00:00:00 Shreya: What if leadership is not something you think your way into, but something your body either trust or doesn't? Because we have all made leaders who say the right things. But the room still feels tense. And we have made others who barely raise their voice. Yet everything settles. And today we are exploring that invisible layer while learning and leadership. Stop being ideas and become lived experience.

00:00:35 Shreya: Welcome back to the Wellness Reimagined, where we question the normal ways we have been taught to live and lead, and we reveal something more human. Today I'm joined by Amanda and Team and a master Tai Chi instructor and Embodied leadership trainer who has been practicing Cyst based embodiment work since, um, she was fourteen. And we are talking about embodied leadership and embodied learning, what it actually looks like when leaders stop performing steadiness and start building it from inside out. If you have ever felt like your mind understands the lesson but your nervous system didn't get the memo, then this conversation is for you. Welcome, Amanda and team, I'm honored to have you guys on my show.

00:01:25 Timm and Amanda: Thanks, Shreya. Nice to be here.

00:01:27 Timm and Amanda: Yeah, thank you for that introduction. I loved how you said sometimes you can learn something in your mind, but your nervous system doesn't always get the memo. That's. That's what we're all about.

00:01:40 Shreya: Thank you so much. And, uh, when you hear the phrase embodied leadership, what is the first moment or image that comes to you like something real, not theoretical.

00:01:54 Timm and Amanda: Oh, wonderful. What image comes to mind? Um, so my embodied leadership journey started as a martial art journey. So when I picture this embodied kind of serenity and strength, I picture my martial arts instructor, Peter Hill, and I picture, um, some of the other people I've trained with over the years and their posture and their the way they are rooted into the Earth, they're centered right there in their middle. Their spine is long and relaxed. And they are they're calm, but they're ready. And so I kind of I picture a person like that.

00:02:36 Timm and Amanda: And if I can, uh, answer for myself, I learned about embodied leadership ten years ago, uh, kind of later in my career. And, um, if you would have asked me this question, then I would have said, I can't, I can't picture anything. I really don't know what you're talking about, because I was completely blind to the power of embodiment. And honestly, I was kind of cut off from my body. You know, that was a coping mechanism that I had been using throughout my career, um, to not ever come across as, uh, nervous or not knowing exactly what I need to do next. And so, um, now I've got a really good idea of, uh, the power of embodiment. And I guess if I have, if I'm if I'm trying to come up with an image, it's probably, um, it's probably someone meditating. Um, but, um, as, as we may come back to, um, we think it's really important that people use their embodiment practices while they're in action. It's really not a navel gazing navel. Navel gazing practice. It's something you use in action at work or at home in your life?

00:03:53 Shreya: Yes. That's really beautiful.

00:03:55 Shreya: And I love that you started with the lived moment, because I think embodiment always seems to begin where our explanation. And I think explaining mind games.

00:04:09 Timm and Amanda: Yeah. And it can be difficult. Um, you know, to give people a really short answer when they say, what do you mean by embodied leadership? Right. Because it's so it's so involved. Um, but, you know, we've boiled it down to a to what we think is a pretty short, manageable curriculum that not only teaches people about it, but really gets them into it's really about practice, right? It's really having practices that you can use when you need them, being able to to access those capacities in your body. That's the way we think about it.

00:04:43 Timm and Amanda: Great. Um, one thing I think is so important, a distinction I'd like to make in Western culture, and maybe throughout the world, we often separate the mind and the body, and we deal with them as if they are two completely different things with completely different jobs. We only take one of them to work, right? Just the brain. Well, depending on your work. Right. But, uh, yeah, the body and everything that goes on within it. And our nervous system doesn't, uh, we don't leave a lot of space for that. But we hold that your body and your brain aren't separate. Really. And that, you know, what's going on in your body is influencing your brain, and it's going to influence your behavior and your interactions with other people. And they can read what's going on in your body without maybe they don't even notice, but they know when you're tense, they know when you're stressed and it shows up in that conversation. Um, so yeah, the body and the brain aren't separate.

00:05:52 Shreya: Yeah,

00:05:53 Shreya: And a lot of people really fear embodied and assume it's either spiritual or a nice to have. Uh, what do you guys think is the most common misunderstanding people bring to embodied learning, especially in leadership spaces?

00:06:12 Timm and Amanda: Oh good question. Um, I think when you view embodiment as kind of an abstract concept or maybe kind of esoteric or maybe kind of fluff or like woo woo, like you said, um, you're kind of missing the practical applications that are there for when you bring a regulated body to, to work and to your relationships and to your life goals. Um, it is it is specific and it's tangible, and it will make a measurable impact in your life.

00:06:52 Timm and Amanda: Yeah. I think, um, you know, what has broken into the workplace is mindfulness as a, as a concept. And, um, I think it's good that people are starting to become aware of these, you know, these distinctions of being present and being centered. Um, but I think the misconception is they think that that's something you do, um, you know, on a meditation mat after work or before you go to bed and, um, you know, we we have become very aware that it's really it's a practice you need to be able to put into place whenever you need it. In action, at work, at home. Um, that's what makes embodiment, um, a practical benefit for you.

00:07:42 Shreya: Yes.

00:07:43 Shreya: And also like, how do you help a skeptical, high performing leader feel the practicality of of it without forcing the belief?

00:07:54 Timm and Amanda: You know, one of the one of the things we do, um, just to, uh, to add some value to organizations and to do what you just said is, you know, give people a little bit of an experience of this is we offer very low cost or sometimes free wellbeing sessions in organizations. And the first thing that we do is we have them, you know, assess how they're feeling in their body. And then we do some tai chi. Amanda usually leads some wonderful tai chi movement for about twenty or twenty five minutes, and then we have them do that assessment again. And just that simple little exercise always, you know, and then we allow people to share, you know, what's coming up for them. And that simple little exercise, I think wins over a lot of people. Like, well, that's kind of powerful. You know, I've been feeling this way for years, and now in twenty minutes, I've got this much more delightful feeling.

00:08:56 Shreya: Yeah, that's really beautiful. I think that Lance also like, it's it's not about being calm looking or adopting a vibe. It's about building an internal capacity that holds up under pressure. And I think, uh, pressure is where leadership gets real.

00:09:14 Timm and Amanda: Oh, that's absolutely accurate. In our courses, we try to simulate some of the pressure you might feel in the workplace. And even though your brain kind of knows it's just a practice, it's just a drill. Class is always a safe space. Um, your nervous system doesn't always know the difference. And you can still get a bit of a nervous system response in class with these trainings. And then that's awesome because we can build awareness around that reaction. And we can practice tools for moving back into a place of choice. So yeah, we don't judge those natural human reactions we all have. We come to be aware of them, understand them, and move through them. Yeah.

00:10:06 Shreya: And like let's go a layer deeper. Like why do you think so many leaders are trained to live from the neck up like brilliant minds, disconnected bodies. What is the hidden cost of that split?

00:10:22 Timm and Amanda: Ah, so is the question why do they do it? Or what's the cost of doing it? Or both? Both. Okay. Um, I can certainly speak to why it happens? Because I was a classic, uh, head on a stick before I got introduced to embodied leadership about ten years ago. And, um, you know, I wasn't I wasn't exploring it. But when I started to explore it, I realized that I had really, you know, cut myself off from my body. And as I explored that more, I came to realize that I had this really deep fear that if people saw vulnerability in me, if they saw emotions come up then and I didn't completely control them, that, number one, I might not be able to control them. If I let a little bit of emotion out, I might let too much emotion out. Um, and it just it became an existential fear that if I'm not absolutely controlling what's going on when I'm in front of a group of, you know, corporate people or teams, um, that, that the world is really going to end. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of fear and anxiety associated with it, and, um. I'll wait. You know, maybe later I can explain how a couple of key things that really flipped that for me, but that's I think that's what's going on for a lot of people. It's either a, um, they're completely blind to it, like I also was. But if they start to examine it, there's some there's some anxiety usually, um, behind it.

00:11:56 Timm and Amanda: Yeah. But going to the hidden cost, um, that anxiety is there whether you're unpacking it and processing it with your body or not. And it impacts your health. It keeps you, um, from trying to grow and expand and do more difficult things in your career. It keeps you a little bit disconnected from the people around you. Um, so once you can get in to your body and you can start to, um, to process some of the the old beliefs and stories in the programming that sits in your nervous system. Um, and give it some space to, to heal and move through you. Then you just become more effective, more connected, and you start achieving some really great goals because you're empowered to stretch yourself.

00:12:53 Timm and Amanda: In my case, the, the, you know, fear was so strong that I felt like I had to absolutely control every aspect of my interaction with my clients. I didn't know I was doing it until after the fact. Um, but I would I would prepare and prepare and sometimes memorize my material because I was so afraid I might, you know, make a mistake or not be the smartest person in the room. And, um, boy, what a sense of relief it was when I, you know, eventually, through embodied training, came around to realizing that I could trust myself to show up and be there as a whole person and really pay attention. Listen to what's going on. There's nothing that's going to happen in that room that, um, you know, especially at this stage in my career I can't handle. But I didn't realize that.

00:13:49 Shreya: Yes, I think so. The comeback, uh, is it's not dramatic. It's, uh, like relational. The body starts trusting us again, one honest moment at a time. I think that feels like a different definition of strength, right?

00:14:08 Timm and Amanda: Yeah. One honest moment at a time. I love that, um, it. We're not doing ourselves any favors, and we're doing a disservice to the people that we care about and that we're impacting in our lives when we don't process and confront the things that our body is telling us. And as we open up those lines of communication between the body and brain, um, it becomes easier and it happens more and more effortlessly. Um, and yeah, some of the things that maybe you were resistant to at first can just become second nature once you've developed that practice.

00:14:48 Shreya: Yeah. And also, like Amanda, you and a team created and embodied development journey using tai chi principles. So for someone who is listening and who can't imagine doing tai chi in their workday, what does embodied learning look like in a practical, modern life?

00:15:09 Timm and Amanda: Well, I would say, um, it is helpful to have a regular, consistent tai chi practice most days of the week. It doesn't have to be long. It doesn't necessarily have to be tai chi. It can be yoga. Um, we also do qigong. It can be a lot of meditation and breathwork, different things, but we love Tai Chi here at the Leader Lab. So if you're doing that for just maybe ten minutes before you even get to work, that is getting your brain and body in a place where that once you get to work, you can start, um, calling up those capacities that you felt while you were doing tai chi that morning. You can do the same breathing counts. You can line up your spine and your hips in the same way. Um, you know, you don't have to make it a huge deal, but just, like, recenter yourself in your desk chair, um, big inhale through the nose and a sigh out through the mouth. Um, just little cues that your body will recognize because you practiced earlier that morning. Um, that will help keep you in a centered place throughout your workday. Even if you don't, you know, get up and run a whole tai chi routine in the middle of, you know, work. You don't have to do that.

00:16:33 Timm and Amanda: And and we can also, target, um, the embodied practices to specific situations in general. We try to let the participants in our courses decide what are the important things that they want to work on. But there are some general exercises that we use that seem to be, um, highly applicable. So, for example, um, a lot of people struggle setting boundaries and saying no. Right. They'll take on assignments or they'll they'll commit to an end date to a project that they don't feel comfortable with because they're so uncomfortable saying no. So what does that have to do with the body? Well, um, one of the things that we'll do in the class is we will modify, um, qigong Tai chi It moves to show how your whole body is really involved. When you say no, when you decline something. And if your body is not comfortable with that feeling of decline, um, you're going you're not going to be very good at it. Um, so, you know, you can practice in a safe environment, learning how to decline, how to say no with your entire body. Now, when you take that back into work, you're not going to strike, you know, a martial art pose when you say no to the person. You don't need to, because you're building the capacity to feel what it feels like for your whole body to decline, rather than for you to be all tense and choking in the throat. And your head squeaks out, you know? No. And usually you don't do that because you just say yes because it's more comfortable.

00:18:15 Shreya: I love that it's small enough to be doable, but deep enough to change the pattern. That's the magic people underestimate, like tiny practices that retrain the system.

00:18:29 Timm and Amanda: Absolutely. We we always, you know, start new practices in a in a very small, manageable way. And then, um, each participant chooses how to, you know, how and when to go to the next step until they eventually are ready to take it into the workplace. But it is important to kind of take it gradually.

00:18:51 Shreya: Yeah. And also like if someone listening and feels like they have been holding it together for a long time, leading, caregiving, producing, what is one question you would invite them to ask their body today? Uh, that doesn't demand change. Uh. Just honesty.

00:19:11 Timm and Amanda: Oh great question. Um, I think people overperform a lot. And I think that that can be an old story that is not always useful. Um, maybe that was the way that we got connection and affection and acceptance early on. Um, maybe the more we did, the more success we got and we felt more secure. Um, and maybe there is some truth to that, but our body is so good at letting us know, um, you know that. That's enough. Not everything that we're doing is in line with what we actually care about. We're just. We're just performing out of default, and we can. So I would ask your body, what do I really care about? And is this behavior actually in line with it? Um, is there something in my day that I can let go, or is my body just telling me today I need a break? You know, sometimes our body will very stubbornly let us know that it's. It's time for a break. So listen to what your body's saying.

00:20:25 Timm and Amanda: We. If I can add to that, we had a person. Um, just an example. Um, we had a person come through our course some years ago. Very competent woman, um, late in her career. And, um, we were doing a simple exercise about, um, oak and willow energy. Right. What's the distinction between oak and willow energy in your body? And this gave it gave this woman a huge insight. She said, my entire career, I have always and only brought if something was important. I have always and only brought oak energy because I was sure that was the only thing that really important things get done. And this simple little exercise just caused her to experience. What if you tried to do something with Willow Energy and she was like, wow, um, I now see that, um, maybe the reason it doesn't always work my energy is because maybe it's not the appropriate fit. And I never, never realized it was an alternative.

00:21:30 Shreya: But, um, I think, uh, here is what I'm taking with me from this conversation that embodied leadership is not about being unshakable. It's about becoming undeterred, like becoming returnable, actually. And this is truly a very wonderful conversation with you guys. And if after this, my listeners want to connect with you and want to know more about you guys and, uh, about East Valley Leader Lab, then what's the best way?

00:22:01 Timm and Amanda: Oh, yeah. We would be thrilled if your listeners would look up our website. EV leader com um, on there you will see links to all of our social media. We are on, uh, you know, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, uh, even a little bit of TikTok. Um, but we also have our YouTube channel. It'll be linked there as well. Uh, East Valley Leader Labs YouTube channel. And we have, uh, our podcast is there. Um, you can also find our podcast wherever you stream your podcasts. But we like YouTube because it has our video.

00:22:39 Timm and Amanda: And anybody that's interested in, um, seeing what this is all about, seeing what our three course curriculum is about, we're going to start a new cohort on Wednesday, April eighth. It's going to be a sometimes we do this completely live. Sometimes we do it, um, on zoom. And this will be a virtual course on zoom. So it's accessible to all your listeners around wherever. Um, we'd love to have them join us or just come to the website and check it out and see if they have any questions for us.

00:23:11 Shreya: I will definitely make sure to attach all these details and links below, so that the listeners can find them easily and get in touch with you. And thank you for this lovely conversation and for my listener. If today's conversation and this episode hits something tender, maybe the part of you that tired of leading from pure willpower, then take a breath right now and let that be enough. You don't have to force your way into a better life. You can train your way there gently, through presence, through practice, through coming back to your body. This is the Wellness reimagined. If you want to see more conversation like this, then follow the show. Share it with someone who's carrying a lot and come back next time. Until then, lead softly, truthfully, and from the inside out. And do not forget to hit the follow button. Subscribe and feel free to share your thoughts because your ears deserve premium content. Thank you.