TWO Jutta Tobias Mortlock

[00:00:00] PART2[00:00:00] End of Part one

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Ross: hi there and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode two of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh. Pup is, it's so great to be back behind the mic sharing fabulous conversations.

[00:00:11] Jutta: The first antidote to that is to develop high quality relationships so that the, urge to, dehumanize the other becomes a bit more difficult. We all know what it's like to have good old friends that we know really well who we give the benefit of the doubt in good functioning families. We give family members the benefit of the doubt.

[00:00:32] Jutta: Why do we do this? Because we know them. We know that they are complex and they are more multifaceted. And when they once trip up, it's not because they're bad people, but it's because the situation has made them trip up. That's what giving somebody the benefit of the doubt is all about. And that is the building block In this episode, I continue my chat with Dr. Uta Tobias Mortlock, a social psychologist from City University of London, who is also the co-director of the Center for Excellence and Mindfulness Research. I've called this episode Collective Mindfulness. Together we explore the concept of collective or team mindfulness, and UTA shares how she has approached the practical development of the skill in her work with Naval Cadets.

[00:01:14] Ross: We also consider how team mindfulness contributes to psychological safety and psychological safety in virtual teams was a topic we explored in season four in an interview with one of U Utah's research students, Alexandra Lechner. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes.

[00:01:30] Ross: U goes on to introduce us to the idea of being Heedful from the work of Karl Wieck, which really resonated with me and we finished the episode with her Song Choice

[00:01:42] Ross: People. Super is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's [00:02:00] practical, accessible, and fun to help you Glo to work a bit more.

[00:02:04] Ross: Let's just go over to the news desk. Reviews are in for part one of my chat with UTA on Instagram, Jillian sent me a message which said, Great episode again, Ross. This really fits with my own hopes for active strategies to grow and be available to the many organizations and people groups that there are. This is a challenging time to many and finding ways to demystify, but at the same time actively spread the word. It makes this episode so relevant.

[00:02:30] Ross: And on Facebook, Chris, our friend, from 365 Days of Compassion. , hugely interesting episode, Ross. I wasn't initially sure where Utu was leading to with her view on collective mindfulness, but as the episode ended, that became clearer and left me intrigued for the next episode to hear more, almost a cliff hangout of an ending.

[00:02:50] Ross: The world is always a better place when a people soup season is around to listen to, gosh. Thank you so much to Jillian and Chris and everyone who listened, shared, reviewed, and commented. I'm so pleased you found it interesting and useful. That's exactly what I was hoping for. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with uta.

[00:03:17] Jutta: So the big thing that we need to focus on is why are we all so interested in mindfulness, we're interested in because, you know, because stress is such a big topic for everybody, both individually, as well as for team leaders, as well as for leaders in organizations, as well as for teachers or managers in the NHS or political leaders.

[00:03:40] Jutta: So stress is what we are all trying to manage. And let me just bring a bit of management science, into this change is not something that happens, by each individual of us learning an individual skill. Change in society happens when there's movements, social movements.

[00:03:59] Jutta: [00:04:00] Thank God. We are openly talking about racism and discrimination, and we've been doing this for 50 years, but we are doing this because we are, we've turned the debate on about just as our injustice, prejudice, and discrimination against people of different colors of skin. The, the injustice that people get judged differently based on the shade of their skin.

[00:04:21] Jutta: we've turned this into a social movement and we can't change this through individual action. we have to change bad things, including stress in our society, through collective action as much, and perhaps more than through individual action, doesn't this make sense to you that if I equip you with another individual skill, I turn you even more into a Don Quixote. You have another wooden sword to fight the windmills.

[00:04:47] Ross: it's tremendous. The clarity that you bring to this compelling message about how can we address this for groups? Cause it makes sense. We, we evolved in groups. We didn't evolve as individuals. We evolved by turning towards each other. We got in terms of compassion focused therapy.

[00:05:05] Ross: We had soothing affiliation from, from each other and we're perhaps missing that

[00:05:11] Ross: more in today's society. And that's why these movements really matter

[00:05:17] Jutta: And let's just be concrete. Right? So you, you and I met when I was very fortunate to have you come and work with me at Dartmouth at the, Britannia Royal, nav college for the Royal Navy, a few years back where we trial. What can mindfulness training look and sound like if we are moving on from training individuals in mindfulness meditation skills.

[00:05:38] Jutta: And this goes back to what I saw when I worked as a business consultant. The problem when work becomes stressful is that people start to fragment when the going gets tough and people start to, turn work conflicts or like conflicts of interest, whenever work gets stressful. It's because there's a conflict of interest.

[00:05:59] Jutta: You know, I [00:06:00] have to work extra hard and there's a conflict of interest between me getting the work done. And me actually only having an eight hour day and then I actually should go home. you know, we don't have enough resources to do, to do the tasks. That's a conflict of interest, but when work gets stressful, people let it out on each other.

[00:06:17] Jutta: Cuz that is what happens when we don't have the most solid of relationships. So task problems become personal problems and people start to fragment. And that's what the scientific term is for what happens when people in, in organizations mindlessly let work stress become personal stress. And what is the antidote to that?

[00:06:40] Approach at Dartmouth

[00:06:40] Jutta: And at Dartmouth, What we did was we used, literally just two steps of training, young officer cadets, to become capable of managing stress collectively firstly by rapidly developing more high quality relationship than the relationship quality that they had. And that we did that very, very strategically because we know that when stress happens in workplaces or in schools or in any other social context, right.

[00:07:12] Jutta: I talk about work, but. This is not just relevant for organizations. This is relevant for all contexts where people do stuff together. Schools are a really big context. when school kids fragment and I have teenagers at home, I know what it's like when, people stress at an interpersonal basis, it's because they start to judge each other and they start to undermine each other.

[00:07:37] Developing High Quality Relationships / Benefit of the doubt

[00:07:37] Jutta: The first antidote to that is to develop high quality relationships so that the, urge to, dehumanize the other becomes a bit more difficult. We all know what it's like to have good old friends that we know really well who we give the benefit of the doubt in good functioning families. We give family members the benefit of the doubt.

[00:07:58] Jutta: Why do we do this? Because we know [00:08:00] them. We know that they are complex and they are more multifaceted. And when they once trip up, it's not because they're bad people, but it's because the situation has made them trip up. That's what giving somebody the benefit of the doubt is all about. And that is the building block of a high quality relationship in workplaces nowadays, especially in the virtual era.

[00:08:20] Jutta: That's why Alex Lechner and I have talked about psychological safety and virtual groups. it is so important to build psychological safety, which is a big predictor of performance, but also of high quality relationships. And so high quality relationships create a bit of a buffer when you first get hit by work stress.

[00:08:38] Jutta: And so concretely for anybody who listens, who wants to bring mindfulness into a social group. It is about how do you develop a good high quality relationship. You get to know people as human beings, not just as task completers, and especially in the virtual era task completion. we're rushing to being transactional, to treating people like, you know, we have a meeting here, 30 minutes, we have our job to do the tendency to dehumanize and aversion? Harm is even bigger.

[00:09:07] Jutta: But the reason why I talk about the first act of creating a mindful team is to create high and to rapidly create high quality relationships by getting people to talk about what's important to them values. Talk about fears, talk about hopes and aspirations. That's how that's, what gets you to get to know somebody as a breathing, functioning, human being.

[00:09:27] FOUNDATION FOR PEOPLE TO BECOME MORE CAREFUL IN HOW THEY TALK WITH EACH OTHER

[00:09:27] Jutta: And that's because. You want to create a buffer for when work gets stressful and when people are tempted to fragment and to start to undermine each other, and then you want to create a foundation for people to become more careful in how they talk with each other, how they work with each other. And this is this idea, and this is a, this is a 30 year old idea of collective mindfulness.

[00:09:50] What is collective mindfuless?

[00:09:50] Jutta: So collective mindfulness in organizations is all about people interrelating in a way that this dude, Karl Weick social [00:10:00] psychologist at the University of Michigan in the nineties realized he said, when organizations function in the face of stress, it's because the people that work in these organizations are heedful and the word heedful is kind of an old fashioned word, but it basically means they are that they're interconnected in a way.

[00:10:18] Jutta: And heedful basically means they are. relating to each other in a way that builds collective capacity to manage stress collectively. So they're careful, they're anticipating problems. It's like a mother that is holding a baby. She's careful she's watching out for what could go wrong. She's heedful.

[00:10:38] Jutta: And so if I, and you learn to be heedful about each other, we have this natural effect of, I don't have to worry so much about handling myself when things get stressful, I'm becoming responsible to look out for you. And because we're social animals, you, because you see a benefit of you learn something, or you benefit from me looking out for you, you naturally are reciprocating and you look out for me.

[00:11:04] Jutta: And so the, the second part of what does mindfulness look like when we move it into like a social space is we, we help people. Share what they do and what they need when things get stressful. How can we not just complete the tasks that we have to complete when they're difficult and when they're stressful, but how can we relate to, we relate to each other when things get stressful.

[00:11:28] Jutta: And that means we talk about, how do we want to support each other when things get difficult and how do we want to be around each other? And those conversations that, that language, bringing some, making something visible that normally is an invisible glue or an invisible distractor of relationships during stressful tasks, that then creates the foundation for people to actually apply their cognitive skills, to difficult intellectual things, rather than just stressing out and becoming less effective[00:12:00] and less smart people.

[00:12:01] Ross: If I had. A cheap microphone. I would drop it now, but I don't have a cheap microphone. I have an expensive one, so I'm not, I'm not gonna drop it, but I love what you're saying because they think hundreds of times in a day in a team we'll face a tension between acting for the good of ourselves and acting for the team for which we belong in, though.

[00:12:23] Ross: What way can I best show up in this next moment? Cuz I might be tempted to go sort of bitch about a colleague or go, oh, there we go again. Uh, not constructive behavior, not useful instead of breaking fragmenting and forming those different tribes and conflicts. But if I can think what can I do for in the service of the whole team and pausing to think, what can I do next?

[00:12:47] Ross: Is, is that not what we're looking to? Cultivate that sort of pause and. using our mindfulness as a, as a collective to think. How could I show up now for the, for the good of this team or for in the service of this team? Is that, is that what we're

[00:13:01] Jutta: So let's come back to the definition of what mindfulness is, right? it is based on meditation. We all accept that, but meditation is not necessarily just checking into the sensations in my body, but it is about reflection and it is about pausing and noticing what is real. So if we are saying let's practice mindfulness together, that actually means let let's meditate, which in a, in a more simple way in English means let's reflect.

[00:13:32] Jutta: on what is going on. and this is what mind organizations do. So practicing mindfulness together in an organization to manage stress more effectively, cuz that's the goal of mindfulness for organizations at individual levels, as well as collective levels is to reflect what is going on to notice what the choices are that we have before making one of them and then choose the most strategic choice or the one that's that is best for us in the long run.

[00:13:59] Jutta: How do we [00:14:00] do this? We do not sit in silence for 20 minutes because we actually know, and this is where science and social science is useful. In the last five years, we have found more and more scientific studies. Bringing out that sitting in silent contemplation is not necessarily getting me to find an insight.

[00:14:21] Jutta: That's helpful. If I don't meditate by learning a new perspective by sitting in silence for hours, days, weeks, months, or years, if there's garbage in garbage comes out. And so that the act of silent meditation alone does not lead necessarily lead to new insights, but you and me meditating together means nothing more than me sharing my perspective of what's going on.

[00:14:50] Jutta: Me reflecting to you. What is actually real for me, I am feeling really stressed. I'm really confused. I'm actually, I don't know what my options are. And language is so helpful for us to become clear about what's going on. So making visible the invisible choices that I have allows me to practice reflecting about them in a social context with you.

[00:15:14] Jutta: But what we are finding in the, in the training programs that I've trialed so far is, is actually, if you have high quality teams, remember that was the first task of bringing mindfulness into teams. And if you have psychologically safe teams, psychological safety is not for people to feel nice, to feel comfortable, but psychological safety training is designed for people to become critical, to speak up, speak truth, to power and say, boy, I actually notice that the way you are running this podcast could be optimized.

[00:15:46] Jutta: I actually don't think Ross, but that's, that's an example. So psychological safety is only useful if it means I have a conversation where I see a conflict here where I see a perspective that you might not see, and [00:16:00] the, the mindfulness training that, I'm trialing and that I'm developing further is all about having conversations where.

[00:16:07] Jutta: I am seeing something about the way you do things, cuz I see you much more clearly than I see myself and I might offer a different perspective on it and you reciprocate and you then say to me, yep. I also think there's something that you might not see here Jutta. And this is why, the act of helping somebody else see something and receiving information about yourself, that you, as the actor, don't see yourself, but people who know you well know quite often more about your state and your way of being and your choices.

[00:16:40] Jutta: And you can see it, especially when you're stressful environment. And so this idea of reflecting what is going on for you yourself, but also reflecting what you see about what might be going on for somebody else. And the choices that somebody else has that then creates this. Perspective taking and this in, in psychotherapy, this is often called the hall, hall of mirrors where I'm mirroring back to you.

[00:17:03] Jutta: What I see and you are mirroring back to me what you see. And so it creates a whole of mirror and that then creates a whole new set of choices and perspectives that are really useful for us to then choose the choice, make the choice that is most productive. So mindfulness in teams or meditating in teams is again, I'm repeating myself.

[00:17:26] Jutta: It's not sitting in silence and each individual silo of us hoping and wishing that we learn a new insight by being silent and by focusing on the sensation in our bodies. But mindfulness meditation in teams is about me saying, Hey, I see something here and I'm not sure if it's right, but can I have a go at articulating it? And that is a psychologically safe conversation, not for the sake of psychological safety, psychological safety Schmidty, but for the sake of having a truth to power conversation, speaking up [00:18:00] about something that might be real and then exploring it together to you.

[00:18:04] Ross: because I think psychological safety is really it's the latest trend

[00:18:10] Ross: in organizations. people are like, whoa, yeah, let's build this. And they think sometimes just by doing a course on it, that that, that builds it. But it's about the behavior change, the habit change. And this is where it's a great platform to build on with team based mindfulness.

[00:18:25] Ross: And next generation mindfulness is to say, okay, now's the kind of difficult

[00:18:30] Ross: bit, rather than sitting in isolation. How can you turn towards that person and just say, Hey, there's something popping up for me. And can I check it out with you in that curious way? That's that's also kind, That is fundamental to the approach for me. And I think it's why it's so interesting that you've worked with, the armed forces in this, because I imagine, and my, my experience of doing a little bit alongside you is that they are always looking out for each other.

[00:19:00] Jutta: They are. And when they're not, that's when performance goes down, that's when the quality of decision making goes down. And that's when stress goes through the roof, when people don't have each other's back. And when people don't, don't see challenges as a challenge that we are facing together. And none of us is to be left behind.

[00:19:19] Metacognitive practice

[00:19:19] Jutta: We're all facing it as one unified unit. And there's. Brilliant mindfulness scholar, Ravi Kudesia, based outta the us he says mindfulness in organizations is a metacognitive practice. So mindfulness in organizations, is not, not just here to relax us and the, the dichotomy between, you know, the, the school of mindfulness that says mindfulness is, you know, meditation and silence and mindfulness in, uh, some other schools of mindfulness said, mindfulness is about noticing new aspects of a situation, processing information in different ways.

[00:19:56] Jutta: That's a false dichotomy. What we need to do is train [00:20:00] people, practice people to become metacognitive and meta cognition basically means meta is, is this idea of turning. on onto itself. So, so meta cognition is thinking about cognition, thinking about thinking. And so this is all about reflecting and seeing different perspectives of what is real.

[00:20:20] Jutta: And that is really useful in organizations and most relevantly to our conversations that we are having right now, Ravi Kudesia is arguing in this big paper where he said mindful as an organization's needs to be meta cognitive practice, that this act of reciprocating and of sharing our different perspectives of what is real of opening up and talking about what our options are in organizations that is not just good for, at an interpersonal level, that doesn't just teach you something, teach me something, but it also increases my internal capacity for reflection.

[00:20:57] Jutta: So it's like a, it's almost an amplification effect of. The more you and I share what our options are, the more you and I share, what our doubts are, the more you and I share about what our ideas are about what we're talking about, the higher, the quality of our relationship, the higher, the quality of our conversation, right?

[00:21:20] Jutta: The more we build psychological safety and, and a team that can go through hell together and, and come out of it. But also the higher, my, own internal meta cognitive practice increases. And this is why, again, I'm a broken record. I say, don't practice mindfulness by yourself, cuz it's not a guarantee that you learn something new unless you have input from the outside.

[00:21:44] Jutta: And of course, in Eastern contemplative traditions or with good mindfulness trainers, You get good input from the outside that pulls you up on the quality of your reflection, right? And that says, now think about how [00:22:00] you could relate to the thought in different ways. But if you just continue to listen to the same five head spaced, five minutes of mindfulness meditation, you may not get a new insight that improves the quality of your reflection.

[00:22:15] Jutta: And this is why now we have more and more studies that come out say that mindfulness meditation, especially in workplaces, doesn't tend to have the effect that it claims to have, especially in terms of creativity, when getting to actually make better choices or more pro-social or more strategic choices, because practicing meditation by yourself as a silo is a closed system. Unless you're a really smart person who learns through time, but that's a monastic model, the monastic model of mindfulness meditation, the medieval model, presupposes that you have hours and hours of time to get so bored with your thoughts that are better. Quality thought comes up over time. We don't have the time for that.

[00:23:00] Jutta: That's why I rely on you to help me improve my thinking loss.

[00:23:04] Ross: Sure. Wow. And we're gonna come back to the, the military research in, in just a moment. I'd like to dive in much more and talk more about this next

[00:23:14] Ross: generation. But there's a question I went to ask before that. Well, as a couple, in the introduction I mentioned mindfulness based therapies and third wave cognitive behavioral therapies, including act.

[00:23:26] Ross: Could I just delve into when you discovered ACT Jutta.

[00:23:31] Jutta: Yes, that is, that's a wonderful story. So, as I was reading widely on the mindfulness literature, I became a fan of Jon Kabbat Zin and mindfulness space, stress reduction, and Mark Williams, uh, you know, frantic world and mindfulness space, cognitive therapy. But I didn't stop there because I didn't have a story of personal healing.

[00:23:53] Jutta: And I think many people, many people's lives who did MBSR and B, C T their lives changed. Ruby wax says [00:24:00] famously that, mindfulness helped her Andy Puddicombe. the founder of Headspace said it mindfulness saved his life. And so I think that's wonderful. And this is a yes, and this is not a yes, but. and I read more widely on which scientific approaches use mindfulness. And then I, I stumbled upon act because act of course is half of mindfulness practice and half of value space living. and I started to read up on Steven Hayes's work. And the joke about this is that I read, Of course, I've got it here.

[00:24:32] Jutta: I, I read the, the famous book by our very own Paul Flaman and Frank Bond, the mindful and effective employee published in 2013. unbeknownst to me, Paul Flaman was going to be my, good friend and colleague and the reason why I moved to city university. So I became a big fan of Paul Flaman and Frank Bon's research on act.

[00:24:55] Jutta: Which is mindfulness plus value based living, being applied to workplaces, which is where you sell it to fit in because you've become a leading figure with Paul Flaman in developing the act for workplaces curriculum further. And I, I started teaching an introduction to act at city university for dear former colleague of mine, uh, Ruth Sealy while she was at city university.

[00:25:18] Jutta: and I sheepishly emailed Paul Flaman, who I had never met by that time and said, by the way, I'm teaching what you've published. and, um, this is what I'm teaching. I hope you agree with me teaching your work at your institution without ever having met you. And you know how Paul is, he was most Gallant and we sell to develop a friendship. A partnership that I'm most grateful for. So, and eventually that's, that was one of the reasons why I moved to city university because the ACT scholarship at city university is just outstanding. And Paul Flaman is the leading light of that

[00:25:52] Jutta: scholarship. Yeah.

[00:25:54] Ross: thank you. And yeah, I'm, I'm delighted to continue my work with Paul. We've got, some training coming up [00:26:00] that the boys are going back on the road. So,

[00:26:02] Ross: um, looking forward to that and also talking out the evolution of the, the protocol. And it's so exciting that, that you're both now at city and.

[00:26:12] Ross: With Trudy developing this center for excellence. And I'm gonna come onto that in, in our next part.

[00:26:17] Song Choice

[00:26:17] Ross: But just to finish off this little segment, it's something I ask all my guests, you to is to think of a song that would announce your arrival in a virtual room and, or a real room, not forever, but for the next couple of months, what, what song would you select to announce your arrival?

[00:26:37] Ross: Any, any thoughts on

[00:26:38] Jutta: Oh, um, right. if you frame it like this, that it has to be a swing dance music song. It has to be a song that makes you, makes you want to Bob. So I'm a huge fan of the Lindy hope dancing, which is all based on swing dance music. And so I'm a big fan of Ella Fitzgerald, anytime Earl grant, all of the, the big swing dances.

[00:27:02] Jutta: And so I think do you know anything about Lindi hop dancing?

[00:27:05] Ross: Not a great deal.

[00:27:06] Ross: No,

[00:27:06] Jutta: the Lindi hop was created around the 1920s in the us where, Servants in, big manner houses, they, all the servants had dark skin and were confined to the, the lowly quarters, but they found excitement, happiness in the swing dance movement of the time.

[00:27:24] Jutta: And the swing dance movement is, is, is based on an improvisation. was influenced by jazz and around 1920, uh, Lindberg hopped across the Atlantic and these incredibly talented dancers created the Lindy hop because if Lindberg could hop across the Atlantic, a servant working in a big manor house by. Pale skinned, owners who owned all the wealth and who made all the decisions and who gave very little choices to the people who worked for them. But if in the dance they could hop across the difficulties and they could [00:28:00] overcome the confinements or the, constraints of their existence. And so the Lin hub movement is a movement of improvisation, creativity change.

[00:28:08] Jutta: it's based on roles. You always dance with somebody else, but you always work to surprise and impress and, improvise with the other person. And so there's one dance called. It's what you do. It's the way that you do it. You know, you know, the song it's all Oliver young who every Lindi hop dancer knows how to dance those movements.

[00:28:26] Jutta: So you, you walk together and you start to say, it's a, what you do, It's the way that you do So what do you

[00:28:33] Ross: you

[00:28:34] Jutta: the way

[00:28:34] Jutta: that.

[00:28:34] Ross: It's the way that you do

[00:28:36] Jutta: And, and you do something called the shim sham to it. And so you start moving your body and you cannot not start to Bob your your whole body. And so I think that's how I would love to be announced.

[00:28:48] Ross: Oh my gosh. I think we might have that as your theme tune until you decide to change it. Not just for the

[00:28:54] Ross: next few weeks. I

[00:28:56] Jutta: Uh,

[00:28:56] Ross: would serve you

[00:28:57] Jutta: yeah. Yeah. But Lindy helped swing Down's music gets you to, to not sit still

[00:29:03] Jutta: to

[00:29:03] Jutta: move ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it is a big metaphor as well, right. For life.

[00:29:08] Ross: And do you know what our good friend Paul actually played it in a lecture once

[00:29:15] Jutta: I didn't know that.

[00:29:16] Ross: he was talking about how we present ourselves, maybe to organizations or make an

[00:29:22] Ross: impact. And it still sticks with me today, if I'm going on to do a big thing or a big training, and it's the first time maybe I, I always take sort of comfort in that, that the way I do it and the style I bring to it and the energy I bring to it can be also transformative as well as the content.

[00:29:41] Ross: And

[00:29:41] Ross: it, it really just sticks in my mind and I'm thinking, well, actually, if I'm really focusing on getting the content, right, I'm kind of draining my own energy. Whereas if I can think about bringing the energy and that me-ness to it, I think that really helps with the, the learning of the content and the curiosity about the content

[00:29:59] Jutta: it also helps us [00:30:00] detach a little bit from being so hung up on. Getting the content. Right. So this song actually also reminds us that. People don't even remember what we say and people don't remember what we do because Maya Angelou says, people always remember how you make them feel.

[00:30:19] Jutta: And that's really helpful. I find, and that's really hopeful that she said, people get a sense of how you make them feel and that's powerful. And we have that power and maybe we should focus more on that then on getting the PowerPoints. Right. See what I did there with power and the PowerPoints, the PowerPoints are not the real thing.

[00:30:40] Jutta: It's the way that we do it. And it's the way that we make people feel that matters really,

[00:30:45] Ross: Amen to that

[00:30:47] Ross: That's it, part two in the bag. Tune in next time for the third part of my chat with uta, where you'll hear more about her research next generation, mindfulness and leadership. I love talking to UTA without fail. She always elevates my thinking. If you like this episode or the podcast, please could you do three things.

[00:31:13] Ross: Firstly, share it with one other person. Second, subscribe and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you. A third, share the heck out of it on the social media. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be.

[00:31:28] Ross: I love to hear from you. Yes. You listening. Just now you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup. And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. Thanks to Andy Glen for his spoon Magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals, most of all. Dear listener, thanks to you for listening. Look after yourselves pea supers, and bye for now.

[00:31:54] Jutta: that remind me of this other incredibly useful [00:32:00] saying that, um, hold on, hold on, hold on caller. Stand by collar, um, hold on. Where are you? You you're back here.

[00:32:09] Jutta: I tried to Google this thing here. No, I can't see you anymore. Ross. Hold on a sec, please, sweetheart. I'm I'm somewhere. I'm here. We're here. We're here. Yeah. Yeah. I've got you back. Yeah. Right.