Now, you cannot separate muscle and fascia, but the idea is to perform certain movements with certain load in a certain way to address just the fascia, because it truly helps muscle.

It's not muscle that's necessarily stretching, it's the fascial component.

And when it's conditioned, it helps with force transmission.

Hello and welcome to the October 4, 2024 edition of the Tri Dock podcast.

I'm your host, Jeff Sankoff, the Tri doc, an emergency physician, triathlon coach, and multiple Ironman finisher coming to you as always from beautiful, sunny Denver, Colorado.

Since the last episode of this program published, we have seen in a very short time the women's Ironman world championship raced in Nice, France, and most recently the latest of the t 100 events that was held in Ibiza, Spain.

Now, both of those events bear discussion, as does some other interesting stories that have taken place in our multi sport world.

However, what I really want to talk about in the few minutes that I have before I launch into the substance of this program is the other major event that took place in Europe on Sunday.

Because I believe, not just as an avid fan of cycling, but as a student of sports history as well, that it was the UCI mens road race for the world championship that arguably will be the thing that will have the most significant impact on this and on generations to come.

Now, if you've been under a rock for the last few days and have not heard about the incredible 100 kilometer attack of 26 year old slovenian rider Tade Pugatcha, including a heretofore unheard of 50 1 km solo ride at the front to victory, then I urge you, go read about it.

Or better yet, find a video on YouTube and you can watch it.

But even if you somehow missed it, I know many of you will already be well versed in his incredible rise.

But lets take a step back just for a second in order to truly appreciate the brilliance of what this guy has done to this point.

Because quite frankly, we are witnessing something really, really special.

Tadi Pugachas story isnt just about winning, its also about how he wins, the sheer audacity and dominance he brings to the sport.

His 2020 Tour de France victory at just 21 years of age is already legendary.

That iconic stage 20 time trial on laden la planche des belle filles wasnt just a coup.

It was a seismic moment in cycling.

Think about it.

Heres this young, relatively unknown rider in his second grand Tour event ever, flipping the entire race on its head, taking the yellow jersey from Primus Roglic in one of the most dramatic finishes in Tour history.

And it wasnt just that he won, its how he destroyed the rest of the field and expectations.

On that day.

He didnt just inch Roglic out by a handful of seconds.

He blew the competition away.

It was the kind of performance that transcends the sport and enters into cycling folklore.

And if you thought that 2020 was just a flash in the pan, Pugacha quickly proved he wasnt done.

In 2021, he returned even stronger, becoming only the youngest rider since the 1970s to win back to back Tour de France titles.

His ride was nothing short of a masterclass that year, especially his brutal attacks in the mountains.

But what makes Pugacha truly remarkable is his versatility.

Its not uncommon to see dominant climbers, strong time trialists or fast sprinters, but to see someone excel in all of those aspects, thats really rare.

Pugacha is the ultimate all rounder.

He can dance up the steepest mountains with the best of the climbers, grind out power in time trials like a specialist, and still punch hard in classic style races.

Hes won the Tour de France again this past year in 24 in unbelievable style with out competition.

Hes won some of the monuments like Liege, Bastogne Liege, the Tour of Flanders and more.

And lets not forget his victory at the 2021 Strade Bianchi, where he attacked solo 50 km from the finish and did so, making it look effortless.

Beyond his versatility, its his racing mentality that stands out.

Pugacha doesnt ride defensively or play it safe.

Like so many GC contenders, he races to win from the front, launching attacks that others would hesitate to make.

Rider who creates opportunities, not one who waits for them to come.

His audacious style has reignited the passion for aggressive racing at the highest level.

And crucially, he races with an instinct that's almost impossible to coach.

He reads the race perfectly, knows exactly when to make his move, and when he goes, there's little anyone can do to stop him.

For fans like me, it's this blend of tactical brilliance, physical dominance and fearless racing that has made a pugacha a rider.

I can't take my eyes off.

And on top of it, his demeanor of youthful exuberance and joy, of good sportsmanship when he doesn't win, and even better sportsmanship than he does, he brings an old school flair to a sport that's increasingly dominated by numbers, wattage and marginal gains.

And there's something refreshing about a rider who races on instinct and guts, even as he rides with the legs of a generational talent.

With that little tuft of hair sticking out from his helmet.

In many ways, Pugacha is a throwback to the legends of cycling, riders who could win any race on any terrain.

But with the cutting edge conditioning and preparation of modern sport, we saw that amplified this past weekend when he became the first rider in almost 40 years to win cycling's triple crown, the Giro d'Italia, the Tour de France, and the world championships, all in one season.

And the scary part?

He's still only in his mid twenties.

The dominance we've seen so far could just be the beginning.

So whether you're a hardcore fan of the sport or a newcomer, it's impossible to ignore what Tadi Pugacha is doing.

He's not just winning races, he's redefining what's possible in modern cycling.

We're lucky to witness his career in real time.

In most circumstances, no one really knows when they are in the presence of a mozart or a Picasso until long after they are gone.

If you are still not following the sport of cycling, I urge you to do so and bear witness to a talent of that kind of caliber while you still can and sit back and just Marvel and enjoy.

On the show today, Juliet Hockman and I are going to discuss a popular reel thats been making the rounds on social media for a little while now.

Its a video of the commencement speech that was given by Roger Federer at Dartmouth College a couple of years ago, and in it he speaks rather eloquently on the power of positive thinking to affect performance in sport.

On the medical mailbag, we will look at the science that supports this idea and discuss how we use it as athletes and as coaches to get the best from ourselves and from those who we coach.

That's coming up in just a couple of minutes.

Later, I'm joined by kinesiologist Michel Bond.

Michel has done a lot of research into how to help athletes by leveraging an understanding of how to improve fascial connections.

We are going to discuss what the fascia is, why it's important, and how you can use what she has learned to improve your own injury resilience and recovery.

And that's going to be coming up in just a short while.

Before all of that, I want to take a moment to thank again all of my Patreon supporters of this podcast who have decided that for about the price of a cup of coffee per month, they could sign up to support this program and in doing so, get access to bonus interviews and other segments that come out about every month or so.

The next of those bonus episodes will be released next week and will feature a detailed medical segment on some new research that shows how much efficiency in cycling is unaffected by aging.

This is a surprising finding and has some important implications for all of us as we train and race into our older age groups.

That bonus episode and others like it are available on a private feed for all of my subscribers.

Plus, for north american subscribers who sign up at the ten dollar per month level of support, they receive a special thank you gift in the form of a Boco Tridoc podcast running hat.

So visit my Patreon site today@patreon.com tridoc podcast and become a supporter so that you too can get access to these bonus episodes.

And maybe the cool gift as well.

And as always, thanks so much in advance just for considering.

It'S time again for the medical mailbag, which means I'm joined by my friend and colleague, Juliette Hockman.

Juliet is traveling.

You're in Washington, DC, right?

I am.

I'm here in DC visiting my family.

Yes.

So from one Washington to the other.

And that's right, last time we were about to be.

That's right.

Just a week ago I was in Washington state with you.

Yeah, exactly.

Before we get to the subject at hand, I do want to do some housekeeping.

In the last episode, I interviewed Fiona Moriarty and we were discussing the location of the 2024 world championships for the 70.3 distance.

I was quite adamant, having visited New Zealand previously, my brother, having lived in New Zealand, that the location for this year's world championships is Taupo, New Zealand.

She had said it was taup, new Zealand.

I had never heard it said that way, and I was quite sure assured of myself.

I'm never.

Yeah, exactly.

Longtime listener friend of both of our, Stephanie van Beber reached out to me and said that she too, thought it might be Topah.

And she said every once in a while I might be wrong.

And I said, no, not possible.

But I decided to reach out to an expert.

So here, have a listen.

This is my conversation with New Zealand resident and Akiwi, who's actually also in Washington, DC right now.

Nikki Sweetbrunna.

Nikki, how do you pronounce the name of the city or town where the 70.3 world championships are going to be held this december in New Zealand?

So you are both right.

The correct pronunciation is topaw.

And while I might not think I have an accent, apparently I do.

The best way to explain how to pronounce it is to say to, as in toe on your feet.

And paw, as in paw of a cat.

So if you can say taup, you're pretty much fang on how the local mori pronounce it.

Some of us, like myself and my family, we call it Taupo.

But no one is going to greet you either way you say it.

So when I was there, I never heard Taup.

That was something brand new to me when Fiona mentioned it during our interview.

And in all of the years that I've been referring to the places I visited in New Zealand, I would always say Taupo is Taupo how you and other people in New Zealand will refer to it.

And is that considered an affront?

Do the Maori get or it's not okay?

Absolutely not.

So whether you want to call it Taupo, which I call it Taupo, or you want to call it taup, every way you feel most comfortable is absolutely fine.

There are a lot of place names within New Zealand where you can say them both way.

And I think probably over the last few years, a lot more people are getting more comfortable pronouncing it probably the correct way.

But as I say, no one is going to look at you twice.

And probably the majority of people still call it helper.

So there you have it.

We're both right.

But I definitely owe Fiona an apology.

I'm going to apologize again, Fiona.

I'm so sorry.

But also, I'm going to send her an email to make sure that she hears.

And if I was overly strident in my belief in how it should be said, we have a really interesting subject today.

The subject of the medical mailbag is a Instagram reel that I saw, actually.

It's funny because I saw it after pretty much everybody else did.

And I sent it to you at the time, and I thought, wow, what a great subject for a medical mailbag.

And you agreed that you said you'd seen it.

And that Instagram reel is probably something everybody who is listening to this has seen.

It was the video of Roger Federer giving the commencement speech at Dartmouth.

Was it 2022?

Do you remember what year it was?

I think it was more recently than that because we knew some people in that class.

So I want to say it was 2023.

Okay.

It was within the last couple of years, Roger Federer was giving the commencement address, and he spoke just really beautifully about the power of positive thinking in its ability to influence performance in sport, but also in how it can be adapted to play a role in your everyday life and in your ability to succeed.

And I'm not going to play the whole thing here, but I do want to play what I think is a really important segment and what really got us talking.

So have a listen to it here.

In tennis, perfection is impossible.

In the 1526 singles matches I played in my career, I won almost 80% of those matches.

Now, I have a question for you.

What percentage of points do you think I won in those matches?

Only 54%.

In other words, even top ranked tennis players win barely more than half of the points they play.

When you lose every second point on average, you learn not to dwell on every shot.

You teach yourself to think, okay, I double faulted.

It's only a point.

Okay, I came to the net and I got past again.

It's only a point.

Even a great shot, an overhead backhand smash that ends up on ESPN's top ten playlist, that, too, is just a point.

So here's why I'm telling you this.

When you're playing a point, it has to be the most important thing in the world.

And it is.

But when it's behind you, it's behind you.

This mindset is really crucial because it frees you to fully commit to the next point and the next point after that with intensity, clarity and focus.

The truth is, whatever game you play in life, sometimes you're going to lose a point, a match, a season, a job.

It's a rollercoaster with many ups and downs.

And it's natural when you're down, to doubt yourself and to feel sorry for yourself.

And by the way, your opponents have self doubt, too.

Don't ever forget that.

But negative energy is wasted energy.

So that's really the crux of it.

This idea, I've always.

When I first heard him speak and he talked about this notion that he only won 54% of his points.

I know.

Isn't that incredible?

Just blew me away.

And this idea that the difference between the top players and the players who aren't at the top is just their whole mental attitude, their ability to just play every point like it's the most important point of their career.

But the second it's overdeveloped, you have to move on.

You have to be able to dispense with failure and move on with positive thinking to the next point, no matter what just happened right now.

He referenced this idea that there was a study, and I couldn't find it.

Neither could Cosette Rhodes, who was the intern who worked on this segment.

We were unable to find a study that he was referencing.

And there's another gentleman who is on Instagram who also famously quotes the study, and he actually talks about how he did the study.

He's a psychologist, he's a public speaker, he does a lot of work with athletes.

And he talks about this study in South Florida on professional tennis players in the top 25.

We cannot find a study, and that doesn't mean it wasn't done, just means it wasn't published in the peer reviewed literature.

It also just means I can't comment on it.

But I find myself questioning, at least with tennis players, how much positive thinking can really influence that.

If tennis player like Roger Federer is only going to win 54% of his points in order to win, have a career like he did, what about the bad boys like John McEnroe?

What about Jimmy Connors?

Those guys were notorious for freaking out after losing points.

They did it, I think, not so much because they had a bad attitude, but because they were probably trying to influence the guy on the other side of the court, I'm guessing.

But hang on.

I think that the power of what Federer was saying in the study that he or the so called study that he was referencing wasn't so much the outward behavior that was demonstrated after a poor point or after losing a point.

It was the internal ability to absolutely leave it behind and move on to the next point as the most important point in the game.

So if you lost a point, instead of dwelling on it and oh my gosh, I suck, I'm a bad player, I should have gotten that one.

I failed.

It's more, give me the next one.

I'm powerful, I'm strong, I'm smart, I'm a great player, I'm going to kill the next one.

And I think that and whether or not you agree with sort of McEnroe's poor behavior on the courts, he may have been doing that internally.

In fact, he probably was.

Well, I 100% think there's something to what he's saying.

I guess what I'm pushing back with a little bit is that.

I'll give you an example.

I found some evidence.

I did find one study on tennis players, and this study on tennis players said that mental techniques and positive thinking actually had an impact on the ability of players to get their first serve in.

So when you gave players a sort of, you gave them coaching for positive thinking and they implemented that positive thinking, their first serve percentage went up.

And I thought that was really interesting.

What else can get your first serve percentage up is lowering the serve velocity.

If somebody hits the ball less hard, they can get their first serve percentage 100%, but they're going to get blown out.

Right.

They're going to lose every point.

So great.

They're very positive.

They're going to get a great serve percentage, but that doesn't necessarily translate to winning all the points.

There is definitely the fact that Federer, sure, he's positive mindset.

He's able to deal with his failure, move to the next point, but he's still, still, that he's still Roger Federer.

I think that there's probably more to the fact that he's Roger Federer and that the mindset aspect of it maybe took him to that other level.

I think that his message, though, going away from tennis player, his message of being able to look at failure as something not to beat yourself down on, but rather to grow from and to learn from and also this idea to just leave it behind you and immediately move on to the next thing in a positive mindset.

That to me is something that we can all learn from, not just in sport, but in life.

No, 100%.

And it's interesting.

You and I just came off this wonderful weekend where we had, we raced ourselves and we also had 22 of our athletes there.

And one of the things that I will often counsel athletes on before a big race, particularly if it's their a race and particularly if they're new to racing with lots and lots of people, and it's a much bigger show.

If you go to an Ironman race, for example, or a challenge race, it's a much bigger show than a local race is that something will go wrong.

Right.

It's almost inevitable that in such a complex day as a triathlon, to be a long course triathlon, something will go wrong.

And my advice is identify what the problem is, fix the problem and move on.

It's not going to ruin your day.

It's not going to.

Don't dwell on the problem, don't worry about it.

Don't keep repeating the problem.

Just move on.

Move completely on from it and to whatever the next thing is, task is that you have to do.

And because it's so easy to get derailed mentally and emotionally, particularly if you're newer to the sport, right.

You think, oh, there goes the whole day and I'm terrible.

And you just go down the rabbit hole.

The ability to recover when all of these hiccups happen, which they happen multiple times over a race.

And we see that with the professionals, too, in our sport.

Professionals for athletes as well.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

I think as a coach, one of the things that I try to imbue my athletes with is that kind of adaptability and that kind of attitude of, you know, I've said it on this podcast many times, focus on the things you can control.

Be prepared for all the different eventualities that can come up.

And if they do come up, then you're ready to go.

You've got your plan, and it's not as much of a surprise or a stress, but then also whatever it is, a flat tire is the most common thing, right?

You get a flat on the bike, fine.

You just deal with that problem, you fix it, and then you forget about it.

Because the most common mistake I think athletes make is they think about all the time they lost.

Oh, they exaggerate the time.

They think, oh, it took me 20 minutes to fix that flat when in reality, it was maybe five.

And then they go out on the bike and they blow themselves up trying to make up that 20 minutes time.

And I made that mistake as a newer athlete and recognized.

And so the next time I got a flat, I was like, no, that's time lost.

I can't make up for it.

I need to continue executing the plan that I was on and just that I can't do anything about what's in the past, but I can control how I react and how I move forward.

And that's a good example of how I had a failure, because something came up and I didn't respond well to it, and I blew myself up and didn't have a good race.

And so I.

Instead of taking that failure as a sign that, oh, I'm terrible and I can't do this sport, instead, I looked back at it, and I really took something from it.

I speak of adam all the time.

I'm sorry.

Constantly bringing him up, but I tell adam, after every single race, there's always something you can find in every single race that you could have done better.

No matter if it's your pr race, no matter what it is, there's always something.

Find something in the race that you think that you could have done better from.

Don't dwell in it, but learn from it.

And then look for.

And then in a race where you don't think it went, it's not your favorite race, there's always something positive you can find.

So I tell them, find the positive thing, dwell on that, find the negative thing, learn from that, and move forward.

And I try to tell my athletes all the same kinds of things.

I found some evidence to show that this positive thinking actually works, and I think it's worth discussing just briefly.

One of the studies comes out of iranian taekwondo athletes, which is an interesting subset of athletes.

Unfortunately, its a very small study, but the findings were pretty interesting.

And basically, the takeaways from this study was pretty simple.

It was that of many different traits that they looked at trying to imbue these athletes with optimism was the only one significantly associated with vo two peak and heart rate max.

They could actually see vo two peak go up and heart rate max go up, and social skills and control were correlated with relative peak power.

So if you improved athletes ability to have good social lives, and let's face it, triathletes are very social people and being able to control their circumstances.

So focusing on the things you can control, like I just said.

So now, very small study, only ten athletes in the study.

So it's hard to really know what to take out of it.

But I think it's a really interesting finding that again, as you and I have both talked about, your mental outlook as you go into competition, as you go into training is so important.

I've talked about my own experiences.

You've talked about yours.

Tell us about what one of the sort of big things you took away.

I know you've talked a lot about your experience as a rower and the importance of the boathouse.

What are some of the things that the boathouse gave you for being able to cope with setbacks and being able to focus on positivity?

The thing that we've said several times already is just understand what you can control and what you can't control, and the things you can control.

Work on those elements the very best you can.

So that when you go into, whether it's a rowing race or a triathlon, you feel that you are as best possible prepared as you can be for that day, for that event, on that day, right.

And what I tell my athletes, and I constantly tell myself, and we've talked about this as well, is you want to be standing in that swim shoe, really believing in your heart of hearts that you've done everything you possibly could to get there right, to be there healthy, and to be there fast and fit and everything else, given whatever life was throwing at you in the preceding six months.

And then you want to get to the finish line believing that you did absolutely everything you could in the previous whatever it is, four and a half, five and a half, six and a half hours to execute the very best race you could, given the circumstances that the day gave you.

And I think we can both talk about our experiences.

Last Sunday, you came burning by me with 1 mile to know on that run and I knew you were giving it everything you could so that you could feel really satisfied as you came across the finish line.

You were as far up that podium as you could be.

Similar to me.

I had a very similar experience, and we both made mistakes during the race.

My mistake, I actually took a wrong turn on the ride.

I was riding completely by myself.

There wasn't anybody around me.

Incredibly lonely out there.

I lost on space, and I turned right when I should have gone straight.

And so for about 10 seconds, I'm like, wow, juliette, that was a ridiculously stupid thing to do.

Wake up.

Come on.

I think I even yelled at myself.

Come on, get with me.

Got myself back on course, let myself ride hard for about the time I'd lost, which is probably 20 seconds, and then settled back in and finished the race.

It's having the confidence that things will go wrong, and you can handle them when they go wrong.

And solving the problem when you're in it and just not letting it rock.

Your day, that's one of the things I've.

That's one of the things I've learned from you, that.

That idea of making sure when you show up on the start that you feel satisfied that you did everything you could have.

And that was something that, for a long time, I would show up on start lines just.

And I don't do that anymore now.

I don't miss workouts.

If I miss a workout, it's because, like, I did this week or where I have Covid and I just physically was unable to do a workout.

But otherwise, I will do what I have to make sure that I get my workouts in and without impact.

I do what I need to make sure.

When I say that, I want to be clear.

I'm not saying I'm going to do my workouts at the expense of any.

Everything else.

What I'm doing is I am making sure that I accommodate for the fact that I have a workout, and I know it's important to me, and I'm going to get it done around all my other responsibilities.

And that was something that was really impactful the first time you said that to me, and it added to the mental strategies that I have.

I want to always show up at a race, and I want to always be standing there in the start confident that I did everything I could.

I was going to say, let's be really clear here.

That doesn't mean your preparation is perfect.

I mean, going into the race last weekend, because of injuries, my run was completely undercooked.

But it was the best I could do, given what I was working with at the time.

You know, maybe once in our life, we all get to put together a race where our preparation is perfect as well as executing all the pieces.

But ren, talking about just given the circumstances that you're.

Given, that you did everything you possibly could.

So.

And your reference to my, like, going as hard as I could in the last mile is, again, from learning from failures.

I have called you from races where I was passed in the last 500 meters and ended up losing a podium spot by less than a second.

And I have learned the hard way that I just do not want to ever have that happen because I didn't give everything in the last little bit.

That's how I approach all my races unless I have the information that I have a big gap or anything like that, which I did not have in this case.

And, yeah, so there's some other stuff here that I think is worthwhile reviewing.

We found a study that talked about effects of psychological and psychosocial interventions on sport performance.

This is a meta analysis of 35 different papers looking at psychological and psychosocial interventions and whether or not they actually were impactful on athletes and their performance.

And basically it found that there really is a very strong correlation, not clear causation, but a very strong correlation showing a positive effect.

When you have these kinds of interventions, when you get athletes, when you give athletes tools to be positive, to have means of dealing with failures, we're calling them failures, but maybe not setbacks.

Setbacks.

Thank you.

Then they do better overall.

But what I found most interesting in this study, the most interesting finding, was who it was that was the most effective provider of those interventions.

It wasn't practitioners like sports psychologists.

It wasn't researchers, it wasn't the individuals or equipment managers.

It was coaches.

Coaches like you and me.

It was when the coaches who provided the athletes with the strategies, the athletes really took them in most efficiently, most effectively, and actually had the best success, which I thought was pretty darn fascinating, and goes again to reinforce the importance of having a coach, of having a coach who believes in you and who is going to teach you how to do all of these different mental skills of things like visualization, things like rehearsals, things like.

We talked, when I spoke to Daya Grant, we talked about getting into flow state and clutch state, and how you can practice those kinds of things in your training.

These are all skills that coaches can provide you with and that Juliette provides her athletes with.

And I work with my athletes on in order to try and give our athletes the best chances of success.

I feel like we, a few minutes ago, moved away a little bit from the topic of conversation that we want this discussion to pursue in that what the center talk was really talking about was even in the face of losing points, in the face of these many failures that take place throughout the tennis match, of returning to that positive internal voice, that the next point will be better, that I am a good athlete, that I'm a good tennis player, that I can win this, that I'm better than my opponent, whatever.

And I think that those very visceral voices, if you will, that have to exist in an athlete's head.

They come from the athlete.

Yes.

They can also come from a coach.

Absolutely.

I think you and I both had the experience through our athletic career where we see a workout or we, our coach tells us what they expect our race performance is going to be, and we're like, I can't push those watts, or I can't run that fast, or whatever there is.

And then, of course, we do.

And that, of course, belief comes from the coach and the coach basically holding us up to a standard that we didn't know we could attain.

And by having someone else tell us, we begin to believe it.

And I know that I've certainly told athletes, yes, you can do a 70.3, and they'll say, no, I can't.

I've only ever done a sprint, and I said, no, in six months you can do a 70.3, let's sign up for one, or whatever it is, putting that out there saying, yes, I believe you, athlete can do what's.

And then they begin to believe it, and they believe it more and more.

Right?

So there is the belief that comes from externally, where a coach's voice is saying, yes, you can do this goal, whatever it is.

But I think that the bulk of this really does have to come from the athlete.

And I do think it is, maybe part of it is internally learned, but I also think it is a learned skill on how to push yourself along when things don't go right.

We've talked about this before on this podcast about having that kind of mental toolkit of, this is what I'm going to say to myself when my goggles get knocked off, or when I'm way off the pack, or when I'm under shooting my power, or when my run paces off, or when someone comes find me who I know is in my age group, this is what I'm going to say to myself.

And being able to rummage around in that bag of tricks and come out with.

I have all kinds of things that I say to myself that are raised and some of them are worse.

To say them outside of racist situation are ridiculous.

Right?

They sound absurd.

And I remember learning this as a young rower, as a young Olympian.

I would say things to myself that, again, were absurd within the context.

But in the moment you believe them and it inspires you and it moves you along and it takes you to the next level and it has you continuing to believe that, get out of my way.

I'm coming for you.

Get out of my way.

Yeah.

And that, I think, is what.

And maybe whether you're competing for a podium spot or not, maybe you're just.

You just need to keep going on the run.

It might be a slightly different voice, but it is.

I am powerful, I am strong, I am kicking ass.

I am feeding these hills for breakfast.

I am whatever it is.

But athletes have to practice that and have to have that.

It doesn't just happen.

Right?

And I think we're saying the same thing.

I think all I was saying was that in some cases, I know for myself, I've developed some of these things by myself.

Some of the mantras I have came from me, but a lot of it has come from external places.

Some of it has come from coaches.

Some of it has come from my, my friends who, like yourself and Benny and Kelly, who are such phenomenal successes, who I learn from by hearing what you tell yourself.

And I start doing that, I start picking up those habits.

Hanging around with other people who are amazing athletes really rubs off.

So I think that and having a coach who has succeeded and has done well, I think also is really helpful if you want to succeed, because then you can learn from what they've done.

And it doesn't mean that you have to want to be a world champion.

It doesn't mean that you have to want to get on the podium, but you could still benefit from learning how to incorporate some of those skills because it will help you achieve whatever your goals are.

And I guess that's all I was saying, because exactly like you're saying, you have to practice them.

You have to practice positive thinking in your everyday life.

You have to practice it.

Finding those failures, those little micro failures that happen and learning to see them as opportunities.

And every time you see it as an opportunity, as a way to grow and get better, you've succeeded.

And you're just going to make yourself propel along that pathway towards the goal that you have.

You know, there's another wonderful story, another wonderful penetrated story that I learned.

So Serena Williams, I don't know if she's still coached or exactly what time period she was coached by this french guy named Patrick.

His last name is unusual, so I don't remember it, but his name was Patrick.

He was a french guy.

And I guess there was one Wimbledon, and Serena was playing incredibly badly and every time she came to net, she lost the point.

And so she's getting extremely frustrated.

And between matches, her coach in this, if you can imagine this, with sort of a french accent and the whole thing she said, he said, serena, I'm watching you play, and every time you come to met, I just sit back in my chair and relaxed and I know you're going to win the point.

And Serena looks at him and says, really?

I thought I was blowing it.

Every time I came to net, I thought I was losing all the points to net.

I'm so frustrated.

He goes, no, every time you come to net, the percentages are unbelievable.

You're winning the huge number of points where you come to net.

Of course, next game, next match, Serena goes out.

She comes to net more often.

She's killing it pretty much all the time she comes to net, she's winning the point.

And it was just, again, that sort of affirmation even.

Oh, and then the interviewer says to this guy, this coach Patrick.

So you lied to her.

And of course, you have to imagine this french guy going, was it a lie?

I don't know.

It's a wonderful interview.

But again, it was, this guy told her he believed in her and she was a great tennis player and she's a good net player.

And the next game she went out and believed it herself.

Did a phenomenal job.

So again, whether it's an external voice or there's an internal voice, there's a lot of power in believing in your own strength and power and confidence and everything else.

Yeah, that's a great anecdote.

I want to leave it there because I think starting with tennis, ending with tennis, it's a good little bow to put on it.

This has been another great topic of conversation.

We have listener submitted questions coming up on the next couple of medical mailbags.

But if you have a question that you would like to have us answer on the medical mailback, I hope that you'll send it in to us.

You can email me at tri docloud.com, or you can join the private Facebook group for this podcast.

You can search for Tridoc podcast on that platform, answer the three easy questions.

I will grant you.

Admittance and you could submit your questions there or just join the conversation.

What did you think about this segment?

What do you think about the show in general?

All of those things are fair game in that private group.

Juliette, thanks so much for joining me.

Enjoy the rest of your vacation and we will chat again on the next medical mailbag in a couple of weeks.

Thank you Jeff.

Looking forward to it.

My guest on the podcast today is Michelle Bond.

Michelle is a kinesiologist who has been serving clients since 1999 and is at the top of her field by no other means than hard work, study and gaining the trust of the over 1200 clients that she's worked with.

She holds a master's degree in kinesiology from the University of Texas with advanced coursework in sports psychology and cardiovascular disease.

She's a published researcher in the area of strength and connective tissue and is a fascia Research society author and contributor.

Michelle is a NASM that I believe is the north american sports medicine.

Is that correct, Michelle?

National association of Sports Medicine.

I was so close.

Certified Corrective Academy certified corrective exercise specialist and holds a level two fascia specialist certification from the international team of researchers.

She uses her proprietary movement assessment and corrective exercise system to program exercise for people who are truly looking to connect, ha, no pun intended, with how their body works and stick to a lifetime of healthy movement.

It's my pleasure to introduce Bond, Michelle Bond as my guest today.

Michelle, thanks so much for being here on the Tri Dog podcast.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate this opportunity you gave me.

Thank you for that wonderful introduction.

I want to begin first just with this whole notion of fascia.

I think that a lot of my listeners will probably be familiar with the concept or the word, but they probably don't really know what it means.

So help my listeners understand what fascia is and why they should care.

That is great idea, because out in the mainstream arena there are some great definitions and some are very less weighted, let's say, and I will just say this to your listeners, you're going to be on the upside of knowledge here.

In fact, there's a nomenclature committee right now, meaning we are continuing to develop the definition of fascia in real time.

So what does that mean for all of us?

It means that some disciplines include some structures because they're anatomists and surgeons, and other people include other definitions or philosophies because they are movement practitioners or hands on practitioners.

So for us today, we're going to include things like ligaments, tendons.

It's this unified web.

I guess I should say tensional system that I'll describe later that surrounds and penetrates every single thing.

So that's nerves, vessels, bone, muscle, your organs, everything.

And so the idea is we're going to include those structures again, the definition, you'll see if you read research or listen to different practitioners, there are different definitions based on the kind of practice they are involved in.

So for us, as movement people or people enjoying exercise and sport, we have to include this.

This whole idea of, even though ligaments and tendons have a different definition to some people, we are going to include that because that is a part of the system.

So, again, it's this ubiquitous system, this tensional net through the entire body.

Yeah, I think of it as a connective tissue that kind of binds all the stuff together.

That kind of holds everything within the organism from just being otherwise a gelatinous mess.

Is that kind of a way of thinking about it?

Yes, and that's a great point, because there's two main layers, the superficial layer, which is becoming all the rage now, but we're not going to deal with that right now.

We're dealing with the deeper layer.

So there's.

Within the deeper layer, there's this layer that's right under the superficial layer and some fat layers that is like this elastic, as they.

The researchers call it, the elastic bodysuit.

So it is connecting us from head to toe with this connection.

Not just connection for movement, like movement and force transmission.

Okay?

But under that suit, then you have the layers of fascia that are invested in the muscle and other structures.

So the deeper layer, to me, as a movement professional, is divided into sort of two different layers in that deeper layer.

So we can talk about that suit and then what's going on with the muscle and bone.

All right?

So, as athletes, why do we need to know about this?

Why do we need to even bother?

Why is it important?

Oh, this is my favorite part.

To start, I did a presentation about the embryology of fascia.

So it's truly muscle's partner.

And as athletes and recreational enthusiasts, we think about muscle and how our bones are maybe.

But this fascial concept truly is muscles partner within, let's say, five or six days in your mother's womb.

Yes.

We're going all the way back there.

There's this spewing of fine web, and that is the beginning of the fascia system.

And guess what?

The muscle tissue grows into that layer or that direction.

So what I say to people is, if it's that important, then it's got to be that important here in our bodies as adults or young adults out there in the world doing exercise.

So it truly is muscles partner, and it's.

And conditioning it separately is very important.

Now, you cannot separate muscle and fascia, but the idea is to perform certain movements with certain load in a certain way to address just the fascia, because it truly helps muscle.

It's not muscle that's necessarily stretching.

It's the fascial component.

And when it's conditioned, it helps with force transmission.

So let's say you're a runner, you're swimming, you're biking, your triathlon, and let's say, in your thigh muscle, the actual spindles of muscle fiber do not reach from one joint to the other.

What's helping is that fascial net, that communication within the muscle.

So it's truly helping force production.

That's why I think it's so important.

Okay, so you talked about how we have to condition the fascia as much as we are conditioning the muscle.

What can somebody do in order to do that?

The thing is, like I said, you can't separate the two tissues.

You just cannot.

But it's the load or the type of movement.

So, for example, something that fascia responds to.

I call it different categories of movement.

So we have maybe slow, deep foam rolling for hydration.

We think of.

There's fast foam rolling that you would do prior to competition to wake up the sensory or proprioception where you are in space and help with circulation.

Okay.

Deeper, slow rolling with directional changes is for hydration.

Okay, that's.

People are familiar with foam rolling.

And I can answer more questions about that if you want to, but types of movement.

So let's say I want to increase the elastic capability of my fascia.

Something you could do is light hopping.

People will say, but I'm using my muscle.

I'm still using my muscle.

Yes, you are using your muscle.

Okay.

But the idea is to get in tune with what this collagenous tissue can do for this spring like motion.

So there's certain categories of movement, whether it's sensory refinement, slowing movement down this spring like quality, with different exercises you can do, there's slow directional changes.

So, for example, instead of just standing in a calf stretch like we do for 30 to 40 seconds, there's other techniques to embellish this tissue, whether it's holding at the end range of motion and doing slight pulsing movements.

There's different kind of receptors in the fascia.

So you want to do movements that stimulate all these kinds of receptors.

When you're stretching, for example, instead of just one muscle, we want to stretch in long muscle chains.

We want to perform fluid movements that are elegant.

Now, you're wondering, where can I get all this information?

Hopefully, by the end of August, I will have my fascial program done and ready for you to take a look at, because, again, you can't separate the tissue.

But I just finished doing a ten week mentorship with some of the researchers, and there's different categories of movement that embellish and accentuate how this, this tissue can operate optimally.

So while phone rolling and static stretching and warming up is good, there are some other categories of movement that can be performed, and they don't take a lot of time.

That's the beauty of it.

So it sounds to me, like you said, you can't separate muscle from the fascia.

You can't separate fascia from the muscle, but you can accentuate the benefits to the fascia by doing a different kind of movement, different kind of activity that is going to accentuate the benefits to the fascia, even though you're still using the muscle.

And I heard you mention hopping, and I've heard a couple of different times, people advocating things like jump rope, that jumping rope is a really good activity that not only benefits the muscles, but also is one of these activities that, from listening to you, is, I'm guessing, could be one of those things that could benefit tendons and ligaments and also some of these fascial components.

Be an accurate assessment?

Absolutely.

It's just, the thing is, it's increasing load over time.

So I just, this is so perfect timing.

I finished this mentorship because we were talking about hopping or jumping rope.

When you get to a point where you start feeling your calf muscle, stop, because now you're using muscle and not the recoil property of the fascia.

So that means don't jump rope for half an hour, do it for literally 30 seconds or a minute, and work your way up to this place where you can be light and springy.

I once did this on a treadmill, training for a marathon where I got my brain into my Achilles tendon and my calf muscle, and I said, stop contracting, be light and springy.

And the only way that you can practice that is to literally do that thing.

So it's something that takes practice, but the muscle, when walking, like for walking, running a little bit, but walking especially, you're using more of the elastic properties of the fascia, not so much the muscle contraction.

So this is an idea you can use?

Yeah, no, I got you.

And then what about for recovery?

You mentioned that it's important to help the fascia.

Just the way we do with muscles.

A massage, for example, is, I'm assuming, one of those things that you can do.

What are things that you could do to accentuate recovery of the fascia after.

A hard effort, hands on therapy will always be number one, especially from somebody who understands the delicate layers of the superficial fascia and deep fascia.

A lot of times, people will say, I'm so sore.

Dig in.

Oh, the research is showing, no, don't dig in.

Hands again.

Hands on therapy, whether it's massage or other.

I will also be an advocate for acupuncture, because one of the main researchers who works at the Harvard Alternative Medical School there, she's not only MD, but she's an acupuncturist.

And she did some fabulous research showing that when the acupuncture needle is in, the fascia jumps and grabs onto the needle.

Pretty cool.

So that is this circulatory effect.

If you do not have access to that, then the next best thing would be tools like a foam roller.

If you're not able to get on the ground, a lot of times you can use, I use a spiky massage ball against the wall with some of my clients, or they're on a table and they have their leg up on a table using the ball.

But for the sake of discussion here, we'll talk about the foam roller.

And that's when I mentioned earlier, was the.

This deeper, slow phone rolling.

It's, I'm going to say my very famous line, everyone knows, or you'll know now, annoyingly slow.

So if you're foam rolling the calf, let's just take that for an example.

From the ankle towards the knee, not under the knee, but just the belly of the calf.

What you're trying to do is go one direction, especially there, because there's one way valves, and we just want to go one way.

And you're literally going super slow rolling left to right, and that is it.

You're going to do that only one time and leave maybe two to three days in between that body part.

Because what we're finding is that type of pressure is very similar to hands on therapy.

And we found in the lab that there's collagen degradation, meaning it's going away.

The collagen is being degraded in the body, and in that area, it needs a chance to build that up back up.

So that would be a very direct way to recover in terms of direct input through pressure.

Other recovery would be, as you probably always tell your clients as well, drinking plenty of good, clean water, actual rest.

Or it could be, if you are really sore because you overloaded it, which I can talk about.

Eccentric training and what that does to fascia.

Don't sit all day long.

Try to just move.

My first marathon was a dare.

Okay.

I trained one week.

That's it.

I did all 26 miles.

I could only walk 1.1 mile an hour on the treadmill for five days, but I didn't sit down.

That's what your fascia wants.

Unless you are severely injured and the doctor says, sit, but generally speaking, do not sit.

This is a huge thing for recovery.

You gave me a lot to think about there, and it all got jammed in my frontal lobe trying to decide how to respond.

So the foam rolling.

I think we all know that kind of discomfort from the foam roller, and you're giving us license to not do it every day, which I think we are all going to be very happy about.

So only to do it once every two to three days, because that discomfort we're feeling is genuine.

The foam roller is not the most comfortable thing to be doing, and there's a reason for that.

I'm getting the sense it's because we're actually causing some almost damage, if you will, to the fascia, which is necessary for rebuilding it to be stronger.

Is that an accurate kind of statement, actually?

What sort of.

If you're training too hard, the fascia is going to respond in a negative way, which means it's natural to overtrain or try something too soon in loading, let's just say.

But the foam rolling, I'm glad you brought that up.

The foam rolling shouldn't be painful.

If it is, you got to either lighten up or get a different roller.

Or if you only have a super hard roller, put a towel.

This is what is going on.

If you are in pain when you're rolling, what's going to happen is some of those receptors that deal with pain are going to get called on into action.

We do not want to ask them to be in pain all the time.

We want to suppress that nose deception.

We need to suppress that.

We don't want to knock on its door.

So phone rolling.

When I first started doing that with people in 2004, people were turning purple, and we thought, oh, this is great.

It's not.

It needs to be comfortable.

Even the slower rolling.

If you come upon an area that is particularly painful, you would pause and then maybe do a little shearing motion, like back and forth.

I call it the cheese grater.

But, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

We do not want excessive, uncomfortable.

Yeah, the cheese grater doesn't sound any more comfortable than the foam roller.

I know what you mean, but, yeah, I don't know anybody who thinks the foam roller is particularly a comfortable implement.

But it's an interesting idea to do it in a way that makes it more comfortable.

And then what else can we do to try and maintain a healthy fascia?

You've mentioned some ways to strengthen it, to make it more robust, to help it recover.

You mentioned drinking adequate amounts of water.

Is there anything else that we could do to try and encourage a healthy fascia?

Because again, I really, this thought of how it works in conjunction with our muscles, and I know for myself I definitely can think of the tendon to the ligament, to the muscle, to the fascia within the muscle, as all one big unit.

We think that we're training our muscles when, of course, we're training that entire unit together all at once.

But when we're actually training for endurance and consuming oxygen and dealing with energy, that's truly the muscle cells.

But we need to really consider ways to make the fascia healthier.

So what are things that we could do just on a day to day basis besides just better nutrition and hydration?

Is there anything that we can be thinking about on a day to day basis to try and encourage just an overall improvement in our fascial health?

Yes.

First, think about it.

Look at a book, look at some type of picture about it, and get it in your mind of what it really is.

And then understand that it's thinking on your behalf 24/7 so every position you're in on a long airplane flight, you will get up, try to sit in the aisle.

Okay.

What happens is when we sit too long, the collagen fibers actually start to go.

This person is in this position.

We need to support it.

That's why when you get up out of a chair, out of.

If you've been in a meeting or a long movie or whatever, for 3 hours, you feel creaky, maybe.

And so when you condition your fascia, you'll feel less creaky getting out of these long situations.

So your job, besides doing all this other stuff I mentioned, is think about it.

It is thinking on your behalf 24/7 its output is only as good as its input.

So if you're carrying a backpack, if you're carrying a child, if you're pushing groceries, if you're filling a gas tank, if whatever it is, your fascia is thinking about this posture.

Just also try to be more elegant in your everyday life.

I know on social media I have a few posts of me dancing in the kitchen.

Rather than clumping to the refrigerator and clumping over here, I put myself, let me print over to the refrigerator and then print sounds silly.

I'm gonna be 55 in a few days, and I'm telling you, I feel 30 years younger.

I'm not kidding.

I feel springy in my body suit.

All of these researchers are well into their sixties and some in their seventies, and they can do way more than I can.

So it's about thinking, visualizing this springy bodysuit.

Even if you don't think you're elegant in moving in everyday life, just think it and move that way.

Whether it's reaching to turn on a light instead of going, ah, turn on the light.

Reach slowly maybe, and turn on the light maybe just once a day.

It's the thought.

First, it's believing in yourself.

Second, you can do this.

And third, it's everything that you do all day long because it's always thinking.

So it's really being intentional with movement.

It's being intentional with movement, avoiding being static for long periods of time.

You mentioned try not to sit for too long.

All of that resonates with me, and all of that makes a lot of sense, especially as we get older.

I think we all feel that the longer we stay seated, that, like you said, the creakiness as we get up.

And I really like that idea of trying to be more elegant in our movements.

I know also as we get older, when sudden movements tend to have negative consequences much more frequently.

And I think if you can be intentional about your movements, you probably go a long way towards avoiding those kinds of adverse effects or adverse kinds of unintentional kinds of things.

Being intentional in thought and intentional and purpose probably goes a long way towards helping all of this and helping you be able to stay healthy and be able to continue to do the things that we love and keep moving.

And as you said, be youthful, both in body and mind.

Yes, it's just try different types of movements.

Don't.

Like I said, the kitchen dancing thing everybody loved, or getting in the car, you're getting in it slowly, reaching for the door.

It makes a difference.

Take a dance class.

That's what I tell all triathletes.

Once in a while, move in all the directions and stay springy.

We hear a lot about yoga, and I'm curious on your opinion of yoga.

Is yoga a positive thing or potentially negative?

I personally, I'm agnostic.

I know a lot of people love yoga.

I have not.

I just don't.

My own time limitations have prevented me from being able to incorporate it.

But I have given a lot of thought to trying to get it involved, especially this office season that's going to come up in the fall.

I don't want to think about the fall.

I'm enjoying the summer.

But anyways.

But anyways, what are your thoughts about yoga as a means of supporting fascial health?

Yoga has been included very often in all of our research papers and textbooks.

Now, in my interpretation of yoga is there's several kinds of yoga.

Some is very fast paced, which is great because it's just moving you in different positions.

You should do it at your pace and at your depth of range of motion.

But if we're going to talk about what a lot of people think of slow melting yoga, it depends on the person.

If we think about stretching or holding poses, we have to think about while there's a lot of research about yoga and where it actually comes from as a discipline, not just physically, but mentally, and some spiritually, and anytime you hold a pose or stretch, you're still inputting to the body.

So if you're stretching an area that shouldn't be stretched, then what's happening is you're taking away that optimal push and pull.

I forgot to mention that already, biotensegrity, it's this optimal push and pull in the body.

So if you become too supple in one area, that might restrict how much strength you can build, either in that area or another area.

So I think if you're getting into slow, melty stretches, go in with the idea that you're going to go into it conservatively.

And for people that do it that are already really bendy, I would try to do those poses for more clearing the mental space and hold a stretch if we were going to categorize the load.

I'm working on that right now with the research project.

Is categorizing the load at a three or four on the stretch scale out of ten.

So you're feeling it, but not really.

The only way to really know what you should be stretching is to have a biomechanical assessment.

That's something I do.

So yoga, as far as being around other people and getting in different positions of the body, I think is great.

Just don't overdo it and don't do anything that causes discomfort.

And if you're already bendy, be aware of that.

Just understand you don't want to get extra bendy.

The epitome of flexibility is not being able to do the splits or have seated with your legs wide and your whole chest can go to the floor.

That's great.

But that's not the epitome of, say, we all have to attain that to be great athletes.

That's not true.

All right, I think that's a perfect place to close as opposed to being open.

As you mentioned, Michelle Bond is a kinesiologist who specializes in the research and assessment of connective tissue, specifically the fascia, and talks, or has her own proprietary movement assessment and corrective exercise system that she works with both athletes and non athletes.

And I am going to put links to where you could find Michelle and all of the things that she has done in this vein and you'll be able to find that in the show notes Michelle Bond thank you so much for joining me on the Tridar podcast today for this very interesting and I think enlightening conversation.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

What's up everybody?

My name is Joe Wilson and I'm a proud supporter of the Tri Dark podcast.

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