You are listening to the we need to Talk About Oscar podcast and this is our conversation with Johnny Levin and Keith Clark, the producer director duo behind the documentary series Call Me Ted.

I'm used to writing scripts that are three act structure and Ted actually is a three act structure.

Naturally, we had the fortunate opportunity to live in his world and to keep remembering and keep remembering and, you know, it gave you kind of hope that, you know what, someone will rise up again.

How about we start with something I hold so dear in general and what serves as the entry point for every episode of Call Me Ted as well, the main title or theme, where you have to find somewhat of a middle ground between grabbing the viewer's attention without, dare I say, being too sensational or overtly flamboyant.

How did discussions begin and evolve when it came to this part of the docu series since, as I mentioned, this is what every single episode starts off with?

Well, first of all, Ted did his autobiography in 2008 and it was called Call Me Ted.

And he did an audio, he did the audiobook himself.

So you're listening to Ted tell his own story and it's coming up with titles is always hard for the simple reason of what you just said.

You want to sensationalize it or make it provocative or mysterious.

And the reality is, is that whenever you meet Ted, you know, he is such an icon.

There's a natural thing to say, Mr.

Turner.

And Ted is so down to earth across the board.

He just says, call me Ted.

I mean, the first time I ever met him, I actually he had, he had bought the very first thing that I had ever, ever made.

And then after that gave me another project.

So I had gone to pick him up to interview him for that.

And I remember getting, you know, him coming out into the car and I put my hand out and I said, you know, hello Mr.

Turner.

And he just, in that big booming, you know, Atlanta Southern draw went call me Ted, you know, and that was what I always remember.

And he would do that with everybody, you know, and so that as a title felt very appropriate.

But if you're talking more about the entire title sequence that we, that we, we start with, I think, you know, we thought a lot about.

Most people don't even know who Ted Turner is.

They maybe know CNN or maybe Jane.

And so we felt as if, because we wanted to grab an audience that we knew, we had a built in audience of those that did know who Ted was, you know, but didn't know everything about Ted.

But there was a huge audience out there, the younger generation that we always felt needed to really take a page from him and become those citizens of the world that can help change the momentum of a game like he has done and continues to do.

And so it was like, okay, how do we get them.

Get them enticed and get them excited and also give them little.

Little moments, little sound bites of information that's going to be, oh, wow, I did not, you know, he said that.

Or to be able to get them to sit down and go, I would like to watch this.

So I think that was in our mind when we were trying to come up with something for that opening title sequence.

No, you said it well.

But we always knew the biggest challenge Ted has been if we're.

We went in this with open eyes.

We knew Ted had been out of media Spotlight since literally 2001.

He was fired.

It was a part of the.

It's part of our story.

He was fired from Warner aol.

He was kept in his position.

He was still paid.

But they said, you have no responsibility.

You have no say in the.

So we knew that we.

Our challenge was, is how do we entice this generation?

And so the choices that were made were to make it feel fast, you know, hip.

The cuts, the way we cut it.

And it was also actually Ted's energy.

That's how he lived.

That's how he lives his life.

He.

I mean, the guy barely sleeps.

Throughout his whole life, people stood back aghast at how could he accomplish what he accomplished in 24 hours.

It's because basically, you know, he's a whirling dervish.

I mean, he.

Somebody said this, and it's so true.

You know, he.

He's.

It's like a shark.

If you don't keep moving, you die.

And that's pretty much how he felt.

And that was his energy, you know, and so we felt that the piece needed to have that energy.

And that's actually a great line, because Ted had to keep moving, because if he stopped, he would be haunted by the relationship with his father, the death of his father, et cetera.

Because that's the thing that haunted Ted.

It was the sins of the father that haunted Ted.

That pushed him on through his entire life.

And so the idea that he could not stop.

He dreaded being alone.

I mean, that's what's so wonderful about his book.

What his book and his audiobook gave to us was a candid look at an ordinary person who did extraordinary things.

That's a cliche.

But the thing is that he carried so much baggage and pain each and every day.

And I think it's a testament and an inspiration that in spite of that, despite all of that, he achieved things that very few people have done in any lifetime.

We.

And so we were able to.

When we sat down with friends, Ted had.

Okay.

Ted had no say in, in the editorial of this.

No.

When I went, When I decided this was something I wanted to do.

And again, it was because he gave me my start.

Early on, he.

Besides buying the first thing I ever.

I ever made, he had another big project after he had bought MGM and could not afford it, which was typical of him, and sold back the studio, but decided he was going to keep the library because he said every single.

Every single movie in that library are like Rembrandts.

And everybody thought he was crazy.

Why would you want to keep the library?

Needless to say, cut to where we are today, and everybody has to have a library.

You know, they're building their library.

So once again, he was prescient.

And so he wanted to do sort of a big promo piece on the library, and he was going to give it to some very big Oscar winning producers.

And I remember talking to the president of the company going, what about me?

And the guy went, well, we love your enthusiasm, but you've done one thing.

And I said, well, you always a good one thing.

And I begged and begged and begged and begged, and they said, we gotta talk to Ted.

And so they went, talked to him, and to his credit, he went with the Underdog, which is me, and gave me the opportunity to do it.

And in return, I gave him his first Emmy.

So that began our relationship.

And so he really, somewhere there, he saw something, which is what he did with so many people.

He saw something and then he gave them that lift up, he opened up that door for them to walk in.

So I am.

We did a lot of other things thereafter.

So I was always kind of keen on him and had known about him and had read some of his books to how CNN got started.

And it was just one day.

I decided, you know what?

I want to do a documentary on his life.

And I called his office and over the course of eight months, calling every month.

They loved the idea, but they said we got to run it up the ladder.

I eventually got a meeting with Ted, told him what I wanted to do, and he was like, well, you don't need me.

And I said, well, I'm not doing it without your permission.

I said, but that doesn't mean you're going to have any say.

In.

It's just that, you know, I, I, I know that I'm the one to do this.

And, you know, the one thing he did say to me, which was so funny, goes, so, okay, so how are you going to do this?

And so Ted.

And I went, you mean, how am I going to pay for this?

And he goes, yeah, because I'm not.

And I just started laughing.

And I said, well, I'm not asking you to.

I said, but I am going to ask your friends, which is what I ended up doing, which is all those executive producers, they were his friends, and they helped me finance us independently.

And we, after, you know, I sent him the proposal, and he said, okay and gave life rights carte blanche.

And of course, I worked very closely with his people and his office and gathered so much of his personal stuff.

And he, you know, his people opened up the door a lot for us, but, and we would give him things to look at, but he never, he never said, you need to change this, you need to change that.

The one thing at the end, when he saw the whole piece, he, he did say that he felt that it was very honest and accurate, as hard as it was sometimes to watch it, because it brought back some memories that weren't always good memories for him, but he did feel that it was honest and authentic.

And so that was, like, the best thing.

But I think part of him knew that he didn't need to be a part of this because otherwise it would have been slanted and we weren't going to do that.

We needed to cover warts and all.

Yeah, and that's what was so cool about his book, as I said earlier, is that he was so candid.

He, you know, he talked about not being there for his children and the affairs that he had, you know, in the pain of loss.

And, I mean, and I'm not aware.

And I read a lot of nonfiction, I read a lot of autobiographies where people are so candid, they might tell you about incidents in their life that will evoke, you know, an audience's emotional response of empathy or sympathy or whatever.

But he went deeper than that.

I mean, he, he was so incredibly vulnerable in his book.

And the Jodi, you know, she, she came to me one day and says, I'm going to get Ted's.

I want to do a documentary on Ted.

And I said, honey, that's great.

I'll be happy to see it, because I had no interest in doing a documentary at that time.

I've done documentaries.

I love documentaries.

But I had no interest at that time.

I was more in.

Involved in writing scripts, narrative scripts.

So she went and did her thing, which is amazing.

You know the one Tom Johnson, who is the head of CNN through the period of the Iraq War, 1990-2000.

When we sat down and interviewed him, he took us aside and says, how did you get this?

How did you get Ted to give you the right to make his story?

He said, because I've tried to do it.

I don't want to mention names.

But some of the top documentarians went to him and said, can we do your life story?

And somehow Ted just innately trusted Joni.

I don't know.

I mean, I know why, but I mean, it's.

So she come back and she said, I got the rights and I think you really need to read the book.

And so I read the book.

I thought, wow, this is pretty impressive.

And then we got the audiobook.

And then when you hear Ted in that booming voice in the audiobook, it was just such a revelation to be able to hear the vulnerability of this one.

One of the most powerful men in the country for nearly 20 years, 21, 22 years.

The things that he shared so openly.

I set him in.

And initially it was going to be a two and a half, two hour, two and a half hour feature film documentary.

That was the plan.

That was the budget, by the way.

That's what she raised.

She went to the investors and she said, we're making two hour film, two and a half hour feature film.

This is the budget.

We should be okay with what we want to do.

But as soon as I started doing a deep dive and, you know, started doing the interviews, it went from two and a half hours to what is ostensibly a six hour documentary.

He's a, as I said, he's a big meal.

And you don't shortchange the meal.

And so we just, you know, at that point it was like, we are so in.

I'm taking a page from Ted and we just go as fast as you can, as far as you can.

Don't worry about the money because we'll get there.

But I had a lot of help from everybody who gave us stuff for free in terms of archival material, because as, as you've seen, there's like six hours of archive material in there.

And so.

And that stuff can be just re it.

It basically can stop you from making anything because it's so costly.

And I just had, you know, my executive producers who I call my wingmen, you know, I would call them up and go who do you know there?

And they would, like, know, like the chairman, you know, it was like.

And they, you know, were able to.

And everybody just was like, we need more inspirational stories, like Ted.

Absolutely.

We're going to help you.

Tell you.

Tell us what you need.

And so it became a village.

It really did, in terms of making this and getting this to happen.

I mean, it took a village and took all the support and in the goodwill from everybody, you know, because everybody kind of saw Ted and realized he's an important story right now.

I mean, one.

One chairman of one of the companies said, you know, we need more inspirational stories in this day and age.

And we do.

Yeah, I definitely share your point.

Like, many times people say how villain stories are way more interesting and everything, but when do we need insp.

Inspirational stories if not now?

Just when.

That's right.

Right now.

And as I was saying before, he was not a guy who was a transactional guy.

I mean, right now we have a government that's all.

Transaction.

That's all it is.

You know, it's like.

And you just kind of are just, you know, thinking, you know, these people are just bowing down to a bully.

And he.

He would never do that.

That.

That he pushed back, you know, and we need the people now to push back.

And that.

That is the thing that I wish and our audience, a younger audience, would watch this and realize, you know, Ted, no was not an option to him.

He took no and he turned it into on.

That was Ted.

And this is a message that the younger audience that everybody should take a page from and just go, you know, what if this is what you believe in?

Because he was a believer, he believed, you know, and because of that, he just pushed forward.

And look at what he accomplished.

Not just one thing, not just cnn, but when you go through the litany of stuff, it's just like, you know, there's so much.

And so I just feel like if people could watch this and just take away one thing, you know, then maybe that would help again change the momentum of this game we're in, you know, which is a beautiful game, but it can go south very quickly, you know.

In light of what you're saying about the transactional Ted.

At his heart, he wanted to make the world a better place for everybody.

And that's proven by him, the amount of money he's donated over the years.

Also, he lost money on projects that he knew going in.

He was going to lose money.

The great example of that is the Goodwill Games.

He really believed that the world would be safer if the enemies at that time in the Cold War, the Soviet Union and the US nuclear dynasties, if they could just talk.

And they had not spoken literally in that Cold War in the late 70s, 80s, Soviet Union had gone into Afghanistan, caused all kinds of problems, et cetera, et cetera.

And so he felt that if he could create the Goodwill Games, where Soviet sports people and us could compete against each other, we could show that each population a different side of their cultures.

And so it became a huge success.

Success.

It was an Olympic style.

They had 3,000, 4,000 contestants.

When you look at it, I mean, it just matched everything that the Olympics had done.

But he knew, he was told by his accountants, you're going to lose 30, 40, $50 million if you do this.

And he says, it makes no difference.

The.

The bigger issue is bringing people together and this might be a way into it.

And as it turned out, he created a lifelong friendship with Gorbachev, who then created perestroika, which led to the Berlin Wall coming down and Gorb Shaft gives Ted credit A.

Because of the Goodwill Games and because of Ted's connections and his politics, we have to come together.

There is no good ending to this if we don't.

And so here's a guy who's not transactional at all.

He was willing to lose money, and that's why he's an inspiration today.

We need a Ted Turner today who's willing to say, hey, I'm a rich man or not a rich man, but I'm willing to lose whatever, because the world needs to come together.

That's how we're going to survive as a race.

Talk to each other, which is what CNN was all about, was connecting people so that everybody had the facts.

It was not about personalities, it was about the facts.

And so, yeah, so he was.

He was about doing the right thing.

You know, that's very powerful when you think about it.

You know, it's being able to step back and go, okay, what's the right thing to do here?

You know, as you can see, we're very enthusiastic.

It's not about a documentary.

It's for enthusiastic about Ted.

Yeah.

It's who he is.

And as you.

If anybody who sees the documentary, we are not lavishing praise on him.

It is a very hard to watch at times, documentary.

We don't whitewash him at all.

We.

We show all of the good, bad and ugly of who he was personally.

On that note, the idea of not whitewashing Ted.

Johnny, if I may, even though it was primarily the start of your professional career.

The start easily becomes, or remembered, personal as well.

So how was handling this part of the story and keeping it as objective as possible?

The director makes sense because even though we're married and.

And we have a wonderful working relationship, in that there's definitely a division of labor.

But I am a creative producer, and so I do read what he writes, or I'll look at stuff, and if there's something that I feel is really important to me, I will just say I think it's important not just because it's personal, but because I think.

And he'll.

He'll think about it.

I mean, he'll.

He'll take the time and he'll really think about it.

And sometimes he'll make that change, and sometimes he won't.

But I think that at the end of the day, my personal feelings about Ted, it's hard to not translate and have everybody feel kind of the same thing, because when you tell the story.

And we had.

I guess we had sent the film to his nephew, who's 38.

38, yeah.

And they live in the UK, so they hadn't gotten it yet.

And he watched it, and I thought it was so interesting.

His comment, he says, not only did I binge it and put it down, he says, but he is not always.

He's a very flawed kind of person, you know, he says, but.

But very.

But in spite of that, and not always doing the, you know, in terms of things that he did with his, you know, his proclivity and, you know, with women and stuff, he.

He says he's just so likable because of the other side of it, you know, and so that, I guess, is.

Yeah, I mean, I knew all the things that he's done, but it's sort of like, in spite of that, look, he was not a righteous man.

You know, he wasn't.

He went from being pretty much of a selfish guy to becoming close to selfless towards the end.

But that's his arc.

That's his journey, and we all can relate to that.

You know, I mean, we all have, you know, those sides of us.

It was like, oh, God, we're being so selfish or whatever, you know, but, you know, the journey, and you hope that we all have that journey is to be able to kind of get to that other place.

And so.

So there was.

Yeah, so I definitely had my emotional feelings, and I definitely knew he was the one that I wanted to direct this because I knew he was the right person to direct it.

And.

And he would.

He would have the objectivity.

Because I.

Yeah, I'm sure I don't always, but.

Well, she said that's not true.

I think that you would be more.

You'd be more true to the story, not to a whitewash.

Yeah, you'd feel uncomfortable not covering certain stuff.

But again, going back to the book, the vulnerability in the book, the candidness of the book.

You know, we told Ted this is going to be our Bible.

And what we meant by that is, in every interview, I gave them a list of questions that beforehand, days before, week, take a look.

If there's anything that's uncomfortable, you know, you can cross off.

And then.

But I told them we are not.

We're going to all the places that Ted went to in the book.

So it's covering all the good, the bad and the ugly.

Ted has given us that permission.

He knows that.

So.

And then we would.

I would sit down with them and I would say.

And I'd have the book with me, like the Bible.

I'd say, this is the parameters.

It tells us.

We can ask you any question and you can answer it.

Because he's answered a lot of these questions.

And you could almost see a relief of, oh, great, this is not going to be a fluff piece.

Because that was so interesting.

There's been a lot of documentaries on Ted, usually about an hour long, a lot of them by CNN and over the years, 60 Minutes, 2020 and all of that stuff.

And they're not deep.

They're good, but they're not necessarily deep.

They usually pass over his childhood, and they always mention, your father committed suicide.

That must have impacted you.

Three seconds later, they're onto whatever they need to be talking about.

The environment, you know, whatever it is.

And so several of these people had been interviewed for those documentaries.

So when I held up the book and then I started asking questions, you could see them literally, in a physical way, change their posture.

Because it went from, oh, I know the questions.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, here's the rote question that I've repeated before.

And I'd say, no, no, no, that's not the answer that I think.

Then I'd say, the question is this, and Ted has given us permission.

And then you could literally see them sit back, and then they could share candidly, openly about this man that they loved who had deep flaws.

And I think that that comes off in the documentary.

Jane is a perfect example.

Jane Fonder is a perfect example.

So we sat down with her and she just started.

So I asked her a question.

Then she, like, In a Mind, a five minute monologue.

Oh, I know where we're going.

Okay, let me tell you told this story many times and then was like, okay, Jane, I appreciate that, but that's not what we're doing here.

We're doing deep dive.

Ted has given me permission to ask you these questions.

You have the opportunity to tell the story that you want to tell.

And I swear to God, it was like, oh, okay.

And then what we were told was.

And this happened regularly, we were told often, Listen, you got an hour.

You just have an hour with this person, you know, whoever you're interviewing.

Every interview was a minimum of two hours up to four hours.

And then several of them called back and said, listen, I was cut off because I had to go somewhere after four hours, can we continue the interview?

And it was because they felt a comfort in sharing the humanity of the man.

That was.

The thing about the book, is that here was an ordinary human being with struggles, as I've already said, and even in spite of all that, with major depression, therapy, lithium, not being able to sleep, not being able to stay alone, abandonment issues.

All of those things that the general public can relate to on some level.

He had.

And yet he says it was not going to stop me.

How amazing is that, as an inspirational story is that, look at me, I'm in pain.

I carry this burden.

My father killed himself.

Was it my fault?

Why didn't he tell me?

And then.

And yet I'm going to carry on and I want to change the world.

I want to make it a better place.

And, you know, he could have been a son of a bitch.

You know, look at the stuff that his father did to him.

You know, he could have just been a real shit, but he wasn't.

You know, I would dispute that.

I think he was at times, at times, and that's in the documentary.

But in general, and he was loyal.

You know, people had said he was so loyal to all his, his workers.

I mean, people stayed.

Everybody that's worked for him and with him at his company have been there for 30 plus years and more.

I mean, they just stayed because he, you know, they respected him and he respected them, you know, And I think that again, people have said that he was honest to a fault, you know, and you know, you just kind of go, well, he, this is the, this is what he chose to do for.

Himself, you know, you know, honest to a fault, you know, as it's well documented in the documentary, is that, you know, he just spoke his mind.

He didn't.

He did not have a filter.

I mean, he, he pissed off a lot of people and at all junctures, he apologized, he acknowledged I shouldn't have said that I was wrong.

It just came out of my mind.

And that's in the documentary too.

You know, some of the stuff that he said in public, you know.

You know, he'd be banned to another planet in today's climate, to say the least.

But, you know, he was big enough to be able to admit a mistake.

You know, Harris, he was arrogant and humble, you know.

Yeah.

The dichotomy of Ted Turner is, you know, still stands us, even as we, you know, we're still doing some.

Not work on the documentary.

It's done, it's out there, it will have its own life.

But we have to revisit it on occasion for, you know, you know, for awards, cutting together certain things, etc.

And we, we.

We look back at it as if we're watching it for the first time, and we're like, wow, where is the Ted Turner for today?

Where's the Ted Turner for today?

Isn't that interesting?

But that's.

That was the takeaway in a way, because it was so such a profound experience.

And again, for five years, we were in Covid.

We were in.

We were in writer strikes, director strikes, actor strikes, you know, and then just the chaos of politics and the.

And the.

I mean, everything.

And yet we had.

We had the fortunate opportunity to live in his world and to keep remembering and keep remembering.

And, you know, it gave you kind of hope that, you know, what, someone will rise up again.

You know, someone will.

I mean, he's still with us and he's still doing the best he can, you know, but there'll be another one coming along.

There has to be.

And as for your excess and the extent of the coverage of Ted's life, I believe this is pretty much the number one thing everyone or anyone thinks about, consciously or unconsciously, when watching a documentary about someone's life.

There are, of course, the facts, usually even in the case of the most famous people, limited, but hopefully more trustworthy.

And then somewhat in contrast, the more private, intimate stuff moments, which of course, bring out the emotional side of it all.

What was finding the balance between the two like?

Well, okay, so the choice that I made is that I wanted to tell a drama.

It was Ted's life is a drama.

And I did this linear story from when he was born until today, you know, with his Lewy body.

And I wanted it.

I wanted the audience never to.

I didn't I never wanted to foretell where we were going.

And so I think that I'm used to writing scripts that are three act structure.

And Ted actually is a three act structure.

Naturally.

You know, the first, you know, you.

You get his life, you set up the world of his life, you know, his relationship with his father, predominantly the brutality of his father, both physical and psychological, etc.

And then, you know, Ted has this one phone call where his father's deciding, you know, to sell the business or parts of the business or whatever it is.

And then they have this angry exchange.

Then two days, three days later, the father kills himself.

So Ted's last moment with his father was an angry one.

So that's the first act, then the second act is how he recovers from that.

And then even though he's haunted, he moves forward.

So all along I'm dropping seeds, as you do in a normal dramatic story.

And then you start realizing that they're all connected.

And I think by doing that, it was easy for me to connect the two between the, the emotional side, the true side, etc.

And the bigger side of him.

And then, of course, the idea if, if I wrote this as fiction, I believe this, and friends who've seen the documentary said if this was fiction, people would laugh you out of the room.

Because the idea that ted, you know, 35 years later, is in the exact same position as his father was.

His father was losing his business, he had lost his daughter, whom he loved and cherished.

And he, although he had remarried, he actually, the father had called Ted's mother, who divorced and said, will you come back to me?

You're the love of my life.

That's true.

35 years later, Ted loses the love of his life, Jane Fonda.

He's been fired from this organization that he created, had lost $8 billion literally overnight.

And then his granddaughter is dying of this horrendous disease.

And so he has to face.

He understands that I'm in the same position as my father.

And friends, as it is in the documentary, friends were concerned that he might kill himself.

And there is dramatically one night where he's on his own in a house filled with guns, where he's contemplating, because he'd been talking about it for a while at the possibility that's how concerned his friends were.

And then obviously, what brings him through, which I think is beautiful, is that the family that he kind of abandoned through his early life, his own family, his kids, they're the ones who saved him.

Not by being there, but by understanding that the pain that he's carried for all these years, he could not pass on to them and how much he loved them and he was not going to burden them.

That's a huge thing when you contemplate in suicide.

And so if I wrote that as fiction, it would be too coincidental.

So that's.

And that becomes the end of the second act.

And how does he recover from that?

And as we know, he'd been fired, he was out of cnn, lost all this money, and yet he said, okay, I'm going to continue on with my philanthropic works, saving extinct animals, bison, different animals in the wild, donated $200 million to nuclear treaty.

I mean, he just created a new life for himself.

And I hope that answers your question.

Yeah, it does.

And I'd like to wrap with a pretty big question, especially considering that you are filmmakers, writers.

Do you believe that the best stories are written by life?

Well, I would say yes, because I think every story is about life.

It's great that you have all the special effects and all of that stuff, but even at the heart of the best, you know, superhero is there's a human story that we can relate to at some level.

That's what works.

We just rewatched Arrival.

Denise.

Denise Villeneuve.

It's a great story.

And, you know, we watch it several.

Times, so many times.

And, you know, at the heart of that is this really powerful story.

You can get caught up in the science fiction of it and aliens and all that, but at the core of.

It, it's about communication.

It's communication and it is life.

That's great.

You're right.

Think about it.

It's about communicating, whether it's people on this planet or somebody from another planet.

And like you said, for me, it's the characters and all characters are sort of drawn from life.

Right.

Life experiences.

And so for me, if you have a character that you are invested in and you.

You want to spend time with, you know, and I think, and explore, you know, it opens up so many aspects of life.

Yeah.

Look, the bottom line is, is I think that, you know, it's all of that.

It has to be all about life, all about the struggles, the joy, all of the emotions.

You might not get those all in a film, but it's relatable to an audience at some level.

If there's five emotions going on, five stories going on in one movie, an audience is going to grasp onto one, at least, and then it becomes their story.

If you're successful in telling stories.

I think that's the thing.

If you can grab an audience at some level, then they'll follow you all the way through.

They'll walk away.

And as you.

And I think you're absolutely right.

It's about communication.

Because if somebody walks away, that's that filmmaker has communicated an idea that at some point gives understanding to that audience member about their own life, and they can walk away with it as a positive to say, I can change my life.

I do believe that stories change lives in profound ways, in ways that we'll never know as storytellers.

I mean, I think that's why I wanted to get involved with filmmaking, whether it's documentary or whatever, is that if it evokes some kind of emotion in people and it can kind of shift them when they leave the theater, then you've done your job.

You know, not only just entertaining, but for me, it's always been about, what do you want?

What do you want to walk?

You know, when I create something or when I'm like, ready to start something, I'm always thinking about, I'm almost as if I'm standing in the future going, okay, when people walk out of this theater, what I want them to feel, what I want them to feel.

And.

Because that's kind of where I start, of that place, you know?

And so it is.

It's.

If it can shift you, create a consciousness that you didn't have before, inspire you, you know, something in you, then help make you.

If you just sit down and cry.

I mean, how many times have you gone to a movie and you just.

At the end, you just.

In tears and you're crying and you're realizing, I'm not crying because this movie, but it just, it.

I needed to cry, you know, I needed to have that wish.

I got it.

Exactly.

I would just say that I think the best films, at least one truth in it, and that people recognize that truth and then they can walk away with it and hold on to it.

So, yeah, stories are about life.

And that's the great thing about books in films, is that there is a.

You can tell a horror story, you can tell a comedy, but at the core of it, there will be.

The best ones, will always have a truth and a way of communicating that truth, that the audience walks away.

On a personal level, how many of us have been in a horror movie?

Not many of us, but we've all been scared at some point.

And then.

I mean, that's the power of movies and documentaries.

You can play in a lot of different genres, different worlds.

And at the end of the day.

A truth about lives is the ones that differentiate the great movies from the good movies from the bad.

Move couldn't have said it any better.

And Keith Joni, once again, thank you so much for your time and thank you for telling stories that.

That matter.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

It was really.

It's always fun to talk about, you know, something that you've just gone through, you know, this journey that you've just gone.

What better person to talk about than.

You know, Ted, Hey, I want to thank you.

You know, I'd listened, as I said, to your podcasts, and I could hear the intelligence and the enthusiasm from the other filmmakers that you were able to evoke from them, which, as somebody who does interviews, I know is not always easy.

And so I commend you on your podcast because that damn interest.

I'm sorry, I know.

I'm not.

We're at the end of this interview.

I don't need anything.

But I am just telling you that if anybody's listening or wants, you know.

No, you are very good at what you do.

I thank you very much for allowing us to spend this time with you.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you so much once again.

It means a lot, especially coming from you.

Well, it's come from the heart, so thank you so much.