00:00:06 Sana: It is a kind of pain most of us carry without naming. It's the weight of, uh, something we we loved and lost. Someone who left a version of ourselves. We had to. We had to say goodbye to a future that never got to happen. Yeah, we are, we are said. We are. We are taught to move on, to move past it, to be strong, to keep going. But then it's not simple. You know, grief doesn't really care about us, our schedule. It just sits with us until we sit with it. And maybe that's the invitation. It's not about fixing it, not outrunning it, not ignoring it, but to slow down enough to let it actually speak. Let it voice.

00:01:00 Sana: So welcome to the Mindful Living. I am your host, as always here for you. And today we are going to slow this conversation right down. We are going to talk about grief, about meditation, about energy work, and about what it means to let life itself become the teacher. When everything you thought you knew, it falls away. And I'm joined by someone you know. She's an international writer, actor, producer known for her original plays at the Extravaganza Theatre Festival in LA and her award winning short films because I could, and a portrayal of a subtle suicide and her personal transformation show, and Limit Yourself. She's also just released a new book of short plays designed to put life into perspective. So yeah, listeners, let's, let's begin with this tender, beautiful conversation and let's welcome our guest, Nikki Barker. Nikki, welcome to the show. I'm really, really looking forward to our conversation today. Honestly.

00:02:08 Niki J Borger : Thank you so much for this amazing introduction, Sana. I really appreciate it. And it's such an honor to be here today.

00:02:15 Sana: Thank you. Thank you so much, Nikki. And you know what, Nikki? When I was reading the intro, um, it kind of got me a bit nostalgic. Um, about a, a version of life, which I could have, but it did not happen. Uh, I believe I did not get the time to lament or, you know, to process that because I thought if I pause or if I, uh, do anything, just, you know, stop for some time and think about it, um, I'll become a bigger loser because at that point of time, I thought I am a loser. Uh, and honestly, it's a very difficult place to be in. And it's different for different, you know, people out there. I'm very sure listeners are definitely going to, um, find some, some part of themselves through this conversation. So I really appreciate you bringing up this topic and for the work as well that you're doing.

00:03:17 Niki J Borger : Thank you so much for saying that. I, I'm sorry you had that experience, but already in the way that you framed it and you introduced it to all of us. I think a lot of people can relate to that experience. And for me too, it was so interesting to experience that when you're going through loss, you almost always experience more losing at the same time, whether you know if the loss is personal and your personal life, at least for me, I also lost a lot of opportunities in my career and my job and my friendships and everything around that. So it seems like something that goes hand in hand, and I don't think it's talked about at all. So thank you for bringing this up.

00:04:05 Speaker 4: Thank you. Thank you so much, Nikki

00:04:07 Sana: Uh, grief. Um, I mean, goodness, it's one of the most misunderstood experiences in, modern life. Uh, we have been handed this idea of it as a process with stages. Um, and I'm not saying that it's wrong or it's something which is not the correct version. It may be a type of, a way of interpreting grief, but then from your own experience, Nicky, and from the way you write, you create around it. What do you think? Are we getting wrong about what grief really is?

00:04:45 Niki J Borger : I think the biggest misconception is that grief is just sadness. It's really not. Grief is a whole lot of emotions that are in there. And while there are stages to grieving overall, I think the emotional mix that is coming with it is very individual and really depends on the relationship that you had with that person. And from my from my experience, it will hit you at, you know, the most random times with the most random emotions, and you just have to figure out how to deal with that in the moment. And I think that is very misconceived. You know, people who haven't experienced this yet, they think, okay, grief is, you know, you're just very, very sad and upset and, you know, maybe a little lethargic and things feel heavier, but that's just a part of what is happening. There's so much more going on emotionally when you're grieving.

00:05:50 Sana: I think a lot of listeners, they have been quietly waiting for someone or, in some way or the other to give them that permission to stop, um, performing, especially healing or recovery. Uh, and, uh, I think it's more about presence. That's why I believe, uh, the mindful living is, uh, a really, it's, it's a platform, uh, really, really suited for these kind of conversations. Like it's a presence that you learn to live with.

00:06:25 Niki J Borger : Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you phrased that very, very nicely, that the best approach is not to be trying to change it or alter it or push it away or pretend like it's not there. It's really about becoming present with it and allowing it to be there. I believe that grief is the proof of love. I believe that to the amount that you loved a person, you will experience grief afterwards and all the emotions that came with that. And as societies, we don't talk about this enough because, you know, people don't want to go to these dark places if they haven't experienced them. A lot of people can't relate. Um, and a lot of people still live in a way where they repress their emotions anyways. Right. Um, say they don't have the capacity or the toolkits yet to deal with their emotions in a healthy way. So whenever they encounter someone else who's going through that, they will withdraw from that situation rather than get involved in emotional, authentic work that they themselves don't know how to deal with. So there's just not enough space provided to have these conversations and to be met wherever you're at in this moment.

00:07:51 Speaker 3: Mhm.

00:07:52 Sana: And, uh, and it's, it's, I mean, it's absolutely fine. Uh, in whichever way you can answer that, but, um, oh, you move to the US. and, and, the seven, uh, seven and a half years. Um, okay. I don't know, how should I, how can I find this? But you lost all, your parents, your grandparents, um, and you decided you took a choice and you decided to spend that time, um, you trying to understand those experiences, how you are feeling, how you are probably your body is responding to that grief, to the loss, uh, really tragic loss. And, and, and, I want to bring in one question which could be, this is, this is completely out of the script, but the way, uh, we are seeing, in the mainstream, the, the content and the kind of, creations happening, I believe we kind of have already lived in that era where people actually admire in the, in the mainstream, those raw, real emotions. It was not about the positive or the negative. But it was more about the harsh reality of life. It was not about escapism. Now I believe we are more leaning towards something which can help us escape. And yeah, to to a lot, to a huge extent. This is, uh, understandable. Logical. But I believe, we need a lot of, uh, we need a lot of, uh, awareness and improvement in the way we, uh, portray these very sensitive emotions, these experiences, you know, especially in the mainstream conversations creations, you know, whether it's the movies or, um, uh, the media or anywhere. But what, what do you think? How do you look at it?

00:09:59 Niki J Borger : I couldn't agree more. I am, I'm right there with you. I think, um, while there is a lot of opportunity to be very real online and to be met in that realness online and on social media. Um, I think grief is a topic where that's still hard for people because again, like people's like fear it so much. They fear the heartbreak and the emotions that come with it so much that when you experience grief or loss, many people around you will not be able to meet you in the space that you're in, let alone you know that you can build the trust to have these conversations with random strangers online and feel seen and met and held and whatever you're going through. So it's not an easy place to be in. And that's why podcasts like this are so important, because you are providing this space for people to feel and to be seen and to be understood, and even just to have the experience of like, wow, there's someone else who was going through this, and I'm not the only one. And you know, you may feel so alone in your grieving process, but platforms like yours provide proof that you're not.

00:11:29 Speaker 5: Thank you.

00:11:32 Sana: I mean, I very, very direct question how how did you make that choice? I mean, I don't know what would I have done in your place?

00:11:46 Niki J Borger : Uh, you mean my choice? Yeah. To take up.

00:11:51 Sana: Writing. Yes.

00:11:53 Niki J Borger : Yeah. Well, um, I, uh, my experience was very particular, and I'm gonna go a little bit more into detail here because I think it will be helpful. I moved to the US in late twenty eighteen and then my mom died in a car crash in August of twenty nineteen. And, um, at that point, my stepdad had just survived an emergency surgery for pancreatic cancer. So things were already very, very heightened. And I obviously, I went to Germany, I took care of things there and helped with everything. But right after that, the pandemic hit and I was stuck in the US because my stepdad was going through chemo. And if you remember like in the beginning of the pandemic, we just didn't know what this thing was, right? We didn't know if it was safe to travel, uh, where you could go. There were no flights anymore. And, you know, boarding a plane to fly to a cancer patient in, you know, actual chemo would have been absolutely irresponsible. So I ended up staying in the US throughout the pandemic, and I didn't really have a choice but to sit with my feelings and deal with them because there was nothing else to do. There were no film projects happening. There was no acting happening. I was writing in that period because that was the only thing I could do creatively, and I needed an output. Um, and so because of these factors, it was, you know, life gave me my ideal path forward. I actually did write a script about that whole experience with my mom and with my stepdad and how complicated that was. Um, during the pandemic, I never published it or did anything with it, but I wrote it, which in itself was a very healing experience. So I do think that life will guide you towards what you need. And if you don't listen, it will do so in a little bit of a more forceful way. For me, it's usually I get sick or something. So then I'm, you know, forced to stay at home and forced to deal with what I have going on. Hopefully that's not the case for you or for anybody else. But I think life will provide the space and the opportunities you need, just like your listeners may be guided to listen to this particular podcast episode, right? And suddenly feel the resonance.

00:14:40 Speaker 5: Mhm.

00:14:43 Sana: Yeah. I it's, it's, that's why I don't have the right words to quantify this. But, um, I, all I can say is yes. Um, writing and, maybe different, different forms of expressing, you know, that's why sometimes some pieces of creation, they are so. Special or intimate or very dear to us that, you know, we kind of project ourselves onto those creations and the people who can actually connect with that. And it's not about, you know, how popular or how, um, you know, technically brilliant they are, but they are brilliant in their own ways. And that's why I believe, you know, it's about the subjectivity of creation. And, uh, um, it's not just only about the numbers or the virality or the popularity. I think, you know, these are the ways where they can really help us, uh, to understand what exactly we are feeling. Because most of the times, the way we have been taught, you know, our body has already adapted itself because probably our nervous system or our body would identify that grief to be a bit more threatening. We may not not the grief, but, um, something which is outside that circle of experience, of that feeling. It may look to us as threatening. So we would kind of, uh, keep ourselves caged or completely secluded. And, uh, that's why I believe that, uh, these media, these media, they are very, very, uh, necessary for us to be sustained and, you know, keep them alive in today's age as well.

00:16:43 Niki J Borger : I totally agree. I think a lot of it comes down to authenticity. And that starts with you being honest with yourself. I think a big misconception here about grief is that all you have to feel is negativity about it, and that is just not the case. It's there's no relationship on this planet. No adult relationship on this planet is black and white. There's not a single person you will ever encounter for whom you feel absolutely nothing but unconditional love, because that is just not how human life is, right? So whenever you lose someone, no matter how dearly you hold them, no matter how much you love them, there will be tiny other bits of emotion mixed into this. I'm gonna be specific about my relationship because, you know, I can, um, with my mom. My mom was my number one person on the planet. She was amazing. She was a single mom for so many years. She, you know, got us through everything. She was so strong. And I, I loved her so much. But there were also a lot of expectations Um that she had towards us. And there was a lot of generational trauma when it comes to being a woman that she carried both of these things. I copied and inherited as children do. So even though I was really, I was devastated for years after she passed away. Despite that, there were pieces where I felt a little bit of relief or a little bit of ease or a little bit of breathing space because I felt like, oh, but now I don't have to carry this anymore. Right. Or I don't have to live up to that anymore. And that is not easy to be okay with for yourself because you feel like, oh my gosh, I'm a horrible person for even thinking that, let alone feeling it or expressing it. Right? Yeah. So I think it's so important to Important. You don't to not have any judgement towards what you yourself are going through. I can promise you that the person who left will not have any judgement, because the souls don't hold judgement in that way. They don't. It's just the humans that do that, right? The souls don't. The eternal soul will never judge you for how you're feeling afterwards. And so there's like, the more grace and kindness and openness you can give yourself to accept wherever you are and what you're feeling. The more honest and authentic you can be about it, and the more resonance you will create with others. Because I promise you, other people are going through the same thing or very similar thing, especially when it comes to to the complexity of emotions. So I wrote the place that I just published. I wrote them because in a play, you always have a conversation more than an emotional setting. And because it's a conversation, people can project their own emotional experience onto it. So it becomes their experience, not mine. And it opens up that space to be honest and to say the things that they have going on in a way that is safe and, you know, not limiting because it's art. It's not your real life. It's art. So you have a safe container to process all these things that have been going on. And that is why I care about those plays so much, because I think they provide that.

00:20:54 Speaker 5: And I think you honestly.

00:20:55 Sana: That is such a powerful thing that you have said, especially, um, about souls not having the judgment because I personally can so much, so much connect with that. And this is not about the black and white part, you know, it's there are a lot of grays in there, a lot of layers. It's, it's very nuanced. And, um, uh, we kind of, you know, try to categorize, you know, whether this is good or bad. Um, and I, I think it's mostly upon how we are conditioned and how we are, uh, how we see or how we are, you know, taught to perceive what is actually good or bad or black or white. Uh, but it's very layered. And for me, it would have been impossible to articulate that so beautifully. So I really, really found it very powerful in what he said.

00:21:52 Niki J Borger : Thank you. I'm glad it resonated with you.

00:21:56 Sana: And, uh, Nikki, um, before we wrap up, um, if, if our listeners, you know, they would like to find you, your place, your films, your book, the work that you're putting into the world, where would you love them to go from here?

00:22:16 Niki J Borger : Thank you for asking that. Um, so my place, uh, they're called in between eight gender neutral, one act place Between Life and Death by Nikki J. Borger you will find them anywhere. You can get them in any major retailer or Amazon whatever around the world really. Um, if you want to stay in touch, I am, I'm mostly active on Instagram under my name at Nikki J. Borger, but I also host a personal development community, which is called Light Warrior Dojo with underscores in between. Um, that's where I share inspirational content and do my best to, you know, help people like you, uh, and hope I'm guessing your listeners through the hard times of life.

00:23:12 Speaker 5: Beautiful.

00:23:13 Sana: And listeners and make that easier for you. So all the details, what Nikki has shared, everything will be there in the show notes. So just find them attached along with this episode. And, uh, uh, Nikki, I couldn't thank you enough because honestly, um, I'm really grateful you came in and, uh, you held it with us, and you, um, very candidly, and, uh, with its tenderness, with its layers, you shared your experiences and the work that you're doing as well. So thank you so much.

00:23:51 Niki J Borger : Thank you so much for having me. And thank you so much for providing this beautiful space and being open to these conversations and listeners.

00:24:02 Sana: I thank all of you for being present here. Um, I am feeling a little bit guilty because I believe, uh, thirty minutes is not justified for this really, really profound and thoughtful conversation. But, um, I really appreciate, I wish we could have gone on and on, but, uh, to all of you listeners, wherever you are today or tonight, um, whenever you're listening, whatever grief you are carrying, named or unnamed, you don't have to do anything with it right now. Just let yourself be there. That is already enough. So this was the mindful living. I am Sarah, and I will meet you here again. In the slow, in the soft, the spacious, gentle care of yourself. Thank you.