you, if you Google

me, Carl Turner, I'll come up on LinkedIn.

So I'm easy to find.

Awesome.

I'll make sure that we pop that link into the show notes and, um, if anyone wants

to learn more about Turner Works, uh, the web site, URL, it's Turner Do Works.

Yes, that's it.

Slightly odd one, but also easy to find.

Yeah.

Easy to find and memorable, I would say.

Cool.

You're very welcome.

Thanks again, Carl.

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