Hello, and welcome to The Talent Trade.

This is Stephanie Maas with ThinkingAhead Executive Search.

Super excited to be here today with one of our rock stars from

the nonprofit team. Heather Campbell. Heather, welcome.

Thank you.

Go ahead and tell us a little bit about you,

and anything you think our listeners would want to know.

My name is Heather Campbell, I live in

Minneapolis, Minnesota, born and raised Minnesotan. I've been

with thinking ahead for a little over five years now, sort of in

April of 2019. I'm on the nonprofit team. And I focus on

working with nonprofits that really work with human rights,

equity and equality, as well as the social impact spaces.

Well welcome. We're super excited to have you

here. And another thing that I'm super excited about is kind of

your topic I remember many years ago, learning from kind of one

of thinking ahead gurus and him saying at one point that at the

end of the day, if a search is meant to come together, it will

with or without us. And he shared that to kind of take the

pressure off, especially because when he shared it with me, quite

frankly, I was rather new to the practice. But at the same time,

he also said that, hey, when you have opportunity to earn your

keep in a search, kind of take it serious and make sure that

you really are if you're going to be a part of it, make sure

you really are earning your keep as a facilitator of that

process. And that's something I think that we're going to talk a

lot about today with you.

And I love that I think that prepping and

debriefing the candidates and the clients during this part of

the process, they probably do great without us. But at the

same time, it's that like additional sort of icing on the

cake to make sure stuff goes really well. I'm also a big

process driven person. So if this is something that could

manage in that process, I love it.

And you know, it's funny too, because through

the years, the folks that we represent both on the client

side and the candidate side, they're not professional

interviewers. So I think this is an area where in terms of

prepping and debriefing them, we have a huge opportunity to make

a difference. Because oftentimes people are incredible what they

do, but they don't know how to advocate for themselves. They

don't, you know, hey, it's been five years since I interviewed

last, or I'm usually when doing the interviewing. So I think

this is a super valuable topic. So jump right in, walk us

through your philosophy a little bit. And then just walk us

through how you do what you do.

And so from a philosophy standpoint, prepping

and debriefing is is just part of our process in general,

right. So it's not necessarily this big new thing or something

that I'm sure a lot of search firms do. But I think that we do

it really, really well. And I enjoy it, it's actually my

favorite part of my job. Because I get to build stronger

relationships with both, you know, the client, the hiring

manager, maybe some folks that haven't met along the way in the

process, as well as then those candidates that obviously

there's only one person that typically gets the job, you get

to still build relationships with four or five, six other

people that you never know, throughout your career, many may

bump into again. So I was going to kind of go over, you know,

break it down, what do I do with the clients and then break it

down? And you know, probably a little bit longer. What do I do

with the candidates? As far as the prep goes?

Can we just stop there for a second, because I

want to just spend a minute on the value that you think this

brings from a holistic perspective, this was something

I was taught very early on in my search career thinking ahead was

to prep the clients. And yet, as I've been out, you know,

networking with other recruiters attending recruiter events. This

is a topic that I'm constantly surprised at how many folks

don't do this. So I'd love to hear from your perspective, kind

of why your dogged about making this a part of your process.

It's a super important piece of the process.

So that again, I can kind of know what's going on and manage

how they're going to work. But again, to your point,

oftentimes, they're great at what they do, but they are not

professional interview errs. And so being able to make sure that

they know what questions they're going to ask, and how to sort of

handle themselves in that interview. Because, frankly,

just as much as they are interviewing the candidates, you

know, those candidates are interviewing them as well to

make sure that this is a good fit. So being able to just talk

through logistics, but also how to be in the interview and how

to sort of woo the candidates to the opportunity as well. Make

sure that they have a good experience. And then I think

from an equity perspective, it's really important that every

candidate is having a similar experience and being able to

have them present themselves in a way that you know, the clients

can can see that in a very similar fashion like they're

being able to see every candidate In the same light in

the same way to be able to evaluate people from an equity

perspective.

Do you ever get pushback from clients? How do

you set it up with the clients that this is going to be a part

of what you do?

Definitely early on, when we have our

kickoff call, we talked through the whole process, everything

that I'm gonna be doing, and then everything that I have, as

far as an expectation from them, I'm getting some bandwidth off

their plate by probably helping to manage schedules and get a

hold on their calendars. So that gets a little buy in because

they're like, oh, this makes things easy. But then a part of

that scheduling of interviews, were also just, I just kind of

assumed that we're going to also schedule the prep call before

all those interviews happen. So I think I start early with

talking through that, oftentimes, bIown isn't too

difficult. But they may need like, I'll tailor the amount of

prep that I do based on how much they do. So if the interview is

with HR, first off, they've got their standard list of

questions, there's maybe a little bit less that I have to

do. But then oftentimes, we'll get a panel involved. And

there'll be three or four people from the organization, that they

value, this idea of having an interview guide in front of them

being assigned questions, and going through those together to

say, who's gonna say, what? And does this question make like

sound like you? Is it something that's kind of authentic to what

you want to say? And so I would say, it's pretty rare that we

get any sort of feedback, we do get a lot of feedback on the

back end. In fact, just recently, I had a whole group of

a panel say this was the most organized, focused process we've

ever had, because of just how detailed you were.

Super cool. And then just just for those of us

that want, maybe you want to try this, for the first time, help

alleviate some fear for us. If you do get pushback, saying hey,

we're good. We don't need that. Thanks. I've held interviews

before. How do you handle clients that maybe don't buy in

right away or don't respond positively to your assumptive?

Hey, we're going to do a client prep here.

I think I would suggest that we try it, I

think equity, there's a lot of organizations that are starting

to, you know, sort of start a journey from a diversity, equity

and inclusion standpoint. And oftentimes, they don't

understand that that can start all the way at the interview

process, not just when they are on boarded somebody to make sure

that they have a good experience with an organization, it is

essential that everybody is being asked the same questions.

And that an organization is treating folks with dignity and

respect through that, instead of just throwing them into an

interview process, that probably doesn't look very good. And so I

think being able to educate them on me supporting that part of

the process typically gets people to sort of say, okay,

yeah, at least we'll meet with you for a half hour.

And if I heard you, right, it sounds like the

way you position it is really that this is in their best

interest. But even sometimes, so in that language of like, from a

legal standpoint, I want to set this up to protect you. But

again, the kudos to you is setting it up in a way that you

don't get a lot of pushback. Okay, so then you get them on

there, you're on your schedule, walk us through, what is this

sound like?

Yeah, with the client prep, it's pretty basic.

Again, we talked about the scheduling of the interviews and

put together this interview guide that gets sent over to

them a few days before the prep, so that everybody involved

whether it's one person, or four, or five, and a panel gets

to see it. So everybody involved gets to have a little bit of

input. So we start off first to talk about logistics. Everybody

got the calendar invites, what are the goals of the interview?

Again, it is to evaluate a candidate, but it's also to show

the candidate a really good experience, because they are

ultimately evaluating anybody involved in the interview

process as well. We talked about the fact that salary will not be

discussed in this part of the interview and the importance of

that, because that, again, is handled through me. And it's

something that just doesn't need to muddy the waters or make

anything kind of feel off when you're talking to those

questions. And then we do schedule a debrief afterwards.

So after they've interviewed the candidates that are involved in

this part, they want to get them all on the phone together again,

for even a 30 minutes or so to just talk about how did it go.

Aside from that, though, we are having them fill out fill out

evaluation forms, either in a matrix form or you know, like a

Google form, so that they can individually share feedback, and

then I get that feedback. But then I also want to share it

kind of from their mouths together later. So I get kind of

two sides to a really good, deep, like feedback point from

an individual perspective than then kind of as a group. So the

client prep is is pretty easy. And you know, very process

driven. Now the candidate prep, I think there's a little bit

more emotion, and sort of a deeper field to how to handle

that. As I said, prepping and debriefing with candidates is

actually probably my favorite part of the job. But again, it's

something that I have set the tone for this when I started the

relationship with the candidate once I've started vetting them

and I've had multiple conversations with them. I've

submitted them to the client. I'll similarly, they were asked

to have an interview, I have told them that if they get that

interview, they will be prepping and debriefing with me all the

way through the whole process. So again, kind of trying to

build that bond and setting up that expectation that, hey,

we're going to talk a lot, and being able to kind of let them

know that they will have to share how things went both from

a logistics standpoint, from an emotional standpoint, and all

those other elements, which I think is really key to to part

of that process. So I'll usually schedule a candidate prep, you

know, 24, to 40 to 48 hours before that candidate has their

interview, before the prep call, I'll send them an email with

things like the names of the people that they'll be meeting

with what their titles are usually a link to their

LinkedIn. And then we have several good documents that we

kind of say take it or leave it. But there's a lot of value in

being able to read these interviews and to support

yourself through this. So it's a hitting the target during a

personal interview, answering the tell me about yourself

question. And then we've got a link regarding the STAR method,

and how to use that this technique to ace the next job

interview. I think a lot of times people when they answer

questions, especially behavioral questions, I talk a lot about

the situation, the tasks that they had, the actions that they

took, but they sometimes forget to really like all circle it and

bring in the results. What happened at the end, and after

all the work that you did, what were the results. And so the

that document can be really helpful for folks to sort of

review and look through, again, these preps give me face to face

time and just build a better relationship and bond with these

folks. And ultimately, I want them to trust me through the

process. Because if we get to a finish line, there's a lot of

things that we cover that I need them to share and talk me

through. So again, it's just another face to face meeting

with them that I feel is really important. Again, every

candidate usually goes through the same type of crap, we go

through the same information. And I tell them that you

probably won't be great in this interview, but it's helping you

put your best foot forward. And so again, take a look at the

information that I that I share with you here. So what I get

them on a prep call, the first question I ask is, has anything

changed since we last talked behind listening for? Are they

in other interview processes? Has their enthusiasm level

gotten higher or lower? At this point in the process? You know,

how much research have have they done? Just how are they feeling

in general? Are they somebody who typically kind of is more

relaxed? You know, are they somebody who gets really anxious

before an interview, trying to kind of get get in their head a

little bit around that. And it also lets me sort of see how

much prep work they've actually done so far, and how much I need

to kind of push them to continue to do more research or look up

more stuff? Or or, you know, how do you know the names of the

people and their titles, and you looked at where they went to

school, things like that. We'll go through logistics next. So

whether it's virtual or in person, so So the who, where

when how, what's the agenda, you know, all those kinds of things

that just really aware of, of what's happening. And then

something that I suggest that they do is schedule a call with

a friend or family member member, somebody they trust 30

minutes before an interview, somebody that can champion them

and give them just some love before their interview. But

sometimes it's not necessary if the person's a little bit more

relaxed. But if there's any outs of anxiousness, it's a fun

suggestion to just say, hey, grab a friend and tell them to

call you or you call them 30 minutes before and say you've

got this, that or you know, I think a lot of times in thinking

ahead, we talk about you know, like the power pose or saying in

front of the mirror and saying you got this, things like that.

So I encourage people to do that before and planning it before

the interview. So after we've gone through logistics, we

talked about the people they'll be meeting with. So what's their

background? What's their personality? What's their style,

you know, how do they interview, if you're the first person in an

interview, versus maybe the fifth person to go through an

interview, I may know a little less, because I haven't gotten

feedback from other candidates about how the interview process

went. But it's, it's still good. I've now talked with those

clients and the folks that they'll be meeting with because

I did the client prep. So I've got a little bit more of an

understanding on you know, who's going to be somebody that's

going to have more energy, who's going to be somebody that maybe

asks more questions is the talkative one, the facilitator,

things like that. So I'll be able to just go through that.

And I encourage people, I want them to be authentic in

themselves in an interview process, because that's going to

be how they show up for work every day. But I think it's also

super important to balance and match sort of the level of

energy that the interviewees are giving off. And, you know, if

they're kind of call calm, cool collected, it's probably more so

how you should be but if you've got someone who's high energy,

they don't lean into that and also sort of match that energy.

So, again, authenticity is really important, but I think

there's also something to be said about just kind of like a

self aware understanding of who you're with. Okay, the interview

questions, you know, what can be expected? What do they need to

prepare for? I don't actually give them the exact questions

and the list of things that they're going to say, well,

we'll talk about the essence of the question and sort of why are

they asking it? This is the question that you're going to be

having to talk about ABC topic. And this is why they want to get

a better understanding of your ability to do this. This isn't

done to give the candidates the answers, but it allows them to

just prepare and put their best foot foot forward, I have a

personal belief that we live in a culture that glorifies fast

paced, and on the spot decision making, which is necessary, I

realized that but I think there's also a lot of value and

strength in allowing people to process and plan. We talked

about closing the interview. So I'll ask them to, you know, wrap

up the interview, usually they've asked their questions of

the client. But before they go, I encourage everybody to sort of

say some sort of version of of this phrase, thank them comment

on something that you've learned or something that you're

grateful for? And then say some version of before I go, Are

there any last minute hesitations, reservations or

concerns you have about my candidacy? I don't want them to

say do you have any last minute questions, it's reservations,

hesitations or concerns, I feel that this is so important,

because they do have something they'll probably share it with,

you now have an opportunity to address it on the spot. The last

thing I want is for the client to say, Well, they didn't really

talk about their experience doing this, but they never

asked, they never got the opportunity to actually like,

share a little bit more about that. And if it is something

that maybe it's a weakness that you do have, you still could

address it and maybe find something that is a you know, a

skill set that that's very similar, or you're able to, you

know, sort of just know where they feel that you have

something that doesn't meet the needs. And again, it's just an

opportunity to, to address it candid information is really,

really important. I think it's an old question and allows

people just some strength at the end to sort of close it up on

their terms, then we will schedule a debrief with the

candidate as well. So I want to talk with them, ideally, an hour

after their interview sometime within that hour, or just

immediately after. And so we scheduled that for just a 15

minute thing, Hey, your interviews over, give me a call,

let's get let's talk about how it went questions that typically

asked her, you know, logistics, like was everybody on time? Was

there any tech issues? How did it go? Things like that. And

then I'll ask tell me very, very broadly, like, how do you feel

that it went, and some listening for things like, again, enhanced

enthusiasm, anything that they feel they maybe didn't do? So?

Well, we'll talk about what did they learn from the interview?

Were there questions that you told me you wanted to ask? Did

you get to ask those? And were there additional? Was there

additional information that that you were able to hear and learn?

Based on how you're feeling so far? Do you feel like this is a

job that you can handle? As well as is this something that's

going to challenge you enough? You know, so where do they kind

of land with that, based on what they learned about the job? How

is the synergy with the people that you talk to, especially if

this is somebody that they would be reporting to or appear? And

we'll just kind of go through those questions. And again, kind

of just letting them download on how it went? I asked them about

that question, how they close the interview? If they did they

ask it be? Did they have any sort of responses? And then were

they able to overcome anything? We next then coach them to, of

course, write a thank you note. But what I would say is based on

this debriefing with me, is there anything that you and I

just talked about that you could add and include into a thank you

note, maybe it's something that you wish you would have

clarified or something you were really grateful that you learned

or something that you found as a connection between that that

candidate or that client and yourself, those are the things

to add into a thank you note, I feel that these are super

important, I want you to make it less generic and more personal.

So again, anything that you may have have connected on, I have

had many clients tell me that a good thank you note has had a

candidate rise above others because of the effort that was

put into a good Sanku no need to do anything to the mail anymore.

Virtual note is just fine. I get asked that question a lot too.

You'll probably know if you made it or not sooner than a note

would get to them in the mail. And then the last part of the

debriefs that I have is just be really honest about what I'm

going to be able to have feedback, I never want to over

promise, a timeframe that I will be able to share news with them.

And regardless of the decision, I will let them know and

mechanistic client was able to offer me about how the interview

went.

Wow. So now let's talk for just a second

about the client debrief. Again, I think this is part of it. It's

like a no brainer, but because so many people just take it for

granted, it doesn't end up adding anything to the process.

So walk us through your client debrief.

So again, this is something that we scheduled,

you know, after all of the interviews for that round, you

know, so you've got around one interview, anybody that was

involved with that will schedule that whether it's one person or

five, and we typically go through each candidate

separately, just kind of letting them share. How do they feel?

like it went with, you know, John, Sarah, Jim, I also share

with them the feedback. So I've had that conversation with the

the candidate about, you know, things that they talked about

things, they enjoyed it, maybe some like starstruck pieces that

that happen, I'll share that first so that they can kind of

usually it's good stuff because most often the candidates feel

like, you know, it went well. But they'll resonate with things

that maybe were said there, which I feel like kind of helps

them either remember some parts of those interviews that that

happened? And also find like a connection with that person,

like, oh, yeah, that we did talk about that, or Oh, no, I did,

she did share that. So I think that that part is really

important to just be candid, we'll go through each candidate,

and let everybody just sort of share. Sometimes people disagree

on stuff, which is really interesting. But I tried to just

really ask probing questions versus trying to input anything

about my experience with the candidate. Because, you know,

we're all human, sometimes I, you know, have favorites and

everything. I don't want to involve myself in that part of

the process at all. I want them to hear from each other about

how it went and how it happened. It also depends on is this a

panel appears? Or is this an executive leadership team versus

the hiring manager. And so I try to keep the hiring manager on or

record those debriefs with the client so that the hiring

manager can whoever the decision maker is about the candidate, I

want to make sure that they're able to listen to on how those

debriefs with went with everybody else involved. But

again, on the back end, I've gotten evaluation forms from

everybody in real time, right after an interview, that then I

typically will either share or talk with the hiring manager,

you know, about how those how those why, and, you know,

usually it just kind of ends with a, you know, thank you, I

really, really appreciate your time, because oftentimes, if it

isn't the hiring manager, you know, they took time out of

their day to make sure that these interviews happen, which I

think is really important to value their time as well. And

again, I know upfront, who is making the decisions, and so if

it's a group of folks that did the interview process that are

just there to provide conflict, a balance, thank you, and we

didn't move on. And if it is the hiring manager, you know,

there's been our goal is to always have two good candidates

at the very end. And so oftentimes, it's a lot of

probing and what were the things that were the real strengths,

what are the things you know, that that maybe you feel like

long term could be an issue or those kinds of things? So So

really, it's all about just being really intentional about

the questions, I'm asking them so that they can come to a

conclusion for themselves on whether a candidate is.

Candidly, listening to you talk, two huge

takeaways. Number one, your candidates have got to feel like

you are a huge ally and advocate for them. Again, to our point

earlier, most folks interviewing is not what they do for a

living. So getting into a situation where you're really

preparing them. And I love what you said about the authenticity,

you're not preparing them to be a quote unquote, good

interviewer, but rather preparing them to put their best

foot forward to maximize the time that they spend with folks

knowing that they're covering, you know, thoughts, questions,

concerns, and an hour. Yeah, anytime you have to have a

meaningful conversation, a prep would be super helpful. That's

incredible. And then, on the client side, the attention to

detail that you provide, has got to give them tremendous

confidence when it's time for them to make a decision.

Thank you a search ago that I had this year,

I've had the candidate that was the number two seed that didn't

get the job, right, Greg, my boss an email telling him just

how important that process of the interview like the prep

debrief with her was a professional that how much it

supported her. It was really, really enjoyable to read,

because it was the person that didn't get the job that felt the

like need to share.

Man, what a tribute to you. Okay, anything

else that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure

it gets on here?

I haven't worked for other search firms. I

don't know what this process is for other groups. But I think I

believe firmly that thinking ahead does this the best. I

think that thinking ahead, really owns this part of the

process values, it takes it very seriously. It isn't just

something that's like Oak Park, we got to make sure this happens

for myself, and I know many others, whether it's a nonprofit

team, or I'm assuming, you know, other groups. There's a lot of

care that goes into this because it is what makes our ratios so,

so tight. And it's what makes us be able to say that, you know,

we get we get candidates in seats, even though yes, we're

finding the great talent. I feel like we're also stewarding a

part of the process that just maybe not doesn't get as much attention.

I think it's a huge advantage for working with

a boutique firm versus and again, everybody has the right

to earn a living however they choose and different models fit

different people but thinking ahead being a boutique firm

versus a resume broker or volume shop. This is an area that we

really have an opportunity to make a significant impact, even

to your point on the folks who don't get the job. Yeah. Thank

you so much for your willingness to share this with our

listeners. I'm going to encourage if anybody has any

additional thoughts or questions or wants to see some of the

documentation that Heather sends out, I know she's incredibly

approachable. You can find her on LinkedIn reach out, you can

find her through our website thinking ahead.com Thank the

listeners for being with us. Thank you, Heather.

Thank you for having me.