Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly.

Intro: Before we get to our interview, our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone

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Intro: Our guest this episode is Pennsylvania guide Frank Landis.

Intro: Frank and I take a deep dive into night fishing for predator trout.

Intro: We cover it all, scouting water, fishing and non-fishing gear,

Intro: flies, and presentation.

Intro: I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview,

Intro: just a couple of housekeeping items.

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Intro: Now, on to our interview.

Marvin: Well, Frank, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Frank: Hi, Marvin. How's it going?

Marvin: Just trying to stay out of trouble. And, you know, we have a tradition on the

Marvin: Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Frank: Sure. Yeah, I was really young. I have a bunch of young fishing memories.

Frank: I might have been, I don't know, four or five years old. I can remember my aunt

Frank: and uncle taking me out to a bluegill pond and just throwing a bobber under

Frank: some, you know, with worms under a bobber and catching bluegill very, very easily.

Frank: And that was like obviously exciting and then

Frank: to uh compare that to maybe the opposite experience my

Frank: dad took me out um bass fishing in a

Frank: lake with like regular gear as like a five-year-old and

Frank: i don't know that's even the first time he ever took me fishing but like i can

Frank: remember not catching anything snagging all the time you know we're fishing

Frank: like rubber uh you know bass uh you know just you know bass lures and stuff

Frank: and for like a little kid it was just uh you know maybe a little too hard and

Frank: had no success so i had like two good experiences where i had like

Frank: a really easy time and then like a real tough time and you know that's real

Frank: fishing so set me up good for uh you know my expectations going forward yeah.

Marvin: Good thing you weren't uh losing crankbaits or your dad probably wouldn't have

Marvin: ever taken you fishing again.

Frank: Right yeah no just soft plastics yeah i think it was like you know rubber uh

Frank: rubber soft plastics that kind of thing so not too bad yeah.

Marvin: And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing.

Frank: Yeah someone that always fly fished uh and you know while he would be fly fishing

Frank: i'd often just have bait or spinners or whatever you know, kids fish with.

Frank: And then, um, yeah, I would get a situation where everything would be nice and easy.

Frank: He'd hand me the fly rod and, you know, sometimes I'd hook a fish and oftentimes

Frank: I'd break them off because you're trying to pick them straight up with five

Frank: or six eggs and, you know, a stock trout or whatever, and, uh, you know, snap it off.

Frank: But I definitely got that, uh, first experience at super young.

Frank: And then I think by middle school, I can remember like, uh, tying a couple like

Frank: elk hair caddis and catching some fish on them at my local stock upstream.

Frank: So, um, pretty solid early, um, set of memories, fly fishing,

Frank: but then, you know, I didn't really dive in where I'm fully fly fishing until

Frank: I was a little bit older, college age. So.

Marvin: Uh, got it. And so who are some of the folks that have mentored during your

Marvin: fly fishing journey and what have they taught you?

Frank: Yeah so obviously my dad um you know what my dad

Frank: really instilled with us the basics of fly fishing um yeah he

Frank: was a decent angler himself um kind of got me started and

Frank: then what really what i think really like influencing those

Frank: with my dad's like um and one way showed me

Frank: it was to when when you do a hobby just diving full

Frank: in um first it was archery when i was

Frank: young we used to shoot recurve a lot as i got older it turned

Frank: into white water kayaking we'd drive all over the place to

Frank: find whitewater waiting for you know rainstorms to

Frank: hit different parts of the east coast and driving there you know when

Frank: we had the chance and that that eventually evolved into fishing by the

Frank: time i was in college so um he really taught me to kind of uh you know really

Frank: dive into hobbies and indulge rather than dabble um and so that was kind of

Frank: my start and so by college i'm really fishing a lot um eventually i moved to

Frank: carlisle and got a job out this way teaching and then uh worked at TCO Fly Shop out here and then,

Frank: you know, met a bunch of people, but one that stands out is Tom Baltz.

Frank: I think you said you know Tom, correct?

Marvin: Yeah, I met Tom I think at the, for the first time at the, probably one of the

Marvin: last fly tying symposiums before COVID hit.

Frank: Gotcha. Has he been on your show? I didn't, I had never seen him,

Frank: never seen that. I don't remember.

Marvin: No, he's on the list though.

Frank: Oh, cool, cool. Well, he'd be a good one. He's a legend in our area.

Frank: He's been guiding, man, I want to say close to 40, 50 years in this area.

Frank: So, I mean, like you're not going to find a person with a better wealth of experience

Frank: and you're not going to find someone who knows as much just locally.

Frank: And, you know, what better person to talk to than someone who's been doing the

Frank: exact same thing that I'm trying to do for the last 40, 50 years?

Frank: He's just a wealth of knowledge. He's become quite a good friend.

Frank: I mean, we've talked a lot and spent a lot of time, me and my wife hanging out

Frank: with his wife quite a bit.

Frank: And we've become close so he's just been a huge influence to me uh

Frank: on the fishing side of things locally in this area um

Frank: as well and then um

Frank: one more i think is worth that we're gonna be talking about night fishing um

Frank: and then the person who really got me thinking about the night game and really

Frank: got me excited is a good friend sam gall um up at the eco state college store

Frank: um he's uh the head guide up there um and he's just an amazing angler and again

Frank: a great guide um i've spent quite

Frank: a bit of time with him when i'm guiding up in that neck of the woods i'll crash

Frank: at his house and we've had endless conversations about you

Frank: know all things fishing and one of the things that came up over and over was

Frank: night fishing right and uh he really piqued my interest and got me got me thinking

Frank: telling me crazy stories about say still weird things and big fish and you know

Frank: how it's different and exciting and that's really what sparked my interest and

Frank: um not only just the interest but like his platform his methods that's kind

Frank: of what i started with and that was kind of

Frank: where I build my kind of night fishing program off of his techniques.

Frank: So that's kind of my guy there.

Marvin: Yeah, very, very neat. And so, you know, how did you initially get the guide bug?

Frank: So I worked at the TCO Boiling Springs shop for maybe three years when I moved

Frank: in this area before I started guiding.

Frank: It was just a natural transition, I think.

Frank: I'm a teacher, so I fish a lot. I'm already a teacher.

Frank: Those two things go hand in hand when it comes to guiding. So eventually,

Frank: Jake Villewalk, Relentless Fly Fishing, who does all the TCO trips in my area,

Frank: he pretty much gave me that shot.

Frank: And I started guiding a couple trips a year, and it's kind of been growing from

Frank: there. So that's kind of how that all started.

Marvin: Very very cool are there some folks kind of on the guide side that have kind

Marvin: of helped you hone your craft.

Frank: Yeah i mean um everybody

Frank: in the tco kind of world that i've

Frank: run into has played you know some type of role you

Frank: know guys that you've had on the show um other guys as

Frank: well i mean my good friend alex um caliveras he's

Frank: a full-time guy in our area i mean uh he's

Frank: been a great friend in mind just a good peer um brandon

Frank: he that on the show brennan ruch um as well um neil

Frank: sunday i worked with him at the shop quite a bit and uh

Frank: you know i've gone on a couple of you know group trips with neil and just picking

Frank: up on little things like you know the best places to take your clients to lunch

Frank: or or things like that like yeah good tough stuff like that from neil um you

Frank: know eric nagoski who you've had on the show i believe um you know just picking

Frank: up like bug information from them.

Frank: So all the guys that are around that TCO community, I'm missing them too,

Frank: but there's a lot more, but you know, all those dudes.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you know, there's such a unique fly fishing

Marvin: culture in Pennsylvania, right?

Marvin: And so it's kind of interesting to see all those guys kind of get together and share information.

Frank: Oh, yeah. I think it's been a good, like, you know, it's never been,

Frank: I've never felt like people were shielding spots or information,

Frank: at least, you know, most of the people I've ever met in the, you know, in this area.

Frank: I mean, it's all pretty, it's a good community and people are trying to work

Frank: with each other and it goes pretty well.

Marvin: Yeah, neat. And, you know, so when I have guides on, I have kind of two questions

Marvin: that, you know, I like to ask them. And, you know, the first one is,

Marvin: you know, what do you think is the secret to being a good guide?

Frank: Yeah so um i mean there's the the starting

Frank: out point that like you'll hear it over and over hey you gotta

Frank: know your your your fishing stuff whatever fishing program you're trying

Frank: to run you got to be good at it you got to know it um there's that and

Frank: you also have to be a people person right um if you're

Frank: not good with people you're not going to make for a very good guide uh

Frank: you're going to deal with all sorts especially when you're working on a fly shop or you

Frank: might get anybody you know um you have to be pretty good with different

Frank: types of people um beyond that though um what

Frank: i've noticed there's tons of like situations where certain people

Frank: and certain guys really mesh well and it

Frank: could be for any reason like it could be for a fishing reason a

Frank: non-fishing reason but i've seen like so many combinations of

Frank: that so like you know when you have a good you know uh marriage so to say of

Frank: like intentions um i see that work out really well and so you know guides and

Frank: clients out there should be i think they should be looking for finding those

Frank: connections because that's where like the magic happens and you have really

Frank: good experience on the water when And you meet those people and it's really

Frank: working. Everyone's working together.

Frank: And then it's not like you're like, you don't want a really good guy trip.

Frank: You don't feel like you have to do everything. You feel like you're just like

Frank: a part of the process. And that's when it's as smooth as it can be.

Marvin: Yeah, it's neat because, I mean, I've kind of, you know, been fortunate enough

Marvin: over the years to develop those personal relationships with people that I fish with.

Marvin: And, you know, you kind of do kind of become like family.

Frank: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I have a client that, you know,

Frank: I've guided so many times and Alex Clivers guides him as well.

Frank: We kind of, we both guide him a lot.

Frank: And, man, I text him, if I catch a cool fish, I text it to him and,

Frank: you know, we're chatting and keep each other updated on each other's lives.

Frank: And, you know, it's been a good, good, good way to make, you know,

Frank: new relationships with people, new contacts. And yes, it's a good thing.

Marvin: Yeah, very, very neat. And then the second question I always like to ask guides

Marvin: is I ask them to share what they think the biggest misconception is that folks

Marvin: have about the life of a fishing guide.

Frank: Yeah, so I definitely don't live that full-time program. You know,

Frank: I'm a teacher full-time, so I'm definitely doing it on the side.

Frank: And, you know, I think that's maybe what I'd say is that there's a lot of guides

Frank: out there that are from all walks of life on different schedules.

Frank: And, you know, as long as they're passionate about it, as long as they're invested

Frank: into it and they're there, you know, working for you to give you the best day.

Frank: I mean, you can find great guides that are in all different situations.

Frank: You know, there's some I know some great guides that are doing it every single

Frank: day, like a Sam Galt that I've already mentioned or Neil and Alex that are full time for us down here.

Frank: But then there's guys, you know, that, you know, they might only do like 15

Frank: trips a year, 10 trips a year.

Frank: But those 10, 15 trips are quality with like, you know, clients that they,

Frank: you know, we've said had a good relationship with. And, uh, you know,

Frank: that's meaningful to you and it's just a different way of doing things.

Frank: So there's all sorts of different scenarios you can find yourself in,

Frank: uh, with on the guiding side of things. I think you're just really positive in general.

Marvin: Yeah. I think it's neat to watch people that have kind of been in the game for

Marvin: a while because, you know, generally they end up in a place where they're kind

Marvin: of fishing with those people that have become friends that like to be,

Marvin: you know, fish the way they like to guide people fishing or the way they like to fish.

Marvin: And it's really kind of cool to kind of watch, you know, guides as they kind

Marvin: of, you know, for lack of a better word, kind of grow up in guiding to kind

Marvin: of, you know, build that universe of people around them.

Frank: Yeah, definitely. And it's, you know, it's, it's every, it's everything from,

Frank: you know, your clients, the people that you fish with for fun,

Frank: your other guys that you guide with.

Frank: And there's other guys that I've learned a lot from, I've never even spent a

Frank: moment on the water with, you know, I've never even fished with these guys.

Frank: And we've talked and we've shared information and, you know,

Frank: the whole community you're talking about, that's, that's great. It's good stuff. Yeah.

Marvin: And so, you know, it's interesting, right? So you got on my radar screen because

Marvin: you're working on kind of developing this niche and guiding for trout at night.

Marvin: And so I was kind of curious, you know, Frank, what drew you to the night game?

Frank: Yeah so um you know i've always dabbled in night

Frank: fishing to some degree um typically it'd be

Frank: like you know you're fishing an evening hash like you're

Frank: fishing drake spinners or hex spinners or something like that and um

Frank: you know the hash winds down fish stop rising oh i heard about mousing i'll

Frank: throw this mouse on and just see what happens and maybe you catch a fish maybe

Frank: have a pull up and you know i dabbled in like night fishing like that for a

Frank: while just a handful of times a year just like for the novelty of it and then

Frank: like i said starting starting to hang hanging out with Sam Galt, um,

Frank: hearing his excitement, his enthusiasm, that really just like got me going. Right.

Frank: And so kind of how I describe it to people is like, if you are an adventurous

Frank: angler, or if you are the kind of person who's like, maybe you've done,

Frank: you've done a lot of that, you've done it all, you know, you've,

Frank: you've fished for trout,

Frank: you've, you've done some saltwater, you've kind of like went through the,

Frank: you know, the, the pieces of someone going through the fly fishing world.

Frank: Uh, the night fishing game will probably be interesting to those field too.

Frank: Um, it's different. you know you're out there there's

Frank: nobody around you you have solitude the places

Frank: that are shoulder to shoulder you know during a

Frank: hatch or during a busy time you might go out at night and there's literally

Frank: no one you know and it's such an amazing situation just have to literally have

Frank: the whole river to yourself um literally um not just figuratively um difficult

Frank: um you're blind out there you can't see you know the light spits fish so you're

Frank: not turning that light on um it's challenging.

Frank: Um it makes you feel like you're like you're a beginner again

Frank: you have to relearn things that like maybe you took for granted like

Frank: what the best even just like what the best water types of

Frank: fish is i mean that completely now has changed at night so

Frank: just like you know the whole new set of experiences to kind of work through

Frank: mentally and with your fishing um and then also what everybody thinks of you

Frank: know get the big trout um you know that might be a little overplayed uh in terms

Frank: of like uh how easy that is to run into those big trout at night uh but they're

Frank: there and And that's one of the times they feed.

Frank: And it's one of the times they make themselves available to us.

Frank: So, you know, the big trout are there.

Frank: You know, and it's a time of year, like, you know, when the fishing is hard,

Frank: you know, during the day. And the night fishing gets kind of easy and good.

Frank: You know, those water temperatures are creeping up. And, you know,

Frank: maybe people are backing off a little bit because it's low and clear. Fish are spooky.

Frank: Maybe martial temps, middle of the day. But at night, man, that's kind of like,

Frank: you know, another chance you can get after it.

Frank: And it's fun. on um so you know that's the call for all those reasons man it's an exciting game.

Marvin: Yeah it's interesting too you know for me like

Marvin: even on the non-fishing side because you know

Marvin: i generally float uh when i fish at night um but but you know like just the

Marvin: experience of like a little bit of moonlight starlight you know the wildlife

Marvin: you know hearing like you know beaver slap their tail or even better you know

Marvin: hearing that yeah toilet flush sound right when the flag goes away um oh Oh.

Frank: Yeah.

Marvin: It's just a totally different experience, right?

Frank: Yeah, you're tapping in the senses that, like, you don't need to tap into during the day. Like, sound.

Frank: Even, like, thinking about, like, not knowing where your fly lands.

Frank: I mean, you're listening for the splat of your mouse hitting the surface,

Frank: and that's how you know if you got close to the bank or not.

Frank: So you're tapping in the parts of your sensory system that you don't really have to during the day.

Frank: You mentioned the wildlife. I've had so many, like, weird wildlife experiences at night. Right.

Frank: You know, I think Sam told me one time, he's like, you know,

Frank: half of the biological world is happening out there at night.

Frank: But we're kind of oblivious to most of that as humans.

Frank: You know, we don't even pay attention to it. And it's all out there.

Frank: It's available to us and we can experience it and you can be out there.

Frank: You just can't see. Right.

Marvin: Yeah. I tell you, you know, one of the neatest things, and it's not really wildlife, it's fishing.

Marvin: But, you know, fishing at night on the Watauga and floating out into the lake

Marvin: and moving like, you know, 50 and 60 striper schools.

Marvin: You know, fish kind of, yeah, kind of, kind of wild.

Marvin: Right. Cause there's stripers in that system too. And so you're coming out and,

Marvin: you know, you're done, you know, trying to get Mr.

Marvin: Big Brown Trout and, you know, you turn your light on and you've got like pods

Marvin: of like, you know, 40 to 60 striped bass.

Frank: That's awesome. Yeah, we definitely don't have that here. And I think like,

Frank: you know, you mentioned like the floating dynamic.

Frank: Unfortunately, again, my local areas, we don't have rivers that can like sustain

Frank: a reasonable float at night.

Frank: When the night fishing conditions are good.

Frank: You know, if I drove three hours in a direction, I might have some of that.

Frank: But you know, my bread and butter stuff is not really, you know, available on a boat.

Frank: You know, we can float rivers when they're kind of too high to wade in our area,

Frank: like our mainstay rivers.

Frank: River so i don't get the chance to fish them at night as much but like i guess

Frank: like to talk about the differences there like what are you what is the process

Frank: like how much water are you guys covering how far are you floating at night

Frank: um how much how long are you spending in a run or a pool are you moving a lot

Frank: or you know what's what's your basic game plan so i can kind of bounce off that.

Marvin: Yeah i mean so you know i would say the float is probably not quite as long

Marvin: as like a traditional day float right but but i mean you know not unusual to

Marvin: like put on um you know it kind of depends on how you're doing it but you know

Marvin: you could like you know put on like in uh

Marvin: like two or three o'clock in the afternoon kind of quote normal fish right and

Marvin: then kind of eat dinner at dusk and then fish until like four or five o'clock

Marvin: in the morning and so that's.

Frank: How that lasts a long day.

Marvin: Yeah i mean yeah you do it back to back it'll really kind of wear you out But,

Marvin: I mean, I would say since you're fishing, you know, you're not generally going

Marvin: back and refishing areas.

Marvin: You're kind of just kind of consistently kind of working down the river.

Frank: And.

Marvin: You know, I would.

Frank: Say— You're not anchoring up really too much or anything.

Marvin: No. And I would say, too, like, you know, not really anchoring up.

Marvin: And, you know, current's relatively slow. And so, you know, you're just kind

Marvin: of consistently, you know, kind of working your way down the river,

Marvin: maybe sneaking peaks at the bank with your headlamp every now and again,

Marvin: just to make sure that you kind of have an idea about what's coming up.

Marvin: And yeah, and then I don't row the boat for the record.

Frank: So I know that river.

Marvin: Yeah, I deeply trust the folks that I fish with on the Watauga and the South

Marvin: Holston because, I mean, you know, when you're starting to float through,

Marvin: like, you know, Class II rapids in the dark, it makes it kind of interesting.

Frank: Right, right, trying to know your lines.

Marvin: Yeah, and so, you know, I would say that, and then I would say probably compared

Marvin: to how you do it, there's probably a little bit more light pollution,

Marvin: you know, because sections of the South Holston and the Watauga are relatively close to the road.

Marvin: Obviously there are people that like to have houses on the river there's also

Marvin: you know not an insignificant amount

Marvin: of what I would kind of consider light industrial right so you might have a

Marvin: warehouse that's got like you know spotlights and stuff but you know the flip

Marvin: side of that is you know from a wildlife perspective you get to see like you

Marvin: know heron and osprey at night basically looking for shadows to try to find

Marvin: a fish that makes a mistake.

Frank: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's pretty cool. I mean, I love to do that.

Frank: That sounds, that sounds awesome.

Frank: I mean, just, just from hearing your description though, like the big differences

Frank: that pop out as you describe what that's like would be, um, I can fish at night for a lot less.

Frank: Like I don't have to commit such a big night, you know, you know,

Frank: if I have work the next day, I can go out and if it's, especially this time

Frank: of year, we're, we're now in late September, you're getting shorter.

Frank: I can get out of like, you know, maybe eight o'clock nine, eight 30 and it's already dark.

Frank: And if that moon doesn't come up to 11 you know i might i might fish you know

Frank: 8 30 to 11 get home i'm in bed by before midnight and i can get uh six seven

Frank: hours of sleep which you know maybe i should get my full eight but you know

Frank: it's you know at least i guess a respectable amount of sleep and you know i'm

Frank: at work the next day so there's that less commitment,

Frank: um and like you alluded to like i will like refish

Frank: water that's really good on foot um and really work it thoroughly there's and

Frank: i do with a lot of confidence like on that third second pass I have just as

Frank: much faith that that big fish is going to eat on that second and third pass

Frank: because sometimes it takes those fish a second to kind of settle in the spot,

Frank: especially right after dark.

Frank: And then also just like the nature of it being harder for them to find the food.

Frank: You know, you might just simply miss them and you might just kind of pass by

Frank: them. And, you know, you got to give those fish a chance to eat your fly.

Frank: So I have no qualms with, you know, hitting the same spot two and three times

Frank: over and kind of being more thorough.

Frank: And then, you know, obviously you got the weighting factors.

Frank: Or you're stumbling out there at night, you kind of have to know the river,

Frank: pick sections of the river that you are comfortable wading based on your skill

Frank: level, what you're good at, what you know.

Frank: You can really night fish anywhere that you can wade, but it might be smart

Frank: to kind of pick and choose your spots wisely there.

Marvin: Yeah, urgent care is probably not something you want to add to the dance card, I would imagine.

Frank: No, and I've had my trips to the hospital for different things I've laid,

Frank: but hopefully night fishing doesn't get me there either. Yeah.

Marvin: And so kind of in your neck of the woods, you know, where do you like to fish at night?

Frank: Yeah. So, I mean, like, you know, I live in the Cumberland Valley.

Frank: So that would be like the Yellow Breaches and all of our famous spring creeks that are in this area.

Frank: And that's kind of my local haunts that, you know, I guide, you know,

Frank: that water in the day most. And that's where I'm fishing, you know, locally.

Frank: But also like your central PA, like stream reports that you do with George,

Frank: all those rivers that you mentioned on that, They all fish very well at night

Frank: and have something to offer to us at night.

Frank: So, you know, you have that. And then also, man, like anywhere I've traveled

Frank: to, like vacation-wise, like the Rocky Mountain West, a ton of night fishing

Frank: I've done in Colorado with a good bit of success there.

Frank: A little bit in wyoming here and there um i've

Frank: avoided night fishing where i think i could run into a grizzly

Frank: bear because it's kind of freaks me out even though it's probably not likely

Frank: it's still man i don't i don't trust that so i'm not nice fish some of those

Frank: places at least not not waiting i wouldn't do a waiting but um you know so you

Frank: got some wildlife in some parts of the country that might uh make me a little

Frank: hesitant but overall man like you know it's pretty safe thing to do and i've

Frank: not done almost anywhere i've fished except for you know some of those densely,

Frank: grizzly populated places like you know that freaks me out so i've avoided that yeah.

Marvin: It's kind of funny because i would say you know i fished out west a fair amount

Marvin: and i'm more scared of moose and bison than i am a grizzly bears.

Frank: Sure and i think a moose at night would be like you know your you know your

Frank: sneak off the willows along a bank uh you know freaking colorado and that there

Frank: could definitely be moose there,

Frank: um i think about cats you know they're way more active and you know your mountain

Frank: lions and everything so that's been in the back of my mind you you know, on Colorado.

Frank: And, you know, typically I'm trying to go with other people or, you know, keep a light.

Frank: Like if I've been freaked out, whether it was for a good reason or not,

Frank: I like taking my headlamp and turn it on and shine it backwards off the back of my head.

Frank: So like think that like, oh, if a cat's going to sneak up on me or some animals

Frank: out there, that might spook it a little bit.

Frank: So I don't know if that works or not or if that's even, you know, worth doing.

Frank: But that's something that you do to kind of calm the nerves when you're in a

Frank: place where you think like, oh man, what if there's something there?

Frank: You know i've done stuff like that so it's fun it's interesting it's funny if nothing else yeah.

Marvin: It's a good story and so you know in terms of you know when you're waiting uh

Marvin: kind of where you like to fish you know you know how do you find good night

Marvin: water and you know what are kind of your optimal conditions for night fishing.

Frank: Sure yep so in

Frank: terms of like the water types we'll start with that um i

Frank: would say like the the water that's adjacent to the

Frank: good daytime water is kind of what you're looking for that's maybe

Frank: a little slower maybe a little shallower softer um a place where a fish could

Frank: like leave this daytime holding line slide into like a prime feeding spot where

Frank: it can you know take advantage of a you know crayfish or a mouse or you know

Frank: whatever it might be you know that's what you're looking for um so that can be you know,

Frank: the tail out to pools the shallows below or above

Frank: a really nice run um something in your structure

Frank: where it wouldn't you could reasonably imagine like okay a

Frank: big fish lives under this log maybe drops back 10 feet into these shallows and

Frank: eats a crayfish every couple nights you know those kind of places so that's

Frank: the type of water just generally slower calm or stuff than maybe what you fish

Frank: during the day um and then you mentioned like conditions um you know typically

Frank: the warmer Summer months are your best bet.

Frank: I mean, especially in places that have some thermal scenario going on where

Frank: fish feed more at night for thermal reasons.

Frank: That's definitely, you know, I tried and chewed away the fish at night.

Frank: But, you know, I like a clear night, as little ambient light as possible,

Frank: as little moonlight as possible.

Frank: Sometimes clouds can help or hurt that problem. Like, you know,

Frank: clouds might block out the moon, but clouds can also reflect light from a town.

Frank: So you kind of have to, you know, think about what you're doing and kind of

Frank: calculate the moon and light situations.

Frank: And I've found that generally the fish are feeding better on a darker night

Frank: and especially the bigger fish.

Frank: Not to say you can't go out on the full moon and find the shadows and hit those

Frank: spots and get a fish to eat.

Frank: But generally I'm making those darker nights, um, clear water.

Frank: I definitely don't like dirty water.

Frank: And I'm definitely trying to avoid the fog on the surface.

Frank: Uh, when you get like a, you know, maybe the water's, um, kind of warm or cold.

Frank: And then the temperature there temperature is like dramatically different you

Frank: get that surface fog at night um that can cause some problems i don't know why

Frank: but the fish don't like that so that's something i avoid but yeah you're looking

Frank: for those clear nights like a starry night no moon late summer early fall pre-spawn

Frank: those are like my favorite conditions.

Marvin: Got it and i know you know when we were talking before we uh we did the interview

Marvin: you were telling me that there's actually a difference between night fishing

Marvin: at spring creek versus a freestone.

Frank: Stone yeah definitely um the big thing is

Frank: the consistency in water temperature like i'll need

Frank: one river for each to get to give a example for

Frank: those who might know spots that are not you know

Frank: no secrets you said we have in my area i have a little torch spring run that

Frank: runs right through carlisle where i live and that's you know 50 some degrees

Frank: every single day of the year it's not changing it is what it is the fish are

Frank: spooky during the day and from my experience they're They're also spooky during

Frank: the night. You know, they're not necessarily...

Frank: They haven't let their guard down. I think they feel vibrations.

Frank: The way the banks are, I think they feel vibrations.

Frank: I've walked up to the bank at night in pitchback conditions,

Frank: and I've seen big fish push lakes off the bank.

Frank: They felt me coming up to the bank. So they're still spooky.

Frank: And they're also less predictable in those spring creeks because they don't

Frank: have to feed at night for a thermal reason.

Frank: A good example where they have to feed at night for a thermal reason would be

Frank: Penns Creek that I know you guys talk about in your stream report out there.

Frank: Um pens you know it has uh definitely some

Frank: sketchy temperatures during the summer um so

Frank: you know the best time the most predictable time to

Frank: fish a river like that the freestone in pens has some limestone

Frank: influence of spring influence way up top but as it goes you know

Frank: farther down it's more like a freestone um what you'll

Frank: find is like if you have a day where maybe the daytime

Frank: temps are creeping up into low 70s high 60s and

Frank: you want to lay off the trout you know for for thermal reasons seasons

Frank: um at that same night you know let the sun

Frank: go down for a few hours and it might drop down to 62 60 when

Frank: those fish are ready to feed they have to feed so because

Frank: they have to take advantage of that like window for their

Frank: metabolism it's like when it's healthier for them to be active um they're going

Frank: to be interested in eating stuff at night no matter what it is uh surface subsurface

Frank: anything they're on it so um you know that's an interesting little dynamic and

Frank: And I think a freestone or something that has a temperature,

Frank: a predictable temperature swing, you can get that really predictable night.

Frank: But not to say, though, that on the Spring Creek or a tailwater where you have

Frank: that consistent temp, you can get into some good night fishing there, too.

Frank: But it just might not be as like, you know, not clockwork in the same way because

Frank: the fish don't have to feed then.

Marvin: Got it. And, you know, kind of moving on to gear, you know, what's your kind

Marvin: of preferred, you know, rod reel and terminal tackle setup for night fishing?

Frank: Yeah, so in my area, I'm the only one with a 9'6". Like a Scott Centric,

Frank: it's one of my favorite rods I ever casted ever. So, like, it's fun to use at night.

Frank: Any fast action 9'6", I also have a Loomis IMS Pro that I use because I unfortunately broke my Centric.

Frank: So, picked up that rod a little back up, and that's a great rod, too.

Frank: Any stiff 9'6 is kind of perfect for our area.

Frank: You know, out of the boat, or if you are really fishing big flies,

Frank: you could totally go up to a 7 or 8 weight it's not going to hurt you,

Frank: that's an option but for what I do a 6 weight, your reel pick your reel,

Frank: it doesn't matter fly line is pretty important I like the Scientific Angler Infinity Glow,

Frank: the Infinity Taper is kind of ideal it's a good line for mending,

Frank: it's a long taper it's not like an aggressive like an MPX or something like

Frank: that, it's real front heavy,

Frank: that's nice for mending and mending was an important part of my presentation

Frank: so that's why i prefer that line i think it's real gold makes a um a nightline

Frank: to a glow line to a dsa a little bit better for casting big flies and mending

Frank: so i like that better um have you fished a glow do you guys fish glow lines right yeah.

Marvin: I've done that i was just kind of curious on the taper is the taper kind of

Marvin: similar like the titan long.

Frank: Uh yeah but not

Frank: as overly it's similar to the in concept but it's

Frank: not as go over over lined right so the infinity

Frank: is a half size heavy and i think the titan long

Frank: might be up to two line weights heavy so um

Frank: similar in concept but um you know

Frank: i like the uh just kind of straightforward and you know close to

Frank: line weight but a little half size heavy and then the mending of that

Frank: is kind of why i like it so much you know

Frank: for the casting and while i what i do the mpx

Frank: might be better or some of the more like shooting head style lines might be

Frank: a little little better for casting these flies but when it comes to the presentation

Frank: which you know if you know how to cast you're gonna get your fly out there uh

Frank: then the mending and the control the line control i think that's way more important

Frank: so that's why i kind of go down to that uh infinity kind of why i i prefer that yeah.

Marvin: I mean i think the glow in the dark line it really is a game changer right i

Marvin: mean you know um you know like one of the cool things right if you even if you

Marvin: don't charge the entire line and so for folks that aren't familiar basically

Marvin: what you do is you take Take your UV light from your tying bench and use that

Marvin: to charge your line, right? You just ball it up in your hand and zap it.

Marvin: But one of the cool things you can do is you can actually charge sections of the line, right?

Marvin: So you can have like a two-inch section charged and then move up a foot, you know?

Marvin: And so the great thing, right, is you can have really sensitive strike detection

Marvin: if you need it because you just kind of watch the orientation of those like

Marvin: glowing parts to see if they change just like fishing, like,

Marvin: you know, two little, uh, stick on indicators. Right.

Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can do, you can do a lot of cool stuff with the glow line.

Frank: And, you know, I'm always torn on like, whether I'm going to charge it up or not.

Frank: I mean, generally I don't, because I kind of just like simply for the fun of

Frank: it, enjoy not having the added advantage of that glow line. Right.

Frank: I kind of get a kick out of that.

Frank: Right. Just like completely being blind is fun to me.

Frank: So I choose that even though it's a disadvantage, but if I'm guiding or taking

Frank: somebody out, that's new.

Frank: So many times i've seen people like maybe struggling

Frank: to cast or like being completely clueless on

Frank: what's going on and i charge that lineup for them and they're like oh and

Frank: changes them as an angler it makes them like very competent all

Frank: of a sudden and i've seen that happen a couple times and

Frank: it's a cool thing um if i'm fishing on familiar water i'll

Frank: certainly charge it up if i don't know what my swing is

Frank: doing if i'm not kind of sure what's going on out there where i'm

Frank: laying or whatever you know it definitely uh solves that problem

Frank: so i certainly have it on all the time on a night fish um it's

Frank: even like just white and to begin with so it's

Frank: a lighter it's not like an olive or anything like that like a normal fly line

Frank: off it is so like just the fact that it's white in certain conditions i see

Frank: it without even charging it sometimes um i see it enough anyway and you know

Frank: it's a great line i said so i wouldn't i wouldn't be fishing with anything other

Frank: than that line even if i didn't charge it so so it's the way to go yeah.

Marvin: And so what do you put on the business end of the fly line what's your leader and no tippet set up.

Frank: Yeah, I kind of do a store-bought, you know, tapered, real big, nasty.

Frank: I go to a, basically it's a six-foot, really aggressive leader going down to 16-pound.

Frank: And I put a little micro swivel, prevent some twists.

Frank: Like certain flies that we might be fishing, like a Harvey pusher will certainly

Frank: twist lighter, you know, tippets and everything.

Frank: So not that I'm fishing light tippet, but, you know, anytime you're fishing

Frank: big, resistant flies, you could have impart some twists. So I'll put that micro-soil

Frank: on and then a short piece of 12 or 16-pound fluorobarbon for the abrasion resistance.

Frank: A fluoro, I like that pink umpqua stuff that they just came out with a year or two ago.

Frank: That's been good for me. That's kind of what I use. And I think it's like a

Frank: saltwater fluoro. That's how they market it. But I use it at night.

Frank: No, I'll fish 12-pound if I'm trying to go subsurface.

Frank: It sinks a little bit better. if i'm on the surface though where sinking is

Frank: not a factor i'm going i'm gonna open up to 16 pounds so pretty heavy stuff yeah.

Marvin: And it's always great and that's kind of one of the things you kind of at least

Marvin: for me when i started making that transition and fishing more at night is you

Marvin: know you you know you're not fishing six or seven x i mean you know when you

Marvin: hook a fish you can you know strip him in because you're not going to break him off.

Frank: You know you can if that hook

Frank: is buried you can you can play that fish with confidence you

Frank: get them in fast less chances for things to go wrong you know

Frank: sometimes at night i've found like sometimes the fish really freak out and sometimes

Frank: they're just like they're just kind of fooling around like they do during the

Frank: day it kind of depends no matter what they're doing you can really put the wood

Frank: to them with that you know if you have a 16 pound on there and it's just like

Frank: a brown trout in pennsylvania even if it's a huge one you're not going to break

Frank: the fish off unless you've messed up your knots,

Frank: so you know or you have like some nick in your leader from some hitting something

Frank: you know you didn't even know about that's the only way you're breaking the

Frank: fish off so yeah definitely that heavy stuff is a huge advantage yeah.

Marvin: And so what are some of the other gear that you need to have if you're going

Marvin: to go out and fish at night.

Frank: Yeah so definitely the lights um

Frank: the headlamp is crucial you need

Frank: it to tie knots you need it to get around a little bit um i always suggest a

Frank: headlamp that has a red red light option that is turning on first if possible

Frank: um so like you have the option to turn it on first or cycles do it first either

Frank: way um reason for that is obviously Obviously, the white light can spook a trout,

Frank: so if I wanna tie a knot or something that I don't really wanna blow my spot

Frank: up, I'll turn that red light on.

Frank: Catching a small fish that I wanna take a picture of, but it's not worthy of

Frank: a white light, use the red light for that.

Frank: And not going white first, it's big there. And then obviously,

Frank: a nice, good white light for getting around or taking that picture of the big

Frank: one that you got. So the headlamp's super important.

Frank: Um, from there, um, definitely the, on the other end of the likes,

Frank: um, the handheld light is pretty important for my system.

Frank: I gain a lot of information after I'm done fishing a piece of water.

Frank: I'll shine that light and a really bright, like light, like a,

Frank: um, 2000 lumen, like kind of a light.

Frank: And I'll hit the water from the position where you're up a little bit,

Frank: like from a boat, I could see like not being able to even see the fish from

Frank: afar because you don't have the right angle, but you're up in the bank going straight down.

Frank: Shine that and blast that big light on them and you'll see if those fish are

Frank: where they should be on a good night if they're in the shallows and they're

Frank: hanging in a couple inches of water yeah like they were feeding they're not

Frank: in there for no reason so that light gives us a ton of information,

Frank: so you know on the light end of things I think it's important to have both I

Frank: fish with a lot of people that don't have a handheld light and I think it prevents

Frank: you from gaining some information certainly I don't fish a spot anchor I've

Frank: shined a light on it because I have no confidence that those fish are,

Frank: not spooked but you know once you're done you know and before you move spots

Frank: you can get a lot of information from that handheld yeah.

Marvin: And also too just to let folks know that you know the reason that the red light

Marvin: is so important is it doesn't mess up your night vision.

Frank: Yeah oh yeah i forgot forgot to mention that absolutely yep yeah.

Marvin: Because i mean kind of one of the the great things and bad things for fishing

Marvin: at night is all these new headlamps are super bright and so you know the like

Marvin: i mean just compared to like you know i don't know i've probably got like a

Marvin: 10 year old black diamond and I've got one I bought last year when I got a little

Marvin: bit more serious about fishing at night.

Marvin: And I mean, the difference in the, the lumen output is insane, right?

Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a dimmable one?

Marvin: I do. And it's pretty cool. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, um, it's awesome.

Marvin: And, you know, it's great too, cause you can even dim the red light, right? Um, yes.

Frank: Yeah.

Marvin: So super helpful, you know, other than the light stuff, what else do you think

Marvin: folks should bring with them when they get out and fish in the dark?

Frank: Yeah, other than your typical everyday fishing stuff that you bring anywhere,

Frank: probably the wading staff for a lot of people,

Frank: especially the less familiar you are with a piece of water or the slicker it

Frank: is when you can't see, having a third leg there with that wading staff is super helpful.

Frank: That third point of contact is a good thing.

Frank: If you're fishing with friends, and especially if you are not so confident in

Frank: your friend's casting, or maybe you are, but maybe you're going to sneak up

Frank: on them or whatever, a lot of people might fish with safety glasses.

Frank: Glasses um i don't like it because i have

Frank: pretty good vision i i think i see more night than some people

Frank: say they do so um i don't like anything in the way but if you have a real nice

Frank: clear new pair of safety glasses you can see pretty well and you don't want

Frank: to get hooked in the eye with like a size one or a size two barbed behind hook

Frank: uh flying through the air because your friend didn't know that you were sneaking

Frank: up behind them to see how they were doing you know that's

Frank: something that some people fish with and i will situationally hop

Frank: their safety glasses on then yeah you know little things like you know if you

Frank: are around some wildlife maybe the bear spray things like that i mean don't

Frank: really need it in pennsylvania unless uh you know you run into uh you know maybe

Frank: a person would be more likely i'm the most dangerous thing you run into around

Frank: here but uh you know depending where you are the bear spray for the wildlife might be smart,

Frank: When your trip's around at night, you know, you'll get surprised by some animal

Frank: no matter where you are, and you don't want it to be a dangerous one.

Frank: So, it might be smart depending on where you're at.

Marvin: Yeah, and I'd say on the safety glasses front, because, I mean,

Marvin: you know, I don't like it, but I wear them.

Marvin: You know, I've found, I guess, like at Home Depot or Lowe's,

Marvin: they're those clear ones that, you know, fit really closely,

Marvin: so they're not really big and bulky, and they seem to work relatively well.

Marvin: And you're right, right? Like, you know, don't scratch the snot out of them,

Marvin: or they're not going to work very well.

Frank: But you.

Marvin: Know when they're pretty new not so bad.

Frank: Yeah when they're new when they're new they're good and you know if

Frank: i was in a boat like you know you said you must your experience is

Frank: in a boat um that's probably where you want to have them on i probably wouldn't

Frank: fish in a boat without them you know so when you're waiting and you know you're

Frank: 100 yards away from your from your buddy or whatever like you can kind of like

Frank: put them on if you're kind of getting into the danger zone and take them off

Frank: when you're not um you know if you're confident with your own casting and you

Frank: know big thing the big time where you could maybe hook yourself

Frank: and this is the reason i don't go even heavier with my

Frank: tip is like if you can snag on the other side of the

Frank: river and say it's like a river you can't cross like i

Frank: was fishing the upper delaware one time standing on the far bank zero

Frank: percent chance i could cross where i was at waiting you

Frank: know what i mean and i'm like man what do i do if this fly

Frank: breaks off and well it doesn't it doesn't if

Frank: i get it off the snag and it just zings back at me really fast like that's sort

Frank: of dangerous with that d hook coming at me so um you know having a tippet size

Frank: that you can break when you have to is a nice little thing because sometimes

Frank: it's just better if it breaks versus like it flying back at your face at night

Frank: so something to think about yeah.

Marvin: It's actually while you're saying that i was just thinking about i think within

Marvin: the last two weeks um i think chris willen had to extract a hook out of the back of his head.

Frank: Oh yes yeah and i.

Marvin: Don't think he was fishing in the dark but it looked pretty gruesome.

Marvin: I think he went to the emergency room and from what I saw on Instagram,

Marvin: he actually had to get the hook out himself.

Frank: Yikes, yeah. Yeah, no fun. You don't want to do that at any time,

Frank: especially not at night because it's no easier, right?

Marvin: Yeah, and so talking about flies, tell me a little bit about what you like to

Marvin: fish and how you select flies as you fish throughout the evening.

Frank: Yeah, so you can fish nymphs and dry flies at night with a lot of success.

Frank: It's not really what I'm out there trying to do. I'm looking for a predatory

Frank: fish to eat something interesting, right? Something big and fun.

Frank: Um now that doesn't have to be a big fish there's a lot of

Frank: predatory 12 inch trout that are willing to eat your mouse or your streamer

Frank: right so it's not necessarily only big fish but i

Frank: really like like those predatory fish so um with

Frank: five i'm breaking them down into a few categories um you

Frank: got your surface patterns right and that's like your mouse dial uh

Frank: hair bug style foam style patterns that are

Frank: all riding completely on the surface good example

Frank: might be like your master splinter mouse that's like

Frank: you know pretty pretty tried and true simple mouse pattern

Frank: morse mouse morse mouse something like that um surface pattern

Frank: right from there you got like your subsurface stuff um unweighted streamers

Frank: are one of the primary aspects of my night fishing game um i don't like weighted

Frank: stuff i do think the fish are more surface oriented so let's start an unweighted

Frank: streamer unless the going really gets tough i might add some splish out or add of weighted fly,

Frank: but on-weighted streamers that are fished, um,

Frank: what's in a float at the surface, really, is what it boils down to.

Frank: Um, you know, your big wets and your woolly buggers and things like that,

Frank: Harvey Pusher, they're kind of like, you gotta call them wet fly,

Frank: you know, wet flies in that kind of category.

Frank: Mostly swung, a little bit smaller, once again, kind of when the going gets

Frank: tough, that might be a good thing to try.

Frank: And then, uh, the hybrid surface flies, which, what that means is it's a surface

Frank: fly that still pushes awake,

Frank: wake but it has some part of it that's hanging below the

Frank: surface that might be articulation or just the material

Frank: it's riding a little bit lower and that gives

Frank: fish something to see that's not like on the surface film but yet at the same

Frank: time the surface is pushing awake and whatever you know you're fighting on the

Frank: surface makes that v and i think that gets their attention they see something

Frank: hanging below and i think it's a super productive style of fly um and that's what probably if a

Frank: mouse or a frog is actually on the surface probably looks a little bit more

Frank: like that than the actual mouse patterns we fish.

Frank: I'm convinced that when you think you're mousing, the fish might not actually

Frank: be eating your fly for a mouse. It could be anything.

Frank: They're eating it for like not even a thing. And like they're eating it as an opportunity, right?

Frank: So when they see that weight going across the surface, they don't know if that's

Frank: a mouse or a bait fish or whatever.

Frank: It could push a weight, right? They're just eating it. So I definitely think

Frank: something below the surface even just a few minutes an inch or two big difference

Frank: Yeah, I think you'll get a little bit more action a little bit more success

Frank: and hoping help with fish to.

Marvin: God and so a couple kind of streamer questions, you know, what's your,

Marvin: favorite kind of flavor of subsurface streamer?

Frank: Yeah, so I do like an articulated fly. Something that moves a little bit.

Frank: I have a fly that I kind of came up with.

Frank: A guy who's really a big part of the PA night fishing game. His name is Bill

Frank: Ferguson. He gave me a fly that was kind of one of his experiments.

Frank: I looked at it and I'm like, that's pretty cool. I'm going to do something similar.

Frank: I kind of based a fly off of that. I called it Cat.

Frank: It's an unweighted streamer. It has three sections. It has like a B10S number

Frank: two in the front, spun deer hair head, no leather or anything. It's just the deer hair.

Frank: Not packed so tight that it floats. You know, I want it to sink.

Frank: So it's kind of, you know, sometimes I've kind of made them too dense and they

Frank: float a little bit more than I like. So I don't overdo the density of that deer hair.

Frank: Just enough to kind of give it profile and push some water, some marabou behind it.

Frank: And then I have a shank 20mm shank to a Gamma Roost like Harris Gamma Roost

Frank: number 10 hook on the back and,

Frank: I'll trim some like chocolate game shank on those back sections quite flat and

Frank: thin and that makes the fly very like dense up front and very whimsy in the back.

Frank: It makes it swim pretty well and pushes a lot of water but it also because it's

Frank: so light in the back makes it very easy to cast and that's That's like a huge

Frank: part of like my night fishing patterns is like, I want to cast them on a six weight.

Frank: I don't want to feel like I need a seven or eight weight to throw a nice loop and get it under a tree.

Frank: So I like the cast ability of something that's like easy to cast and still moves

Frank: and still give some good action.

Frank: I don't think the specifics of a pattern at night really matter.

Frank: So like something like how easy it is to cast, like really drives like how I choose to tie my flies.

Marvin: Got it. Any color preferences fishing at night?

Frank: Yeah, so the Pennsylvania way is to fish black flies because of the contrast, right?

Frank: The idea that you're kind of blacking out and silhouetting the best with a black color.

Frank: I don't think trout see color that well at night. And obviously,

Frank: they're eating things in real life that are not black.

Frank: So certainly, you don't have to fish a black fly to have success.

Frank: I've seen plenty of people catch fish with olive. But with the black fly,

Frank: certainly is a confidence thing.

Frank: I think that in more situations, they see it better.

Frank: So that's why I go black and you know I've experimented with going all white

Frank: in full moons and stuff like that just because there is some light,

Frank: saturated in and the one time I was fishing with my buddy Alex on a very small stream and

Frank: the moon was rising like pretty early in the night so we

Frank: had like an hour of no moon but then it was like a really bright

Frank: moon came over the trees and I was like dude just

Frank: put a white stream around and he's like cool I think he even asked me should I

Frank: try a white one I'm like go for it like try anything because it

Frank: was slowing down and he put put that white thing on

Frank: and boom immediately started like getting hits like right away in

Frank: that moonlight so you know that's something i'm going to experiment with

Frank: more i haven't put my time into that like side of things but

Frank: it's something interesting to think about like you know the darker situations

Frank: kind of like dirty water going black um and in the brighter situation maybe

Frank: going the opposite going totally white um something i do uh very little like

Frank: almost never but like when the going gets tough if i am out there in full moon

Frank: something that's in my back pocket to try got.

Marvin: It and how about uh flash and rattles.

Frank: Yeah so i do try

Frank: a little bit of flash and most of my flies like just like a black

Frank: like uv polish and yellow looks like purplish strands coming off of it don't

Frank: know that that really is a factor but like i figure like okay there's star light

Frank: you might have a little bit of moon you might have a street light something

Frank: that reflects a little bit so i'll put her on there just as like uh you know

Frank: maybe it works 10 of the time And like, if so, great.

Frank: And rattles are definitely a

Frank: good idea. The fish are picking up your flies from some type of vibration.

Frank: They're not like always seeing them first. Sometimes they feel them first and

Frank: that rattle just gives them something else to feel.

Marvin: Neat. And so talk to me a little bit about kind of like how you work through

Marvin: your fly box, you know, fishing a particular spot.

Frank: Yeah so basically i'll go something confidence oriented

Frank: like my cat streamer that i like to

Frank: fish the reason i call it a cat is because i think it's better than a mouse and cat

Frank: cats eat mice so it's kind of like a i'll play on words there because i like

Frank: to poo-poo mouse fishing a little bit because i think it's funny but um no you

Frank: know i fish that cat streamer like almost always to start and if i'm fishing

Frank: a river that's dense with trout right i know there's like a good fish per

Frank: mile if they're not eating that streamer i'm gonna make

Frank: a change but i'm not gonna change to like another streamer i'm gonna

Frank: change to like a mouse or something like hybrid surface

Frank: fly or a wet or something different i'm not gonna go like one streamer to a

Frank: different streamer i think that's just like your your fly is your presentation

Frank: sometimes and like i believe in changing presentations pushing awake is a different

Frank: presentation than you know it's a five foot

Frank: or six inches out of the water right so i've changed

Frank: that first i'm not changing pretty frequently if

Frank: i'm in an intensely populated river with a lot of trout if i'm in a place where

Frank: i'm like targeting the big fish i know there's less trout i'm not going to change

Frank: as much i might fish that fly for hours and hours and hours knowing that i have

Frank: confidence in it and i'm not fishing for numbers i'm trying to get that one

Frank: i'll stick with the same fly longer than i I would otherwise.

Marvin: Got it. And so, you know, to kind of get a little bit more specific kind of

Marvin: on the attacking the water and the presentation.

Marvin: So, you know, we've scouted water, we've got our gear, we've got our flies,

Marvin: you know, talk to me a little bit about, you know, you get in the water,

Marvin: kind of how are you breaking down and attacking the water and,

Marvin: you know, what are your goals presenting the fly?

Frank: Yeah. So like I said earlier, I'm looking for that, probably a little bit slower

Frank: lower water looking for water that's adjacent to the daytime water and then

Frank: from there like all of my presentations are some type of like swing with some

Frank: type of tension you know sometimes that is like a traditional like the same

Frank: way you'd swing a soft tackle cast it down and across,

Frank: maybe give it a little men and just like hang on and let it

Frank: go right that's like the easiest way to present a fly a night

Frank: and that actually works very well in a ton of situations um as you fish more

Frank: and get a little bit better at it you can start adding some aspects to that

Frank: to kind of make your fly come alive or give it to the fish a little bit differently

Frank: maybe you're pausing it in a certain place that's key maybe you're moving it

Frank: but generally speaking i like to do minimal,

Frank: animations of the fly meaning like i'm not like making that fly go crazy you know maybe one,

Frank: man and a strip like a one man and one a good strip to bring that slack in whatever

Frank: movement minute gave that's it and I'm just gonna let that fly swing so I think

Frank: less is more when it comes to the night presentation um not necessarily.

Frank: Doing a daytime streamer thing where you're like an active retrieve at all I'm

Frank: not doing much of that now sometimes I've seen it work you know I've seen you know uh,

Frank: good friend of mine up at the state college shop his name's ben um one

Frank: time he was like stripping in a woolly bugger super fast and

Frank: like caught a 21 um out of the blue so like that to me is like who was like

Frank: oh surprising but uh you know just kind of proves that different things do work

Frank: but like from what i've seen the slower presentations are kind of like your

Frank: money on the big fish sometimes the smaller fish will key in on that fast stuff

Frank: but you know the night game is like unknown,

Frank: you know, it's like the least, um, experimented with games.

Frank: So like, I'll say this and then you might go out and strip that streamer and

Frank: really fast and catch a big fish and say, Frank, you're wrong.

Frank: And I'd be like, well, yeah, obviously, because there's an, there's hardly anyone

Frank: out here doing this. So, um, experimentation is big.

Frank: And I wouldn't, you know, I have a spot where I've never caught a good fish on top.

Frank: I've only ever caught them on streamers. And my buddy Alex came with me.

Frank: He's like, I'm going to try a mouse.

Frank: I'm like, please try it. Like, please, please run that mouse

Frank: there because if you get them to eat on top i want to see what you did i want

Frank: to learn like were you able to get them to eat that mouse because i haven't

Frank: you know so i'm thinking slower presentations i'm thinking slower water um swinging

Frank: with tension that's the starting point you can get in the weeds from there and

Frank: things to try but that's kind of what i'm thinking yeah.

Marvin: And then you were telling me too earlier in the interview that you like to kind

Marvin: of repeat and really cover the water thoroughly so you might hit somewhere two or three times right.

Frank: Absolutely Absolutely, yeah. I mean, if I know the water has the fish I'm looking

Frank: for, whether that's a big fish or just the numbers of fish, no qualms hitting it three times.

Frank: Definitely changing presentation, though, might not be a bad idea.

Frank: Just try a different thing.

Frank: Maybe you pause that fly a little longer, give it more of a dead drift for a

Frank: few feet, or maybe go for that fast switch and really rip it through the water,

Frank: just to experiment on those second and third passes, just because,

Frank: you might you might as well but on

Frank: the other hand like if i'm really confident like when

Frank: i'm the most confident in a piece of water i'll do

Frank: the same presentation that i know works over

Frank: and over again waiting for like the opportunity because it

Frank: takes fish time to see your fly they take some time i

Frank: think sometimes even settle into night water because they

Frank: go in from there what they were they're going from their daytime program to

Frank: their nighttime program maybe on pass one they weren't even there they might

Frank: have still been under the root ball but on pass three now they're there so you

Frank: can do the same exact presentation you did on pass one and catch them on pass

Frank: three and i've had that happen a lot a few places neat.

Marvin: And so you know what are some common mistakes that newbies make when they start fishing at night.

Frank: Yeah, the big, like, technical mistake that's, like, very easy to solve,

Frank: like, well, easy to explain, but hard to get people to actually do is the hook set, right?

Frank: When you're swinging a fly downstream, current's taking it out, there's some tension.

Frank: The less you do, sometimes the better. Sometimes these fish will hook themselves

Frank: because they're going to grab that fly and turn away and swim away.

Frank: If you just hold your ground and, you know, grab one of that rod real tight

Frank: and hang on to your cork and just wait for it, it's going to happen, right?

Frank: But one of the big mistakes we can do is lift that rod and rip that fly upwards

Frank: to the way you would set for a non-nymph, right?

Frank: That's not what we want to do at night. So many people are bottom or nymphing,

Frank: you know, here or nymphing, whatever, where you need a fast hook set.

Frank: That is just like the opposite instinct that you want. Your default should be

Frank: nothing when you feel something.

Frank: And then like, as the fish gives you more, you can then kind of give it more back, right?

Frank: So like if this fish is, sometimes like you'll feel, especially on subsurface

Frank: spots, It feels weird to tap.

Frank: Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. It gets faster. The worst thing you can do is rip that

Frank: fly out because it's not hooked.

Frank: It's not even in their mouth. It's not really ready to be hooked.

Frank: But as they start to swim away, that tap can get heavier and heavier.

Frank: The heavier you feel something on the end of your rod, like on your line,

Frank: you can then give that, with a low angle with your rod, you can give that pressure

Frank: back, but you can't do it. You can't rush it, right?

Frank: Maybe you have some slack. You have to maybe set the hook a little bit,

Frank: it but lots of times we don't have slack we have tension so less is more don't

Frank: lift the rod let the fish kind of swim away and then kind of give them the wood got.

Marvin: It uh any other tips you're willing to share with our listeners tonight.

Frank: Yeah i mean there's a ton i mean things to avoid um we've talked about it a

Frank: little bit but like avoid the bright lights avoid the bright moon you might

Frank: break that rule and have some success but like typically like time and time

Frank: again we see that's That's a problem.

Frank: Dense fall on the surface is something to avoid. Sometimes you can't see that

Frank: until you turn your light on. It can be problematic.

Frank: I'm not sure why. It might affect their ability to see things close to the surface,

Frank: but the fall there might just affect the way things silhouette.

Frank: It might be a little muddier to them, sort of, as I describe it.

Frank: So maybe they aren't as confident to take that risk to go and eat your fly.

Frank: On the same note, the muddy, colored-up water, not my favorite thing.

Frank: Well you know on the other hand like you know when

Frank: you're out there you know um be willing to experiment i

Frank: kind of alluded to it before but try different things and you

Frank: know there might be something that's specific to your water type like we

Frank: don't really see what they're eating at night they might be eating something that does

Frank: swim quite fast through the shallows and where you're at and maybe a fast presentation

Frank: i'm telling you to go slow but maybe fasting here you know particular river

Frank: might be a good thing so we really don't see everything so don't be afraid afraid

Frank: to try things that are that are a little bit off the off the program and sometimes

Frank: it does uh result in some success for you yeah.

Marvin: And uh is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before i let you go.

Frank: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple little things, like, about the nature of fishing

Frank: at night and, like, certain properties, right?

Frank: A lot of our stuff in Pennsylvania isn't, like, true public land.

Frank: It's, like, private but not private, where, like, the landowners are,

Frank: like, cool with fishing.

Frank: They'll let people fish during the day. They have no problem with it. They won't think twice.

Frank: But maybe that same landowner is not expecting someone to be walking through

Frank: their cornfield at night with a flashlight on, and that might raise some red flags to them.

Frank: So, like, definitely be a little courteous to the situation.

Frank: Situation um you don't want to have run-ins with other

Frank: people at night when you can possibly avoid especially like a

Frank: grumpy landowner or someone who's just like you know

Frank: maybe they're freaked out that someone's poking around their land that night with

Frank: a light on so they might be open during the day but just be

Frank: mindful of that and if you are going to try those places maybe

Frank: don't hoot and holler when you catch a day one or

Frank: like don't shine your light towards people's windows when they're trying

Frank: to sleep you know just courteous things those are something else

Frank: to keep in mind and just so that like you don't lose that opportunity

Frank: because like you know you make someone mad or freak

Frank: somebody out they might say no way no one's fishing here now

Frank: it freaks me out like you don't want to do that you don't lose your lose your

Frank: spot or lose your access so be mindful and respectful of uh landowners that

Frank: are out there and uh you know public water you know like uh state forest land

Frank: or something you can be kind of less concerned with that sort of thing to let

Frank: your guard down but uh certainly if you're like dealing with private property

Frank: not a bad idea to say, hey, say,

Frank: you know, Sarma or whatever, like, do you mind if I, you know,

Frank: there's this water, and I've done that before, and people don't really care.

Frank: They just want to, like, be aware. That's all.

Marvin: Yeah. It's interesting, too, because the wrinkle when you're in a boat is,

Marvin: you know, you sometimes meet some very interesting people in the wee hours of

Marvin: the morning at boat ramps.

Frank: Oh, boy. Yeah, boat ramps, man. That's probably a magnet for the wrong crowd.

Frank: People parking and doing God knows what.

Frank: Yeah, definitely something. I run into it more like when I'm fishing the Latour.

Frank: And, you know, we're close to the PA Turnpike. We're close to Interstate 81.

Frank: We're close to Carlisle. Major hotels all along the Latour.

Frank: Shipping and stuff, like freight kind of stuff coming in and around,

Frank: in and in and out. So, like, you get some characters.

Frank: I've had some odd run-ins. uh one time i had

Frank: a landowner like shining his light at me and thought

Frank: i because he saw me fish he saw me shining my light i was looking for fish and

Frank: you know i went up to him and talked to him because i didn't want to alarm him i

Frank: said hey i'm just fishing like hope it's all cool and he was like yeah well

Frank: right before you came through somebody on the other side was just walking around

Frank: with no light and i thought it was real weird so i was on my guard and i saw

Frank: you and i was like well that wasn't me because i was on the firebank so you

Frank: know that kind of freaked me out because like there was a dude right across

Frank: from i had no idea god knows what he was doing was he

Frank: homeless was he just some dude at the hotel staying there and

Frank: uh uh just walk around who knows

Frank: well i mean you can't begin to guess what people are doing out there at midnight

Frank: or something so yeah be be on the be on your guard and you know be smart you

Frank: know definitely some uh strange situations happen at night whether it's the

Frank: fish or the people or anything that's definitely something to you know think

Frank: about but it keeps it interesting right yeah.

Marvin: Fish with a buddy and carrier bear spray.

Frank: Yeah for the people right yeah yeah and.

Marvin: So frank if someone wanted to book a day or a night on the water with you or

Marvin: follow your fishing adventures where should they go.

Frank: Yeah so you can hit me up on instagram my instagram handle is uh frank fly fishes

Frank: um but then you can also call if you don't have you're not on instagram you

Frank: could call like any of our tco locations i'm down in boiling springs i'm a guide

Frank: there through relentless fly fishing fishing, um,

Frank: mostly I do run like the occasional, like odd trip for state college when they're

Frank: over book. So you could call them and they know me up there too.

Frank: So call one of the TCO shops and ask for me or hit me up directly on social

Frank: and I know I will get it squared away.

Marvin: Uh, very cool. Well, I appreciate you spending some time with me this evening

Marvin: and, uh, helping me as I go more and more down the rat hole about fishing at night for big trout.

Frank: Awesome, man. So it was great fun.

Marvin: Absolutely. Take care.

Frank: Hey man, have a good one.

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